June 25, 2024 • 33 mins
James talks to immigration attorney Kirsten Zittlau about ICE’s recent transfer of asylum seekers from detention in California to Texas, Biden’s recent executive order, and how to participate in mutual aid to help migrants.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Also media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Hi everyone, it's me James and I am joined today
by Kirsty Zitlau, who is a boiler water drop volunteer
I've done some water ropes together, and also an immigration layer,
and we're going to talk about ice transferring people and
their detention and generally the sort of post a rival
process that migrants asylum seeker specifically faced when they come
to the United States. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Thank you, thanks for having me, Thanks.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
For being here. So I think to start out with
people when I speak to them, like in my day
to day life, are very unaware of the situations that
migrants face when it comes to obtaining legal representation. Right,
So maybe we could start off by just explaining that
this isn't like if you're accused of a crime rate
in theory it's a civil proceeding, but also they'll lock
you up, but you don't get a public defender assigned
(00:50):
to you. Right, So can you explain someone Let's say
someone comes through the hole in the fence in Ciccumbo, Right,
they get detained at the o EDS, We give them
a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, and then they get
taken out processed. What happens after that. So from when
they come to street release, what in terms of their
legal representation, how does it work?
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Yes, so I'll address the street release folks as well
as the people who are then taken to ICE attention. Yes, yeah,
so I'll start with the street release folks, so they well, first,
anybody who irregularly enters the United States not at a
port of entry is subject to detention, not just by
Border Patrol, but by ICE. The fortunate situation, I mean sorry,
(01:32):
the lining, the silver lining of this entire awful situation
is that there's so many people coming that there's not
enough detention space to detain everybody, and so hence the
street releases. So the people can then go directly to
their family. They will go with a notice to a
peer which starts their immigration court proceedings, which was issued
by Border Patrol. So immediately they have to navigate the
(01:54):
immigration court system, starting with the fact that the notice
to a peer might have a false date on it
as far as their court date, So that's the first
d it's the first issue.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
So what does that mean when you say a false date?
Like if they share upon that date, the hearing won't
be happening.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
So there's been a trend over the years to put
to be decided as a hearing date on their notice
to appear, which is the first document that says, hey,
you're now you can put in immigration court proceedings. We'll
send you a later notice to your address that you
gave us of when you're actually going to have that hearing,
or rather the court will. So the immigration lawyer bar
pushed real hard on this issue and said, no, this
(02:29):
is bs. You need to put a date in time.
The reason they weren't is because they didn't want to
take the time to coordinate with the courts to make
sure that there's actually a judge on that date and
time that they assign, So to satisfy the legal requirements
that we've pushed for, they often will just put a
fake date and time. So, in other words, they haven't
done anything to verify whether there's actually a judge sitting
(02:49):
at some court that day or time to hear their case.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Yeah, they're just making it up.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
So this is exactly So this is of course incredibly
confusing and very dangerous because they basically need an attorney
immediately to explain this concept to them. Because they first
of all, won't know how to look for when their
actual court date is, which is a link that I
don't think Border patrol ever gives them. And then if
they miss their actual court date, then they will of
course be ordered deported and the you know, then ICE
(03:16):
is after them, and really they have no other options
at that point. So really the need for an attorney
arises immediately. And often immigrants have been robbed, they've paid
all their money to transnational immigration criminal organizations, excuse me, so,
and an asylum case is costly. So they have a
right to an attorney, as you said, but only at
(03:37):
their own expense. Yeah, so this is a tremendous challenge
off the bat, as you can imagine.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Yeah, and then just to further sort of go down
that pathway, the attorney is paid for their own expense.
But without an attorney, they may not be able to
obtain a work permit.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Right, So one hundred percent, I mean, navigating the process
on your own is as an immigrant, it just it
seems basically impossible to me. I mean, there's there's so
much that even us as attorneys struggle with that it is,
and it's evolving all the time. So even if you
managed to submit your asylum application by yourself the process
(04:13):
and then later submitting the work permit form and knowing
where to send it and how to navigate uscis that's
I mean, like I said, it's difficult for us. I mean,
let's just say I got a work permit with somebody
else's photo on it the other day, so you know,
so it's a total mess. And to have an immigrant
even navigate that process is it just seems impossible.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I've no, I have not applied
for asylum, but when I renewed my green card, I
that myself, and English is my first language. I have
a PhD. I'm used to paperwork, and it was both
scary and complicated, and exactly your whole future is resting
on it. It's extremely anxiety.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
By design too. I mean it's it's they haven't updated
forms to become a resident since I mean, like the
thirties or something, right asked about it coming to possible
exactly exactly, and it's all just to make it as
difficult as possible in the wait times and everything else.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah, so how about the folks who go into ice
detention there?
Speaker 3 (05:10):
So these are typically people well, I mean that's just
the thing. These days, there aren't the typical people who
go into ICE attention. It's kind of it seems to
me that certainly there's people who are mandatory detention, where
if they have a prior deportation order or prior criminal
or immigration history in this country, they will probably be detained.
(05:32):
But I've also noticed a lot of racial profiling in
the detention. I have a few black clients right now
in detention, and if they were white, I'm absolutely convinced
they are not even white but Latino, they would have
been released already. So and one of them is a
black Muslim man from Kenya, and he's been called a
suspected terrorist by ICE for six months or more that
(05:55):
he's been intotention with zero proof whatsoever, and so they'll
just hold them for that reason because he's a black
Muslim man. So these are often people with very meritorious
cases like for example, this man was an opposition party
leader and recruiter back in Kenya. So these people just
need I mean, whether they win or not win their
(06:15):
case or not, can hinge on just being able to
get representation, you know, because he's very intelligent and probably
would have been able to put together a good case
on his behalf. But the stats about people winning cases
detained without attorneys is very, very low. So yeah, so
then they have to work with a family member on
the outside obviously to get a hold of an attorney.
(06:35):
Not a lot of attorneys or all attorneys do detained
work because it is so difficult to start with, I mean,
access to your client is just so limited. And getting evidence,
I mean they have to have a reliable family and
to support network on the outside essentially to help them
get evidence from their home country. I mean, how else
do you do that detained And so it's a lot
of work, coordinating as an attorney and so forth. So
(06:57):
San Diego County saw that need actually started a great program.
I'm not exactly sure when it started, but apparently they
weren't getting enough applicants and maybe it's been around for
a little bit, but they didn't know about it. And
it's they set aside like five million dollars to specifically
pay attorneys to represent people detained an O time ASIE,
which is of course the big ice attention center in
(07:19):
San Diego. So that caused there to be more attorneys,
you know, or more or slightly more represented people at
O taime Asie, which was great. Yeah, because typically when
I go in there, you know, this is just anecdotal evidence,
You'll see a handful of attorneys, maybe a couple maybe
at most like five, and then you see all the detainees,
the immigrants sitting there, and there's clearly more than there
(07:40):
are attorneys. So you know, I read a stat by
the ALU that it's like something like seventy percent as
of twenty twenty one did not have attorneys and detention centers.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Right, so they just won't be represented throughout that process exactly,
and certainly, like god forbid, you're a Muslim, Yeah, if
you're a black Muslim man, you're like at the intersection
of things that are going to have you sent street.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
To do exactly.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Just to briefly explain for people who an't familiar when
we talk about ICE detention, what are we talking about, Like,
what are the conditions and who is often operating these detention.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
Centers excellent points. So these are for profit detention centers,
So it is operated by ICE in conjunction with two
large companies called Corcivic or Geogroup. And if you're not
familiar with these companies. Google them and you will immediately
be horrified. Yeah, so it's a horrifying state of affairs. Essentially.
(08:34):
One of the biggest things in one can google this
right now is the wrongful death suits and payouts. So
literally the business model is to allow people to die
detained as a cost of business rather than give them
proper medical care or take them to the hospital and
so forth. And they will pay out and they do
pay out millions to families. And I've seen this in action,
(08:58):
not that any of my clients died, but just the
the gravity to which the health situation has to be
in order to have a prayer of getting them out.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Yeah, it's it's very sad. Like I think one thing
that I come back to now, like four years issh
into a Biden administration is that like on one of
his first dexutive orders was he's going to end for
profit prisons, and he never did shit about the ice detention.
Like right from the outset there was like these people
are do not have the same right to the people,
(09:29):
and we don't care about them as.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
Much exactly exactly, and at this part well and at
this point too, it's like, given that he's done a
one eighty on anything that was pro immigrant or that
he said he was going to do. At the beginning,
you kind of start to wonder, is he just being
paid off by the same people, by a geogroup or
cor civic you know they they contribute millions of dollars
to whoever is running for president for good reason. So
(09:51):
it makes you wonder from that aspect as well.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Yeah, like it. Certainly it was in his immigration reform
built right between increase the amount of ice, tension facility beds,
rush cells or whatever how you want to put that.
Hopefully this advert that we're about to pivot to here
is not for cour Civic Audio Group, but if it is,
fuck them.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Amen.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
All right, we are back and we're going to talk
about this process advice relocating detainees. So this is something
that you've actually you've done interview about recently, right A.
Pece written about it.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Yes, Yes, I did two interviews about it, just because
it's an issue very close to my heart. For several reasons.
Detained work is very, very difficult, and just the fact
that few attorneys do it. I mean more have now
in light of the County program. But still it's it's
very emotionally draining too. You see, you literally see the
(10:53):
decline of the person in front of your eyes, both
mentally and physically, and it's just it's take.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
A lot out of you.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
So these people need and deserve representation, and like I said,
are often detained unjustly and have strong cases that they
could actually win. So basically these people deserve representation and
need it the most. I mean, they're basically the most
marginalized out of any immigrant there is. So for ICE
(11:22):
to suddenly start transferring mass transferring, I might add, represented
detainees when they never have in the past, and they
haven't their own memo from twenty twelve that says they
shouldn't do this except for exigent circumstances, you know, like
some and they describe it as some medical issue or
something severe that requires it. It's just it's pretty obvious
(11:46):
that this is just direct retaliation or just designed to
get attorneys out of O Tai, because there's been more
of them in there, and we tend to make a stink,
and we tend to we tend to ask, hey, why
haven't you given a decision on my client's requests to
be released, and what's going on here? And we tend
to send a lot of emails advocating for our clients,
(12:08):
and we tend to be pains in the asses. And
before this happened, I noticed that ICE was just not
responding at all, whereas I had some relationship with the
ICE agents that are at the detention center. Just to
back up, every client is assigned to a deportation officer,
so you technically have somebody from ICE to communicate with,
and they're supposed to be in charge of the person detained,
(12:31):
you know, whether they're released or whether the treatment like
any they're their point of contact. And so even under
the Trump years, you'd be able to yeah, you might
have to follow up, but you'd be able to communicate
with a couple of them or some of them would do,
you know. And so I noticed in the past year
or two that this ISS just been kind of this
scorched earth approach where they just won't get back to
(12:51):
you or yeah. And and they're also not responding to
requests to have people released for just months and months
and months despite attorneys asking. And so it doesn't surprise
me that the timing of this and that they would
do this. Now that I'm reflecting back on this as
well as the county program. There's more attorneys at O
(13:14):
Tai Mesa now and so I mean essentially what happens
is if the person is transferred, which they've all been
transferred to places like I think Colorado is probably the
best option, but generally like Louisiana, Mississippi, things like that.
Texas is where my clients are currently. So these are
places where you can imagine there's a not a lot
of quality immigration attorneys and b not a high chance
(13:36):
of winning your case given the nature of the judges
that are there.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Yeah, sod migrants articulate to me that they would not
want to be in the fifth circuit exactly. Come here
in the ninth circuit exactly. They're getting sent right back
to the fifth circuit there exactly.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
And that's where my clients are now. And one judge
from O Tai decided who scolded me for suggesting that
this was even by design. He told me to act
more professional. He didn't say anything to the DHS attorney
about what his client was doing. It told me to
act more professional, changed venue for that client. I was
talking about the Kenyan client. And so we're now in
El Paso and thank God he has a strong case.
(14:16):
But even then I wonder because that's it's I mean,
if it's well known amongst migrants, you can imagine how badis.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
If it's someone who knows nothing the US.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
Yes, I mean, so it's just it's ludicrous that you have,
you know, people pretending like a judges, you know, just
like this had to happen when you have you know,
seventy percent of people you know, at least that's slightly dated,
but still I don't think the percentage is that, even
if it's fifty percent, why not unrepresented people? So to
(14:47):
do this, it's just a very obvious, like fuck you.
I mean, it's just there's no other way to to
justify it.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Yeah, and like when that happened, right, so you have
this this gentleman from Kenya who's been he's been transferred
to Texas. That then you then have to travel to
Texas right for his hearings to talk to meet with him.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Yeah, so that's the whole that's the whole big battle.
And I have I have two different clients with two
different experiences. So so he I will either have to
appear via WebEx from my home. But then the judge
now has two people remotely because my client's not an
El Paso either. He's detained an Anson, Texas, which is
(15:31):
a blip about three hours away from Dallas or something.
So they and this is also by design, right, they
put all these attention centers in the middle of nowhere
because God forbid, the public sees that people seeking asylum
are in prisons. So anyways, so both of us are
going to be remote if that's the case. So, I mean,
I think there needs to be some personal contact and
(15:51):
maybe if I can have some communication with the DHS council.
I have to go to El Paso to give my
client the best chance of something, you know. Otherwise we're
both faces on this video with a fifth circuit judge,
you know. So the other flip side of the coin
was that I have another client who was transferred and
his trial is literally around the corner. It's next week.
So yeah, he was transferred four weeks before as individual hearings.
(16:13):
So I filed something scathing, saying judge, please don't consider
changing venue. This is you know, yeah, he's been detained
long enough. He's a twenty one year old by the way,
I mean, so DHS sheepishly filed something. So Council for
ICE filed something saying, okay, well we're asked, we agree
to that. We just asked that he could appear via
(16:33):
WebEx from ants in Texas. Also, right, so now he's
going to be a face on a screen. But I
can be at o tie. But still, I mean these
are all significant disadvantages. I mean, judges are evaluating immigrants
to see whether or not in their mind they're quote credible.
That means do they think they're lying or not. That's
very hard to do on a video because you're looking
for body language, you're looking for subtle things, you know.
(16:57):
And also it's just like the human aspect of it
is very important. You know, it's easier to deny asylum
to somebody on a screen that it is somebody sitting
in front of you. You know, there's so many there's
so many small aspects, and so ICE claims like, oh well,
well you just you can communicate, just fine, you know,
you can commune. We'll offer you calls and even video calls.
And I'm like, okay, you don't understand anything about being
(17:18):
an attorney and what it means to to actually represent
clients at the person's final court hearing, they are asked
to swear to the contents of not only their asylum application,
but also all evidence they filed. And so if how
on earth can you show them and sit with them
to show them the evidence in person? You know that
you can only do and person. So it's just this
(17:39):
whole concept that you can that you can even adequately
lawyer remotely or over the phone. It's it's just it's
not possible.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Yeah, and especially for people who are less, you know,
like I spent less time on Zoom than we have
in the past four years.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
Right exactly. And a lot of these people are are
are traumatized, you know, and are you like, as an attorney,
you need to build rapport with them, and you do
that by meeting with them in person, otherwise they might
not share vital information with you, you know. And and honestly,
the family of the twenty one year old mainly hired
me to be with him during his final hearing, and
(18:18):
so now I can't even do that, you know, just
to try to calm and you know, these people are petrified.
They've been through so much and now they have to
talk about all of it in front of this American
judge and a robe from a prison. Yeah, and I
have to be their only ally is not even with them.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Yeah, And like there's understandably in a little country saying
something on the phone or on a call might be
a risk, right one hundred percent. You know it takes
I'm not saying it's not a risk doing it in
this country. Like all of these things stuck up against them.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
I spend most of my time telling my clients like, hey,
what we discuss on the phone is attorney client privilege,
Like nobody could use this even if they try, and
it doesn't calm them down because it's just they think
they're being recorded, probably from their experiences in their home countries.
And frankly, I don't even know if we're being recorded.
I just know that it can't be you are it
(19:12):
can't be used, you know. I mean so, yeah, there's
so many things that go into representing somebody who's detained,
and I just knows all of this full well. So
this is a very deliberate choice, and it's something we
haven't seen before, like ever. I mean, everybody's pretty shocked
by this.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Yeah, when did it begin? Sort of?
Speaker 3 (19:31):
I want to say a couple months ago. But this
mass transfer they did that sparked us to talk to
the press and so forth was over Memorial Day weekend,
so they liked to do that too. I've noticed over
holiday weekends because last year they were trying to deport
a couple of my clients even though they had things pending,
and they try to do it over the weekend and
so on purpose, right, and so the client's families would
(19:54):
call and be like, hey, he's being printed, like processed
for being deported, and so we immediately Yeah, I had
to do this twice a year ago, so I had
to send two emails basically documenting and ceaseeing the ice
attorney being like, Hi, they have a pending X y
Z case. It is unlawful to stop what you're doing immediately.
(20:15):
But like, had we not been notified over the weekend
and sent that email, they would have been deported despite
having a kid. So this is the type of stuff
that regularly happens. But it's very ballsy to me to transfer,
Like I think it was probably like one hundred people
or hundreds or something, you know, I mean over a
Memorial Day weekend, you know. And of course, oh, their
memo by the way also says they're supposed to notify
(20:36):
the attorneys, you know. I mean I heard from frantic
family members who are like, why the fuck am I
getting a call from ants in Texas?
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (20:44):
Oh, and this is rich. You'll appreciate this. It wasn't
even one transfer. They first went to Eden, Texas, which
is another lovely place in Texas. And then a week
later we're moved to this place called blue Bonnet because
they have to give them pretty names, right, detention facility
at Antsen. Yeah, and so I had arranged a legal
call at the first attention facility and then had to
(21:06):
like do it all, do this process all over again,
and they ask you for everything but like your DNA
in order to prove that you're their attorney, you know,
to get this legal call. I mean I spent two
weeks just try to figure out where my client was.
And these are two Imagine this is sucked up like
all my time since Memorial Day. I mean there's other clients,
you know, I've I've been struggling to get to their cases.
Like thankfully I haven't had too many deadlines, but I
(21:29):
mean it's it's been brutal.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Yeah, that secks totally brutal, pointing we have the brutal
oligation to transfer to ads for a second time. So
we're going to do that and then we're going to
come back. All right, we're back. So we've heard about
(21:51):
how ice A transferring people across two different different parts
of the United States. What I wanted to talk about
now was another recent development, which was Joe Biden's executive order,
not the very recent one on parole in place. People
have seen that, but it's one quote unquote closing the border.
Can you explain, we haven't really seen that impact on
(22:14):
the ground yet, but can you explain these people are
supposed to get essentially a document forbidding them from re
entering for five years.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Correct, And it's not just any documents. Yes, it's the
worst document. So it is an expedited or moval, which
is a fancy term for a deportation order that when
issued by Border Patrol CVP, carries with it a five
year bar, and so that means you're not admissible in
any way, shape or form to the United States, and
(22:44):
if you try to re enter during that time period
or even at any time irregularly, you will then be
put in what's called withholding only proceedings, and that essentially
means you were no longer eligible for anything, not even asylum,
just a very very difficult form of asylum which is
called withholding or protection of the Convention, it's torture, which
is also very difficult to win. So that those are
(23:07):
the two things you're stuck fighting. And then you are
also mandatory attention, so there's no possibility of you getting
out unless you're in your case, which is of course
very very difficult. So I can I haven't seen this
play out, you know, like we're saying it's relatively new
and yeah, but I can imagine based on my experience
and based on what all of us know, that like,
(23:28):
people aren't gonna have any idea what this is, and
they're gonna and plus there's desperation and other fact. I mean,
they just came through the dairy end. They're not gonna
let a piece of paper stop them, you know. So
I mean, so these people are probably going to turn
around and try again and end up being in this
withholding only posture, which means they're now really screwed in
terms of having a way difficult time winning any sort
(23:50):
of relief, and definitely detained like they will not be released.
I've had clients on occasion like every blue Moon be released,
but the way I acting these days, I don't think
it'll happen. So one of the thoughts I had is
this justifying additional detention centers if we're now having going
(24:11):
to have probably more of those types of people. But
it just in general, I don't see there being a
shortage of people they can detain, So I think.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Yeah, no, I think they Yeah. I don't think that
we have an option in November to vote for a
person who isn't going to build more prisons.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
For refugees one hundred percent one hundred percent, which is
which is why. And I think that's something very you know,
it can be you can take it and be like, Okay,
I'm so depressed, you know, blah blah. There's nobody to
vote for, like, you know, because basically Biden has done,
you know, gravitated so far to the right.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
I called all the stuff that they waved it up
in twenty twenty, sod Trump will do this.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
Biden has stay exactly right, and so I don't even
know that I called him Trump light, but I don't
even know if he's Trump Light anymore. He's like more
like Trump medium or almost there, you know.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
So less racist speeches.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
Exactly, Trump minus the racist spech is exactly. So it's
just I mean, so the way to look at this
is that like literally we are their only hope. I mean,
the government here is not only like not only gonna
not save them from anything. They're in creating all these situations,
putting them in more peril. So it really behooves us
(25:19):
to find all the different grassroots organizations, and there's there's
so many of them that we can help and donate
involundar teer our time too, because that's literally all these
people have.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Yeah, so let's talk about that a bit. Because something
both you and I do as we participate in water drops,
in in migrant aid of various kinds, welcome stations of
the thing we've been doing recently. You know, you and
I were out Now I'm just going to collapses on itself,
but we were out in a place near the border.
We were there when we met the two Mauritanian dudes.
(25:50):
You carried the Chinese exactly. Yeah, Yeah, that was so beautiful, right, Yea,
it was such a wonderful, Like obviously it's pretty bleak
that the guys aren't able to use one of his
legs properly. And yeah, therefore two people who don't and
share a single word with him had to carry him.
And these two Mauritanian men we met, I'll just rewind
to tell the whole story. Yeah, we were driving down
the road and we kept meeting groups of Mauritanian refugees
(26:10):
coming north and we were able to help them by
giving them water in.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
The quick interruption. By the way, I looked up Mauritanian
and unsurprisingly they have female general emulation, child labor and
basically any like it's just horrific capital punishments.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Yeah, gay people, right, exactly. Yeah, So these people, very
very nice, just wanted mostly a bottle of water, and
you know how far tw weekend surrounded to border withtrol
which is what they intend to do. And they kept
saying that there's a guy with a broken leg and
we were like, oh shit, but that's potentially fatal in
this place that we're at. They just keep saying, go
(26:46):
down the road, you'll see him. So we keep going
down the road and we come around the corner and
there's two guys sort of eat and then a third
guy in the middle of them with his hands over
both their shoulders, right, and they're sort of humping him
down the road. And it turns out that this Chinese
man only speaking Mandarin, had he had like a brace
or like a like an external fixation on his leg,
like like bolts through his leg and couldn't walk. And
(27:10):
these dudes have been carrying him for two days and
they couldn't she speak the same language like they didn't
they weren't able to communicate, and it was the most
humane thing, and it made me just so ashamed that
like these people, in a time of desperation for themselves,
have taken the risk to help other people. And then
here's our government just being like, screw you. If you
(27:31):
don't belong here, we're going to put you straight in
prison or especially these these are mostly Muslim African men
from Mauritania right there. Generally sort of that that will
be one of the more persecuted demographics. And perhaps you
can talk about like how you got into participating in
water drops and how other people could do so, or
any any form of a direct mutual aid, I suppose
(27:53):
says like advocacy.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I mean, I think I think the
main thing to take away is the it it's easier
to help or participate then one would think, you know,
I think you look at this issue of immigration and
it's so overwhelming right now, and it can be a
bit like, oh God, you know, what can I possibly do?
(28:17):
Or you know, and even if i'm you know, what
difference am I making?
Speaker 1 (28:21):
You know?
Speaker 3 (28:21):
And it's just like I have the same struggles working
as you know, an immigration attorney, because you're just like God,
you see just the vast need and you know, you
focus on the person in front of you, you know,
and not to sound cheesy, but that's the life you
can affect. And so we're and all of us collectively
have an impact more than we know, you know. So
(28:43):
I think that's just the first thing to share. So
don't don't feel defeated and think that. Remember that if
you have twenty extra bucks a month to spare, for example,
like if you donate that to supplies for migrants, then
that literally allows the work of water dropping to continue.
And you know, that's the other side of the coin.
(29:07):
If we can go out all we want, but if
we don't have money or supplies to drop, then nothing
gets done, you know. So if you live in any
part of the country, really you can find a reputable organization,
you know, or BRC is a collective. I volunteer with
Borderlands Relief Collective and every cent goes directly to the
supplies that we drop, and that's a very huge, tangible
(29:31):
source of help. All of our supplies are consumed, as
you know, within a week or so, we think, you know.
So it's just there's so many different ways to to participate.
There's organizations that allow you to talk to detained immigrants,
you know, like Freedom for Immigrants or you know, there's
different ways you can help if you want to communicate
(29:51):
with them. There's also Detention Resistance who works with the
people mainly in No Taimesa to help just provide even
a source of support, just someone a human being to
talk to, who can help them with little things like
writing letters or putting money in their account to be
able to contact family members. I say little things, but
those things are huge because if you can imagine being
(30:14):
an immigrant in another country and you know somebody in
that and you're in a prison, but somebody in that
country or a few people are are showing you love.
I think at the end of the day, whether you're
officially deported or when asylum or whatever, those are the
things that stick with people because I know that they're
going to remember that probably for the rest of their lives.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Yeah, and I think it's the least we can need
to be welcoming with exactly exactly.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
That's why the welcome stations that we do are so
beautiful too, right, because it's just I mean what we
were doing that day when we met those two people
or the three people rather, and it's just like they
get a help a loving, helpful person as their first
exposure to the United States. And then, you know, I said,
instead of border patrol which makes them take off their
shoelaces and treats them you.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Know, yeah, like their criminals.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Yeah, and it's nice like I've exchanged for nubers with
those people and they're like, oh, you're the first American
they met. You'll always be like my first American friend,
someone said the other day. And though that was really sweet.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
It's a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful thing. I think
about that all the time with my clients. You know,
I'm just like, God, I feel so fortunate to meet
all these people, you know, from different countries. It's just
and I'm embarrassed to say that I have to usually
google where the country is, you know what I mean,
it's awful. I don't know what our geography education was,
but let's just say I didn't get much of it.
But you know, just where am I going to meet
(31:33):
people from Belize, from Kenya, from Trinidad, from Chad, you know,
and be able to really share life with them to
a certain extent or you know, I know their most
vulnerable and awful experiences. I know their family, you know,
or about their families and about them, and it's a
really beautiful thing. So it's just, you know, unfortunate. So
to have to interact with them and in a prison
(31:55):
is just you know, it's just it's just ridiculous, you know.
But so that's that why those welcome tables are I
think so just pure and precious because at that moment
there's no bullshit involved yet, there's no US government. It's
just humans interacting with humans.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Yeah, it totally is really nice. It's one of the
better things that I like to do. And yeah, if
you if you replaced where you can do it, you
should do it. If you're not, it will be great
if you get in your money. I am going to
read as we finish up a plug for the Sidewalk
School Matamortos and by Noosa. I just want to like
they are in desperate needed money right now. They do
amazing work with people on both sides of the border.
(32:31):
I've been on a panel with Felicia for UCLA that
you can find if you're good at googling things. It's
on YouTube. It's the Allied Community Arts Brigade. UCLA hosted
a panel, so if you if you search that and
Border panel, I'm sure you'll find it. And if you
want to know more about the Sidewalk School, I recommend it.
And we're joined there by people from Border Kindness and
Alo Torolado, which are both excellent organizations working on the
(32:52):
boarder here. But the Sidewalk School are working with refugees
and asigum seekers on both sides of the border in
Matamortos and Brayosa, so in Texas, and they definitely need
your money. If you would like to support them, you
can go to gofund dot me slash zero six, CDC
seventy six and we'll include that in the notes of
(33:12):
this podcast as well. Kasein, thank you so much for
your time. We really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
Thank you, James, thank you.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media.
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
cool zonemedia dot com or check us out on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated
monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.
Also media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Hi everyone, it's me James and I am joined today
by Kirsty Zitlau, who is a boiler water drop volunteer
I've done some water ropes together, and also an immigration layer,
and we're going to talk about ice transferring people and
their detention and generally the sort of post a rival
process that migrants asylum seeker specifically faced when they come
to the United States. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Thank you, thanks for having me, Thanks.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
For being here. So I think to start out with
people when I speak to them, like in my day
to day life, are very unaware of the situations that
migrants face when it comes to obtaining legal representation. Right,
So maybe we could start off by just explaining that
this isn't like if you're accused of a crime rate
in theory it's a civil proceeding, but also they'll lock
you up, but you don't get a public defender assigned
(00:50):
to you. Right, So can you explain someone Let's say
someone comes through the hole in the fence in Ciccumbo, Right,
they get detained at the o EDS, We give them
a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, and then they get
taken out processed. What happens after that. So from when
they come to street release, what in terms of their
legal representation, how does it work?
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Yes, so I'll address the street release folks as well
as the people who are then taken to ICE attention. Yes, yeah,
so I'll start with the street release folks, so they well, first,
anybody who irregularly enters the United States not at a
port of entry is subject to detention, not just by
Border Patrol, but by ICE. The fortunate situation, I mean sorry,
(01:32):
the lining, the silver lining of this entire awful situation
is that there's so many people coming that there's not
enough detention space to detain everybody, and so hence the
street releases. So the people can then go directly to
their family. They will go with a notice to a
peer which starts their immigration court proceedings, which was issued
by Border Patrol. So immediately they have to navigate the
(01:54):
immigration court system, starting with the fact that the notice
to a peer might have a false date on it
as far as their court date, So that's the first
d it's the first issue.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
So what does that mean when you say a false date?
Like if they share upon that date, the hearing won't
be happening.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
So there's been a trend over the years to put
to be decided as a hearing date on their notice
to appear, which is the first document that says, hey,
you're now you can put in immigration court proceedings. We'll
send you a later notice to your address that you
gave us of when you're actually going to have that hearing,
or rather the court will. So the immigration lawyer bar
pushed real hard on this issue and said, no, this
(02:29):
is bs. You need to put a date in time.
The reason they weren't is because they didn't want to
take the time to coordinate with the courts to make
sure that there's actually a judge on that date and
time that they assign, So to satisfy the legal requirements
that we've pushed for, they often will just put a
fake date and time. So, in other words, they haven't
done anything to verify whether there's actually a judge sitting
(02:49):
at some court that day or time to hear their case.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Yeah, they're just making it up.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
So this is exactly So this is of course incredibly
confusing and very dangerous because they basically need an attorney
immediately to explain this concept to them. Because they first
of all, won't know how to look for when their
actual court date is, which is a link that I
don't think Border patrol ever gives them. And then if
they miss their actual court date, then they will of
course be ordered deported and the you know, then ICE
(03:16):
is after them, and really they have no other options
at that point. So really the need for an attorney
arises immediately. And often immigrants have been robbed, they've paid
all their money to transnational immigration criminal organizations, excuse me, so,
and an asylum case is costly. So they have a
right to an attorney, as you said, but only at
(03:37):
their own expense. Yeah, so this is a tremendous challenge
off the bat, as you can imagine.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Yeah, and then just to further sort of go down
that pathway, the attorney is paid for their own expense.
But without an attorney, they may not be able to
obtain a work permit.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Right, So one hundred percent, I mean, navigating the process
on your own is as an immigrant, it just it
seems basically impossible to me. I mean, there's there's so
much that even us as attorneys struggle with that it is,
and it's evolving all the time. So even if you
managed to submit your asylum application by yourself the process
(04:13):
and then later submitting the work permit form and knowing
where to send it and how to navigate uscis that's
I mean, like I said, it's difficult for us. I mean,
let's just say I got a work permit with somebody
else's photo on it the other day, so you know,
so it's a total mess. And to have an immigrant
even navigate that process is it just seems impossible.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I've no, I have not applied
for asylum, but when I renewed my green card, I
that myself, and English is my first language. I have
a PhD. I'm used to paperwork, and it was both
scary and complicated, and exactly your whole future is resting
on it. It's extremely anxiety.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
By design too. I mean it's it's they haven't updated
forms to become a resident since I mean, like the
thirties or something, right asked about it coming to possible
exactly exactly, and it's all just to make it as
difficult as possible in the wait times and everything else.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah, so how about the folks who go into ice
detention there?
Speaker 3 (05:10):
So these are typically people well, I mean that's just
the thing. These days, there aren't the typical people who
go into ICE attention. It's kind of it seems to
me that certainly there's people who are mandatory detention, where
if they have a prior deportation order or prior criminal
or immigration history in this country, they will probably be detained.
(05:32):
But I've also noticed a lot of racial profiling in
the detention. I have a few black clients right now
in detention, and if they were white, I'm absolutely convinced
they are not even white but Latino, they would have
been released already. So and one of them is a
black Muslim man from Kenya, and he's been called a
suspected terrorist by ICE for six months or more that
(05:55):
he's been intotention with zero proof whatsoever, and so they'll
just hold them for that reason because he's a black
Muslim man. So these are often people with very meritorious
cases like for example, this man was an opposition party
leader and recruiter back in Kenya. So these people just
need I mean, whether they win or not win their
(06:15):
case or not, can hinge on just being able to
get representation, you know, because he's very intelligent and probably
would have been able to put together a good case
on his behalf. But the stats about people winning cases
detained without attorneys is very, very low. So yeah, so
then they have to work with a family member on
the outside obviously to get a hold of an attorney.
(06:35):
Not a lot of attorneys or all attorneys do detained
work because it is so difficult to start with, I mean,
access to your client is just so limited. And getting evidence,
I mean they have to have a reliable family and
to support network on the outside essentially to help them
get evidence from their home country. I mean, how else
do you do that detained And so it's a lot
of work, coordinating as an attorney and so forth. So
(06:57):
San Diego County saw that need actually started a great program.
I'm not exactly sure when it started, but apparently they
weren't getting enough applicants and maybe it's been around for
a little bit, but they didn't know about it. And
it's they set aside like five million dollars to specifically
pay attorneys to represent people detained an O time ASIE,
which is of course the big ice attention center in
(07:19):
San Diego. So that caused there to be more attorneys,
you know, or more or slightly more represented people at
O taime Asie, which was great. Yeah, because typically when
I go in there, you know, this is just anecdotal evidence,
You'll see a handful of attorneys, maybe a couple maybe
at most like five, and then you see all the detainees,
the immigrants sitting there, and there's clearly more than there
(07:40):
are attorneys. So you know, I read a stat by
the ALU that it's like something like seventy percent as
of twenty twenty one did not have attorneys and detention centers.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Right, so they just won't be represented throughout that process exactly,
and certainly, like god forbid, you're a Muslim, Yeah, if
you're a black Muslim man, you're like at the intersection
of things that are going to have you sent street.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
To do exactly.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Just to briefly explain for people who an't familiar when
we talk about ICE detention, what are we talking about, Like,
what are the conditions and who is often operating these detention.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
Centers excellent points. So these are for profit detention centers,
So it is operated by ICE in conjunction with two
large companies called Corcivic or Geogroup. And if you're not
familiar with these companies. Google them and you will immediately
be horrified. Yeah, so it's a horrifying state of affairs. Essentially.
(08:34):
One of the biggest things in one can google this
right now is the wrongful death suits and payouts. So
literally the business model is to allow people to die
detained as a cost of business rather than give them
proper medical care or take them to the hospital and
so forth. And they will pay out and they do
pay out millions to families. And I've seen this in action,
(08:58):
not that any of my clients died, but just the
the gravity to which the health situation has to be
in order to have a prayer of getting them out.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Yeah, it's it's very sad. Like I think one thing
that I come back to now, like four years issh
into a Biden administration is that like on one of
his first dexutive orders was he's going to end for
profit prisons, and he never did shit about the ice detention.
Like right from the outset there was like these people
are do not have the same right to the people,
(09:29):
and we don't care about them as.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
Much exactly exactly, and at this part well and at
this point too, it's like, given that he's done a
one eighty on anything that was pro immigrant or that
he said he was going to do. At the beginning,
you kind of start to wonder, is he just being
paid off by the same people, by a geogroup or
cor civic you know they they contribute millions of dollars
to whoever is running for president for good reason. So
(09:51):
it makes you wonder from that aspect as well.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Yeah, like it. Certainly it was in his immigration reform
built right between increase the amount of ice, tension facility beds,
rush cells or whatever how you want to put that.
Hopefully this advert that we're about to pivot to here
is not for cour Civic Audio Group, but if it is,
fuck them.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Amen.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
All right, we are back and we're going to talk
about this process advice relocating detainees. So this is something
that you've actually you've done interview about recently, right A.
Pece written about it.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Yes, Yes, I did two interviews about it, just because
it's an issue very close to my heart. For several reasons.
Detained work is very, very difficult, and just the fact
that few attorneys do it. I mean more have now
in light of the County program. But still it's it's
very emotionally draining too. You see, you literally see the
(10:53):
decline of the person in front of your eyes, both
mentally and physically, and it's just it's take.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
A lot out of you.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
So these people need and deserve representation, and like I said,
are often detained unjustly and have strong cases that they
could actually win. So basically these people deserve representation and
need it the most. I mean, they're basically the most
marginalized out of any immigrant there is. So for ICE
(11:22):
to suddenly start transferring mass transferring, I might add, represented
detainees when they never have in the past, and they
haven't their own memo from twenty twelve that says they
shouldn't do this except for exigent circumstances, you know, like
some and they describe it as some medical issue or
something severe that requires it. It's just it's pretty obvious
(11:46):
that this is just direct retaliation or just designed to
get attorneys out of O Tai, because there's been more
of them in there, and we tend to make a stink,
and we tend to we tend to ask, hey, why
haven't you given a decision on my client's requests to
be released, and what's going on here? And we tend
to send a lot of emails advocating for our clients,
(12:08):
and we tend to be pains in the asses. And
before this happened, I noticed that ICE was just not
responding at all, whereas I had some relationship with the
ICE agents that are at the detention center. Just to
back up, every client is assigned to a deportation officer,
so you technically have somebody from ICE to communicate with,
and they're supposed to be in charge of the person detained,
(12:31):
you know, whether they're released or whether the treatment like
any they're their point of contact. And so even under
the Trump years, you'd be able to yeah, you might
have to follow up, but you'd be able to communicate
with a couple of them or some of them would do,
you know. And so I noticed in the past year
or two that this ISS just been kind of this
scorched earth approach where they just won't get back to
(12:51):
you or yeah. And and they're also not responding to
requests to have people released for just months and months
and months despite attorneys asking. And so it doesn't surprise
me that the timing of this and that they would
do this. Now that I'm reflecting back on this as
well as the county program. There's more attorneys at O
(13:14):
Tai Mesa now and so I mean essentially what happens
is if the person is transferred, which they've all been
transferred to places like I think Colorado is probably the
best option, but generally like Louisiana, Mississippi, things like that.
Texas is where my clients are currently. So these are
places where you can imagine there's a not a lot
of quality immigration attorneys and b not a high chance
(13:36):
of winning your case given the nature of the judges
that are there.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Yeah, sod migrants articulate to me that they would not
want to be in the fifth circuit exactly. Come here
in the ninth circuit exactly. They're getting sent right back
to the fifth circuit there exactly.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
And that's where my clients are now. And one judge
from O Tai decided who scolded me for suggesting that
this was even by design. He told me to act
more professional. He didn't say anything to the DHS attorney
about what his client was doing. It told me to
act more professional, changed venue for that client. I was
talking about the Kenyan client. And so we're now in
El Paso and thank God he has a strong case.
(14:16):
But even then I wonder because that's it's I mean,
if it's well known amongst migrants, you can imagine how badis.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
If it's someone who knows nothing the US.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
Yes, I mean, so it's just it's ludicrous that you have,
you know, people pretending like a judges, you know, just
like this had to happen when you have you know,
seventy percent of people you know, at least that's slightly dated,
but still I don't think the percentage is that, even
if it's fifty percent, why not unrepresented people? So to
(14:47):
do this, it's just a very obvious, like fuck you.
I mean, it's just there's no other way to to
justify it.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Yeah, and like when that happened, right, so you have
this this gentleman from Kenya who's been he's been transferred
to Texas. That then you then have to travel to
Texas right for his hearings to talk to meet with him.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Yeah, so that's the whole that's the whole big battle.
And I have I have two different clients with two
different experiences. So so he I will either have to
appear via WebEx from my home. But then the judge
now has two people remotely because my client's not an
El Paso either. He's detained an Anson, Texas, which is
(15:31):
a blip about three hours away from Dallas or something.
So they and this is also by design, right, they
put all these attention centers in the middle of nowhere
because God forbid, the public sees that people seeking asylum
are in prisons. So anyways, so both of us are
going to be remote if that's the case. So, I mean,
I think there needs to be some personal contact and
(15:51):
maybe if I can have some communication with the DHS council.
I have to go to El Paso to give my
client the best chance of something, you know. Otherwise we're
both faces on this video with a fifth circuit judge,
you know. So the other flip side of the coin
was that I have another client who was transferred and
his trial is literally around the corner. It's next week.
So yeah, he was transferred four weeks before as individual hearings.
(16:13):
So I filed something scathing, saying judge, please don't consider
changing venue. This is you know, yeah, he's been detained
long enough. He's a twenty one year old by the way,
I mean, so DHS sheepishly filed something. So Council for
ICE filed something saying, okay, well we're asked, we agree
to that. We just asked that he could appear via
(16:33):
WebEx from ants in Texas. Also, right, so now he's
going to be a face on a screen. But I
can be at o tie. But still, I mean these
are all significant disadvantages. I mean, judges are evaluating immigrants
to see whether or not in their mind they're quote credible.
That means do they think they're lying or not. That's
very hard to do on a video because you're looking
for body language, you're looking for subtle things, you know.
(16:57):
And also it's just like the human aspect of it
is very important. You know, it's easier to deny asylum
to somebody on a screen that it is somebody sitting
in front of you. You know, there's so many there's
so many small aspects, and so ICE claims like, oh well,
well you just you can communicate, just fine, you know,
you can commune. We'll offer you calls and even video calls.
And I'm like, okay, you don't understand anything about being
(17:18):
an attorney and what it means to to actually represent
clients at the person's final court hearing, they are asked
to swear to the contents of not only their asylum application,
but also all evidence they filed. And so if how
on earth can you show them and sit with them
to show them the evidence in person? You know that
you can only do and person. So it's just this
(17:39):
whole concept that you can that you can even adequately
lawyer remotely or over the phone. It's it's just it's
not possible.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Yeah, and especially for people who are less, you know,
like I spent less time on Zoom than we have
in the past four years.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
Right exactly. And a lot of these people are are
are traumatized, you know, and are you like, as an attorney,
you need to build rapport with them, and you do
that by meeting with them in person, otherwise they might
not share vital information with you, you know. And and honestly,
the family of the twenty one year old mainly hired
me to be with him during his final hearing, and
(18:18):
so now I can't even do that, you know, just
to try to calm and you know, these people are petrified.
They've been through so much and now they have to
talk about all of it in front of this American
judge and a robe from a prison. Yeah, and I
have to be their only ally is not even with them.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Yeah, And like there's understandably in a little country saying
something on the phone or on a call might be
a risk, right one hundred percent. You know it takes
I'm not saying it's not a risk doing it in
this country. Like all of these things stuck up against them.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
I spend most of my time telling my clients like, hey,
what we discuss on the phone is attorney client privilege,
Like nobody could use this even if they try, and
it doesn't calm them down because it's just they think
they're being recorded, probably from their experiences in their home countries.
And frankly, I don't even know if we're being recorded.
I just know that it can't be you are it
(19:12):
can't be used, you know. I mean so, yeah, there's
so many things that go into representing somebody who's detained,
and I just knows all of this full well. So
this is a very deliberate choice, and it's something we
haven't seen before, like ever. I mean, everybody's pretty shocked
by this.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Yeah, when did it begin? Sort of?
Speaker 3 (19:31):
I want to say a couple months ago. But this
mass transfer they did that sparked us to talk to
the press and so forth was over Memorial Day weekend,
so they liked to do that too. I've noticed over
holiday weekends because last year they were trying to deport
a couple of my clients even though they had things pending,
and they try to do it over the weekend and
so on purpose, right, and so the client's families would
(19:54):
call and be like, hey, he's being printed, like processed
for being deported, and so we immediately Yeah, I had
to do this twice a year ago, so I had
to send two emails basically documenting and ceaseeing the ice
attorney being like, Hi, they have a pending X y
Z case. It is unlawful to stop what you're doing immediately.
(20:15):
But like, had we not been notified over the weekend
and sent that email, they would have been deported despite
having a kid. So this is the type of stuff
that regularly happens. But it's very ballsy to me to transfer,
Like I think it was probably like one hundred people
or hundreds or something, you know, I mean over a
Memorial Day weekend, you know. And of course, oh, their
memo by the way also says they're supposed to notify
(20:36):
the attorneys, you know. I mean I heard from frantic
family members who are like, why the fuck am I
getting a call from ants in Texas?
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (20:44):
Oh, and this is rich. You'll appreciate this. It wasn't
even one transfer. They first went to Eden, Texas, which
is another lovely place in Texas. And then a week
later we're moved to this place called blue Bonnet because
they have to give them pretty names, right, detention facility
at Antsen. Yeah, and so I had arranged a legal
call at the first attention facility and then had to
(21:06):
like do it all, do this process all over again,
and they ask you for everything but like your DNA
in order to prove that you're their attorney, you know,
to get this legal call. I mean I spent two
weeks just try to figure out where my client was.
And these are two Imagine this is sucked up like
all my time since Memorial Day. I mean there's other clients,
you know, I've I've been struggling to get to their cases.
Like thankfully I haven't had too many deadlines, but I
(21:29):
mean it's it's been brutal.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Yeah, that secks totally brutal, pointing we have the brutal
oligation to transfer to ads for a second time. So
we're going to do that and then we're going to
come back. All right, we're back. So we've heard about
(21:51):
how ice A transferring people across two different different parts
of the United States. What I wanted to talk about
now was another recent development, which was Joe Biden's executive order,
not the very recent one on parole in place. People
have seen that, but it's one quote unquote closing the border.
Can you explain, we haven't really seen that impact on
(22:14):
the ground yet, but can you explain these people are
supposed to get essentially a document forbidding them from re
entering for five years.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Correct, And it's not just any documents. Yes, it's the
worst document. So it is an expedited or moval, which
is a fancy term for a deportation order that when
issued by Border Patrol CVP, carries with it a five
year bar, and so that means you're not admissible in
any way, shape or form to the United States, and
(22:44):
if you try to re enter during that time period
or even at any time irregularly, you will then be
put in what's called withholding only proceedings, and that essentially
means you were no longer eligible for anything, not even asylum,
just a very very difficult form of asylum which is
called withholding or protection of the Convention, it's torture, which
is also very difficult to win. So that those are
(23:07):
the two things you're stuck fighting. And then you are
also mandatory attention, so there's no possibility of you getting
out unless you're in your case, which is of course
very very difficult. So I can I haven't seen this
play out, you know, like we're saying it's relatively new
and yeah, but I can imagine based on my experience
and based on what all of us know, that like,
(23:28):
people aren't gonna have any idea what this is, and
they're gonna and plus there's desperation and other fact. I mean,
they just came through the dairy end. They're not gonna
let a piece of paper stop them, you know. So
I mean, so these people are probably going to turn
around and try again and end up being in this
withholding only posture, which means they're now really screwed in
terms of having a way difficult time winning any sort
(23:50):
of relief, and definitely detained like they will not be released.
I've had clients on occasion like every blue Moon be released,
but the way I acting these days, I don't think
it'll happen. So one of the thoughts I had is
this justifying additional detention centers if we're now having going
(24:11):
to have probably more of those types of people. But
it just in general, I don't see there being a
shortage of people they can detain, So I think.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Yeah, no, I think they Yeah. I don't think that
we have an option in November to vote for a
person who isn't going to build more prisons.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
For refugees one hundred percent one hundred percent, which is
which is why. And I think that's something very you know,
it can be you can take it and be like, Okay,
I'm so depressed, you know, blah blah. There's nobody to
vote for, like, you know, because basically Biden has done,
you know, gravitated so far to the right.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
I called all the stuff that they waved it up
in twenty twenty, sod Trump will do this.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
Biden has stay exactly right, and so I don't even
know that I called him Trump light, but I don't
even know if he's Trump Light anymore. He's like more
like Trump medium or almost there, you know.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
So less racist speeches.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
Exactly, Trump minus the racist spech is exactly. So it's
just I mean, so the way to look at this
is that like literally we are their only hope. I mean,
the government here is not only like not only gonna
not save them from anything. They're in creating all these situations,
putting them in more peril. So it really behooves us
(25:19):
to find all the different grassroots organizations, and there's there's
so many of them that we can help and donate
involundar teer our time too, because that's literally all these
people have.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Yeah, so let's talk about that a bit. Because something
both you and I do as we participate in water drops,
in in migrant aid of various kinds, welcome stations of
the thing we've been doing recently. You know, you and
I were out Now I'm just going to collapses on itself,
but we were out in a place near the border.
We were there when we met the two Mauritanian dudes.
(25:50):
You carried the Chinese exactly. Yeah, Yeah, that was so beautiful, right, Yea,
it was such a wonderful, Like obviously it's pretty bleak
that the guys aren't able to use one of his
legs properly. And yeah, therefore two people who don't and
share a single word with him had to carry him.
And these two Mauritanian men we met, I'll just rewind
to tell the whole story. Yeah, we were driving down
the road and we kept meeting groups of Mauritanian refugees
(26:10):
coming north and we were able to help them by
giving them water in.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
The quick interruption. By the way, I looked up Mauritanian
and unsurprisingly they have female general emulation, child labor and
basically any like it's just horrific capital punishments.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Yeah, gay people, right, exactly. Yeah, So these people, very
very nice, just wanted mostly a bottle of water, and
you know how far tw weekend surrounded to border withtrol
which is what they intend to do. And they kept
saying that there's a guy with a broken leg and
we were like, oh shit, but that's potentially fatal in
this place that we're at. They just keep saying, go
(26:46):
down the road, you'll see him. So we keep going
down the road and we come around the corner and
there's two guys sort of eat and then a third
guy in the middle of them with his hands over
both their shoulders, right, and they're sort of humping him
down the road. And it turns out that this Chinese
man only speaking Mandarin, had he had like a brace
or like a like an external fixation on his leg,
like like bolts through his leg and couldn't walk. And
(27:10):
these dudes have been carrying him for two days and
they couldn't she speak the same language like they didn't
they weren't able to communicate, and it was the most
humane thing, and it made me just so ashamed that
like these people, in a time of desperation for themselves,
have taken the risk to help other people. And then
here's our government just being like, screw you. If you
(27:31):
don't belong here, we're going to put you straight in
prison or especially these these are mostly Muslim African men
from Mauritania right there. Generally sort of that that will
be one of the more persecuted demographics. And perhaps you
can talk about like how you got into participating in
water drops and how other people could do so, or
any any form of a direct mutual aid, I suppose
(27:53):
says like advocacy.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I mean, I think I think the
main thing to take away is the it it's easier
to help or participate then one would think, you know,
I think you look at this issue of immigration and
it's so overwhelming right now, and it can be a
bit like, oh God, you know, what can I possibly do?
(28:17):
Or you know, and even if i'm you know, what
difference am I making?
Speaker 1 (28:21):
You know?
Speaker 3 (28:21):
And it's just like I have the same struggles working
as you know, an immigration attorney, because you're just like God,
you see just the vast need and you know, you
focus on the person in front of you, you know,
and not to sound cheesy, but that's the life you
can affect. And so we're and all of us collectively
have an impact more than we know, you know. So
(28:43):
I think that's just the first thing to share. So
don't don't feel defeated and think that. Remember that if
you have twenty extra bucks a month to spare, for example,
like if you donate that to supplies for migrants, then
that literally allows the work of water dropping to continue.
And you know, that's the other side of the coin.
(29:07):
If we can go out all we want, but if
we don't have money or supplies to drop, then nothing
gets done, you know. So if you live in any
part of the country, really you can find a reputable organization,
you know, or BRC is a collective. I volunteer with
Borderlands Relief Collective and every cent goes directly to the
supplies that we drop, and that's a very huge, tangible
(29:31):
source of help. All of our supplies are consumed, as
you know, within a week or so, we think, you know.
So it's just there's so many different ways to to participate.
There's organizations that allow you to talk to detained immigrants,
you know, like Freedom for Immigrants or you know, there's
different ways you can help if you want to communicate
(29:51):
with them. There's also Detention Resistance who works with the
people mainly in No Taimesa to help just provide even
a source of support, just someone a human being to
talk to, who can help them with little things like
writing letters or putting money in their account to be
able to contact family members. I say little things, but
those things are huge because if you can imagine being
(30:14):
an immigrant in another country and you know somebody in
that and you're in a prison, but somebody in that
country or a few people are are showing you love.
I think at the end of the day, whether you're
officially deported or when asylum or whatever, those are the
things that stick with people because I know that they're
going to remember that probably for the rest of their lives.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Yeah, and I think it's the least we can need
to be welcoming with exactly exactly.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
That's why the welcome stations that we do are so
beautiful too, right, because it's just I mean what we
were doing that day when we met those two people
or the three people rather, and it's just like they
get a help a loving, helpful person as their first
exposure to the United States. And then, you know, I said,
instead of border patrol which makes them take off their
shoelaces and treats them you.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Know, yeah, like their criminals.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Yeah, and it's nice like I've exchanged for nubers with
those people and they're like, oh, you're the first American
they met. You'll always be like my first American friend,
someone said the other day. And though that was really sweet.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
It's a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful thing. I think
about that all the time with my clients. You know,
I'm just like, God, I feel so fortunate to meet
all these people, you know, from different countries. It's just
and I'm embarrassed to say that I have to usually
google where the country is, you know what I mean,
it's awful. I don't know what our geography education was,
but let's just say I didn't get much of it.
But you know, just where am I going to meet
(31:33):
people from Belize, from Kenya, from Trinidad, from Chad, you know,
and be able to really share life with them to
a certain extent or you know, I know their most
vulnerable and awful experiences. I know their family, you know,
or about their families and about them, and it's a
really beautiful thing. So it's just, you know, unfortunate. So
to have to interact with them and in a prison
(31:55):
is just you know, it's just it's just ridiculous, you know.
But so that's that why those welcome tables are I
think so just pure and precious because at that moment
there's no bullshit involved yet, there's no US government. It's
just humans interacting with humans.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Yeah, it totally is really nice. It's one of the
better things that I like to do. And yeah, if
you if you replaced where you can do it, you
should do it. If you're not, it will be great
if you get in your money. I am going to
read as we finish up a plug for the Sidewalk
School Matamortos and by Noosa. I just want to like
they are in desperate needed money right now. They do
amazing work with people on both sides of the border.
(32:31):
I've been on a panel with Felicia for UCLA that
you can find if you're good at googling things. It's
on YouTube. It's the Allied Community Arts Brigade. UCLA hosted
a panel, so if you if you search that and
Border panel, I'm sure you'll find it. And if you
want to know more about the Sidewalk School, I recommend it.
And we're joined there by people from Border Kindness and
Alo Torolado, which are both excellent organizations working on the
(32:52):
boarder here. But the Sidewalk School are working with refugees
and asigum seekers on both sides of the border in
Matamortos and Brayosa, so in Texas, and they definitely need
your money. If you would like to support them, you
can go to gofund dot me slash zero six, CDC
seventy six and we'll include that in the notes of
(33:12):
this podcast as well. Kasein, thank you so much for
your time. We really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
Thank you, James, thank you.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media.
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
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You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated
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It Could Happen Here News
Hosts And Creators
Robert Evans
Garrison Davis
James Stout
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