April 23, 2025 • 50 mins
Garrison is joined by philosopher Michael Burns to discuss a new terrorism classification term that could shift the FBI away from right-wing militias towards "nihilist" extremists trying to accelerate the collapse of the United States.
Sources:
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/story/fbi-kash-patel-antifa-blm-terror-groups
https://globalextremism.org/post/trump-abandoning-efforts-to-combat-white-supremacist/
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/feb/28/fbi-kash-patel-investigations-far-right
https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/fbi-dhs-domestic-terrorism-strategic-report.pdf/view
https://bxwrites.substack.com/p/exclusive-the-satanic-plot-to-assassinate
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Cool media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
This is It could Happen Here a show about things
falling apart, and this episode is about the people who
want to make it being the United States fall apart
even faster, allowing them to install a white s parremacist
ethno state, though it kind of feels like that's pretty
much already happening. This episode is also about the people
in government who categorize and classify want to be terrorists,
(00:27):
who want the country to collapse faster, and what these
changes in categorization methods can tell us about the future
of the country. I'm Garrison Davison today I'm joined by
a very special guest, philosopher and comedian Michael Burns of
the YouTube channel Michael o'burns and formerly wiscrack rip.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
How you doing pretty good, you know, besides living in
the world that you just described past that everything's going great.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Yeah, that's kind of been my mood the past three months,
maybe longer. There's a tad, a tad like liminality. But
I don't know if that's just like living in denial
and trying to cope. But hey, you know what's wrong
with a little bit of coping.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Especially if it helps one simply survive these times. So
you know, I encourage a healthy dose of of coping
or sort of a you know, mental bifurcation, if that's
what we need to do to get up in the
morning and get through it all.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
Yay.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Now, Unfortunately, this episode that I have prepared today is
uh not a super cheery one for you, Michael, which
is which is maybe kind of kind of appropriate because
the reason why I have you on this episode today
is because the FBI and the Department of Justice have
come up with a new terrorism classification acronym which name
(01:47):
drops the internet's favorite and sometimes least favorite philosophy, nihilism.
They're they're calling these guys nihilistic violent extremists. Oh boy,
we will, we will get into this. Do you want
to give like a philosophy one oh one definition of nihilism?
A super well known and universally agreed upon term that
(02:10):
always means the same thing to everybody.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
So yeah, it's not confusing it at all.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
And yeah, I mean I think the root of it,
at least in like a modern philosophical sense is Nietzsche.
At least that's a common reference point. And when Nietzsche
is talking about nihilism, especially in a book like The
Genealogy Morality a lot of other places, he is making
the argument that sort of Christian European culture, and particularly
(02:34):
a Christian European culture influenced by idealist philosophy, creates nihilism.
The reason he says it creates nihilism is because people
care more about Heaven than they do about earth. They
care more about the life they're going to have an
eternity than the life they have in the here and now.
So for him, it's like this devaluement of life that happens.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
If your Christianity.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
More broadly speaking, nihilism has a I guess more positive usage,
which is the you know, disbelief in the inherent or
necessary meaning in an overarching.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
System like in like the existential sense.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Yeah, so you kind of have this this distinction, and
some people use of positive and negative nihilism, and to
be really crass and simple here, negative nihilism is nothing
means anything, So I don't give a shit. I'm just
gonna hang out and do whatever. Positive nihilism is there's
no inherent meaning in reality, but cool. Now, me and
the homies can construct meaning as we see fit, which
(03:33):
is more like the existentialist response, We're going to create
meaning where maybe there wasn't natural meaning in this like
old school Platonic or Christian sense.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
And I'm not sure how much the FBI agents who
are doing these federal court filings have read Nietzsche or
the French existentialists and instead of probably using a colloquial
definition of nihilism, right this like oh nothing matters, you know,
this like app anthetic, postmodernist like idea to go a
(04:03):
little Jordan Petersony, right.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
Yeah, I mean I think there's the sense in which
it is the kind of weird Jordan Petersony alright, philosophy
version of nihilism, which just means like people that think
the dominance of the West is bad. And it also
reeks a little bit of like big Lebowski nihilism for totally,
you know. And of course in that movie, nihilism is
(04:25):
represented by a crew of I think Austrian techno producers
called Autobahn, who are also nihilists, and they say throughout
the film like we are nihilist, we believe in nothing,
which is a really and obviously the Coen Brothers made
that film, at least one of them was a philosophy major,
so they know what they're doing. That's kind of the
really basic, not good enough version of this thing that
it seems like the FBI is operating with, like people
(04:47):
who don't believe in the goodness of the Western project.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Correct, and that's what they're really honing in on. I
will read an expanded definition of of nihilistic violent extremism.
This is This is from a Federal court filing and
dated March eighteenth, twenty twenty five. Nihilist violent extremists are
individuals to engage in criminal conduct within the United States
and abroad in furtherance of political, social, or religious goals
that derive primarily from a hatred of society at large
(05:14):
and a desire to bring about its collapse by sowing
indiscriminate chaos, destruction, and social instability. Nihlis violent extremists work
individually or as a part of a network with these
goals of destroying civilized society through the corruption and exploitation
of vulnerable populations, which often include minors. Now, this is
where it's going to get into some kind of weirder
(05:36):
stuff that we will kind of explain later. They have
like a second definition here quote nihilist vile extreamists, both
individually and as a network, systematically and methodically target vulnerable
populations across the United States and the globe. They frequently
use social media communication platforms to connect with individuals and
desensitize them to violence, among other things, breaking down societal
norms regarding engaging in violence, normalizing the possession, production, and
(06:01):
sharing of gore materials, and otherwise corrupting and grooming those
individuals towards committing future acts of violence unquote. And that
kind of outlines some of the strategy of these groups,
the groups that they're kind of gonna mention here. I've
been doing like freelance research on for about four years now.
(06:22):
I've been trying to publish a few articles on these
guys over the years, but it's always it's always tricky,
and we will get to kind of the darker corners
of that in a sect. But let's let's first kind
of talk about what this new term, this nvees nihilist
violent extremists. What this is kind of replacing the in
(06:42):
the FBI lexicon. Now, it seems that this term is
being used in place of two previous FBI terrorism categories.
This is from a November twenty twenty FBI bulletin quote
anti government or anti authority violent extremism. This threatet ncompasses
the potentially unlawful use or threat of force or violence
(07:05):
in furtherance of ideological agendas derived from anti government or
anti authority sentiment, including opposition to perceived economic, social, or
racial hierarchies, or perceived government overreach, negligence, or illegitimacy.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Can I say something that stood out to me about
those definitions? The hatred thing I found really interesting in
like the very first definition you give that nihilism is
defined as like in a motive state, because again, I
think nihilism is classically conceived totally is almost more like
ontological or metaphysical, And by that I just mean looking
at these structures of belief in the world. So rather
(07:42):
than being like motivated by hatred or love or fear
or whatever, a more classically nihilists few is just again like, oh,
I've been sold a bill of goods on what the
meaning of existences or what the undermining underlying principles of
political reality are, And now I see that they are
maybe bs.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
The hatred of society and wanting to collapse it.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Yeah, I guess there's just like this negativity associated with
all that language. And of course I was having never
heard the definitions that you were just bringing up, you know,
the way in which it just quickly zigs and zags
to like some very dark stuff in terms of like radicalization.
That seemed like there was a reference towards like a
like like pedophilia or something there.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Child sexual abust materials. Yeah, come up a little bit.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Yeah, Yeah, so it just getting from A to B.
There is more like getting from A to Z or something.
It's just not a connection that I think would be
obvious to anyone who has thought about, read about written
about nihilism as more of an intellectual or even like
a political and philosophical concept.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Totally, because there is like political nihilists and like the
Russian tradition and more recently in like the American Aniatest
tradition or the Greek anarchist tradition, where they believe in
this like idea of like intigation and trying to trying
to like negate to government institutions.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
Yeah, but which is still a far cry from believing
in causing active harm psychologically, physically whatever to human beings
vulnerable populations. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, there's a sense in which
it's painted as like if you knew nothing else and
you were to read those definitions and you were just
scared suburban insurance salesman or something, it would sound as
(09:17):
if it was like a death cult infecting the minds
of children, like zombie esque little super soldiers.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
That's actually what they're going for. And I have I
have a lot of mixed opinions on this term because
I think this term is trying to describe a group
that does kind of defy classification. But I think the
use of the nihilist term is also not good. So
I'm kind of in a rock and a hard place
here as someone who does a lot of extremism research. Now,
(09:45):
the other term that the FBI is probably seeking to replace,
at least in part with this new nihilism definition is
racially or ethnically motivated violent extremism. Right, this is like
your what term assists your neo nazis. The FBI defines
it as quote. This threating compasses the potentially unlawful use
or threat of force or violence and furtherance of ideological
(10:06):
agendas derived from bias, often relating to race or ethnicity
held by the actor against others or a given population group.
Racially or ethnically motivated Violet extreamists purported to use both
political and religious justifications to support their racially or ethnically
based ideological objectives and criminal activities. This was the group
that saw like a massive, a massive explosion and growth
(10:29):
the past ten years, really starting around twenty sixteen to
twenty seventeen, with you know, the Neo Nazi mass shooting
like epidemic, especially around like twenty seventeen to twenty nineteen.
This is the most lethal group and it grew exponentially
during that period, and we're kind of seeing some of
these groups start to reform now. Now there's been some
(10:50):
reporting that this that this anti government or anti authority
violent extremism, which I'm just going to say agave, which
is the acronym, which does make me a little bit
hungry for a glucose syrup, but it's fine. Now, there's
been some reporting that state agave is specifically like a
Biden era term, but it actually like predates the Biden
(11:11):
presidency and was in use under Trump. In fact, a
lot of the internal FBI reforms that are being reported
on right now are actually undoing changes and counter terrorism
strategies that started under the first Trump presidency. But we'll
get more on that later. We're gonna go on an
ad break real quick and return to talk about a
(11:31):
gruesome act of violence in Wisconsin last month. All right,
we are back. I'm gonna get more into how the
government is using this term and like what they are
(11:51):
applying it to, what they're applying the nihilist of violent
extremism labeled to. Earlier this year, a Wisconsin team mal
Nikota Cassup killed his parents in an attempt to gain
the financial means and autonomy necessary to carry out a
plot to assassinate President Trump and accelerate the collapse of
the United States. I'm going to read a quote from
(12:15):
a federal criminal complaint filed last month. Quote. On March third,
twenty twenty five, County sheriffs obtained a search warrant for
casp cell phone. During the review, they identified material on
the phone related to quote unquote the order of nine angles.
The sheriff's review of the phone identified possible usernames for Cassup,
including Accelerationists fourteen and Awoken unquote. Now, Michael are you
(12:40):
unfortunate enough to be familiar with the Order of Nine Angles?
Speaker 4 (12:44):
I am not so.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
This is a group that was originally based in the
UK and now is primarily active in Eastern Europe, though
there are branches or spin offs called nexions in the
United States. This is a group that is kind of
hard to find. People often call it a Nazi Satanist group.
I think it's more accurate to call them a like
white supremacist, a cultic group who essentially try to cultivate
(13:10):
evil for the sake of evil. They're like a left
hand Path, a cult group that has orchestrated multiple terrorist attacks,
especially through radicalizing US soldiers. At this point, they're pretty
mythic with their writing and tactics, leaving a strong lingering
presence across the left hand Path, fascist, occult mill u.
(13:31):
We also have a reference to quote unquote accelerationism here,
which kind of similar to nihilism. Is like this philosophical
term which has kind of been like warped and changed
VIA's people's application of it in politics, and specifically kind
of the way that we're going to be using this
word here is this idea of trying to like accelerate
the collapse of the country, mostly to install like a
(13:53):
white spremacist AFT in a state after the country has collapsed.
This is how most Nazis use the term, even though
it has a slightly different cultural back ground with the
work of Nick Land and Fisher.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
When I was growing up, acceleration just man accelerating the
contradictions of capitalism.
Speaker 4 (14:06):
But kids these days, that's right, not a good one.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
So this federal criminal complaint alleges that Cassip was communicating
with people on the messaging app Telegram, and these people
were possibly in Ukraine and or Russia, and these people
helped him plan this attack. The FBI found TikTok messages
on his phone where he discussed the struggle of telling
his friends that he quote unquote follows O nine A
(14:34):
teachings that's order of nine angles, and he discussed a
previous FBI visit to his home in twenty twenty three.
In other exchanges on TikTok, he shared information with a
user named Nihilis about how to find Nazi telegram channels.
I'm gonna I'm gonna read through some of this. Some
of this chat transcript Nihilis, Hey, dude, do you know
(14:55):
any telegram groups where niners that's oh, nine A and
drex can interact and exchange info. Awoken, that's cassup. Sorry No,
I'm mostly in NSWP telegram groups l ol. If you
do find any, it'd be nice if you tell me nihilis.
What's WP awoke, Wikipedia dot org, slash national underscore, socialism underscore,
(15:20):
white power, nihilus, Oh, white power cool? Awoken? Do you
know any on nine A telegram groups? Nihlis? Oh, not
a group, but a channel. You can find documents there. Awoken?
All right, send awoken? Can you send me the link
to the account? Awoken? It says, I can't access the message, Nihlis,
How can I do that? Wait a second? Awoken. Here's
(15:42):
my telegram user name, Accelerationists fourteen nihilis. I sent a message,
So there you go.
Speaker 4 (15:48):
That's the man.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Just There is some later telegram messages that are archived
in this in this complaint as well, where at Accelerationists says,
what country do you think will get the blame for this?
Meaning his planned attack? An unknown user replied, Russia will
be blamed for it. This is the goal, Accelerationist said. Quote.
(16:11):
When the time comes for me to send my manifesto
to you so you can spread it online. Should it
be a pdf? Also?
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Sorry, I just like that when the contacts all that
they're discussing file types, and.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Also you won't anyhow change or modify the manifesto, The
unknown user replies, write it on a piece of paper
and take a picture.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
The FBI personnel performing the preliminary review saw images of
a three page document titled Accelerate the Collapse. The images
are screen grabs displayed on a phone, and these images
were created on February twenty eight, twenty twenty five. This
document is the manifesto referred to by at Accelerationist. The
manifesto calls for the assassination of the President of the
(16:55):
United States in order to ferment a political revolution in
the United States to quote unquote is save the white
race from quote unquote Jewish controlled politicians. The third page
of the document contains images of Adolf Hitler with text
that reads quote Hail Hitler, Hail the White Race, Hail victory. Now,
from what I can read of this manifesto, it's pretty basic.
(17:15):
It's heavily plagiarized, like most of these kind of white
supremacist accelerationist manifestos are It talks about how Jews control
white countries and are promoting white genocide and degeneracy. Talks
about the need to quote unquote collapse Jewish occupied governments.
The manifesto states that his motivation for wanting to kill
Trump was to sow chaos and raise public awareness that
(17:38):
quote assassinations and accelerating the collapse are possible things to do.
Unquote not that possible since he's arrested and did not
accelerate the collapse. But he also advocates that people unable
to commit to taking direct action instead make connections with
other white supremacists and grow a network to take over
the country once America collapses. He recommends the writing of
(17:59):
not accelerationists, including James Mason, who wrote the influential Nazi
book Siege, and the Terror gram Collective, a group of
white premacists from around the world who organized on the
messaging platform telegram to share guides on how to do terrorism.
He also recommends the writings of former Adam Waffen, members
an American accelerationist group, writing quote, there's much to learn
(18:21):
from the successes and mistakes of Adam Waffin. I think
it's worth noting that Adam Waffin was also either like
infiltrated or partially co opted and inspired by some nine
A teachings. This is kind of how the more bizarre
and occultic influence of O nine A seeped more into
the kind of general American accelerationist Nazi millu. This was
(18:43):
like in like twenty eighteen. Now. Castip advises that if
the reader of the manifesto is already like pilled, that
you should just skip the theory and just read practical
how to guides for terrorism and bomb making, since quote unquote,
there is no political solution. Huge amounts of violence will
be required long past the days where we can vote
(19:03):
for a Hitler to save us. White revolution is the
only solution, unquote, which is I guess I'm kind of
desensitized to this sort of stuff. In fact, I just
find this slightly funny considering kind of the victory lap
that like Steven Miller and like white nationalists are currently
having in the government where many of them do think
they can just vote for a Hitler to save us,
and that Hitler may already be in office forever.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Well, that is it's so shocking hearing all this as
someone that doesn't know all these details. I mean, a
I feel like the blinders just got taken off me
and I'm seeking the world anew But be shocking that
from a more normy perspective, in my mind, I would
think all of these types would be pretty excited about
how things are going politically, not trying to tear things
down further.
Speaker 4 (19:46):
It's like, you guys won you know, accept it.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Even Trump is not extremely enough for a lot of
these guys. Yeah, they really go places now. Cassup was
coordinating with multiple Telegram users, likely in Ukraine and Russia,
on how to build a drone that can up and
explosive and paid some individuals for some of the required materials,
and also had a plan to flee to Ukraine after
his attack. That he was coordinating with Ukrainian Nazis on telegram.
Speaker 4 (20:13):
Tough look for telegram.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
It's always a tough look for telegram. Not great, not
a great platform, pretty much only used by these guys.
Speaker 4 (20:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
No, he was talking about how he probably needs to
quote unquote brush up on my Russian Ah, yeah, definitely
before he flees to Ukraine after trying to kill the president.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Yeah, you download due lingo after you do that.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
That's right, That's right. He had plans to meet up
with with ten people with similar beliefs in Ukraine.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
My mind is just so blown by all this. I
thought I knew things. I know nothing now.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
On March tenth, Sheriffs interviewed a classmate of cassup, and
the classmate told them that the cassip would send quote
unquote gore edit videos that floods flashing like gore, like
bodygore imagery and war images put to Russian music sent
via Snapchat. This is a common tactic done by these
(21:11):
sort of like teenage extremists. This is this is a
whole like subgenre of video that has like changed and
altered in esthetic multiple times. Frankly, if you spend enough
time on Twitter now in the comments of blue check
Neo Nazis, you can find some of these edits where
they have like you know, like techno techno like fast
paced sometimes like Russian music set to like you know,
(21:32):
glorified images of like like like Rome or Nazi Germany,
or a large variety of stuff. But the gore genre
is specifically unique to kind of the to the oh
nine to a like a cultic Nazi branch, because they
think that like viewing these images like increases your power
level of like evil.
Speaker 4 (21:50):
Right.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
It's a very video game view of like of like
spiritual development. Like you have to you have to like
raise your evil stat by looking at gore and this
will make you more able to commit like big acts
of violence.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
WHOA, So just desensitizing yourself to them, it just makes
you a more violent person and capable of doing these
things yourself.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Correct correct, And that's like a big part of their process.
This is why they send this type of stuff to
a lot of like kids on the internet, because they
hope that if they deesitize these kids, it'll be easier
to convince them to then do acts of violence themselves.
Cassip told his classmate that he intended to kill his
parents by shooting them, but could not because he didn't
have access to a gun. He later told his classmate
(22:30):
that he would befriend someone with a gun and then
steal it, and told him that he was in contact
with a male in Russia via telegram and that they
were both plotting to overthrow the government of the United
States and assassinate President Trumps told the classmate that when
he saw ten consecutive attacks in the news, it would
have to be him.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
I've already transitioned to the sort of person who can
now laugh at this because of the absurdity.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Oh my gosh, and get those laughs in now, because
the next section is much more dark. Oh no, because
it's it's funny to laugh at a guy like this
who mostly failed. I mean, he did kill his parents,
that is. Oh no, he did kill his parents. He
did flee through a different state. He wasn't smart enough,
though he at least tracked him on him and his parents'
(23:16):
cell phone and their car who he still had with him.
So again, not a very good attacker, I guess. But no,
like this, this kid murder of his parents sat in
the house with their decomposing bodies for twelve days before
trying to carry out the rest of his attack on
the United States. So yeah, though though he did not
(23:38):
succeed in his larger goals like these, these people still
absolutely do get like groomed into doing violence. And this
is something that that happens at a pretty frequent basis, honestly,
to the point where these types of things don't make
giant headlines anymore. They would have maybe in twenty seventeen,
but now a lot of journalists are desensitized to this,
and because it happens so frequently, it is less newsworthy,
(24:02):
which is a very unfortunate place to be in for
a country. Do you know what else is unfortunate? Michael?
Speaker 4 (24:07):
Oh no, what what's that?
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Having to pivot to ads actually necessary evil.
Speaker 4 (24:13):
It's way better than killing your parents.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Uh yes, yes, I will go on record. I will
go on record, eat me, get aboard. Sorry, I love ads. Actually,
as it heads up, the next section will reference online
(24:37):
exploitation and child sexual abuse material. All right, we are back.
Let's get more depressing. Unfortunately, but I think we will
find a way to turn this around. Well, not like
in an optimistic way, but in a way that it's
like useful. Well, we'll learn something together. So at the
end of this section of this complaint that attempts to
(24:59):
just describe Cassip's collapse driven political ideology is the appearance
of this new term, nihilistic violent extremists. Right now. This
was actually the second time this term has appeared in
court documents. The earliest appearance of this term was in
a March sentencing memo for a child sexual abuse material
case first filed in November twenty twenty four, which was
(25:21):
linked to the seven six' four child extortion and exploitation.
Network Ken, kleppenstein who first reported on the use of
the nihilism, term missed this first appearance and attributed the
origin to the cassup. Case, michael are you similarly unfortunate
enough to be aware of seven six?
Speaker 3 (25:39):
Four this is another one where my brain is more pure.
THAN yours i guess at this point three day have to,
get ruined so let's still let's.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Do, IT yeah i mean it has been for a lot.
Of People like i've been doing like, extremism Research and
i've been aware of these guys for about. Four YEARS
the fbi think first did their public announcement like warning
parents about this in twenty. Twenty three seven six four
is like a network of groups that operate either, On,
Discord telegram instagram social. Media apps they're kind of inspired
(26:10):
by some ASPECTS of OZ, nine a but they are
much more focused on the production and distribution of child
sexual abuse materials and trying to manipulate groom and like
blackmail and extort miners into producing. THIS material a lot
of it's done by other, Miners too like a lot
of this is teens targeting, other teens with adults kind
of helping this. Process along it's a pretty. Big problem
(26:32):
there's been some good reporting on It in Wired And
the guardian the past, few years if you want to. Read,
more Now this march sentencing memo for the seven six
four case describes seven six four and related groups as
quote nihilist violent extremists who engage in criminal conduct Within
The united states and engage with other. Extremists abroad seven
(26:53):
six to Four networks accelerationist goals include social unrest in
the downfall of the current, world order Including The united.
States government members of seven six four work in concert
with one another towards a common purpose of destroying civilized
society through the corruption and exploitation of, vulnerable populations. Including,
MINORS now i think this this definition may be a bit,
(27:14):
too generalizing but it's. Not incorrect, like this this is
correct in what the explicit goals of this, group are
maybe not just every individual member of. This GROUP but
i think it would be a mistake to kind of
dismiss this definition as, outlandishly, Grandiose right it kind of
it calls into like my, you know like, conspiracy theory,
(27:37):
like framing because it sounds very like extravagant, and complicated
and it kind, of is but it's also it's also,
like simple it's it's people trying to automate the process
of producing and distributing. Illegal MATERIALS but i do believe
it is a mistake to completely, dismiss this both in
terms of like the government trying to ascribe political motive
for the distribution of, these materials and also the ideological
(27:58):
justifications held by some members of. These groups now there
have been two more seven six four Cases from april
of twenty twenty five that have used the nihilist of
violent extremism designation in. Court, documents now part of kind
of the struggle with, this is Like ken, kleinpenstein, reported
quote it sounds to me like some demented philosophical justification
(28:19):
for just being, a pedophile and like, It is but
that doesn't mean the political motivations shouldn't, be discounted because
those motivations impact how, they operate how these, groups spread
which targets, they pick and other political actions members, might
take like mass shootings targeting, racial MINORITIES targeting. Lgbtq individuals,
(28:41):
SO yeah i get this is kind OF why i
pushed back a little bit on this kind of dismissive
tone towards this, like larger almost conspiratorial kind of matrix
put onto groups like seven. Six, four now part of
the tricky thing with use of this new nihilism term
is that it's being used to rope in a variety
of horrific incidents under a singular. Nebulous, Category right so
(29:05):
let's take the Case.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
Of.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Cassup Here cass up that the guy who killed his
parents in a plot to Collapse The united states is
a relatively bog standard Like neo nazi accelerationist with seemingly
no direct ties to seven to six four activity besides
an INTEREST in O, nine a which was just one
of the inspirations that influenced seven sixty four as it
evolved into its own complex machine about five. Years Ago
(29:26):
but cassup openly admitted to being Radicalized by nazism and
the white power, movement online and yet in his criminal
complaint contains an expanded version of the nihilist violent, extremism
definition which is literally copy and pasted from a child
sexual abuse material sentencing memo from five, days before so
they just used the same thing despite it not really applying.
(29:47):
Reading quote individuals are, targeted online often through synchronized. Group
chats nihilist violent extremists frequently conduct coordinated extortions of individuals
by blackmailing them so they comply with demands of. The
network these demands vary, and include but are not, limited
to self mutilation online or, in person, sexual acts harms, to,
animals sex sexual exploitation of siblings, and others acts, of
violence threats, of, violence suicide, and murder so very very.
(30:10):
Dark stuff the definition goes on to state how vulnerable
individuals are targeted and members of the group attempt to
gain notoriety throughout the network and spread fear among those
targeted individuals for the purpose of accelerating the downfall of
society and otherwise achieving the goal of nihilist. Violent extremists
so while that does accurately describe groups like seven to,
six four it doesn't really relate to the Case. Of
(30:33):
kassap it's tricky because a lot of these seven six
four guys Are, also nazis and a Lot of nazis are.
Also pedophiles some of these guys start off as like
evil occultic pedophiles who Associate with nazism because it's a
pretty universal symbol. Of evil and sometimes it's the vice
versa where they start off as like An anti semitic,
(30:54):
right Winger a nazi Or, a fascist who then associate
with this weird pedo occult stuff for variety of reasons,
like spiritual perverted pleasure or tactical, network building and usually
usually it's, A mix, klippenstein. Writes quote the Warrant alleges
castip was in touch With the Order Of, nine Angles
a Satanic neo nazi group that, espouses accelerationism a fancy
(31:15):
word for the belief that destabilizing the social order allows for.
Radical change that is pretty heady stuff to ascribe to
a seventeen year old and ends up having the feeling
of an episode of altered. Carbon UNQUOTE and i kind
of like reject this, Dismissive, framing, like no these seventeen
year olds are thinking, About this they are getting convinced
of this. Material online that is the motivation for this
(31:37):
isn't like a science. Fiction thing this is real and
it's pretty common among like extremists. This age there's a
lot of young teenage. Male extremists that's kind of their,
main demographic and this type of stuff, Is, popular like
this is at least popular within this small group. Of extremists,
so yeah it is a little, bit heady but this
(31:58):
is what they are genuinely thinking. About it it's not
incorrect to like ascribe that. To them cassup openly admitted
to this, connection well and.
Speaker 4 (32:05):
To even speak to the flip side.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
Of that, you know over the years making philosophy stuff,
On YouTube i've gotten in touch with people who reached
out to, be, Like oh i've been watching stuff since
high SCHOOL when i was, LIKE fifteen i was watching
these like philosophy YouTube videos on heady ideas and. Reading
stuff so, LIKE me i was one of. These, people
yeah there's like young folks out there who take big
ideas very seriously and they have more absolute less than
(32:28):
ever of. These things so it doesn't and it doesn't
shock me at all that some teen could go down
that rabbit hole or even could start reading Like A
kurtis Jarvin Or nick land and going down those rabbit holes,
and stuff especially now that some of these people are,
you know put on Like The New york.
Speaker 4 (32:42):
Times and stuff.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
Like that, so exactly it seems weird to. DISMISS that
i can understand the impulse to be like this just
seems like a, very stupid evil. Teen, kid totally it
seems just, As plausible like you're pointing out that there
could be an actual engagement, with ideas and that's it's
important to recognize that because anymore to get at the
root of.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
That exactly, and like these people aren't necessarily like philosophical
nihilists or, existential nihilists but they could be interpreted as
reacting to a general like passive nihilistic culture with this
form of like pseudo, political nihilism this attempt at like,
social negation like total. Systems collapse but even still they
aren't totally, political nihilists since they have a very clear
(33:23):
system of hierarchy that they want the current world order.
Replaced with though these individuals may be seen as like
victims of nihilism and like in like in Like the. Nietzschean,
sense now like my main problem with the nihilist violent
extremism term is that it's so depoliticized and like in
a way that's rife for. Political abuse this term can
(33:44):
be used to cover what the government deems as violence
stemming from like apathy from frustration, with society as well
as like anti tech or anti. Civilization politics and this
is all coming from like. Top down at The New
federal Bureau. Of investigation, For Years cash pattel has closely
associated with Q. And on has helped the legal defense
Campaigns for january, sixth insurrectionists Which Included, Proud, boys oathkeepers Since,
(34:08):
three percenters and now as head OF, the fbi HE'S
investigating fbi agents who Worked those january. Sixth Cases, joe
kent the new director Of the National Counter, terrorism center
has made media Appearances With nick fuentes And neo Nazi YouTuber.
David carlson He Hired proud boys to consult in his failed,
congressional campaign and his Friends With patriot Prayer Leader. Joey
gibson kent has repeatedly called FOR the fbi To. Investigate
(34:31):
antifa the co founder Of The Global project against Hat,
And Extremism, heidi barrick has Said THAT patel's QAnon Links
and Deputy Director dan bongino's public conspiracism and bigotry make
taking the threat of far right extremism qute unquote impossible
for these. Two men, she, SAYS quote i think it
makes it very unlikely that the far right will continue
(34:52):
to be seen as the threat it actually is in
terms of hate crimes and. Domestic terrorism all this marks
a huge departure from The first, trump administration where THE
the fbi for the first time declared wise premacy the
country's greatest domestic. Terrorism threat facts about violence and its
perpetuators probably won't matter this, time. Around unquote and these
changes are already. Taking place an old counter terrorism strategy
(35:14):
guide was removed From The white house Website. IN january
A current fbi agent was Quoted In vanity, fairs, saying
quote the key is The Domestic Intelligence. Operations guide if they,
Change that patel will be able to shift domestic terrorism
investigations away from the accelerationists and the right wing street
fighters and towards THINGS like Blm and. Antifa unquote patel
(35:35):
has Cut The Domestic terrorism office staffing and reassigned agents and,
intelligence analysts with NEW senior fbi officials reportedly considering to
disband the entire domestic terrorism. Operations section, in ADDITION the
fbi has discontinued their previous Domestic terrorism, tracking tool where
they take relevant investigations to identify and track trends for
(35:56):
terrorism probes across. The country sources for Outlet's like reuters
say that changes to the agency will reduce counter terrorism
operations against far right and racially motivated the creamists. And Militias,
jacob ware a domestic terrorism expert At the Council On,
foreign Relations told, reuter's quote there is a, BROADER desire
i think within the administration to at best ignore data
(36:17):
and put their head in, the sand and at worst
to realign resources away from this. BATTLE unquote a Spokesperson
For higher Representative Of jim Jordan told reuters that the
termination of the domestic terrorism tracking tool is a quote
great step in the right direction of RETURNING the fbi
to its primary crime fighting. Mission Unquote representative jordan previously
(36:39):
in twenty, twenty three ran a congressional panel that ALLEGED
the fbi terrorism case tagging tool was being improperly used to.
Target Conservatives after, january sixth THREE former fbi agents testified
At the republican, led panel and two of those former
agents admitted to being Paid, by patel who at the
time was not director OF. The fbi he was just
(36:59):
a right. Winger influencer after being kicked out of the
government after The first, trump administration we've also Seen The
Joint Terrorism task force largely shift their efforts towards, immigration
ENFORCEMENT helping ice, with deportations and the so called Wave of.
Tesla terrorism and like the other thing is that this
(37:21):
new nihilist violent extremism term isn't just REPLACING. A gave
it's not just replacing the anti government or anti authority
of violent extremism BECAUSE the agave term itself has, three
subcategories as referenced TO an fbi document that outlines domestic
terrorist activity from twenty fifteen to, twenty nineteen this includes
a militia, violent extremists anarchists, violent extremists and sovereign citizen.
(37:42):
Violent extremists and even in addition to, those three there's
actually a newer subclassification from twenty twenty three CALLED a,
gave other which really isn't a great term. At all
this is the problem with trying to use these like
tracking and tagging tools is that they can get. Very
convoluted but now they've seemingly collapsed all of these and
(38:03):
are just using the.
Speaker 5 (38:04):
Term nihilism so would, you, say like when you bring
Up the, tesla example is one of to be very,
reductive here the big risks at play that like someone
Who starts tesla on fire or causes some damage At
a tesla dealership largely for the motivation of trying to
stick It To elon musk or something like that gets
(38:25):
classified in a way BY the fbi that is similar
to some of the folks you have previously talked about exactly.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
Doing things that most rational humans could agree are deeply
more insidious than like set a car.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
On fire they can frame this as like a rejection. Of,
society yeah the. Same way like there's been talk that
they're going to try to use this label to explain
Cases Like UNITED, healthcare ceo shooting, of ars Attack At josh.
Shapiro's house they're going to be using this term to
apply to kind of any act that they see is
like a contrary to like society and civilization and anything
(38:56):
that's stemming from frustration. With society and that's that's a.
Huge problem and in, doing so they're shifting focus away
from right wing militias who do the majority of like actual.
Lethal violence when these reports from like the past five years,
talk about, you know militia, violent extremism it talks about
how there is an increase to lethal threat from these
(39:17):
militias to law enforcement and government personnel due to factors
related to grievances from the perceptions of fraud in the twenty,
twenty election government measures RELATED to covid nineteen and legislation
to restrict firearms or expand immigration or manage. Public land
and these are the people that do the vast majority
of planned attacks or. Executed attacks this report between twenty
(39:38):
three outlines two attempted bombings by militia violenctreamists in early twenty,
twenty one one by an individual targeted against data center
thought to provide services TO the FBI, and cia the
author by two people against A State democratic party Headquarters, In,
sacramento california as well as the quote unquote do dozens
of militia violenctaramists arrested for their Involvement in. January sixth
(39:59):
so even though we're going to take the gas off
of groups like those as well as as racially motivated,
violent creamists this definition can still include a lot of
like anarchist, violent creamists WHICH the fbi admits in a
twenty twenty three report are most likely to engage in
non lethal criminal activity and just impact law.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
Enforcement, operations yeah it makes me think of like climate activism,
as well and, you know the work of those in
the climate community that call for like the destruction of
equipment and not the harm of human. LIFE totally, i
mean and the irony of course that you could call someone,
you know disabling an oil pipeline a nihilist extremists when
the act they're doing is precisely for the purpose of
(40:38):
ensuring the continued existence of human civilization on a.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
Large scale that's the big. Issue here Like the trump
government still wants a term that focuses on what some
people would like colloquially refer to as like, accelerationist terrorism
and that does encompass some of the extremist violence from
the weirder corners of the, far right like in the Case,
of cassup but as well as as like leftists or
posts left like. Anarchistic extremism but in the, administration's mind
(41:05):
the previous terms for this were tainted by crackdowns on
right wing or patriot Movements after, january sixth and like
the nihilist of violence streamism term is not replacing the
term terrorism necessarily like The way clippenstein's suggested in, his
article the word terrorism appears frequently in these very documents
that we've. Been discussing nor does the term terrorism have
quote unquote limitations, in Law as klippenstein said that like
(41:29):
prevent its use in. Political prosecution, if anything it carries
kind of special powers of punishment which can be over
applied to increase, the sentences, swayed juries and. Strip rights
we've seen bills To label antifa as terrorists introduced to,
this year The whole tesla, terrorism thing, and historically like
the use of terrorism has been used as a repression
Tool In Atlanta's Stop cop, city movement which similarly has
(41:53):
like a climate focus like. You mentioned and what this
new nihilism term lets them do is it ALLOWS the
dromp administration to see to their base that they aren't
going to be going after like right wing malicious style,
groups anymore not, anti government anti. Authority, extreamists instead they're
just going to target zany weirdos who want to destroy
society it's, a looser more flexible term that can be
(42:13):
applied to a much wider swath. Of people and like
the kind of FINAL thing i WANT to i want
to note here is that four groups like like seven,
six four we really don't have a good term. For
them like some people have defended this nihilistic term specifically
for groups like seven, six four since that was where
it originally appeared in an industry that these groups kind
of defy. Classic categorization some of them are certainly motivated
(42:35):
by racial bias in the Case, of cassup who's like
tied With, oin a but not specifically seven. Six four
but a lot of these other seven six four guys
who are mostly in it for, the pedophilia still do
have anti government ideologies that they are roped. In WITH
now i have seen a few alternative terms lofted by
certain independent researchers that don't really do a good job
(42:56):
but are gaining Influence under. Trump's government there's This like
freeland Researcher named rebecca Or, bix wrights who mostly Operates.
On twitter she's proposed the term satanic accelerationism or s
act Not good and this kind of outlines my problems
with this person's research now because all of the legitimate
extremism researchers have kind of moved Away from twitter and
(43:18):
are Just On. Blue, sky now people like this have
like exploded in Influence under elon's Shepherding, of twitter and
like this this person just spreads like satanic panic style
writing that appeals To conservative. Christian audiences she boasts about
how many mutuals she has With these. Nazi terrorists she Posts,
on rumble she went On, info wars so that kind
(43:38):
of tells you everything you need to know about. This
person and like a big part of her work is
trying to downplay the right wing and a white supremacist influence.
In extremism she excitedly, posted QUOTE the fbi has coined
a new term for this type, of individual nihilist. Bilin
extremists this makes me so happy because it indicates that
law enforcement are listening to researchers on the grid and
(44:00):
are no longer considering these Groups neo nazis or quote unquote.
White supremacist, so yeah this is a big part of
this push is appealing to these types of people who
don't want their weird pedo freaks to be labeled as,
right wing even though they all are pretty far right
wing terrorists in. Most cases this researcher also falsely Linked
(44:21):
cast up With A ukrainian nazi GROUP. Called mku she
later retracted this claim, on substack but left the original
viral tweet up online because. Hey engagement her substack post,
reads QUOTE when i first heard the News of Nikota,
cast up my mind immediately darted to ANOTHER nine A
and mku linked Individual. Named nikota this turned out to
(44:42):
be a, MERE coincidence, i know because The other nikota
reached out to me personally. To clarify it's moments like
these that caused me to reflect on just how big
this movement really is and just how close to THE
fire i. Am unquote this is not how you do.
Extremism reporting this is not how you, do journalism but
This does i'm. And straight kind of the problem with
this term, is, that yeah groups like this do need a,
(45:04):
different term maybe, like accelerationists violent. A creamists that's a
term you could use that if you're going to remove
all the. Other acronyms but certainly the nihilism label just
kind of complicates things and allows for the targeting of
just a massive swath of the population that could become
like political prosecutions that then get linked to these child
sexual abust. Material, cases okay that is my that's my that's. My,
(45:29):
script michael how do you feel about that? Info dump i'm, so.
Speaker 3 (45:32):
SORRY truly i you know YOU'VE and i can send it.
To it you've extracted a part of my soul and
put it into a. Cosmic, TOILET today i know More
than i've known before as a as, a human As,
an american as. A parent i'm terrified on. Every front and,
you know my my simple guy takeaway here is, the
(45:54):
yeah like the idea that this is going to both
let some of the worst ball off, the hook or
at least make it harder to classify them with.
Speaker 4 (46:03):
The groups they should be, classified with while also.
Speaker 3 (46:05):
Making it easier to lump in forms of what many
of us would consider more reasonable political activism under that
umbrella is. Quite BAD and, i think, of course, for
me due to my. Pet interest, you know all of
these instances of continuing, to like pervert and misuse, philosophical
(46:26):
terms to have meanings developed over hundreds and thousands of
years for these political ends is.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
Very, Upsetting well i'm excited to usher in the new
Wave of kirkergardian violent extremists who are going to usher in.
Speaker 4 (46:37):
Total get me on. A list. STOP it.
Speaker 2 (46:42):
I am actually sorry that this went on nearly double
the length OF which i thought it. Had planned after
such a, Depressing episode i'm going to ask a kind
of an, odd question what philosophy booked do you think
people should read in this, political moment because a lot
of people are approaching me with, like HOW do i?
Stay sane HOW do i stay HOW do i keep
(47:03):
going when things feel? So bad and, For me i've
always turned. To philosophy i've been recommending different books to,
different Friends and i'm kind of interested in what you
have to say about kind of what philosophy can offer
us in these times of like. Existential.
Speaker 3 (47:17):
TORMENT yeah i mean a really simple ONE that i
talk about way too Much Is Cure care guards To The,
present age which you find in this Book Called two
ages that's easy. To buy it's normally, really cheap or
you can just read it. Online someplace that kind of
describes a society in which people get caught up in
media and reflection and the bs they are told rather
(47:38):
than developing their subjectivity, for themselves and that one's. Really
great in terms of more, Contemporary stuff i've Been Very
frederick jamison pilled recently NICE and, I think, I mean
I've read jamison before on, and off but recently dove in.
More deeply and There's, ONE okay i have it at,
arms REACH so i can say that the title Correctly
that i've really. Been enjoying it's Called An American Utopia
(48:00):
dual power In The universal Army By, frederick jamison edited By,
Saw voygijiak and it's This large jamison essay about what
he sees as an alternative for leftist Power, in america
responses from a bunch of. OTHER scholars i have found it.
Very interesting but, for me AT least i find comfort
in the fact that others have accurately diagnosed and understood
(48:23):
what is happening right now and at least give us
the tools to understand the thing so it feels less nebulous.
Speaker 4 (48:30):
And mysterious we.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
Don't have to reinvent the wheel all. The, time yeah
and that's SOMETHING that i feel like some leftists kind
of get, trapped in or it's kind of a two,
sides thing is what some people just get fully lost
in like the labyrinth, of theory and the other people
get lost in trying to constantly reinvent or like make
for the first time stuff that, already, Exists RIGHT and
i think there's a really careful balance between like reading
(48:54):
some stuff so that you can like know what's going
on and not feel the need to try to, like
it cause every, you know philosophical evolution to come about
via your. Own, thought yeah you don't have to be
the one to.
Speaker 4 (49:07):
Do it someone else are.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
You doing you're, not alone like other people have, done
this and you should still like think for yourself and.
Still compare but people have thought about this type of.
Stuff before people have been in bad political, situations before
and it's it's useful to know what. They've thought and
like this, is like, you know my work is mostly
looking at like current events and like trying to track
but like extremism and like what the government, is doing and,
you know more information always helps me choose how to
(49:30):
navigate in. The world THAT'S why i do episodes, Like
THIS and i think philosophy is just one other side.
Of that unless you have anything else, to say do
you want to talk about where people can find you
online and your new.
Speaker 3 (49:41):
YouTube, CHANNEL yeah i have a recently launched YouTube channel
that's just under The NAME Michael oh BURNS and i
think it's literally just YouTube SLASH Michael o burns, them,
quickly yep YouTube SLASH Michael o Burns or i'm gonna
be doing more stuff, quite regularly extremes and, radio essays
largely doing some of the stuff we're just, talking about
(50:03):
using philosophy and concepts and from theory to try to
understand what's going on in both the political and like
the social and interpersonal Levels that i'm working on A
thing i'm excited about on like depression and capitalism and.
Speaker 4 (50:14):
Mental health, so Yeah and i'm on all most of
the Social media's.
Speaker 3 (50:18):
I'm Just michael Burns OR Michael, o burns relatively easy
to find on.
Speaker 2 (50:23):
Most, places well thank you, So much michael for joining
me in this dive through the darkest depths Of the
internet and, the extremes a milieu that is Festering in america.
And abroad thanks for.
Speaker 4 (50:37):
Having me.
Speaker 2 (50:41):
It.
Speaker 1 (50:41):
Could happen here is a production Of Cool. Zone media
for more podcasts From Cool, zone media visit our Website
cool zonemedia dot com or check us out On the,
iHeartRadio app, apple podcasts or wherever you listen. To podcasts
you can now find sources for it could, happen here
listed directly in. Episode descriptions thanks, for listening
Cool media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
This is It could Happen Here a show about things
falling apart, and this episode is about the people who
want to make it being the United States fall apart
even faster, allowing them to install a white s parremacist
ethno state, though it kind of feels like that's pretty
much already happening. This episode is also about the people
in government who categorize and classify want to be terrorists,
(00:27):
who want the country to collapse faster, and what these
changes in categorization methods can tell us about the future
of the country. I'm Garrison Davison today I'm joined by
a very special guest, philosopher and comedian Michael Burns of
the YouTube channel Michael o'burns and formerly wiscrack rip.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
How you doing pretty good, you know, besides living in
the world that you just described past that everything's going great.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Yeah, that's kind of been my mood the past three months,
maybe longer. There's a tad, a tad like liminality. But
I don't know if that's just like living in denial
and trying to cope. But hey, you know what's wrong
with a little bit of coping.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Especially if it helps one simply survive these times. So
you know, I encourage a healthy dose of of coping
or sort of a you know, mental bifurcation, if that's
what we need to do to get up in the
morning and get through it all.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
Yay.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Now, Unfortunately, this episode that I have prepared today is
uh not a super cheery one for you, Michael, which
is which is maybe kind of kind of appropriate because
the reason why I have you on this episode today
is because the FBI and the Department of Justice have
come up with a new terrorism classification acronym which name
(01:47):
drops the internet's favorite and sometimes least favorite philosophy, nihilism.
They're they're calling these guys nihilistic violent extremists. Oh boy,
we will, we will get into this. Do you want
to give like a philosophy one oh one definition of nihilism?
A super well known and universally agreed upon term that
(02:10):
always means the same thing to everybody.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
So yeah, it's not confusing it at all.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
And yeah, I mean I think the root of it,
at least in like a modern philosophical sense is Nietzsche.
At least that's a common reference point. And when Nietzsche
is talking about nihilism, especially in a book like The
Genealogy Morality a lot of other places, he is making
the argument that sort of Christian European culture, and particularly
(02:34):
a Christian European culture influenced by idealist philosophy, creates nihilism.
The reason he says it creates nihilism is because people
care more about Heaven than they do about earth. They
care more about the life they're going to have an
eternity than the life they have in the here and now.
So for him, it's like this devaluement of life that happens.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
If your Christianity.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
More broadly speaking, nihilism has a I guess more positive usage,
which is the you know, disbelief in the inherent or
necessary meaning in an overarching.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
System like in like the existential sense.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Yeah, so you kind of have this this distinction, and
some people use of positive and negative nihilism, and to
be really crass and simple here, negative nihilism is nothing
means anything, So I don't give a shit. I'm just
gonna hang out and do whatever. Positive nihilism is there's
no inherent meaning in reality, but cool. Now, me and
the homies can construct meaning as we see fit, which
(03:33):
is more like the existentialist response, We're going to create
meaning where maybe there wasn't natural meaning in this like
old school Platonic or Christian sense.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
And I'm not sure how much the FBI agents who
are doing these federal court filings have read Nietzsche or
the French existentialists and instead of probably using a colloquial
definition of nihilism, right this like oh nothing matters, you know,
this like app anthetic, postmodernist like idea to go a
(04:03):
little Jordan Petersony, right.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
Yeah, I mean I think there's the sense in which
it is the kind of weird Jordan Petersony alright, philosophy
version of nihilism, which just means like people that think
the dominance of the West is bad. And it also
reeks a little bit of like big Lebowski nihilism for totally,
you know. And of course in that movie, nihilism is
(04:25):
represented by a crew of I think Austrian techno producers
called Autobahn, who are also nihilists, and they say throughout
the film like we are nihilist, we believe in nothing,
which is a really and obviously the Coen Brothers made
that film, at least one of them was a philosophy major,
so they know what they're doing. That's kind of the
really basic, not good enough version of this thing that
it seems like the FBI is operating with, like people
(04:47):
who don't believe in the goodness of the Western project.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Correct, and that's what they're really honing in on. I
will read an expanded definition of of nihilistic violent extremism.
This is This is from a Federal court filing and
dated March eighteenth, twenty twenty five. Nihilist violent extremists are
individuals to engage in criminal conduct within the United States
and abroad in furtherance of political, social, or religious goals
that derive primarily from a hatred of society at large
(05:14):
and a desire to bring about its collapse by sowing
indiscriminate chaos, destruction, and social instability. Nihlis violent extremists work
individually or as a part of a network with these
goals of destroying civilized society through the corruption and exploitation
of vulnerable populations, which often include minors. Now, this is
where it's going to get into some kind of weirder
(05:36):
stuff that we will kind of explain later. They have
like a second definition here quote nihilist vile extreamists, both
individually and as a network, systematically and methodically target vulnerable
populations across the United States and the globe. They frequently
use social media communication platforms to connect with individuals and
desensitize them to violence, among other things, breaking down societal
norms regarding engaging in violence, normalizing the possession, production, and
(06:01):
sharing of gore materials, and otherwise corrupting and grooming those
individuals towards committing future acts of violence unquote. And that
kind of outlines some of the strategy of these groups,
the groups that they're kind of gonna mention here. I've
been doing like freelance research on for about four years now.
(06:22):
I've been trying to publish a few articles on these
guys over the years, but it's always it's always tricky,
and we will get to kind of the darker corners
of that in a sect. But let's let's first kind
of talk about what this new term, this nvees nihilist
violent extremists. What this is kind of replacing the in
(06:42):
the FBI lexicon. Now, it seems that this term is
being used in place of two previous FBI terrorism categories.
This is from a November twenty twenty FBI bulletin quote
anti government or anti authority violent extremism. This threatet ncompasses
the potentially unlawful use or threat of force or violence
(07:05):
in furtherance of ideological agendas derived from anti government or
anti authority sentiment, including opposition to perceived economic, social, or
racial hierarchies, or perceived government overreach, negligence, or illegitimacy.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Can I say something that stood out to me about
those definitions? The hatred thing I found really interesting in
like the very first definition you give that nihilism is
defined as like in a motive state, because again, I
think nihilism is classically conceived totally is almost more like
ontological or metaphysical, And by that I just mean looking
at these structures of belief in the world. So rather
(07:42):
than being like motivated by hatred or love or fear
or whatever, a more classically nihilists few is just again like, oh,
I've been sold a bill of goods on what the
meaning of existences or what the undermining underlying principles of
political reality are, And now I see that they are
maybe bs.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
The hatred of society and wanting to collapse it.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Yeah, I guess there's just like this negativity associated with
all that language. And of course I was having never
heard the definitions that you were just bringing up, you know,
the way in which it just quickly zigs and zags
to like some very dark stuff in terms of like radicalization.
That seemed like there was a reference towards like a
like like pedophilia or something there.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Child sexual abust materials. Yeah, come up a little bit.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Yeah, Yeah, so it just getting from A to B.
There is more like getting from A to Z or something.
It's just not a connection that I think would be
obvious to anyone who has thought about, read about written
about nihilism as more of an intellectual or even like
a political and philosophical concept.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Totally, because there is like political nihilists and like the
Russian tradition and more recently in like the American Aniatest
tradition or the Greek anarchist tradition, where they believe in
this like idea of like intigation and trying to trying
to like negate to government institutions.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
Yeah, but which is still a far cry from believing
in causing active harm psychologically, physically whatever to human beings
vulnerable populations. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, there's a sense in which
it's painted as like if you knew nothing else and
you were to read those definitions and you were just
scared suburban insurance salesman or something, it would sound as
(09:17):
if it was like a death cult infecting the minds
of children, like zombie esque little super soldiers.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
That's actually what they're going for. And I have I
have a lot of mixed opinions on this term because
I think this term is trying to describe a group
that does kind of defy classification. But I think the
use of the nihilist term is also not good. So
I'm kind of in a rock and a hard place
here as someone who does a lot of extremism research. Now,
(09:45):
the other term that the FBI is probably seeking to replace,
at least in part with this new nihilism definition is
racially or ethnically motivated violent extremism. Right, this is like
your what term assists your neo nazis. The FBI defines
it as quote. This threating compasses the potentially unlawful use
or threat of force or violence and furtherance of ideological
(10:06):
agendas derived from bias, often relating to race or ethnicity
held by the actor against others or a given population group.
Racially or ethnically motivated Violet extreamists purported to use both
political and religious justifications to support their racially or ethnically
based ideological objectives and criminal activities. This was the group
that saw like a massive, a massive explosion and growth
(10:29):
the past ten years, really starting around twenty sixteen to
twenty seventeen, with you know, the Neo Nazi mass shooting
like epidemic, especially around like twenty seventeen to twenty nineteen.
This is the most lethal group and it grew exponentially
during that period, and we're kind of seeing some of
these groups start to reform now. Now there's been some
(10:50):
reporting that this that this anti government or anti authority
violent extremism, which I'm just going to say agave, which
is the acronym, which does make me a little bit
hungry for a glucose syrup, but it's fine. Now, there's
been some reporting that state agave is specifically like a
Biden era term, but it actually like predates the Biden
(11:11):
presidency and was in use under Trump. In fact, a
lot of the internal FBI reforms that are being reported
on right now are actually undoing changes and counter terrorism
strategies that started under the first Trump presidency. But we'll
get more on that later. We're gonna go on an
ad break real quick and return to talk about a
(11:31):
gruesome act of violence in Wisconsin last month. All right,
we are back. I'm gonna get more into how the
government is using this term and like what they are
(11:51):
applying it to, what they're applying the nihilist of violent
extremism labeled to. Earlier this year, a Wisconsin team mal
Nikota Cassup killed his parents in an attempt to gain
the financial means and autonomy necessary to carry out a
plot to assassinate President Trump and accelerate the collapse of
the United States. I'm going to read a quote from
(12:15):
a federal criminal complaint filed last month. Quote. On March third,
twenty twenty five, County sheriffs obtained a search warrant for
casp cell phone. During the review, they identified material on
the phone related to quote unquote the order of nine angles.
The sheriff's review of the phone identified possible usernames for Cassup,
including Accelerationists fourteen and Awoken unquote. Now, Michael are you
(12:40):
unfortunate enough to be familiar with the Order of Nine Angles?
Speaker 4 (12:44):
I am not so.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
This is a group that was originally based in the
UK and now is primarily active in Eastern Europe, though
there are branches or spin offs called nexions in the
United States. This is a group that is kind of
hard to find. People often call it a Nazi Satanist group.
I think it's more accurate to call them a like
white supremacist, a cultic group who essentially try to cultivate
(13:10):
evil for the sake of evil. They're like a left
hand Path, a cult group that has orchestrated multiple terrorist attacks,
especially through radicalizing US soldiers. At this point, they're pretty
mythic with their writing and tactics, leaving a strong lingering
presence across the left hand Path, fascist, occult mill u.
(13:31):
We also have a reference to quote unquote accelerationism here,
which kind of similar to nihilism. Is like this philosophical
term which has kind of been like warped and changed
VIA's people's application of it in politics, and specifically kind
of the way that we're going to be using this
word here is this idea of trying to like accelerate
the collapse of the country, mostly to install like a
(13:53):
white spremacist AFT in a state after the country has collapsed.
This is how most Nazis use the term, even though
it has a slightly different cultural back ground with the
work of Nick Land and Fisher.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
When I was growing up, acceleration just man accelerating the
contradictions of capitalism.
Speaker 4 (14:06):
But kids these days, that's right, not a good one.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
So this federal criminal complaint alleges that Cassip was communicating
with people on the messaging app Telegram, and these people
were possibly in Ukraine and or Russia, and these people
helped him plan this attack. The FBI found TikTok messages
on his phone where he discussed the struggle of telling
his friends that he quote unquote follows O nine A
(14:34):
teachings that's order of nine angles, and he discussed a
previous FBI visit to his home in twenty twenty three.
In other exchanges on TikTok, he shared information with a
user named Nihilis about how to find Nazi telegram channels.
I'm gonna I'm gonna read through some of this. Some
of this chat transcript Nihilis, Hey, dude, do you know
(14:55):
any telegram groups where niners that's oh, nine A and
drex can interact and exchange info. Awoken, that's cassup. Sorry No,
I'm mostly in NSWP telegram groups l ol. If you
do find any, it'd be nice if you tell me nihilis.
What's WP awoke, Wikipedia dot org, slash national underscore, socialism underscore,
(15:20):
white power, nihilus, Oh, white power cool? Awoken? Do you
know any on nine A telegram groups? Nihlis? Oh, not
a group, but a channel. You can find documents there. Awoken?
All right, send awoken? Can you send me the link
to the account? Awoken? It says, I can't access the message, Nihlis,
How can I do that? Wait a second? Awoken. Here's
(15:42):
my telegram user name, Accelerationists fourteen nihilis. I sent a message,
So there you go.
Speaker 4 (15:48):
That's the man.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Just There is some later telegram messages that are archived
in this in this complaint as well, where at Accelerationists says,
what country do you think will get the blame for this?
Meaning his planned attack? An unknown user replied, Russia will
be blamed for it. This is the goal, Accelerationist said. Quote.
(16:11):
When the time comes for me to send my manifesto
to you so you can spread it online. Should it
be a pdf? Also?
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Sorry, I just like that when the contacts all that
they're discussing file types, and.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Also you won't anyhow change or modify the manifesto, The
unknown user replies, write it on a piece of paper
and take a picture.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
The FBI personnel performing the preliminary review saw images of
a three page document titled Accelerate the Collapse. The images
are screen grabs displayed on a phone, and these images
were created on February twenty eight, twenty twenty five. This
document is the manifesto referred to by at Accelerationist. The
manifesto calls for the assassination of the President of the
(16:55):
United States in order to ferment a political revolution in
the United States to quote unquote is save the white
race from quote unquote Jewish controlled politicians. The third page
of the document contains images of Adolf Hitler with text
that reads quote Hail Hitler, Hail the White Race, Hail victory. Now,
from what I can read of this manifesto, it's pretty basic.
(17:15):
It's heavily plagiarized, like most of these kind of white
supremacist accelerationist manifestos are It talks about how Jews control
white countries and are promoting white genocide and degeneracy. Talks
about the need to quote unquote collapse Jewish occupied governments.
The manifesto states that his motivation for wanting to kill
Trump was to sow chaos and raise public awareness that
(17:38):
quote assassinations and accelerating the collapse are possible things to do.
Unquote not that possible since he's arrested and did not
accelerate the collapse. But he also advocates that people unable
to commit to taking direct action instead make connections with
other white supremacists and grow a network to take over
the country once America collapses. He recommends the writing of
(17:59):
not accelerationists, including James Mason, who wrote the influential Nazi
book Siege, and the Terror gram Collective, a group of
white premacists from around the world who organized on the
messaging platform telegram to share guides on how to do terrorism.
He also recommends the writings of former Adam Waffen, members
an American accelerationist group, writing quote, there's much to learn
(18:21):
from the successes and mistakes of Adam Waffin. I think
it's worth noting that Adam Waffin was also either like
infiltrated or partially co opted and inspired by some nine
A teachings. This is kind of how the more bizarre
and occultic influence of O nine A seeped more into
the kind of general American accelerationist Nazi millu. This was
(18:43):
like in like twenty eighteen. Now. Castip advises that if
the reader of the manifesto is already like pilled, that
you should just skip the theory and just read practical
how to guides for terrorism and bomb making, since quote unquote,
there is no political solution. Huge amounts of violence will
be required long past the days where we can vote
(19:03):
for a Hitler to save us. White revolution is the
only solution, unquote, which is I guess I'm kind of
desensitized to this sort of stuff. In fact, I just
find this slightly funny considering kind of the victory lap
that like Steven Miller and like white nationalists are currently
having in the government where many of them do think
they can just vote for a Hitler to save us,
and that Hitler may already be in office forever.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Well, that is it's so shocking hearing all this as
someone that doesn't know all these details. I mean, a
I feel like the blinders just got taken off me
and I'm seeking the world anew But be shocking that
from a more normy perspective, in my mind, I would
think all of these types would be pretty excited about
how things are going politically, not trying to tear things
down further.
Speaker 4 (19:46):
It's like, you guys won you know, accept it.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Even Trump is not extremely enough for a lot of
these guys. Yeah, they really go places now. Cassup was
coordinating with multiple Telegram users, likely in Ukraine and Russia,
on how to build a drone that can up and
explosive and paid some individuals for some of the required materials,
and also had a plan to flee to Ukraine after
his attack. That he was coordinating with Ukrainian Nazis on telegram.
Speaker 4 (20:13):
Tough look for telegram.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
It's always a tough look for telegram. Not great, not
a great platform, pretty much only used by these guys.
Speaker 4 (20:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
No, he was talking about how he probably needs to
quote unquote brush up on my Russian Ah, yeah, definitely
before he flees to Ukraine after trying to kill the president.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Yeah, you download due lingo after you do that.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
That's right, That's right. He had plans to meet up
with with ten people with similar beliefs in Ukraine.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
My mind is just so blown by all this. I
thought I knew things. I know nothing now.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
On March tenth, Sheriffs interviewed a classmate of cassup, and
the classmate told them that the cassip would send quote
unquote gore edit videos that floods flashing like gore, like
bodygore imagery and war images put to Russian music sent
via Snapchat. This is a common tactic done by these
(21:11):
sort of like teenage extremists. This is this is a
whole like subgenre of video that has like changed and
altered in esthetic multiple times. Frankly, if you spend enough
time on Twitter now in the comments of blue check
Neo Nazis, you can find some of these edits where
they have like you know, like techno techno like fast
paced sometimes like Russian music set to like you know,
(21:32):
glorified images of like like like Rome or Nazi Germany,
or a large variety of stuff. But the gore genre
is specifically unique to kind of the to the oh
nine to a like a cultic Nazi branch, because they
think that like viewing these images like increases your power
level of like evil.
Speaker 4 (21:50):
Right.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
It's a very video game view of like of like
spiritual development. Like you have to you have to like
raise your evil stat by looking at gore and this
will make you more able to commit like big acts
of violence.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
WHOA, So just desensitizing yourself to them, it just makes
you a more violent person and capable of doing these
things yourself.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Correct correct, And that's like a big part of their process.
This is why they send this type of stuff to
a lot of like kids on the internet, because they
hope that if they deesitize these kids, it'll be easier
to convince them to then do acts of violence themselves.
Cassip told his classmate that he intended to kill his
parents by shooting them, but could not because he didn't
have access to a gun. He later told his classmate
(22:30):
that he would befriend someone with a gun and then
steal it, and told him that he was in contact
with a male in Russia via telegram and that they
were both plotting to overthrow the government of the United
States and assassinate President Trumps told the classmate that when
he saw ten consecutive attacks in the news, it would
have to be him.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
I've already transitioned to the sort of person who can
now laugh at this because of the absurdity.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Oh my gosh, and get those laughs in now, because
the next section is much more dark. Oh no, because
it's it's funny to laugh at a guy like this
who mostly failed. I mean, he did kill his parents,
that is. Oh no, he did kill his parents. He
did flee through a different state. He wasn't smart enough,
though he at least tracked him on him and his parents'
(23:16):
cell phone and their car who he still had with him.
So again, not a very good attacker, I guess. But no,
like this, this kid murder of his parents sat in
the house with their decomposing bodies for twelve days before
trying to carry out the rest of his attack on
the United States. So yeah, though though he did not
(23:38):
succeed in his larger goals like these, these people still
absolutely do get like groomed into doing violence. And this
is something that that happens at a pretty frequent basis, honestly,
to the point where these types of things don't make
giant headlines anymore. They would have maybe in twenty seventeen,
but now a lot of journalists are desensitized to this,
and because it happens so frequently, it is less newsworthy,
(24:02):
which is a very unfortunate place to be in for
a country. Do you know what else is unfortunate? Michael?
Speaker 4 (24:07):
Oh no, what what's that?
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Having to pivot to ads actually necessary evil.
Speaker 4 (24:13):
It's way better than killing your parents.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Uh yes, yes, I will go on record. I will
go on record, eat me, get aboard. Sorry, I love ads. Actually,
as it heads up, the next section will reference online
(24:37):
exploitation and child sexual abuse material. All right, we are back.
Let's get more depressing. Unfortunately, but I think we will
find a way to turn this around. Well, not like
in an optimistic way, but in a way that it's
like useful. Well, we'll learn something together. So at the
end of this section of this complaint that attempts to
(24:59):
just describe Cassip's collapse driven political ideology is the appearance
of this new term, nihilistic violent extremists. Right now. This
was actually the second time this term has appeared in
court documents. The earliest appearance of this term was in
a March sentencing memo for a child sexual abuse material
case first filed in November twenty twenty four, which was
(25:21):
linked to the seven six' four child extortion and exploitation.
Network Ken, kleppenstein who first reported on the use of
the nihilism, term missed this first appearance and attributed the
origin to the cassup. Case, michael are you similarly unfortunate
enough to be aware of seven six?
Speaker 3 (25:39):
Four this is another one where my brain is more pure.
THAN yours i guess at this point three day have to,
get ruined so let's still let's.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Do, IT yeah i mean it has been for a lot.
Of People like i've been doing like, extremism Research and
i've been aware of these guys for about. Four YEARS
the fbi think first did their public announcement like warning
parents about this in twenty. Twenty three seven six four
is like a network of groups that operate either, On,
Discord telegram instagram social. Media apps they're kind of inspired
(26:10):
by some ASPECTS of OZ, nine a but they are
much more focused on the production and distribution of child
sexual abuse materials and trying to manipulate groom and like
blackmail and extort miners into producing. THIS material a lot
of it's done by other, Miners too like a lot
of this is teens targeting, other teens with adults kind
of helping this. Process along it's a pretty. Big problem
(26:32):
there's been some good reporting on It in Wired And
the guardian the past, few years if you want to. Read,
more Now this march sentencing memo for the seven six
four case describes seven six four and related groups as
quote nihilist violent extremists who engage in criminal conduct Within
The united states and engage with other. Extremists abroad seven
(26:53):
six to Four networks accelerationist goals include social unrest in
the downfall of the current, world order Including The united.
States government members of seven six four work in concert
with one another towards a common purpose of destroying civilized
society through the corruption and exploitation of, vulnerable populations. Including,
MINORS now i think this this definition may be a bit,
(27:14):
too generalizing but it's. Not incorrect, like this this is
correct in what the explicit goals of this, group are
maybe not just every individual member of. This GROUP but
i think it would be a mistake to kind of
dismiss this definition as, outlandishly, Grandiose right it kind of
it calls into like my, you know like, conspiracy theory,
(27:37):
like framing because it sounds very like extravagant, and complicated
and it kind, of is but it's also it's also,
like simple it's it's people trying to automate the process
of producing and distributing. Illegal MATERIALS but i do believe
it is a mistake to completely, dismiss this both in
terms of like the government trying to ascribe political motive
for the distribution of, these materials and also the ideological
(27:58):
justifications held by some members of. These groups now there
have been two more seven six four Cases from april
of twenty twenty five that have used the nihilist of
violent extremism designation in. Court, documents now part of kind
of the struggle with, this is Like ken, kleinpenstein, reported
quote it sounds to me like some demented philosophical justification
(28:19):
for just being, a pedophile and like, It is but
that doesn't mean the political motivations shouldn't, be discounted because
those motivations impact how, they operate how these, groups spread
which targets, they pick and other political actions members, might
take like mass shootings targeting, racial MINORITIES targeting. Lgbtq individuals,
(28:41):
SO yeah i get this is kind OF why i
pushed back a little bit on this kind of dismissive
tone towards this, like larger almost conspiratorial kind of matrix
put onto groups like seven. Six, four now part of
the tricky thing with use of this new nihilism term
is that it's being used to rope in a variety
of horrific incidents under a singular. Nebulous, Category right so
(29:05):
let's take the Case.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
Of.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Cassup Here cass up that the guy who killed his
parents in a plot to Collapse The united states is
a relatively bog standard Like neo nazi accelerationist with seemingly
no direct ties to seven to six four activity besides
an INTEREST in O, nine a which was just one
of the inspirations that influenced seven sixty four as it
evolved into its own complex machine about five. Years Ago
(29:26):
but cassup openly admitted to being Radicalized by nazism and
the white power, movement online and yet in his criminal
complaint contains an expanded version of the nihilist violent, extremism
definition which is literally copy and pasted from a child
sexual abuse material sentencing memo from five, days before so
they just used the same thing despite it not really applying.
(29:47):
Reading quote individuals are, targeted online often through synchronized. Group
chats nihilist violent extremists frequently conduct coordinated extortions of individuals
by blackmailing them so they comply with demands of. The
network these demands vary, and include but are not, limited
to self mutilation online or, in person, sexual acts harms, to,
animals sex sexual exploitation of siblings, and others acts, of
violence threats, of, violence suicide, and murder so very very.
(30:10):
Dark stuff the definition goes on to state how vulnerable
individuals are targeted and members of the group attempt to
gain notoriety throughout the network and spread fear among those
targeted individuals for the purpose of accelerating the downfall of
society and otherwise achieving the goal of nihilist. Violent extremists
so while that does accurately describe groups like seven to,
six four it doesn't really relate to the Case. Of
(30:33):
kassap it's tricky because a lot of these seven six
four guys Are, also nazis and a Lot of nazis are.
Also pedophiles some of these guys start off as like
evil occultic pedophiles who Associate with nazism because it's a
pretty universal symbol. Of evil and sometimes it's the vice
versa where they start off as like An anti semitic,
(30:54):
right Winger a nazi Or, a fascist who then associate
with this weird pedo occult stuff for variety of reasons,
like spiritual perverted pleasure or tactical, network building and usually
usually it's, A mix, klippenstein. Writes quote the Warrant alleges
castip was in touch With the Order Of, nine Angles
a Satanic neo nazi group that, espouses accelerationism a fancy
(31:15):
word for the belief that destabilizing the social order allows for.
Radical change that is pretty heady stuff to ascribe to
a seventeen year old and ends up having the feeling
of an episode of altered. Carbon UNQUOTE and i kind
of like reject this, Dismissive, framing, like no these seventeen
year olds are thinking, About this they are getting convinced
of this. Material online that is the motivation for this
(31:37):
isn't like a science. Fiction thing this is real and
it's pretty common among like extremists. This age there's a
lot of young teenage. Male extremists that's kind of their,
main demographic and this type of stuff, Is, popular like
this is at least popular within this small group. Of extremists,
so yeah it is a little, bit heady but this
(31:58):
is what they are genuinely thinking. About it it's not
incorrect to like ascribe that. To them cassup openly admitted
to this, connection well and.
Speaker 4 (32:05):
To even speak to the flip side.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
Of that, you know over the years making philosophy stuff,
On YouTube i've gotten in touch with people who reached
out to, be, Like oh i've been watching stuff since
high SCHOOL when i was, LIKE fifteen i was watching
these like philosophy YouTube videos on heady ideas and. Reading
stuff so, LIKE me i was one of. These, people
yeah there's like young folks out there who take big
ideas very seriously and they have more absolute less than
(32:28):
ever of. These things so it doesn't and it doesn't
shock me at all that some teen could go down
that rabbit hole or even could start reading Like A
kurtis Jarvin Or nick land and going down those rabbit holes,
and stuff especially now that some of these people are,
you know put on Like The New york.
Speaker 4 (32:42):
Times and stuff.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
Like that, so exactly it seems weird to. DISMISS that
i can understand the impulse to be like this just
seems like a, very stupid evil. Teen, kid totally it
seems just, As plausible like you're pointing out that there
could be an actual engagement, with ideas and that's it's
important to recognize that because anymore to get at the
root of.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
That exactly, and like these people aren't necessarily like philosophical
nihilists or, existential nihilists but they could be interpreted as
reacting to a general like passive nihilistic culture with this
form of like pseudo, political nihilism this attempt at like,
social negation like total. Systems collapse but even still they
aren't totally, political nihilists since they have a very clear
(33:23):
system of hierarchy that they want the current world order.
Replaced with though these individuals may be seen as like
victims of nihilism and like in like in Like the. Nietzschean,
sense now like my main problem with the nihilist violent
extremism term is that it's so depoliticized and like in
a way that's rife for. Political abuse this term can
(33:44):
be used to cover what the government deems as violence
stemming from like apathy from frustration, with society as well
as like anti tech or anti. Civilization politics and this
is all coming from like. Top down at The New
federal Bureau. Of investigation, For Years cash pattel has closely
associated with Q. And on has helped the legal defense
Campaigns for january, sixth insurrectionists Which Included, Proud, boys oathkeepers Since,
(34:08):
three percenters and now as head OF, the fbi HE'S
investigating fbi agents who Worked those january. Sixth Cases, joe
kent the new director Of the National Counter, terrorism center
has made media Appearances With nick fuentes And neo Nazi YouTuber.
David carlson He Hired proud boys to consult in his failed,
congressional campaign and his Friends With patriot Prayer Leader. Joey
gibson kent has repeatedly called FOR the fbi To. Investigate
(34:31):
antifa the co founder Of The Global project against Hat,
And Extremism, heidi barrick has Said THAT patel's QAnon Links
and Deputy Director dan bongino's public conspiracism and bigotry make
taking the threat of far right extremism qute unquote impossible
for these. Two men, she, SAYS quote i think it
makes it very unlikely that the far right will continue
(34:52):
to be seen as the threat it actually is in
terms of hate crimes and. Domestic terrorism all this marks
a huge departure from The first, trump administration where THE
the fbi for the first time declared wise premacy the
country's greatest domestic. Terrorism threat facts about violence and its
perpetuators probably won't matter this, time. Around unquote and these
changes are already. Taking place an old counter terrorism strategy
(35:14):
guide was removed From The white house Website. IN january
A current fbi agent was Quoted In vanity, fairs, saying
quote the key is The Domestic Intelligence. Operations guide if they,
Change that patel will be able to shift domestic terrorism
investigations away from the accelerationists and the right wing street
fighters and towards THINGS like Blm and. Antifa unquote patel
(35:35):
has Cut The Domestic terrorism office staffing and reassigned agents and,
intelligence analysts with NEW senior fbi officials reportedly considering to
disband the entire domestic terrorism. Operations section, in ADDITION the
fbi has discontinued their previous Domestic terrorism, tracking tool where
they take relevant investigations to identify and track trends for
(35:56):
terrorism probes across. The country sources for Outlet's like reuters
say that changes to the agency will reduce counter terrorism
operations against far right and racially motivated the creamists. And Militias,
jacob ware a domestic terrorism expert At the Council On,
foreign Relations told, reuter's quote there is a, BROADER desire
i think within the administration to at best ignore data
(36:17):
and put their head in, the sand and at worst
to realign resources away from this. BATTLE unquote a Spokesperson
For higher Representative Of jim Jordan told reuters that the
termination of the domestic terrorism tracking tool is a quote
great step in the right direction of RETURNING the fbi
to its primary crime fighting. Mission Unquote representative jordan previously
(36:39):
in twenty, twenty three ran a congressional panel that ALLEGED
the fbi terrorism case tagging tool was being improperly used to.
Target Conservatives after, january sixth THREE former fbi agents testified
At the republican, led panel and two of those former
agents admitted to being Paid, by patel who at the
time was not director OF. The fbi he was just
(36:59):
a right. Winger influencer after being kicked out of the
government after The first, trump administration we've also Seen The
Joint Terrorism task force largely shift their efforts towards, immigration
ENFORCEMENT helping ice, with deportations and the so called Wave of.
Tesla terrorism and like the other thing is that this
(37:21):
new nihilist violent extremism term isn't just REPLACING. A gave
it's not just replacing the anti government or anti authority
of violent extremism BECAUSE the agave term itself has, three
subcategories as referenced TO an fbi document that outlines domestic
terrorist activity from twenty fifteen to, twenty nineteen this includes
a militia, violent extremists anarchists, violent extremists and sovereign citizen.
(37:42):
Violent extremists and even in addition to, those three there's
actually a newer subclassification from twenty twenty three CALLED a,
gave other which really isn't a great term. At all
this is the problem with trying to use these like
tracking and tagging tools is that they can get. Very
convoluted but now they've seemingly collapsed all of these and
(38:03):
are just using the.
Speaker 5 (38:04):
Term nihilism so would, you, say like when you bring
Up the, tesla example is one of to be very,
reductive here the big risks at play that like someone
Who starts tesla on fire or causes some damage At
a tesla dealership largely for the motivation of trying to
stick It To elon musk or something like that gets
(38:25):
classified in a way BY the fbi that is similar
to some of the folks you have previously talked about exactly.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
Doing things that most rational humans could agree are deeply
more insidious than like set a car.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
On fire they can frame this as like a rejection. Of,
society yeah the. Same way like there's been talk that
they're going to try to use this label to explain
Cases Like UNITED, healthcare ceo shooting, of ars Attack At josh.
Shapiro's house they're going to be using this term to
apply to kind of any act that they see is
like a contrary to like society and civilization and anything
(38:56):
that's stemming from frustration. With society and that's that's a.
Huge problem and in, doing so they're shifting focus away
from right wing militias who do the majority of like actual.
Lethal violence when these reports from like the past five years,
talk about, you know militia, violent extremism it talks about
how there is an increase to lethal threat from these
(39:17):
militias to law enforcement and government personnel due to factors
related to grievances from the perceptions of fraud in the twenty,
twenty election government measures RELATED to covid nineteen and legislation
to restrict firearms or expand immigration or manage. Public land
and these are the people that do the vast majority
of planned attacks or. Executed attacks this report between twenty
(39:38):
three outlines two attempted bombings by militia violenctreamists in early twenty,
twenty one one by an individual targeted against data center
thought to provide services TO the FBI, and cia the
author by two people against A State democratic party Headquarters, In,
sacramento california as well as the quote unquote do dozens
of militia violenctaramists arrested for their Involvement in. January sixth
(39:59):
so even though we're going to take the gas off
of groups like those as well as as racially motivated,
violent creamists this definition can still include a lot of
like anarchist, violent creamists WHICH the fbi admits in a
twenty twenty three report are most likely to engage in
non lethal criminal activity and just impact law.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
Enforcement, operations yeah it makes me think of like climate activism,
as well and, you know the work of those in
the climate community that call for like the destruction of
equipment and not the harm of human. LIFE totally, i
mean and the irony of course that you could call someone,
you know disabling an oil pipeline a nihilist extremists when
the act they're doing is precisely for the purpose of
(40:38):
ensuring the continued existence of human civilization on a.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
Large scale that's the big. Issue here Like the trump
government still wants a term that focuses on what some
people would like colloquially refer to as like, accelerationist terrorism
and that does encompass some of the extremist violence from
the weirder corners of the, far right like in the Case,
of cassup but as well as as like leftists or
posts left like. Anarchistic extremism but in the, administration's mind
(41:05):
the previous terms for this were tainted by crackdowns on
right wing or patriot Movements after, january sixth and like
the nihilist of violence streamism term is not replacing the
term terrorism necessarily like The way clippenstein's suggested in, his
article the word terrorism appears frequently in these very documents
that we've. Been discussing nor does the term terrorism have
quote unquote limitations, in Law as klippenstein said that like
(41:29):
prevent its use in. Political prosecution, if anything it carries
kind of special powers of punishment which can be over
applied to increase, the sentences, swayed juries and. Strip rights
we've seen bills To label antifa as terrorists introduced to,
this year The whole tesla, terrorism thing, and historically like
the use of terrorism has been used as a repression
Tool In Atlanta's Stop cop, city movement which similarly has
(41:53):
like a climate focus like. You mentioned and what this
new nihilism term lets them do is it ALLOWS the
dromp administration to see to their base that they aren't
going to be going after like right wing malicious style,
groups anymore not, anti government anti. Authority, extreamists instead they're
just going to target zany weirdos who want to destroy
society it's, a looser more flexible term that can be
(42:13):
applied to a much wider swath. Of people and like
the kind of FINAL thing i WANT to i want
to note here is that four groups like like seven,
six four we really don't have a good term. For
them like some people have defended this nihilistic term specifically
for groups like seven, six four since that was where
it originally appeared in an industry that these groups kind
of defy. Classic categorization some of them are certainly motivated
(42:35):
by racial bias in the Case, of cassup who's like
tied With, oin a but not specifically seven. Six four
but a lot of these other seven six four guys
who are mostly in it for, the pedophilia still do
have anti government ideologies that they are roped. In WITH
now i have seen a few alternative terms lofted by
certain independent researchers that don't really do a good job
(42:56):
but are gaining Influence under. Trump's government there's This like
freeland Researcher named rebecca Or, bix wrights who mostly Operates.
On twitter she's proposed the term satanic accelerationism or s
act Not good and this kind of outlines my problems
with this person's research now because all of the legitimate
extremism researchers have kind of moved Away from twitter and
(43:18):
are Just On. Blue, sky now people like this have
like exploded in Influence under elon's Shepherding, of twitter and
like this this person just spreads like satanic panic style
writing that appeals To conservative. Christian audiences she boasts about
how many mutuals she has With these. Nazi terrorists she Posts,
on rumble she went On, info wars so that kind
(43:38):
of tells you everything you need to know about. This
person and like a big part of her work is
trying to downplay the right wing and a white supremacist influence.
In extremism she excitedly, posted QUOTE the fbi has coined
a new term for this type, of individual nihilist. Bilin
extremists this makes me so happy because it indicates that
law enforcement are listening to researchers on the grid and
(44:00):
are no longer considering these Groups neo nazis or quote unquote.
White supremacist, so yeah this is a big part of
this push is appealing to these types of people who
don't want their weird pedo freaks to be labeled as,
right wing even though they all are pretty far right
wing terrorists in. Most cases this researcher also falsely Linked
(44:21):
cast up With A ukrainian nazi GROUP. Called mku she
later retracted this claim, on substack but left the original
viral tweet up online because. Hey engagement her substack post,
reads QUOTE when i first heard the News of Nikota,
cast up my mind immediately darted to ANOTHER nine A
and mku linked Individual. Named nikota this turned out to
(44:42):
be a, MERE coincidence, i know because The other nikota
reached out to me personally. To clarify it's moments like
these that caused me to reflect on just how big
this movement really is and just how close to THE
fire i. Am unquote this is not how you do.
Extremism reporting this is not how you, do journalism but
This does i'm. And straight kind of the problem with
this term, is, that yeah groups like this do need a,
(45:04):
different term maybe, like accelerationists violent. A creamists that's a
term you could use that if you're going to remove
all the. Other acronyms but certainly the nihilism label just
kind of complicates things and allows for the targeting of
just a massive swath of the population that could become
like political prosecutions that then get linked to these child
sexual abust. Material, cases okay that is my that's my that's. My,
(45:29):
script michael how do you feel about that? Info dump i'm, so.
Speaker 3 (45:32):
SORRY truly i you know YOU'VE and i can send it.
To it you've extracted a part of my soul and
put it into a. Cosmic, TOILET today i know More
than i've known before as a as, a human As,
an american as. A parent i'm terrified on. Every front and,
you know my my simple guy takeaway here is, the
(45:54):
yeah like the idea that this is going to both
let some of the worst ball off, the hook or
at least make it harder to classify them with.
Speaker 4 (46:03):
The groups they should be, classified with while also.
Speaker 3 (46:05):
Making it easier to lump in forms of what many
of us would consider more reasonable political activism under that
umbrella is. Quite BAD and, i think, of course, for
me due to my. Pet interest, you know all of
these instances of continuing, to like pervert and misuse, philosophical
(46:26):
terms to have meanings developed over hundreds and thousands of
years for these political ends is.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
Very, Upsetting well i'm excited to usher in the new
Wave of kirkergardian violent extremists who are going to usher in.
Speaker 4 (46:37):
Total get me on. A list. STOP it.
Speaker 2 (46:42):
I am actually sorry that this went on nearly double
the length OF which i thought it. Had planned after
such a, Depressing episode i'm going to ask a kind
of an, odd question what philosophy booked do you think
people should read in this, political moment because a lot
of people are approaching me with, like HOW do i?
Stay sane HOW do i stay HOW do i keep
(47:03):
going when things feel? So bad and, For me i've
always turned. To philosophy i've been recommending different books to,
different Friends and i'm kind of interested in what you
have to say about kind of what philosophy can offer
us in these times of like. Existential.
Speaker 3 (47:17):
TORMENT yeah i mean a really simple ONE that i
talk about way too Much Is Cure care guards To The,
present age which you find in this Book Called two
ages that's easy. To buy it's normally, really cheap or
you can just read it. Online someplace that kind of
describes a society in which people get caught up in
media and reflection and the bs they are told rather
(47:38):
than developing their subjectivity, for themselves and that one's. Really
great in terms of more, Contemporary stuff i've Been Very
frederick jamison pilled recently NICE and, I think, I mean
I've read jamison before on, and off but recently dove in.
More deeply and There's, ONE okay i have it at,
arms REACH so i can say that the title Correctly
that i've really. Been enjoying it's Called An American Utopia
(48:00):
dual power In The universal Army By, frederick jamison edited By,
Saw voygijiak and it's This large jamison essay about what
he sees as an alternative for leftist Power, in america
responses from a bunch of. OTHER scholars i have found it.
Very interesting but, for me AT least i find comfort
in the fact that others have accurately diagnosed and understood
(48:23):
what is happening right now and at least give us
the tools to understand the thing so it feels less nebulous.
Speaker 4 (48:30):
And mysterious we.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
Don't have to reinvent the wheel all. The, time yeah
and that's SOMETHING that i feel like some leftists kind
of get, trapped in or it's kind of a two,
sides thing is what some people just get fully lost
in like the labyrinth, of theory and the other people
get lost in trying to constantly reinvent or like make
for the first time stuff that, already, Exists RIGHT and
i think there's a really careful balance between like reading
(48:54):
some stuff so that you can like know what's going
on and not feel the need to try to, like
it cause every, you know philosophical evolution to come about
via your. Own, thought yeah you don't have to be
the one to.
Speaker 4 (49:07):
Do it someone else are.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
You doing you're, not alone like other people have, done
this and you should still like think for yourself and.
Still compare but people have thought about this type of.
Stuff before people have been in bad political, situations before
and it's it's useful to know what. They've thought and
like this, is like, you know my work is mostly
looking at like current events and like trying to track
but like extremism and like what the government, is doing and,
you know more information always helps me choose how to
(49:30):
navigate in. The world THAT'S why i do episodes, Like
THIS and i think philosophy is just one other side.
Of that unless you have anything else, to say do
you want to talk about where people can find you
online and your new.
Speaker 3 (49:41):
YouTube, CHANNEL yeah i have a recently launched YouTube channel
that's just under The NAME Michael oh BURNS and i
think it's literally just YouTube SLASH Michael o burns, them,
quickly yep YouTube SLASH Michael o Burns or i'm gonna
be doing more stuff, quite regularly extremes and, radio essays
largely doing some of the stuff we're just, talking about
(50:03):
using philosophy and concepts and from theory to try to
understand what's going on in both the political and like
the social and interpersonal Levels that i'm working on A
thing i'm excited about on like depression and capitalism and.
Speaker 4 (50:14):
Mental health, so Yeah and i'm on all most of
the Social media's.
Speaker 3 (50:18):
I'm Just michael Burns OR Michael, o burns relatively easy
to find on.
Speaker 2 (50:23):
Most, places well thank you, So much michael for joining
me in this dive through the darkest depths Of the
internet and, the extremes a milieu that is Festering in america.
And abroad thanks for.
Speaker 4 (50:37):
Having me.
Speaker 2 (50:41):
It.
Speaker 1 (50:41):
Could happen here is a production Of Cool. Zone media
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