November 16, 2023 • 35 mins
Andrew is joined by James to discuss the much misunderstood Luddite movement, how they collectively bargained by rioting, and how the movement reverberated through history
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
The media.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome to it could happen here. I'm Andrew Sage
from YouTube channel Andrewism, joined today by James.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Hi.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
Sorry, I'm doing my own track, Hi Andrew. Yeah, yeah,
I'm excited to hear about something. I don't know what yet,
so it should be a fun adventure.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Yes, Well, today we are doing a little bit of
time traveling. We're gonna embark on a journey to explode
movements of about two hundred years ago that I think
is still quite relevant even today, particularly in our very technological,
fast paced world. So when we put a new James
(00:47):
in the early nineteenth century in England, Great which you
know is a time of great change, of evil, disease
or that jazz.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Yeah, I think I have thrived as a person with
diabetes would have made it approximately a couple of weeks.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Yeah. The Industrial Revolution was in full swinging. It hadn't
quite reached that point yet as far as I know,
but it was transforming the way that people lived and worked.
It was a time of innovation, was also a time
of great uncertainty, and amidst the class and looms and
rise of organization, a group of workers emerged to became
(01:28):
known as the Lerites. They were, you know, some early
adopters ah yes, of resistance, Yes, resistance to the changes
of the Industrial Revolution, and you know for that cardinal
sin they've been missing too preted ever since. So today
we're going to be explaining exactly who the the rights
were and why the actions resonate with us today in
(01:51):
the twenty first century. We'll talk about their history and
their motivations and their bravestand against the relentless march of
capitalist progress. We're also such on some figures, some of
their tactics and the lasting impact they left on history.
But most importantly we'll be covering why they struggle somatters today.
So here we are. You know, in the nineteenth century
(02:13):
Industrial Revolution and soeping through England, British working families were
going through some very tough times as the economy was
in turmoil and unemployment was spreading like wildfire. It really
wasn't a good situation to be in. There was this
never ending war with Napoleon's France. There was Drian resources
and causing what Yorkshire historian Frank Peel described as the
(02:35):
hard pinch of poverty, and to make matters worse, food
was in short supply and prices were shooting up. Not
only were jobs hard to come by, but even putting
basic food on the table was becoming a serious challenge.
So it was a really tough period for these families
and they were feeling that squeeze in every way possible.
So the Lights emerged as a response to these seismic
(02:58):
shifts as a moosely organized group of textile workers and
weavers who healed primarily but not exclusively, from the nottingham
Shire region of England. At the heart of their struggle
was the mechanization of the textile industry. Factories powered by
steam engines and intricate machinery were replacing traditional cottage industries,
(03:21):
leading to unemployment and a decline in working conditions. In
the place of a cottage industry where cloth workers could
work as many or as few hours and days suited them,
the factory had a reseren where workers would work long
hours at dangerous machinery, be fed meager meals, and submit
to the punitive authority of the foremant factory owners were winning.
(03:45):
As I alluded to earlier, the Dites were not blindly
opposed to this idea of progress, as they've been misinterpreted,
but they were seeking to protect their livelihoods and the
quality of their craftsmanship. Many of the original rights were
actually quite savvy when it came to technology. In fact,
some were highly skilled machine operators that ended up smashing
(04:07):
the very machines that they were accustomed to use in
They had no issue with welcoming innovations that made their
lives and their jobs easier, but they had an issue
with the way that the new machinery is being used
by the factory owners to reduce them to mare cogs
in the industrial machine. And they didn't like that factory
(04:27):
owners were using the machinery to kick out They trained
and skilled cloth workers in fear of child laborers and
other lower skilled workers would be easier to exploit. Yeah,
the cloth for these machines produced was of lower quality,
but because it was so cheap to churn out and
there was so much of it, the factory owners were
still toner profit and so that you know, that sucks
(04:48):
for them, which is why the rights to resist these
changes embraced a distinctive form of protest. At the time,
label organizing was label organizing as illegal, so they chose
a suppose even more drastic method of targets in the
newly introduced machines for destruction. Yeah, they were.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
Is it E. P. Thompson who called it collective bargaining
by riot? Yes, yes, I believe so. Yeah, I think
that's an excellent way to understand it. I'm sure we'll
get there. But it's Yeah, it's a means of labor
organizing when labor organizing is illegal.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Indeed, indeed, I mean, if no other options are available
to you, you know, you're pressed against the wall. They
have no other choice.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
So, these these Loodites would gather together in the dead
of the night, usually in secluded areas like forests or hillsides,
to plan their actions. To maintain their secrecy, Blodites adopted
a strict code of silence, making it very difficult for
authorities to infiltrate their ranks. That secrecy was crucial to
(05:57):
their survival and their ability to outwind the authorities, and
so under this code they'd go on and break into
the factories and smash the machinery and occasionally leave an
etching of the infamous ned Lud as a mark of
their presence. Ned Luod, by the way, was a symbol
(06:17):
not their actual leader. He was a legendary weaver who
was said to have been whipped for idleness, so he
smashed two knit in frames in a fit of passion.
More likely, Nedlood didn't exist. He was more of like
a folkloric character, but the Laites named themselves after him
and would call them King Lood and General Luod. Funny enough,
(06:40):
the authorities actually thought he was the ringleader of the
whole operation, so they tried to hunt him down. Meanwhile,
of course the Luddites are jokingly referring to Lud's office
and Sheerwood Forest, and some of the Bloodites would actually
cross dress as Lud's wives during their protests.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Yeah, I do like every time you find an instance
of like cross dressing in history. So it's just amusing
to note that. I guess some people have decided that
like either either like cross dressing or trans people were
invented in like twenty sixteen, not that those two things
are the same, but like we can find literally thousands
of instances of of course trans people and also crossdressing
(07:23):
like as a form of like deliberate sometimes it's transgression.
Sometimes the thing that just people did. But yeah, you
can see it in depictions of the Ladyites like people
even took the time to paint it into their paintings
exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Yeah, but yees, so, I mean the leader wasn't ned
a lot. The leader, well, it really was Earl the
Last movement. The real instigators were just regular on the
ground weavers and craftsmen, folks like, for example, George Mellow,
a weaver from Huddersfield who played a pivotal rule in
(08:00):
organizing the right actions in the West Riding of Yorkshire,
best known for the time that he fatally shot a
mill owner in the balls. Yeah chat move indeed, indeed.
But these actions were not just you know, random acts
(08:22):
of vandalism and violence. They were a desperate plea for change.
In fact, they mainly confined their attacks to manufacturers who
specifically use machines in what they called a fraudulent and
seitful manner to get around standard labor practices. The Lights
wanted machines that made high quality goods, and they wanted
these machines to be run by workers who had gone
(08:42):
through an apprenticeship and got paid decent wages. Those were
really their main concerns, and besides the raids, and the smashing.
They also had a couple other tricks up their sleeves.
They organized public demonstrations, They sent out letters to look
industrialists and government officials to lay out their reasons for
(09:03):
wrecking the machinery. They weren't just smashing for the reason
with no messaging. Yeah, and in different parts of England,
you know, you had different approaches, different stances and different
material conditions. So, for example, in the Midlands of England,
to the rights had the Company of Framework Knitters, which
was this recognized public body that could talk to the
(09:26):
capitalists through named representatives, and so they used that legitimacy
as a recognized institution to back up their demands. But
up in the northwest of England, textile workers didn't have
these established trade institutions, so they used their letters to
push for official recognition as a united group of trades people.
You know, it's like an early union. The demands went
(09:46):
just of course about smashing machines. They also wanted high
min own wages and again an end to childwait labor.
They were playing the long game. And in Yorkshire, you know,
the tone shifts a bit. They were going from letter
writingto making more direct and violent threats against local authorities
(10:07):
who they saw supports in these nasty machines that messed
with the job market the Yorkshire Writes meant business. In fact,
they carried around these sledgehammers that they call the Great Enoch,
named after local blacksmith who had manufactured both the hammers
and also many of the machines they intended to destroy.
(10:27):
As they declared Enoch made them, Enoch shall break them,
which I think is just the division that gives me.
Is like, you know, God of War style, you know,
swinging around this sledgehammer smash of the machines.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Yeah, yeah, like, I mean, they broke some big things, right,
like they weren't. This wasn't like, I know, like some
sort of trivial sabotage like frame breaking is. It's still
a capital crime in the UK, but it's also a
serious feet of strength.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Yes, and I'm going to get into that.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Excellent. Yeah. I love coming from a country with normal laws.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
There's so many. Don't even get me started on strange
laws around the world. I mean, yeah, uring that there
are some really strange strange laws, but yeah, yeah, I'm
sure that could be a whole topic for a whole episode.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
It could be you could suggest that they're not connected
to morality. Perhaps maybe maybe the law and right and
wrong is not the same thing.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Hm, you might be onto something there, Yeah, ponder something
to think about for sure.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
So a lot of these change differences and approaches like
I mentioned, really depend on their material conditions. It also
depended on the background of the workers. Some of them
were frameworkers, some of them are weavers, some of them
were spinners, and so they took on different tactics and
styles depending on what they were experienced with and where
you found them. Of course, they were sending out death
threats to some industrialists as well, and in fact, some
(12:08):
of these industrialists were so worried about let light attacks
that they had secret chambers built into their buildings as
escape plans in case things went south during an attack.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
I could imagine them cowering in their holes. Yeah, just
like as were outside.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Imagine being like, yeah, I'm making excellent choices in life.
I employ hundreds of people, and I've built a secret
hole to hiding when they'll never be trying and kill
me because I've made their lives so shit.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yes, Like I am going to create conditions that are
so terrible. These people are going to get so angry
at me and then I'm just going to make a
place to hide, you know. Yeah, so actually rectifying the
reasons they're angry.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
Yeah, exactly. Like you could simply take the money you
spent on your secret escape patch and distributed to people
who are literally strung link to put food in their
children's mouths. But I guess that's not the logic of capitalism,
is it.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Yeah, that'll be too it'll be too humane.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
Yes, yeah, yeah, you can't let them get you know,
realize that you're afraid of them.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Indeed, for all these tactics, the rights were truly fights,
not only for their own jobs, but also for us,
say in the future of their industry and their communities.
Like regular people of today, they were just trying to
provide for their families and defend themselves against the ever
expanding incursions of the capitalists. I don't know, James, how
(13:36):
do you think the government and factor and has responded
to these ordinary people and their desperate and fair please
for change. Yeah, surely it was a human response right.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
From Yeah, that's what I would expect as a British person.
Throughout history of our government has really shown a lot
of humanity and compassion for people, so I'd expected did
something similar here. That's what I learned into.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
They're so compassionate that they created an empire that the
sun would never set on.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
Hm.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
The reason so considerate, you know, for people who are
afraid of the dark.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Yes, yeah, yeah, that's the real reason.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
And of course they were doing it to uplift, civilize
and christianize the other peoples of the world. And for
the other reasons.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Such philanthropists, such philanthropists.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Kind people who bought tea and scones to the rest
of the world. The British Empire and the British government. Yeah,
never am I going to learn something bad about them?
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Yeah, I hate it at you down. But the government
and the factory and has responded with, you know, deploying
troops to quell the light uprisings and firing against the protesters.
In one of the bloodiest incidents in April eighteen twelve,
some two thousand protesters marbed a mill there Manchester, and
(15:04):
the owner ordered his men because in addition to soldiers,
you also have these you know, private militias that capitalists
would hire. So the owner ordered his men to fire
into the crowd, killing at least three and wound in eighteen,
and then soldiers killed at least five more the next day.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
Okay, yeah, that's that's not quite what we'd hope for,
is it.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Yeah? Yeah, yeah. Many of the Lights were arrested, many
were tortured, some even faced execution or even worse, exile
to Australia.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Yeah, they're ultimately the ultimate crime, the ultimate penalty. Rather, yeah,
it's sent to the land of kangaroos and where they
put mashed potatoes inside their pies. What Yeah, have you
not seen this? This is it's terrible. But unfortunately, are
you talking about like Shepherd's pie or no. They'll they'll
take a meat pie like a normal meat pie, and
(16:00):
then they'll cut a bit and then put mashed potatoes
like into in the top of it, just to what
is called. I have to look now, like I've seen
it on YouTube meat hie mashed potato Australia. You can
get it like it in like you know, like like
it's like instead of having fish and chips. You can
(16:21):
get it at a van like someone will bring it
to you.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
I think I'm seeing it.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
You found it and then they put like gravy as well.
Oh man, Yeah, it's uh like I've come from a
country that does terrible things to food, but yeah, it's
this one is really something else. You can see why
people why it was the word.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
I have to say though, I do admire that it
seems to be a very balanced you know, you get
in the cobs, the fats and the proteins in it.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
You know, it's like, yeah, and its all in one.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
That's that's the gym bro and meats talking, of course,
but it seems like a very efficient meal.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Yeah, it's like, it's not that the Cornish pasty is
the truly the most efficient working man's power bar because
you can you can hold onto the crust and eat
the pasty and even if you have like dirty hands
from working in a factory, you still get your lunch.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Hmm. Yeah. But we're getting a little bit side.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
Yeah, yeah we have. We've traveled a long way.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
From the latter exiles Australia. I shut out the thought,
but some of them, despite that, kept their fighting spirit
to the bitter end, like for example, John Booth and
no offense to James, but you know a lot of
the names I read like British history are the most
(17:48):
generic sound in names. You just casually find someone in
British named like John Doe.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
Yeah, we do. We're choosing from a limit palette. Like
until very recently, we were really pretty pretty, like pretty
stodgy on the names, you know, like I mean, I.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Mean, it's it's iconic, but at the same time it's
also hilarious that you like everybody from like regular people
to like some of the movers and shapers, the leaders
in the military and you know, politicians and stuff, just
all of them.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Yeah, yeah, it's like they had yeah, yeah, yeah, just
some guy. Occasionally you'll get like a Cornelius or a
Marmaduke or just some absolute nons with like a really
posh name, but yeah, otherwise yeah, it's.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Well apparently like an Enoch, you know.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Yeah, yeah, you gotta respect Enoch. Like once you go
outside of England you get some good names. But like, yeah,
we were moving with a pretty pretty pretty playing with
a playing with a small deck. I guess when it
came to names for a while, for I mean.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
I can't even talk. My name is Andrews, so I.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Think my name is the most popular name for boys
born in the year I was born, So I can't really,
I can't really say much.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Oh God, we're going off track again, right John Booth? Right?
So John Booth was this nineteen year old apprentice who
joined one of the light attacks. He was injured, detained,
and died after being tortured to give up the identity
of his fellow thelites. A local priest was in the
room when he was passing, and his dying words became legendary.
(19:35):
So John was like, can you keep a secret? And
the priest was like, yes, my child, and then Booth
was like, so can I and then he died.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
There you go, what a hear?
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Yeah? Iconic? Iconic?
Speaker 3 (19:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
So yeah. Government officials by eighteen thirteen were trying to
quash the light movement and by any means necessary, so
they organize this massive trial in York after the attack
on Cartwright's mill, A Rawford's near Clakheaton.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
I've got to write, yeah, clak Heaton. I think that
seems about right. Where are we in the Yeah, yeah,
we're in. I'm signing it on the map, Okay, in
the leads. Yeah yeah, Bradford. I've not actually spent much
time in that part of the world, but if I
had to guess raw folds something like that. We do
like one of our another. Another great tradition in Britain
(20:32):
is having names which don't bear any relation to the
way they're spelled. We just write them like that. Actually
can tell if you're local or not.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Yeah, yeah, I mean we primarily use British spelling conventions
Internet in English, so I know all about your center
with the R and then the E.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
Yeah, defense and yeah, I'm working on a book at
the moment and my American Microsoft word is fighting me
every step of the way on my spelling.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Yeah, I mean, can't they see that the U is
absolutely essential in the word color?
Speaker 3 (21:10):
Oh yeah, and without it we wouldn't know what it meant.
And that's what language does.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
So yeah. So after this attack on Cartwright's mill, Ruffles
mayor clak Eaton, the government accused over sixty men, including
Mellow and his associates, of various crimes related to the
rights activities. It's important to note that not all of
these charged men were actually the right Some had no
connection to the movement, and while these trials were technically
(21:51):
legitimateury trials, many were abandoned due to a lack of evidence.
They didn't the acquittal of thirty of those sixty men.
And it's evident that these trials were primarily intended as
show trials to discourage others from continuing the activities. And
then here's here's where we get to the important bit.
(22:11):
Parliament went on to make a machine breaking at eat
industrial sabotage a capital crime with the Frame Breaking Act
of eighteen twelve.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
Yeah, what a normal thing. And they've never repealed it,
is that right?
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Yeah? I believe I don't think so. Ye're still in
the books.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
Yeah, listen if you're listening since it was Yeah, I
was going to say, if someone's listening in the UK,
just give it a try to see what happens. Stake
stakes are quite high, but yeah, you know, you never know,
they might be might be able to get the Machine
Breaking Act struck down a frame branking.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if you know, since it
was established in eighteen twelve, if by now a lot
of the British colonies you know, might still have it
in their books as well. Yeah, yeah, herited that common
law and stuff. Yeah, and I'm not like a legal score.
I don't know all the deeds on that.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
No, I can see Liz trust incorporating it into her
platform to return to our leadership position. It's like a
very insane kind of Tory position. Like there's there's still
this bizarre British like any time we have a protest
movement in the streets in the UK, you can like
log onto like meta Facebook or whatever and see like
(23:27):
a certain type of British person being like sending the army.
Like it's like a like there are people who have
not reconstructed their opinions on labor organizing since the LA
that period.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Yeah, indeed, indeed they are the Conservative Party canally picture
them like smoking cigars with top hats, except you know,
they were not capitalists. A lot of them are just
like regular workers, just like what are you even doing?
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Yeah yeah, yeah, like you've like don't you understand that
your economic interest line up these people and not with
the Boris Johnson's of this world? And you're so social
interest too of course, but.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
I mean speaking of of you know, interests aligning, there
was actually a politician who did stand against that legislation,
and that is you know, the well known English poet
Lord Byron. Yeah, he was actually one of the few
prominent defenders of that's especially after witnessing how the defendants
were treated during the York Child.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
I mean, ahead, bar Byron has some surprisingly like good
and then he was part of this romantic movement, right,
like the idea that the industrial revolution spoiled the innocence
of the rural working people, which it's it's paternalist at
its core, but like when at least he's not paying
for their blood.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah yeah, yeah, it actually that that attitude reminds me
of Van go He was another all of his art
was very obsessed with the peasants because he just saw
it like a better way of life. Yeah, real romanticization
of the peasantry.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
Yeah, it was. I think it was a thing that
sort of spread around Europe in the late nineteenth early
twentieth century. Maybe like in the eighteenth centuries, no they yeah,
nineteen to twentieth century, like this idea that yeah, like
the innocence of the rural peasants have been broken, and
like it's just so reflected in so much art from
that period.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
That is that's literally just like the revolusion of nostalgia. Yeah,
fully think about it. You know, it's like it's kind
of like our people today are like, oh the nineties
was so much better. Oh the two thousands were so
much better. Oh the eighties or the seventies. It's just
that but with peasants. Yeah yeah, like disco whatever. Yeah, yeah,
(25:50):
you're right, Like, yeah, it is.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
It's like doing like doing a ironic wearing a fanny pack,
but with a peasant or.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
Not even just in fashion. It's also like the angel
like material reasons, people feel nostalgic. Nostalgic as well. Yeah,
like we think about you know, safety, when you think
about the ways that our cities have changed, think about
you know, the material realities that have changed in these decades,
and it makes sense. But just like I wished for
(26:19):
the simpler life of the present, our people now wish,
you know, go back to the simpler times of.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
You have the minus strike when the.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Media posts Jim Crow and colonial independent experience.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
Yeah yeah, I mean it's uh, I think also we
forget the hardships, but yeah, like it's a way. And
change accelerates so much quicker now because we've rarely fucked
the whole planet, and climate change accelerating and obviously technological
change accelerating, so our nostalgia cycles are much shorter. But yeah,
this is just like when I had an estate and
(26:56):
I could direct the peasants to trim my trees in
a certain shape, life is better for them. Kind of no,
but like in a meaningful sense, right, Like the lives
of working class people were not improved. Right we see
like the like GDP, which is a useless metric, but
like the amount of of like value of goods the
(27:16):
country producers in industrial revolution goes up and up and up,
but the quality of life and even life expectancy does not, right,
like people are dying earlier and certainly like and chiefly
life expectancy is dropping because children are dying, right, either
from the industrial conditions or conditions in cities, and so like,
in a meaningful sense, those people's life was not improved.
(27:39):
The life of the bourgeoisie was improved, and like we
see that later in Britain with things like the Britain's
forced to incorporate the bourgeoisie into it into its politics. Right,
so that doesn't have a bigger revolution, that's what it
does in the Great Reform Act. But like the working
class people, it continues to suppress with like after this
(28:00):
you know, we look, we say it with the chartists
and like the violent oppression of chartism. But yeah, this
nostalgia isn't it helps them, But I guess it's not
really invested in their agency. It's more of a paternalist
like it's I guess not dissimilar to the way Britain
treated its colonies in many ways.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Yeah, And I think another aspect of it as well is,
you know, when we look at this sort of nostalgia,
whether it's talking about this romantic nostalgia for the simple
life of the peasant, always talking about the nostalgia of well,
for example, give you an example from Trinidad, the oil boom
period in the seventies and eighties. Right, Yeah, we gain
(28:44):
independence nineteen sixty two, and in the seventies and eighties
we got this oil boom and you know some other
people who live in lavish But whether you talk either
of those cases, when you look at the reality of
the situation on the ground, it's like, oh, you actually
go out to that time, it wasn't Also on Shina ruverses,
you know, like it actually was not good to be
(29:05):
a peasant. Actually, I mean there are certain things that
you know, a lot better than now in terms of
perhaps the vibrants of culture or the ability to lean
on a community for support and that sort of thing.
But or take for example, this oil boom situation talking
about with Trinidad. Yeah, like there was this massive influx
(29:28):
of wealth and stuff, but there's also you know, a
whole bunch of corruption and also we had the whole
nineteen seventy Black Power revolution that was born out of
the frustration of the people at the time. There's all
sunshine and rainbows, you know.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's just always this sense like you
see it in like nostalgia as well, right, like the
nostalgia for East Germany that the German people will talk about,
like you also had the starz e Like.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
I mean I guess at it when I look at
some of the maps of like like they're talking about
with Germany, some of the data related maps and the
sociological data of things like religiosity or things. Yeah, current
some other examples, but there's some like stark differences between
the two sides of the country.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
Yeah, yeah, very much.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
So, so I completely understand people would feel like, oh,
we feel so separate and distinct from you know, West
Germany and all that stuff.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
But yeah, and when you've become like they went from
being like a I guess, like a nation within the
USSR to like the often the less economically advantage parts
of a nation which is near liberal and capitalist, and
like neoliberal capitalism is not kind to the less economically
advance advantage people. It wasn't a great situation before either,
(30:50):
to be clear, but like, I can see how suddenly
being incorporated into like not not everyone's going through this,
but you are are, and the state's not going to
do fuck all to help you is like I can
see how that might promote some nostalgia.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Definitely, definitely, and I mean speaking of states doing nothing.
At this time, Byron is making his speech before the
Lord's and in that speech, laced with sarcasm, of course,
he was highlighting the benefits of automation, which he believe
(31:27):
led to the production of inferior goods and unemployment. He
concluded that the proposed law, the Frame Breaking active eighteen twelve,
was only missing two crucial elements to be effective twelve
butchers for a jury and a Jeffries for a judge,
which was a reference to George Jeffries an infamous hanging
(31:50):
judge known for his very harsh judgments.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
Yeah, it's also mad that, like, but also not uncommon
in this period that you are seeing like the leftmost
political opinion being advanced within Parliament being advanced in the
hereditary chamber, like the House of Lord, Like.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Yeah, exactly as soon the that's the way the aristocratic Yeah,
the aristocratic realm is still you know, having to deal
with this.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
Yeah, it's very much tied to like a paternalism and
a sort of feudal attitude. But it's just it's just
fascinating to see, like, and it does happen in the
especially and I think also there's this a deep, deep
disdain for new money that is a powerfully British vibe
that that comes especially from the House of Lords, right,
(32:46):
like like this like they don't identify with the bourgeoisie
at all and fucking hate them because they're they're they're
turning up at the country club or whatever.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Yeah, and it's so it's so funny without a lot
of old money. And I'm gonna say this, and I'm
gonna you know, give back contract. What's so funny about
the old money, folks, is that a lot of other cases.
They don't even have like as much money as the
new money people. Yes, about money for them at this point,
it's really just about linear and culture and whatever.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
Yeah, Like Britain's class thing is like it's almost like
a caste system, Like your cast is your class is
inherited regardless of your actual financial means. Like they're like
lord living in a castle that he can't afford to heat.
It's like a it's like a it's a trope for
a reason in Britain, I guess.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Indeed, indeed. Yeah, But the passing of that act, and
in the years had followed, the Light movement came to
an end. But the actions left a lasting mark on
the labor movement. There's tactics of collective action. Even though
Clandestine laid the groundwork for future labor unions, demonstrating the
(33:59):
power of organized resistance, defenders of their way of life,
reminders the technology wild transformative cano disrupt lives and communities.
The Lights experiences, the Lights experiences echo even today, you know,
in an era with the fear of technological unemployment, with
(34:22):
discussions and the impact of automation and AI.
Speaker 3 (34:26):
Yeah, you know, before he.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Had said his infamous last words. John Booth also said
that the new machinery might be man's chief blessing instead
of his curse, if society were differently constituted. In other ways,
technology can either help common food or harm them, depending
on not just what the technology is, but also what
(34:52):
society the technology develops within.
Speaker 3 (34:57):
Yeah, that's very true.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
So I'll leave you all with that for now, and
next time we'll be shifting off focused to the present
day and examining how Luddism's principles have been applied by
movements of the twentieth and twenty first century.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
Cool nice.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
That's all for me. You can find me on YouTube
dot com slash Andurism, and support on Patreon dot com
slash Saint Drew. This has been It could Happen here.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated
monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
Thanks for listening.
The media.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome to it could happen here. I'm Andrew Sage
from YouTube channel Andrewism, joined today by James.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Hi.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
Sorry, I'm doing my own track, Hi Andrew. Yeah, yeah,
I'm excited to hear about something. I don't know what yet,
so it should be a fun adventure.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Yes, Well, today we are doing a little bit of
time traveling. We're gonna embark on a journey to explode
movements of about two hundred years ago that I think
is still quite relevant even today, particularly in our very technological,
fast paced world. So when we put a new James
(00:47):
in the early nineteenth century in England, Great which you
know is a time of great change, of evil, disease
or that jazz.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Yeah, I think I have thrived as a person with
diabetes would have made it approximately a couple of weeks.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Yeah. The Industrial Revolution was in full swinging. It hadn't
quite reached that point yet as far as I know,
but it was transforming the way that people lived and worked.
It was a time of innovation, was also a time
of great uncertainty, and amidst the class and looms and
rise of organization, a group of workers emerged to became
(01:28):
known as the Lerites. They were, you know, some early
adopters ah yes, of resistance, Yes, resistance to the changes
of the Industrial Revolution, and you know for that cardinal
sin they've been missing too preted ever since. So today
we're going to be explaining exactly who the the rights
were and why the actions resonate with us today in
(01:51):
the twenty first century. We'll talk about their history and
their motivations and their bravestand against the relentless march of
capitalist progress. We're also such on some figures, some of
their tactics and the lasting impact they left on history.
But most importantly we'll be covering why they struggle somatters today.
So here we are. You know, in the nineteenth century
(02:13):
Industrial Revolution and soeping through England, British working families were
going through some very tough times as the economy was
in turmoil and unemployment was spreading like wildfire. It really
wasn't a good situation to be in. There was this
never ending war with Napoleon's France. There was Drian resources
and causing what Yorkshire historian Frank Peel described as the
(02:35):
hard pinch of poverty, and to make matters worse, food
was in short supply and prices were shooting up. Not
only were jobs hard to come by, but even putting
basic food on the table was becoming a serious challenge.
So it was a really tough period for these families
and they were feeling that squeeze in every way possible.
So the Lights emerged as a response to these seismic
(02:58):
shifts as a moosely organized group of textile workers and
weavers who healed primarily but not exclusively, from the nottingham
Shire region of England. At the heart of their struggle
was the mechanization of the textile industry. Factories powered by
steam engines and intricate machinery were replacing traditional cottage industries,
(03:21):
leading to unemployment and a decline in working conditions. In
the place of a cottage industry where cloth workers could
work as many or as few hours and days suited them,
the factory had a reseren where workers would work long
hours at dangerous machinery, be fed meager meals, and submit
to the punitive authority of the foremant factory owners were winning.
(03:45):
As I alluded to earlier, the Dites were not blindly
opposed to this idea of progress, as they've been misinterpreted,
but they were seeking to protect their livelihoods and the
quality of their craftsmanship. Many of the original rights were
actually quite savvy when it came to technology. In fact,
some were highly skilled machine operators that ended up smashing
(04:07):
the very machines that they were accustomed to use in
They had no issue with welcoming innovations that made their
lives and their jobs easier, but they had an issue
with the way that the new machinery is being used
by the factory owners to reduce them to mare cogs
in the industrial machine. And they didn't like that factory
(04:27):
owners were using the machinery to kick out They trained
and skilled cloth workers in fear of child laborers and
other lower skilled workers would be easier to exploit. Yeah,
the cloth for these machines produced was of lower quality,
but because it was so cheap to churn out and
there was so much of it, the factory owners were
still toner profit and so that you know, that sucks
(04:48):
for them, which is why the rights to resist these
changes embraced a distinctive form of protest. At the time,
label organizing was label organizing as illegal, so they chose
a suppose even more drastic method of targets in the
newly introduced machines for destruction. Yeah, they were.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
Is it E. P. Thompson who called it collective bargaining
by riot? Yes, yes, I believe so. Yeah, I think
that's an excellent way to understand it. I'm sure we'll
get there. But it's Yeah, it's a means of labor
organizing when labor organizing is illegal.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Indeed, indeed, I mean, if no other options are available
to you, you know, you're pressed against the wall. They
have no other choice.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
So, these these Loodites would gather together in the dead
of the night, usually in secluded areas like forests or hillsides,
to plan their actions. To maintain their secrecy, Blodites adopted
a strict code of silence, making it very difficult for
authorities to infiltrate their ranks. That secrecy was crucial to
(05:57):
their survival and their ability to outwind the authorities, and
so under this code they'd go on and break into
the factories and smash the machinery and occasionally leave an
etching of the infamous ned Lud as a mark of
their presence. Ned Luod, by the way, was a symbol
(06:17):
not their actual leader. He was a legendary weaver who
was said to have been whipped for idleness, so he
smashed two knit in frames in a fit of passion.
More likely, Nedlood didn't exist. He was more of like
a folkloric character, but the Laites named themselves after him
and would call them King Lood and General Luod. Funny enough,
(06:40):
the authorities actually thought he was the ringleader of the
whole operation, so they tried to hunt him down. Meanwhile,
of course the Luddites are jokingly referring to Lud's office
and Sheerwood Forest, and some of the Bloodites would actually
cross dress as Lud's wives during their protests.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Yeah, I do like every time you find an instance
of like cross dressing in history. So it's just amusing
to note that. I guess some people have decided that
like either either like cross dressing or trans people were
invented in like twenty sixteen, not that those two things
are the same, but like we can find literally thousands
of instances of of course trans people and also crossdressing
(07:23):
like as a form of like deliberate sometimes it's transgression.
Sometimes the thing that just people did. But yeah, you
can see it in depictions of the Ladyites like people
even took the time to paint it into their paintings
exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Yeah, but yees, so, I mean the leader wasn't ned
a lot. The leader, well, it really was Earl the
Last movement. The real instigators were just regular on the
ground weavers and craftsmen, folks like, for example, George Mellow,
a weaver from Huddersfield who played a pivotal rule in
(08:00):
organizing the right actions in the West Riding of Yorkshire,
best known for the time that he fatally shot a
mill owner in the balls. Yeah chat move indeed, indeed.
But these actions were not just you know, random acts
(08:22):
of vandalism and violence. They were a desperate plea for change.
In fact, they mainly confined their attacks to manufacturers who
specifically use machines in what they called a fraudulent and
seitful manner to get around standard labor practices. The Lights
wanted machines that made high quality goods, and they wanted
these machines to be run by workers who had gone
(08:42):
through an apprenticeship and got paid decent wages. Those were
really their main concerns, and besides the raids, and the smashing.
They also had a couple other tricks up their sleeves.
They organized public demonstrations, They sent out letters to look
industrialists and government officials to lay out their reasons for
(09:03):
wrecking the machinery. They weren't just smashing for the reason
with no messaging. Yeah, and in different parts of England,
you know, you had different approaches, different stances and different
material conditions. So, for example, in the Midlands of England,
to the rights had the Company of Framework Knitters, which
was this recognized public body that could talk to the
(09:26):
capitalists through named representatives, and so they used that legitimacy
as a recognized institution to back up their demands. But
up in the northwest of England, textile workers didn't have
these established trade institutions, so they used their letters to
push for official recognition as a united group of trades people.
You know, it's like an early union. The demands went
(09:46):
just of course about smashing machines. They also wanted high
min own wages and again an end to childwait labor.
They were playing the long game. And in Yorkshire, you know,
the tone shifts a bit. They were going from letter
writingto making more direct and violent threats against local authorities
(10:07):
who they saw supports in these nasty machines that messed
with the job market the Yorkshire Writes meant business. In fact,
they carried around these sledgehammers that they call the Great Enoch,
named after local blacksmith who had manufactured both the hammers
and also many of the machines they intended to destroy.
(10:27):
As they declared Enoch made them, Enoch shall break them,
which I think is just the division that gives me.
Is like, you know, God of War style, you know,
swinging around this sledgehammer smash of the machines.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Yeah, yeah, like, I mean, they broke some big things, right,
like they weren't. This wasn't like, I know, like some
sort of trivial sabotage like frame breaking is. It's still
a capital crime in the UK, but it's also a
serious feet of strength.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Yes, and I'm going to get into that.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Excellent. Yeah. I love coming from a country with normal laws.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
There's so many. Don't even get me started on strange
laws around the world. I mean, yeah, uring that there
are some really strange strange laws, but yeah, yeah, I'm
sure that could be a whole topic for a whole episode.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
It could be you could suggest that they're not connected
to morality. Perhaps maybe maybe the law and right and
wrong is not the same thing.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Hm, you might be onto something there, Yeah, ponder something
to think about for sure.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
So a lot of these change differences and approaches like
I mentioned, really depend on their material conditions. It also
depended on the background of the workers. Some of them
were frameworkers, some of them are weavers, some of them
were spinners, and so they took on different tactics and
styles depending on what they were experienced with and where
you found them. Of course, they were sending out death
threats to some industrialists as well, and in fact, some
(12:08):
of these industrialists were so worried about let light attacks
that they had secret chambers built into their buildings as
escape plans in case things went south during an attack.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
I could imagine them cowering in their holes. Yeah, just
like as were outside.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Imagine being like, yeah, I'm making excellent choices in life.
I employ hundreds of people, and I've built a secret
hole to hiding when they'll never be trying and kill
me because I've made their lives so shit.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yes, Like I am going to create conditions that are
so terrible. These people are going to get so angry
at me and then I'm just going to make a
place to hide, you know. Yeah, so actually rectifying the
reasons they're angry.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
Yeah, exactly. Like you could simply take the money you
spent on your secret escape patch and distributed to people
who are literally strung link to put food in their
children's mouths. But I guess that's not the logic of capitalism,
is it.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Yeah, that'll be too it'll be too humane.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
Yes, yeah, yeah, you can't let them get you know,
realize that you're afraid of them.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Indeed, for all these tactics, the rights were truly fights,
not only for their own jobs, but also for us,
say in the future of their industry and their communities.
Like regular people of today, they were just trying to
provide for their families and defend themselves against the ever
expanding incursions of the capitalists. I don't know, James, how
(13:36):
do you think the government and factor and has responded
to these ordinary people and their desperate and fair please
for change. Yeah, surely it was a human response right.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
From Yeah, that's what I would expect as a British person.
Throughout history of our government has really shown a lot
of humanity and compassion for people, so I'd expected did
something similar here. That's what I learned into.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
They're so compassionate that they created an empire that the
sun would never set on.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
Hm.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
The reason so considerate, you know, for people who are
afraid of the dark.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Yes, yeah, yeah, that's the real reason.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
And of course they were doing it to uplift, civilize
and christianize the other peoples of the world. And for
the other reasons.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Such philanthropists, such philanthropists.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Kind people who bought tea and scones to the rest
of the world. The British Empire and the British government. Yeah,
never am I going to learn something bad about them?
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Yeah, I hate it at you down. But the government
and the factory and has responded with, you know, deploying
troops to quell the light uprisings and firing against the protesters.
In one of the bloodiest incidents in April eighteen twelve,
some two thousand protesters marbed a mill there Manchester, and
(15:04):
the owner ordered his men because in addition to soldiers,
you also have these you know, private militias that capitalists
would hire. So the owner ordered his men to fire
into the crowd, killing at least three and wound in eighteen,
and then soldiers killed at least five more the next day.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
Okay, yeah, that's that's not quite what we'd hope for,
is it.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Yeah? Yeah, yeah. Many of the Lights were arrested, many
were tortured, some even faced execution or even worse, exile
to Australia.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Yeah, they're ultimately the ultimate crime, the ultimate penalty. Rather, yeah,
it's sent to the land of kangaroos and where they
put mashed potatoes inside their pies. What Yeah, have you
not seen this? This is it's terrible. But unfortunately, are
you talking about like Shepherd's pie or no. They'll they'll
take a meat pie like a normal meat pie, and
(16:00):
then they'll cut a bit and then put mashed potatoes
like into in the top of it, just to what
is called. I have to look now, like I've seen
it on YouTube meat hie mashed potato Australia. You can
get it like it in like you know, like like
it's like instead of having fish and chips. You can
(16:21):
get it at a van like someone will bring it
to you.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
I think I'm seeing it.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
You found it and then they put like gravy as well.
Oh man, Yeah, it's uh like I've come from a
country that does terrible things to food, but yeah, it's
this one is really something else. You can see why
people why it was the word.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
I have to say though, I do admire that it
seems to be a very balanced you know, you get
in the cobs, the fats and the proteins in it.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
You know, it's like, yeah, and its all in one.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
That's that's the gym bro and meats talking, of course,
but it seems like a very efficient meal.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Yeah, it's like, it's not that the Cornish pasty is
the truly the most efficient working man's power bar because
you can you can hold onto the crust and eat
the pasty and even if you have like dirty hands
from working in a factory, you still get your lunch.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Hmm. Yeah. But we're getting a little bit side.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
Yeah, yeah we have. We've traveled a long way.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
From the latter exiles Australia. I shut out the thought,
but some of them, despite that, kept their fighting spirit
to the bitter end, like for example, John Booth and
no offense to James, but you know a lot of
the names I read like British history are the most
(17:48):
generic sound in names. You just casually find someone in
British named like John Doe.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
Yeah, we do. We're choosing from a limit palette. Like
until very recently, we were really pretty pretty, like pretty
stodgy on the names, you know, like I mean, I.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Mean, it's it's iconic, but at the same time it's
also hilarious that you like everybody from like regular people
to like some of the movers and shapers, the leaders
in the military and you know, politicians and stuff, just
all of them.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Yeah, yeah, it's like they had yeah, yeah, yeah, just
some guy. Occasionally you'll get like a Cornelius or a
Marmaduke or just some absolute nons with like a really
posh name, but yeah, otherwise yeah, it's.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Well apparently like an Enoch, you know.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Yeah, yeah, you gotta respect Enoch. Like once you go
outside of England you get some good names. But like, yeah,
we were moving with a pretty pretty pretty playing with
a playing with a small deck. I guess when it
came to names for a while, for I mean.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
I can't even talk. My name is Andrews, so I.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Think my name is the most popular name for boys
born in the year I was born, So I can't really,
I can't really say much.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Oh God, we're going off track again, right John Booth? Right?
So John Booth was this nineteen year old apprentice who
joined one of the light attacks. He was injured, detained,
and died after being tortured to give up the identity
of his fellow thelites. A local priest was in the
room when he was passing, and his dying words became legendary.
(19:35):
So John was like, can you keep a secret? And
the priest was like, yes, my child, and then Booth
was like, so can I and then he died.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
There you go, what a hear?
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Yeah? Iconic? Iconic?
Speaker 3 (19:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
So yeah. Government officials by eighteen thirteen were trying to
quash the light movement and by any means necessary, so
they organize this massive trial in York after the attack
on Cartwright's mill, A Rawford's near Clakheaton.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
I've got to write, yeah, clak Heaton. I think that
seems about right. Where are we in the Yeah, yeah,
we're in. I'm signing it on the map, Okay, in
the leads. Yeah yeah, Bradford. I've not actually spent much
time in that part of the world, but if I
had to guess raw folds something like that. We do
like one of our another. Another great tradition in Britain
(20:32):
is having names which don't bear any relation to the
way they're spelled. We just write them like that. Actually
can tell if you're local or not.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Yeah, yeah, I mean we primarily use British spelling conventions
Internet in English, so I know all about your center
with the R and then the E.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
Yeah, defense and yeah, I'm working on a book at
the moment and my American Microsoft word is fighting me
every step of the way on my spelling.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Yeah, I mean, can't they see that the U is
absolutely essential in the word color?
Speaker 3 (21:10):
Oh yeah, and without it we wouldn't know what it meant.
And that's what language does.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
So yeah. So after this attack on Cartwright's mill, Ruffles
mayor clak Eaton, the government accused over sixty men, including
Mellow and his associates, of various crimes related to the
rights activities. It's important to note that not all of
these charged men were actually the right Some had no
connection to the movement, and while these trials were technically
(21:51):
legitimateury trials, many were abandoned due to a lack of evidence.
They didn't the acquittal of thirty of those sixty men.
And it's evident that these trials were primarily intended as
show trials to discourage others from continuing the activities. And
then here's here's where we get to the important bit.
(22:11):
Parliament went on to make a machine breaking at eat
industrial sabotage a capital crime with the Frame Breaking Act
of eighteen twelve.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
Yeah, what a normal thing. And they've never repealed it,
is that right?
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Yeah? I believe I don't think so. Ye're still in
the books.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
Yeah, listen if you're listening since it was Yeah, I
was going to say, if someone's listening in the UK,
just give it a try to see what happens. Stake
stakes are quite high, but yeah, you know, you never know,
they might be might be able to get the Machine
Breaking Act struck down a frame branking.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if you know, since it
was established in eighteen twelve, if by now a lot
of the British colonies you know, might still have it
in their books as well. Yeah, yeah, herited that common
law and stuff. Yeah, and I'm not like a legal score.
I don't know all the deeds on that.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
No, I can see Liz trust incorporating it into her
platform to return to our leadership position. It's like a
very insane kind of Tory position. Like there's there's still
this bizarre British like any time we have a protest
movement in the streets in the UK, you can like
log onto like meta Facebook or whatever and see like
(23:27):
a certain type of British person being like sending the army.
Like it's like a like there are people who have
not reconstructed their opinions on labor organizing since the LA
that period.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Yeah, indeed, indeed they are the Conservative Party canally picture
them like smoking cigars with top hats, except you know,
they were not capitalists. A lot of them are just
like regular workers, just like what are you even doing?
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Yeah yeah, yeah, like you've like don't you understand that
your economic interest line up these people and not with
the Boris Johnson's of this world? And you're so social
interest too of course, but.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
I mean speaking of of you know, interests aligning, there
was actually a politician who did stand against that legislation,
and that is you know, the well known English poet
Lord Byron. Yeah, he was actually one of the few
prominent defenders of that's especially after witnessing how the defendants
were treated during the York Child.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
I mean, ahead, bar Byron has some surprisingly like good
and then he was part of this romantic movement, right,
like the idea that the industrial revolution spoiled the innocence
of the rural working people, which it's it's paternalist at
its core, but like when at least he's not paying
for their blood.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah yeah, yeah, it actually that that attitude reminds me
of Van go He was another all of his art
was very obsessed with the peasants because he just saw
it like a better way of life. Yeah, real romanticization
of the peasantry.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
Yeah, it was. I think it was a thing that
sort of spread around Europe in the late nineteenth early
twentieth century. Maybe like in the eighteenth centuries, no they yeah,
nineteen to twentieth century, like this idea that yeah, like
the innocence of the rural peasants have been broken, and
like it's just so reflected in so much art from
that period.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
That is that's literally just like the revolusion of nostalgia. Yeah,
fully think about it. You know, it's like it's kind
of like our people today are like, oh the nineties
was so much better. Oh the two thousands were so
much better. Oh the eighties or the seventies. It's just
that but with peasants. Yeah yeah, like disco whatever. Yeah, yeah,
(25:50):
you're right, Like, yeah, it is.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
It's like doing like doing a ironic wearing a fanny pack,
but with a peasant or.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
Not even just in fashion. It's also like the angel
like material reasons, people feel nostalgic. Nostalgic as well. Yeah,
like we think about you know, safety, when you think
about the ways that our cities have changed, think about
you know, the material realities that have changed in these decades,
and it makes sense. But just like I wished for
(26:19):
the simpler life of the present, our people now wish,
you know, go back to the simpler times of.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
You have the minus strike when the.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Media posts Jim Crow and colonial independent experience.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
Yeah yeah, I mean it's uh, I think also we
forget the hardships, but yeah, like it's a way. And
change accelerates so much quicker now because we've rarely fucked
the whole planet, and climate change accelerating and obviously technological
change accelerating, so our nostalgia cycles are much shorter. But yeah,
this is just like when I had an estate and
(26:56):
I could direct the peasants to trim my trees in
a certain shape, life is better for them. Kind of no,
but like in a meaningful sense, right, Like the lives
of working class people were not improved. Right we see
like the like GDP, which is a useless metric, but
like the amount of of like value of goods the
(27:16):
country producers in industrial revolution goes up and up and up,
but the quality of life and even life expectancy does not, right,
like people are dying earlier and certainly like and chiefly
life expectancy is dropping because children are dying, right, either
from the industrial conditions or conditions in cities, and so like,
in a meaningful sense, those people's life was not improved.
(27:39):
The life of the bourgeoisie was improved, and like we
see that later in Britain with things like the Britain's
forced to incorporate the bourgeoisie into it into its politics. Right,
so that doesn't have a bigger revolution, that's what it
does in the Great Reform Act. But like the working
class people, it continues to suppress with like after this
(28:00):
you know, we look, we say it with the chartists
and like the violent oppression of chartism. But yeah, this
nostalgia isn't it helps them, But I guess it's not
really invested in their agency. It's more of a paternalist
like it's I guess not dissimilar to the way Britain
treated its colonies in many ways.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Yeah, And I think another aspect of it as well is,
you know, when we look at this sort of nostalgia,
whether it's talking about this romantic nostalgia for the simple
life of the peasant, always talking about the nostalgia of well,
for example, give you an example from Trinidad, the oil boom
period in the seventies and eighties. Right, Yeah, we gain
(28:44):
independence nineteen sixty two, and in the seventies and eighties
we got this oil boom and you know some other
people who live in lavish But whether you talk either
of those cases, when you look at the reality of
the situation on the ground, it's like, oh, you actually
go out to that time, it wasn't Also on Shina ruverses,
you know, like it actually was not good to be
(29:05):
a peasant. Actually, I mean there are certain things that
you know, a lot better than now in terms of
perhaps the vibrants of culture or the ability to lean
on a community for support and that sort of thing.
But or take for example, this oil boom situation talking
about with Trinidad. Yeah, like there was this massive influx
(29:28):
of wealth and stuff, but there's also you know, a
whole bunch of corruption and also we had the whole
nineteen seventy Black Power revolution that was born out of
the frustration of the people at the time. There's all
sunshine and rainbows, you know.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's just always this sense like you
see it in like nostalgia as well, right, like the
nostalgia for East Germany that the German people will talk about,
like you also had the starz e Like.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
I mean I guess at it when I look at
some of the maps of like like they're talking about
with Germany, some of the data related maps and the
sociological data of things like religiosity or things. Yeah, current
some other examples, but there's some like stark differences between
the two sides of the country.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
Yeah, yeah, very much.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
So, so I completely understand people would feel like, oh,
we feel so separate and distinct from you know, West
Germany and all that stuff.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
But yeah, and when you've become like they went from
being like a I guess, like a nation within the
USSR to like the often the less economically advantage parts
of a nation which is near liberal and capitalist, and
like neoliberal capitalism is not kind to the less economically
advance advantage people. It wasn't a great situation before either,
(30:50):
to be clear, but like, I can see how suddenly
being incorporated into like not not everyone's going through this,
but you are are, and the state's not going to
do fuck all to help you is like I can
see how that might promote some nostalgia.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Definitely, definitely, and I mean speaking of states doing nothing.
At this time, Byron is making his speech before the
Lord's and in that speech, laced with sarcasm, of course,
he was highlighting the benefits of automation, which he believe
(31:27):
led to the production of inferior goods and unemployment. He
concluded that the proposed law, the Frame Breaking active eighteen twelve,
was only missing two crucial elements to be effective twelve
butchers for a jury and a Jeffries for a judge,
which was a reference to George Jeffries an infamous hanging
(31:50):
judge known for his very harsh judgments.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
Yeah, it's also mad that, like, but also not uncommon
in this period that you are seeing like the leftmost
political opinion being advanced within Parliament being advanced in the
hereditary chamber, like the House of Lord, Like.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Yeah, exactly as soon the that's the way the aristocratic Yeah,
the aristocratic realm is still you know, having to deal
with this.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
Yeah, it's very much tied to like a paternalism and
a sort of feudal attitude. But it's just it's just
fascinating to see, like, and it does happen in the
especially and I think also there's this a deep, deep
disdain for new money that is a powerfully British vibe
that that comes especially from the House of Lords, right,
(32:46):
like like this like they don't identify with the bourgeoisie
at all and fucking hate them because they're they're they're
turning up at the country club or whatever.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Yeah, and it's so it's so funny without a lot
of old money. And I'm gonna say this, and I'm
gonna you know, give back contract. What's so funny about
the old money, folks, is that a lot of other cases.
They don't even have like as much money as the
new money people. Yes, about money for them at this point,
it's really just about linear and culture and whatever.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
Yeah, Like Britain's class thing is like it's almost like
a caste system, Like your cast is your class is
inherited regardless of your actual financial means. Like they're like
lord living in a castle that he can't afford to heat.
It's like a it's like a it's a trope for
a reason in Britain, I guess.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Indeed, indeed. Yeah, But the passing of that act, and
in the years had followed, the Light movement came to
an end. But the actions left a lasting mark on
the labor movement. There's tactics of collective action. Even though
Clandestine laid the groundwork for future labor unions, demonstrating the
(33:59):
power of organized resistance, defenders of their way of life,
reminders the technology wild transformative cano disrupt lives and communities.
The Lights experiences, the Lights experiences echo even today, you know,
in an era with the fear of technological unemployment, with
(34:22):
discussions and the impact of automation and AI.
Speaker 3 (34:26):
Yeah, you know, before he.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Had said his infamous last words. John Booth also said
that the new machinery might be man's chief blessing instead
of his curse, if society were differently constituted. In other ways,
technology can either help common food or harm them, depending
on not just what the technology is, but also what
(34:52):
society the technology develops within.
Speaker 3 (34:57):
Yeah, that's very true.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
So I'll leave you all with that for now, and
next time we'll be shifting off focused to the present
day and examining how Luddism's principles have been applied by
movements of the twentieth and twenty first century.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
Cool nice.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
That's all for me. You can find me on YouTube
dot com slash Andurism, and support on Patreon dot com
slash Saint Drew. This has been It could Happen here.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated
monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
Thanks for listening.
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Garrison Davis
James Stout
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