June 26, 2024 • 41 mins
Mia talks with comedian, political satirist, and writer Justine Wanda about the movement against Kenya’s 2024 Finance Bill and how massive tax hikes on basic goods have driven Kenyans into the streets.
Instagram/TikTok @fakewokewithjustine, Twitter @officalFWWJ @justinewanda
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
All Zone Media.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Welcome to take it up and here a show that
today is very urgently about things falling apart in Kenya
and how to put them back together again. I'm your host,
Miya Wong. What you're about to hear is an interview
about the Kenyan protests that was recorded on Sunday, July
twenty third. At time of recording, it is now Tuesday,
the twenty fifth, and in that two day span, the
situation and Kenya has gotten significantly worse. Kenyan police are
(00:29):
firing live ammo into crowds of protesters. They've killed at
least five people today. That numbers expected to rise as
more protesters die in hospitals. The government has deployed the
army and shut down much of the internet in an
attempt to stop news from getting out. On Kenyan TV,
political leaders called the protesters criminals and a threat to
national security. Meanwhile, protesters made good on their slogan occupied
(00:52):
Parliament by storming and then partially burning down the Parliament building.
As politicians continue to meet their demands with bullets. What
we've seen today is terrifying cop shooting live ammo into churches,
Cops opening fire on people waiting for medical care. Meanwhile,
to the fury of the protesters, Kenyan troops arrived today
in Haiti to begin a US backed occupation of the country.
(01:12):
We spent this interview largely discussing the local Kenyan political leads,
but this is also an international crisis. Much of the
impetus for the brutal tax increases on basic goods came
from an International Monetary Fund bailout deal that required Kenya
to increase its taxes to twenty five percent of the
country's GDP. Thus, Kenyans are being robbed twice, once by
(01:32):
the Kenyan political masters of the cops shooting them in
the streets, and again by the IMF and their neolibal
wealth extraction program. As the struggle continues. Let us now
turn to our interview into a more optimistic time in
the movement to get a real understanding of what the
protests are about. Welcome to it could happen here a
podcast where the here is currently Kenya. Yeah, I'm your host,
(01:55):
Miya Wong, and we are going to talk about a
bunch of protests and a bunch of very very very
interesting sort of political developments in Kenya that I think
have gotten very distressingly little coverage in in the sort
of like Anglophone maation media. And with me to talk
about that is Justine Wanda is a stand up comedian,
a political satirist, and a writer who's created Fake Book
(02:18):
with Justine about well basically all the stuff that we're
going to be talking about today are the are the
things you will see on this show. Justine, Welcome to
the show.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Thank you so much for having me me. How are
you doing?
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Ah? You know, this is this This is one of
those morning recordings. So I'm a little bit unhinged, but
it's okay, We're I'm really excited to talk to you.
So yeah, yeah, I'm really excited to talk to you.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
And I yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
So I think I think the place to start here
is can you talk about so? So these protests are
about an upcoming finance bill, So let's talk about what
what actually is this bill and what seeing it?
Speaker 5 (03:01):
Okay, So for me to be able to talk about
the finance bill, I have to talk about the finance
bill that was past last year. So in twoy twenty three,
we had a financi will that was passed. Most of
the financial last year had something called the Housing levy,
which basically requires every single Kenyon who's employed to remove
(03:26):
a little bit of their salary to go directly to
pay for an account where they'll pull the money to build.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Kenyon's affordable houses.
Speaker 5 (03:36):
And in Kenya, housing is not especially a crisis in
rural areas because most people have their own personal films.
The issue is usually the urban centers where housing is
actually very expensive and it's very poorly infrastructured, like there's
no water, sometimes there's no electricity in certain parts, like
people have done a lot of illegal collection connections. So
(04:01):
last year the bill was kind of rummed through and
there was so much public participation.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Actually in the beginning that was like.
Speaker 5 (04:08):
A lot of people got angry about the bill forcing
people to take money out of their pockets to contribute
to a fund that didn't seem like they had a plan.
And a lot of politicians were actually on TV and
everyone was watching every interview and they're like, you don't
make any sense, we don't understand. Yeah, it's like what
is that money for? We're not sure, but we know
(04:31):
we're to building houses. How are you going to manage
the money? Who's going to be in charge of the
money how is this? Like every single aspect was met
by like some form of deflection or like a lie,
just like a lot of there wasn't any accountability in
the in what they were telling us. And even the
person who was in charge was like on TV, he
(04:53):
was sweating.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
He looked like he was lying though who time.
Speaker 5 (04:57):
So everyone was like, if this is how you're speaking
about it when we aren't giving out money, what will
happen after the fact. But the bill sailed through, and
one of the elements that was in that field that
wasn't even in the news was that avocado farmers in
the country will start with charging us, will be charged
(05:18):
a certain amount of money on their produce and they
have to produce receipts on this every single day.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
What like if yes, if you sell like.
Speaker 5 (05:27):
An avocado, one avocado or of avocadoes, you have to
do a breakdown of like your sales and like provide
recists to the government and then like you're charged for it.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Oh my god, yes, And the MPs this.
Speaker 5 (05:43):
Like earlier this year, were like when the bill usually
like sometimes it takes a while for the closest to
come into effect.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
It takes like maybe a.
Speaker 5 (05:52):
Couple of months, So the the amount the farmers were
supposed to get charged was supposed to go live on
sorry in February or something. So in February, farmers are
getting attacked by like the Kenya Revenue Authority. They're being
told you need to provide these receipts and everything, and
everyone is like, I don't understand because we weren't informed.
(06:12):
And then the politicians who did not read the bill
but past it were like, oh, we didn't read the document.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
It was too big.
Speaker 5 (06:20):
What yes, exactly, So like that kind of information was
what that was what was on the news just before
they introduced now the financial twenty four So it's like,
we know you didn't read the one from last year.
You passed a bunch of bills that you didn't understand
the impact of it in the long term, so why
(06:43):
should you Why should Kenyans trust you with this new one?
And then they were like, no, we have the best
economic interests that had And then everyone was like, but
the bill you passed last year to increase revenue didn't work,
So if it didn't work, what makes you having a
bunch of new taxes they're going to work? And they
couldn't answer that and now this finance built enter wants
(07:07):
to introduce much of your call tax where if you
own a car, you will pay like a certain amount
like I think two percent that's of the voliation of
your car, and you paid to your insurance company every
single year.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Wait to insurance?
Speaker 4 (07:27):
What what?
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Why?
Speaker 4 (07:29):
Wait? Hold on? So why why is the tax?
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Why is this being paid to the insurance company?
Speaker 5 (07:36):
Because that's that's how people are asking. It's like, we
understand because insurance and Kenya is mostly run by private
entities know exactly what they're doing, so it's more like
a way to privates and get money into peoples so
we can't see and then end up being stolen and
there will be no accountability. But they say it's easier
(07:56):
because the insurance company is already handled this kind of stuff.
So on top of your insurance, on top of the
insurance you pay for your car, you pay the motor
vehicle tax as part of that. And I'm like, that's ridiculous.
We don't trust our money on any given day. Why
would you think we would just to suddenly with a
(08:17):
bunch of money being branded by a private from somewhere
Because they're not going to show us their books.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Yes, it seems like part of this too, is just
that the sort of tax infrastructure isn't very like, the
tax collection infrastructure isn't very good, because you would think
that that wouldn't be that hard for the government to
just collect, but instead we have like a like an
Ottoman style tax farming situation.
Speaker 5 (08:44):
So I love it you say that, because like that's
how that's exactly how it feels like everything is run.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
It's very.
Speaker 5 (08:52):
Yeah, as much as people in the room, we can't
make the wrong decision, but you've made the wrong decision
again and again and again, and now we're like, we
want to see the approach. We want to understand how
this is going to work in the face of unemployment,
in the face of like the country has not been
in good economic trajectory for a while now, and that
those economic shocks can be felt. A lot of people
(09:16):
are closing down their businesses, a lot of people are downsizing,
which means it's less people employed. Even the beauty industry,
which is mostly like run on inputs because they're charging
so much input duty. The beauty industry can't even stand
on its own. So people are not just buying less makeup.
It's like people who are those stores and any of
(09:37):
those kinds of businesses can't even have the like their
person who comes to get their job days.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
It becomes a bit of a problem.
Speaker 5 (09:44):
So everyone is like, if you're going to charge us more,
you have to have an infrastructure.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
That works for us.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (09:51):
Another tax that they're adding on the finance bill is
the input duty fee to like sanitary towers, wheelchair higher,
like because like Kenya doesn't manufacture a lot of stuff.
So you find like our like the pad manufacturing industry
in Kenya, like sanitary towers, only two percent are manufactured here,
(10:13):
like a big chunk comes from outside, and they want
to increase their input duty on that. So that means
the pads in the market are going to be even
more expensive.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Yeah, and and that's something that like that that's not
that's not a like that's that's that's that's not a
luxury good. You just need that.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (10:33):
So everyone was like, Okay, I guess that we'll just
have to stop having periods. Is like that that's what
you're saying, Like we're gonna have to magically, Yeah, we're
gonna have to figure out magically with nature to just
stop having periods because you guys want to tax us
in this particular way, and it's it's not just like
(10:54):
the small things, because like the problem with the Kenyon's.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Piece, especially sensitive issues. So our.
Speaker 5 (11:04):
Our third president, his name was Mike Baki, was the first,
one of the first presidents in the world to remove
v ty on sanitary towers. Like he was seen as
like someone who's setting an example for so many people.
And then the fact that this is happening when this
(11:26):
country was seen as like a chin setter to like
not just African countries, but other countries around the world
when it comes to like very important goods, it was
felt like we were going backwards and not in a way.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
It's not like we didn't have an example to follow.
Speaker 5 (11:43):
We actually did have a set president on like how
an economy is supposed to work.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
So everyone who's grown up in this particular environment.
Speaker 5 (11:51):
Where they felt safe and protected by the government and
like the government taking they live on very important issues
was like, you can't say building Kenya, buying Kenya is
a top priority for you when even electricity costs are expensive. Yeah,
because even this will adds like a fuel levy tax
it it's going up by seven shillings, which is way
(12:15):
too expensive. So you pay for your fuel, but like
most of the charges on the fuel is just their
levies and taxes, and they're adding a little bit more year.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
And it seems like from the way that these are
being structured that you know, I mean, one of the
things with direct like I guess we call them sales
taxes here, is that they're incredibly regressive. The people who
get affected the most by it are the people who
you don't have that much money versus something like doing
you know, versus doing like an income tax, and like
(12:48):
the people who are the highest owners. This is the
burden of this falls entirely on people who are poor
and can't afford it.
Speaker 5 (12:55):
Yes, that's I think it's very scary to think a
lot of our poll titians because they get paid with
tax payer money, and what they did when during when
they were writing, when they were contributing to the budget,
they were like, we want, we want this and this,
want to be added for this and this thing.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
But the problem is, like when you look.
Speaker 5 (13:14):
Deep down what they're looking for, they don't want to
pay taxes off of their salaries. They want to find
a way for taxpayers to pay for part of the
taxes that are being added so that they.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
Don't have to lose money.
Speaker 5 (13:26):
And every yeah, everyone is like, we know you're budgeting
for corruption. We can see you, we can see still,
we can see you still, and we don't want to
be part of that. And now to them, it was like,
we're being aggressive because we want we want them to
be held accountable for their very punitive for the punitive
measures that they're sending to like regular opinions. As you said,
(13:49):
a lot of sales taxes affect every day before and
we don't know how else to stop it. And I
think that's why the protesters. So they're catching fire. Everyone
wants to be out in the street.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Yeah, and we are going to we are going to
come back and talk about the protests in a second,
but first I here, here are some products and services
that are I don't know, probably also being taxed.
Speaker 4 (14:14):
But all right, and we are back. Yeah, So okay.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
I think I think people should should have like a
decent understanding of the fact that these taxes are these
are taxes on basic commodities that people need. And that's
one of the easiest ways to start a protest movement
is to suddenly make it too expensive to live. So
let's talk about who, Yeah, how how these protests sort
(14:51):
of started and how they've been being organized.
Speaker 5 (14:54):
My issues that we can't really say how the protests started,
but there was a lot of anger by Kenyons online
because Kenyons are chronically online, like especially the younger generation,
a lot of people have cell phones, a lot of
people are not tuned into the news really, but the
information sharing happens where like when a clip from the
news is cut put on tiptop, people's see it like
(15:17):
this is happening, so so could get angry and then
they shared. So what happened with the the finance book.
People would cut very little clips from the news and
then someone would help put it in context. So that's
where my channel comes in, where I'm not just using
the news clips and provide evidence like I've go through
the finance built and then even consult with people who
(15:39):
are in like like ask lawyers on Twitter, like people
who have resources and understand the law or like what
that would mean for everyday canyons. I would literally reach
out and it got to a point where I am
now in communication with the right channels, like you can
directly ask how this would impact people, like if they
(15:59):
tax bread more or like refuse to make it easier
for suppliers to get items for the supply chain. How
does this affect everyday people? So that helps bridge the
graph of information and now with more people critically not
just looking at the news but finding the evidence for themselves.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Really have helped us get to a point where when
you share, we are protesting about this issue. This is
where we're going, this is what's happening, this this will
happen in a certain town. So like Nairobi had its
own occupy parliament reject the financial demonstration, it happened in
Mombasa too, it happened in neary Elder at all these
(16:41):
smaller towns where people were living. But they are people
from rural areas, they won't really care. And I'm like,
you don't know that. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (16:51):
And also something that's really magical that's happened. A lot
of Canons were like, Okay, maybe there there are a
lot of Kenyons who live in rural areas who don't
have media that doesn't cater to traditional listeners, like people
who only speak certain languages so vernacular stations. So people
started using TikTok to do direct translation. It's like this
(17:14):
is the script, Yes, this is the script for the
for the financi buildings. Are the taxes being added. This
is the tax on bread, This is the tax on
your on your vehicle. This is the tax that will
happen on like period and sanitary paths and diapers and everything.
So someone does the whole we've done in their vernacular
language and they share it on their family WhatsApp groups
called penance love wksapp.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
That's why if.
Speaker 5 (17:35):
You're if you want to do anything proper Ganda like,
you can easily both on WhatsApp. Before messages are crazy.
So because like WhatsApp is mostly co opted by antis
and moms and people who love to share. Please go
to chat share share these to seven friends. People took
that Monday to where they send it to their moms
(17:56):
and then have it shared like seven of their friends
who don't understand what the finance BILLI entails. And that
is really changing the landscape of like who gets to
interpret the bills, who gets to understand how.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
It influences them.
Speaker 5 (18:08):
And it's been very very effective, So people who are
passive are more and more understanding of like why everyone
is on the streets.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Yeah, it seems like it almost seems like there isn't
there's kind of a I don't know, it's like a
TikTok think tank that's been sort of doing this valuation
that has been spread through That's that's really cool.
Speaker 5 (18:30):
I'm just saying, it's absolutely lovely to see because like
tribalism has been a tool that's been wielded, especially during elections,
to make Kenyons look like they don't care about each
other and they can't go beyond their differences.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
And this time it's like, yeah, we do.
Speaker 5 (18:45):
Have language barriers, but we're not going to let that
affect us negatively. We're going to figure out our way
through the noise before they start co opting those spaces
and start saying, oh, gen z kids are lying or
millennials are just started getting money, so why would they
care about taxes? And so everyone is making sure that
those spaces are not corrupted.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Yeah, it seems like a really sort of incredible popular
education thing that's.
Speaker 4 (19:12):
Been empowering this.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Yeah, so I want to, I guess talk about I
mean one of the things that I think maybe kind
of breached the I don't know. Calling it like the
Great Firewall is exactly right, but it's like I think
one of I think one of the parts of this
that has gotten a little bit of play in the
sort of media over here has been the police response,
(19:35):
which has been terrible. Yeah, we talked about what the
cops have been.
Speaker 5 (19:39):
Doing, Okay, in Kenya protests Historically, protests have always been
extremely violent, Like during the Moi era, people used to
get beaten, alocked. Moy was also president. He was in
office for twenty four years, so he.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
Was a powerholder. I use those words, there's a powerholder.
He didn't want to go anywhere.
Speaker 5 (20:06):
He wanted to stay in power for as long as
he could and to counter anyone who would go against him.
People were tortured, people were disappeared, people were killed and
like dropped in forest. Many families couldn't find their members,
especially if they went out of protest or do anything.
That's why Wangaimata is story who's like one of the
(20:29):
biggest environment total champions the world has ever seen. Her
story was so unique because in the face of the
most brutal dictators countries, every thing, she showed up and
like she didn't just disagree but she bought back, and
she did she use the same tactics that people are
using now. She informed the very ignored part of the
(20:50):
population to get the information across that if they start
taking away your land and patting down your tree and
you won't be able to farm, I won't have anything.
This is this whole place is going to be at
their set in a couple of years. So everyone was
panicking because like, land is a very sensitive issue yea.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
And that's why the movement worked.
Speaker 5 (21:10):
So well because she was not speaking she was not
just speaking against authority that she was going to like
the people who who were going to be affected the most.
And during those protests, she was beaten up. Her hair
was like young to her head. It was very Yeah,
it was very graphic and very painful. Like he watched
these videos and they're like who does something like this?
(21:33):
And now it's being replicated. Sorry, it was replicated again
like throughout his presidency, But throughout the years, a lot
of civil rights movements and all the community based organizations
like came together and they will still protest about stuff,
but the issue it had moved on from like large
(21:54):
protests to even kmalla protests being like they would send
the police to bitter people who are speaking up about
any issue. And usually, because like you're in smaller communities,
there's no way to track. So if someone dies in
Kibera and it's a slam area and it's mostly disenfranchised,
(22:16):
the community organizations they are no they try and find
justice for the family, but because our police are mostly
held you can't tell them to account because they work
for the state, it's very hard to get any form
of justice. But this time was it last year when
people were protesting about the cost of living and I
(22:38):
think it was just shortly before the finance built twenty
twenty three past people were protesting, People were out and
they were angry about everything, and people were beaten up.
Someone lost their two year old child because the child
was beaten by the police.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (22:56):
Yeah, Like there's a woman who lost her son. Because
usually when you're at protests, sometimes the people who are
passing by, but because you're there and the police are there,
they end up treating.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
Even if you're not past year, you're not back to
the process.
Speaker 5 (23:12):
So that there's a woman who ended up losing her
son last year to the protest, and her adopted son too,
and then this this year, like a couple of weeks ago,
she died in a flood in my dad so yan
and then yes, thenas are like seeing their terrible nature
of like how state violence kIPS continuing. So this time
(23:33):
when the purchase are being organized, everyone is like, make
sure you're peaceful, don't carry in stones because like stones
like stones, you don't even pick up yours and like
throw it back and everything. And this time everyone is like,
just make sure you're very peaceful, only use your voice,
protect each other. Like a lot of the announcements around
(23:56):
the protests like make sure it's paceful so that they
don't have an exclu to say that you are out
on the streets doing something illegal. You don't attack shots,
you don't try and force yourself into anyone's premises.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
And what happened that was very.
Speaker 5 (24:10):
Beautiful this year is like the establishments, like the one
I'm in right now was helped protect citizens who were protesting.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
So kids would be out of this. So they start
getting tears and like they.
Speaker 5 (24:20):
Would open the door, people would come in and they
would close the door until they go away. Yeah, so
you find establishments are working to not just protect people
but also to be part of showing like this is
our premises. It's not being looted, it's not being destroyed,
because destruction of property apparently is a bigger problem than
(24:43):
you losing your life. So most people felt they were
safe at the protest, and they also felt like they
were seen by other protesters. So it was largely peaceful,
very well coordinated. There's information on how to get medical
help or in case you're arrested, how to get as
(25:05):
bigal assistance. So every single element is like we're not
just going to band out of like going into the streets,
but making.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
Sure everyone returns home safely.
Speaker 5 (25:15):
A lot of the protests in the past where they
got a little violent because maybe some of the protesters
went road and obviously their politicians love to use bad
actors where they implant a bunch of people who go
and destroy business premises, and then it looks like the
protesters didn't come there to actually protest, they were there
for their.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
Own selfish reasons.
Speaker 5 (25:38):
So this time what happened is like a lot of
the protesters were given the right information on how to
steal peaceful.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
It's like these are the streets to use, these are the.
Speaker 5 (25:48):
Meeting points, These are the contact people for in case
you get injured. There is this medics in case you
get arrested. These are the lawyers in case your friend disappears.
Make sure they have a life location on so we
can track them and everything. So it was widely successful
because that kind of peaceful and well coordinated blue navigated
(26:13):
towards spaces that were if not before, like the safety
of everyone was a priority. And because our leaders can't
really find who started the protests because it's mostly like
a group who led the movement, they started abducting.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Who they feel like our community leaders.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Yeah, yeah, so I guess that that's something I wanted
to ask about, was like, has the police response actually
been any less bad this time that it has been
with other So this.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
Time on Thursday they shot.
Speaker 5 (26:44):
Yeah, they shot into a crowd and one of them
ended up shooting at twenty four year old and he
bled out he died. His name is Rex Massi. And
then another kid was also short. The name is Evans
Kiragu was also short, and I think they were trying
(27:06):
to get him help and everything, but he died yesterday,
I believe. And there's still other prochesters who are yet
to be found. And then yesterday morning there's a very
popular Twitter personality who was disappeared, like they kind of
appointed him here. But then Kenyons held a space online
(27:30):
for over six hours and they're like they were dragging
government officials and like, if you people don't return this
particular person, we will find you.
Speaker 4 (27:39):
It was very.
Speaker 5 (27:43):
Particularly funny because Kenyans, you would think this younger generation
people don't have concentration issues. No one is going to
listen to us three, but like everyone was like online
and they were paying attention to like every single speaker
just to keep the space longer, holding space for the
person who would be taken. And he was found his lawyers,
(28:05):
the lawyers, sorry, the lawyers in charge found him and
they went and like they went and got him and
he went back safe, but obviously you could see he
was visibly shaken.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
His creetur name is crazy and Aurobian. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (28:18):
And then now today they took one of the doctors
was organizing for a blad drive in like in a
certain up market area. They just picked him out and
like no one has been able to find him until now.
So people are still advocating to like get him back,
(28:39):
and a lot of big personalities are making phone calls.
Lawyers are showing up, like if you see this particular car,
if you if you sit in your location, timely informants
share the information. So everyone who's online is trying to
get the right information to make sure that that doctor
is brought back. And yeah, ironically that doctor is actually
(29:01):
unemployed because the the government is refusing to hire new
medical personnel because like it's too expensive. When you see
them like driving around the new cars and has like
very expensive shoes, and everyone is like, your shoes could
literally pay like three doctors salary.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
High higher the right thing.
Speaker 5 (29:26):
Yeah, but I can ends up pushing to make sure
everyone is safe and everyone who's lost, especially big Twitter
influencers and big media personalities and influencers are coming together
to make sure they use their platforms to help find
anyone who's not.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
Who's been disappeared or been abducted.
Speaker 6 (29:44):
Yeah, where do you think the difference of going from here?
Speaker 2 (29:59):
I know I should well, actually I think I think
I've lost track of what reading of the bill they're
at right now.
Speaker 4 (30:05):
Was I thought it was the third reading.
Speaker 5 (30:07):
Or it's a it's at the committee stage. So at
the committee stage they go through the every single class
and they try to justify where they should keep it
or whether they're going to disband it. But everyone is
just like, we don't want any of this because some
of the bill is if there's a there's a part
of the bill that I didn't mention where the Kenya
(30:29):
Revenue Authority is supposed to go through Kenyon's personal data
to see your dodge in taxes.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
And I'm like, that's ridiculous because a.
Speaker 5 (30:39):
Lot of people in Kenya are supported by a family member.
So you find you find if I have money, I'll
send it to my kids, and then my kids made
might body to their friends who's grabbed in trouble.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
So if it looks like I have money coming in, it's.
Speaker 5 (30:54):
Probably maybe because of like a family contribution, a personal contribution.
So they want to charge taxes on that, and it
actually makes no sense. So it looks like they're tracking
how much money you look like you have. Yeah, yeah,
it looks like they're checking how much money you look
like you have, and then they want to tax you
on that or like say you're evading taxes. And it's
(31:14):
scaring a lot of people because once that happens, it
feels like there's no safety in anything you have.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
So I guess so from from there, So is the
strategy right now based around sort of trying to get
these trying to get the committees to just like to
have this bill sort of die there or.
Speaker 5 (31:35):
A lot of us are trying to make sure the
bill doesn't go any further than it is, and everyone
is tracking their emp. So what happened even before the
protest people started sharing their MP's numbers. Every single person
would pind like a member of parliament's numbers. Then we're like,
if you if this is your relative, please give it
to us. If it is your side, cheek or whatever
(32:00):
whatever where you.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Relate to this person.
Speaker 5 (32:03):
Because it's government officials, their numbers should be public anyway,
citizens should be able to reach them. Yeah, And because
they wanted to hide behind their big, big cause and
big houses, we were like, Okay, we're going to find
you where you're at, and we're going to text you
and we're going to tell you to vote. And most
of the implies were very dismissing. They were like the
(32:27):
party that i'm that's back in me is the one
that got me into office. It's like, no, people voted
for you, you should represent their views. So a lot
of canyons held the lightry like I don't care what
your boss is telling you or what party this is,
you have.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
To vote with us. So a lot of.
Speaker 5 (32:46):
MPs who were shamed online some of them had to
but like they changed their votes.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
Incredible, Yes, yeah we should.
Speaker 5 (33:00):
It is more often, So that's really that really gave
hope to a lot of canyons who are feeling like
maybe their work isn't amounting too much. But we lost,
we lost that one batty. A lot of us ended
up using the battle to the second reading because many
of the EMPs. So there's this fund called the cdf
(33:20):
IDIF fund. It's the constituency the Constituency Development Fund that
emplase kind of use it like their personal bank account.
So members of parliament, Yeah, members of Parliament will get
the CDIF fund and then they'll use it to go
and like so it's supposed to actually take care of
like bursaries or any county emergencies directly affecting constituents. But
(33:43):
what EMP is doing is that like they wield it
as a personal bank account. So it's like you have
to do a lot of us kissing and a lot
of performative nonsense for you to even get some of
the money, and a lot of people don't actually end
up getting the money. So what the budget makers did.
(34:06):
They decided to talk up the CDF fund so that
more mpries have more money. And usually they just pocket
that money. So they were like, Okay, I feel like
my budgeted corruption has hit the account.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
I don't need to do the right thing.
Speaker 4 (34:21):
Yeah, so there's just just literally a bribe exactly.
Speaker 5 (34:26):
It's like the best way is like and they're like, no,
I'll have more money to take care of the constituency.
It's like, no, you steal this money anyway. You guys
have any You're not going to do a conscience today
just because you have more money.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
So most of all are trying to get the parts
of the budget we've seen it the like put into
efforts that go directly to education and healthcare, even it's
even if it's directly to the school instead of the individual. Yeah,
so that that will help cut down on that kind
of corruption that a lot of empies run away.
Speaker 5 (35:00):
And I think that's scaring some of them. And we're hoping,
we're hoping to get more people to be to push
their members of parliament or any nominated representatives to recognize
that all these items that they're voting for it's not
(35:22):
just going to affect us, but will affect them and
the money that they're hoping to steal. So if you're
going to steal progress, you don't get any of.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
The money here.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Incredible. Yeah, is there is there anything else you want
to add before you wrap up?
Speaker 5 (35:40):
Yeah, I'll say usually when a lot of stories and
like the African continent are covered, it's usually like Africans
vote for bad leaders, and well that is true.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
Most of the times, people don't feel like they have
an option.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
Yeah, And like you know, if you you listeners statistically
are probably either an America or a brain. So like
you you you know exactly what that's like.
Speaker 7 (36:08):
You're like someone who just you have Trump and he's
like a functure now right now? So yeah, because the
little so On TikTok, something happened I think.
Speaker 5 (36:21):
Yesterday or something where people were like, how the Kenyans
vote for this person? He's such a very dark criminal
past and everyone was like, have you guys seen yourselves?
Speaker 3 (36:36):
You come there?
Speaker 5 (36:38):
There are no how everyone makes very foolish mistakes, and
all of us look like we don't know what to
do to make sure people like that don't ascend into power,
because like group things sometimes gets us to like very
dangerous places. It happens everywhere. No one is any less affected.
If someone who you hope to lose gains power, like you,
(37:02):
you're all in deep trouble. Like no one is on
a higher pedestal than the other. All of you can
actually lose a lot. And one of the things that
we are trying to remind each other's we're trying not
to get to this space. So what canons are trying
to pocuse like a direct manifesto where any person who's
running has to have like a close in their manifesto
(37:24):
that is going to even be turned into like a
policy and law where if you steal any money or
you co found doing anything corrupt, you have to like
remove yourself from office immediately, like there's no bargaining to
do whatsoever, Like you have to leave office immediately.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
Then we're going to seize all your property like anything.
Speaker 5 (37:48):
Yes, Like if you're going to get into power, make
sure the salary you're getting is in now. If you
have any ambitions, let them die now, like do everything
before you get into And I think that's so encouraging
to see because everyone is not just looking at them
now and like all these bad taxes and the bad
leadership that we have, but also looking to the future
(38:11):
of like how do we make sure we don't get
here again? So that's really encouraging to see everyone is
making sure that they hold people to account across the board,
like if your protesters, make sure you're safe, make sure
you know this information. But also for the future, this
is what we want. So it's not just like we're
moving bad taxes, but if we're going to pay taxes,
(38:33):
are they going to be used? And how are we
going to make sure that the future of the country
is being protected by collective interest and not just like
individual worship, which has been a very very big problem
in Kenyan culture because like over here musicians are barely celebrities,
(38:54):
but a politician would work in here and like people
would like lose arms and legs just see hi.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
So we're trying to make sure we fix that too.
Speaker 5 (39:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Yeah, So I guess if people listening to just want
to try to help support the protests, are there are
there stuff that other things they can do and places
they can go to find more information.
Speaker 5 (39:15):
And because a lot of it is group organized, I
have to find the the information.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
I could send it to you. Ye, put it.
Speaker 7 (39:28):
Yes, I don't know if at the top of my head,
because I thinking.
Speaker 5 (39:34):
Like most people would like to do individual because a
lot of we have a lot of mobile money transfer
which are usually direct to the person, so that it
doesn't work with various channels and then.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
People end up misappropriating or stealing.
Speaker 5 (39:49):
So if community leeds, so I'll have to find the
information and then sharing.
Speaker 3 (39:54):
Cool.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
Yeah, and okay, if people want to find you on
the internet, where can they do that?
Speaker 5 (39:59):
So on Instagram and tip talk, it's fake work with
just Tin like at people with just Tin like the
full handle. On Twitter it's at official f w w J,
So it's official f w w J, which is just
(40:20):
people with Justine official people.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
For Yeah, we'll get we'll get that in the description too.
Speaker 7 (40:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (40:27):
Yeah, I do have my personal effought, but I don't
know if I want to give that.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
Yeah, I know I can still give it.
Speaker 5 (40:36):
It's at justin wonder j U S T I N
E W A N D A.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
Yeah cool, Yeah, Justine, Thank you so much. Thank you
so much for coming on the show talking about this
has been great.
Speaker 3 (40:48):
Thank you so much for having me in, letting me
like just run my mother out work.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Yeah, and good, good, good luck to you all. Hope
you hope you stop them and bring them all down.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
I really hope we do. If we don't, it's gonna
be so sad. Yeah, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Yeah of course, and yeah, let's spinnak it off here
and you too can go make your politicians' lives miserable.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated
monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.
All Zone Media.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Welcome to take it up and here a show that
today is very urgently about things falling apart in Kenya
and how to put them back together again. I'm your host,
Miya Wong. What you're about to hear is an interview
about the Kenyan protests that was recorded on Sunday, July
twenty third. At time of recording, it is now Tuesday,
the twenty fifth, and in that two day span, the
situation and Kenya has gotten significantly worse. Kenyan police are
(00:29):
firing live ammo into crowds of protesters. They've killed at
least five people today. That numbers expected to rise as
more protesters die in hospitals. The government has deployed the
army and shut down much of the internet in an
attempt to stop news from getting out. On Kenyan TV,
political leaders called the protesters criminals and a threat to
national security. Meanwhile, protesters made good on their slogan occupied
(00:52):
Parliament by storming and then partially burning down the Parliament building.
As politicians continue to meet their demands with bullets. What
we've seen today is terrifying cop shooting live ammo into churches,
Cops opening fire on people waiting for medical care. Meanwhile,
to the fury of the protesters, Kenyan troops arrived today
in Haiti to begin a US backed occupation of the country.
(01:12):
We spent this interview largely discussing the local Kenyan political leads,
but this is also an international crisis. Much of the
impetus for the brutal tax increases on basic goods came
from an International Monetary Fund bailout deal that required Kenya
to increase its taxes to twenty five percent of the
country's GDP. Thus, Kenyans are being robbed twice, once by
(01:32):
the Kenyan political masters of the cops shooting them in
the streets, and again by the IMF and their neolibal
wealth extraction program. As the struggle continues. Let us now
turn to our interview into a more optimistic time in
the movement to get a real understanding of what the
protests are about. Welcome to it could happen here a
podcast where the here is currently Kenya. Yeah, I'm your host,
(01:55):
Miya Wong, and we are going to talk about a
bunch of protests and a bunch of very very very
interesting sort of political developments in Kenya that I think
have gotten very distressingly little coverage in in the sort
of like Anglophone maation media. And with me to talk
about that is Justine Wanda is a stand up comedian,
a political satirist, and a writer who's created Fake Book
(02:18):
with Justine about well basically all the stuff that we're
going to be talking about today are the are the
things you will see on this show. Justine, Welcome to
the show.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Thank you so much for having me me. How are
you doing?
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Ah? You know, this is this This is one of
those morning recordings. So I'm a little bit unhinged, but
it's okay, We're I'm really excited to talk to you.
So yeah, yeah, I'm really excited to talk to you.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
And I yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
So I think I think the place to start here
is can you talk about so? So these protests are
about an upcoming finance bill, So let's talk about what
what actually is this bill and what seeing it?
Speaker 5 (03:01):
Okay, So for me to be able to talk about
the finance bill, I have to talk about the finance
bill that was past last year. So in twoy twenty three,
we had a financi will that was passed. Most of
the financial last year had something called the Housing levy,
which basically requires every single Kenyon who's employed to remove
(03:26):
a little bit of their salary to go directly to
pay for an account where they'll pull the money to build.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Kenyon's affordable houses.
Speaker 5 (03:36):
And in Kenya, housing is not especially a crisis in
rural areas because most people have their own personal films.
The issue is usually the urban centers where housing is
actually very expensive and it's very poorly infrastructured, like there's
no water, sometimes there's no electricity in certain parts, like
people have done a lot of illegal collection connections. So
(04:01):
last year the bill was kind of rummed through and
there was so much public participation.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Actually in the beginning that was like.
Speaker 5 (04:08):
A lot of people got angry about the bill forcing
people to take money out of their pockets to contribute
to a fund that didn't seem like they had a plan.
And a lot of politicians were actually on TV and
everyone was watching every interview and they're like, you don't
make any sense, we don't understand. Yeah, it's like what
is that money for? We're not sure, but we know
(04:31):
we're to building houses. How are you going to manage
the money? Who's going to be in charge of the
money how is this? Like every single aspect was met
by like some form of deflection or like a lie,
just like a lot of there wasn't any accountability in
the in what they were telling us. And even the
person who was in charge was like on TV, he
(04:53):
was sweating.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
He looked like he was lying though who time.
Speaker 5 (04:57):
So everyone was like, if this is how you're speaking
about it when we aren't giving out money, what will
happen after the fact. But the bill sailed through, and
one of the elements that was in that field that
wasn't even in the news was that avocado farmers in
the country will start with charging us, will be charged
(05:18):
a certain amount of money on their produce and they
have to produce receipts on this every single day.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
What like if yes, if you sell like.
Speaker 5 (05:27):
An avocado, one avocado or of avocadoes, you have to
do a breakdown of like your sales and like provide
recists to the government and then like you're charged for it.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Oh my god, yes, And the MPs this.
Speaker 5 (05:43):
Like earlier this year, were like when the bill usually
like sometimes it takes a while for the closest to
come into effect.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
It takes like maybe a.
Speaker 5 (05:52):
Couple of months, So the the amount the farmers were
supposed to get charged was supposed to go live on
sorry in February or something. So in February, farmers are
getting attacked by like the Kenya Revenue Authority. They're being
told you need to provide these receipts and everything, and
everyone is like, I don't understand because we weren't informed.
(06:12):
And then the politicians who did not read the bill
but past it were like, oh, we didn't read the document.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
It was too big.
Speaker 5 (06:20):
What yes, exactly, So like that kind of information was
what that was what was on the news just before
they introduced now the financial twenty four So it's like,
we know you didn't read the one from last year.
You passed a bunch of bills that you didn't understand
the impact of it in the long term, so why
(06:43):
should you Why should Kenyans trust you with this new one?
And then they were like, no, we have the best
economic interests that had And then everyone was like, but
the bill you passed last year to increase revenue didn't work,
So if it didn't work, what makes you having a
bunch of new taxes they're going to work? And they
couldn't answer that and now this finance built enter wants
(07:07):
to introduce much of your call tax where if you
own a car, you will pay like a certain amount
like I think two percent that's of the voliation of
your car, and you paid to your insurance company every
single year.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Wait to insurance?
Speaker 4 (07:27):
What what?
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Why?
Speaker 4 (07:29):
Wait? Hold on? So why why is the tax?
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Why is this being paid to the insurance company?
Speaker 5 (07:36):
Because that's that's how people are asking. It's like, we
understand because insurance and Kenya is mostly run by private
entities know exactly what they're doing, so it's more like
a way to privates and get money into peoples so
we can't see and then end up being stolen and
there will be no accountability. But they say it's easier
(07:56):
because the insurance company is already handled this kind of stuff.
So on top of your insurance, on top of the
insurance you pay for your car, you pay the motor
vehicle tax as part of that. And I'm like, that's ridiculous.
We don't trust our money on any given day. Why
would you think we would just to suddenly with a
(08:17):
bunch of money being branded by a private from somewhere
Because they're not going to show us their books.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Yes, it seems like part of this too, is just
that the sort of tax infrastructure isn't very like, the
tax collection infrastructure isn't very good, because you would think
that that wouldn't be that hard for the government to
just collect, but instead we have like a like an
Ottoman style tax farming situation.
Speaker 5 (08:44):
So I love it you say that, because like that's
how that's exactly how it feels like everything is run.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
It's very.
Speaker 5 (08:52):
Yeah, as much as people in the room, we can't
make the wrong decision, but you've made the wrong decision
again and again and again, and now we're like, we
want to see the approach. We want to understand how
this is going to work in the face of unemployment,
in the face of like the country has not been
in good economic trajectory for a while now, and that
those economic shocks can be felt. A lot of people
(09:16):
are closing down their businesses, a lot of people are downsizing,
which means it's less people employed. Even the beauty industry,
which is mostly like run on inputs because they're charging
so much input duty. The beauty industry can't even stand
on its own. So people are not just buying less makeup.
It's like people who are those stores and any of
(09:37):
those kinds of businesses can't even have the like their
person who comes to get their job days.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
It becomes a bit of a problem.
Speaker 5 (09:44):
So everyone is like, if you're going to charge us more,
you have to have an infrastructure.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
That works for us.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (09:51):
Another tax that they're adding on the finance bill is
the input duty fee to like sanitary towers, wheelchair higher,
like because like Kenya doesn't manufacture a lot of stuff.
So you find like our like the pad manufacturing industry
in Kenya, like sanitary towers, only two percent are manufactured here,
(10:13):
like a big chunk comes from outside, and they want
to increase their input duty on that. So that means
the pads in the market are going to be even
more expensive.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Yeah, and and that's something that like that that's not
that's not a like that's that's that's that's not a
luxury good. You just need that.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (10:33):
So everyone was like, Okay, I guess that we'll just
have to stop having periods. Is like that that's what
you're saying, Like we're gonna have to magically, Yeah, we're
gonna have to figure out magically with nature to just
stop having periods because you guys want to tax us
in this particular way, and it's it's not just like
(10:54):
the small things, because like the problem with the Kenyon's.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Piece, especially sensitive issues. So our.
Speaker 5 (11:04):
Our third president, his name was Mike Baki, was the first,
one of the first presidents in the world to remove
v ty on sanitary towers. Like he was seen as
like someone who's setting an example for so many people.
And then the fact that this is happening when this
(11:26):
country was seen as like a chin setter to like
not just African countries, but other countries around the world
when it comes to like very important goods, it was
felt like we were going backwards and not in a way.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
It's not like we didn't have an example to follow.
Speaker 5 (11:43):
We actually did have a set president on like how
an economy is supposed to work.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
So everyone who's grown up in this particular environment.
Speaker 5 (11:51):
Where they felt safe and protected by the government and
like the government taking they live on very important issues
was like, you can't say building Kenya, buying Kenya is
a top priority for you when even electricity costs are expensive. Yeah,
because even this will adds like a fuel levy tax
it it's going up by seven shillings, which is way
(12:15):
too expensive. So you pay for your fuel, but like
most of the charges on the fuel is just their
levies and taxes, and they're adding a little bit more year.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
And it seems like from the way that these are
being structured that you know, I mean, one of the
things with direct like I guess we call them sales
taxes here, is that they're incredibly regressive. The people who
get affected the most by it are the people who
you don't have that much money versus something like doing
you know, versus doing like an income tax, and like
(12:48):
the people who are the highest owners. This is the
burden of this falls entirely on people who are poor
and can't afford it.
Speaker 5 (12:55):
Yes, that's I think it's very scary to think a
lot of our poll titians because they get paid with
tax payer money, and what they did when during when
they were writing, when they were contributing to the budget,
they were like, we want, we want this and this,
want to be added for this and this thing.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
But the problem is, like when you look.
Speaker 5 (13:14):
Deep down what they're looking for, they don't want to
pay taxes off of their salaries. They want to find
a way for taxpayers to pay for part of the
taxes that are being added so that they.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
Don't have to lose money.
Speaker 5 (13:26):
And every yeah, everyone is like, we know you're budgeting
for corruption. We can see you, we can see still,
we can see you still, and we don't want to
be part of that. And now to them, it was like,
we're being aggressive because we want we want them to
be held accountable for their very punitive for the punitive
measures that they're sending to like regular opinions. As you said,
(13:49):
a lot of sales taxes affect every day before and
we don't know how else to stop it. And I
think that's why the protesters. So they're catching fire. Everyone
wants to be out in the street.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Yeah, and we are going to we are going to
come back and talk about the protests in a second,
but first I here, here are some products and services
that are I don't know, probably also being taxed.
Speaker 4 (14:14):
But all right, and we are back. Yeah, So okay.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
I think I think people should should have like a
decent understanding of the fact that these taxes are these
are taxes on basic commodities that people need. And that's
one of the easiest ways to start a protest movement
is to suddenly make it too expensive to live. So
let's talk about who, Yeah, how how these protests sort
(14:51):
of started and how they've been being organized.
Speaker 5 (14:54):
My issues that we can't really say how the protests started,
but there was a lot of anger by Kenyons online
because Kenyons are chronically online, like especially the younger generation,
a lot of people have cell phones, a lot of
people are not tuned into the news really, but the
information sharing happens where like when a clip from the
news is cut put on tiptop, people's see it like
(15:17):
this is happening, so so could get angry and then
they shared. So what happened with the the finance book.
People would cut very little clips from the news and
then someone would help put it in context. So that's
where my channel comes in, where I'm not just using
the news clips and provide evidence like I've go through
the finance built and then even consult with people who
(15:39):
are in like like ask lawyers on Twitter, like people
who have resources and understand the law or like what
that would mean for everyday canyons. I would literally reach
out and it got to a point where I am
now in communication with the right channels, like you can
directly ask how this would impact people, like if they
(15:59):
tax bread more or like refuse to make it easier
for suppliers to get items for the supply chain. How
does this affect everyday people? So that helps bridge the
graph of information and now with more people critically not
just looking at the news but finding the evidence for themselves.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Really have helped us get to a point where when
you share, we are protesting about this issue. This is
where we're going, this is what's happening, this this will
happen in a certain town. So like Nairobi had its
own occupy parliament reject the financial demonstration, it happened in
Mombasa too, it happened in neary Elder at all these
(16:41):
smaller towns where people were living. But they are people
from rural areas, they won't really care. And I'm like,
you don't know that. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (16:51):
And also something that's really magical that's happened. A lot
of Canons were like, Okay, maybe there there are a
lot of Kenyons who live in rural areas who don't
have media that doesn't cater to traditional listeners, like people
who only speak certain languages so vernacular stations. So people
started using TikTok to do direct translation. It's like this
(17:14):
is the script, Yes, this is the script for the
for the financi buildings. Are the taxes being added. This
is the tax on bread, This is the tax on
your on your vehicle. This is the tax that will
happen on like period and sanitary paths and diapers and everything.
So someone does the whole we've done in their vernacular
language and they share it on their family WhatsApp groups
called penance love wksapp.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
That's why if.
Speaker 5 (17:35):
You're if you want to do anything proper Ganda like,
you can easily both on WhatsApp. Before messages are crazy.
So because like WhatsApp is mostly co opted by antis
and moms and people who love to share. Please go
to chat share share these to seven friends. People took
that Monday to where they send it to their moms
(17:56):
and then have it shared like seven of their friends
who don't understand what the finance BILLI entails. And that
is really changing the landscape of like who gets to
interpret the bills, who gets to understand how.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
It influences them.
Speaker 5 (18:08):
And it's been very very effective, So people who are
passive are more and more understanding of like why everyone
is on the streets.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Yeah, it seems like it almost seems like there isn't
there's kind of a I don't know, it's like a
TikTok think tank that's been sort of doing this valuation
that has been spread through That's that's really cool.
Speaker 5 (18:30):
I'm just saying, it's absolutely lovely to see because like
tribalism has been a tool that's been wielded, especially during elections,
to make Kenyons look like they don't care about each
other and they can't go beyond their differences.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
And this time it's like, yeah, we do.
Speaker 5 (18:45):
Have language barriers, but we're not going to let that
affect us negatively. We're going to figure out our way
through the noise before they start co opting those spaces
and start saying, oh, gen z kids are lying or
millennials are just started getting money, so why would they
care about taxes? And so everyone is making sure that
those spaces are not corrupted.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Yeah, it seems like a really sort of incredible popular
education thing that's.
Speaker 4 (19:12):
Been empowering this.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Yeah, so I want to, I guess talk about I
mean one of the things that I think maybe kind
of breached the I don't know. Calling it like the
Great Firewall is exactly right, but it's like I think
one of I think one of the parts of this
that has gotten a little bit of play in the
sort of media over here has been the police response,
(19:35):
which has been terrible. Yeah, we talked about what the
cops have been.
Speaker 5 (19:39):
Doing, Okay, in Kenya protests Historically, protests have always been
extremely violent, Like during the Moi era, people used to
get beaten, alocked. Moy was also president. He was in
office for twenty four years, so he.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
Was a powerholder. I use those words, there's a powerholder.
He didn't want to go anywhere.
Speaker 5 (20:06):
He wanted to stay in power for as long as
he could and to counter anyone who would go against him.
People were tortured, people were disappeared, people were killed and
like dropped in forest. Many families couldn't find their members,
especially if they went out of protest or do anything.
That's why Wangaimata is story who's like one of the
(20:29):
biggest environment total champions the world has ever seen. Her
story was so unique because in the face of the
most brutal dictators countries, every thing, she showed up and
like she didn't just disagree but she bought back, and
she did she use the same tactics that people are
using now. She informed the very ignored part of the
(20:50):
population to get the information across that if they start
taking away your land and patting down your tree and
you won't be able to farm, I won't have anything.
This is this whole place is going to be at
their set in a couple of years. So everyone was
panicking because like, land is a very sensitive issue yea.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
And that's why the movement worked.
Speaker 5 (21:10):
So well because she was not speaking she was not
just speaking against authority that she was going to like
the people who who were going to be affected the most.
And during those protests, she was beaten up. Her hair
was like young to her head. It was very Yeah,
it was very graphic and very painful. Like he watched
these videos and they're like who does something like this?
(21:33):
And now it's being replicated. Sorry, it was replicated again
like throughout his presidency, But throughout the years, a lot
of civil rights movements and all the community based organizations
like came together and they will still protest about stuff,
but the issue it had moved on from like large
(21:54):
protests to even kmalla protests being like they would send
the police to bitter people who are speaking up about
any issue. And usually, because like you're in smaller communities,
there's no way to track. So if someone dies in
Kibera and it's a slam area and it's mostly disenfranchised,
(22:16):
the community organizations they are no they try and find
justice for the family, but because our police are mostly
held you can't tell them to account because they work
for the state, it's very hard to get any form
of justice. But this time was it last year when
people were protesting about the cost of living and I
(22:38):
think it was just shortly before the finance built twenty
twenty three past people were protesting, People were out and
they were angry about everything, and people were beaten up.
Someone lost their two year old child because the child
was beaten by the police.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (22:56):
Yeah, Like there's a woman who lost her son. Because
usually when you're at protests, sometimes the people who are
passing by, but because you're there and the police are there,
they end up treating.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
Even if you're not past year, you're not back to
the process.
Speaker 5 (23:12):
So that there's a woman who ended up losing her
son last year to the protest, and her adopted son too,
and then this this year, like a couple of weeks ago,
she died in a flood in my dad so yan
and then yes, thenas are like seeing their terrible nature
of like how state violence kIPS continuing. So this time
(23:33):
when the purchase are being organized, everyone is like, make
sure you're peaceful, don't carry in stones because like stones
like stones, you don't even pick up yours and like
throw it back and everything. And this time everyone is like,
just make sure you're very peaceful, only use your voice,
protect each other. Like a lot of the announcements around
(23:56):
the protests like make sure it's paceful so that they
don't have an exclu to say that you are out
on the streets doing something illegal. You don't attack shots,
you don't try and force yourself into anyone's premises.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
And what happened that was very.
Speaker 5 (24:10):
Beautiful this year is like the establishments, like the one
I'm in right now was helped protect citizens who were protesting.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
So kids would be out of this. So they start
getting tears and like they.
Speaker 5 (24:20):
Would open the door, people would come in and they
would close the door until they go away. Yeah, so
you find establishments are working to not just protect people
but also to be part of showing like this is
our premises. It's not being looted, it's not being destroyed,
because destruction of property apparently is a bigger problem than
(24:43):
you losing your life. So most people felt they were
safe at the protest, and they also felt like they
were seen by other protesters. So it was largely peaceful,
very well coordinated. There's information on how to get medical
help or in case you're arrested, how to get as
(25:05):
bigal assistance. So every single element is like we're not
just going to band out of like going into the streets,
but making.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
Sure everyone returns home safely.
Speaker 5 (25:15):
A lot of the protests in the past where they
got a little violent because maybe some of the protesters
went road and obviously their politicians love to use bad
actors where they implant a bunch of people who go
and destroy business premises, and then it looks like the
protesters didn't come there to actually protest, they were there
for their.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
Own selfish reasons.
Speaker 5 (25:38):
So this time what happened is like a lot of
the protesters were given the right information on how to
steal peaceful.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
It's like these are the streets to use, these are the.
Speaker 5 (25:48):
Meeting points, These are the contact people for in case
you get injured. There is this medics in case you
get arrested. These are the lawyers in case your friend disappears.
Make sure they have a life location on so we
can track them and everything. So it was widely successful
because that kind of peaceful and well coordinated blue navigated
(26:13):
towards spaces that were if not before, like the safety
of everyone was a priority. And because our leaders can't
really find who started the protests because it's mostly like
a group who led the movement, they started abducting.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Who they feel like our community leaders.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Yeah, yeah, so I guess that that's something I wanted
to ask about, was like, has the police response actually
been any less bad this time that it has been
with other So this.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
Time on Thursday they shot.
Speaker 5 (26:44):
Yeah, they shot into a crowd and one of them
ended up shooting at twenty four year old and he
bled out he died. His name is Rex Massi. And
then another kid was also short. The name is Evans
Kiragu was also short, and I think they were trying
(27:06):
to get him help and everything, but he died yesterday,
I believe. And there's still other prochesters who are yet
to be found. And then yesterday morning there's a very
popular Twitter personality who was disappeared, like they kind of
appointed him here. But then Kenyons held a space online
(27:30):
for over six hours and they're like they were dragging
government officials and like, if you people don't return this
particular person, we will find you.
Speaker 4 (27:39):
It was very.
Speaker 5 (27:43):
Particularly funny because Kenyans, you would think this younger generation
people don't have concentration issues. No one is going to
listen to us three, but like everyone was like online
and they were paying attention to like every single speaker
just to keep the space longer, holding space for the
person who would be taken. And he was found his lawyers,
(28:05):
the lawyers, sorry, the lawyers in charge found him and
they went and like they went and got him and
he went back safe, but obviously you could see he
was visibly shaken.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
His creetur name is crazy and Aurobian. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (28:18):
And then now today they took one of the doctors
was organizing for a blad drive in like in a
certain up market area. They just picked him out and
like no one has been able to find him until now.
So people are still advocating to like get him back,
(28:39):
and a lot of big personalities are making phone calls.
Lawyers are showing up, like if you see this particular car,
if you if you sit in your location, timely informants
share the information. So everyone who's online is trying to
get the right information to make sure that that doctor
is brought back. And yeah, ironically that doctor is actually
(29:01):
unemployed because the the government is refusing to hire new
medical personnel because like it's too expensive. When you see
them like driving around the new cars and has like
very expensive shoes, and everyone is like, your shoes could
literally pay like three doctors salary.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
High higher the right thing.
Speaker 5 (29:26):
Yeah, but I can ends up pushing to make sure
everyone is safe and everyone who's lost, especially big Twitter
influencers and big media personalities and influencers are coming together
to make sure they use their platforms to help find
anyone who's not.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
Who's been disappeared or been abducted.
Speaker 6 (29:44):
Yeah, where do you think the difference of going from here?
Speaker 2 (29:59):
I know I should well, actually I think I think
I've lost track of what reading of the bill they're
at right now.
Speaker 4 (30:05):
Was I thought it was the third reading.
Speaker 5 (30:07):
Or it's a it's at the committee stage. So at
the committee stage they go through the every single class
and they try to justify where they should keep it
or whether they're going to disband it. But everyone is
just like, we don't want any of this because some
of the bill is if there's a there's a part
of the bill that I didn't mention where the Kenya
(30:29):
Revenue Authority is supposed to go through Kenyon's personal data
to see your dodge in taxes.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
And I'm like, that's ridiculous because a.
Speaker 5 (30:39):
Lot of people in Kenya are supported by a family member.
So you find you find if I have money, I'll
send it to my kids, and then my kids made
might body to their friends who's grabbed in trouble.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
So if it looks like I have money coming in, it's.
Speaker 5 (30:54):
Probably maybe because of like a family contribution, a personal contribution.
So they want to charge taxes on that, and it
actually makes no sense. So it looks like they're tracking
how much money you look like you have. Yeah, yeah,
it looks like they're checking how much money you look
like you have, and then they want to tax you
on that or like say you're evading taxes. And it's
(31:14):
scaring a lot of people because once that happens, it
feels like there's no safety in anything you have.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
So I guess so from from there, So is the
strategy right now based around sort of trying to get
these trying to get the committees to just like to
have this bill sort of die there or.
Speaker 5 (31:35):
A lot of us are trying to make sure the
bill doesn't go any further than it is, and everyone
is tracking their emp. So what happened even before the
protest people started sharing their MP's numbers. Every single person
would pind like a member of parliament's numbers. Then we're like,
if you if this is your relative, please give it
to us. If it is your side, cheek or whatever
(32:00):
whatever where you.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Relate to this person.
Speaker 5 (32:03):
Because it's government officials, their numbers should be public anyway,
citizens should be able to reach them. Yeah, And because
they wanted to hide behind their big, big cause and
big houses, we were like, Okay, we're going to find
you where you're at, and we're going to text you
and we're going to tell you to vote. And most
of the implies were very dismissing. They were like the
(32:27):
party that i'm that's back in me is the one
that got me into office. It's like, no, people voted
for you, you should represent their views. So a lot
of canyons held the lightry like I don't care what
your boss is telling you or what party this is,
you have.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
To vote with us. So a lot of.
Speaker 5 (32:46):
MPs who were shamed online some of them had to
but like they changed their votes.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
Incredible, Yes, yeah we should.
Speaker 5 (33:00):
It is more often, So that's really that really gave
hope to a lot of canyons who are feeling like
maybe their work isn't amounting too much. But we lost,
we lost that one batty. A lot of us ended
up using the battle to the second reading because many
of the EMPs. So there's this fund called the cdf
(33:20):
IDIF fund. It's the constituency the Constituency Development Fund that
emplase kind of use it like their personal bank account.
So members of parliament, Yeah, members of Parliament will get
the CDIF fund and then they'll use it to go
and like so it's supposed to actually take care of
like bursaries or any county emergencies directly affecting constituents. But
(33:43):
what EMP is doing is that like they wield it
as a personal bank account. So it's like you have
to do a lot of us kissing and a lot
of performative nonsense for you to even get some of
the money, and a lot of people don't actually end
up getting the money. So what the budget makers did.
(34:06):
They decided to talk up the CDF fund so that
more mpries have more money. And usually they just pocket
that money. So they were like, Okay, I feel like
my budgeted corruption has hit the account.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
I don't need to do the right thing.
Speaker 4 (34:21):
Yeah, so there's just just literally a bribe exactly.
Speaker 5 (34:26):
It's like the best way is like and they're like, no,
I'll have more money to take care of the constituency.
It's like, no, you steal this money anyway. You guys
have any You're not going to do a conscience today
just because you have more money.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
So most of all are trying to get the parts
of the budget we've seen it the like put into
efforts that go directly to education and healthcare, even it's
even if it's directly to the school instead of the individual. Yeah,
so that that will help cut down on that kind
of corruption that a lot of empies run away.
Speaker 5 (35:00):
And I think that's scaring some of them. And we're hoping,
we're hoping to get more people to be to push
their members of parliament or any nominated representatives to recognize
that all these items that they're voting for it's not
(35:22):
just going to affect us, but will affect them and
the money that they're hoping to steal. So if you're
going to steal progress, you don't get any of.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
The money here.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Incredible. Yeah, is there is there anything else you want
to add before you wrap up?
Speaker 5 (35:40):
Yeah, I'll say usually when a lot of stories and
like the African continent are covered, it's usually like Africans
vote for bad leaders, and well that is true.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
Most of the times, people don't feel like they have
an option.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
Yeah, And like you know, if you you listeners statistically
are probably either an America or a brain. So like
you you you know exactly what that's like.
Speaker 7 (36:08):
You're like someone who just you have Trump and he's
like a functure now right now? So yeah, because the
little so On TikTok, something happened I think.
Speaker 5 (36:21):
Yesterday or something where people were like, how the Kenyans
vote for this person? He's such a very dark criminal
past and everyone was like, have you guys seen yourselves?
Speaker 3 (36:36):
You come there?
Speaker 5 (36:38):
There are no how everyone makes very foolish mistakes, and
all of us look like we don't know what to
do to make sure people like that don't ascend into power,
because like group things sometimes gets us to like very
dangerous places. It happens everywhere. No one is any less affected.
If someone who you hope to lose gains power, like you,
(37:02):
you're all in deep trouble. Like no one is on
a higher pedestal than the other. All of you can
actually lose a lot. And one of the things that
we are trying to remind each other's we're trying not
to get to this space. So what canons are trying
to pocuse like a direct manifesto where any person who's
running has to have like a close in their manifesto
(37:24):
that is going to even be turned into like a
policy and law where if you steal any money or
you co found doing anything corrupt, you have to like
remove yourself from office immediately, like there's no bargaining to
do whatsoever, Like you have to leave office immediately.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
Then we're going to seize all your property like anything.
Speaker 5 (37:48):
Yes, Like if you're going to get into power, make
sure the salary you're getting is in now. If you
have any ambitions, let them die now, like do everything
before you get into And I think that's so encouraging
to see because everyone is not just looking at them
now and like all these bad taxes and the bad
leadership that we have, but also looking to the future
(38:11):
of like how do we make sure we don't get
here again? So that's really encouraging to see everyone is
making sure that they hold people to account across the board,
like if your protesters, make sure you're safe, make sure
you know this information. But also for the future, this
is what we want. So it's not just like we're
moving bad taxes, but if we're going to pay taxes,
(38:33):
are they going to be used? And how are we
going to make sure that the future of the country
is being protected by collective interest and not just like
individual worship, which has been a very very big problem
in Kenyan culture because like over here musicians are barely celebrities,
(38:54):
but a politician would work in here and like people
would like lose arms and legs just see hi.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
So we're trying to make sure we fix that too.
Speaker 5 (39:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Yeah, So I guess if people listening to just want
to try to help support the protests, are there are
there stuff that other things they can do and places
they can go to find more information.
Speaker 5 (39:15):
And because a lot of it is group organized, I
have to find the the information.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
I could send it to you. Ye, put it.
Speaker 7 (39:28):
Yes, I don't know if at the top of my head,
because I thinking.
Speaker 5 (39:34):
Like most people would like to do individual because a
lot of we have a lot of mobile money transfer
which are usually direct to the person, so that it
doesn't work with various channels and then.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
People end up misappropriating or stealing.
Speaker 5 (39:49):
So if community leeds, so I'll have to find the
information and then sharing.
Speaker 3 (39:54):
Cool.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
Yeah, and okay, if people want to find you on
the internet, where can they do that?
Speaker 5 (39:59):
So on Instagram and tip talk, it's fake work with
just Tin like at people with just Tin like the
full handle. On Twitter it's at official f w w J,
So it's official f w w J, which is just
(40:20):
people with Justine official people.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
For Yeah, we'll get we'll get that in the description too.
Speaker 7 (40:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (40:27):
Yeah, I do have my personal effought, but I don't
know if I want to give that.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
Yeah, I know I can still give it.
Speaker 5 (40:36):
It's at justin wonder j U S T I N
E W A N D A.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
Yeah cool, Yeah, Justine, Thank you so much. Thank you
so much for coming on the show talking about this
has been great.
Speaker 3 (40:48):
Thank you so much for having me in, letting me
like just run my mother out work.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Yeah, and good, good, good luck to you all. Hope
you hope you stop them and bring them all down.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
I really hope we do. If we don't, it's gonna
be so sad. Yeah, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Yeah of course, and yeah, let's spinnak it off here
and you too can go make your politicians' lives miserable.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated
monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.
It Could Happen Here News
Hosts And Creators
Robert Evans
Garrison Davis
James Stout
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