Degrowth with Andrew, Part 1

Andrew talks with Robert and Mia about the history of Degrowth, and what it offers as an alternative to the cancerous logic of perpetual economic expansion.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, good night, Hello, and welcome.
So it could happen here. It is three pm in
the winter, so it's all of those at once over here.
That is true. That is true. It just seven cords here.
It's regular evening time. Yeah, no winter included, you know,

(00:29):
just rain and hot that's the two moods of the weather. Yeah.
Which winter is it right now? Is did rain winter
or hot winter? Neither? There's no winter winters never. Well,
I hope that winter never comes to the island. If
it does, I think will be in some deep ship,

(00:50):
you know. If you guys get snow. It's time Frestle
to reevaluate our practices when they happen. Absolutely, that means
the parrots have migrated to Alaska. Ok. Ahead, they do
a lot of movements around the evening time, so I
wouldn't be surprised if they decided to pack up and

(01:13):
leave us all behind. Well, this is it could happen here,
as as you might be aware. A podcast about things
falling apart, and today's episode is brought to us by
Andrew Hello of the Youtue Journal Andrewism. Just avoid confusion
with other Andrews, you know, abuse Yeah, that's right, son

(01:38):
of the Queen. Yeah. You know you can talk about
Prince Andrew, you can talk about and your teeth. You know,
it's like distinguished myself, you know. Yeah, you're the best, Andrew.
I appreciate that anytime, buddy. So I'd like to spend
some time today tonight what is time really and to
talk about the concept of d group, you know, where

(02:00):
it comes from, what it means, what it needs, and
a lot other fun stuff. Are you guys familiar with
the growth as as a concept? Yeah, a little bit. Yeah,
I mean, and it's yeah, I I please, please, I mean,
it's one of those things that gets a lot of
like uh flak on one hand for people saying that

(02:21):
it's basically eco fascism, and then you have folks being like, no,
it's a it's a perfectly reasonable response to the kind
of endless growth attitude that got us into the environmental
catastrophe we're currently experiencing. That's yeah. I think that UM
haven't released a video on de growth last week, and

(02:45):
having read through some of the comments have received, I've
come to the conclusion that there's no getting through to
some people. Yeah. People, people love to listen to like
a third of what you say and then get really
angry at what they think you said. Every time we

(03:06):
talk about like the value of of things like you know,
the four Thieves Vinegar Collective, you know, hacking different medicines
or training people being medics. Somebody hops on the subret
and said, I think it's kind of able. Is that
they think that, you know, people can replace doctors with
with street medics. No one, no one's ever made that case.
That that's not a thing that anyone has ever said.

(03:26):
I'm going to make it my entire life mission to
only specifically make this case some gauze and water in
a bag. Yeah, yeah, doctors, but they must all die
when the revolution comes. They will only be replaced the
street that X. It's gonna be great. I'm texting all
of this to our friends Covet right now. Dr Hda. Yeah,

(03:48):
it's just it's just ridiculous. So people would literally project
what they think you said onto what you actually said.
It's very very obvious when it's taken place. I don't
know how they don't feel embarrassed. You know, a lot
of times I barely comment on things, I barely respond
to things, and when I do I check and recheck
and re check what the person has said. Then I

(04:08):
check and recheck and recheck what I see before I
get the statement, because I don't know how do not
feel embarrassed? Yeah, like everybody who has watched the video conceded.
You haven't watched it. It's just had like a term
search and then appeared and yeah and like that. Yeah,

(04:28):
come to engage you pretty much pretty much. But I mean,
if I were to be asleep for the algorithm, I
would say all that engagement helps, right, Yeah, yeah, I'm
sure it does. It helps. It helps one thing for sure, Yeah,
and help get up to a better place. Unfortunately, And
speaking of things that do not help us get to

(04:48):
a better place, I think it's the growth primarily is
about confronting this destructive ideology of growth. Is m know,
something we see all around us, something we interact with
a failure regular basis. You see the images of the
Amazon rainfor us being cut down to be um, turning

(05:10):
into soy farms until eventually it's made into a cattle
grease in fields. You talk about the constant expansion of
oil infrastructure. You talk about the constant expansion of mining operations.
You talk about the continued rise of fast fashion, that
people are extremely defensive whenever you try to criticize it.

(05:32):
All of these systems, all of these industries, all of
these practices uh part of part and parcel, or rather
products of this ideology of growthism that capitalism is driven by.
And I know it may be strange for some people

(05:53):
to sort of the program from this idea of growth
is like a aulterated could uncontroversially positive because you know,
natures like all about growth, right. You know, when you
think of growth, you think of a plant speaking out
to the soil. You think of a baby kitten growing

(06:14):
up to be a cat. You talk about like babies
becoming toddlers, becoming young children, becoming older children becoming you know,
tweens and teens and then finally adults and then from
there Joe Biden, Um, but you know, there's this whole
idea of growth, and that growth is like a natural

(06:36):
part of life. Not as true, but growth in life
does not go on and on and on and on.
You know, organisms grew up to a certain point and
then they maintain a healthy equilibrium, or at least they
try to. Um. Of course, health is not necessarily a
natural state of affairs, because viruses are just as natural

(06:56):
as the cells they attack. And then you can also
get all uh femeral and talk about postal growth and
our life is a constant journey of personal growth and whatever.
But speaking materially, we can physically, growth has a limit.
People grow up to certain height, certain size, and so on,

(07:17):
and when growth doesn't stop, that's when we start running
into problems. As I understand, the reason that cancer is
so difficult to cure is because your own body turning
against you. It's your it's some of the many trillions
of your own cells deciding okay, time to just grow
and grow and grow without limit. And what happens in

(07:39):
most of those cases, and many of those cases rather unfortunately,
people die as a result. Say our bodies and our
own bodies. We understand that growth is not always positive,
and yet that's sick. Logic of growth for its own
sake is exactly what the global economy relies on. So

(08:01):
that's just think that's too much growth, too much money,
too much stuff. And you have all these wealthy nations
to continue to expand and grow and attempt to hoard.
I heard one person use the analogy a Camemberhood was
UM talking about how capitalism is now attempting to the
new frontiers. For capitalism is to expand and colonize our
own minds, UM. And so every economy, every sector, every

(08:26):
industry is expected to keep growing, keep growing, keep growing,
no matter what. One of the responses that I got
on my video on the growth is that, oh, well,
you're seeing that growth is this improwth? Isma is this
capitalist thing? But you know, China and USS are and

(08:47):
they grew and they industrialized, and they are just as
susceptible to ecological destruction and as any other capitalist country.
And that is true, but that's also out of why
I would consider those countries to be UM state capitalist
projects UM and not anything close to what our envisioned.

(09:11):
But of course, the moment you introduce any idea that
sounds even vaguely socially oriented, even vaguely ecologically oriented, UM,
people automatically assume you're trying to go for like new
United Soviet socialist Republic. But I think we need to

(09:36):
explore different paths to improve in quality of life, to
code and code developing. And that's a tricky subject I'll
get into a bit later, But we need to think
of way as that we can help people and help
people live better lives without relying on desperating the bias fare.

(10:00):
It's a tricky conversation to be had um because when
people think of growth, they think if it as a positive,
and when you criticize that positive, they think the inverse.
They think, you're trying to make everybody degrade and go
down to like a worst quality of life, to rush
back to to like a lower life expectancy, what transform

(10:25):
a mode of production back to like hunting and gathering.
But the truth is that deep growth as a movement
as system of thought is more so about trying to
find that balance between a good quality of life for all,

(10:46):
not just this unequal quality of life that we see
around the world and the capitalism while also balancing the
fact that we live in material world. We live on
a planet that has limited resources. When to balance those resources,
we need to consider and be good stewards of, you know,

(11:08):
uh planet that we share with other living creatures. Capitalism
really is driven by this ideology of growthism because it
is structurally incentivized structurally as a structural imperative in the
capitalist system. It's not exclusively driven by greed, as some

(11:33):
people assume. I think that's that that this idea that
it's all up to, like personalities, kind of hampers people's
ability to analyze systems because it doesn't matter whether, um
we suddenly put each and every CEO in a position
where they are all completely one hundreds of altruistics. It's

(11:56):
not that they're all being driven by greed. It's because
and the capitalism. You know, capitalists own capital, and capital
that is stagnant is capital that is losing its value,
and so they look for things to invest in so
they can grow their capital. Capital being anything from real estate, factories, machinery,

(12:19):
intellectual property, financial assets. What is the money that they
used to make more money. If it's stagnant, it's losing value,
and they're trying to increase its value. Um As they
see gold companies that have growing profits year after year,
so their capital will grow year after year, and if
that growth slews down, they pull out and look elsewhere

(12:39):
to invest. Companies that fail to grow will lose their
investors and collapse, And so companies do everything in their
power to maintain growth so they can maintain the investors,
regardless of how much havoc they reach upon the world.
So if any barriers are preventing their growth, they had
to build those those barriers. You know, environment of protections

(13:00):
and barriers labelow as a barriers. Protections policies are barriers.
The commons were a barrier, Indigenous populations were a barrier,
and so on and so forth. All of these acts
of violence open up these new frontiers for growth, for appropriation,
for accumulation, and so incomes the growth. Or the French

(13:22):
term for it is the croissant um. And I know
that I likely pronounced that incorrectly. It's the French. We
can disrespect them precisely. I think um, things that sit
down reflect on their nucleuing empire um. But anyway, this

(13:50):
idea of the growth really first was developed. I have
to say that I appreciate what the intellectuals have come
up with. They're good at sit down and thinking about stuff.
I'll give them that. I'll give them that. So there's
one French intellectual guy named Andrea Course in nine seventy

(14:11):
two coined the Tomb Deacons Saint French for the growth
go has basically posed a question that remains at the
center of the growth, is the Earth's balance for which
no growth or even the growth of material production is
a necessary condition compatible with the survival of the capitalist system.

(14:36):
I would avenge to say no, it is not in
any way compactable with this travel of the capitalist system,
because we have seen it in this short period of
time that the capitalism has existed, it has rapidly triggered
the capital scene, or as some people regrettably called the anthropocene,

(14:57):
it has rapidly triggered the sixth great mass ext accourn
event um. And so I do not believe that the
Earth's balance it's compatible with its survival. And so the
Croissant movement of activists mainly flourished in Leon in the
early two thousand's, in the week of protests for car

(15:19):
free cities, communal meals in the streets, food cooperatives, and
campaigns against advertising. It went from France to Italy, where
agree and anty globalization activists h mobilized against this whole
concept of capitalisms constant encroachments and expansion and growth expanded

(15:45):
into Catalonia in Spain in two thousens six. It eventually
built up to the size where it could sustain a movement.
A magazine rather Croissant, which currently sells a few thousand
copies a month. Around the same time, in two thousand four,

(16:08):
a research and activist named France Swash Schneider took a
year long walking tour on a donkey to disseminated growth
throughout France and that received some media coverage. Eventually, Schneider
founded an academic collective known as Research and the Growth
along with Dennis Bayonne and Februarri Fleepoo, and they eventually

(16:34):
began International conferences went in Paris into those and eight,
and the second in Barcelona, so the English term d
growth was officially used for the first time at the
Paris conference, which remarked the booth of the international research
community around the growth. Following the success of the conferences

(16:55):
in Paris and Barcelona, other conferences were held in Montreal
in eleven, Venice in twelve, Leipzig fourteen uh and the
Growth as an idea spread to groups in Flanders, Switzerland, Finland,
pooland Greece, Germany, Portugal, Norway, Denmark, Czech Republic. I guess
it's a check here now, Mexico, Brazil, Puerto Rico, Canada, Bulgaria,

(17:16):
Romania and elsewhere. The growth as an idea as in
a movement has been getting ground despite the criticisms that
somehow that oh, well, you can't call it something negative
like the growth, because people wouldn't be you know, happy
with it or whatever. Um. And I'll get to that
criticism and in a bit. But it's been steadily gruin

(17:37):
since it was first you know, developed in the nineteen seventies. UM.
At this point in time, if you go on the
the Growth website, you will find thousands of articles and
studies in their library. And of course it's not to
say that because of concept has a lot of follow

(18:00):
us or thinkers or published works, it's automatically uh a, okay,
ultimately correct. But at this point in time, I think
a lot of people are look at direction we are
going in and recognizing that we cannot continue along this
path of growth, and so they are actively looking for

(18:22):
a way out, looking for a way to find that balance,
recognizing that capitalism is not compatible with the Earth's balance.
And so the Growth ultimately rejects the illusion of growth.
It calls to re politicize the public debate that has
been colonized by the a m of economism UM, that

(18:47):
has been driven towards as a social objective economic growth,
the growth as a project advocating for the democratically lead
shrinking of production and consumption with the aim of achieving
social justice and ecological sustainability. I think when some people

(19:10):
care degrowth, despite all the explanations out there, despite even
consumers explanations, they might still have this idea and they
had a de growth is this thing where bunch of
armed government sponsored environmental activists roll up and take your
car and your house and force you to live in

(19:30):
a cave. Um. But de grow, and how we de
grow our economy is going to rely on the popular
um involvement of the people. You know. It's not like
you could just snap your fingers or just decreate and
make it so um. It's not meant to be like

(19:53):
how it is under New liberalism. We have all this austerity.
The growth is supposed to be all of us coming
together to this to figure out how we can live
in alignment with our biosphere, with our bioregion, with the planet,
scaling down our individual and our community um supply chains,

(20:16):
and localizing our consumption in order to reduce the reliance
on this highly extractive, highly growth dependent capitalist global capitalists economy.
The growth also signifies a direction, a desired direction, one

(20:36):
in which society is use fewer natural resources and organize
and live much differently than they live today. The ideas
of you know, sharing, which is something that we teach
the preschoolers, simplicity, conviviality, care, and the commons primary concepts

(21:00):
in terms of what a decre society should look like.
AH In one of my previous podcast episodes that would
have discussed the commons a bit, so if anyone is
curious about what the commons are, they could check that out.
UM and of course on my channel also speak about
the commons as an institution and about libraries of things.

(21:23):
And so the growth has offered a sort of a
framework that connects all these different ideas, concepts, proposals UM
with the criticism of growth, with the criticism of GDP,
with the criticism of commodification UM, the process that converts
social products and socio ecological services and relations into commodities

(21:45):
of the monetary value. On the constructive side, because the
growth is not just limited to criticism, do your imagines
reproductive economies of care, reclamation of all and the creation
of new commons. Man need and natural caring for commons

(22:08):
in communal forms of living and producing UM, liberating our
time from work and making it available to caring for
our communities and caring for our ecology. Because if you
think about all of the activities that are currently so
needed at this point in time in terms of ecological restoration,

(22:32):
in terms of um DE growth, they're not profitable. You know,
planting man grooves to shore up our shows, to defend
our shows from erosion and from storms, it is not profitable.
Replanting forests and sparking nature's processes of ecologial restoration not profitable.

(23:00):
And of course there is a whole sorts of ecosystem, economic,
political ecosystem dedicated to these kinds of projects. UM with
all the NGOs and government organizations involved in replanting the
Sahel region in Africa, for example, crazily create green wall.
But those projects tend to be right with issues and

(23:23):
a lack of intendence because they do not involve local
communities in the decision making surrounding UM that process of restoration.
And on top of that, of course, these projects are
not embedded in broad up project for the growth. So
a government be a government might be planting trees and

(23:47):
planting forests in one part of the country and extracting
and drilling in another part of the country. And so
there needs to be an integration of all these different
projects with a brother push and direction towards d crew.

(24:16):
I want to go back around to this idea that
m DE growth is a critique of GDP as a concept. Um,
the growth is not necessarily the same as negative GDP growth.
But when you consider how GDP is measured, as it's counted,
it's about financial transactions and not necessarily the non financial ones.

(24:40):
And so if we were to crean our economy, if
we were to de crew our society, um, we're not
going to be seeing the realy trus domestic activity increases
of two or three percent. Yeah, there's there's an old
like two eleven slogan that, uh, if when the bank

(25:02):
takes your house, that increases GDP. Right, that is true.
That is true. A lot of uh, positive and constructive
and beneficial actions that people do on a regular basis
do not contribute to GDP, whereas entire destructive industries contributes significantly.

(25:25):
It's every month. We started this by talking by comparing
kind of the quest for endless growth to a cancer,
but I almost think it's a better comparison. Is Like,
you know, there was that article early this year about
how specific kinds of people, particularly like rich weirdos in
the tech industry, are paying thousands of dollars to have
their legs broken and like lengthened so that they can

(25:48):
be like, that's that's that's that's a that's a shipload
of how act like, yeah, I mean it's weaker, they
can never we can never run again. But you are
technically taller, so well on in this growth, Yeah go up?
Much of a coward to wear platforms? Yeah yeah, so
you don't you don't have the hotspot to be a

(26:10):
short king. Unbelievable. Sometimes I do think that, like when
anthropologists on civilization the wonder why we were so fascinated
about line go up, But then they realized with the
whole point of the civilization was line go up? Like
that that was our deity truly, truly, it's it's it's

(26:32):
I don't know, my eyes my eyes bleed sometimes thinking
about how this whole system is structured and how it
just continues to chug along. But um, that's why I
spend so much time writing and reading and talking about
these issues, right, trying to find a whee out, And
so that is also what the growth advocates are looking

(26:56):
to do, the looking for we out, you know, way
for a better life first of all, which brings me
to the whole criticism of the growth that is essentially optics. Right.
They say it's not appropriate to use a negative word
to signify desired positive changes, but the growth advocates deliberately choose.

(27:21):
I mean, in my view, I said that I'm fine
with either quality growth or qualitate post growth or whatever.
But the growth advocates have chosen the term de growth
for a reason. The use of negation for a positive
project is aimed towards creating that sort of um questioning,

(27:44):
you know, towards getting people to reconsider this idea of
growth as a ultimate could to de colonize imagination that
has been dominated by this whole capitalist conception of the future.
Consistent of you know, line go up. Is this automatic

(28:04):
assumption and association of growth with better that the word
the growth wants to dismantle, wants to be construct and
so de growth. It is a deliberately subversive slogan. And
of course the growth is not aimed at, you know,

(28:25):
deconstructing the most necessary sectors, the devolved in the most
necessary sectors. We're not talking about de grow and education,
de grow in, medical care, de grow in you know, well,
renewable energy is kind of a tricky subject. But DeCrow
and renewable energy, UM, it's more so about primarily and

(28:48):
first of all, targets in the most duty and destructive industries,
you know, the financial sector. UM. We would prefer to
see institutions like health and energy Asian flourish rather than
crew or develop. We want to change that is qualitative,
not necessarily quantitative. You want to see a flourishing of

(29:12):
the arts, of flourishing of philosophies, of flourishing of um
vernacular architecture is a flourishing of the creativity of people.
And that's qualitative. It's not about oh, well, line go up,
so things more good, you know. It's not about we

(29:33):
have ten industrial output last year, now we have twelve.
That's so good. You know. We want something. We want
quality to change that. And if most people released sit
down and think about what they want in their life,
I don't think a lot of people are gonna are
gonna think of, Oh well, I want next year's iPhone

(29:55):
to have a twelve increase in the camera quality. Yeah,
you know, it's more so that you want better you know,
rest um more um connected communities, healthier commute or healthier

(30:17):
UM I guess city layout. Um, it's more conducive to interaction.
It's more conducive to um small scale movement. It's not about,
like I said, you know, it's not about trying to
get Lyne to go up cryptocurrency. As I think about it,
it's like perhaps the best example or like n f

(30:39):
t s, right, like they created a bunch of value
that literally created nothing. I had nothing other than exchange
value exactly exactly. It's just nonsense. Yeah, pretend money talk
for a moment about like development as a concept, right,
because another common criticism of the growth is that, oh well,

(31:02):
what about the global South, what about the Third world?
What about all the poor countries and poor people of
the world. You just want to leave them behind. And
for one, I find it strange because the person in question,
at least the video response that I got, simplicitly assumes
that I am from like a global North nichean and

(31:24):
I'm just fine sitting down with my you know, um
same day Amazon delivery and Starbucks and um, sprawling suburbs
and whatever it is that you know they imagine my
lifestyle is like. But I think first and foremost parts
of the whole move a t growth is to consider um,

(31:48):
like I said, reasonably improving people's quality of life worldwide,
which capitalism is not interested in. Coupitism will maintain a
perpetual under class because they're easier to exploit. And so
this is whole idea of development, right that has this baggage. Um,
it's very colonial bagguage. But it's development is really like growth.

(32:15):
It's meant to have like a limit. It's an unfolding
towards a predetermined end. You know. An embryo eventually develops
into a fetus, so she eventually develops into a baby,
She eventually develops into a child, She eventually develops into
an adult who then ages and dies. But development for

(32:37):
the sake of development, with no end, with no ams,
with no goals, with no sense of um self critique
or questioning, it's a disaster waiting to happen. I can
look at my own country and from trenon to vehicle.
For those who don't know and think of things that
need to get better, right, things that would really improve

(33:00):
people's quality of life. Um. To think about the fact
that we really need to get rid of our reliance
and cars and bring back our training system, um that
was dismantled so long ago. I could think about the
fact that we need to improve our food or autonomy

(33:23):
because we are extremely reliant on food imports. UM. Things
like that I can think about that would improve people's
ability to live well and sustainably on this island. But
those things, those aims, those are those are cools, right,
I'm just thinking, oh, development, development, development, I'm thinking, Okay,

(33:44):
there's point B. How do I get there from point A?
How are we going to meet people's basic needs? And
this is who and the whole Deep With project is
really about that whole inversion between the Goloble North and
the Global Salt. Right, the Global North needs to reduce

(34:05):
their demand for a lot of the resources and goods
so that they're more accessible to the Globle Salt. But
in making those things more accessible place, isn't the Global
Salt are not meant to follow the same path that
the Goloble North took. That put us in our mess

(34:26):
the whole ideas that we need to find a different path,
We need to find a different trajectory, We need to
think for ourselves instead of trying to keep up with
the junes Is in order to the Tuman what a
good life would mean for us in our ecological niche,
in our geographical situation. Yeah, what it was is like

(34:48):
we did, we did we we did. We did this
in China, right, Like we we did the entire development thing,
and the product is now like people literally walking eighteen
miles on foot after having broken out of a fox
con factory that they've been locked in and forced to
make iPhones because someone had like three people have gotten COVID,
so they just like locked everyone in the factory. So
like you know it. Yeah, And I think it's also

(35:10):
sort of like briefly worth mentioning that like development as
a concept and the sort of developmental economics field was
like this was like specifically developed in sort of the
bowels of the American State Department as as a response
to like basically as like as a way as a
kind of like simplified capitalist version of Marxist theory they
could throw out to sort of like explain what was

(35:30):
happening in like as as a way as a sort
of an alternative demarxism for like all these sort of
like newly post colonial nations. And you know, it's gone
about as well as you would expect. I think of
the valles of the state department to be alternative departments. Like, well,

(35:53):
this has been fun. Um, I love I don't know
thinking about capital. I mean this is it's this is
important because like we always need to be thinking about
what comes next. This is constantly like a problem that
the left has and certainly a problem the liberals have,
which is that, um, the vision of the future is

(36:15):
very rarely anything more than fighting against kind of the
demons of the moment, as opposed to like what does
it actually look like to get ourselves to a better place,
to a place that's more sustainable, both in an environmental
level and in like in a manner of human ecology too,
And um, yeah, I think this is like, this is

(36:35):
kind of the hard work that people need to be
thinking about. Wherever you wind up landing on on d
growth as either a concept or as a term, like
these are the paths we have to start beating out
of the bush, you know exactly. So they are many
potential that have already been thoughts open. There many that

(36:57):
have yet to be im g in Ecuador, the project
of Sumac, say and really the rest of Latin America,
the idea of green Vivere in much of South Africa,
the concept of UBUNTU in India, the Gandhian economy of permanence.

(37:24):
All of these projects are more explore alternatives to quote
and quote development, alternats of trajectories to a good life
UM that is rooted in environmental justice, that is based
in a retreat from the narrow confines of the global

(37:49):
North's imagination UM and what that imagination has promoted worldwide
and forced upon the rest of the world. The growth
requires us to think for ourselves, to think creatively about

(38:10):
how we plan on creating a good life in the
context of capitalisms degradation, the Earth's degradation due to climate change,
and what that will mean for our future. Is we
really need to sit and think about what our future

(38:30):
as a species, what of our future as regions, our
future as communities of future as individuals is going to
look like. What trajectory, what path we want to take,
and how we begin that journey. And so in the
second part of this two part series, I intend to

(38:56):
discuss what concepts are a sent show for the growth,
the steps we can take to move towards the growth,
and how we can integrate the growth in a kiss politics.
All right, and that's going to be the end of
part one. Come back tomorrow for part two and uh,

(39:16):
probably more discussion of that weird surgery. Rich people get
to have their legs broken repeatedly until they're taller. It
Could Happen Here is a production of cool zone Media.
For more podcasts from cool zone Media, visit our website
cool zone media dot com, or check us out on
the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

(39:37):
listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It could
Happen here, updated monthly at cool zone media dot com
slash sources. Thanks for listening.