Democracy in the Age of Riots

Mia and James discover the meaning of democracy and why democracy and riots are more similar than you might think.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
That's my getting absolutely screwed over by the medical establishment voice.
People thought it was another Sheep podcast. They were briefly
extremely excited. Nope, the Sheep, the Sheep podcast. Will I
make no promises about the Sheep podcast. What we're going
to tell them about the Lost Sheep episode? No, yeah, okay,

(00:31):
we'll try. Will just leave that one. Yeah, this is this,
this is it could happen here, the podcast where you
would think that the medical issue is a trans thing
and it's absolutely not. And it's amazing and I love it.
Uh yeah, it's it's a podcast for I complain about
medical issues and talk about other stuff with me as James. Yeah,

(00:52):
I'm a person who complains about medical issues and sometimes
goes to Mexico to buy drugs yeay, legal drugs, drugs
while we're being recorded. This The thing that is making
me think of is I was in oh god, I

(01:12):
don't remember where in Mexico I was. Um, I was
not very old, but so we took up, we took
off Fairy and it was I got like so C sick.
It was like the most C sick I've ever been.
So we had to like go back and um, so
I this my Spanish is not great. At this time,
my Spanish was much worse than it is now. Um,

(01:34):
and we have to we go to this drug store
and we're trying to find something that's like an anti
C sickness drug, and we buy this drug called vomisin
and we're looking same. When we're looking through that the thing,
we find the part where it's says side effects, and
I remember and I look at this and I and
I read it and it says said, I'm like, oh no,

(01:56):
it's like, oh god, it wound up. Actually it was
completely yeah, yeah, I did not vomit over the rails again,
I mean hydrant on the ferry right back. I have
a good I have a good inadvertent medicine hallucinogen story,
and then we can we can actually do the podcast.
And I was when I was a bit younger. I
was climbing a mountain Morocco and became extremely altitude sick,

(02:19):
like my fucking nose was just like unleashing my blood.
Like it was a real momentum. Yeah, I bad, look great,
and so I tried to get some medicine. We went
somewhere and like you, I speak French, but most of
people spoke Berber and it wasn't a language that I
speak at all. Anyway, I received some medicine which I

(02:40):
took in the form of I think like a powder
that I'm mixed with honey, and I was like, okay,
this is unique and different whatever fuck me, did I
have some incredible dreams. I just kept taking it because zone, well,
it was definitely opium was the thing I was taking.
Was like, I bought it down and was like, I
this stuff just really helped us my altitude sickness. One

(03:01):
of the adults I with with was like, ah, yeah,
dow drugs kids speaking of not doing drugs. Okay, So
what we are here today talk about democracy, the opm
of the masses. Yeah. So this this script was originally

(03:21):
written in a period where I had spent an enormous
amount of time being forced to watch documentaries about what
democracy was. And my conclusion from all of this is
that the history of democracy begins with a mistranslation. Okay,
So okay, what does that mean? The answer is that, Okay,
the whatever someone starts talking about democracy, the first thing

(03:44):
they do is they go like, I'm gonna start, I'm
gonna I'm gonna start by translating the word democracy. Now,
the most common translation that you'll see this like like everywhere,
from like Astra Taylor's like documentary what is Democracy to
just like the thing that's on Wikipedia holds that democracy
is derived from two Greek words. Right, you have demos,

(04:06):
meaning the people, and cradhouse meaning rule. So you put
these two together, you get demos cradouse, you get democracy.
My Greek, my camp announce great, fair well, it's fine whatever.
It's an ancient Greek. Yeah, but you know this means
rule by the people, so okay. This translation has simphal
advantages right foremost among them, it is simple enough to

(04:28):
be taught to a school to school children, and catchy
enough that is a non zero chance that like the
most pedantic of them will remember it after the day
after the test, which presumably is the explanation for why
this is. This is the translation of democracy. It opens
every single fucking thing people right about democracy. Unfortunately, appreciunately
for beleaguered grade school teachers and and sort of those

(04:51):
are the broader populace as a whole. This translation is
so blatantly wrong that I have been forced to start
a thing about democracy and also about rioting yelling about
ancient Greek So great, Okay, so what what what? What
is the actual issue here? The actual problem is the
mistranslation of Kretos in particular is incredibly important both conceptually

(05:17):
and ideologically, and the actual sort of proper translation and
the implications of this are worth examining in some detail.
So the other problem just David graeberds to we have
mentioned a lot on this show wrote in his regrettably
very poorly read essay There Never Was a West. He

(05:37):
describes Credos thus quote in this in turn, might help
explain the term democracy itself, which appears to have been
coined as something of a slur by its elitist opponents.
It literally means the force or even violence of the
people Kratos, not arcos, the ancient Greek word for ruler,

(05:57):
also the root of anarchism or without arcos. So yeah,
so what he's saying there wasn't Cretos a dude? Like
he's dude, day I undas sold him an immortal dude. Yeah,
he's Also he's the main character of the god of
war games. Okay, that is the thing I did not know.

(06:19):
And hilariously that that is like him him being the
main character of the god of war games. That is
actually a better way to understand what credos is than
the rule by thing that everyone usually translates. This app
because like, like ancient Greek has a perfectly good word
for like rule by right, it's arcos. It's the root
of anarchisms, like an an archos, it's but it's the word.

(06:40):
It's like the normal thing where you have a Greek
derived word where you want to say rule by is
that is arcos? Right, yeah, but democracy is not that, right, yeah,
like all gark is like that, but like democracy is
specifically credos. And this is because what democracy literally means
is ruled by the violence of the people. Fast. Yeah.

(07:04):
Well and this, you know, okay, so like this, this, this, this,
like this sounds like I am essentially pearl clutching about translations,
but the context you is actually important rights, as Grammar
points out, the sort of you know, Athens, which is
the example or society, society against which the original antidemocratic
philosopher is rail By the way, this is like Plato
hates democracy. Most of the people who you read from

(07:26):
sort of classical Greek, like, yeah, philosophy despised democracy even
so they live in them a huge you know, not
not not not to like whitewash Athenian society, but like
these people are like Sparta apologists, and it's like, yes,
we haven't really care. It's funny that people have definitely
I don't know if they've actually recovered Plato or red

(07:46):
Plato or they just get mad when Donald Trump doesn't
win elections. But like this whole, like this whole like
benevolent philosopher king ship has definitely definitely made a comeback
in recent years, and it's troubling. Yeah, And I think
I think part of this, this is this is another
complaint that I've had about sort of like the way
that like the sort of like great authors thing is

(08:09):
taught in in in universities, is they deliberately like there
was like an in in what in what specific readings
they assigned, there was like an incredible intellectual effort that
goes into making sure you never see the absolutely deranged
shit that these people believe. Like Plato, Plato literally worships
angular momentum. Yeah, like that is his god is angular

(08:30):
momentum um. Like he he he's like he hates democracy.
He loves like spurred in like oligarchy basically, like all
of this stuff is like that's like something like you
don't read and know when you get assigned Plato, it's like, yeah,
there's a huge like um, as someone who's taught like
a ton of universities, that's that's this huge fucking impediment

(08:52):
to you assigning that stuff. Like I've specifically tried to
assign different stuff in these like writing courses, which which
ended up being like great white dudes of history, right Like, um,
like if you kind of signed different things, but like
the cost of assigning those and that that cost isn't
born by you or the university, right, it's born by
your students is massive. Like even if like for a

(09:16):
while there, like we would just like a lot of texts,
you know, if you take the time as a professor
to label out the text, you can take it to
a print shop, get them to photocopy it, and it
almost evigbly you need to find someone who's willing to
kind of play fast and news with copyright. But still
it will end up costing your students so much more
than the texts which are in the book that you

(09:38):
can fucking autogenerate the quizzes because the book also has
a website and you still get paid like you're doing
a job when you're not. So yeah yeah and bad yeah.
And this stuff has had you know, like this has
had sort of profound ideological influences, has had you know,
it's it's has sort of profound it's a profound influences
on like the I mean just sort of the way
that like ancient Greece and Rome or conceptualized and and

(10:02):
and I think this also really has uh you know,
it hasn't It makes it very hard to see what
was sort of actually going on in a place like Athens.
And you know, a great grapar sort of points this
out right, like Athens is a sort of like exemplar
I like, you know sort of it's as sort of
an examplar, like it is literally like the place for

(10:25):
which like like most descriptions of sort of democracy are
are are sort of originally about and Athens. You know,
we are trained to think of Athens as like, oh,
it's like, well Athens, this is like the first democracy
or whatever. This is like actually this is actually like
a very normal sort of society and it's not this
is a this is an extremely weird society. And what

(10:47):
what what Grapar sort of points out about this, right
is you know the thing that that is you know, okay,
so like there have been lots of societies over sort
of the course of human like the you know, hundreds
of thousands of years in the sort of like course
of human history that I've had collaborative decision making systems.
What is very, very weird and almost unique about Athens

(11:07):
is it has two things put together. It has a
decision making apparatus where people have equal say, and it
also has a violent enforcement mechanism to impose the will
of the people on other people and as you know,
as we'll get to you in a second, also impose
the will of those people on other people. Most society, Yeah,

(11:28):
that that that that turns out to be a very
important part of sort of vening empire, et cetera. Exaction
like who the people are? Yeah, this is people. Yeah,
well we'll get to that in a second too. But
so so most societies, grape or argues either have one
or the other of you know, having a having like
a decision making apparatus people of equal say, and a

(11:50):
violent enforcement mechanism right, You have a lot of societies
with collective decision making apparatus is that involve the entire community.
But the thing is, these these processes in varyably sort
of like develop some kind of consensus process as a
sort of expedient to keep the community from just tearing
itself apart through costs of conflict, right, because like, okay,

(12:11):
like if you can't actually without the threat of force, right,
you can't actually have society where you constantly have really
really controversial decisions being made by like fifty one forty
nine splits where both sides absolutely hate each other and
one side as imposed over the other. Right, And in
order to sort of like keep your like, you know,
your like city or your state together, right, you have

(12:33):
to actually create political solutions that you know, people people,
not not that they necessarily like fully agree with, but
that they're willing to live with. And then you know,
this generates sort of like various so increasingly elaborate, sometimes
not very elabab but you know, various sort of forms
of consensus processes. On the other hand, you have societies
with extremely violent enforcement mechanisms, but these societies are almost

(12:56):
always incredibly hierarchical and they're ruled either by to monarchs
or oligarchs who just simply do not care about the
notion that like people should rule themselves or that you know,
other like other other people who are not like the
king or the body of oligarchs, should have like anything
even remotely to do with making decisions. And that that's

(13:18):
what makes Athens really weird, right is Athens has both
of these things. It has a sort of it has
like a violent it has a way of like imposing
decisions on people through violence. And also it has this
principle that like people should be able to make decisions
for themselves collectively by you know, like through through through

(13:38):
a sort of process that doesn't involve them all being
ruled by just like some guy. And you know what
makes Athens or the other and the other sort of
Greek democracies, because there are there are other democracies in
Greece over the sort of period that this goes on.
What makes them unique is that, like the people quote
unquote is composed largely of soldiers, as Grabory puts it,

(14:01):
in other words, if a man is armed, then one
pretty much has to take his opinion into account. One
can see how this works and its starkist and Xenophon's
anabasis I have been I have now been told by
several dictionary sites that this is, in fact how you
pronounced it. I don't know. Annabassis sounds terrible to me,
but such as the will of of I don't know dictionaries,

(14:24):
which tells the story of a Greek army of mercenaries
who suddenly find themselves leaderless and lost in the middle
of Persia. They elect new officers and then hold a
collective vote to decide what to do next. In a
case like this, even if the vote was actually sixty forty,
everyone could see the balance of forces in what would
happen if things actually came to blows. Every vote was

(14:46):
in a real sense a conquest. So what we're dealing
with here right in this is this is sort of
what democracy is is very rawest form. Is you are
dealing with a group of very heavily armed men who
need to find a way to convince slightly more than
half of the group to agree to help them impose
their rule on everyone else. Do you know what I

(15:08):
will get you? Do you do? You? Do you know
who will fail to pay your mercenary contract? Leaving you
stranded in the middle of a Persian civil war which
you have backed the wrong side. Vladimir Putin. Yeah, don't
take mercenary contracts in Vladimir Putin. And we're back. So,

(15:34):
you know, as I was sort of saying, well, what
we're dealing with here, right, we have a group of
very heavily armed men and they they need they need
to find a way to make you know, they need
to find a way to make like half of like
slightly more than half of the group agree with them
to impose their sort of rule on everyone else. So
it's slightly more technical terms, right, Athenian, you know, Athenian

(15:56):
democracy or democracy in the Athenian sense, it's composed of
two code determining elements fused together. There is a decision
making apparatus and an enforcement mechanism. The two are code
determining because the structure of the enforcement mechanism, which is
fifty one blokes with sticks beating forty nine blokes with
sticks over the head, also determines the structure of the

(16:17):
decision making apparatus, which no longer needs to concern itself
with the opinion of everyone in the group, as they
would in a society without the ability to sort of
employ violence to enforce decisions as long as they have
enough people to sort of militarily defeat a minority of
the group. Right, you know, you could you could see
how the structure, how the enforcement mechanism is is the

(16:39):
thing that is structuring what the decision making process has
to look like. Right. It's the thing that sort of
sets its limits. And this something that it turns out,
is very very sort of important in what a democracy is.
The enforcement mechanism, too, is also determined by the sort
of decision making apparatus. Because the people here are soldiers.

(17:01):
So the fifty one percent that becomes the sort of
like basis of the democratic majority rule. You know, it
literally composes the enforcement mechanism itself. And this sort of
double code determination is the origin of majority rule democracy. Right,
the institution that you know, in various forms, and we

(17:22):
will get into this like this has gotten increasingly less
and less quote unquote democratic over time, but this specific
form is the thing that has come to sort of
define what democracy is. If we look at what democracy
is as a political project, though, right, what we see
is that the essence of democracy itself is to transform

(17:44):
the majority from a simple count of military strength into
into a signal of morality. Right, The citizens of democracies,
and even even a lot of people who are either
not citizens of a democracy and live in it or
who don't live in a democracy, simply believe that is
the more or all right for a majority of people
to be able to impose the will in a minority.

(18:04):
This is this is just this you know, this this this,
this is what. This is what forms a kind of
democratic common sense. Right. It is the thing that everyone
believes that is sort of the basis of everything about
how a democracy functions. Right, And you know, democracy is
almost never framed this way explicitly except by you know,
every once in a while you'll get someone who makes
his argument who is like I don't know, they're a

(18:26):
billionaire or they're like, you know, what's his name? I yeah,
high em will like like if you press him, or
like Milton Freeman to also well like if you press him,
will make this argument, right, which is like no one
actually wants to live in a democracy, because you know,
like if you you know, if if we actually live
in a democracy, everyone will just like increase our tax

(18:46):
rate or like marginalized groups will like these are critiques
made of the United States as well. Yeah. The earliest inception, right, yeah,
you know, I know, what's his name, I think it was,
I think was John Adams. So some of the early founders,
like very explicitly is their argument against, like maye various
was the anti democratic arguments against giving anyone who didn't
have property the vote, which was, like, I think that

(19:07):
the exact line was, if you give people the vote,
the first thing they will do is erase the debts
and redistribute the land. Yeah, which was all ast rebellion
about this, right, yeah, yeah, I wish would have been
based a good program usually kind of kind of messed
up in the US where you have to ask where
that land comes from. But you know, yeah, but like, well,

(19:27):
this is this is an argument you really only ever
hear from people who have like the only minority that
makes this argument are people who have a ship ton
of property, who are like, oh god, and you know,
and their their thing here is, well, okay, we need
to make the system blessed democratics so that people can't
take our property away, yeah, or give property rights. Yeah yeah.
But on the other hand, the reason for sort of

(19:48):
pointing out that this is what democracy is in theory
is really sort of cynical and like reactionary. But the
thing that the reason this argument works quote quote works
with sort of like you know, with with sort of libertarians,
is that this equation of of sort of numerical superiority
with the more right to exercise power is like the

(20:09):
key underlying assumption of democracy. It is the idea without
which democracy simply seizes the function. Right. But but this
is something that you know, people don't talk about democracy
like this, right. The sort of trick of the democratic
system is to make is to push the enforcement mechanism
into the background. Right when when when you talk about

(20:30):
democracy with like regular people, the thing that they walk
and they normally they think about voting, right, But you know,
and any any kind of thing that is like a
collective like decision making process, right, a regular person is
going to call democracy. And you know, there if that's
kind of true. But but you know, but if if
if you want to sort of get like technical about it,

(20:50):
it's not. And there's an there's an incredibly large ideological
apparatus that's specifically built up around making sure that people
don't look at the way that the that the enforcement
mechanism is as much, if not more so, a sort
of key element of what of what democracy is than
the part where you know, where everyone comes together and

(21:11):
make it makes a decision that everyone talks about all
the time. I was watching an interview with Gray But
the other day such other things I do in my
free time, and he was talking about like democratic confederalism
in Northeast Syria, right, and he talked about it as
like democracy without the state, which I think it's interesting,
like it's him using that vernacular yeah definition, So okay,

(21:35):
So I think I'm taking a lot of the arguments
from self grabber wrote, but he backs away from the
implications of his own argument, right yeah, and goes back
to albeit like caveating there were and I guess it's
worth noting that there are a ton of like hugely
divergent like we're not like prisoners of etymology, right, like

(21:56):
like yeah them meaning like I think it's Rosa Luxem
who said government is uh politics into people's interests or
something that it's kind of bullshit tanky interpretation of that.
Most people would see it as there are these broad definitions,
you know, And I think this is something that like
like Asher Taylor's documentary, right, like you know the part

(22:17):
about that's good. Right, it's like there's I forget who
says that there's this like kind of famous political line
that's like I if if if if if there if
there is a thing that everyone agrees is good, no
one will agree on what it is, right, Like, you know,
this is something that like you know, like I think
I think it's it speaks to the power I think
it sas specifically to the power of the sort of

(22:37):
like like the idea that more people being like agreeing
with something like gives gives legitimate gives legitimacy to that thing,
which is that like every like like even societies that
are like not even like really remotely democratic. Right, We'll
pretend that there's soul democracies, right, like the Batists have
elections every sort of like yeah, I mean like like

(23:00):
you know, this is this is the thing I think
isn't very well understood, but like like this this was
also a thing like for example, China has this like okay, sorry,
I I I as as as I'm preparing to explain this,
I'm realizing that the China wa like the like Chinese
government experts are going to get mad at me because
I'm I think, I think I'm about to confuse the

(23:22):
United the United Front with the United Front Works Department.
But so chin China, like technically speaking, is there are
like other parties technically that are kind of remnants from
like you know, for exact example, like the left faction
of the KMT, which is like the Chinese Nationalist Party. Right,
there's there's like technically a faction of them that's part

(23:43):
of this thing called like the United Fronts. There's like
technically other parties and they have like this like consultative role.
It's it's it's an incredibly convoluted and elaborate system, but
you know, like that whole thing and you you you
can find you know, like the Chinese system is like
not it's not democratic in this sense of like you
can like vote for someone or like like okay, like

(24:05):
it's not democratic in the sense of you can make
a vote that will make a thing happen, right, you know.
And to be fair, the US is also not democratic
in the sense of you can cast a vote and
make a thing happen, right, But this is sort of
like you know, okay, like it is. It is a
in a society that is less democratic than the US,
which is sort of astounding considering the US like doesn't
even have one person, one vote. Right. Well, we'll get

(24:27):
into like republics a bit in a second, but like
you know, like Chinese like quote unquote democracy is like
not it has very little to do with like the
principle of like the mote, like fifty one percent of
the population votes for a thing and it happened for it.
But but you know, like if if if you if
you look, if you look at the sort of rhetoric
that you that you see from or in the internal

(24:49):
justification of like like you know you sort of like
read chinesecratic documents, so you read sort of like that
their pr stuff. Like they constantly talk about like, yeah,
we're gonna make a more democratic society because like that
legit amas like the idea of democracy is really incredibly
powerful and enduring, and it's something that like even like
you know, like I mean, like I don't know, like
the Saudis don't pretend to be a democracy really, but

(25:11):
like most of the other like golf monarchies have like
election ee things, right, Like it's it's it's an idea
that is that is enduring and powerful enough that even
people who don't agree with it are forced to sort
of like do this pageantry of it. And I think
that's really interesting, and I think it explains a lot

(25:35):
of the kind of I mean, especially around to occupy,
but I think it explains a lot of the kind
of political movements that we've been seeing over the last
about fifteen years, which is I think this is also
an explanation for why why we see so many riots
as as a former as as a form of politics,

(25:55):
and why you get these demands that are sort of like,
I don't know, you like in the two thousand eleven revolutions,
and so you sort of also see this now you
get a lot of sort of very abstract calls for
a democracy while also doing things that like are quote
unquote not legitimate in a democratic society, like like rioting
is not supposed to be sort of like a legitimate

(26:16):
political action in a society because you know, like there's
this whole like the AA, because there's a system under
which violence is supposed to be administered, administered right like
you have a state. The state is the thing that's
supposed to do violence. If anyone else does it outside
of that, they're like, you know, they're an illegitimate extremist.
But okay, if if we go back to our sort
of based definition of what democracy is, right, democracy is

(26:39):
a collective decision making apparatus anti enforcement mechanism. It's like, well,
what is a riot? Right? A riot is both of
those things happening at the same time. There are a
bunch of people collectively making a decision and then imposing
that decision immediately. Yeah, it's ap Thompson who quote the
Leadites collective bargaining by riot quite possibly. Yeah, Yeah, it's

(27:06):
it's often like reference now and other stuff like like
people talk about like you know, like your your here,
that youth all the time. I think they're the original
that is, um, what is it Eric Hobbsborn could be
Hobbsborn anyway. Yeah. Famously the Laddites were called collective bargaining
by riot. Yeah, I think, well, I think there is

(27:26):
something sort of interesting there about collective bargaining by sort
of physical force. It's like the decision making apparatus is
happening outside of the sort of normal bounds in which
decision making apparatus is supposed to happen, And I think
I think there's there's a sort of this isn't there's
another I forget exactly which graver thing this is from,

(27:47):
but that you know there's graver there's actually this might
actually be from about Batman, which is pretty funny. Um.
What's what's his take on Alfred's class status? I don't
think he unfortunately, I think that's I think that's the
one thing he doesn't mentioned. Pretty I'm pretty sure there's
no Alfred discourse in it. There's lots of other discourse.
He calls how is it banging it? No, he calls joker,

(28:10):
he calls one of the Batman villains of Zerzanite, which
I think is very funny. Um. Yeah, but you know, okay,
he has this argument about sort of like okay, how
do you you know? So? So the the other part
of democracy is it is the part about the people, right,
And this is always the thing that's that's very much
in contention, like how do you determine what the people

(28:33):
quote unquote are? And you know the structure of Athenians
society is very much determined by who isn't isn't included
in the people, right, Like, you know, women can't vote.
If you're a slave, you also can't vote. There are
lots of people who are directly under Athenian rule who
can't vote and are you know, not part of the people,
and therefore sort of like and and this this is

(28:53):
in some sense the origin of like sort the trajectory
democracy goes on, right, which is that it goes through
his republicanism, because you know, like the founders of the US, right,
if you look at this, that style of fifty fifty
plus one style majority democracy, right, those guys, you know,
as we talked about, like they didn't want a democracy

(29:15):
because they thought into democracy people would vote against their
sort of like aristocratic interests. Yeah, and so what they
sign it? Yeah, like yeah, it's like, well, all these
people own slaves, all these people own a bunch of land,
all these people like I don't know, or like bankers
and shit. And they're like, Okay, so it's gonna be
a bad idea if we let people like decide what

(29:35):
to do with our stuff. So instead, you know, they
go to this republican structure. And the republican structure is
I think very interesting because it takes the fifty plus
one structure, right, but you know, it abstracts it to
the point where like the like you like, your vote
for the most part basically simply does not matter. Like
every once in a while, like a local election, it

(29:56):
can do something. But you know, like what what's actually happening,
right is is you are like you you are selecting
who is going to rule you. And you know, the
other part of this is that the enforcement mechanism becomes
autonomous from the people itself, because you know, unlike unlike
an Athenian thing where like everyone's either like on a

(30:18):
ship because they're like a they're you know, they're part
of the navy, or they like you know, they can
go strap on their fucking shield and like plates and
grabbed your big ass spear, right, and you know, it
was like, ok, well, this is this is the state, right,
the state is like fucking Jerry and his friend like
Patricklis or whatever the fuck, you know, like forming forming
a shield wall with the like the shields they have

(30:40):
at home. You know. But but you know, and that's
the thing like in in in in sort of like
warrior democracies of that out like there are there are
sort like the Cassatra republic. I think that's it. Um,
they're they're these sort of like they're like you know,
they're like they're they're there there. There are republics like
this or quote unquote republic like this that that that
exists in in various places in the world where you
have these sort of like military classes that you know,

(31:03):
like do fifty plus one, but those people, right, the
enforcement mechanism is very is very very direct. In a republic,
the enforcement mechanism becomes autonomous and also the decision making
apparatus becomes both both of them become autonomous from like
the people quote unquote who are supposed to be making
the decisions, and suddenly you have the situation where you know, okay,

(31:25):
if you live in the US, right, it is very
very clear that there are lots of things that everyone
supports that simply like are not is not like like
it's not happening right like you know, I mean you
can look at sort of like universal healthcare, like I mean,
for another example that we could take that's I think

(31:45):
for poignant right now, is like there was a pretty
recent study on like what percentage of the population in
the US supports trans people getting like friends affirming healthcare
and it was like seventy percent. And then you know,
I mean but you know, you look at a state
by state basis, right, and it's like what we'll be
talking about this more or sort of later, but you know,
basis like, well, that's not fucking happening, right, people are
just making it illegal. And it's very easy to look

(32:08):
at this and go like, well, okay, so the principle
of fifty plus one is being violated, right, Like, this
is not a democracy. Something something else has happens. One
sort of solution to this is to go back to

(32:30):
you know, is to very literally go back and ask
the question who is the people? And and this is
this is you know a lot of ways what occupy
is doing right, Like occupies answer this is like we
are the ninety nine percent, right, It's okay, So like
there there there is a thing that is claiming to
be the like the demos in in democracy, which is
you know, Congress, right, but like, okay, Congress trivially is

(32:54):
not the people rights and the best a section of them.
It is definitionally in any in any yeah, right, you know,
and okay, so you have you have lots of versions
of this like the American one tends to be a
lot of people sitting in square, you know, but like
like like can actually convening a something that's kind of
like a democracy. But even but unless everything was like

(33:15):
is occupy democracy, right, Like, they don't have violence as
like a political tool. Really. I mean this isn't to
say that like there wasn't some weird, shady shit that happens,
but like, you know, like they don't have the ability
to sort of like coerce people into accepting like a
fifty one percent decision that people like genuine they can't
live list right, So so they don't they don't really

(33:37):
like they in some sense in challenging democracy, they create
something that isn't really a democracy, right, They create a
sort of like elaborateate census process. And this is you know,
like if if the Kratos pot is I'm trying to
think of a way I've been trying to think for
ten minutes about way to phrase this, but like if
the if the strength and power is like is the
people and it's even distributed among the people as opposed

(34:01):
to it's a state, and like if some of this
theoretical abstraction of the will of the majority of the people,
then that that leads to a consensus almost by definition, right,
like like if yeah, well, I mean I think I
think the sort of breaking principle here is if you
think that it is legitimate to use for a group
of people to use violence to enforce something, and at

(34:25):
that point everyone is still armed, then then you you
get a fifty plus one structure, right, right. But if
if you don't think it's legitimate to use violence to
coerce people into sort of like doing whatever the thing
is you want to enforce, then by definition you get
some kind of consensus process. But you know, we have
a system that every everyone like thinks that what's happening,

(34:48):
like you know, in some sense, like the ideological principle
is that like you know, everyone thinks that what's happening
is is you have a fifty plus one system. And
that's where like the legitimacy of the system comes from,
because like, you know, we voted for these people, but
also it's so clearly not and also like the police
are so clearly just this sort of like roaming like
bandit force that is like not even like remotely like

(35:11):
it like they technically drawl agen missy from the people.
But like you know, okay, like what what what what
what what happens if you try to convene an assembly
of the people in the US. The answer is they
beat the shit out of you with sticks and then
tear gas you and then like start shooting you. Yeah,
so you know, I mean this is this is sort
of what you know, like like this this is what
occupy proved, right, which is like if if you challenge

(35:34):
the sort of the claim of the government to represent
the people, right, because like who who the fuck are
these assholes to like to be like a hey, no,
like we we we are the people. We are sort
of like the legitimate manifestation of people. If you want
to do anything, like you have to go through us.
Well it's like okay, so like how how did how
did they get that? How did they get that authority? Right?

(35:54):
And the answer is they did it. They did it
by staging an Ard revolution and that that that's what
they're legion, that's what they're act. Legitimacy derives from, right,
is they they want they won the Arge Revolution, Yeah,
and violently dispossess people of that before the diet that
like backing off colonialism to do an armed revolution, yeah,
and so like okay, but like you know there their
legitimacy is incredibly tenuous, right, Like this gives you this

(36:19):
question of how do you determine like what you know,
how does a democracy determine what the people are? And
one one way that you can make a sort of
counterclaim again against a democracy is by a like physically
assembling a ship ton of people in a place and
going like we are like physically we are the people
and we are going to make decisions. And you know
that that can that can look like occupy with like

(36:39):
a seven hour meeting about whether where we want to
put plants right, or it can look and this is
you know, you get this a bit and occupy but
like or it can look like you know, here are
one hundred thousand people like they are going to fight
there once you just like throw shit at the police
until the police run away. And you know that that
is that that that is a that is a thing
that like we have seen in this country. This this

(37:01):
will be like another episode, but this this this was
a thing that happens in Mexico on three thousand and
six in Wahaka, where people basically ran out the police
by literally hundreds of thousands of people Like wait, wait,
waking up to a bunch of police, like a bunch
of police just beating the ship out of like a
bunch of striking teachers and then like picking up a
brick and throwing it. You see it a little bit,

(37:24):
not really but like in like Podemos in Spain if
you're familiar with that, Yeah, like they kind of their
attempt to have people determined their policy platform but not
last year successful one. But like yeah, well, I mean interesting,
Obama did that too. I really yeah, this was the
thing Obama had this job. Like one of Obama's initial
pitches was like he was gonna have there's gonna be

(37:45):
this like online thing where people could vote and like
decide in policy things, and he immediately manded it. And
Podemos also immediately like this, this is this is one
of the things that like this is this is like
one of the ways you try to like capture this
kind of like yeah, because what what what what you're
what you're really like when when when riot police are
like fighting like a bunch of people in the street, right,
Like what what you're watching is is two kinds of

(38:07):
democracy fighting with each other. Right, You're you're, you're, you're
watching a sort of like like you're you're you're watching
the crowd, which is and you know, a very very
immediate like for like you know, literal form of democracy
right where you know, the crowd makes a decision and
people do things fighting the police, who are like a
very you know, the like the police are technically like

(38:30):
a part of a democratic system, right, but the police
are just purely the sort of like like they're they're
they're you know, they they they they are the violence
by which the people rule. And you you are watching,
but you're watching these two things sort of like clash
with each other. And you know, I mean I I
think I think one of the sort of like products

(38:51):
of of of the way that republicanism like specifically developed
or like a republicanism in the sense of like this
is a republic that a democracy like yeah small like
yeah small r but also in the sense of like, okay,
so instead of you voting on things directly like you know,

(39:12):
you vote for some asshole who yeah funding, yeah whatever,
right like that that sort of like unmooring of of
of the means of violence from the people, which was
you know which was is the essence of democracy good
or bad? Right? And and and I would also say,
like you know that can go like that that sort

(39:32):
of like having having violence and democracy like you know,
violence and decision making being paired together, Like that's not
always a good thing. That can go really really badly, right,
Like you know, because like like for example, like a
race riot, right, like like a clan march right is technical,
like is technically an expression of democracy, right? It is
you know, it is a group of people convening themselves
as the people and then doing an action. And you know,

(39:55):
and you like I this has been something I've been
sort of been forced to think about it a lot
with the anti trans laws, which is that like trans
people are like you know, the most optimistic estimate you
could like have is like maybe two and a half
percent of the population if you assume visible to people
who are trans and don't know that they're trans, right,
Like you know, and if if you were two and

(40:18):
a half percent of the population in a in a
fifty plus one system, it is very easy for fifty
one there is no physical way that you can have
like if fifty plus one percent of the population decides
to kill you while there's nothing you can do, right,
Like there's there's no amount of like voting that you
can do that will make you not die, because that
that's the sort of like the terinat of the majority

(40:40):
or whatever like or like that. Yeah, yeah, have you're
familiar with, like the argument it gets utilitarianism that like
the greatest good for the greatest number, or the greatest
happiness for the greatest number, if you're looking to serve
the greatest happiness the greatest number. If like ten people
get two units of happiness from beating one person to
death with sticks, yeah, yeah, and then like the kon

(41:01):
experience as much sadness as the experienced happiness, like yeah,
democratic impulse in action. Yeah, and you know, like this
is the thing that is again what we're talking about,
like is normally brought up by like incredibly corrupt, corrupted
sort of vital the leads who want to protect their status,
but like it is also you know, and like this
is part of the reason why, for example, the US
just fucking puts like immigrants to camps, right because they

(41:23):
can't fucking vote, right, Like they're they're not part of
like quote unquote the people, right, Like there are large
sections of the populations who are just you know, like
booted from this entire process, right. Um. This is an
argument that William C. Anderson and Zoe Samoods you make
in the book as Blackness Resistance, which is that like, yeah,
like black people like fucking are not part of the ship, right,
Like they're not like a constituent of like part of

(41:46):
the people TM right yeah, And you know this they
they they call this, they call this the anarchism of blackness, um,
which is this sort of like it's it's it's a
position of being like removed as like a legit of
it sort of like subject in the state. Who can
you know, exercise you're like democratic rights or whatever the
fuck it is, like yeah, okay, like lots of people

(42:07):
have never had this, and you know this, even even
even in this sort of like you know, relatively egalitari
like you know, like there there have been like parts
of the US, like especially the early US. Right. You
have your like sort of like New England town council. Ryan,
It's like, well, what is what is your New England
Town council all to do? It's like, well, a vote
to send out the fucking militia to kill indigenous people, right, like,

(42:30):
you know, even you can even even even when the
US has functioned as something that is closer to like
a like democracy TM, where like the means of violence
and the means of sort of decision making are actually
placed in direct directly in people's hands, right, Like that
doesn't always go well, but yeah, you know, but like
you know, we we we we we have now developed

(42:51):
a like we we we we developed a system that
has like the worst of every single parts of every
single aspect of this right We're like, okay, so we
we have fifty plus one as the sort of like
legitimating factor, but also fifty perside of the population plus
one does not actually vote for a thing. It is
possible for like more than half of the popular It's

(43:14):
possible for a majority of the population to vote for
a BUSINESSO canidate you get a different one, right, Like, yeah,
it's possible. Like we've seen this, like so many fucking
elections have had this now like two in my lifetime,
like like and and also also we have we we
have the other part of it, which is that we
also have like the we have the other democratic principle

(43:35):
of like you should be able to enforce a political
opinion by violence. Yeah, we got that in space. Yeah,
and you know again, guests get guests gets like get
guess guess who fucking guests to make that decision. It's
not fifty plus one of you. Like, it's a bunch
of assholes and suits and like six cops. I think
a good way to view the US. It's like a
bunch of landowners native system where land votes and people don't. Yeah, well,

(44:01):
and then and then you know, and then and then
they went about making sure that like even if the
land does vote for a thing, if it's not for yourself,
it doesn't happen or seventy Yeah, there's seventy five weird
dudes in between your vote and anything actually happening. Yeah,
which is how you get like this kind of constitutional
magic the trumpets are always trying to do because like

(44:21):
it's not actually like that far from reality, right there,
there are like seventeen magic incantations I have to get
said after you put your ballot in the box, and
then an old white dude's in charge again. Yeah, but
you know, I think, like, you know, the US system
is like it's stunningly bad, Like it's it's it's like
a it's a really dogshit like tooroughly written democratic system

(44:44):
like it is it is designed not to function like that.
That that was actually the point. Yeah, Yeah, there's like
a there's a king, a thing that like you shouldn't have,
like the fur the president is supposed to it's supposed
to be a king, right, Like I think like if
if if, if you go back and read like what
the balance of powers was supposed to be was like
they're they're doing the Roman thing of like you need

(45:05):
like you need to combine to king and oligarchy and
a democracy. And it's like, well, okay, so we have
like a fucking king who could just like kill people.
It's great, it's great, it's great, but you know, you know, okay,
So the I think, I think the the the broad
total argument that that I want to make here is
that what we have been seeing over the last about

(45:25):
fifteen years, right with the certain movement of the squares,
with the series of uprisings that we saw, I mean,
you know in twenty twenty the US, but also like
all over the world from about twenty eighteen to I
mean some of there're still some of them are still
going like now right, you know, it's it's, it's. It's.
It's been a reaction to sort of this right, it's it's.

(45:45):
It's been a reaction to democracy as a legitimating principle
not matching like demod like you know, even even even
what the principle is supposed to be, and then people
going out into the streets and doing to democracy, and
the sort of clash between like democracy and theory and
democracy in action mostly has resulted in democracy in action winning,

(46:08):
because it turns out the thing about Republicans is that
they're really, really, really good at creating like military apparatuses
that are very hard to defeat by just purely fighting them. Yeah, sadly, Yeah,
But however, Comma, sometimes they lose, and you know, and

(46:30):
as as as as as the old IRA thing goes,
they have to get lucky every time. We only have
to get lucky once, so you know, keep collectively bargaining
by riot. Yeah, what the fuck else are you gonna do?
You know, like vote like yeah, yeah, yeah, Like your
life depends on it. Kids, You can vote if you

(46:52):
want to write like they're there are instances in which
it might meaningfully reduce the cruelty of the state a
little bit in some places sometimes, but yeah, it's not
gonna it's not gonna like take away the central fucking
connad of the whole thing. Yeah yeah, So I do
do do do do due democracy by writing that is

(47:13):
our official legal position. This is legally I'm legally non actionable,
but also legally actionable at the same time. This is
called dialectics. And yeah, this, this is what they could
happen here. Find us in the places, don't find us
in the places. Read grab yeah I do that. Read

(47:37):
The Never Was a West. It's great. Nobody reads it.
It's it's really good. People have been asking for Grabe
a book because we keep talking about him. So yeah,
read I Never read The Never Was a West. Read
towards an anarchist anthropology bullshit jobs. It's good to start.
If you read if if You, if You, if if you,
if you, if you want to be the real grave
head and read something that fucking no one has read.

(47:59):
Go reads towards an anthropological theory of value. I read
into one of my cuttings at supermarket the other day
and we were talking about that, Say, good book, no
one has ever read it in Uh yeah, read Gray
but it Could Happen Here as a production of cool
Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit

(48:21):
our website cool zonemedia dot com or check us out
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