Girlboss Fascism

We discuss Italy's new primer, Giorgia Meloni, who just broke the glass ceiling of fascism, how media has covered her rise to power, and the normalization of the far-right across Europe.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
He's trying to conceive of it, girl Boss noised, No,
I'm trying. There's trying to think of something that's about
like Italian racism, um and how we should all be
racist against Italians um because now it's important. Um oh hi,
welcome to it could happen here the show where we're
talking about anti Italian racism um and and also girl

(00:27):
Bosses finally to two great tastes that go great together.
So like mixing peanut butter and piss. That's right, the
piss being Italians. Girl Boss. I usually don't say things
that are that obvious, but yes, with me today is

(00:48):
Chris James and Robert I'm Garrison, and we're talking about
girl boss fascism today. Um and uh, it's are we
going to say Georgia? Is that how we're going to
do it? Is that how we're going to say her name? Georgia?
But I don't know George Georgia Milani, Georgia Milani, Georgia

(01:11):
Milani Atly's new prime Minister, Gia Milan. That's what I
was waiting for. You put some Italian on it. Yeah,
spice up that meat a ball. So since since she's
been the head of the Brothers of Italy Party, which
is funny because what I think of the Brothers of Italy,

(01:32):
I just think of Mario and Luigi. Obviously, that's there,
that's what most people think. So but Marco and Luigi
also fascists, so well, they're monarchists. Yeah, they're monarchists. They
specifically served Princess So so Bowser, who's the girl boss
is Bowser is your standard issue left wing polit bureau

(01:58):
chief type leader. Whereas what Mario and Luigi are doing,
like Mussolini is installing a royal in power, is taking
its Essentially every Mario game is recreating the March on Rome.
I have like ten pages to get through. Stol come
into it. So its for the head of the Brothers

(02:21):
of Italy Party, a party with direct lineage from the
fascist Italian Social Movement, and Melani herself has been on
camera praising figures like Mussolini, uh and until very recently
the Brothers of Italy Party, besides being a very pro
plumbing we're we're pretty on the we're pretty on the
fridges of Italian volunteer. Just four years ago, the party

(02:45):
won only four percent of the votes in the last election,
and now it's become Italy's largest political party, claiming the
greatest percentage of the vote in the last month's election.
So today we're gonna talk about UH Millennia is what
what she believes, what she kind of what what her
rhetoric is, and then also the types of how the

(03:09):
types of ways that media has been framing her relation
to fascism, because there's definitely been this perception that like
liberal feminists and mainstream media have been kind of soft
on Melanie because she's the first woman prime minister of
Italy UM and they have they've kind of framed her
ascension to power and like a girl boss, go get

(03:30):
it sort of way, and have been downplaying her more
fascist views. So we're gonna talk about kind of where
this perception comes from, the few ways where it's kind
of correct, and some of the ways where it's I
think a little off base. To start off with this,
one of the kind of one of the biggest things
that UH pushed this perception into the forefront was a

(03:52):
tweet from Political Europe accompanying an article now that this
this tweet, sorry, thank you, thank you, UM And because
I hate basing our research off of things that are
just on Twitter. This tweet has been referenced a lot
on like television, UM on like news, and like News

(04:12):
TV has been using this tweet a lot as well.
This is this kind of shaped the way that discussions
happening on a national stage, even off Twitter. Um but
the tweet. The tweet reads in a fifteen year old
school girl went to join her local branch of the
far right Youth Front in Rome. The all male group

(04:33):
of radicals met her with amusement. Thirty years later, Georgia
Milani is now on course to become Italy's first female
prime minister. So the way that frameor works is like, yeah,
this this little girl wanted to join her Nazi club
and it was and now she's finally private minister, the

(04:55):
first one. And so yes, obviously this is very cringe
e um not not great framing. A lot of good
girl Hitler jokes, even picked up presidents. Listen, I'm no really,
I'm happy Wow a girl president. How progressive? And so

(05:16):
takes venture brothers Uh no uncritical support, it's just just
support to venture brothers. Um. So takes like like that,
like what like what we just heard a dean of
ventures say? Kind of kind of spawned a big slew
of of comments. You know, I'm just gonna read, read,

(05:38):
read some of the stuff that the people have been
saying in response to stuff like that Political Europe a
piece quote begging liberals to stop praising girl Bossellini for
being brave enough to shatter the glass ceiling in the
neo fascist parties she's joined, and like, why is media
treating this as a freaking girl boss story? The girl
bossification of Georgia mL has been interesting to watch. Liberals

(06:03):
will literally stand anybody. So there's a lot of a
lot of takes like that have been have been have
been going around. There's there's been extremely viral viral tweets
getting hundreds of thousands of of likes, thousands of thousands
retweets and shares, stuff getting referenced on national TV all
kind of about this, you know, people complaining the takes

(06:26):
from Political Europe and and other other kind of various
soft headlines emphasizing the girl boss nature being like the
sweet little girl defies the odds and grows up to
be the first female Mussolini. So, like, some of these
jokes are pretty funny. I think I think they're they're funny. Um,
they're fine. There's oh. Probably the worst one of these

(06:48):
takes that I found that still got hundreds of retweets
and thousands of likes was quote the American right and
the American left. The aesthetics are different, but the effect
is the same. Porch for the rising tide of fascism.
Communists are the only people now as in the past,
who truly opposed fashion fare for fox sake is true

(07:17):
for those of you following along time. No, yeah, there
was a terrible Megan McCain tweet, which is very funny
because people definitely wish we'll talk about the Megan McCain
can't wait I have, Yes, well, we'll talk about our
good friend Megan McCain. But yeah, so you know Italy's
Italy elected their first female Mussolini. Um in a remarkable

(07:40):
victory for both girl power and diversity in politics and people. People. Uh,
people had some good japes. So the other the other
kind of big thing that caused this perception that that
like that, like the liberals will literally stand anybody. The

(08:00):
other big thing I kind of caused that was, uh,
some viral quotes from Hillary Clinton, uh talking talking about
the the rule of of women in politics and referencing Milani.
So some remarks from Hillary Clinton published in Italy last September.

(08:23):
I think it was that. I think it was that
like the Venice of Film Festival. Actually, um So, some
some quotes from an interview that she gave at the
Venice Film Festival went viral. Um mostly because tweets included
to two small clips of of these quotes when she
was talking about both women in politics and uh, Georgie, George, Gia, Georgia,

(08:46):
You're doing great, buddy. Multiple viral tweets circulated, mostly with
two short quotes from Clinton getting the majority of attention, saying, quote,
the election of the first woman prime minister in a
country always represents a break with the past and is
certainly a good thing unquote, and a second quote being
every time a woman is elected to head of state

(09:07):
or government that is a step forward unquote. Um. Obviously,
those takes, in anough of themselves, not very good. I
don't think there's a good opinions. UM. Shocking, shocking that
we are going to criticize the statement from Hillary Clinton.
This is this is rare for us. Um. It's you know,

(09:27):
it's it's I'm I'm surprised as well. But um, these
kind of are slightly cherry picked from a larger section
of this interview discussing women in government and how the
far right is starting to use tokenized women to uphold
patriarchy and conservatism. So the first quote is taken from
this from a translation of an interview that that that

(09:50):
Clinton did at the Venice Film Festival in September, prior
to Mlanni's apparent victory in the Italian elections in September.
So she'd do it in Italian. She speak Italian, you know,
but it was only published in Italian, so we're translating
from Italian back into English, double translation. But the so

(10:15):
in a section of the interview talking about the increase
of women in governmental leadership, Roles, a translation from her
remarks in the larger section of this interview reads, quote,
the election of the first woman prime minister in a
country always represents a break with the past and is
certainly a good thing. But then, as with any leader,
woman or man, she must be judged by what she does.

(10:35):
I never agreed with Margaret Thatcher, but I admired her
determination clearly than the ideas are voted for. I admired
her determinating stamp on the neck of the working class.
Funck Off also does does she really oppose Margaret Thatcher's policies. Yeah,
I don't know. I don't know if I believe that
one that lady is dead in the world is better

(10:57):
for it and girl power, Yes, of course. Do you
think she effectively uti let grow power by funneling money
to illegal paramilitary des squads in Northern Ireland? I don't
know about that. There's this thing that you get with
like people talking about all of these ghouls where and
it's specifically like a centrist thing where it's like, well,

(11:19):
certain things are just admirable traits, no matter about who
has them, and you can admire that trade. And it's like, no,
it's it's not like there were a lot of men
in the SS who you know, we're we're willing to
do things that you would call brave, but it doesn't
mean you have to consider them admirable. I think you
don't have to have respect for you don't have to
hand into the Nazis exactly like just certain people. Yeah, yeah,

(11:44):
the contribution to the world is bad. You can stop
stop that uger Thatcher being a good example. I have
kind of the same thoughts on the inclusion of Todet
inside the new Mario Kart games. It's just really it's
it's just your signifying it, but it's not actually a
step forward for the toad race. It's um So. In
the next section of the interview, Clinton also has come

(12:09):
out against work mario'cut. The next section, Clinton also acknowledges
a conservative women politicians role in upholding patriarchal government, saying, quote,
women on the right are protected by patriarchy because they
are often the first to support the fundamental pillars of
male power and privilege. Today in America, the right wing
leaders are very much against abortion. Um So, she she

(12:32):
did like it was part of this section talking about
how women who are on the right and are running
is concerned of politicians actually support all of the all
the things that keep patriarchy alive and blah blah blah
blah blah blah blah. Well, it's it's true centrism, right.
It's half of a good take and half of a
terrible exactly exactly so so yeah, so our snippets of

(12:55):
her comments embarrassing rewomen being a break from the past
always been a good thing. Yes, most certainly. M Are
they taken out of context enough to change the scope
of what's being said? I suppose that's the subjective. Um.
But I just thought that's interesting that there was very
select few quotes that were getting a whole bunch of traction,
and her larger statements are actually slightly more interesting. Article.

(13:18):
Don't don't do the Alex Jones ship of getting mad
at a headline? Yeah, six seconds, Like, come on, people,
you have to be better than this. And I think still,
you know, I see the same thing whenever I'm playing
Mario Sunshine and there's the graffiti. Um, you can you
can get mad at just saying it's the graffiti all over? Definitely,

(13:40):
no pasa. You can get mad about that. But once
you actually start learning how Bowser Jr. Was treated as
a kid, it's it's there's actually more, there's more that
you actually can understand about what's going on and what
leads to that behavior from Bowser Jr. Very identifiable. Everybody
understands those references. Garrett, good work. Yeah. I just want
to say that there is only one square in Italy

(14:02):
that matters, and that is piet Saliretto. And you can
you can google it. I just I love the juxtaposition
of Garrison struggling over every single word that's in the
in the neighborhood of Italy, and then James just perfectly saying,
some fucking Italian ship. My Italian is bad. My Italian
comes exclusively. Your Italian is much better than anyone else.

(14:25):
Here's maybe I know I swear, I swear other managed
bandex is. I know a couple of curse words from
watching my uncle's play pool when I was a kid.
But that's about all I've got. I rely on that
hand gesture, which works very well, and hand gestures are
eight percent of Italian. Yeah, yes, it's true. Okay, So now,
having now exhausted every conceivable Italian joke, we could proceed

(14:45):
with the spirit. We can actually proceed with an ad break.
Do you do you know what else is in supportive
anti Italian racism? Who won't kill miss Lenian hang him
upside down in a square? I mean probably the current
Prime Minister of Yeah, that's true. Also probably these advertisers. Okay,

(15:14):
and we are back. So there was there has been
this kind of perception that the media kind of by
and large dropped the ball on this one, and this
element was pretty widespread among leftists that the kind of
there was a lot of emphasis on the the breaking
the fascist glass of ceiling and less on the fascist part.

(15:35):
There was even people like the MSNBC hosts Meddi Hassan
who ran a whole segment on his show about kind
of mainstream liberal media, let's downplaying the fascistic elements of
milani uh in headlines in favor of the girl power angle.
What's been so depressing. It's to see so much of

(15:56):
the quote unquote liberal media, the mainstream media, the m
s M giving a pass to Maloney or playing down
on her and her party's fascist roots, focusing more on
the fact that she's female and less on the fact
that she's you know, fascistic. That has been deeply, deeply
depressing to see. There was the Washington Post headline, Georgia

(16:18):
Maloney could become Italy's first female prime minister. Here's what
to know. Now, here's what you wouldn't know from that headline.
You wouldn't know that she has ties to fascism, but hey,
she's female. There was the headline in the Financial Times.

(16:38):
We can pull that up as well. Likely victory for
Italian right portends risks, but no lurch into extremism. Don't worry,
no lurch to extremism, even though they just elected card
carrying extremists. But still hers is a heartwarming tale, isn't it?
I kid you not? This was the tweet from Political Europe.
Let's pull up the tweet from Political Europe. In July nine,

(17:00):
a fifteen year old school girl rang the doorbell at
a local branch of the Youth Front, a far right
movement in Rome, and asked to be let in this
weekend that same schoolgirl could become Italy's next prime minister. Wow,
forget the fascism, forget the fascism, focus on the inspiration there.

(17:21):
Then there was this op ed in the New York Times,
Georgia Maloney is extreme, but she's no tyrant. Well that's
all right. Then, at least she's not a tyrant. There
was this OpEd in The Atlantic, which argued that the
most immediate concern about Italy's new government is not any
threat to the country's democratic institution. Still less a return
to fascism. Did you notice a trend? Yet It's not

(17:42):
as bad as you think. This isn't really fascism, So
we'll we'll talk a bit more about media coverage of
Milani's election in a bit and how I think some
people are kind of desperate to see the stupid Democrat
Libs shill for fascism trope, especially with the whole girl
buss thing that they actually kind of miss how the
framing of Milanni's fascist ties has been perceived on a

(18:05):
broad scale. But first I want to get into who
she actually is, what her views are, and what her
election means. So it leaves a home. Italy is home
to sixty million people well with Robin, and it's continental

(18:26):
Europe's third largest economy. When it comes to the actual election,
the right wing coalition that Melani led one around of
the vote, with Melani's Brothers of Italy party getting around
twenty for the Senate race. So in all around three
out of four voters did not vote for Melani and

(18:47):
one in three didn't even vote at all, no surprise there,
But overall that means like only one in six Italian
adults voted for the Brothers of Italy party. Uh, and
that that does that does make them the biggest party
in the new parliament, but it's long term legitimacy is
still kind of in question because she was leading a

(19:07):
larger right wing block, but the but the actual party
that she's in and leads got like the vote, so
it's it's right, it's I think that's an important perspective
on like how long she'll actually stay in power. Italian
politics are kind of known for their kind of residing
government not lasting very long. There's there's usually a pretty

(19:30):
high like turnover rate, so we'll see. Um, yeah, they
it's an interesting composition right of like like moderate moderate
ish right wing people and then like some more hardcore
like no that it's the people who used to be
the League of the North, I think of the second

(19:51):
largest party, so it's not like a homogeneous block that
she's in charge of. Be kind of interesting to see
how they hold together. Yeah, and I think Melanie can
be an example of what political scientists called gender washing,
when when female politicians adopt a non threatening image to
blunt the force of their extremism. I think you can

(20:13):
see this as well with Daisy inside Mario Kart for
the for the Wei, extremely brutal character play style, very brawley,
but you know she acts very nice and that. Yeah,
she's just like just powers through other other carts on
the track. Um and it's it's It leads to this
slightly war perception of what Daisy actually does. Um So

(20:37):
and Melanie's signature look involves flowing outfits and pastel shades,
kind of like Princess Peach um and uninformed foreigners. Her
asthetic could look like female empowerment. She poses as like
a defender of women, even though her party has rolled
back women's rights. Just like in uh the two US
and six Princess Peach game, she was did brutal suppression

(20:59):
of protests around them ushroom Kingdom. So. David Broder, author
of Mussolini's Grandchildren, Fascism and Contemporary Italy, wrote in Political
Europe Get Funny. It's a very different take from Political
Europe and this one uh quote. Milani owes much more
to the moderate forces in what Italians call the center

(21:19):
right Alliance. They've allowed her the opportunity to present herself
as part of the main stream, not just because she's
been softening her policies, at least in presentation, but also
because the center right politicians jumping on her bandwag and
has given her of an eer of respectability and credibility. Um.
You can see this in Super Passionatest Brawl when Warrio

(21:42):
shows up a biker outfit, not wearing the regular Italian
uniform and they just let him play like Mario Luigi
are wearing their proper outfit and Warrior just like showed
up in like like a leather jacket and like ripped shorts.
That's not okay, but it gave him the veneer of respectability.
But because others allowed it to take place kind of

(22:02):
kind of the same thing here with Milani. At the
same time, attempts by the main like center left rivals
to make the election about this kind of ghost of
fascism uh spreading again through Milani have proved unsuccessful. Voters
by enlarged and did not buy the narrative kind of
that that the left was trying to push that Milanni
was this reincarnation of fascism. They just it just that

(22:24):
that they were not. They were not convinced enough to
affect the election results in any in any meaningful way. Um.
Same way, Nintendo is not convinced that putting Walluiji in
the new Smash Bros. Will actually lead to more people
buying the game. Italian essayist Roberto Slavinio wrote, quote, the
far right can succeed in Italy because the left has failed,

(22:45):
exactly as in much of the world, to offer credible
visions or strategies. The left asks people to vote against
the right, but it lacks the political vision or an
economic alternative. And I think these are all the kind
of factors that actually led Milani to win this election.
Should we talk a little bit about the sort of
democratic party like five Star Alliance things? That was sure

(23:08):
if you want to do like t ld R on
that that would be great. So alright, long ago in
a galaxy far far away, Italy had a very very
large and powerful left um and then when the Soviet
Union fell so that they had the Communist Party. The
Comunist Party was like one of the most powerful communist
parties in the world. That wasn't like a sort of
like dictorial ruling party. But when the Soviet, like when

(23:31):
the USSR felt it like voted dissolve, itself basically became
the Democratic Party, and all of their sort of militant
like much of the militants basically turned into Libs, and
you know, I mean, and the Italian left like hell
together for kind of a long time after that because
they had you know that there's there there's a very
long tradition is sort of an extra parliamentary left and

(23:51):
like tartically an anarchist left in Italy, but like the
modern I don't know, it's kind of a ship show
like in in terms of actual party politics, like there's
a there was this thing called the Five Stars Movements,
which was like kind of like basically AstroTurf by Abilionaire.
It was just like very weird, very like early two
thousand tens party that was like doing the whole sort

(24:15):
of like we're going to do direct democracy by like
online polls things. It has just like really weird mish
match like the main social Democratic for us. Yeah, well
sort of, but like they're very weird, like like I
don't know, you'll you'll get things from them, like okay,
we want like like they're they're not a normal social
democratic party right there, closing to like the Pirate Party,
but like way weirder. Like so you you'll you'll you'll

(24:36):
get people in this party who are like you know,
who who were who are like you know, sort of
like old school like like leftist militants. Because this is
where sort of like the energy was going right, but
also like there's like anti vaxers in it. It was
just it was just really weird iological like sort of mishmash.
And then when they sort of got into power, like
none of these people have ever been in politics before,
and so like you know, you'd get someone who was

(24:56):
like the head of garbage collection, right, who's from this party,
and they have no fucking idea how to collect garbage, right,
and it was it's it's this real ship show because
like you know, and then you have the Democratic Party,
which are basically sort of just like lib hacks at
this point. And this meant that, like you know, and
they eventually sort of aligned with each other to try
to keep like other like fascist basically like right wing

(25:18):
groups out of power. But they like they also they
also like had an alliance for a little bit with
one of the right wing parties. It's it's an incredibly
like bizarre story ends like honestly like deserves like its
own episode one day. But yeah, yeah, they're they're very weird.
They're not in effective left thing at all. They're just

(25:39):
very very sort of like mishmash, confused populist thing, and
it didn't like they yeah, like they definitely did not
sort of like succeed in preventing an alternative, etcetera, etcetera.
It was, I don't know, kind of a disaster. Yeah,
Italy's like it's worth noting as well. I think that,
like anti fascism is, it is sort of baked in

(26:00):
to the myth of the Italian Republic, right, like the
that's what the republic rests are, that's where it comes from.
That's creation myth. But like much in the same way
as people living in the United States will be familiar
with how these creation miss kind of lose all relevancy
apart from some kind of totemic, meaning like their repetition

(26:21):
has some kind of linked to that, but they don't
really have any any value in the contemporary discourse in
terms of animating and the way people act. I think
you could say that that's happened in Italy, right Like
people talk about people in institutions talk about anti fascism
as where they come from and its foundational to it
leaves democracy, But it's been so subsumed into structures of
power that it that institutional discussion of anti fascism has

(26:44):
lost its relevance from like the street fighting, like anti
fascism that created the Republic in the first place, So
that concept is kind of defunct along with like Italian
liberals have always walked hand in hand with like fish
and interests and the right wing right, like from even
previous to fascism, like there was a quote unquote liberal monarchy, right,

(27:08):
So Italian liberalism isn't necessarily this anti authoritarian force. It
was briefly like it got made to be briefly by
the organized working class movement, but it hasn't been and
it's going back to not being. Yeah, I mean, I
think I now think we should may as well get
into milani is actual like views and what she actually
believes in this passes, which you mean, what she actually

(27:30):
believes in this pass is maybe slightly different things. Um,
but we'll we'll, we'll at least at least start. So
Milani's party, the Brothers of Italy Party, was formed to
quote carry forth the spirit and legacy unquote of the
Italian Social Movement or the m s I the end,

(27:51):
and the the m s I is the descendant of
Mussolini's National Fascist Party. It's it's it's like a has
a direct lineage. They even have the flame, right, they
are still using the same logo, which is the flame
on his tomb. I think that's where it comes from,
right Yeah. So uh Milani has said that quote LGBT

(28:16):
lobbies are out there to harm the women and and
they're and they're attacking the family by destroying gender identity. Um.
She's made statements about George Soros, calling him an international speculator.
More on more on that. In the sec UH he

(28:36):
says that that that Soros finances global mass immigration that
threatens a great replacement of white native born Italians. Um.
Milani shows affinity for other kind of authoritarian strong men,
like the the the marine Lee Penn who's the leader
of the of the National Rally Party in France. So

(28:59):
strong woman and that's not a man. It's part of
this section on strong men, like political political strong men.
She's she's she's previously supported as Joe Rogan taught me,
Garrison strong times, mega hard men and also what I've

(29:21):
learned from Matt Well, she's what is a woman? So yeah,
strong man. But like Malani's previously supported Putin, although she's
kind of lowered that enthusiasm since the invasion of Ukraine.
She has she does have a pro Ukraine position on
that publicly, um but she's expressed kind of affinity for

(29:42):
the types of other fascist leaders across Europe. We've see
in Sweden, we've see in Poland, we've seen Hungary's kind
of aligned aligned herself with some of some of that
kind of trend inside of Europe. Milani wants to ban
same sex couples from adopting children and possibly dissolved same
sex couples legal parentage for the children that they've already adopted.
Her party has sought to ban a cartoon featuring a

(30:05):
bear with two mothers, arguing that kids should not be
seeing same sex adoption as natural or normal because it's
not um so basic kind of right wings censorship of
materials that they don't like. I don't think children should
be allowed to watch cartoons with bears in them. Okay,
good for you. It's going to reduce their readiness when

(30:28):
it becomes time to fight the bears. But Milannia also
wants to ban gay Italians from traveling elsewhere for surrogacy.
Um so like so like they can't they can't leave
the country to get to get like to have them
become parents and return less like it's it's this, it's this,
it's this whole whole thing. I'm gonna read a quote

(30:51):
from Ruth bend Guite, a professor of history and Italian
studies at New York University. Quote, since she has tweeted
repeatedly that Italian identity is being deliver really erased by
globalists such as Soros and European Union officials who have
conspired to unleash quote uncontrollable mass migration. Um. So normal

(31:13):
normal stuff there and more on so so in in
a in a speech, in a few speeches, and repeatedly
she refers to financial speculators and has called people like
George Soros an international speculator. Um. And you know when
when she says, uh, financial speculators, I don't think she

(31:37):
actually means just people who speculated about finances. I think
she means something slightly different. Michael bench Laws, who is
kind of history political person who works for NBC MSNBCPPS,
had a really good, uh thread on on this, and
I think it's important, like this is this is a
mainstream media guy, like this is not coming from and

(32:00):
t FA one six one on Twitter this is like
coming from like like in terms of like mainstream media
actually talking about this. Uh quote. The new Italian Prime
Minister says that quote, we will never be slaves at
the mercy of financial speculators sounds just like nineteen thirties
in Italy and Germany. Uh No, thanks for the memories

(32:20):
Mussolini enjoyed publicly referring to Jewish people as financial speculators
who needed to be controlled. When a fascist leader speaks,
whether it be in Europe or America, never brush aside
what you are hearing as meaningless rhetoric. Do not fail
to learn from the history of the nineteen thirties. History
of the nineteen shows us that fascist leaders in the

(32:40):
United States have been very eager to link us and
pool resources, often in secret, with fascist leaders in Europe.
Monitor carefully and beware, and please never take it at
face value when and if fascist leaders in America and
Europe tell you that they have no personal or political
animists towards Jews or other mino any groups in society.

(33:01):
Too many examples in history tells us the opposite. Unquote.
So that is like you know, regular MSNBC NBC people
being like hey, when she says this thing she reads
Jews should should should. We also talk about like the
way parts of like the left on Twitter reacted to this,
and also the sort of history of like how some

(33:23):
people were like, oh wow, she's calling out the capitalists.
That's not a lot of this is like you guys
are maybe the doubt people who have ever lived like
she immediately like acted the know she like, this is
the same thing we see with people like like Dugan
even right what she's saying, She's not saying that, you know,

(33:43):
international capital is bad because it hurts the poor people
or workers. She's she's mad about it because it's because
it's a threat to traditional identities. It's it's it's it's
a threat to the way that you want the the
idea of the family, it's the way it's it's it's
it's threatening all of these things that are about your

(34:03):
like god, family, country, brotherhood, ship. It's not about actual
poor people, working class people at all. That's not that's
not what it is. It's it's not a good criticism
of capitalist modernity just to just to propose another form
of more like authoritarian capitalist modernity. It's it's, it's it's
not it's not good. Um, the original fascists in Italy

(34:27):
did the same thing when they denounced like British um placrats.
It's just it's it's not it's not the it's not
a good critique of capitalists of well, and we should
point out to that. Like like so Mateo Savini, who
was like the former like he basically until the selection,
he was like the guy he was in charge of
the right wing. Like he he's a guy who got

(34:48):
like arrested basically for trying to sink a migrant boat.
Like so that's actually this guys, he sucks um And
but he he would do this like pft more expeciitly.
He would you know, like specifically used Marxist terminal need
to push right wing stuff. So he he he had
a speech where he talked about like the reserve army
of labor, which is that this concept of Marxism that's
about like basically Mark Mark is arguing that like, like

(35:10):
capitalism inherently produces this like quote unquote like reserve army
of labor, like industrial army of labor, which is like
an enormous mass of people who are unemployed. You've been
spit out of the labor process, and you know, okay,
and like and and and and like Mark Marx is
like Marx is pro these people, which is the very
important thing. He's like, these people are part of the pouletariat,

(35:30):
but they've been spit out of like like the capital
wage relation to spit them out. And they're yeah, they're
they're they're they're to sort of like regulate like wages
and stuff happens. But also they're people who have just
been sort of like disfranchise, et etcetera. Salvini when he
talks about the reserve army of labor specifically, is like
there is a reserve army of labor. Uh. These people
are immigrants to North Africa and like the like the

(35:51):
elites are like shipping these people into Italy to like
destroy your jobs. And it is it is again very
very important that you understand. This is what he like
when he's using the marks term, he is using it.
He is using it marks racism and not like Mark's
anti capitalism. And you you need to be able to
tell what difference between these two things, because yeah, like

(36:12):
especially in time poltics like this this is the thing
that happens, like people people will use like even literally
explicitly stuff that is from Marx, but they will use
it to be like we need to like machine gun
every like boat of small children trying to fite Libya.
Like it's like cherry yeah, cherry picking these these bits
of Marxism and arranging them into a racist as fuck

(36:33):
college that you used to justify your bagotry. It's fashion.
It did that the first time, it's doing it again then.
And the other thing that kind of that is that's notable.
In case people have not have not seen it. There's
been uh lots of video going around of of Melani
openly praising um Mussolini, saying, quote, I believe MUSSLINI was

(36:56):
a good politician. Everything he did he did for Italy
and they have been no other politicians like him in
the past fifty years. That now. These interviews all come
from the mid nineties. She has since said that her
opinions on Mussolini have changed. She has nuts she has
not said what her opinions have changed to she changed,

(37:21):
but this was this was These interviews all come from
when she was when she was a young plucky girl
getting into the boy's Nazi club of and leading the
youth wing of a fascist party founded by veterans of
Musolini's dictatorship. UM. Since since her her own modern party,
the Brothers of Italy, which was again started emerged from

(37:44):
the fascist National Alliance, which grew out of the Italian
Social Movement, which was founded by Mussolini regime officials. UM,
and she still uses the same logo for her current
Mario Luigian Sorry Brothers of Italy party. UM. So yeah,
let's have let's have one more ad break and then
we'll talk about how mainstream media has been talking about

(38:05):
the new girl Boss Mussolini and we are back. Oh,
I'm so excited. I'm so excited. So we're actually gonna talk.
I'm first gonna read some stuff from the intercept, just

(38:26):
not I would not say is actually mainstream media. It's
a little bit outside of that. But it sets a
good stage for the rest of the stuff that we
will be talking about, which actually is dealing with how
mainstream media has been framing uh Milani's election. So quote,
the media got this right much of the time, giving
predominant building to Melanie's fall right nationalism, but numerous English

(38:48):
language headlines focused solely on her being Italy's first woman
prime minister is tempting to say that her position as
a woman leader should be considered irrelevant given her and
her parties via anti immigrant, nationalist, racist, anti l g
B t Q plus policies, but ignoring her womanhood misses
some crucial points about her political ideology. Being a woman,

(39:09):
a white woman that is, is not in conflict with
Milanni's fascism. White supremacy has always relied on active enforcement
by white women, especially when it comes to upholding racist,
po nationalist narratives. So yeah, I think that that's that's
that's a good stage for kind of how every other

(39:29):
headline and article we're going to talk about here. Let's
start with The Guardian. The Guardian ran a piece saying, quote,
the election of Italy's fascist adjacent Georgia Milani is a
public reminder that women can be just as awful as men.
That's a good headline. And this was was was this

(39:51):
was the Guardian to us the Guardian UK. This was
Guardian UK. Yeah, fashionist and this and this article was
Jeff Guardian and this this article is actually directly in
opposition to Australia's a Sky News headline Georgia. Milani is
not a fascist. Um this is this is just directly

(40:14):
in opposition to this Sky News article, which is kind
of funny. Um uh NPRS morning edition went with quote
a far right group with neo fascist roots wins big
in Italy's election. Um a CBS Mornings host said, Milani
rejects the label of fascism while embracing its symbols, just
its symbols, just you know, like they were specially talking

(40:37):
about like the actual like iconography that they directly left
like this, like the slogans like brotherhood, God, country type things,
and like like the logo and it's it was a
part actually a part of a larger thing around around fascism. Look,
we'll actually get bit more into that on our Tucker
Carlson's section. Oh good. The Washington Post headlined quote, the
mainstreaming of the West's far right is complete and then

(41:02):
opened that article was saying in the land that invented fascism,
the far right is back in power. Milani has a
lengthy record of extremist rhetoric, has embraced the white supremacist
narrative of the great Replacement theory, and has engaged in
frequent dog whistling to a radical base. The Atlantic had
a good piece titled the Return of Fascism in Italy um,

(41:27):
saying that the Brothers of Italy, which Milanni has led since,
has an underlying and sinister familiarity. The party formed a
decade ago to carry on the spirit and legacy of
the extreme right in Italy, which dates back to the
Italian Social Movement, the party that formed in place of
the National Fascist Party, which was banned after World War Two. Now,
just weeks before the one d anniversary of the March

(41:50):
on Rome, the October nineteen event that put Musolini in power,
Italy may have a former Italian Social Movement activist for
its prime minister and a government rooted in fascism. So
that's like overall, there was a lot of really good
Like most of the of the extremely reference or viral

(42:10):
kind of articles on this had decent headlines and decent
content actually emphasizing the fascist nature. Now it's funny because
the Atlantic had this Return of Fascism in Italy one
but The Atlantic also ran an op ed piece titled
Melanie's election Win is not a vote for Fascism, which
later changed its title to Italians didn't exactly vote for

(42:33):
fascism Um, which to its credit, still discusses uh Melani's
links to fascism, but it questioned how much power she
actually will have to enact said fascism um. But so
there was there was some like both sides and going
on on some A lot of these news outlets, they'll
put one up, they'll put one piece out that's actually

(42:54):
very good about centering the fascist rhetoric, another one being
like she may be a fascion, but it's not like
she could do much and she's a woman. I think
this is kind of like I think, I think it's
just kind of a post JA six thing. Like I
I think if this had happened in I don't think
the LA media would have been like as willing to

(43:15):
just do this. Absolutely that is that is undoubtedly true. Um.
I think I think they kind of, like like liberals
in general, kind of were shaking out of their complacency
when they're sort of like beautiful symbols were under like
finally actually came under attack and not just like US.
Routers ran a confusing headline titled nationalist Milani set to

(43:38):
smash Italy's glass sea leg and become premier, which is
really weird. She just just sounds super weird nationalist Malany
smashes glass sea like it's just like it's like, yeah,
I guess the cos it's it's what. That was one
of the weirder headlines because it still has nationalists in it,

(44:00):
but it has the whole glass stealing bit, which is
just like why there was another Guardian UK piece uh
that had the headline uh at Italy's Georgia Melani is
no Mussolini, but she may be a Trump, which is
an interesting article. Um it. It has some a lot

(44:20):
of it's actually pretty reasonable, uh, and it emphasizes her
more recent comments trying to align herself more with the
modern US Republican Party rather than any kind of form
of nineteen thirties style fascism quote, hawkish on foreign policies,
orthodox on economic policies, nostalgic nationalists, and inimical to civil liberties.
This right wing politics is illiberal at heart, but it

(44:44):
would aim for respectability in what used to be called
the establishment, including by not undermining the rule of law
in the way that Hungarian Prime Minister Victor Orban has
done unquote. So there, it's kind of I do like
the there is some things that are worth we're thinking

(45:05):
about in terms of how she has a lot in
the past year tried to align herself more with the
modern Republican Party in the States, which still is as
we discussed the show, a lot is kind of getting
more fashion I would say, so, so I will say
it is has I don't know if you're gonna talk
about this, but it has been very funny. She managed

(45:26):
to sort of like lose like the like really hardline
like American right wingers because she did some sort of
like pronato e things and so now there's like like
so like like Snovich and a whole bunch of other
people like that were posting about how like she's like
an op and she was part of some I don't
can't remember. I don't even I don't. I don't even
think even believes that because I don't. I don't. I've

(45:48):
seen much more people be very enthusiastic about her than
people being critical of her who are on the fashionst
rite in the States. Yeah, I mean, I don't know,
like there's there's definitely was especially like there's a whole
thing about her being like remember the ASP Institute but
I think was happening for like, I don't know, maybe
maybe that maybe that's just a thing like right after
she got like, I don't I don't know. I mean

(46:09):
on kind of on this note of of her trying
to align more with like modern United States conservatism. UM.
In one of their newsletters, Political included that Melanie has
appeared at see Pack this past year on the National
Prayer Breakfast and uh and it did did join the
Aspen Institute in but she and Steve Bannon were films

(46:30):
strategizing together as far back and Bannon instead of her
back then quote you put a reasonable face on right
wing populism, you will get elected. UM. So her and
Bannon have been strategizing for years. She's at Sepack, uh.
This past year. She gave a speech there that Tucker
was very enthusiastic about. In his segment about her. That

(46:53):
Political newsletter that included the bits about Bannon and Spack
also had I think this line, which sums up some
of my thoughts on this quote. You've already read in
dozens of headlines that Milani will be Italy's most far
right leader since Miscellani. But don't fall for the trap
of reducing this far right firebrand too simple labels like
the Italian Donald Trump, or Victor or band or Marine

(47:15):
Lepen global takeaway. Right wing populism is getting smarter. It
could have died off with trump selection loss or Boris
Johnson's humiliating ejection from Downing Street, but that isn't happening.
So I have I have a few more of a
few more things here which will lead into kind of
how the right has been talking about this um. There

(47:37):
was a scene. There was a scene an article on
the victory that headlined the conditions are perfect for a
populist resurgence in Europe, which also referenced the anti immigration
Sweden Democrats, who are expected to play a major role
in the new government. After winning the second largest share
of seats in the general election last month. The party
has been now mainstreamed and initially had its roots in

(48:00):
very strict neo Nazism. Overall, I was less happy with
some of the New York Times headlines relating to Milani's election.
There was there was the the cheeky headline Georgia Milani
is extreme, but She's no tyrant, which is of again
a weird way to frame a headline. Um, but even

(48:20):
that peace still opens with this line saying, quote, it
happened here again nearly one hundred years since the March
on Rome, Italy on Sunday voted in a right wing
coalition headed by a party directly descended from Mussolini's fascist regime.
Mrs Milani is the first post fascist leader to win
a national election in Italy after World War Two, and

(48:42):
her party is the heir to the Italian Social Movement,
the reincarnation of the long dissolved and constitutionally banned Fascist party.
So weird headline still it includes stuff in the article.
But in the age of social media and honestly on
news media, headlines are way more important. Unfortunate. Um and
there was an actual New York Times article, not just

(49:05):
not just opinion piece, had the headlined Milani wins voting
in Italy and breakthrough for Europe's hard right. Another Times
piece read Europe looks at Italy's Milanni with caution and trepidation. Uh,
Milanni posed to be the country's first far right leader
since Mussolini. So still not the worst, not the best

(49:27):
from the New York Times, which you mean no no
shockers there? Um Now? On to kind of the right.
So the right had a really big mix of reactions
based on how the left was talking and liberals were
talking about this. There was a lot of enthusiasm coming
from the right. A lot of people on the right
questioning the fascist framing, being like, I can't believe Megan.

(49:52):
I mean, we can talk about the Megan Bicayan tweet.
Everyone wants a woman in power until it's the conservative
woman in power. This one right bar reporter said quote
calling her Mussolini just because she's Italian is racist, which
is one of the best, one of the best tweets
about this. Laverne Spicer said, so everyone calls Melania fascist,

(50:14):
can anyone offer proof of that? And most most of
people just replied with videos of her prising Mussolini. Um yeah,
will bang you Mussolini picture. Lauren Bobbert had the extremely
bad tweet. This month, Sweden voted for a right wing government.
Now Italy voted for a strong right wing government. The

(50:37):
entire world is beginning to understand that the woke left
does nothing but destroy November eight. November eight is coming
and the USA will fix our House and Senate. Let
freedom rain. Um great great prose there um, just shouting
at Cloud. But I I it is rush. It is

(50:59):
actually super messed up to be praising Sweden's new right
wing government because they're pretty pretty bad. The Wall Street
Journal had the great headline Milani is no fascist, but
can she revive Italy's economy? Um? Yeah, that's now, that
is perfect. That's that's the classic. Well I'm very I'm

(51:22):
very excited in about eight months when the Italian economy
is like it makes the British economy look fucking great
when the West there turnaround, like can some other random
persons save Italy's Yeah, like somebody further to the right,
and they'll just continue to be like, well, maybe it's
good for the economy. The economy I have running in

(51:43):
my Super Mario RPG game is better than the current
UK economy. So again, it's not saying more on that, right.
A Fox News headline in the lead up to the
election read Italy on track to elect first right wing
prime minister since World War Two, first female to hold office.
I really, I really do that. This is one thing
I really need to get people on, Like, is fucking

(52:05):
Sylvia Berlisconi a joke to you? Like the answer should
be yes. But also like come on man like forever.
A few days later, another Fox headline read Milani's Italian
election win renews spotlight on Europe's continued migrant woes. Great, great,

(52:26):
great heading there, that's definitely what we should be focusing on.
And so now onto a friend of the pod, Tucker Carlson.
So on September twenty six, Tucker Carlson ran a fifteen
minute segment titled we live in a fake democracy and
there will be a revolution like Italy. So the segment

(52:47):
was on the election of Melanie and how she's daring
to address the issues that voters really care about but
aren't allowed to talk about, like the attacks on the family, immigration,
the unpopular climate change policies that are ruining the economy,
aren't allowed to talk about. Bill Ascoti has literally been
saying whatever the funk comes into his brain for like

(53:08):
thirty years at this point. That was that was a
big thing of the Tucker segment was that voters have
all these issues they care about, but they're not allowed
to talk about it. It's actually illegal in some places
to talk about this. That's an actual quote from what
he's at um And obviously Tucker offiscated her lings to
Mussolini style fascism while still praising the fascist rhetoric that

(53:29):
Melania espouses. Here is a clip from the segment. She's
not the first person to say this, people have said
it before, but she's just been rewarded for saying it.
That's the point. The population likes it. This is what
they actually want. They're not that worried about global warming.
They don't want open borders. They think the woke stuff
is absurd. They want to say what they think. And

(53:52):
now it's obvious because she just won. And so even
in this country, the people running and benefiting from a
deeply corrupt and doom system are hysterical. Watch the reaction
to that. I want to start today by talking about
a politician on the right who we should all be
worried about, who's on the rise today. A politician who
was brushed off accusations of fascism. What separates us from

(54:15):
let's say, Italy who elected a fascist. She is from
Fascist Fruits, a far right political party whose roots go
back to post World War two neo fascist party that
has its roots in Italian fascism, its roots in Italian fascism.
To find that for us if you would Joe Scarboro, sorry,

(54:38):
you're an idiot, you can't. But the point is fascist
means unacceptable. Whatever this chick is saying, you're not allowed
to agree with. They're very worried that that many Italians
do agree with it, so she has to be completely unacceptable.
Don't read further. She's a fascist. So yeah, that's that sucks,

(54:58):
That's not great. Um M, I don't need to waste
any more time talking about Tucker's segment because it's it's
typical Tucker Carlson stuff. Pretty fascistic, pretty awful Durburg at
the end of every time anyway. Um So yeah. Kind
of the reaction was as one might expect. American right
wing operatives have celebrated her rise to power. For example,

(55:22):
Keith Robert's, head of the Heritage Foundation, drew on some
of the familiar kind of language in terms of and
I'll just I'll just say this. This is what he
said about her victory on Twitter. This can be a trend.
Conservatives everywhere need to define the choice as to what
it is us versus them, everyday people versus globalst elites

(55:45):
shown they hate us, so familiar dog whistles and ship.
But to kind of close this up, I'm actually gonna do, uh,
I'm gonna do a guy deboored quote one of our
favorite philosophers on this. Can we put a little French
on it? Can we of gudor quote? So he he

(56:06):
wrote the situations the Situation's phosopher wrote this in nineteen eight.
Italy sums up the social contradictions of the entire world
as such. It is a laboratory for international counter revolution. Um.
So hilariously they held out longer than the French did.

(56:26):
So well, what what What He's trying to say there
is that it's a way to try out social change
and try out the suppression of like progressive social change. UM.
And it's like a model for the rest of Europe. Um.
Like it's like it's it's this owns like miniature model
that you can try out things and see how they'll

(56:46):
react on a on a grounder European political scale. Um.
And kind of rough in in the in the vein
of that, I'm actually gonna do a quote from one
of the Washington Post articles about what what what, one
of the better articles about Milani to kind of finish
up the types of stuff that I wanted to talk about. So,

(57:06):
if there's been one dominant story in Western politics over
the past decade, it's that the far right is no
longer beyond the pale. Indeed, it has taken over the
right wing mainstream in many countries, including and arguably most significantly,
the United States. In France, the far right has long
been the leading force of the opposition. In Spain, it's

(57:28):
also gained ground in Sweden, a party originally founded by
Neo Nazis and other right wing extremists will now be
the second largest faction in parliament. In Hungary and Poland,
the far right is already in power. So, just in
terms of this overall trend of how people are trying
to mainstream far right things, and how they're getting more

(57:50):
normalized across Europe, in the United States here, and the
types of asthetics that they're using to gain such ground.
Because the Italian voters were not convinced by the attempts
to paint Melani as a reincarnation of Mussolini, the way
that she wrapped her fascism in contemporary US style conservatism
was convincing, and the left did not offer any viable

(58:11):
alternatives to fix the problems that the country is facing.
So she got the vote, which was enough to get
a majority. So yeah, that's that's kind of That's most
of the stuff I have on the girl Boss Mussolini,
Um any any other any other uh comments on how
the rights been talking about this, how the liberals have
been talking about this, how media has or any anything

(58:33):
at all. Before we close up, No, I wish her
the best of getting strung up in the street. It's
very funny to turn pictures of her upside down. People
will tell you it's not funny. It's funny, you know.
I like the seemed to be turning into the nineteen twenties,
but like, tragedy is farce version of it. But this

(58:55):
means we can do it funnier. We can. We can
do it funnier. We can. I'll go to Italy wearing
Mario costumes. That's right, we can. We can do it.
We can do it funnier. It's always possible to be
more funny. Hmm, that's what we striful. So yeah, I'm
still laughing about the Brothers of Italy thing. That's wow,

(59:16):
that's pretty funny. Anyway, Uh, go have fun fighting anthropomorphic
lizards who steal the princess and hang her in a
cage and go race around the mushroom Kingdom on your
way to save her with your brother. Is how I
spend most of my free time in the mushroom Kingdom.
In the mushroom Kingdom, jumping on lizards. Yeah, okay, let's

(59:42):
let's a go. It Could Happen Here is a production
of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media,
visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check
us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources
for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone

(01:00:03):
Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.