Roman Mars on Jaws

This is a big one, folks. Two JAWS freaks breaking down their favorite movie. Roman Mars of 99% Invisible in conversation with Chuck this week on Movie Crush.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:25):
Hey, friends, Welcome to Movie Crush. This is Charles W.
Chuck Bryant coming to you from the studio here in Atlanta,
Georgia at Pont City Market, where during the day I
am co host of Stuff You Should Know and at
night dim the lights, turn on the projector and get
Movie Crush going. This week in the studio, we have

(00:45):
Well in his studio and me in my studio. This
is a remote session, but we have Mr Roman. Mars.
Roman is the host of Invisible, which is one of
the not only greatest podcasts of all time, but one
of the greatest pieces of culture that this country has

(01:07):
to offer. I'm gonna go ahead and say that Roman
is a great guy. Uh. He is also the um,
the mastermind and head chief of Radio Topia, which is
one of the great great podcast networks out there. They
host some of my favorite shows on the web. And
I met Roman. Goodness. I met Roman through email probably

(01:28):
six or seven years ago. I met Roman before Invisible
was a thing, when Roman was producer and employee of PRX,
and he was a fan of Stuff you Should Know
and got in touch with Josh and myself and said, hey, guys,
how would you like Stuff you Should know to be
on public radio, and we said, well, we think that's

(01:49):
kind of a neat idea. Uh, And we took a
couple of calls with him and UM talked about it
quite a bit. And in between the time we talked
about getting the show going on public radio, Roman went
along and created Invisible and we never heard from him again.
Actually that's not quite true, but um, that became his

(02:12):
primary job, and then he created Radiotopia, and we clearly
knew that if we wanted to get on public radio
that we had to go a different route because Roman
was now a superstar of the medium, uh and rightfully so.
And we've been so happy for his success over the years.
He's just one of the great dudes in the world.
Super nice guy. UM, you really won't meet a better

(02:35):
person in this uh podcasting industry or entertainment industry than
Mr Roman Mars. So obviously he has his own studio
out there in California, like we said, and Uh, I
got in touch with Roman is one of my first
guests because he's a pal and we have similar sensibilities.
And Roman did not take long to pick out Jaws
is his favorite movie, and I got super excited the instant.

(02:59):
He said that because this is uh. I know we're
only a few episodes in, but this is the the
first time that even though I did love Let the
Right One In and I liked Tron Uh, Jaws I've
often called my favorite movie of all time. It sort
of vacillates between several different films. But in my blog
post that I did a few years ago where I

(03:21):
listed my top one movies and the stuff you should
know blog, I did put Jaws that week as my
favorite movie of all time. Released in nineteen obviously, directed
by a very young, UH and up and coming Steven Spielberg,
this is the movie that really put him on the map. Written.
I think he had a part in writing the screenplay,
although officially, UM, I don't see him listed as one

(03:45):
of the writers I see. Peter Benchley obviously wrote the
book that was released the year before. It was a
um sort of a smash hit Summer Beach Reader, which
is kind of ironic and captured the public's attention in
in book form first, and then Benchley and a man
and Carl Gottlieb wrote the screenplay. I have heard over

(04:06):
the years that Spielberg did right on the screenplay as well, So,
even though he's not officially listened in the credits as such,
I think he did have something to do with it.
This is back when Spielberg was writing more but at
any rate, it starts the great Roy Scheider, the great
great Richard Dreyfuss, and the great Robert Shaw. It's sort
of the three headed protagonist of this film, battling the

(04:27):
killer shark. I remember being a kid and thinking the
shark's name was Jaws. A very young child. I think
I was what would have been four or five years
old when it came out, and um, but it even
captured my attention as a kid that young. That's how
big of a pop culture phenomenon this movie was. Um. Obviously,
spoilers are going to abound, But if you haven't seen

(04:48):
Jaws by now, then God have mercy on your soul,
is all I have to say. It has been called
a horror film in some circles. In fact, on a
recent stuff you should know ten horror movies changed the genre.
We even talk about Jaws a little bit, although I
have always maintained that Jaws is an adventure film more
than anything else, even though it does have some pretty

(05:10):
terrifying elements. Um, at the end of the day. For me,
it's an adventure film and one of the great great
movies of all time. So UM, it's gonna be interesting
to talk to Roman because I've seen this movie so
many times it is weird, to be honest. Um, I've
seen this movie more times than people should probably see

(05:30):
a single movie. But I think I think Roman is
in the same boat. Uh, So it should be pretty
interesting to see how to die hard Jaws veterans, uh
think about this movie and kind of what it means,
because I know Roman watched it last night and I
watched it today, So what it means after all these
repeated viewings should be fairly interesting to see where we

(05:51):
land on that. So uh, I don't want to keep
you in suspense any longer. We're gonna get that shark
out of the water and onto the boat and coming
up in one, two or three seconds Jaws with Roman Mars.
I did see on on Facebook that you posted that
you watch Jaws last night for about the thirtieth time.

(06:16):
I did. Yeah, I was. I just wanted to um
to bone up, you know, just make sure I remembered
all the parts. And it's a it's a funny. Well,
I don't want to start now, but yeah, it's I
just wanted to. I can't go in. I'm I'm an overpreparer.
I'm just a producer at at heart. I can't help it.
So well, it's funny because I watched it. Um, I

(06:36):
watched about of it two weeks ago, because you know,
it's one of those things and probably for you too,
it's one of those movies if you're flipping it around
at night and catch it, it's hard to turn that channel.
So I watched about it and then I still watched
it today before I came in all the way through
because I realized I hadn't made notes or anything, and

(06:58):
as much as I know the movie, I was like, yeah,
I'm kind of like he was like, I should probably
scribble down some some things, just you know, since I'm
in the sort of the driver's seat here, I need
to be a pro. But before we get into Jaws,
so I kind of wanted to ask you just a
little bit about the you're kind of general movie fandom

(07:20):
growing up. Um, where are you from California? No, I
was born in New Jersey, and early part of my
life probably the first time I really went to see movies.
I was living in uh, North Carolina and South Carolina
in the South, So you moved around then, I did.

(07:41):
I moved on a lot. I didn't move to California
until I was in my mid twenties. Okay, and and
you and I both lived in Athens, Georgia. I think
we did a little bit at the same time, right,
I think. So I lived there from ninety four to
nineties seven. I was in graduate school there, Okay, I
went eight nine to nine, so we overlapped for about

(08:02):
a year. Yeah. Yeah, it's a fun place. I haven't
been back since I left. I miss it, but I
left under such dire circumstances that yeah, just you know,
like breakups and weird friendships dissolving and everything and so like,
I've been scared away for years. But I think enough

(08:22):
time has passed. Now that's been you know, almost twenty years,
I think, or over twenty years, I think, um, you know,
it's uh, I think I'm I'm safe. Yeah, I think.
I think a lot of people have had that experience
where they see the town in their rear view mirror
and you're like never coming back. But I loved it,
I really did I loved um all these aspects of it.

(08:44):
I thought, you know, in many ways, I could stay
there forever um, which is a bit of a syndrome
of people who live in Athens. Absolutely, and uh, but
I loved you know, the taco stand in the grid
and yeah, um going to the forty one. I mean,
I I loved it so much that it was it
was kind of a problem when I was in graduate
school because I was one of the graduate students who

(09:06):
like always went out and saw shows, and my friends
were you know, we're residents and not and not graduate students,
and so it always kind of pulled me in a
lot of different directions. I feel pretty sure if we
compared show notes from that we were at a lot
of the same shows, I would not doubt it. It's
totally I mean I went to I went to I

(09:29):
mean at that time, I was, you know, convinced a
that I was going to start my own record label.
Um be that I that I could not survive in
a place that didn't have at least two shows a
week that I wanted to go to. And I was
just like I was convinced. And one of the reasons

(09:49):
why I left graduate school was I had all these
friends because the you know post Stoc fellowships were so
competitive that they, you know, if they had to go
to some place some tiny town and do their post talk,
they just had to because it's like a h people
applied for it, and if they're lucky enough to get it,
they just had to take it. And I just couldn't
stand to have, you know, my life controlled by that. Yeah,

(10:13):
and I wanted to be someplace where I could you know,
like go see punk bands. I mean, it was just
like it was everything to me. And if you would
have told me I was just lame, middle aged guy
now who just like it barely can go out, you know,
like on like a good night, can barely go out
to see anybody. Would I would? I would. I would
be very shocked by it. But it was it was,

(10:33):
it was it meant everything to me. Yeah. I still
try to go to shows as much as possible, um,
and it helps when there are the venues that have
you know, uh decent starting times, you know, but some
of them there's a couple of the clubs here in
Atlanta that's still like the band's gonna go on at midnight,
and I just you know, you know how it is.

(10:54):
I can't do that. I can't do that. No. I
I do think that there's a you know, like a
designed experience where you would if if a if a
venue really wanted to be very very good for all
ranges of people and like really start on time, really
published when everyone starts, do all that stuff. You I
feel like you would you would attract a really loyal

(11:18):
clientele totally if you did that. But um, that's just
not the way that those places work. Yeah, I mean
I feel lucky if I can get start times exactly. Yeah,
you know, so there's like so now I go like
if I know, if I know someone you know, and
I feel like it's like, oh yeah, it'll be nice
to just to see that person and stuff like that.
But I don't do exploratory. You know. Here's a band

(11:39):
on a label that I like, Yeah, which was you
could go to the fort on a blurb from the
flagpole for five bucks on a Thursday night. I totally
have your mind blown. Yeah, and that I that I
miss I missed that a lot, me too. You should
get rid of these kids and move back to Athens.

(12:01):
We should just follow around funk fans around the country.
So your your movie going experience though, was largely like
where when we're your kind of early teen years is
that North Carolina early teen years would have been Ohio. Actually,
so I moved to Ohio and in the third grade,

(12:22):
and so that that would be the time when I, um,
you know, I could probably go to movies on my
own with a friend, you know, to be dropped off
see things. Um. We we had no real policy at
my house in terms of whether or not I could
watch all raged movies or whatever. I could watch whatever.
I worked my my cousin in Memphis, who I spent

(12:46):
summers with. She owned a video store, and I worked
in the video store all summer long as a sort
of unpaid teen you know, like underage employee, And so
I would watch movies all the time there and take
movies home and um and so uh but then I would,

(13:06):
you know, I would go see I mean, I don't
know if my movie tastes like all that different than
what it was when I was a teen. I just
had a lot of access to I really fell in
love with like kind of older seventies movies. Um. At
that at the period when I was going to the
video store a lot or work in the video store
a lot um and so I think of movies. I

(13:28):
don't think of movies as things in a theater. I
think of those um VHS boxes and the box art.
That's that's my if if you were to say, do
you like movies? That like, that's the picture I have,
is that rather than a movie theater. Yeah, that's funny, man,
because my grandparents and my mom are from Memphis, and
I would spend a lot of summers, not full summers,

(13:50):
in Memphis with my grandparents. So uh, I think you
and I were constantly crossing paths. It seems like over
the years, what part of Ohio they lived in Memphis Town?
What part of town Memphis? Um, they had a house
in Germantown, No Ship, Yeah, Like that's literally where I
lived in Germantown. That's so funny, what if like, well,

(14:14):
I didn't like, I didn't get out much, like you know,
when you go the grandparents house, there's a lot of
staying in. So that's kind of mainly what we did.
But we my aunt lived in Germantown and my cousin
lived with her on and off different times, and the
video store was in Germantown. They didn't move, and they
moved to mid Midtown in Memphis later on, so I
got so I got no Midtown, but yeah, it was.

(14:35):
It was all Germantown. It was crazy what part of
Ohio Central Ohio. Um, it was. Newark is kind of
outside Columbus. So it's a small, you know, industrial town,
very now very depressed. I don't I don't know what's
going on there these days. But I would go into
Columbus to have my sort of culture. But you could

(14:57):
be dropped off at Indian Mount Mall and uh and
and watch a movie and that was okay. And there
was still like a dollar theater kind of nearby my house,
like a second run theater, which is that's the if
of all you know, movie things I get nostalgic for.
It's probably the existence of second run theaters, which don't
really happen much here in the Bay Area. That's not

(15:18):
a thing, you know, like cheap theaters. Yeah, I think
they're probably is still one in Atlanta. When I grew up, though, Um,
I'm the same as you. There was one cent movie
near North Lake Mall and I think it had two
screens and we went there, uh because second run I
don't know how it's done these days, but it's not
like the second run was that far behind first run totally.

(15:42):
At Yeah, we had my um where I lived in Chicago,
uh um more when I was an adult, um there
was I lived in Logan Square and there was a
Logan Theater. It was a second run theater. We used
to call it Logan second Run and uh and it was.
It was a great place, like it's when when my
kids were born, when I lived in that apartment, and

(16:05):
so I could just I just would walk over and
I'd watch anything for like a couple of bucks just
to get out of the house, you know, yeah, because
they're they're more than a dollar now, right, yeah, I
think they were. Maybe it might have been three or something.
But it was like in this great neighborhood and you
they put out popcorn and or that you could get
popcorn and they always had hot sauce for your popcorn,

(16:25):
which a real which is a real great Latino neighborhood
sort of uh perk. And so I would get a
bag of popcorn and put a bunch of hot sauce
on it, and then you get in the theater. That's
a great place. It's funny because the theater, they remember,
they had a huge stack of pennies and it was

(16:46):
you know, they didn't round up. They would slide the
penny and your ticket stub across. And I always thought
that was kind of a nice touch that wasn't lost
on me, even as like a twelve year old. That's hilarious.
That's hilarious. So you remember your first I mean you
might as well get into Jaws. Do you remember your
the first time you saw that? I imagine it was
on VHS. It was, Um, I definitely saw Jaws on

(17:09):
VHS because I was born in seventy four, so um,
you know, it probably lasted and came back in the
theaters while I was you know, cognizant and going to movies,
and I was taking to movies that were wholly inappropriate
when I was a kid. My first movie memory is
going to see Blue Lagoon maybe as a four or
five year old. Um. And then I saw Star Trek

(17:33):
the for the motion picture, which is almost more inappropriate
for a child of that I was. I was so bored.
I just remember like being kind of into it visually,
but just being so bored. It's pretty slow movie. Yeah,
So I definitely saw Jaws and as a come in
a combination of like VHS and also UM. By the
time I was thirteen or so, I had a little

(17:57):
thirteen inch TV in my bedroom, m and I you know,
and it was on you know, cable was expanding, and
it was on TBS probably you know, like every couple
of weeks or every couple of days or something. And
it's a it's such a weirdly complex movie. I mean,

(18:18):
I mean, I don't say complex, it's more like it
has all these scenes in it that you don't remember.
Like it has it's just this richness of of scenes
and moments that when you think about Jaws, you think
about the whole last section where they're on the ocean.
There's a whole hour where they're not, you know, and
and so you would catch at different times and you're like, wow,
I don't remember this at all, you know, And I

(18:41):
feel like I saw bits and pieces of it like that,
and you know, learn to fall in love with every
aspect of it, not just you know, a dude being
chomped in half and um. And that's when I really
fell in love with it, probably more on TV than
anything else. Yeah, same here, I mean I was, um, um,

(19:01):
about three years older than you, So I was old
enough to where I remember, and it ran forever in
the movie theaters. It was back then when you know,
they would tellt like you know, four hundred days in
and stuff like that and adds, which is just crazy
to think about now. Um, But I remember it being
a pop culture phenomenon. And I remember obviously I wasn't

(19:25):
allowed to see it because I had a kind of
different deal growing up Southern Baptist. I was way sheltered,
and they my parents tried to keep me from indulging
in anything that was good and cool. Um. But uh,
I remember being you know, five years old and knowing
Jaws was a thing, seeing the book mainly on shelves,

(19:46):
and that huge, ridiculously huge shark on the book in
the poster, and uh knowing that music, and and obviously
being a little Baptist boy being very titillated by that
opening sequence of uh, the you know, shadowy naked lady. Um.
That's why when you said Blue Lagoon, I still had
a little like shiver that went up my spine because

(20:08):
that movie as a as a young boy, was like,
oh my goodness, It's like the dirtiest thing ever. Uh,
it's probably very tame looking back. I haven't seen I've
never revisited it, but my my guess is it's totally tame. Yeah,

(20:31):
so Jaws. I remember it being a thing. I remember
it being out in the news, and I remember I
remember it's scaring me to go on the ocean, even
though I hadn't even seen the movie. Yeah, I feel
like I um, I think my fear of it predated
my real exposure to it as well. I think my

(20:54):
and it was so pervasive that I was this the
same you know, when I would my one family member
who lived in Germantown had a pool, and I'd be
scared of the pool, which is insane. I had the
same experience and so just scared of water exactly, which

(21:18):
is just absurd. And so it was. It was real visceral.
I mean that that fear of nature in that way
just is is crazy and you just can't outrun it.
It's just nuts. And when we were I was talking
to my boys about watching it and how it's my
favorite movie and they know it's my favorite movie, and
they're like, when can we watch it? And I'm like,
I don't know. Never Why don't you just like, you know,

(21:42):
like I know, it's great, and maybe when you decide
that you can do it yourself and you can buy
your own when you have your own Amazon accounts, that
you can watch it. But I feel like I would
just be paying for it forever. You know, while they're
in my house. How old are they let them watch DAWs?
They're ten, twin boys or ten, that's about the age

(22:04):
Roman he might know into Jaws. I know it's is
definitely time and they're into it. But I and I
love everything about it. I mean the thing about the
movie and I figured out later on, you know, in
addition to like it, you know, like it having like
a real like, it has a real primal response in me.
I think if it is, I think if it is

(22:25):
the best horror movie almost ever made. I think it's
the best adventure movie. I think it is the best
body comedy. And it's all put together in this way
that you never get whiplash as to what moment you're
in at that moment. It's just is so it is
so well done. It makes you realize why it is fueled,

(22:46):
you know, forty years of horrible blockbusters that followed you know,
it's like I think of it as being that good
that um, your memory of of the of it is
setting the table for what a big summer movie was,
is um it really it just I find it just
transcendent and how how good it is? Well, yeah, there's

(23:09):
no and in in watching it again today and last week. UM,
as an adult, the sense of it being an adventure
movie really comes through a lot more uh than you know,
when I was a kid, it was way more just
like terrifying. Um. But even like the soundtrack in the
score from John Williams, it does have the scary bit
that everyone remembers, that iconic you know, but dump but dump,

(23:31):
But most of the score of that movie is this
very exuberant, uplifting adventure music. It totally you know, it
happens in these great moments and you just like you
have a You'll be it'll be really scary and then
it'll be like di do did do do? Do? Did
you do? You know, like and they're chasing it and
it's just like it's amazing. It's like it's like it
says it does, it's it turns on a time and

(23:55):
it's really effective. It's I I it is Um, it's
one of my favorite scores. I would never like listen
to it on its own or anything, but just as
a compliment to a movie, it does amazing things. Yeah,
and the other thing that kind of hit home to
me was how how little little I will I will say,
almost zero fat there is in the movie. It's just

(24:18):
so tight and uh and I think it still has
a running time of a couple of hours, but it
never drags. There's not a single scene And this is
why I end up watching it so much if I
if I happen to turn it on, there's not a
single scene or sequence in that movie that doesn't draw
me in totally. I think that if you want to, like,

(24:38):
if you want to study how to, you know, put
set a scene and present the densest amount of information
in the most pleasant way of beginning, where Brody is
going around the island without him really saying anything explicit,
without it seeming like exposition. There's like these snatches of

(24:58):
dialogue where everyone's kind of complaining about, you know, the
the karate class um, you know, chopping through his picket fences.
And then there's the guy who's trying to, you know,
get him to do him a favor because of real
estate or something. And then and there's all this stuff
that's happening, and they're like, you don't know the whole story.
It's like little little sections of a story, but you

(25:19):
get you get a real sense of what's going on,
and it's it's just brilliant. I I I can't, um,
I don't know how they did it all. And you
don't really see that in movies this this way, you
know that way anymore. I'm I'm I'm pretty I was
pretty amazed at it when I was looking at it

(25:41):
the most recent time. It's it's like stunning amount of exposition.
That's always interesting and uh and it really does the
job of making you understand what an amity is. I
kind of I got the same exact feeling watching it today,
is that it's um, like you said, setting up that world,
it was done in such a subtle and efficient way.

(26:03):
I feel like movies these days everything is just so
ham fisted with the setups and so obvious. Um, even
just the little part about establishing that Brody and Ellen
are have moved there from New York to uh, I mean,
it's Amity Island, but ostensibly, you know, the New England area,

(26:23):
and these days there would be some stupid long scene
where they talked about or maybe even god forbid, like
a flashback that actually shows them in New York or something,
and they and they did it all with just that
one little exchange where she talks about the accent and
you know, poking the car from the yard and that's
how we have to talk. And she said something about

(26:45):
you know, you being from New York, and that was it.
And to to a novice I or someone who's not
a big Jaws fan, it just may seem like a
little throw a line, but guys like us, we're just like,
oh man, it's just so subtle and efficient the way
that world set up everything. It's like really subtle, really
efficient everything. It's like nothing is wasted, but it never

(27:06):
feels rushed. And they're real quiet, beautiful moments that are
just stunning, Like him at the dinner table with his son.
That feels like that would be that feels like that
would be cut from a movie today. Um it there's
these um the way that the dialogue feels very real, like, um,

(27:28):
you know there's a you know, after they have a
horrible day and um and Mrs Kittner slaps Brody on
the face and he's drinking and and uh and Hooper
comes in and says, so how is your day? And
it's the funniest line, Like it's just like it's so great,
and I, um, I just I feel like there's just

(27:51):
the subtlety and real understanding of how humans are in
that movie that I just don't see and it and
I don't I don't get it. Like sometimes you could
be doing these things and not do them well and
I would be annoyed and board in a movie. Yeah,
So it's it's not like you can just put them
in willy nilly, these moments, but I just think every

(28:14):
one of them is pitched perfect. Yeah, man, I have
to address both of those things because those are that
that sequence from uh, well, the sequence from Kittner's mom
which is so upsetting because I have a big justice
thing and the injustice of Brodie being blamed for that,

(28:36):
standing right next to the mayor whose fault it really was,
and the mayor just like a coward standing there, and
of course after what he says, you know, it's not
your fault, Brodie, but uh and Brodie, Brodie says it's
his fault. And I actually think he's right, you know,
like he he owns it. You know, he could have
stood up and and he knows it, and it sort
of gives him motivation for the rest of the movie

(28:58):
about what you know, like I'm the chief of police,
you know, Like he's like, let's go cut up that shotgun.
It's like, can you do that? I'm the chief of police,
you know. You know, like that's a great line. It's
like he's finding his like he's finding his authority in
this scenario. And and I feel like, you know, like
you know, never so dramatically, but I feel like that

(29:19):
sense of his his responsibility um stayed with me. You know.
I think that's a you know, that's a great lesson
and and just life is that it doesn't matter. You
can play him all sorts of other people, but ultimately
you just take it sometimes well, because that was Brodie's
chance to be a whiny baby. It wasn't my fault,
but he owns uh. And then that scene, of course

(29:41):
leads right into the the pre dinner scene with the
son that you were talking about, and like you said,
it's I mean I timed it today too. It's a
ninety second scene um that by all accounts of these days,
like you said, would be on the editing room floor,
But it is one of my That little ninety seconds
is one of my favorite scenes in movie history. For real. Yeah,

(30:06):
I was just so sweet. It is really sweet. It
gives you a sense of who he is and his family,
and it also gives you a sense of like, now
I'm a parent, and it has one of the I
mean even before I was a parent, Like it's really
hard to understand what kids do to you when you
have them, and how much they mean to you and

(30:29):
in these weird ways like where you you you need
them to booy you up, um really really often in
the days as hard as they are and you know,
as difficult as it all is, and like I rely
on my kids in much the same way that Brody
does in that scene. And uh and then like give

(30:49):
me a kissence that's why, because I need it and
I feel like that almost every day. I know, man,
I'm right there with you. And it's funny I lift
so many lines. I'm you know, one of those obnoxious
people that goes around quoting movie lines for like half
their like half the things I say are probably from movies. Uh,
And I realized that I say so many things from Jaws,

(31:12):
and one of them is give us a kiss. I
say that to my daughter all the time. And um,
you know the scene with with Dreyfuss when he comes
in every time without fail. And my wife Emily gets
so bored with all this stuff. But every time I
go somewhere and someone opens up a bottle of wine
and pours a glass, always say, oh, you might want
to let that brief for a minute. It's just so dumb,

(31:35):
and like two percent of the people I ever say
in front of no what that's from, and the other
just think of being obnoxious. I guess. But that scene,
there's so many great lines, and that dinner scene, everything
from my husband tells me you're in Sharks to the
end of the scene, I can do anything. I'm chief
of police. Like those are just iconic movie lines. Yeah, yeah,

(31:59):
it's it's definitely full of those. So good and it
also feels real, like it doesn't feel um. They're not
overly clever, they're not delivered in a clever way. It's
totally um. It just feels natural and as funny as
it would be in that those moments and as heavy
as they would be in those moments. Well, and the

(32:19):
scene that kind of follows that is also one of
my favorites, um, which is when and and I have
to point out to by the way, the Mayor Uh
was played by Murray Hamilton's the Great Murray Hamilton's Mayor
Van who was Mr Robinson and the graduate was his
other kind of a huge film role. But um, we're

(32:40):
talking about how suddly Spielberg set up the world. Uh.
In the first time we see the Mayor, He's wearing
that sport coat with the anchors on it, and just
that little wardrobe choice was just such a nice way,
like he didn't have to say anything. You just see
that guy show up in that outfit and you know
who he is, yeahly but smile and everything. But the

(33:03):
after the wreckage scene, after Dreyfus, after Hooper does the
dive and finds the shark tooth and the head Bob's out,
they have that great scene with in front of the
billboard with the Mayor and Brody and I knew you
would appreciate this. I've always thought that Sick Vandalism would
be a great name for a punk band sick vandalism. Yeah,

(33:29):
like that's what he's upset about. Still, that's what he's
upset about. Yeah, that would be a good name. I
wonder if that has ever been taken. I don't know,
google it junk. It's it's it's time. Uh So from there,
obviously in the movie, it moves on to like everyone
has their turning point, and I think with Brody it

(33:51):
was definitely like you said, when um Kentner's mom who
slaps him in the face, that was where he turned.
But then um Mayor Vaughan had his turning point to
after that that final you know, Fourth of July when
he forced Fourth of July to happen. Well, not for
Fourth of July, but he kept the beaches open. Well,

(34:12):
let's talk a little bit about these characters. You probably
know your your Jaws trivia, but um, did you know
all the various people who originally we're supposed to play
these dudes? No, I don't. I see, I don't know
a lot of Jaws trivia. It's not something that I've
really looked up or anything like that. So yeah, it
hit me. We'll get a load of this then, Uh,

(34:32):
Chief Brody originally was supposed to be played by Robert Duval,
but he only wanted to play Glint. Oh interesting, Yeah,
I mean I think Robert Daval could probably pulled off
both those. Like I'm glad he didn't, but yeah, but
definitely he could. He could have done Brodie at that
at that age, he could have done Brodie. Well, Charlton,
he was, uh, he was the other pick for Brodie,

(34:54):
which um Spielberg apparently didn't go with him just because
he was too big for that role. With him too
big and like you could you know, it's like Cowstine
Schwardznaker and something. It's like, Okay, I know you're gonna
I know you're gonna holk out any minute. So it's
just you know, so you need someone who's who's like
who you can see his strength, but it's hidden, you know.

(35:16):
So well Schider brought such a humanity to that role
he did and you yeah. And and one of my other,
um you know, kind of favorite seven of these movies
is Marathon Man and he plays a real tough guy
in that one. And you realize that he doesn't look
all that different, but it's just how he carries himself

(35:37):
and you realize, oh yeah, he's really he's doing this perfectly,
playing in every man in Jaws, who is capable of
stuff when he when he needs to. Well, yeah, and
it was just so clever how they set up his flaws. Um,
he wasn't some tough cop like he he was scared
of he I guess couldn't swim or was it the

(35:58):
very least scared of the water. Uh, totally, which is
a great little achilles heel to throw in there. Totally.
That's so good. So Robert Shaw of course played quintuh.
And it kind of occurred to me today that we
never know what Quint's first name was, So I've always
sort of thought that was interesting. Want to wonder what
I would puts his first name? Yeah, huh, I don't

(36:21):
know what. I've never really never really considered it. He's
just Quinn. Yeah, he's a Quint. But Lee Marvin was
originally going to play Quint, and Sterling Hayden was the
other choice. Who is Sterling Hayden? Did you you saw
Dr Strangelove? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah he was General Ripper
and Dr Strange Okay, yeah yeah uh and then dry

(36:44):
Us and apparently dry Fuss and Shaw were cast like
a week before they started filming, which is crazy, but
Dryfus came in. John Boyight was Spielberg's first choice, and
then he didn't work out. And then he thought about
Timothy Bottoms or Jeff Bridges. And you know, now it's

(37:07):
like with any film once you these people have these
iconic characters, you can't imagine anyone else. But I think
a young Jeff Bridges I could see. As Matt Hooper
I could too, except for you know, Jeff Bridges is
you know, is big, and he can carry himself kind
of big, and you know, like he's and he's handsome
in a different way. And and like there's something about
the dynamic of Hooper and Quint that where there's like

(37:32):
alpha male band male sort of dynamic that is really
important to that movie to me. Um and where they
where they begin to where they trade you know, expertise
and in different ways and um and try to win
up each other. And then they come together in the
you know, in the scene with their comparing scars, and yeah,
that they you know, it's so so I totally I

(37:54):
could see I mean each of those actors. I mean
totally it could have worked, but it just it's so perfect.
The way it is, you know. Um, but maybe it's
because it's my first exposure. Like I didn't really know
any of these actors, you know, because of my age,
you know, through I mean I knew them through um
through this movie, and so um, they're completely blank to me.

(38:17):
Like maybe if I had seen Taken a Poem one
to three or um or I mean, I guess i'd
probably seen close encounters, but you know, like I didn't,
I didn't have another version of dry Fist or you know,
Robert Shaw. Yeah, so that this was the version that
I had. Well, and Hooper, as played by dry Fust
was just such a goof. Um. He wasn't afraid to

(38:41):
make dumb jokes or to be silly, and like you said,
definitely not the alpha male like his like in the
introduction of those two characters, like Quince has is probably
the most obnoxious character introduction of all time, scratching his
fingers across the chalko boyd. And then you compare that
to Hooper, who I don't know if you remember, but

(39:02):
he he steps up from the boat and he's like
looking that other guy in the chest. He's so small
it just goes hello and then goes hello yourself. And
he's just kind of goofy right off the bat. You know,
he's not trying to be cool. He's not trying to
one up anybody. He's you know, he's a shark nerd. Yeah.
And you can tell he knows stuff because the way
he uses vocabulary in the when he tells people, um,

(39:26):
you know, to do different things, because Brodie sort of
instructs him to, like, um, you know, so he knows
like when he when he says, you know, those guys
in the fantail blah blah blah, like he knows the
name of the boat like exactly, you know, like they're
never gonna get out of harbor alive. And he's like,
this is what I'm talking about. Go out there, talk
to these people. You know. Like it's so, you know,
he knows a lot, but he's not like lording it

(39:47):
over people in any certain way. He just like the
way that they use vocabulary. It is like so precise
that he's just you know, he's smart, but he doesn't
you know, but he isn't like the most dominant person
in the in the room until he it's to that
autopsy or you know, he's looking at it and he says,
don't smoke in here, thank you very much, and it's like,
this is this moment. It's like, oh man, this guy's

(40:08):
this guy's could be in charge. You know. Yeah, that
was a great scene and another great example of restraint
on the part of Spielberg to not, you know, these
days he would the first thing you would see in
that scene would be a close up shot of a
mangled body of a of a woman. And uh, I
thought that you didn't see anything at all. But there

(40:29):
is one kind of quick shot of the severed arm.
But aside from that, the terror is listening to Dryfus
very clinically describe the wounds on the body. Yeah. I
think the scariest part of the remains of the body
or when it was found and it's covered in crabs
and that that part really freaked me out. Yeah, like

(40:49):
crabs going through and needing it. Oh god, that is
that is grim. That is grim. Souh. A minute ago,
you talked about the scene, the very famous galley scene. Um,
and this is after they've had their first encounter with

(41:11):
the shark um and then they're they're drinking together and
this is when they really bond and kind of come together. Uh,
and you have the the scar comparing scene, which is
one of the great great exchanges in movies. Um, and Quinn,
you get a real sense here, like he really takes
in Hooper as his little ass, as his Gilligan to

(41:34):
his skipper at that point. You know, it's really good,
it's kind of sweet. It is, it's it is, and
it reminds me of people who I knew like that,
Like my relatives are very quaint, like in nature, you know,
they're very skeptical of people. They're very prone to stereotyping people. Um,

(41:56):
they're horrible in many many respects. The most women aren't
that now. But like there's a way that um, like
any type of personal interaction that was meaningful, you could
tell that it meant something to them and they could
put aside all the other stuff if as long as
they could, you know, pick guitars with you and it
would be you know what I mean. Like there was

(42:17):
something about the and and so that felt really nice
and real. And his story of the Indianapolis is like
I have a hard time like I love radio so much,
and um, I love the storytelling and radio it is
still like my ideal form. And I think of Quinn's

(42:40):
story as the first radio story I ever really loved.
It's like it is told just perfectly, like really, like
you could almost see it, like the story Corps music
starts and then you know, like on morning edition, and
then Quent just starts and you can remember some teenager

(43:01):
and going, oh my god, I can't believe you know,
on the other side, and it's just like it is. Um,
it is a perfectly told natural I think. I just
think it's the radio story. I would cut it out
and put on the radio and heartbeat. It's like perfect.
And it's funny because there's all this stuff, all this
great activity. You've already had the adventure music playing, you know,

(43:21):
in the barrels and shooting it and everything. But that
moment is so riveting. I love it. That's my favorite
moment in the movie, I mean one of mine for sure.
And um, the back story there for that scene was
that that was not in the book, and uh Spielberg
brought in the great screenwriter and filmmaker John Millius to

(43:42):
write that monologue, and then apparently Robert Shaw himself too,
who was a playwright, went in and and did some
rewriting on it and kind of worked with Millius on it,
and you know, just in up being like one of
the most iconic monologues in movie history for sure. All Right,
it is so good and it's so naturally moves into

(44:03):
you know, uh, you know, from one scene to the
scar comparing scene to the other, and um, and the
fact that I've I've thought about this a lot. It's
like because it gets called out because they're comparing scars
and Brody says, what's that on your arm? And it's
a it's the removal of the tattoo of the Indianapolis.

(44:24):
And and I think about that all the time, like
why would he remove it, you know, and like what
was going on in his head that he would remove it, um,
instead of keep it there. And with every part of
his character that you get in other ways, um, that
seems like this extreme moment in his life that you

(44:44):
have no knowledge of, but you just have this little
tiny peek into And I love that part of it too. Yeah,
for sure, I never really thought about that. That is
super interesting that he would and that and that's like
old sailors don't have tattoos removed, you know, Yeah, exactly,
So like the level of trauma or whatever he was

(45:04):
trying to get away from or whatever it was, like
it was clearly something that haunted him in a way,
like it was not an adventure story to him, what
happened and or maybe, you know, maybe it's just something else,
Like you don't really know. It's an incomplete narrative. But
I've tried to fill that in my head lots of times,
and I'd never come up with like what I think
is the answer. But it mainly has to do with

(45:28):
him trying to get away from it and him willingness.
His willingness to talk about it at that moment um,
I think points to how close he's gotten in this
short amount of time, but also that he senses the
peril that they're in and wants them to be really
aware of what's you know, what's about to happen, and
what's about to happen, Like happens almost immediately afterwards, like

(45:48):
they start, you know, the shark starts knocking into the boat.
Um in the next scene. So yeah, it's funny and
I never really thought about it, but it's almost like
Quint knows, this is the last time I'm going to
tell this story, you know. Um. That scene also has
another line that I obnoxiously quote that no one ever
ever gets. But a lot of times when someone will

(46:12):
toast a drink, I'll say, let's drink to our legs,
and everyone's always like, what what the hell are you
talking about? I would get to I would get it,
all right, Well, I'll toast you that wise you Um,
all right, well, I guess let's move on to the
ending of the movie. Um, you know, I didn't want

(46:32):
to go through this all piece by piece, but I
think we've done a good job of kind of covering
the main sections. But you have to talk about the
end because um, there's plenty of foreshadowing that that tank
is gonna play a part. But again, it is so
well crafted and subtly done. It never ever feels like

(46:53):
you're being hit over the head like you feel these days,
Like when you see the gun and act one it's
gonna go off in act three. You see that bank
in Act one. In the little picture, remember when hes
flipping through the book, there's a photograph of a shark
with a tank in his mouth. And then midway, uh
you here, dry Us has a line about when the

(47:13):
tanks get loose, like you know those things can blow up,
but you still don't feel like I never put the
two together. When I was first seeing that movie for
the first time, you know not at all that that's
really well done. I I mean, it's just perfect for
shattering and and and you don't exactly know well, I mean,
you think it's probably One of the things I'd like

(47:34):
is the moment when Quint realizes that they're in real
trouble and he's like, Okay, so Hooper, what is this
stuff you're gonna do? And you know, lets him try it.
And it doesn't you know, work obviously, but but um
and you think that maybe that's the payoff of it all.
You know, that's why they're reminding you of the high
tech gear. Um right, yeah, totally. It totally is used

(47:56):
somewhat differently. I think I have also, in addition to
um sharks inside of pools, I have my I have
a huge fear of compressed air. I am terrified of
compressed air. I used to when I lived in Athens
and in grad school, when I was I was leaving,
I used I used to work in the warehouses sears

(48:17):
at the mall, and uh, I'd have to move around
these big red compressed air containers for you know, people
buy them to you know, put there, you'll put air
in their John De attractors or something. And I hated
it because I just feel like they're gonna blow up
any minute, you know, which are totally not true. They're
totally fine. But I, um, I think I might be

(48:41):
because of Jawns that I have a fear compressed air too.
I hate filling my air on my tires because you
think I totally think that hate it, hate it, hate it.
That's very funny. That's very brave of you to admit this. Roman. Yeah,

(49:02):
it's a it's a it's a real problem. But I mean,
I don't love I don't love love the ending, you know, like, um,
it's so over the top as compared to the rest
of it, but it's so like it earns it, it
earned anything, like if a spaceship came down, it would
earn it to me. It's so so um, So I'm
okay with it. Um it's funny, like this time I

(49:25):
really paid attention to um. The fact that a brody
is muttering to himself his plan, you know, when when
he's about to the shot or put the thing, like
he knows what he's doing, even though it looks it's
it's like filmed, like it could have been a little
bit more accidental or just um, you know, just improvisational,

(49:47):
but he's you know, he's really you know, he he
has an idea and it's it's interesting. It's interesting to
watch it, um pay off and have it work. Yeah. Yeah, well,
I mean the true who uh terror of that movie
is like the last eight minutes, you know, and and

(50:08):
it is over the top and very famously, you know,
the shark didn't work well. The mechanical shark Bruce didn't
work well, so Spielberg had to kind of redo the story.
But initially, you know, it was it was going to
be way more of a horror movie, like a Saturday
afternoon kind of be movie style horror movie. And um,
and Spielberg admits, and everyone you know is sort of

(50:30):
agreed over the years that it was a godsend, uh
that he was forced to be a little more creative
and teasing the shark out. But I think deep down,
like he was like, all right, but I've got to
like that the quint death has to be the money shot,
and it's just so over the top and terrifying and
gory and awful. Um, it's just kind of perfect almost,

(50:52):
it is. I totally that one. That part is he's
is kind of fine to me, Like it just gives
you the idea of this is a monster, um in
in in a new way rather than just like a
it's not it's not a thing of nature at this
point anymore. It's it's a real monster. And uh. And
so that that part I like because the the you know,

(51:14):
things going down, it's kind of happens a little bit
in slow motion and um and quinns fighting to the end.
He has a machette like white below the shark's eyeball
um and uh. And it is really really great. I mean,
I think my favorite part of the ending is the
there's like a wide shot of the of the boat

(51:36):
tipped over and Brody is in the crow's nest and
at this angle, and it's just beautiful. It's just like
it is a gorgeous shot and um and and you
know he has just a little bit of time before
he's just submerged, like that is not a good place
to be terrifying shot. I just think it's um that there.

(52:00):
I think the shots in the ocean are are just gorgeous.
But that's that's my favorite, is that side. It's like
with the it's a a I don't know, maybe like
a thirty degree angle off of off of being completely submerged.
This is gorgeous. And then of course they shark dies explodes,
and then um, from underwater you see the shark coming
apart and falling away, and that that beautiful like tinkling

(52:24):
score from John Williams comes in and all of a sudden,
like this little bit of a pang for the shark
comes up somehow for me at least, where you kind
of feel bad for this thing. I just feel like, I,
you know, his his reaction is so again exuberant, you know, like,
and he's in this real struggle with this creature and

(52:46):
uh and it was very unlikely to work and so um,
so yeah, I I I guess I I do get
it a little bit, but I think I'm more I'm
very much more on brody side, and so yeah with
it that The one thing I do think all the
time is like, well, there's gonna be a bunch of
more sharks that are gonna show up because this thing

(53:08):
bleeding in the water and they need to get out
of there really fast. And always that part always makes
me nervous. It's never um, it's not hinted at at all,
or you know, or or you don't expect it to happen.
But yeah, that that I always think about that. Well,
and when they're kicking back to shore with the seagulls
is like hundreds and hundreds of seagulls. I always remember
the first time as I watched it being like kick faster, boys,

(53:29):
kick faster. Yeah, and Hooper shows up and you kind
of you it's so harrowing up to that point that
you do kind of forget about him, Yeah, legitimately, so
it doesn't feel like a weird you know, just like
a trick at the end that he comes back. Yeah,
And you know, the only problem I have with this

(53:51):
entire movie is if it were me, I would not
have shown Hooper getting away and hiding behind the rocks
when he got out of the shark gage. I would
have left it a little more like he thought he
was dead and then surprise he's not. But that maybe
have been too hokey, you know. Yeah, I don't know.
I don't know if you played either way. I do.
I think I think I needed it. I think I

(54:13):
needed it so that it didn't it didn't feel like
a weird you know, carry it, you know, right the
grave at the end of Carrey type of thing like
I do. I think I appreciate that the that the
guidance there, Yes, personally alright. So these last two segments.
One is called what Ebert said, this movie is a

(54:35):
complete disappointment. Roger Ebert my favorite film critic of all time.
I like to go back and just read a quick
little piece from his reviews. Uh. You'll be pleased to
know that Ebert gave Jaws four stars Max ratings and
ostensibly it bumbs up right. Uh, And here's this quote.

(54:55):
The screenplay by Spielberg, Benchley, and Carl Gottlieb, with contribution
by Howard Sackler and a crucial speech by Shaw, does
not twist itself into parables. The characters all have straightforward motivations,
A little dialogue goes a long way. Individual lines stand
out for hard edged terseness. The cinematography by Bill Butler

(55:17):
is it pains to tell the story in the midst
of middle class America. If Spielberg's favorite location would become
the suburbs, Jaws with suburbanites on vacation. M hm, wow,
that's good. Yeah, that's good. Uh. And then if you
have a couple more minutes, we like to finish out

(55:39):
movie Crush with five questions for Roman. Uh. And these
can just be quick answers. Uh. And this is just
a little bit about your film going history. Uh. First
movie you remember seeing in the theater? Yeah, Blue Lagoon,
that's a great one. That's I'm gonna forget that. Uh.

(55:59):
First are rated movie you saw, whether in the theater
or at home? That would be looking to right, I
guess it probably was. I mean the only one that
that I The other one I remember really early on
VHS was The Shining I saw really young and it
it really threw me off. Yeah, lord Roman, Um, who

(56:23):
are your parents? For God's sakes, they you know they
were They were working hard, had a single mom, so
she worked with little other ways and all right, So
it was it was just that was on my to
my own devices. Uh, that has this goodness bad sides.
I guess, um, will you question three? Will you walk
out of a bad movie? Uh? And if so, what

(56:43):
was the last one. I've only walked out once? I
walked out a movie called Malice, which is, um, it's
Alec Baldwin, Like, yeah, Alec Baldwin. And I just found it.
I was like it was I was in college at
Oberlin and I just I just like, I was like
every I hate everything, I hate every moment of these people,

(57:06):
and I just I had to get out of there.
I just felt gross. So I left. H O Berlin. Man,
I I know, like you're like the fourth person I
know from Oberlin. It's a good place, all right. So
number four, do you have a movie you can think
of that is a guilty pleasure movie for you? Yeah?

(57:26):
I don't know. I don't. I feel like I work
so much. I have so few pleasures that that I
can't about them. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think if
you were to say, like, is there a movie I like,
that's probably uncharacteristic. Uncharacteristic for a person who's like a
forty two year old man to like, um, like, I
really appreciate the movie Bring It On. It's really well made.

(57:49):
I mean I think that I saw that a couple
of times and I was like, that's a well made movie.
And then Pitch Perfect, which is exactly the same movie,
and you could you could watch them so by side,
and I think the story beats happen exactly the same.
Um there, I mean they're they're exactly the same, just
like the details are changed and um. And so I

(58:10):
appreciate those two movies. Yeah, you know, Like my weird
thing with movies is sometimes I don't watch my favorite
movies very often. I tend to watch movies I kind
of like, um more often like they're unchallenging that I
put on. So like my one for this for a
long time was Gross point blank, which is not a movie.

(58:30):
It's not a movie I think is all that good.
And I think that part of my mind is trying
to resolve the things I like about it and how
I would improve it or something like there's something about
there's a puzzle to it. So I sometimes watch movies
that are not my favorite movies over and over again,
which it seems like a ridiculous waste of time. I

(58:53):
like that. That's interesting. Uh. And the final question here,
um sort of a movie going one oh one with
Roman Marsh do you what's your what's your movie ritual?
I know you don't get out much, but when you
do go out to a movie, is there do you
have a preferred seat. Do you get the same thing
at the concession stand every time? Do you have any
rituals I do. I tend to go early. Um, when

(59:14):
I'm by myself, I'll i'll I'll go early, and I'll
bring something to read. And I like to go to
movies by myself or with my my two kids. And
so I am not like I like, I love, I
do things by myself all the time. I like, I
liked being you know, some movies are one of those
things I actually kind of like to do alone because

(59:34):
I'm not one of those people that likes to like
during the credits, like turn to someone and say, so,
what do you think? You know, I'm not that guy,
That's what I think. So I like to just kind
of live in it. So that would be my ritual.
And I'm kind of like a center. I'm a center,
a little more forward than you know, to the front.
And most people tend to like like i'd like the
first row of the second you know, you know, tear

(59:56):
of um. And because I also like to get you know,
be able to get out like I don't know and um,
and you know, i'd like to go early and I
can't be late and all that sort of stuff, like
I don't like to rush, So those would be my
general rituals. And and then the tendency to go alone
like a movie is like not something to me that
I'd like the collective energy of of a room for

(01:00:19):
something like horror movie like get Out or or a comedy.
But I don't need like personal friends to be with me.
You love to be surrounded by strangers and share and
experience with people you don't know exactly. I love it. Yeah,
all right, well thanks man, my pleasure. I appreciate it.
It's been a good one. Oh. Thanks, that's so so nice.

(01:00:43):
I like talking to you about this stuff. So yeah,
and you're thinking, of course everyone check out Ncent Invisible
and um, what's it called what Trump can teach us
about con law? Yep, that's too, and just the whole
Radio Topia network. You're pick a show and that's going
to be great. I guarantee it. Yeah, me too, I
guarantee you. All right, Thanks Roman, thank you, chalk I appreciation. Wow,

(01:01:14):
So that was just wonderful. Uh, what a great chat
with Roman Mars about Jaws. Um, I think it was
pretty clear that both of us are just super fans
of that movie. Um, so that was a lot of
fun for me. Um. I felt like, jeez, we probably
could have We probably could have sit down for three
hours and broken that movie apart piece by piece and

(01:01:35):
and really walked out on it. So, UM, I hope
we didn't do that too much? Are you non Jaws fanatics?
But um, that was a lot of fun for me.
And it seemed like Roman had a good time. Uh.
And in his case, it seemed like, UM, we'll chalk
this one up to general artistry. It seems like his
appreciation for Jaws very much was about just how well

(01:01:57):
crafted the movie was, in the direct and editing and
the music and the pacing acting. Uh. He seemed to
really really be interested in just what a what a
fine example of filmmaking that Jaws was. So it wasn't
really nostalgia or um have anything personal for him. He's
not an ichthyologist as far as I know. Um, it

(01:02:20):
was interesting to hear about his fear of compressed air.
Never heard that one. I don't know if there's a
real phobia. Maybe we could call it roma phobia or something.
We could make it up. But um, good dude, great talk.
And I hope we illuminated a little bit for you
Jaws fans out there, a little bit more about the movie.

(01:02:40):
I just had a lot of fun with that one.
So we'll see you next time, and until then, would
kill you to share some eminem's. You guys, have a
good week. Movie Crushes, produced, edited, engineered, and scored by
Noel Brown from our podcast studio at Pond City Market, Atlanta, Georgia.