The Theory and Practice of Mutual Aid

James is joined by Ruth Kinna to discuss lifeboats, Kropotkin, and how we can all take part in mutual aid.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello everyone.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
It's just me James again today and I'm joined by
Ruth Kinner who's going to introduce herself shortly. And we're
discussing the concept of mutual aid and trying to sort
of cast that in a broader perspective. We talk a
lot about mutual aid, but we don't talk often about
what it is and what it means and how it's
been happening for a very long time. So Ruth, would
you like to introduce yourself and tell it tone that

(00:27):
you think it's relevant.

Speaker 3 (00:28):
Yeah, thank you, James.

Speaker 4 (00:29):
So my name is Ruth Kinner and i work at
Lufber University in the UK. Lufber's halfway between Nottingham and
Leicester in the East Midlands, and I'm a political theorist
and historian of ideas and I specialize in anarchist political thought.
And one of the people I've spent probably most time
looking at is Peter Cropotkin, and I've written about crop

(00:53):
Popkins's life and work. I'm also the editor of the
journal Anarchist Studies and I'm a member love for University
of the Anarchism Research Group I lovely.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
Yeah, that's a very very appropriate TV for this.

Speaker 2 (01:07):
And so can we start off by explaining because I
think people hear mutual aids sort of thrown about a lot,
and they know that it's people helping people, But what
would you define it as.

Speaker 1 (01:17):
What would be a useful definition for people to work of.

Speaker 4 (01:21):
So mutual aid is about people helping people. But I
think crop Popkin's argument, or you know, the way that
anarchists tend to think about mutual aid is that it's
a way of describing a relationship that can be encouraged
or discouraged according to the ways in which we organize

(01:42):
our social relationships. So mutual aid is a kind of
a response that we all have two people when it's
based on empathy, I guess. But it's something that we
can dampen, I suppose if we divorce ourselves from from
other people in our everyday lives, and particularly if we

(02:05):
tend to think that people's well being is the concern
of others rather than something which is a collective concern
of all of us.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
Yeah, I think that it's really excellent because it's very easy,
especially if you're living under sort of capitalism as it
exists today, to divorce yourself from your empathy or I
don't know responsibility is the right word, but to help
other people.

Speaker 1 (02:30):
Can we see that all the time? And I think
one area where we've seen that increasingly, certainly in the
two countries that we're sitting in, is with this like
just bizarre.

Speaker 2 (02:42):
I don't want to like pathologize it, but this just
deeply untasteful lack of empathy for refugees and people seeking asilum.
So I wanted to sort of start with the example
of the lifeboats in the UK, because I think they're great.
They pop up in a potkin, They've been around for
very long time, and they were, at least when I

(03:04):
was living in the UK, very charity institution that people supported.
And can you explain a little bit about how they
operate within that sort of mutual aid lens.

Speaker 3 (03:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (03:15):
So the Lifeboat Association was prompted by it's called an
Appeal to.

Speaker 3 (03:20):
The British Nation.

Speaker 4 (03:21):
It was published in eighteen twenty five by this guy
called William Hillary, and what Hillary wanted to do was
to support the foundation of a kind of national institution
that was going to help the victims of shipwrecks. And
he couched this project actually as quite a sort of
nationalistic terms I suppose were in patriotic terms, as sort
of part of the duty that British people would have

(03:43):
as one of the great seafaring nations. But what it
did was that it established the skeleton, if you like,
or it produced the sort of the foundation for the
Lifeboat Association, which is what we know now, which is
basically a voluntary organization run by volunteers, funded by the public,
with a remit to help anybody who is in distress

(04:03):
at sea. And I guess although it was sort of
the original idea of the Lifeboat Association came from this
sort of rather patriotic seafaring tradition. Hillary's idea was that
once you set up these organizations locally on the coast,
then actually they could be replicated. So he did have

(04:24):
a sort of internationalist perspective. He thought that these things
would be would mushroom, you know, across the globe, and
that we would have lifebreat associations everywhere. I'm not sure
if that's true, but certainly the Lifeboat Association is still
alive and well in the UK and it does exactly
what he wanted it to do. It looks after people
in distress at sea, without fear or favor, And it's

(04:47):
an example of mutual aid, I guess, because the people
who do this as volunteers are always putting themselves at
risk of peril or drowning, if you like, in order
to try and preserve the lives of others.

Speaker 2 (05:02):
Yeah, and it's a very at least from my memory
an institution. I've never really heard of anyone having negative
opinions about lifeboats until relatively recently. Like there was always
a lifeboat shaped thing that you could put money in,
like a donation box, and people just.

Speaker 1 (05:18):
Put money in it, and no one was like, oh,
I don't like the lifeboats. But recently, I suppose I've
come under fire from Britain. First for.

Speaker 2 (05:28):
I think they would phrase it as like encouraging people
to take the risk of traveling on small boats to
the United Kingdom to claim asylum. And can you characterize
I don't want you to characterize that attack because it's
relatively easy to characterize and it's you know, it doesn't
need much explaining.

Speaker 1 (05:47):
It's stupid.

Speaker 2 (05:47):
But the response to that, like, because I think it
has been quite it's easy for people in America to
see Britain as like a parochial island full of turfs.
But I think actually those people were still like most
people were pretty I guess, offended by the thought that
we'd allow people to drown rather than coming to our

(06:08):
country rate to claim asylum. Is that fair statement, Yeah,
I think so.

Speaker 4 (06:12):
I mean I think it was astonishing actually, or I
think it astonished people that the Lifeboat Association would be
politicized in the way that that was attempted by the right.

Speaker 3 (06:22):
The whole idea of.

Speaker 4 (06:23):
Of of of picking and choosing who one would rescue
at sea is simply preposterous. And as you say, I mean,
you know, the Lifeboat Association is widely supported. I mean
you tend to see offices of the Lifeboat Association at seasides,
so you know, this is a you know, the environment
is the holiday environment, it's the beach environment.

Speaker 3 (06:46):
It's part of being together.

Speaker 4 (06:49):
In a place which is enjoyed by people together, but
which also has its risks. And I mean, the first
time I think, you know, I came across the Lifeboat
Association was was actually through an appeal that was made
through a very popular and well known BBC television program
for children, which was called Blue Peter. And you know,

(07:11):
they funded a boat by asking kids to send in
milk bottle tops which could be melted down and turned
into anyuminium or whatever it was. And then you know,
this is how they funded a lifeboat. I mean, so
this you know, lifeboats aren't deeply routed I think, I mean,
the support for lifeboats are deeply rooted in people's psyche
in this country.

Speaker 3 (07:31):
And as I say, I think it was it was interesting.

Speaker 4 (07:36):
I guess that these calls from the rights that the
Lifeboat Association was somehow doing wrong in looking after migrant boats.
I mean, the small boats, really vulnerable dinghies that were
being sailed across the Channel. I just think the the
it gained absolutely no traction because it simply didn't speak

(07:57):
to people's public perceptor or deeply held perceptions if you like,
of the role of this association.

Speaker 2 (08:03):
Yeah, and there's been a really significant campaign to dehumanize
migrants in the UK, even perhaps to a degree greater
than we've seen in much of the US, although there's
complete bipartisan consensus that we should criminalize people coming here
in the United States too. And I spent people will
have heard that I spent like the last week driving

(08:25):
along the border seeing little children forced to be held
in the desert with no shade and no water like
it's it's also very brutal here. But I think it
says something that that's an institution that looks like that
was a line that wasn't crossable, I guess by the
right and this demonization of migrants. So we're having established

(08:45):
that this is a very cherished and important institution. Can
we talk about how mutual aid is something that because
I think it can seem understandably to people who have
been educated in the sort of neoliberal consent. Certainly it
is very common in schools and universities in both of
our countries. How this has in fact been like part

(09:07):
of human history for as long as as people have
been living in societies, and how it's a natural human
response to want to do this.

Speaker 3 (09:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (09:17):
So I mean, I think this takes us back to
kropotkins theorization, if you like, of mutual aid. So I
mean talking about sort of you know, our neoliberal culture.
I mean, Cropotkin's writing in a time where you have
a similar kind of individualism being stoked, and it's being

(09:38):
stoked particularly through a notion of social Darwinism. So the
idea that fitness is linked to or that the survival
is linked to individual fitness, and that competition is the
basic rule of life, and that therefore not only individuals,
but states as well should be, you know, pitting themselves

(10:02):
against each other in order to gain advantage and to
secure their own well being. And Kropotkin wanted to sort
of challenge this argument, and so the way he did
it was to say two things. One that biological fitness
is not linked to competition. It's actually linked to cooperation.
So individuals in any species cannot survive unless they have

(10:26):
support from others in their species. I mean, it's simply,
you know, that's that's how biology works. So whatever advantage
that individuals might might you know, acquire, actually their well
being depends on the cooperation or the collective practices that
they have with others. So he recognized that there was
into species competition, but he said basically, within species, survivalist

(10:48):
based in corporation. And from that he then said, you know,
one of the things that we can learn from this,
from this sort of re under or from this sort
of review of social Darwinism, is to think about how
we can encourage cooperation as a moral value, and he said,

(11:12):
you know, the way then we because that's a good thing.
Surely it's you know, if we're biologically attuned to cooperate,
then why don't we make this a principle of our lives.
And he said that the way that we should do
this is by configuring our social arrangements or our environments,
if you like, in ways that enabled us to see

(11:34):
that we were we were affected by the same sorts
of problems, that we had affinities with each other, that
there was a basic relationship that we had with each other,
not only with family members and friends, but with strangers too,
and that once we could understand that, then actually we
could sort of organize our social lives in ways that

(11:55):
were supportive of others when they were in positions of
need or when they're in situation of need.

Speaker 2 (12:01):
Yeah, So how would one go about doing that because
it can seem look where I live, thousands of people
live on the street, right and I can watch people
every day walk past people who just need a little
bit of help and not give it to them, and
it can be very disheartening. And so how do we
begin to organize in a way that recognizes our sort

(12:21):
of mutual dependence.

Speaker 4 (12:24):
So I mean, part of the arguments, I think is
that people will fill the gaps when they see that
others are in need. And that's exactly what the Lifeboat
Association does, and that's exactly what happened during the pandemic
for example. So you know, not surprisingly, one of the
things that happened in the first weeks of the pandemic

(12:44):
was the mushrooming of groups that call themselves mutual aid societies,
mutual aid associations, and they were networked. I mean, somebody
set up a website so that you know, people could
see exactly where these groups were. They were networked in
the UK. I think there were some relationships that were
even transatlantic. Part of the argument is that you don't
have to plan this, and in fact, mutual aid is
an unplanned is best thought of as an unplanned response.

(13:07):
But I guess the other thing is, or the question
that mutual aid begs is that, you know, if people
get together in times to fill the gaps, if you
like to provide support for people who are in need,
then how do they sustain those organizations over periods of
time without suffering burnout and all the rest of it?

Speaker 3 (13:28):
And I think that really then depends on.

Speaker 4 (13:32):
You know, sort of establishing I guess, I mean, you know,
that's again why we should take some heart. I think
from the Lifeboat Association, it's been going a long time.
It is possible to do these things, but it's difficult,
and it does require that you learn how to cooperate
with people who you might not otherwise work with, you
might not otherwise think you have anything in common with,

(13:54):
but where you find that common ground in order to
undertake practical activities in collaboration with each other.

Speaker 1 (14:02):
Yeah, I think that's very question. I'm always like.

Speaker 2 (14:05):
In twenty eighteen, I don't know if you were familiar
with it's been in the southern border of the United States.
We had a large group of migrants coming here from
Central America who became like a sort of talking point
in the midterms through no fault of their own right,
and they were held at the US border and then
tear gas from the sort of Tommy Hilfiger gist out
store in San Diego. And I was really impressed with,

(14:27):
Like I was there trying to help with my friends
and sort of trying to do anarchist things, but also
there were people who were older ladies from churches and
people from mosques and people from synagogues, and very very
much willing to work together, and you know, like you know,
we'd go to Costco together and spend thousands of thousands
on water and nappies for babies and such. But I

(14:49):
think getting past that initial sort of I'm not a
person who worked for people who go to church too,
like what this person wants to help and so do
I was what allowed that to happen? Can you perhaps

(15:10):
think of other examples that people I'm interested in things
like the lifeboats, which people might not see through the
lens of mutual aid because there's such established institutions that
they there's an assumption. I think a lot of people
probably think that there's some kind of state involvement with
the lifeboats, right, and the same with lots of sort
of the societies that exist to prevent cruelty to animals

(15:31):
and children and that kind of thing. Those aren't state
funded either in the UK. Can you think of other
examples of mutual aid that people might have sort of
not realized are entirely driven by society and not the state.

Speaker 4 (15:43):
Well, I suppose I mean the best or one of
the best examples recently in the US context is the
establishment of the Common Ground Collective after Hurricane Katrina. So
the aid that first went into the people who were
stricken by Katrina was not provided by the state. In fact,
you know, that came a lot later, but it was
provided by people who, you know, by by groups of

(16:06):
people who who thought that they, you know, they could
offer medical support or set up systems of you or help.

Speaker 3 (16:15):
Set up systems of of of.

Speaker 4 (16:17):
Basic supply and rescue, and and and that's exactly what happened,
and the Common Ground Collective was established as a result
of it. I mean, you find this sort of thing,
I mean, I mean, it's it's fairly usual in times
of you know, sudden emergency and crisis that actually the
people who who do the hands on work of actually

(16:39):
taking people off off you know, the how the roofs
of flooded houses and all the rest of it.

Speaker 3 (16:45):
These are local people. Typically, they're they're not the agencies
who often you know, take a lot of time to
get there. I mean.

Speaker 4 (16:53):
The other examples, I think in the American context, again
which are often rooted around church groups, but certainly a
lot of black people's organizations which you know, who couldn't
you know, where they couldn't access support services, set up
mutual aid societies because that was the if you like,

(17:14):
the only alternative that they would have in order to
provide you know, sort of clubs for their kids and
breakfast clubs and any kind of welfare at all. That
that was the that was the root of it. The
other example, I mean Kropotkin looks at I mean these
are nineteenth cent nineteenth century example which is sort of
something that's later absorbed by the state. Are the uh

(17:39):
the the the the insurance arrangements that were that were
made by miners uh to to look after those who
were injured down the mines and their families in the
event of their death. So you know, they were setting
up their own systems of contribution to ensure sure that

(18:00):
those families would be provided for if the worst came
to the worst. And you know, eventually this gets taken
up by the station, it's sold back to you as
national insurance. But these systems are you know, they're established
essentially by local people for their own benefits.

Speaker 2 (18:15):
Yeah, perhaps we ought to talk about that because there's
a lot of these spontaneous societal things, especially in the
UK that are corupted by the state and then sold
back to us and then gradually stripped away of the
very essence of what they're supposed to be. You're at
the National Health Service being another example. Can you talk
about the danger of that kind of state maybe dangers

(18:37):
who are on word, But there can be a state
capture of mutual aid efforts, which can sometimes one might argue,
always like strip them of the essence of what they are.

Speaker 1 (18:48):
Is that fair to say?

Speaker 4 (18:50):
Well, it certainly changes. I mean, so state welfare changes
the relationships that people have to those institutions, and and
so in one sense it it alleviates the burden of
of of running those institutions.

Speaker 3 (19:07):
But in the on the.

Speaker 4 (19:08):
Other hand, it it does two things. I think one
is that it tends to encourage the idea that looking
after each other is somebody else's responsibility. So actually it diminishes,
or it disincentivizes the sort of the.

Speaker 3 (19:24):
That that.

Speaker 4 (19:27):
Stimulus to help each other directly. So mutual aid is
a kind of direct action, if you like. Whereas you know,
once we give these these processes over to the state,
then actually we start to see people in different in
different ways. So we do start to get the language
of scrounging or of you know, idleness, deserving, undeserving poor.

(19:51):
All of those things come from the idea that we're
paying into an institution and not necessarily being guaranteed that
we're getting value money. So we start to see the
institution slightly differently. And I think the other thing is
that the I mean, the worry I guess of of
that sort of co optation is that it's it conceals

(20:15):
the other things that that the state does. So welfare
is the last thing, if you like, that that states
assume as a responsibility, and it and it provides a gloss,
if you like, on the law and order function that
the state serves and and somehow sort of makes the

(20:35):
state look a bit friendlier than.

Speaker 3 (20:38):
Perhaps we should think it is.

Speaker 4 (20:40):
And I mean this, you know, when the I suppose that,
I mean, the term that was used in the in
the British context, in the in the immediate post war
period was not the welfare state. It was the warfare state.
Because the idea was that the introduction of welfare, which
starts really after the after the Second World War, concealed
the violence that the state was otherwise perpetuating elsewhere.

Speaker 2 (21:02):
Yeah, I think that's very It's something we should consider
very strongly when we're looking at these things, right. I
think it also strips the like the person to person
aspect of mutual aid from mutual aid like the certainly
the most common sort of mutual A responses I've been
part of to health crises and then to along the border.

(21:24):
And part of what makes that very meaningful is people saying, like,
you know, this is a this is a line between
two states, but it's not a line between two people
or two communities, right, And you are welcome because I
am of this community and I want you to come here,
which you do not get when you know there's a
man in green combat pants throwing MRIs from the back

(21:45):
of a pickup truck, like that doesn't.

Speaker 4 (21:47):
That's right, But equally I suppose, I mean that's the
other thing. I mean, that's that's kind of what I
was trying to get at.

Speaker 3 (21:52):
That.

Speaker 4 (21:53):
You know, once you have once you have state welfare,
you have concepts of access through citizenship, and that really
informed is the idea that there's a there's a right
of access and then there's a there's an exclusion that
necessarily follows from that, and so you know, the relationship
becomes much more transactional rather than which is the way

(22:15):
that the mutual aid is couched in in.

Speaker 3 (22:17):
The anarchist lexicon.

Speaker 4 (22:20):
You know, it's it's it's it's driven by by altruism
and and and giving without without the expectation of reward.

Speaker 2 (22:30):
Yes, yeah, I think that's very important. It's it doesn't
imply a power or an expectation of sort of reciprocity.

Speaker 1 (22:36):
It's it.

Speaker 2 (22:39):
I forget exactly where I read this. Terrible at these things,
but like I guess you don't do it in a
selfish sense, but it benefits you as well as a person.
You are giving to look in because those people are
part of your community.

Speaker 1 (22:53):
Is that fair?

Speaker 2 (22:53):
And like you shouldn't be complete if people are suffering,
like right next to you.

Speaker 4 (22:58):
Yeah, so I suppose there's a sort of there's a
there's an argument to say that.

Speaker 3 (23:03):
I mean that that comes from the from the.

Speaker 4 (23:04):
Notion of of of recasting what it is to be
an individual. So you know, you're your your personal enrichment
actually relies on the relationships that you can cultivate with
other people. So you know, the the quality of those
relationships is actually something that of course benefits you.

Speaker 3 (23:25):
But I think the I mean, one of the things.
Can tells this story about.

Speaker 4 (23:30):
A child drowning in a river, and he imagines three
people standing on the river bank. One of them is
a religious believer, the second one is he calls an
ordinary bourgeois a utilitarian, and the third one he doesn't
describe at all. And he says, you know what what
happens when they see this child in the river. And
he says, well, the religious person is wondering, you know,

(23:51):
I should go and save the child because I'll reap
my reward in heaven. And the utilitarian is thinking, you know,
if I if I save this child, then I'm going
to feel really good about myself, and so therefore I
should do it. And while they're while they're sort of
going through that process of reasoning, the third person has
just jumped in and saved the child.

Speaker 3 (24:10):
And that's mutual aid.

Speaker 2 (24:12):
Yeah, yes, I think that's very good. Yeah, it comes
from Yeah, it doesn't need to be like overly theorized
to suppose. Yeah, and it really doesn't, like I've never
I think the construction of mutual aid is important because
it allows us to join the dots across the world
and across time and to see the relationship with the state.
But it doesn't need you don't need to have read
Cropotkin to like, I know, a big it's sprung up

(24:36):
here a lot in the pandemic too, right, like free
shops and certainly for older people or people who are compromised.
I remember breaking thousands of loaves of bread from the
pizza shop down the street wasn't able to open, so
they would bring me flower and I would make bread
and we would take it to people, and things like
that were very spontaneous and didn't particularly need like theorizing

(24:57):
in terms of crow Popkin. But sadly they sort of
we lost a lot of that with the you know,
with the reduction in the severity of the pandemic, I guess,
and I think it's important to remember that that was
a natural response on one that we should cultivate.

Speaker 3 (25:13):
Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Speaker 4 (25:14):
I mean, you know, I mean there were all sorts
of things that were going on here. I mean there
were people who were sewing up scrubs for health workers,
delivering lunches to health workers, you know, as well as
just you know, the checking on the neighbors making sure
that people were okay. So yeah, I mean it took
you know, multiple different forms, and yeah, I mean it

(25:35):
is difficult because you know, once real life as it
were sort of returned and the and the lockdowns were relaxed,
you know, people have all kinds of other demands on
their time, and again we sort of then get used
to thinking that, you know, somebody else is going to
pick up the pieces now.

Speaker 2 (25:55):
Yeah, yeah, I do think that that's part of that
lock down nostalgia, which is bizarrely already occurring three years.

Speaker 1 (26:04):
Down the line.

Speaker 2 (26:05):
But people look back and think, oh, well, it wasn't
that bad, and obviously thousands of people died that we
shouldn't overlook that. But part of what people looking back
on is that sense of community, which I think so
many of us lack. The alienation is very real for
a lot of us, and so those mutual A groups
or watchapp groups and things gave people a real sense
of belonging. I think that's the same A lot of

(26:25):
people felt that way in twenty twenty, for obviously, there
was an uprising in the United States which gave people
a sense of purpose which maybe they they're not feeling
anymore if people are interested in I guess there's learning

(26:47):
and there's doing, and that they can be distinct or
they can be done at the same time, and we
can learn by doing. And where would people start they
want to start their reading? Are their texts that you'd recommend,
that you know, are not the size of a breeze
block that people might approachable, Well.

Speaker 4 (27:03):
You can get I mean, yeah, I mean, I'm I
mean Potkin's book Mutual Aid is quite long. I mean,
it's the last two chapters really that are the ones
to read, and that's freely available online.

Speaker 3 (27:15):
It's I mean, it's a very nineteenth century kind of argument.
I mean.

Speaker 4 (27:18):
The other I mean, the other one that I really
like is Cindy Milstein's Anarchism and Its Aspirations, and that's short,
it's very accessible, and she has this discussion of mutual
aid where she she links it to what she calls
the ethical Compass, and I think that speaks really nicely
to the to the you know, the principles and the sentiments,

(27:39):
if you like, of mutual aid, that it is this
kind of thick relationship that people cultivate but not necessarily
a not necessarily with a view to living in sort
of permanently in community with each other, but actually to
change the dynamics of the the kind of the cities

(28:00):
we live in and the detachments that we not only
have but also sometimes kind of value. We don't necessarily
want to live in each other's pockets. But actually that
doesn't mean to say that we can't practice much live
with each other.

Speaker 2 (28:14):
Yeah, I think that'd be a great, great place for
people to start if they want to read a tiny
bio of Cropotkin. Dog Section Press has an excellent, excellent
I'm a big fan of their great Anarchist book.

Speaker 1 (28:27):
I think it's very approachable for.

Speaker 4 (28:29):
Yeah, they're also they're also available.

Speaker 1 (28:32):
Online, Yes they are.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (28:33):
Yeah, and they're illustrated.

Speaker 1 (28:35):
Yeah, they're very beautifully illustrated.

Speaker 2 (28:39):
It's been a good one for me to assign to
students and have them approach anarchism from a non prejudice perspective,
I suppose, which is which can be hard? Like I
always remember coming to the US for the first time
when I was twenty one, and like, I don't think
I presented in a way that was particularly affable to
the Transport Security Administration. But what are you doing here?

(29:01):
I'm pH d student, what are you studying political violence
and the anarchist unions? I was immediately sent to the
little room that you go to, UH and I had
some more questions to answer. But I think it's it's
really important to present anarchism, I think through the lens
of mut because I think so often it's viewed through

(29:21):
the lens of like a predilection for chaos and violence,
which is the opposite of what you're doing when you
know you're giving someone a blanket or something like it's
and so I think if people listening will at least
be familiar with the concept of anarchism and mutual aid
and not see it in that prejudicial way. But I
think if we can present it to other people, you know,
you're doing anarchism everyone was doing getting start the pandemic

(29:44):
when they were sewing masks like you say, or home
brewing hand sanitizer.

Speaker 4 (29:48):
Yeah, And I think that's I think that's really important
actually to the to the argument that the mutual aid
is for everyone, so you know, you're not anarchists are
not trying to change people's heads or get them to
think in particular ways when they talk about mutual aid.
What they're doing is tapping into a propensity that exists

(30:14):
within all of us. And what an anarchists are saying
is that if you, you know, if you push organizations
in particular directions and actually you've got a better way
or a better means of a better sort of environment
within which you can sustain those practices. But mutual aid
itself is not about being an anarchist. It's about being

(30:36):
a human being.

Speaker 2 (30:37):
Yeah, I wonder so if people want to sort of
build ways of taking care of each other without the
state where they are, maybe they can see a problem,
right that hasn't been addressed by the state, like one
of those holes that you spoke about, or a problem
that the state is addressing inadequately or in an undesirable way.
How would they go about? Like, do you have advice
people looking to start? It can be especially if you're

(30:59):
not on social media, which I know we've had people email,
but like, I'm not on Facebook or Twitter? And how
do I organize mutual aid? Do you have any suggestions
for that?

Speaker 3 (31:07):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (31:07):
So, I mean there are, I mean there are normally
sort of in any I mean certainly where I live,
which is a small market town. I mean there is
a community center there. I mean there are churches too,
but I mean there is a sort of a local
civic center, if you like, which has all kinds of
adverts for local groups and activities. There's a I mean,
we're a town of sanctuary, so we're one of the

(31:28):
places that migrants are sent to in order to register.
And the people who are involved in the Town of Sanctuary,
they meet them, greet them, try and give them information
that's useful to them. They run English language classes, They
try and get the kids into swimming pools.

Speaker 3 (31:46):
I mean, they're all sorts of things activities that they're doing.

Speaker 4 (31:49):
So I think it's a matter of sort of seeing
what's there yea, and then sort of try. I mean
often I think people don't realize the skills they have.
So for example, you know, if they speak more in
one language, it's often really helpful to people who are
arriving in a foreign land or a land that they
don't they're they're not speakers of the native language, you know,

(32:11):
to help translate, to share information, just to point people
in the direction where they can get help from from
other agencies. So I don't think I mean, it seems
to me that you know, mutual aid is not necessarily
trying to sort of say you're not going to enable
people to access support services that are provided. I mean,
even if they're paltry services provided by the state. What

(32:33):
you're trying to do is to meet people's needs.

Speaker 3 (32:36):
And there are.

Speaker 4 (32:37):
Existing groups and associations which are which will enable you
to do that. I mean, you could go if you
live at the seaside, you could go down to your
local lifeboat association and see if they need a volunteer
to run the office. You know, there are that these
are the sorts of things things that keep these institutions running.

Speaker 3 (32:55):
That's the kind of thing that you can do.

Speaker 1 (32:57):
Yeah. I think that's a very good, very good suggest
for people.

Speaker 2 (33:00):
And we don't we don't need to be like turn
our noses up at support for the state where what
little is available, we should avail ourselves and are the
people who need.

Speaker 3 (33:08):
It and empower other people to get to Yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:10):
Yeah, absolutely, And certainly we can't. We can't act as
if the state doesn't exist at a time where it does.
It's powerful and it can hurt run more people.

Speaker 3 (33:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:19):
I think that's Is there anything.

Speaker 2 (33:20):
Else you'd like to say before we finish up on
the topic of mutual aid.

Speaker 4 (33:26):
No, I think we've covered Yeah, I think we've we've
sort of covered it. I mean, I just I guess
it's a you know, mutual aid is a is The
important thing for me is that mutual aid is a
It's an easy thing and it's and it and it
can build and that's the the and it can be sustained.
That's the joy of it. And I think that's the

(33:46):
brilliant thing about the example of the life but association. Yeah,
we can set up all kinds of things and run them.
We don't need to be told to do it. We
don't need to be told how to do it.

Speaker 1 (33:57):
Yeah. I remember.

Speaker 2 (33:58):
One of the things that always gives me like a
little spark of joy for such a venerable British institution
with Royal in its name, is that they celebrate for
Hopkins's birthday apparently, Yeah, exactly. They'll post on all their
social media like pictures of cropopkin like a little birthday
cake and the celebrations, which, yeah, I think people should,

(34:21):
you know, take a little moment of joy to celebrate.

Speaker 1 (34:24):
These things that we've already achieved. And I guess trying
to be better.

Speaker 2 (34:27):
Is there is there any way people can find you
on the internet. I don't know if you have social
media or website.

Speaker 4 (34:33):
Not on social media, but I'm easily you can find
me at the university at luf for University.

Speaker 3 (34:39):
It's lo ugh b O r g H.

Speaker 1 (34:44):
It's one some of my colleagues have struggled with.

Speaker 3 (34:48):
It's not easy.

Speaker 4 (34:50):
Yeah, so that's the easiest post to find me in.
My contact information is there, and if anyone wants to
write to me, then I'm happy to write back.

Speaker 2 (34:56):
Wonderful, Thank you so much pleasure.

Speaker 1 (35:04):
It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 3 (35:15):
You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated
monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.