April 6, 2025 • 38 mins
Are extroverts happier than introverts? Is coffee bad for an introvert's brain? And does your personality type make you more likely to be arrested? (Spoiler: it does!) Will and Mango take a closer look at the secret talents lurking inside your friendly neighborhood introvert.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Guess what will?
Speaker 2 (00:03):
What's that mango?
Speaker 1 (00:04):
So you know how there are names of groups of animals,
like I think a group of crows is a murder
of crows, or if you have a group of rhinoceros,
it's called a crash, not a squad, which you know,
I guess Taylor Swift or my son would call them.
It's a crash.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Just one more similarity between Taylor Swift and your son.
You forgot a couple of my favorites though. I've always
loved smack of jellyfish, and then of course a business
of ferrets, which I don't know why, but that's my favorite.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
I think it is pretty great. So I found this
video online called how to Care for Your Introvert, which
claims that a pair of introverts is actually called an
awkward and a group of introverts is what you call
an angst.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Is this real?
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Of course not, but the whole video is joking and fun,
and it points out that introverts are rarely found together
in the wild. So these are mostly theoretical terms anyway.
But as you know, I'm definitely an introvert, and when
I was in high school I almost used to bristle
at this phrase like all great figures and history or
seen as charismatic and big characters. And I figured, you know,
I could be fun at a party, I have friends,
(01:05):
I do things, so I figured there was no way
I should be lumped in with the introverts. But then
in college I quickly realized I am such an introvert,
especially when I compare myself to my wife, who just
crams in so many things into her social calendar. Yeah,
it doesn't make any sense to me. But you know,
this whole thing has made me wonder what does being
an introvert really mean? Like do you have to be
(01:26):
strictly an introvert or an extrovert? Or is there a spectrum?
Do our brains actually behave differently? And is it okay
for me to hit the closed door button on an
elevator when someone's trying to catch a ride with me,
Because I would really love a scientific excuse to say
that's all right.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Yeah, let's dive in.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Hey, their podcast listeners, welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm
Will Pearson, and as always I'm joined by my good
friend mangesh Hot Ticketerter and on the other side of
the soundproof glass sporting yet another one of his classic
t shirts. This one just says Introvert Social Club. Why
go big when you can go home? This is one
(02:24):
of my favorites of his. But that's our friend and
producer Tristan McNeil, and I've got to say, for an
introverted guy, he definitely speaks volumes with his shirts. Mang,
wouldn't you agree?
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Definitely?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Well, you know, one thing I realized while doing the
research for today's show is that introverts can be pretty
tough to pin down in terms of personality. And you know,
most of us hear the term, we immediately think of
traits like sensitivity or introspection or maybe quietness. I mean,
but the truth is, none of those things are guaranteed
signs of introversion. And that's because introversion is definitely a
(02:57):
spectrum rather than being this one set way of being.
So with that distinction in mind, I thought we could
use this episode as a way to kind of set
the record straight on what's probably one of the more
misunderstood aspects of human personality. So we're going to look
at the science behind introversion as well as how our
society tends to view introverted people and we'll also run
(03:18):
through some of the pros and cons to really see
how introverts stack up against their more outgoing counterparts.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
And to kick things off, I thought we could talk
a little bit about what introversion is and also what
it isn't. So to start from the beginning, the terms
introvert and extrovert were first coined by Carl Jung way
back in nineteen twenty one. He used them mainly as
a way to distinguish between two prevalent types of personality,
those who feel more connected to their inward thoughts and
feelings and those who focus primarily on the external world.
(03:47):
And really, that was it, like, There was no stigma,
no rank attached to one or another. You know. It
wasn't like my wife who tells me you introverts think
you're so special, right, These were just two different, equally
valid ways of experiencing and the world. Yeah, And in
the years since then, other researchers have expanded on Jung's ideas.
Of course, there's no catch all definition for the term,
(04:08):
but there are at least a few things we can
say about introverts in general. For example, introverts tend to
be good listeners who think before they speak, they enjoy
time alone. They usually need less stimulation than extroverts when
it comes to entertainment, and while they typically tire of
small talk quickly, they can talk your ear off when
they're given the chance to dig into a topic they
really care about, you know. And I think this was
(04:29):
something that I've really thought about in the past week
or so as we've been working on this topic. And
that's the fact that no one is really one hundred
percent introverted or one hundred percent extroverted, other than my
ninety one year old mamma. I think she's pretty close
to one hundred percent extrovert. Such an extrovert, she's.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Definitely an extrovert. But but we're all really more of
a mix of both personality types. And I've actually realized
that about the two of us. If people were looking
at the two of us, most people would say, you're
an introvert and I'm an extrovert. But really, as we've
been doing the research, you kind of realize there is
this very real mix. It's just that most of us
lean harder one way than the.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Other, definitely, and that's why you'll find like a quiet
classmate or a coworker can actually be a really engaging
public speaker, and that's because of this big cultural and
misconception that all introverts are incredibly shy people who can
never get up in front of an audience without cracking
under the pressure. But in reality, introversion is a completely
different thing than shyness. So I'm not sure if you
(05:27):
remember that groundbreaking book on introverts. It was written by
Susan Kine. It's called Quiet. It came out about Yeah,
it came out about five or six years ago, and
it's full of really insightful takes on introversion. And one
of the things Susan covers is that shyness and being
an introvert are driven by completely different forces. So listen
to how she explains it. Quote, Shyness is the fear
(05:49):
of social disapproval or humiliation, while introversion is a preference
for environments that are not over stimulating. Shyness is inherently painful,
introversion is not.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
I mean, I think that's such an interesting quote from that,
because those are definitely two words that I think people
have just assumed kind of meant the same thing. But
so think a little bit more about it. So shyness
is more of a reaction than a way of being,
And so as a result, you could even have an
extrovert who might really enjoy being around crowds but actually
(06:21):
is deathly afraid of being in the spotlight themselves.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Absolutely, and in the same way, it's possible to have
an introvert who's also shy. Since shyness is a learned behavior,
an introvert could develop a fear of social situations because
they've been made to feel like they don't measure up
to extroverts. So it could actually be this I guess,
the self fulfilling prophecy.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
M hmm. Well, and there's that same kind of misconception
about social anxiety. I mean, a lot of people would
assume that that condition goes hand in hand with introversion,
but it doesn't necessarily. I mean, social anxiety is similar
to shyness, and that it's largely learned behavior, but anxiety
also tends to run in family is without question a
(07:01):
very real genetic link there as well. It's just, you know,
a more extreme form of self consciousness than either shyness
or introversion. And just trying to think of an example
of this, I mean, somebody with social anxiety might feel
totally incapable in a social situation. You know, maybe they
tell themselves they don't have anything to contribute, or that
people will ignore or misunderstand them, so why bother even
(07:24):
saying anything. But I mean, that's generally not the case
with introverts. In fact, many of them are pretty adept
at kind of you know, you might say, turning on
their social skills when they need to.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
All right, well, now that we know some of the
things that introversion is not, we should talk about what
it actually is. And like you allude to at the
top of the show, that's kind of easier said than done,
because most popular definitions fail to capture the range of
ways that introversion manifests in people like we tend to
view introversion as opposite to extroversion. So if an extroverts outspoken,
(07:55):
then an introvert is tight liped. This is kind of
a dumbing down of distinctions, and it's really nothing new.
But thankfully there's been a lot more research on the subject,
and that includes the work of a psychology professor at
Wellesley College named Jonathan Cheek. So a few years back,
he surveyed a group of five hundred adults, and he
asked them everything from how often they daydream, how important
(08:16):
they consider solitude for their well being, all sorts of
questions like this, and then Cheek used their responses to
help develop what he called the star chart. But you
know you don't have to worry about this, well, I
know you've got a version of astrology. This has nothing
to do with where mercury is rising and star. It's
actually a breakdown of what Cheek considers the four types
(08:36):
of introversion. So it's social thinking, anxious, and restraint.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Even better, so we've got an acronym, and you know
I love a good acronym, So I now I feel
like you deserve the chance to kind of give us
a rundown of what falls in each of those those
four categories.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Sure, so the S is social introversion, and this is
probably what a lot of people would think of when
they're asked to describe introverts, right, Like, it's basically a
preference for small groups over large ones, for more solitary activities,
you know, think about things like reading a book or
watching a movie. Thinking introversion, which is the tea that's
a little different Introverts with this type don't mind like
(09:14):
big social events or these highly stimulating environments, and that's
mainly because they're really connected to their interior world.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
You know.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
All that commotion around them is really drowned out by
all the introspection that they go through in self reflection
that occupies their minds.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Yeah, so these are people. I mean, it kind of
makes me think of the phrase where we talk about
people being in their own little world.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
I guess, yeah, exactly. And the example I read try
to lay it out in Harry Potter terms, which is
of course very much appreciated. And in that case, the
socially awkward level would be a social introvert, while a
thinking introvert would be someone more like Luna Lovegood, you know,
who's sort of dreamily creative.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Right, that makes sense. I feel like everything makes more
sense when you can explain it in Harry Potter terms.
So definitely we'll try to do that with all future episodes.
But all right, so that's the S and the T.
So how about the A and the R.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Right, So next up is anxious introversion. As you might
guess from the name, this refers to introverts who have
also some form of social anxiety, and it's characterized by
a tendency to kind of overthink things and also to
dwell on your mistakes or perceived mistakes for well after
the fact. I mean, it really is, it can be crippling.
And lastly, there's the R and star, which refers to
(10:28):
restrained or reserved, and these are people who take a
little while to get going. So instead of diving straight
into a conversation, a restrained introvert might you know, hear
what everyone has to say, really take their time to
absorb and think on it and then offer their own thoughts.
So pretty much they're the think first, act later people
in the world.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Okay, that makes sense, And I feel like this four
way system definitely covers more ground than just the one
blanket term. But I have to also think that, you know,
there's an awful lot of overlap between the different types,
Like I can imagine somebody being a part thinking introvert
and part restrained introvert or some other combination of.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
These four definitely, and when she came up with this model,
he really wanted to expand the definition of introvert, not
just replace it with these four strict types. So according
to him, plenty of introverts. There are actually a mix
of all four types.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
All right, well, I'd say we have a pretty good
grasp on what goes into being an introvert. So why
don't we switch gears a little bit and talk about
the science of introversion. Because it isn't by chance that
introverts and extroverts think differently. I mean their brains are
actually different. For example, if you look at brain scans
of the two different types of brains, you'd see a
thicker prefrontal cortex in introverts when you compare them to extroverts.
(11:40):
And since that part of the brain is connected with
things like deep thought and planning, that bigger cortex might
actually explain why introverts tend to be less impulsive than extroverts. Now,
instead of processing new information directly, these introverts first run
it through the neural pathway that deals with planning and
long term MIMI. And so this is why introverts might
(12:02):
actually take longer to make a decision or former response,
because they're comparing old and new experiences and even weighing
the potential outcomes while they moul things over, and so
this can slow the thinking process down a pretty good
bit actually, But it also results in these carefully thought
out responses and choices, and that's not something that you
(12:23):
always get with extroverts.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Which is interesting. You know, I hadn't heard about that
bigger cortex this thing, but now I feel like I'm
going to brag to everyone about how large my cortex
probably is.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
I knew that that was coming. I know you're gonna
be bragging about this NonStop.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
So Actually, the differences between introverted and extroverted brains that
I've always heard about is the way we respond to dopamine. Yeah,
and you know we've talked about this before. Dopamine is
one of the neurotransmitters that's closely tied to our sensation
of pleasure, especially when it comes to seeking rewards or
taking risks, and dopamine has similar effects on introverts and
extroverts alike. When it hits your brain, you feel more alert,
(12:59):
you might be more talkative, more motivated to take chances,
and in fact, introverts and extroverts even have the same
amount of dopamine in their bodies. The difference is that
dopamine triggers the reward network much more strongly in the
brains of extroverts. So take something like earning a promotion
at work that would likely generate excitement in both kinds
of people, right, but the extrovert would feel that excitement
(13:21):
to a much greater degree than the introvert, which I.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Don't know, when you think about it, feels like kind
of a raw deal for the introverse. If it feels
like they're getting jipped on the whole dopamine thing, I guess.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Well, don't feel too bad just yet, because there's actually
another transmitter, as a newer transmitter called acetylchline, and it's
also associated with pleasure, but this one is the go
to choice for introverts looking to unwind, and unlike dopamine,
acetyl coline generates these happy feelings for more inward focused activities,
so like thinking deeply about something or concentrating on one
(13:54):
thing for an extended period. And the chemical is tied
to the parasympathetic side of the nervous system, which is
nicknamed the throttle down or the rest and digest side.
So if Netflix and Chill is actually your past time
a choice, you can thank a seedtle colin for that.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
All right, Well, since we're getting into the comparisons between
introverts and extroverts. I feel like we should go through
our list of pros and cons and see how the
two ways of being kind of stack up against one another.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yeah, it sounds fun to me. But first, let's take
a quick break.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
If you're listening to part Time Genius and we're talking
about the not so subtle differences between introverts and extroverts,
All right, mego. So the first introvert advantage that I
want to talk about is their nack for being able
to read people. Because when it comes to judging how
another person will think, or feel or act, we show
that introverts make better inferences than you know, extroverts, and
(15:03):
that's almost every single time. And we do know this
thanks to a study from a team of psychologists at Yale,
because they were asking more than one thousand participants about
how the average person would react in different social situations. So,
for example, this one comes straight from the test, and
here's the question. It's quote, people are usually overly confident
(15:24):
in the accuracy of their judgments true or false.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
I mean, I have to say true on that, but
I also feel like I might be being overconfident in you.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Of course, but actually you got the correct answer on
this one. But anyway, after the survey, the researchers rounded
up the highest scoring participants and then they ran a
series of psychological tests, and they did this to determine
which personality traits these people had in common. Now, it's
not surprising that the respondents who made the most accurate
judgments were more likely to be intelligent and interested in
(15:59):
problem solving than those who scored poorly. But the more
surprising finding was that these same people were also more introverted.
And as one of the studies authors explains, quote, it
could be that the introverted people are spending more time
observing human nature than those who are busy interacting with others,
or they are more accurate in introspection because they have
(16:21):
fewer motivational biases. They don't view the world through rose
colored glasses as jovial and extroverted people do.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Well, I mean that does track with what we were
saying about introverts and how they have a tendency to
think carefully and be more observant of their surroundings.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
That's true, but I don't want to get accused of
serious bias here, so I should point out that there
was a drawback to the introverts perception powers in this
same study, because along with that intelligence and curiosity, those
highest scoring participants also reported being more lonely and maybe
having lower self esteem than their more extroverted counterparts. So
(16:58):
it's not really an across the board win for either
one of these groups.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Yeah, and those kind of trade offs kind of pop
up a lot when you compare introverts and extroverts, And
I mean, it makes sense from an evolutionary perspective that
both types of people would excel and also lag in
different ways. You know, if one way of being was
decidedly better than the other, it feels like we still
wouldn't have both types of people in the world. And
if you think about how these different traits might have
(17:24):
emerged in the first place, it's easy to see their
respective evolutionary advantages. Like if you took like prehistoric introverts,
they likely would have stuck close to the cave and
avoided predators, which would have increased their chances of not
being eaten. And on the other hand, like the extroverted
cavemen would have wandered far and wide and they would
have had the instincts to look for new types of
(17:45):
food and shelter and all of that when shelter was
in short supply.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
And that's a good point. I'd not really thought about
that way. But I mean, what would you make of
the idea that introverts tend to be more melancholic? I mean,
I know, I've heard before that extroverts are happier people
overall when they're measured against introverts, and that study, for
Meal does seem to lend some credence to that theory.
So I'm curious what your thoughts are on that.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Yeah. So I've actually seen those studies before too, and
they're usually center on that dopamine reaction that we talked
about earlier. And the truth is, happiness levels are pretty
evenly matched between introverts and extroverts when it comes I
guess to like inwardly focused activities, you know, watching TV,
listening to music, reading a book. But the real disparity
arises when you look at happiness levels during social activities
(18:31):
and the ones where some kind of reward is at stake,
and in those cases, extroverts really have the advantage. But
you know, according to Susan Kine, this is more about
how we define happiness than it is about who's objectively happier.
For example, in Western culture is like our own, we
have a habit of viewing happiness as an active state.
It's sort of this explosive enthusiasm and excitement and giddiness.
(18:55):
And you know that's not the case for Eastern cultures,
where happiness is seen as something more passive of its
contentment and peacefulness and almost this feeling of being present
and focused in the moment. So Kin actually has a
quote on this. She says, when introverts talk about the
things that they most love to do, it's very often
activities like reading, hiking, cycling, being with their spouses, being
(19:17):
with their children. It's a quieter type of contentment that
often fuels introverts and that we don't pay proper attention to.
But speaking of proper attention, you know that might be
another reason that extroverts report such higher levels of happiness,
because they're less introspective, and because of that, they also
tend to overlook drawbacks and great experiences on a curve. So,
for example, an extrovert might say that they had a
(19:39):
great time at a party and not even mention things
like there wasn't enough food to go around, or that
the sound system kept going out. But I guess I
feel like you're.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Using specific examples from things.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
These are things that happened at a party a one too.
But yeah, you know, an introvert would likely notice all
these little details and you know, have a better sy
of how it impacted everyone's overall experience. But you know,
in the end, it could be that the introverts are
more inclined to give this less rosy and potentially more
accurate assessment of how happy they really are.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
I mean, I think that's probably true, But I mean,
back to what we were saying about those trade offs,
and to be fair, there are costs to being an
extrovert as well. I mean, we mentioned that extroverts have
this pensiont for risk taking, and so as you might expect,
that tendency can backfire in some pretty damaging ways. I mean,
as an example, extroverts are more likely to be hospitalized
(20:32):
for an accident or for an illness than introverts are,
and they're more likely to develop criminal behaviors. They're more
likely to get arrested too.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Like all of these things are true, that can't be true.
I mean, they're more likely to be arrested.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Yeah, this is why I'm trying to claim that I'm
not as much of an extrovert as I once thought
that I was. I mean, but I guess it makes
sense if you're impulsive instead of a planner. But this
does come from the journal Comprehensive Psychiatry, and this was
from recent search conducted at Johns Hopkins and at the
Bloomberg School of Public Health. So Mango, that sounds about
as legit as it gets.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Yeah, it's so bizarre, but you know what, we've been
focusing on differences. I do want to make sure that
we mentioned some of the similarities between introverts and extroverts,
and this is a pretty unexpected one. So you know
how introverts need time alone to kind of recharge their
batteries after a social outing. Yeah, I feel like this
is always the definition I've always used for introversion. And
(21:27):
obviously these people can turn on their extroverted behavior for
a while, but they eventually start to feel drained and
just want to go home and relax. But it turns
out that too much socializing can actually be exhausting for everyone,
even extroverts. So a couple of years ago. This finished
research team found that the more people were acting extroverted,
the more they reported being in a positive mood and
(21:48):
feeling unfatigued in the moment. However, after three hours of socializing,
people report these higher levels of fatigue, and this was
true for both introverts and extroverts.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Yeah. I mean, but three hours of intent socializing. That
just sounds exhausting. Like, I don't know who wouldn't be
tired by that? But Clinton, I think you're probably right.
But I mean, it is interesting that acting introverted netted
the same positive mood boost for both the introverts and
the extroverts, at least, you know, for a little while.
And I guess it goes to show that humans really
(22:19):
are social animals, just to differing degrees, I guess.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Yeah, I mean, that's probably a safe bet. But before
we move on, I want to point out that not
all people lean towards extroversion or introversion. There's actually a
third kind of person called an ambivert, and these are
the people who follow right smack in the middle of
the spectrum, and it's actually way more common than I
would have expected. I thought these were like unicorns, but
In fact, according to one study, ambiverts make up about
(22:44):
thirty eight percent of the population at any given time.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
It's kind of a weird word, though, don't you think
like you called an ambivert?
Speaker 1 (22:52):
But uh, it's really an insult.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
I mean, I am curious that, like, where do ambiverts
land in terms of the kinds of advantages that we've
been talking about.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
So the thing is that fewer studies have been commissioned
on amiverts is partially because scientists love studying the extremes.
But there was a management expert named Adam Grant who
conducted a study back in twenty thirteen. He surveyed three
hundred and forty call center employees and found that two
thirds of them considered themselves neither introverted nor extroverted. And
(23:21):
while you might think the extroverts would have this clear
advantage when it came to talking on the phone for
a living, Grant actually found that it was the ambiverts
who closed most of the sales.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
And do we know why?
Speaker 1 (23:32):
That is not entirely but Grant's theories that ambiverts are
just better suited for both aspects of a sales call.
You know, they could do the talking, they could also
do the listening, and as he explained, ambiverts are quote
likely to express the servedness and enthusiasm to persuade and
close the sale, but are more inclined to listen and
(23:53):
also are less vulnerable to appearing too excited or overconfident.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
And I guess it makes a lot of sense when
you think about it. But I'm glad you've broached this
subject of job proficiency though, because one thing that I
was looking into this week is how introverts are faring
intoday's job market. I mean, it's not surprising that they've
had a rough go of things in the past, both
in terms of business and in society as a whole.
But I was really trying to get a sense of
(24:18):
whether things have gotten any easier for introverts in the
information age.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Yeah. I mean, you think about that Moneyball example, where
people who ran funny or didn't look handsome enough were
considered less exciting prospects and then less valued, and you
can see how that might apply similarly to quiet employees.
But let's take another quick break and then dive back in. Okay, Well,
(24:54):
so I know you wanted to talk about how society
views introverts, and I think I have the perfect Susan
Kane quote to set the stage. You know, at the
beginning of her book Quiet, she writes, quote, today we
make room for a remarkably narrow range of personality styles.
We're told that to be great is to be bold,
to be happy is to be sociable. We see ourselves
as a nation of extroverts, which means that we have
(25:16):
lost sight of who we really are. Depending on which
study you consult, one third to one half of Americans
or introverts. In other words, one out of every two
or three people. You know, if you are not an
introvert yourself, you're surely raising, managing, married to, or coupled
with one.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Yeah, I mean, that's got to be true. And it's
clear that our country has a strong bias toward extroversion.
And actually this is something Kane experienced firsthand. I mean,
she was an attorney and a negotiator before she ever
decided to get into writing, and she experienced this all
through her career. Kane says she felt ashamed of being
an introvert, and not only did she come to view
(25:55):
her quietness and reserve as somewhat of her professional disadvantage.
She even considered it a behavioral defect, I mean, something
to correct or overcome, which is really unfortunate to think about.
And really it's no wonder she felt this way because
most schools and businesses, they're pressuring us all our lives
to be more extroverted and to get out of our
(26:17):
heads and complete work in groups and complete you know,
things as a team. So it's not surprising that people
would think this way.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Yeah, I mean, I hadn't thought about this before, but
most of our institutions are clearly set to cater to
extroverts and the kinds of stimulation they enjoy. Like if
you think about brainstorming meetings where the most upbeat person
in the office stands at a whiteboard and kind of
coaxes ideas out of everyone be there's at least forty
years of research that says individuals brainstorming on their own
(26:44):
come up with better ideas than groups do. But most
businesses have missed that memo.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
You know, I feel like Mango, this is one of
those episodes where every time you're mentioning things, I'm like,
you've got somebody specific in mind. I know it, but anyway,
but you think about that group think mentality that it's
become the standard in most US schools as well. I mean,
you know, the idea that these off the cuff interactions
will produce these new or creative ideas, and that is
(27:11):
probably true in some cases, but that approach definitely discounts
the creativity that comes with being in solitude sometimes.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Yeah, I mean it's a shame too, because you don't
want kids to think their natural inclinations are invalid. Like
sometimes you see the parents of preschool or elementary age
students making apologies for their children's introversion, you know, like
I'm sorry he's so quiet or something like that. I've
been guilty of this in the past, and so many
of these kids grow up making the same apologies for themselves,
(27:40):
as if their innate personalities or something they should apologize for.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Yeah, it's true, but you know, thanks to the work
of Susan Kin and of course others, we've been thinking
about this and our society has been showing introverts I think,
a lot more empathy in recent years. And you know,
from shirts like the one Tristan's rocking and rocking so
well today rocking is so hard, Oh man, you think
about the countless listicals and introvert quizzes that we're all
(28:05):
bombarded with, and being an introvert in America is now
more accepted than any other time in history. In fact,
one nice side effect of the culture becoming more accepting
of introversion is that it opens up these new career
opportunities for introverts. And in fact, have you heard this
podcast that's called Hiding in the Bathroom. I have not,
so it's hosted by an introverted blogger turned podcaster named
(28:28):
maraa Aaron's Meal, and it's basically an ongoing rebuttal to
the idea that introversion is always a weakness and extraversion
is always a strength.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Which is so weird an introvert podcaster. I feel like,
who would have heard of such a thing?
Speaker 2 (28:43):
I mean, that can't even be possible, can it?
Speaker 1 (28:45):
I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Well, it makes perfect sense that introverts might thrive in
a field like that. I mean, after all, podcasts walk
that line between private and public. I guess yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
And I mean it's the same thing we touched on
earlier about how some introverts actually make great public speakers
because they enjoyed the opportunity to dig in and really
think about these topics and death, which is you know
why everyone should actually listen to Susan Kan's Ted Talk,
because it's really really wonderful.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Yeah, Well, the Internet has also been a boon for introverts.
I mean, you get to actively engage with so many
different people, all from this relative comfort and safety of
your own home. What's interesting is that introverts are finding
new career opportunities away from their screens too. This is
according to Smithsonian, introverts are in high demand on Mars,
(29:32):
or at least on these NASA missions to Mars because,
according to a twenty fourteen report, researchers now believe that
extroverts could be a quote liability on long term space mission.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Is that just because they're afraid there'd be too many
criminals in the.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Midda yeah, way too many criminals now, I mean it's
it's really because we're talking about pinning up these talkative,
highly outgoing people and these isolated environments for years on end.
So I mean, not only would these extroverted team members
everybody else crazy on board, but they'd also have to
contend with living in an environment that really gives them
very little room for new activities or social interactions, so
(30:09):
you could see how it could be pretty tough for them.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Yeah. I mean, my daughter is a total extrovert too,
And before we put her in preschool, when she was
just at home, we thought she was like a husky
without work. She was just going around being destructed, couldn't
figure out what to do with herself. And then you
put her in school and she's interacting with kids, and
suddenly she's just totally happy.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yeah, you were definitely surrounded by extroverts in your life,
but you know, you think about the goal is to
find the right balance here and that sweet spot where
introverts and extroverts kind of even each other out to
create this compatible and functioning team.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
Yeah, that feels like what we should be striving for
in general. But you know, at the risk of going
full cornball here, I did want to share some advice
that Susan Kane put together for the introverts out there.
It's called the Quiet Revolution Manifesto, and she has ten
tips for everyone who is introverted, and I thought i'd
just share it here. Great, So this is how it goes. One.
(31:07):
There's a word for people who are in their heads
too much thinkers. Two. Solitude is a catalyst for innovation. Three.
The next generation of quiet kids can and must be
raised to know their own strengths. Four. Sometimes it helps
to be a pretend extrovert. There's always time to be
(31:27):
quiet later. Five, But in the long run, staying true
to your temperament is the key to finding work you
love and work that matters. Six. One genuine relationship is
worth a fistful of business cards. So I'm just going
to possible a second. This is actually something that made
me think differently about networking events, which, yeah, I always
feel like I have to go to for work and
(31:48):
make contacts and stuff and I'm terrible at them. But
it is true, like if you sit in the corner
but you make one good relationship at these things, it
does feel like a the event has been worthwhile. Yeah,
and that sort of eased my my thinking about this.
But back to the list. Seven, it's okay to cross
the street to avoid making small talk. Eight. Quiet leadership
(32:09):
is not an oxymoron. Nine love is essential, gariousness is optional,
and ten in a gentle way, you can shake the world.
And that's a quote from mahakma gandhi.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
You know what this is inspiring me? I feel like
the introverts of the world should unite in this case.
I mean, of course separately in their own houses, but.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
Still exactly and with that sort of amazing call to
action that you've just given. What do you say we
step out of our own shells and go head to
head in a fact off?
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Sounds good? All right? So here's a quick one. Did
you know that guzzling coffee before a meeting might backfire
on introverts looking for a little bit of a brain
boost is according to psychologist Brian little Quote, after ingesting
about two cups of coffee, extroverts carry out task more efficiently,
(33:03):
whereas introverts perform less. Well, this deficit is magnified if
the task they are engaging in is quantitative and if
it is done under time pressure.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
That's really interesting. I've got to cut back my caffeine intake.
So here's a funny one, also related to coffee. There's
a new machine in Singapore that's basically an office coffee
machine that withholds the coffee until two people have a
conversation in front of it. Oh no, it's being billed
as the linked in of coffee machines, and the whole
idea is to facilitate more human interactions, especially in spaces
(33:36):
where everyone's communicating on slack. But for those of us
who are on the quieter end of the spectrum and
really just want our cup of coffee in the morning.
It's got a nickname. It's called the introvert torture device. Wow,
that sounds about right. It's pretty rough, all right.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
So there's been more than a few introverted presidents in
American history. We of course think of link And being one,
and Obama was one, but I think Calvin Coolidge might
be the most famous of them. So there's all these
stories of people visiting the White House and when they talked,
he would just stare at them. In fact, during one interview,
Coolidge said his strategy was basically to let people monologue
(34:13):
their way out of his office. As he put it,
many times I say yes or no to people, but
even that is too much. It winds them up for
twenty minutes more.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
I love that. You know, this is one great story
about Coolidge I have to share. So we've talked about
him and his weird practical jokes, in the past, like
how he'd hit the buzzer to call the Secret Service
into his office and then he'd hide under the desk, which, honestly,
it just makes him sound like an idiot. But I
read he'd also often poured cream into his saucer instead
(34:45):
of his teacup, and then all these people sitting around
him at a meeting or whatever would be confused. So
after a while they'd do the same, Like they thought,
this is how the president likes to drink his cream
or whatever, and they didn't want to make him feel bad.
They thought maybe he was sophisticated, so like they did
the same thing, and after they'd all poured their cream
into their saucers, he just quietly placed the saucer on
(35:05):
the floor for his dogs to laugh at us. Pretty yeah,
I know, I think it's so terrific. But here's my fact.
So apparently we all get more introverted as we get older,
and you know, I guess this feels true, like we're
less interested in needing approval, we're less interested in making
friends and all that stuff. But apparently this is all
(35:27):
an evolutionary mechanism, so there's more need to make bonds
when you're younger than when you're older. But what's funny,
and Susan Kane points us out, is that relative levels
of introversion tend to stay the same. So she says, like,
if you go back to your high school reunion, for instance,
and you went and you ranked everyone in your class
into their levels of extraversion, they'd all have the same rank.
(35:50):
But it's just that everyone would have shifted together along
this spectrum.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Yeah, that's pretty interesting, but I mean, I guess it
also makes sense. Okay, Well, one of our favorite kids
authors of all time, Theodore Geisel aka Doctor Seuss, did
you know that he was a total introvert.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Oh that's interesting. I actually wouldn't have figured that because
you read about him in college and he was always
at keg parties and things. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Well, at least in terms of how he liked to work.
I mean, he loved working in a quiet studio. And
in fact, you know, once he became pretty famous, he
rarely went out in public because he was worried that
kids would want him to be kind of like the
cat in the hat, like this big, over the top,
gregarious figure, and so he actually stayed in because he
was quote worried his fans would be disappointed by his
(36:35):
reserve personality.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
Oh that's that's almost sad. But I do like that
a person who's definitely had this outsized influence on society
and kids and just making people happy in general, is
actually this poster boy for introversion. So I think we
should quietly quietly tip our hats to doctor Seuss and
you can keep today's trophy.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
All right, Well, thanks so much. This has been a
really fun one. I know we've got lots of introverts
and extroverts out there who've been listening today, and we'd
love to hear some facts from you that we may
have forgotten for today's episode. You can always send those
two part Time Genius at HowStuffWorks dot com or hit
us up on Facebook or Twitter. But as always, thanks
so much for listening. Thanks again for listening. Part Time
(37:29):
Genius is a production of How Stuff Works and wouldn't
be possible without several brilliant people who do the important
things we couldn't even begin to understand.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Christan McNeil does the editing thing.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Noel Brown made the theme song and does the mixy
mixy sound thing.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Jerry Roland does the exact producer thing.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
Gabeluesier is our lead researcher, with support from the Research
Army including Austin Thompson, Nolan Brown and Lucas.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
Adams and Eves. Jeff Cook gets the show to your ears.
Good job, Eves.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
If you like what you heard, we hope you'll subscribe,
And if you really really like what you've heard, maybe
you could leave a good review for us.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
Do we forget you?
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Jason who
Guess what will?
Speaker 2 (00:03):
What's that mango?
Speaker 1 (00:04):
So you know how there are names of groups of animals,
like I think a group of crows is a murder
of crows, or if you have a group of rhinoceros,
it's called a crash, not a squad, which you know,
I guess Taylor Swift or my son would call them.
It's a crash.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Just one more similarity between Taylor Swift and your son.
You forgot a couple of my favorites though. I've always
loved smack of jellyfish, and then of course a business
of ferrets, which I don't know why, but that's my favorite.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
I think it is pretty great. So I found this
video online called how to Care for Your Introvert, which
claims that a pair of introverts is actually called an
awkward and a group of introverts is what you call
an angst.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Is this real?
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Of course not, but the whole video is joking and fun,
and it points out that introverts are rarely found together
in the wild. So these are mostly theoretical terms anyway.
But as you know, I'm definitely an introvert, and when
I was in high school I almost used to bristle
at this phrase like all great figures and history or
seen as charismatic and big characters. And I figured, you know,
I could be fun at a party, I have friends,
(01:05):
I do things, so I figured there was no way
I should be lumped in with the introverts. But then
in college I quickly realized I am such an introvert,
especially when I compare myself to my wife, who just
crams in so many things into her social calendar. Yeah,
it doesn't make any sense to me. But you know,
this whole thing has made me wonder what does being
an introvert really mean? Like do you have to be
(01:26):
strictly an introvert or an extrovert? Or is there a spectrum?
Do our brains actually behave differently? And is it okay
for me to hit the closed door button on an
elevator when someone's trying to catch a ride with me,
Because I would really love a scientific excuse to say
that's all right.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Yeah, let's dive in.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Hey, their podcast listeners, welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm
Will Pearson, and as always I'm joined by my good
friend mangesh Hot Ticketerter and on the other side of
the soundproof glass sporting yet another one of his classic
t shirts. This one just says Introvert Social Club. Why
go big when you can go home? This is one
(02:24):
of my favorites of his. But that's our friend and
producer Tristan McNeil, and I've got to say, for an
introverted guy, he definitely speaks volumes with his shirts. Mang,
wouldn't you agree?
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Definitely?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Well, you know, one thing I realized while doing the
research for today's show is that introverts can be pretty
tough to pin down in terms of personality. And you know,
most of us hear the term, we immediately think of
traits like sensitivity or introspection or maybe quietness. I mean,
but the truth is, none of those things are guaranteed
signs of introversion. And that's because introversion is definitely a
(02:57):
spectrum rather than being this one set way of being.
So with that distinction in mind, I thought we could
use this episode as a way to kind of set
the record straight on what's probably one of the more
misunderstood aspects of human personality. So we're going to look
at the science behind introversion as well as how our
society tends to view introverted people and we'll also run
(03:18):
through some of the pros and cons to really see
how introverts stack up against their more outgoing counterparts.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
And to kick things off, I thought we could talk
a little bit about what introversion is and also what
it isn't. So to start from the beginning, the terms
introvert and extrovert were first coined by Carl Jung way
back in nineteen twenty one. He used them mainly as
a way to distinguish between two prevalent types of personality,
those who feel more connected to their inward thoughts and
feelings and those who focus primarily on the external world.
(03:47):
And really, that was it, like, There was no stigma,
no rank attached to one or another. You know. It
wasn't like my wife who tells me you introverts think
you're so special, right, These were just two different, equally
valid ways of experiencing and the world. Yeah, And in
the years since then, other researchers have expanded on Jung's ideas.
Of course, there's no catch all definition for the term,
(04:08):
but there are at least a few things we can
say about introverts in general. For example, introverts tend to
be good listeners who think before they speak, they enjoy
time alone. They usually need less stimulation than extroverts when
it comes to entertainment, and while they typically tire of
small talk quickly, they can talk your ear off when
they're given the chance to dig into a topic they
really care about, you know. And I think this was
(04:29):
something that I've really thought about in the past week
or so as we've been working on this topic. And
that's the fact that no one is really one hundred
percent introverted or one hundred percent extroverted, other than my
ninety one year old mamma. I think she's pretty close
to one hundred percent extrovert. Such an extrovert, she's.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Definitely an extrovert. But but we're all really more of
a mix of both personality types. And I've actually realized
that about the two of us. If people were looking
at the two of us, most people would say, you're
an introvert and I'm an extrovert. But really, as we've
been doing the research, you kind of realize there is
this very real mix. It's just that most of us
lean harder one way than the.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Other, definitely, and that's why you'll find like a quiet
classmate or a coworker can actually be a really engaging
public speaker, and that's because of this big cultural and
misconception that all introverts are incredibly shy people who can
never get up in front of an audience without cracking
under the pressure. But in reality, introversion is a completely
different thing than shyness. So I'm not sure if you
(05:27):
remember that groundbreaking book on introverts. It was written by
Susan Kine. It's called Quiet. It came out about Yeah,
it came out about five or six years ago, and
it's full of really insightful takes on introversion. And one
of the things Susan covers is that shyness and being
an introvert are driven by completely different forces. So listen
to how she explains it. Quote, Shyness is the fear
(05:49):
of social disapproval or humiliation, while introversion is a preference
for environments that are not over stimulating. Shyness is inherently painful,
introversion is not.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
I mean, I think that's such an interesting quote from that,
because those are definitely two words that I think people
have just assumed kind of meant the same thing. But
so think a little bit more about it. So shyness
is more of a reaction than a way of being,
And so as a result, you could even have an
extrovert who might really enjoy being around crowds but actually
(06:21):
is deathly afraid of being in the spotlight themselves.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Absolutely, and in the same way, it's possible to have
an introvert who's also shy. Since shyness is a learned behavior,
an introvert could develop a fear of social situations because
they've been made to feel like they don't measure up
to extroverts. So it could actually be this I guess,
the self fulfilling prophecy.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
M hmm. Well, and there's that same kind of misconception
about social anxiety. I mean, a lot of people would
assume that that condition goes hand in hand with introversion,
but it doesn't necessarily. I mean, social anxiety is similar
to shyness, and that it's largely learned behavior, but anxiety
also tends to run in family is without question a
(07:01):
very real genetic link there as well. It's just, you know,
a more extreme form of self consciousness than either shyness
or introversion. And just trying to think of an example
of this, I mean, somebody with social anxiety might feel
totally incapable in a social situation. You know, maybe they
tell themselves they don't have anything to contribute, or that
people will ignore or misunderstand them, so why bother even
(07:24):
saying anything. But I mean, that's generally not the case
with introverts. In fact, many of them are pretty adept
at kind of you know, you might say, turning on
their social skills when they need to.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
All right, well, now that we know some of the
things that introversion is not, we should talk about what
it actually is. And like you allude to at the
top of the show, that's kind of easier said than done,
because most popular definitions fail to capture the range of
ways that introversion manifests in people like we tend to
view introversion as opposite to extroversion. So if an extroverts outspoken,
(07:55):
then an introvert is tight liped. This is kind of
a dumbing down of distinctions, and it's really nothing new.
But thankfully there's been a lot more research on the subject,
and that includes the work of a psychology professor at
Wellesley College named Jonathan Cheek. So a few years back,
he surveyed a group of five hundred adults, and he
asked them everything from how often they daydream, how important
(08:16):
they consider solitude for their well being, all sorts of
questions like this, and then Cheek used their responses to
help develop what he called the star chart. But you
know you don't have to worry about this, well, I
know you've got a version of astrology. This has nothing
to do with where mercury is rising and star. It's
actually a breakdown of what Cheek considers the four types
(08:36):
of introversion. So it's social thinking, anxious, and restraint.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Even better, so we've got an acronym, and you know
I love a good acronym, So I now I feel
like you deserve the chance to kind of give us
a rundown of what falls in each of those those
four categories.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Sure, so the S is social introversion, and this is
probably what a lot of people would think of when
they're asked to describe introverts, right, Like, it's basically a
preference for small groups over large ones, for more solitary activities,
you know, think about things like reading a book or
watching a movie. Thinking introversion, which is the tea that's
a little different Introverts with this type don't mind like
(09:14):
big social events or these highly stimulating environments, and that's
mainly because they're really connected to their interior world.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
You know.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
All that commotion around them is really drowned out by
all the introspection that they go through in self reflection
that occupies their minds.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Yeah, so these are people. I mean, it kind of
makes me think of the phrase where we talk about
people being in their own little world.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
I guess, yeah, exactly. And the example I read try
to lay it out in Harry Potter terms, which is
of course very much appreciated. And in that case, the
socially awkward level would be a social introvert, while a
thinking introvert would be someone more like Luna Lovegood, you know,
who's sort of dreamily creative.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Right, that makes sense. I feel like everything makes more
sense when you can explain it in Harry Potter terms.
So definitely we'll try to do that with all future episodes.
But all right, so that's the S and the T.
So how about the A and the R.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Right, So next up is anxious introversion. As you might
guess from the name, this refers to introverts who have
also some form of social anxiety, and it's characterized by
a tendency to kind of overthink things and also to
dwell on your mistakes or perceived mistakes for well after
the fact. I mean, it really is, it can be crippling.
And lastly, there's the R and star, which refers to
(10:28):
restrained or reserved, and these are people who take a
little while to get going. So instead of diving straight
into a conversation, a restrained introvert might you know, hear
what everyone has to say, really take their time to
absorb and think on it and then offer their own thoughts.
So pretty much they're the think first, act later people
in the world.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Okay, that makes sense, And I feel like this four
way system definitely covers more ground than just the one
blanket term. But I have to also think that, you know,
there's an awful lot of overlap between the different types,
Like I can imagine somebody being a part thinking introvert
and part restrained introvert or some other combination of.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
These four definitely, and when she came up with this model,
he really wanted to expand the definition of introvert, not
just replace it with these four strict types. So according
to him, plenty of introverts. There are actually a mix
of all four types.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
All right, well, I'd say we have a pretty good
grasp on what goes into being an introvert. So why
don't we switch gears a little bit and talk about
the science of introversion. Because it isn't by chance that
introverts and extroverts think differently. I mean their brains are
actually different. For example, if you look at brain scans
of the two different types of brains, you'd see a
thicker prefrontal cortex in introverts when you compare them to extroverts.
(11:40):
And since that part of the brain is connected with
things like deep thought and planning, that bigger cortex might
actually explain why introverts tend to be less impulsive than extroverts. Now,
instead of processing new information directly, these introverts first run
it through the neural pathway that deals with planning and
long term MIMI. And so this is why introverts might
(12:02):
actually take longer to make a decision or former response,
because they're comparing old and new experiences and even weighing
the potential outcomes while they moul things over, and so
this can slow the thinking process down a pretty good
bit actually, But it also results in these carefully thought
out responses and choices, and that's not something that you
(12:23):
always get with extroverts.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Which is interesting. You know, I hadn't heard about that
bigger cortex this thing, but now I feel like I'm
going to brag to everyone about how large my cortex
probably is.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
I knew that that was coming. I know you're gonna
be bragging about this NonStop.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
So Actually, the differences between introverted and extroverted brains that
I've always heard about is the way we respond to dopamine. Yeah,
and you know we've talked about this before. Dopamine is
one of the neurotransmitters that's closely tied to our sensation
of pleasure, especially when it comes to seeking rewards or
taking risks, and dopamine has similar effects on introverts and
extroverts alike. When it hits your brain, you feel more alert,
(12:59):
you might be more talkative, more motivated to take chances,
and in fact, introverts and extroverts even have the same
amount of dopamine in their bodies. The difference is that
dopamine triggers the reward network much more strongly in the
brains of extroverts. So take something like earning a promotion
at work that would likely generate excitement in both kinds
of people, right, but the extrovert would feel that excitement
(13:21):
to a much greater degree than the introvert, which I.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Don't know, when you think about it, feels like kind
of a raw deal for the introverse. If it feels
like they're getting jipped on the whole dopamine thing, I guess.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Well, don't feel too bad just yet, because there's actually
another transmitter, as a newer transmitter called acetylchline, and it's
also associated with pleasure, but this one is the go
to choice for introverts looking to unwind, and unlike dopamine,
acetyl coline generates these happy feelings for more inward focused activities,
so like thinking deeply about something or concentrating on one
(13:54):
thing for an extended period. And the chemical is tied
to the parasympathetic side of the nervous system, which is
nicknamed the throttle down or the rest and digest side.
So if Netflix and Chill is actually your past time
a choice, you can thank a seedtle colin for that.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
All right, Well, since we're getting into the comparisons between
introverts and extroverts. I feel like we should go through
our list of pros and cons and see how the
two ways of being kind of stack up against one another.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yeah, it sounds fun to me. But first, let's take
a quick break.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
If you're listening to part Time Genius and we're talking
about the not so subtle differences between introverts and extroverts,
All right, mego. So the first introvert advantage that I
want to talk about is their nack for being able
to read people. Because when it comes to judging how
another person will think, or feel or act, we show
that introverts make better inferences than you know, extroverts, and
(15:03):
that's almost every single time. And we do know this
thanks to a study from a team of psychologists at Yale,
because they were asking more than one thousand participants about
how the average person would react in different social situations. So,
for example, this one comes straight from the test, and
here's the question. It's quote, people are usually overly confident
(15:24):
in the accuracy of their judgments true or false.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
I mean, I have to say true on that, but
I also feel like I might be being overconfident in you.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Of course, but actually you got the correct answer on
this one. But anyway, after the survey, the researchers rounded
up the highest scoring participants and then they ran a
series of psychological tests, and they did this to determine
which personality traits these people had in common. Now, it's
not surprising that the respondents who made the most accurate
judgments were more likely to be intelligent and interested in
(15:59):
problem solving than those who scored poorly. But the more
surprising finding was that these same people were also more introverted.
And as one of the studies authors explains, quote, it
could be that the introverted people are spending more time
observing human nature than those who are busy interacting with others,
or they are more accurate in introspection because they have
(16:21):
fewer motivational biases. They don't view the world through rose
colored glasses as jovial and extroverted people do.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Well, I mean that does track with what we were
saying about introverts and how they have a tendency to
think carefully and be more observant of their surroundings.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
That's true, but I don't want to get accused of
serious bias here, so I should point out that there
was a drawback to the introverts perception powers in this
same study, because along with that intelligence and curiosity, those
highest scoring participants also reported being more lonely and maybe
having lower self esteem than their more extroverted counterparts. So
(16:58):
it's not really an across the board win for either
one of these groups.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Yeah, and those kind of trade offs kind of pop
up a lot when you compare introverts and extroverts, And
I mean, it makes sense from an evolutionary perspective that
both types of people would excel and also lag in
different ways. You know, if one way of being was
decidedly better than the other, it feels like we still
wouldn't have both types of people in the world. And
if you think about how these different traits might have
(17:24):
emerged in the first place, it's easy to see their
respective evolutionary advantages. Like if you took like prehistoric introverts,
they likely would have stuck close to the cave and
avoided predators, which would have increased their chances of not
being eaten. And on the other hand, like the extroverted
cavemen would have wandered far and wide and they would
have had the instincts to look for new types of
(17:45):
food and shelter and all of that when shelter was
in short supply.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
And that's a good point. I'd not really thought about
that way. But I mean, what would you make of
the idea that introverts tend to be more melancholic? I mean,
I know, I've heard before that extroverts are happier people
overall when they're measured against introverts, and that study, for
Meal does seem to lend some credence to that theory.
So I'm curious what your thoughts are on that.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Yeah. So I've actually seen those studies before too, and
they're usually center on that dopamine reaction that we talked
about earlier. And the truth is, happiness levels are pretty
evenly matched between introverts and extroverts when it comes I
guess to like inwardly focused activities, you know, watching TV,
listening to music, reading a book. But the real disparity
arises when you look at happiness levels during social activities
(18:31):
and the ones where some kind of reward is at stake,
and in those cases, extroverts really have the advantage. But
you know, according to Susan Kine, this is more about
how we define happiness than it is about who's objectively happier.
For example, in Western culture is like our own, we
have a habit of viewing happiness as an active state.
It's sort of this explosive enthusiasm and excitement and giddiness.
(18:55):
And you know that's not the case for Eastern cultures,
where happiness is seen as something more passive of its
contentment and peacefulness and almost this feeling of being present
and focused in the moment. So Kin actually has a
quote on this. She says, when introverts talk about the
things that they most love to do, it's very often
activities like reading, hiking, cycling, being with their spouses, being
(19:17):
with their children. It's a quieter type of contentment that
often fuels introverts and that we don't pay proper attention to.
But speaking of proper attention, you know that might be
another reason that extroverts report such higher levels of happiness,
because they're less introspective, and because of that, they also
tend to overlook drawbacks and great experiences on a curve. So,
for example, an extrovert might say that they had a
(19:39):
great time at a party and not even mention things
like there wasn't enough food to go around, or that
the sound system kept going out. But I guess I
feel like you're.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Using specific examples from things.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
These are things that happened at a party a one too.
But yeah, you know, an introvert would likely notice all
these little details and you know, have a better sy
of how it impacted everyone's overall experience. But you know,
in the end, it could be that the introverts are
more inclined to give this less rosy and potentially more
accurate assessment of how happy they really are.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
I mean, I think that's probably true, But I mean,
back to what we were saying about those trade offs,
and to be fair, there are costs to being an
extrovert as well. I mean, we mentioned that extroverts have
this pensiont for risk taking, and so as you might expect,
that tendency can backfire in some pretty damaging ways. I mean,
as an example, extroverts are more likely to be hospitalized
(20:32):
for an accident or for an illness than introverts are,
and they're more likely to develop criminal behaviors. They're more
likely to get arrested too.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Like all of these things are true, that can't be true.
I mean, they're more likely to be arrested.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Yeah, this is why I'm trying to claim that I'm
not as much of an extrovert as I once thought
that I was. I mean, but I guess it makes
sense if you're impulsive instead of a planner. But this
does come from the journal Comprehensive Psychiatry, and this was
from recent search conducted at Johns Hopkins and at the
Bloomberg School of Public Health. So Mango, that sounds about
as legit as it gets.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Yeah, it's so bizarre, but you know what, we've been
focusing on differences. I do want to make sure that
we mentioned some of the similarities between introverts and extroverts,
and this is a pretty unexpected one. So you know
how introverts need time alone to kind of recharge their
batteries after a social outing. Yeah, I feel like this
is always the definition I've always used for introversion. And
(21:27):
obviously these people can turn on their extroverted behavior for
a while, but they eventually start to feel drained and
just want to go home and relax. But it turns
out that too much socializing can actually be exhausting for everyone,
even extroverts. So a couple of years ago. This finished
research team found that the more people were acting extroverted,
the more they reported being in a positive mood and
(21:48):
feeling unfatigued in the moment. However, after three hours of socializing,
people report these higher levels of fatigue, and this was
true for both introverts and extroverts.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Yeah. I mean, but three hours of intent socializing. That
just sounds exhausting. Like, I don't know who wouldn't be
tired by that? But Clinton, I think you're probably right.
But I mean, it is interesting that acting introverted netted
the same positive mood boost for both the introverts and
the extroverts, at least, you know, for a little while.
And I guess it goes to show that humans really
(22:19):
are social animals, just to differing degrees, I guess.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Yeah, I mean, that's probably a safe bet. But before
we move on, I want to point out that not
all people lean towards extroversion or introversion. There's actually a
third kind of person called an ambivert, and these are
the people who follow right smack in the middle of
the spectrum, and it's actually way more common than I
would have expected. I thought these were like unicorns, but
In fact, according to one study, ambiverts make up about
(22:44):
thirty eight percent of the population at any given time.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
It's kind of a weird word, though, don't you think
like you called an ambivert?
Speaker 1 (22:52):
But uh, it's really an insult.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
I mean, I am curious that, like, where do ambiverts
land in terms of the kinds of advantages that we've
been talking about.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
So the thing is that fewer studies have been commissioned
on amiverts is partially because scientists love studying the extremes.
But there was a management expert named Adam Grant who
conducted a study back in twenty thirteen. He surveyed three
hundred and forty call center employees and found that two
thirds of them considered themselves neither introverted nor extroverted. And
(23:21):
while you might think the extroverts would have this clear
advantage when it came to talking on the phone for
a living, Grant actually found that it was the ambiverts
who closed most of the sales.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
And do we know why?
Speaker 1 (23:32):
That is not entirely but Grant's theories that ambiverts are
just better suited for both aspects of a sales call.
You know, they could do the talking, they could also
do the listening, and as he explained, ambiverts are quote
likely to express the servedness and enthusiasm to persuade and
close the sale, but are more inclined to listen and
(23:53):
also are less vulnerable to appearing too excited or overconfident.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
And I guess it makes a lot of sense when
you think about it. But I'm glad you've broached this
subject of job proficiency though, because one thing that I
was looking into this week is how introverts are faring
intoday's job market. I mean, it's not surprising that they've
had a rough go of things in the past, both
in terms of business and in society as a whole.
But I was really trying to get a sense of
(24:18):
whether things have gotten any easier for introverts in the
information age.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Yeah. I mean, you think about that Moneyball example, where
people who ran funny or didn't look handsome enough were
considered less exciting prospects and then less valued, and you
can see how that might apply similarly to quiet employees.
But let's take another quick break and then dive back in. Okay, Well,
(24:54):
so I know you wanted to talk about how society
views introverts, and I think I have the perfect Susan
Kane quote to set the stage. You know, at the
beginning of her book Quiet, she writes, quote, today we
make room for a remarkably narrow range of personality styles.
We're told that to be great is to be bold,
to be happy is to be sociable. We see ourselves
as a nation of extroverts, which means that we have
(25:16):
lost sight of who we really are. Depending on which
study you consult, one third to one half of Americans
or introverts. In other words, one out of every two
or three people. You know, if you are not an
introvert yourself, you're surely raising, managing, married to, or coupled
with one.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Yeah, I mean, that's got to be true. And it's
clear that our country has a strong bias toward extroversion.
And actually this is something Kane experienced firsthand. I mean,
she was an attorney and a negotiator before she ever
decided to get into writing, and she experienced this all
through her career. Kane says she felt ashamed of being
an introvert, and not only did she come to view
(25:55):
her quietness and reserve as somewhat of her professional disadvantage.
She even considered it a behavioral defect, I mean, something
to correct or overcome, which is really unfortunate to think about.
And really it's no wonder she felt this way because
most schools and businesses, they're pressuring us all our lives
to be more extroverted and to get out of our
(26:17):
heads and complete work in groups and complete you know,
things as a team. So it's not surprising that people
would think this way.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Yeah, I mean, I hadn't thought about this before, but
most of our institutions are clearly set to cater to
extroverts and the kinds of stimulation they enjoy. Like if
you think about brainstorming meetings where the most upbeat person
in the office stands at a whiteboard and kind of
coaxes ideas out of everyone be there's at least forty
years of research that says individuals brainstorming on their own
(26:44):
come up with better ideas than groups do. But most
businesses have missed that memo.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
You know, I feel like Mango, this is one of
those episodes where every time you're mentioning things, I'm like,
you've got somebody specific in mind. I know it, but anyway,
but you think about that group think mentality that it's
become the standard in most US schools as well. I mean,
you know, the idea that these off the cuff interactions
will produce these new or creative ideas, and that is
(27:11):
probably true in some cases, but that approach definitely discounts
the creativity that comes with being in solitude sometimes.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Yeah, I mean it's a shame too, because you don't
want kids to think their natural inclinations are invalid. Like
sometimes you see the parents of preschool or elementary age
students making apologies for their children's introversion, you know, like
I'm sorry he's so quiet or something like that. I've
been guilty of this in the past, and so many
of these kids grow up making the same apologies for themselves,
(27:40):
as if their innate personalities or something they should apologize for.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Yeah, it's true, but you know, thanks to the work
of Susan Kin and of course others, we've been thinking
about this and our society has been showing introverts I think,
a lot more empathy in recent years. And you know,
from shirts like the one Tristan's rocking and rocking so
well today rocking is so hard, Oh man, you think
about the countless listicals and introvert quizzes that we're all
(28:05):
bombarded with, and being an introvert in America is now
more accepted than any other time in history. In fact,
one nice side effect of the culture becoming more accepting
of introversion is that it opens up these new career
opportunities for introverts. And in fact, have you heard this
podcast that's called Hiding in the Bathroom. I have not,
so it's hosted by an introverted blogger turned podcaster named
(28:28):
maraa Aaron's Meal, and it's basically an ongoing rebuttal to
the idea that introversion is always a weakness and extraversion
is always a strength.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Which is so weird an introvert podcaster. I feel like,
who would have heard of such a thing?
Speaker 2 (28:43):
I mean, that can't even be possible, can it?
Speaker 1 (28:45):
I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Well, it makes perfect sense that introverts might thrive in
a field like that. I mean, after all, podcasts walk
that line between private and public. I guess yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
And I mean it's the same thing we touched on
earlier about how some introverts actually make great public speakers
because they enjoyed the opportunity to dig in and really
think about these topics and death, which is you know
why everyone should actually listen to Susan Kan's Ted Talk,
because it's really really wonderful.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Yeah, Well, the Internet has also been a boon for introverts.
I mean, you get to actively engage with so many
different people, all from this relative comfort and safety of
your own home. What's interesting is that introverts are finding
new career opportunities away from their screens too. This is
according to Smithsonian, introverts are in high demand on Mars,
(29:32):
or at least on these NASA missions to Mars because,
according to a twenty fourteen report, researchers now believe that
extroverts could be a quote liability on long term space mission.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Is that just because they're afraid there'd be too many
criminals in the.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Midda yeah, way too many criminals now, I mean it's
it's really because we're talking about pinning up these talkative,
highly outgoing people and these isolated environments for years on end.
So I mean, not only would these extroverted team members
everybody else crazy on board, but they'd also have to
contend with living in an environment that really gives them
very little room for new activities or social interactions, so
(30:09):
you could see how it could be pretty tough for them.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Yeah. I mean, my daughter is a total extrovert too,
And before we put her in preschool, when she was
just at home, we thought she was like a husky
without work. She was just going around being destructed, couldn't
figure out what to do with herself. And then you
put her in school and she's interacting with kids, and
suddenly she's just totally happy.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yeah, you were definitely surrounded by extroverts in your life,
but you know, you think about the goal is to
find the right balance here and that sweet spot where
introverts and extroverts kind of even each other out to
create this compatible and functioning team.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
Yeah, that feels like what we should be striving for
in general. But you know, at the risk of going
full cornball here, I did want to share some advice
that Susan Kane put together for the introverts out there.
It's called the Quiet Revolution Manifesto, and she has ten
tips for everyone who is introverted, and I thought i'd
just share it here. Great, So this is how it goes. One.
(31:07):
There's a word for people who are in their heads
too much thinkers. Two. Solitude is a catalyst for innovation. Three.
The next generation of quiet kids can and must be
raised to know their own strengths. Four. Sometimes it helps
to be a pretend extrovert. There's always time to be
(31:27):
quiet later. Five, But in the long run, staying true
to your temperament is the key to finding work you
love and work that matters. Six. One genuine relationship is
worth a fistful of business cards. So I'm just going
to possible a second. This is actually something that made
me think differently about networking events, which, yeah, I always
feel like I have to go to for work and
(31:48):
make contacts and stuff and I'm terrible at them. But
it is true, like if you sit in the corner
but you make one good relationship at these things, it
does feel like a the event has been worthwhile. Yeah,
and that sort of eased my my thinking about this.
But back to the list. Seven, it's okay to cross
the street to avoid making small talk. Eight. Quiet leadership
(32:09):
is not an oxymoron. Nine love is essential, gariousness is optional,
and ten in a gentle way, you can shake the world.
And that's a quote from mahakma gandhi.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
You know what this is inspiring me? I feel like
the introverts of the world should unite in this case.
I mean, of course separately in their own houses, but.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
Still exactly and with that sort of amazing call to
action that you've just given. What do you say we
step out of our own shells and go head to
head in a fact off?
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Sounds good? All right? So here's a quick one. Did
you know that guzzling coffee before a meeting might backfire
on introverts looking for a little bit of a brain
boost is according to psychologist Brian little Quote, after ingesting
about two cups of coffee, extroverts carry out task more efficiently,
(33:03):
whereas introverts perform less. Well, this deficit is magnified if
the task they are engaging in is quantitative and if
it is done under time pressure.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
That's really interesting. I've got to cut back my caffeine intake.
So here's a funny one, also related to coffee. There's
a new machine in Singapore that's basically an office coffee
machine that withholds the coffee until two people have a
conversation in front of it. Oh no, it's being billed
as the linked in of coffee machines, and the whole
idea is to facilitate more human interactions, especially in spaces
(33:36):
where everyone's communicating on slack. But for those of us
who are on the quieter end of the spectrum and
really just want our cup of coffee in the morning.
It's got a nickname. It's called the introvert torture device. Wow,
that sounds about right. It's pretty rough, all right.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
So there's been more than a few introverted presidents in
American history. We of course think of link And being one,
and Obama was one, but I think Calvin Coolidge might
be the most famous of them. So there's all these
stories of people visiting the White House and when they talked,
he would just stare at them. In fact, during one interview,
Coolidge said his strategy was basically to let people monologue
(34:13):
their way out of his office. As he put it,
many times I say yes or no to people, but
even that is too much. It winds them up for
twenty minutes more.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
I love that. You know, this is one great story
about Coolidge I have to share. So we've talked about
him and his weird practical jokes, in the past, like
how he'd hit the buzzer to call the Secret Service
into his office and then he'd hide under the desk, which, honestly,
it just makes him sound like an idiot. But I
read he'd also often poured cream into his saucer instead
(34:45):
of his teacup, and then all these people sitting around
him at a meeting or whatever would be confused. So
after a while they'd do the same, Like they thought,
this is how the president likes to drink his cream
or whatever, and they didn't want to make him feel bad.
They thought maybe he was sophisticated, so like they did
the same thing, and after they'd all poured their cream
into their saucers, he just quietly placed the saucer on
(35:05):
the floor for his dogs to laugh at us. Pretty yeah,
I know, I think it's so terrific. But here's my fact.
So apparently we all get more introverted as we get older,
and you know, I guess this feels true, like we're
less interested in needing approval, we're less interested in making
friends and all that stuff. But apparently this is all
(35:27):
an evolutionary mechanism, so there's more need to make bonds
when you're younger than when you're older. But what's funny,
and Susan Kane points us out, is that relative levels
of introversion tend to stay the same. So she says, like,
if you go back to your high school reunion, for instance,
and you went and you ranked everyone in your class
into their levels of extraversion, they'd all have the same rank.
(35:50):
But it's just that everyone would have shifted together along
this spectrum.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Yeah, that's pretty interesting, but I mean, I guess it
also makes sense. Okay, Well, one of our favorite kids
authors of all time, Theodore Geisel aka Doctor Seuss, did
you know that he was a total introvert.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Oh that's interesting. I actually wouldn't have figured that because
you read about him in college and he was always
at keg parties and things. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Well, at least in terms of how he liked to work.
I mean, he loved working in a quiet studio. And
in fact, you know, once he became pretty famous, he
rarely went out in public because he was worried that
kids would want him to be kind of like the
cat in the hat, like this big, over the top,
gregarious figure, and so he actually stayed in because he
was quote worried his fans would be disappointed by his
(36:35):
reserve personality.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
Oh that's that's almost sad. But I do like that
a person who's definitely had this outsized influence on society
and kids and just making people happy in general, is
actually this poster boy for introversion. So I think we
should quietly quietly tip our hats to doctor Seuss and
you can keep today's trophy.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
All right, Well, thanks so much. This has been a
really fun one. I know we've got lots of introverts
and extroverts out there who've been listening today, and we'd
love to hear some facts from you that we may
have forgotten for today's episode. You can always send those
two part Time Genius at HowStuffWorks dot com or hit
us up on Facebook or Twitter. But as always, thanks
so much for listening. Thanks again for listening. Part Time
(37:29):
Genius is a production of How Stuff Works and wouldn't
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things we couldn't even begin to understand.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
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Speaker 2 (37:38):
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Speaker 1 (37:42):
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Speaker 2 (37:44):
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Speaker 2 (37:53):
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