August 22, 2018 • 38 mins
Are extroverts happier than introverts? Is coffee bad for an introvert's brain? And does your personality type make you more likely to be arrested? (Spoiler: it does!) Will and Mango take a closer look at the secret talents lurking inside your friendly neighborhood introvert.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
I guess what will? What's that mango? So you know
how their names of groups of animals, like I think
a group of crows is a murder of crows, or
if you have a group of rhinoceros is called a crash,
not a squad, which you know, I guess Taylor Swift
or my son would call them. It's a crash. Just
one more similarity between Taylor Swift and your son. You did,
(00:22):
you forgot a couple of my favorites. So I've always
loved smack of jellyfish, and then of course a business
of ferrets, which I don't know why, but that's my favorite.
I think it is pretty great. So I found this
video online called how to Care for Your Introvert, which
claims that a pair of introverts is actually called an
awkward and a group of introverts is what you call
an angst. Is this real? Like, of course not, but
(00:44):
the whole video is joky and fun, and it points
out that introverts are rarely found together in the wild.
So these are mostly theoretical terms anyway. But as you know,
I'm definitely an introvert, and when I was in high school,
I almost used to bristle at this phrase, like all
great figures in history are seen as charismatic and big characters,
And I figured, you know, I could be fun at
a party and friends, I do things, So I figured
(01:07):
there was no way I should be lumped in with
the introverts. But then in college I quickly realized I
am such an introvert, especially when I compared myself to
my wife, who just crams in so many things into
our social calendar. It doesn't make any sense to me.
But you know, this whole thing has made me wonder
what does being an introvert really mean? Like do you
have to be strictly an introvert or an extrovert? Or
(01:28):
is there a spectrum? Do our brains actually behave differently?
And is it okay for me to hit the closed
door button on an elevator when someone's trying to catch
a ride with me, Because I would really love a
scientific excuse to say that's all right, let's dive in,
(02:05):
say their podcast listeners, Welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm
Will Pearson, and as always I'm joined by my good
friend Mangesh Ticketer. And on the other side of the
soundproof glass sporting yet another one of his classic T shirts.
This one just says introverts social club. Why go big
when you can go home? This is one of my
favorites of his. But that's our friend and producer Tristan McNeil,
(02:27):
And I've got to say, for an introverted guy, he
definitely speaks volumes with his shirts. Mango wouldn't agree. Definitely. Well,
you know, one thing I realized while doing the research
for today's show is that introverts can be pretty tough
to pin down in terms of personality. And you know,
and most of us here the term, we immediately think
of traits like sensitivity, or introspection or maybe quietness. I mean,
(02:51):
but the truth is, none of those things are guaranteed
signs of introversion. And that's because introversion is definitely a
spectrum rather than being this one set way of being.
So with that distinction in mind, I thought we could
use this episode as a way to kind of set
the record straight on what's probably one of the more
misunderstood aspects of human personality. We're gonna look at the
(03:12):
science behind introversion as well as how our society tends
to view introverted people. And we'll also run through some
of the pros and cons to really see how introverts
stack up against their more outgoing counterparts, and to kick
things off, I I thought we could talk a little
bit about what introversion is and also what it isn't.
So to start from the beginning, the terms introvert and
(03:32):
extrovert were first coined by Carl Jung way back in
He used them mainly as a way to distinguish between
two prevalent types of personality, those who feel more connected
to their inward thoughts and feelings and those who focus
primarily on the external world. And really, that was it,
Like there was no stigma, no rank attached to one
or another. You know. It wasn't like my wife who
(03:53):
tells me you introverts think you're so special. Like these
were just two different, equally valid ways of experiencing and
processing the world. And in the years since then, other
researchers have expanded on Young's ideas. Of course, there's no
catch all definition for the term, but there at least
a few things we can say about introverts in general.
For example, introverts tend to be good listeners, who think
(04:14):
before they speak. They enjoy time alone, They usually need
less stimulation than extroverts when it comes to entertainment. And
while they typically tire of small talk quickly, they can
talk to your ear off when they're given the chance
to dig into a topic they really care about, you know.
And and I think this was something that I've really
thought about in the past week or so as we've
been working on this topic. And that's the fact that
(04:35):
no one is really a hundred percent introverted or add
percent extroverted other than my year old Mammo. I think
she's pretty close to extrovert extrovert. She's definitely an extrovert.
But but we're all really more of a mix of
both personality types. And I've actually realized that about the
two of us. If if people are looking at the
two of us, most people would say you're an introvert
(04:57):
and I'm an extrovert. But really, as we've been doing
the research, you kind of realize there is this very
real mix. It's just that most of us lean harder
one way than the other, definitely, and that's why you'll
find like a quiet classmate or a coworker can actually
be a really engaging public speaker. And that's because of
this big cultural misconception that all introverts are incredibly shy
(05:18):
people who can never get up in front of an
audience without cracking under the pressure. But in reality, introversion
is a completely different thing than shyness. So I'm not
sure if you remember that groundbreaking book on introverts. It
was written by Susan Kine. It's called Quiet. It came
out about Yeah, it came out about five or six
years ago, and it's full of really insightful takes on introversion.
(05:39):
And one of the things Susan covers is that shyness
and being an introvert are driven by completely different forces.
So listen to how she explains it. Quote, shyness is
the fear of social disapproval or humiliation. Well, introversion is
a preference for environments that are not over stimulating. Shyness
is inherently painful, Introversion is not. I mean, I think
(06:01):
that's such an interesting quote from that, because those are
definitely two words that I think people have just assumed
kind of meant the same thing. But so think a
little bit more about it. So, shyness is more of
a reaction than a way of being, and so as
a result, you could even have an extrovert who might
really enjoy being around crowds, but actually it is definitely
(06:21):
afraid of being in the spotlight themselves. Absolutely, And in
the same way, it's possible to have an introvert who's
also shy. Since shinus is a learned behavior, an introvert
could develop a fear of social situations because they've been
made to feel like they don't measure up to extroverts.
So it could actually be this, I guess, the self
fulfilling prophecy. Well, and there's that same kind of misconception
(06:43):
about social anxiety. I mean, a lot of people would
assume that that condition goes hand in hand with introversion,
but it doesn't necessarily. I mean, social anxiety is is
similar to shyness, and that it's largely learned behavior, but
anxiety also tends to run in families, so is without
question a very real genetic lenk there as well. It's just,
(07:04):
you know, a more extreme form of self consciousness than
either shyness or introversion. And just trying to think of
an example of this, I mean, somebody with social anxiety
might feel totally incapable in a social situation, you know,
maybe they tell themselves they don't have anything to contribute,
or that people ignore or misunderstand them, so why bother
even saying anything. But I mean, that's generally not the
(07:27):
case with introverts. In fact, many of them are pretty
adept at kind of you know, you might say, turning
on their social skills when they need to. All right, well,
now that we know some of the things that introversion
is not, we should talk about what it actually is.
And like you alluded to at the top of the show,
that's kind of easier said than done because most popular
definitions fail to capture the range of ways that introversion
(07:48):
manifests in people like we tend to view introversion as
opposite to extroversion. So if an extroverts outspoken, then an
introvert is tight lip. This is kind of a dumbing
down of distinctions, and it's really nothing new. But thankfully
there's been a lot more research on the subject, and
that includes the work of a psychology professor at Wellesley
College named Jonathan Cheeks. So a few years back, he
(08:10):
surveyed a group of five adults and he asked them
everything from how often they dy dream, how important they
consider solitude for their well being all sorts questions like this,
and then Cheek used their responses to help develop what
he called the star chart. But you know you don't
have to worry about this, well, I know you've got
an aversion to astrology. This has nothing to do with
where mercury is rising. And it's actually a breakdown of
(08:35):
what Cheek considers the four types of introversion. So it's social, thinking, anxious,
and restraint. Even better, so we've got an acronym, and
you know I love a good acreatim So now I
feel like you deserve the chance to kind of give
us a rundown of what falls in each of those
those four categories. Sure, so the S is social introversion,
and this is probably what a lot of people would
(08:56):
think of when they're asked to describe introverts, right, Like,
it's basically a preference for small groups over large ones,
for more solitary activities, you know, thinking about things like
reading a book or watching a movie. Thinking introversion, which
is the T that's a little different. Introverts of this
type don't mind like big social events or these highly
stimulating environments, and that's mainly because they're really connected to
(09:21):
their interior world. You know, all that commotion around them
is really drowned out by all the introspection that they
go through in self reflection that occupies their minds. Yeah,
so these are people. I mean it kind of makes
me think of the phrase where we talk about people
being in their own little world. I guess, yeah, exactly.
And the example I read try to lay it out
in Harry Potter terms, which is of course very much appreciated.
(09:43):
And in that case, the socially awkward nevill would be
a social introvert, while a thinking introvert would be someone
more like Luna Lovegood, you know, who's sort of dreamily creative. Right,
that makes sense. I feel like everything makes more sense
when you can explain it in Harry Potter. So evidently
we'll try to do that with all future episodes. But
all right, so that's the S and the T. So
(10:03):
how about the A and the R. Right, So next
up is anxious introversion. As you might guess from the name,
this refers to introverts who have also some form of
social anxiety, and it's characterized by a tendency to kind
of overthink things and also to dwell on your mistakes
or perceived mistakes for well after the fact, I mean,
it really is, it can be crippling. And lastly, there's
(10:26):
the R and star, which refers to restrained or reserved.
And uh, these are people who take a little while
to get going. So instead of diving straight into a conversation,
a restrained introvert, might you know, hear what everyone has
to say, really take their time to absorb and think
on it and then offer their own thoughts. So pretty
much there to think first, act let people in the world. Okay,
(10:47):
that makes sense, And I feel like this four way
system definitely covers more ground than just the one blanket term.
But I have to also think that, you know, there's
an awful lot of overlap between the different types, Like
I can imagine somebody being a part thinking introvert and
part restrained introvert or some other combination of these four definitely,
and when she came up with this model, he really
(11:08):
wanted to expand the definition of introvert, not just replace
it with these four strict types. So, according to him,
plenty of introverts are actually a mix of all four types.
Al Right, well, I'd say we have a pretty good
grasp on what goes into being an introvert. So why
why don't we switch gears a little bit and talk
about the science of introversion Because it isn't by chance
that introverts and extroverts think differently. I mean, their brains
(11:29):
are actually different. For example, if you look at brain
scans of the two different types of brains, you'd see
a thicker prefrontal cortex in introverts when you compare them
to extroverts. And since that part of the brain is
connected with things like deep thought and planning, that bigger
cortex might actually explain why introverts tend to be less
impulsive than extroverts. Now, instead of processing new information directly,
(11:53):
these introverts first run it through the neural pathway that
deals with planning and long term memor Marie. And so
this is why introverts might actually take longer to make
a decision or former response, because they're comparing old and
new experiences and even weighing the potential outcomes while they
mold things over. And so this can slow the thinking
(12:15):
process down a pretty good bid actually, but it also
results in these carefully thought out responses and choices, and
it's not something that you always get with extroverts, which
is interesting. You know, I hadn't heard about that bigger
cortex is thing, But now I feel like I'm gonna
brag to everyone about how large my cortex. Probably I
knew that that was coming. I know you're gonna be
(12:35):
bragging about this non stuff. So actually, the differences between
introverted and extroverted brains that I've always heard about is
the way we respond to dopamine. And you know, we've
talked about this before. Dopamine is one of the neurotransmitters
that's closely tied to our sensation of pleasure, especially when
it comes to seeking rewards or taking risks, and uh,
Dopamine has similar effects on introverts and extroverts alike. When
(12:57):
it hits your brain, you feel more alert, you might
be more talkative, more motivated to take chances, and in fact,
introverts and extroverts even have the same amount of dopamine
in their bodies. The differences that dopamine triggers the reward
network much more strongly in the brains of extroverts. So
take something like earning a promotion at work that would
likely generate excitement in both kinds of people, right, But
(13:19):
the extrovert would feel that excitement to a much greater
degree than the introvert, which I don't know, when you
think about it, feels like kind of a raw deal
for the introverse. If it feels like they're getting jipped
on the whole dopamine thing, I guess, well, don't feel
too bad just yet, because there's actually another transmitter is
a newer transmitter called acetal coline, and it's also associated
(13:39):
with pleasure, but this one is the go to choice
for introverts looking to unwind, and unlike dopamine, acetal coline
generates these happy feelings for more inward focused activities, so
like thinking deeply about something or concentrating on one thing
for an extended period. And the chemical is tied to
the parasympathetic side of the nervous system, which is nicknamed
(14:00):
the throttledown or the rest and digest side. So if
Netflix and Chill is actually your pastime a choice, you
can thank a settle colin for that. All right. Well,
since we're getting into the comparisons between introverts and extroverts,
I feel like we should go through our list of
pros and cons and see how the two ways of
being kind of stack up against one another. Yeah, it
(14:23):
sounds fun to me. But first, let's take a quick break.
If you're listening to Part Time Genius and we're talking
(14:44):
about the not so subtle differences between introverts and extroverts, alright,
I go. So the first introvert advantage that I want
to talk about is their knack for being able to
read people, because when it comes to judging how another
person will think, or feel or act, start show that
introverts make better inferences than you know, extroverts. And that's
almost every single time. And we do know this thanks
(15:07):
to a study from a team of psychologists at Yale,
because they were asking more than a thousand participants about
how the average person would react in different social situations. So,
for example, this one comes straight from the test, and
here's the question. It's quote, people are usually overly confident
in the accuracy of their judgments true or false. I
(15:30):
mean I have to say true on that, but I
also feel like I might be being overconfident of course,
but actually you got the correct answer on this one.
But anyway, after the survey, the researchers rounded up the
highest scoring participants, and then they ran a series of
psychological tests, and they did this to determine which personality
(15:50):
traits these people had in common. Now, it's not surprising
that the respondents who made the most accurate judgments were
more likely to be intelligent and interested in problem solving
than those who scored poorly. But the more surprising finding
was that these same people were also more introverted. And
as one of the studies authors explains, quote, it could
(16:11):
be that the introverted people are spending more time observing
human nature than those who are busy interacting with others,
or they're more accurate and introspection because they have fewer
motivational biases. They don't view the world through rose colored
glasses as jovial and extroverted people do. Well, I mean
that does track with what we were saying about introverts
(16:32):
and how they have a tendency to think carefully and
be more observant of their surroundings. That's true, but I
don't want to get accused of serious bias here, so
I should point out that there was a drawback to
the introverts perception powers in this same study, because along
with that intelligence and curiosity, those highest scoring participants also
(16:52):
reported being more lonely and maybe having lower self esteem
than they're more extroverted counterparts, So it's not really an
across the board win for either one of these groups. Yeah,
and those kind of tradeoffs kind of pop up a
lot when you compare introverts and extroverts, And I mean,
it makes sense from an evolutionary perspective that both types
of people would excel and also lag in different ways.
(17:15):
You know, if one way of being was decidedly better
than the other, it feels like we still wouldn't have
both types of people in the world. And if you
think about how these different traits might have emerged in
the first place, it's easy to see their respective evolutionary advantages. Like, um,
if you took like prehistoric introverts, they likely would have
stuck close to the cave and avoided predators, which would
(17:36):
have increased their chances of not being eaten. And on
the other hand, like the extroverted caveman would have wandered
far and wide and and they would have had the
instincts to look for new types of food and shelter
and all of that. When shelter was in short supply
and that's a good point. I had not really thought
about that way. But I mean, what would you make
of the idea that introverts tend to be more melancholic?
(17:56):
I mean, I know I've heard before that extroverts or
happier people overall when they're measured against introverts, and that study,
for Meal, does seem to lend some credence to that theory.
I'm curious what your thoughts are on that. Yeah. So
I've actually seen those studies before too, and they're usually
center on that dopamine reaction that we talked about earlier.
And the truth is, happiness levels are pretty evenly matched
(18:18):
between introverts and extroverts when it comes I guess to
like inwardly focused activities, you know, watching TV, listening to music,
reading a book. But the real disparity arises when you
look at happiness levels during social activities and the ones
where some kind of reward is at stake, and in
those cases extroverts really have the advantage. But you know,
according to Susan Caine, this is more about how we
(18:41):
define happiness than it is about who's objectively happier. For example,
in in Western culture is like our own, we we
have a habit of viewing happiness as an active state.
It's sort of this explosive enthusiasm and excitement and giddiness.
And you know, that's not the case for Eastern cultures,
where happiness is seen as something more past of its
contentment and peacefulness and almost this feeling of being present
(19:04):
and focused in the moment. So Kine actually has a
quote on this. She says, when introverts talk about the
things that they most love to do, it's very often
activities like reading, hiking, cycling, being with their spouses, being
with their children. It's a quieter type of contentment that
often fuels introverts and that we don't pay proper attention to.
But speaking of proper attention, you know that might be
(19:27):
another reason that extroverts report such higher levels of happiness,
because they're less introspective, and because of that, they also
tend to overlook drawbacks and great experiences on a curve. So,
for example, an extrovert might say that they had a
great time at a party and not even mention things
like there wasn't enough food to go around or that
the sound system kept going out. But I guess feel
like you're using specific examples from things. These are things
(19:50):
that haven't at a party, I want to But you know,
an introvert would likely notice all these little details and uh,
you know, have a better sense of how it impacted
everyone's overall experience. But you know, in the end, it
could be that the introverts are more inclined to give
this less rosy and potentially more accurate assessment of how
happy they really are. I mean, I think that's probably true.
(20:14):
But I mean, back to what we were saying about
those trade offs, and to be fair, there are costs
to being an extrovert as well. I mean, we mentioned
that extroverts have this pensiont for risk taking, and so
as you might expect, that tendency can backfire in some
pretty damaging ways. I mean, as an example, extroverts are
more likely to be hospitalized for an accident or for
an illness than introverts are, and they're more likely to
(20:36):
develop criminal behaviors. They're more likely to get arrested. To like,
all of these things are true, that can't be true.
I mean, I feel like they're more likely to be arrested. Yeah,
this is why I'm trying to claim that I'm not
as much of an extrovert, as I once thought that
I was. I mean, but I guess it makes sense
if you're impulsive instead of a planner. But this does
come from the journal Comprehensive Psychiatry, and this was from
(20:59):
re search conducted at Johns Hopkins and at the Bloomberg
School of Public Health. So Mango, that sounds about as
legit as it gets. Yeah, that's so bizarre. But you know,
we've been focusing on differences. I I do want to
make sure that we mentioned some of the similarities between
introverts and extroverts, and this is a pretty unexpected one.
So you know how introverts need time alone to kind
(21:19):
of recharge their batteries after a social outing. Yeah, I
feel like this is always the definition I've always used
for introversion. And obviously these people can turn on their
extroverted behavior for a while, but they eventually start to
feel drained and just want to go home and relax.
But it turns out that too much socializing can actually
be exhausting for everyone, even extroverts. So a couple of
(21:41):
years ago, this finished research team found that the more
people were acting extroverted, the more they reported being in
a positive mood and feeling unfatigued in the moment. However,
after three hours of socializing, people report these higher levels
of fatigue. And this was true for both introverts and extroverts. Yeah,
I mean, but three hours of intense socializing that just
(22:01):
sounds exhausting. Like, I don't know, who wouldn't be tired
by that? Clinton, I think that's probably right. But I mean,
it is interesting that acting introverted netted the same positive
mood boost for both the introverts and the extroverts, at least,
you know, for a little while. But and I guess
it goes to show that humans really are social animals,
just two differing degrees. I guess. Yeah, I mean, that's
(22:23):
probably a safe that But before we move on, I
want to point out that not all people lean towards
extroversion or introversion. There's actually a third kind of person
called an ambivert, and these are the people who followed
right smack in the middle of the spectrum, and it's
actually way more common than I would have expected. I
thought these were like unicorns, but in fact, according to
one study, ambiverts makeup about thirty eight percent of the
(22:45):
population at any given time, It's kind of a weird
word though, don't you think, like called an ambivert but
really an insult? I mean, I am curious that, like,
where do ambiverts land in terms of the kinds of
advantages that we've been talking up. So the thing is
that fewer studies have been commissioned on anty verts is
partially because scientists love studying the extremes, but that there
(23:08):
was a management expert named Adam Grant who conducted a
study back in two thousand thirteen. He surveyed three forty
call center employees and found that two thirds of them
considered themselves neither introverted nor extroverted. And while you might
think the extroverts would have this clear advantage when it
came to talking on the phone for a living, Grant
actually found that it was the ambiverts who closed most
(23:30):
of the sales. And do we know why? That is
not entirely but Grants theories that ambiverts are just better
suited for both aspects of a sales call. You know,
they could do the talking, they could also do the listening,
and as he explained, ambiverts are quote likely to express
the sertiveness and enthusiasm to persuade and close the sale,
(23:51):
but are more inclined to listen and also are less
vulnerable to appearing too excited or overconfident. And I guess
it makes a lot of sense when you when you
think about it. But I'm glad you've broached this subject
of job proficiency though, because one thing that I was
looking into this week is how introverts are faring in
today's job market. I mean, it's it's not surprising that
(24:11):
they've had a rough go of things in the past,
both in terms of business and in society as a whole.
But I was really trying to get a sense of
whether things have gotten any easier for introverts in the
information age. Yeah, I mean, you think about that Moneyball example,
where people who ran funny or didn't look handsome enough
were considered less exciting prospects and then less valued, and
(24:32):
you can see how that might apply similarly to quiet employees.
But let's take another quick break and then dive back in. Okay, Well,
(24:54):
so I know you wanted to talk about how society
views introverts, and I think I have the perfect Susan
Caine quote to set the stage. You know, at the
beginning of her book Quiet, she writes, quote, today we
make room for a remarkably narrow range of personality styles.
We're told that to be great is to be bold,
to be happy is to be sociable. We see ourselves
as a nation of extroverts, which means that we have
(25:16):
lost sight of who we really are. Depending on which
study you consult, one third to one half of Americans
or introverts. In other words, one out of every two
or three people. You know, if you are not an
introvert yourself, you're surely raising, managing, married to, or coupled
with one. Yeah, I mean that's got to be true.
And it's clear that our country has a strong bias
(25:37):
towards extraversion. And actually this is something Kine experience firsthand.
I mean, she was an attorney and a negotiator before
she ever decided to get into writing, and she experienced
this all through her career. That Kane says she felt
ashamed of being an introvert. And not only did she
come to view her quietness and reserve as somewhat of
(25:58):
her professional disadvantage, she even considered it a behavioral defect,
I mean something to correct or overcome, which is really
unfortunate to think about. And really, it's no wonder she
felt this way because most schools and businesses there pressuring
us all our lives to be more extroverted and to
get out of our heads and complete work in groups
(26:18):
and complete you know, things as a team. So it's
it's not surprising that people would think this way. Yeah,
I mean, I hadn't thought about this before, but most
of our institutions are clearly set to cater to extroverts
and the kinds of stimulation they enjoy. Like if you
think about brainstorming meetings where the most upbeat person in
the office stands at a whiteboard and kind of coaxes
(26:39):
ideas out of everyone. There's at least forty years of
research that says individuals brainstorming on their own come up
with better ideas than groups do. But most businesses have
missed that memo. You know, I feel like Mango, this
is one of those episodes where every time you're mentioning things,
I'm like, you've got somebody specific in mind. I know it,
but anyway, but you think about that group think mentality
(27:01):
that it's become the standard in most US schools as well.
I mean, you know, the idea that these off the
cuff interactions will produce these new or creative ideas, and
and that is probably true in some cases, but that
approach definitely discounts the creativity that comes with with being
in solitude sometimes. Yeah, I mean it's a shame too,
because you don't want kids to think their natural inclinations
(27:23):
are invalid. Like sometimes you see the parents of preschool
or elementary age students making apologies for their children's introversion,
you know, like I'm sorry he's so quiet or something
like that. I've been guilty of this in the past,
and and so many of these kids grow up making
the same apologies for themselves, as if they're innate personalities
are something they should apologize for. Yeah, that's true. But
(27:44):
you know, thanks to the work of Susan Kine and
of course others, that we we've been thinking about this,
and our society has been showing introverts I think a
lot more empathy in recent years, and you know, from
shirts like the one Tristan's rocking and rocking so well today,
your man. You think about the countless listicles and introvert
quizzes that we're all bombarded with and being an introvert
(28:08):
in America is now more accepted than any other time
in history. In fact, one nice side effect to the
culture becoming more accepting of introversion is that it opens
up these new career opportunities for introverts. And in fact,
have you heard this podcast that's called Hiding in the Bathroom?
I have not, so it's hosted by an introverted blogger
turned podcaster named Mora Aaron's Meal, and it's basically an
(28:31):
ongoing rebuttal to the idea that introversion is always a
weakness and extraversion is always a strength, which is so
weird and introvert podcaster, I feel like, who would have
heard of such a thing? I mean, that can't even
be possible, can it? I don't think so. Well, it
makes perfect sense that introverts might thrive, and I feel
like that. I mean, after all, podcasts walk that line
(28:52):
between private and public. I guess yeah. And I mean
it's the same thing we touched on earlier about how
some introverts actually make great public speaker is because they
enjoyed the opportunity to dig in and really think about
these topics and death, which is, you know, why everyone
should actually listen to Susan Kin's Ted Talk because it's
really really wonderful. Yeah. Yeah, Well, the Internet has also
(29:12):
been a boon for introverts. I mean, you get to
actively engage with so many different people, all from this
relative comfort and safety of your own home. What's interesting
is that introverts are finding new career opportunities away from
their screens too. This is according to Smithsonian, introverts are
in high demand on Mars, or at least on these
(29:33):
NASA missions to Mars because, according to a two thousand
fourteen report, researchers now believe that extroverts could be a
quote liability on long term space mission. Is that just
because they're afraid there would be too many criminals in
the MIDA, way too many criminals. Now, I mean, it's
it's really because we're talking about pinning up these talkative,
highly outgoing people and these isolated environments for years on
(29:56):
in so I mean, not only with these extroverted team
members everybody else crazy on board, but they'd also have
to contend with living in environment that really gives them
very little room for new activities or social interactions. So
you could see how it could be pretty tough for him. Yeah.
I mean my daughter is a total extrovert too, And
and before we put her in preschool, when she was
(30:17):
just at home, we thought she was like a husky
without work. She was just going around being destructive. I
couldn't figure out what to do with herself. And then
you put her in school and she's interacting with kids,
and suddenly she's just totally happy. Yeah. I mean, you're
definitely surrounded by extroverts in your life. But you know,
you think about the goal is to find the right
balance here and that sweet spot where introverts and extroverts
(30:41):
kind of even each other out to create this compatible
and functioning team. Yeah, that that feels like what we
should be striving for in general. But you know, at
the risk of going full cornball here, I I did
want to share some advice that Susan Caine put together
for the introverts out there. It's called the Quiet Revolution Manifesto,
and she has ten tips for everyone who is introverted,
(31:01):
and I thought I'd just share it here. So this
is how it goes. One there's a word for people
who are in their heads too much, thinkers. Two Solitude
is a catalyst for innovation. Three The next generation of
quiet kids can and must be raised to know their
own strengths. Four. Sometimes it helps to be a pretend extrovert.
(31:26):
There's always time to be quiet later. Five, But in
the long run, staying true to your temperament is the
key to finding work you love and work that matters. Six.
One genuine relationship is worth a fistful of business cards.
So I'm just gonna possible a second. This is actually
something that made me think differently about networking events, which
I always feel like I have to go to for
(31:47):
work and and make contacts and stuff, and I'm terrible
at them. But it is true, like if if you
sit in the corner but you make one good relationship
at these things, it does feel like the event has
been worthwhile. And that's sort of eased my my thinking
about this. But back to the list. Seven, it's okay
across the street to avoid making small talk. Eight. Quiet
(32:09):
leadership is not an oxymoron. Nine love is essential, garious
nous is optional, and ten in a gentle way, you
can shake the world. And that's a quote from Mahakma Gandhi.
You know what this is. This is inspiring me. I
feel like the introverts of the world should unite in
this case, I mean, of course separately in their own houses,
(32:29):
but exactly, and with that sort of amazing call to
action that you've just given, what do you say we
step out of our own shells and go head to
head and a fact off sounds good? H alright? So
here's a quick one. Did you know that guzzling coffee
(32:50):
before meeting my backfire on introverts looking for a little
bit of a brain boost is according to psychologist Brian
little Quote, after ingesting about two cups of coffee, extroverts
carry out task more efficiently, whereas introverts perform less. Well,
this deficit is magnified if the task they're engaging in
is quantitative and if it is done under time pressure.
(33:13):
That's really interesting. I've got to cut back my caffeine
and take So here's a funny one, also related to coffee. Uh,
there's a new machine in Singapore that's basically an office
coffee machine that withholds the coffee until two people have
a conversation in front of it. It's being billed as
the linked in of coffee machines, and the whole idea
(33:33):
is to facilitate more human interactions, especially in spaces where
everyone's communicating on slack. But for those of us who
are on the quieter end of the spectrum and really
just want our cup of coffee in the morning. It's
got a nickname. It's called the introvert torture device. Wow,
that sounds about right. That's pretty rough, all right. So
there's been more than a few introverted presidents in American history.
(33:56):
We of course think of Lincoln being one, and Obama
was one, but I think Calvin Coolidge might be the
most famous of them. So there's all these stories of
people visiting the White House and when they talked, he
would just stare at them. In fact, during one interview,
Coolidge said his strategy was basically to let people monologue
their way out of his office. As he put it,
(34:17):
many times I say yes or no to people, but
even that is too much. It winds them up for
twenty minutes more. I love that. You know, this is
one great story about Coolidge I have to share. So
we've talked about him and his weird practical jokes in
the past, like how he'd hit the buzzer to call
the Secret Service into his office. And then he'd hide
under the desk, which honestly just makes him sound like
(34:39):
an idiot. But I read he'd also often poured cream
into his saucer instead of his teacup, and then all
these people sitting around him at a meeting or whatever
would be confused. So after a while they'd do the same,
Like they thought, this is how the president likes to
drink his cream or whatever, and they didn't want to
him feel bad. They thought maybe he was sophisticated, so
like they did same thing, And after they'd all poured
(35:02):
their cream into their saucers, he just quietly placed the
saucer on the floor for his dogs to laugh at. Yeah.
I know, I think it's so terrific. But here's my fact.
So apparently we all get more introverted as we get older,
and you know, I guess this feels true, like we're
less interested in needing approval, we're less interested in making
(35:23):
friends and all that stuff. But apparently this is all
an evolutionary mechanism, so there's more need to make bonds
when you're younger than when you're older. But what's funny,
and Susan Kine points this out, is that relative levels
of introversion tend to stay the same. So she says, like,
if you go back to your high school reunion, for instance,
(35:44):
and you went and you ranked everyone in your class
into their levels of extro version, they all have the
same rank. But it's just that everyone would have shifted
together along the spectrum. Yeah, that's pretty interesting, but I mean,
I guess it also makes sense. Okay. Well, one of
our favorite kids authors of all time, Theodore Geisel a
k a. Doctor Seuss, did you know that he was
(36:05):
a total introvert. Oh that's interesting. I actually wouldn't have
figured that because you read about him in college and
he he was always at keg parties and things. Yeah, well,
at least in terms of how he liked to work.
I mean, he loved working in a quiet studio. And
in fact, you know, once he became pretty famous, he
rarely went out in public because he was worried that
kids would want him to be kind of like the
(36:26):
cat in the hat, like this big, over the top,
gregarious figure, and so he actually stayed in because he
was quote worried his fans would be disappointed by his
reserved personality. Oh that's that's almost sad, But I do
like that a person who's definitely had this outsized influence
on society and kids and just making people happy in general,
(36:47):
is actually this poster boy for introversion. So I think
we should quietly quietly tip our hats to Dr SEUs
and you can keep today's trophy. All right, Well, thanks
so much. This has been a really fun one. I
know we've got lots of introverts, it's and extroverts out
there who've been listening today, and we'd love to hear
some facts from you that we may have forgotten for
today's episode. You can always send those two part Time
(37:08):
Genius at how stuff Works dot com or hit us
up on Facebook or Twitter, but it's always thanks so
much for listening. Thanks again for listening. Part Time Genius
(37:30):
is a production of How Stuff Works and wouldn't be
possible without several brilliant people who do the important things
we couldn't even begin to understand. Tristan McNeil does the
editing thing. Noel Brown made the theme song and does
the mixy mixy sound thing. Jerry Rowland does the exact
producer thing. Gabeluesier is our lead researcher, with support from
the research Army including Austin Thompson, Nolan Brown and Lucas
Adams and Eve. Jeff Cook gets the show to your ears.
(37:52):
Good job, Eves. If you like what you heard, we
hope you'll subscribe, And if you really really like what
you've heard, maybe you could leave a good review for us.
Do we forget you? Jason who
I guess what will? What's that mango? So you know
how their names of groups of animals, like I think
a group of crows is a murder of crows, or
if you have a group of rhinoceros is called a crash,
not a squad, which you know, I guess Taylor Swift
or my son would call them. It's a crash. Just
one more similarity between Taylor Swift and your son. You did,
(00:22):
you forgot a couple of my favorites. So I've always
loved smack of jellyfish, and then of course a business
of ferrets, which I don't know why, but that's my favorite.
I think it is pretty great. So I found this
video online called how to Care for Your Introvert, which
claims that a pair of introverts is actually called an
awkward and a group of introverts is what you call
an angst. Is this real? Like, of course not, but
(00:44):
the whole video is joky and fun, and it points
out that introverts are rarely found together in the wild.
So these are mostly theoretical terms anyway. But as you know,
I'm definitely an introvert, and when I was in high school,
I almost used to bristle at this phrase, like all
great figures in history are seen as charismatic and big characters,
And I figured, you know, I could be fun at
a party and friends, I do things, So I figured
(01:07):
there was no way I should be lumped in with
the introverts. But then in college I quickly realized I
am such an introvert, especially when I compared myself to
my wife, who just crams in so many things into
our social calendar. It doesn't make any sense to me.
But you know, this whole thing has made me wonder
what does being an introvert really mean? Like do you
have to be strictly an introvert or an extrovert? Or
(01:28):
is there a spectrum? Do our brains actually behave differently?
And is it okay for me to hit the closed
door button on an elevator when someone's trying to catch
a ride with me, Because I would really love a
scientific excuse to say that's all right, let's dive in,
(02:05):
say their podcast listeners, Welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm
Will Pearson, and as always I'm joined by my good
friend Mangesh Ticketer. And on the other side of the
soundproof glass sporting yet another one of his classic T shirts.
This one just says introverts social club. Why go big
when you can go home? This is one of my
favorites of his. But that's our friend and producer Tristan McNeil,
(02:27):
And I've got to say, for an introverted guy, he
definitely speaks volumes with his shirts. Mango wouldn't agree. Definitely. Well,
you know, one thing I realized while doing the research
for today's show is that introverts can be pretty tough
to pin down in terms of personality. And you know,
and most of us here the term, we immediately think
of traits like sensitivity, or introspection or maybe quietness. I mean,
(02:51):
but the truth is, none of those things are guaranteed
signs of introversion. And that's because introversion is definitely a
spectrum rather than being this one set way of being.
So with that distinction in mind, I thought we could
use this episode as a way to kind of set
the record straight on what's probably one of the more
misunderstood aspects of human personality. We're gonna look at the
(03:12):
science behind introversion as well as how our society tends
to view introverted people. And we'll also run through some
of the pros and cons to really see how introverts
stack up against their more outgoing counterparts, and to kick
things off, I I thought we could talk a little
bit about what introversion is and also what it isn't.
So to start from the beginning, the terms introvert and
(03:32):
extrovert were first coined by Carl Jung way back in
He used them mainly as a way to distinguish between
two prevalent types of personality, those who feel more connected
to their inward thoughts and feelings and those who focus
primarily on the external world. And really, that was it,
Like there was no stigma, no rank attached to one
or another. You know. It wasn't like my wife who
(03:53):
tells me you introverts think you're so special. Like these
were just two different, equally valid ways of experiencing and
processing the world. And in the years since then, other
researchers have expanded on Young's ideas. Of course, there's no
catch all definition for the term, but there at least
a few things we can say about introverts in general.
For example, introverts tend to be good listeners, who think
(04:14):
before they speak. They enjoy time alone, They usually need
less stimulation than extroverts when it comes to entertainment. And
while they typically tire of small talk quickly, they can
talk to your ear off when they're given the chance
to dig into a topic they really care about, you know.
And and I think this was something that I've really
thought about in the past week or so as we've
been working on this topic. And that's the fact that
(04:35):
no one is really a hundred percent introverted or add
percent extroverted other than my year old Mammo. I think
she's pretty close to extrovert extrovert. She's definitely an extrovert.
But but we're all really more of a mix of
both personality types. And I've actually realized that about the
two of us. If if people are looking at the
two of us, most people would say you're an introvert
(04:57):
and I'm an extrovert. But really, as we've been doing
the research, you kind of realize there is this very
real mix. It's just that most of us lean harder
one way than the other, definitely, and that's why you'll
find like a quiet classmate or a coworker can actually
be a really engaging public speaker. And that's because of
this big cultural misconception that all introverts are incredibly shy
(05:18):
people who can never get up in front of an
audience without cracking under the pressure. But in reality, introversion
is a completely different thing than shyness. So I'm not
sure if you remember that groundbreaking book on introverts. It
was written by Susan Kine. It's called Quiet. It came
out about Yeah, it came out about five or six
years ago, and it's full of really insightful takes on introversion.
(05:39):
And one of the things Susan covers is that shyness
and being an introvert are driven by completely different forces.
So listen to how she explains it. Quote, shyness is
the fear of social disapproval or humiliation. Well, introversion is
a preference for environments that are not over stimulating. Shyness
is inherently painful, Introversion is not. I mean, I think
(06:01):
that's such an interesting quote from that, because those are
definitely two words that I think people have just assumed
kind of meant the same thing. But so think a
little bit more about it. So, shyness is more of
a reaction than a way of being, and so as
a result, you could even have an extrovert who might
really enjoy being around crowds, but actually it is definitely
(06:21):
afraid of being in the spotlight themselves. Absolutely, And in
the same way, it's possible to have an introvert who's
also shy. Since shinus is a learned behavior, an introvert
could develop a fear of social situations because they've been
made to feel like they don't measure up to extroverts.
So it could actually be this, I guess, the self
fulfilling prophecy. Well, and there's that same kind of misconception
(06:43):
about social anxiety. I mean, a lot of people would
assume that that condition goes hand in hand with introversion,
but it doesn't necessarily. I mean, social anxiety is is
similar to shyness, and that it's largely learned behavior, but
anxiety also tends to run in families, so is without
question a very real genetic lenk there as well. It's just,
(07:04):
you know, a more extreme form of self consciousness than
either shyness or introversion. And just trying to think of
an example of this, I mean, somebody with social anxiety
might feel totally incapable in a social situation, you know,
maybe they tell themselves they don't have anything to contribute,
or that people ignore or misunderstand them, so why bother
even saying anything. But I mean, that's generally not the
(07:27):
case with introverts. In fact, many of them are pretty
adept at kind of you know, you might say, turning
on their social skills when they need to. All right, well,
now that we know some of the things that introversion
is not, we should talk about what it actually is.
And like you alluded to at the top of the show,
that's kind of easier said than done because most popular
definitions fail to capture the range of ways that introversion
(07:48):
manifests in people like we tend to view introversion as
opposite to extroversion. So if an extroverts outspoken, then an
introvert is tight lip. This is kind of a dumbing
down of distinctions, and it's really nothing new. But thankfully
there's been a lot more research on the subject, and
that includes the work of a psychology professor at Wellesley
College named Jonathan Cheeks. So a few years back, he
(08:10):
surveyed a group of five adults and he asked them
everything from how often they dy dream, how important they
consider solitude for their well being all sorts questions like this,
and then Cheek used their responses to help develop what
he called the star chart. But you know you don't
have to worry about this, well, I know you've got
an aversion to astrology. This has nothing to do with
where mercury is rising. And it's actually a breakdown of
(08:35):
what Cheek considers the four types of introversion. So it's social, thinking, anxious,
and restraint. Even better, so we've got an acronym, and
you know I love a good acreatim So now I
feel like you deserve the chance to kind of give
us a rundown of what falls in each of those
those four categories. Sure, so the S is social introversion,
and this is probably what a lot of people would
(08:56):
think of when they're asked to describe introverts, right, Like,
it's basically a preference for small groups over large ones,
for more solitary activities, you know, thinking about things like
reading a book or watching a movie. Thinking introversion, which
is the T that's a little different. Introverts of this
type don't mind like big social events or these highly
stimulating environments, and that's mainly because they're really connected to
(09:21):
their interior world. You know, all that commotion around them
is really drowned out by all the introspection that they
go through in self reflection that occupies their minds. Yeah,
so these are people. I mean it kind of makes
me think of the phrase where we talk about people
being in their own little world. I guess, yeah, exactly.
And the example I read try to lay it out
in Harry Potter terms, which is of course very much appreciated.
(09:43):
And in that case, the socially awkward nevill would be
a social introvert, while a thinking introvert would be someone
more like Luna Lovegood, you know, who's sort of dreamily creative. Right,
that makes sense. I feel like everything makes more sense
when you can explain it in Harry Potter. So evidently
we'll try to do that with all future episodes. But
all right, so that's the S and the T. So
(10:03):
how about the A and the R. Right, So next
up is anxious introversion. As you might guess from the name,
this refers to introverts who have also some form of
social anxiety, and it's characterized by a tendency to kind
of overthink things and also to dwell on your mistakes
or perceived mistakes for well after the fact, I mean,
it really is, it can be crippling. And lastly, there's
(10:26):
the R and star, which refers to restrained or reserved.
And uh, these are people who take a little while
to get going. So instead of diving straight into a conversation,
a restrained introvert, might you know, hear what everyone has
to say, really take their time to absorb and think
on it and then offer their own thoughts. So pretty
much there to think first, act let people in the world. Okay,
(10:47):
that makes sense, And I feel like this four way
system definitely covers more ground than just the one blanket term.
But I have to also think that, you know, there's
an awful lot of overlap between the different types, Like
I can imagine somebody being a part thinking introvert and
part restrained introvert or some other combination of these four definitely,
and when she came up with this model, he really
(11:08):
wanted to expand the definition of introvert, not just replace
it with these four strict types. So, according to him,
plenty of introverts are actually a mix of all four types.
Al Right, well, I'd say we have a pretty good
grasp on what goes into being an introvert. So why
why don't we switch gears a little bit and talk
about the science of introversion Because it isn't by chance
that introverts and extroverts think differently. I mean, their brains
(11:29):
are actually different. For example, if you look at brain
scans of the two different types of brains, you'd see
a thicker prefrontal cortex in introverts when you compare them
to extroverts. And since that part of the brain is
connected with things like deep thought and planning, that bigger
cortex might actually explain why introverts tend to be less
impulsive than extroverts. Now, instead of processing new information directly,
(11:53):
these introverts first run it through the neural pathway that
deals with planning and long term memor Marie. And so
this is why introverts might actually take longer to make
a decision or former response, because they're comparing old and
new experiences and even weighing the potential outcomes while they
mold things over. And so this can slow the thinking
(12:15):
process down a pretty good bid actually, but it also
results in these carefully thought out responses and choices, and
it's not something that you always get with extroverts, which
is interesting. You know, I hadn't heard about that bigger
cortex is thing, But now I feel like I'm gonna
brag to everyone about how large my cortex. Probably I
knew that that was coming. I know you're gonna be
(12:35):
bragging about this non stuff. So actually, the differences between
introverted and extroverted brains that I've always heard about is
the way we respond to dopamine. And you know, we've
talked about this before. Dopamine is one of the neurotransmitters
that's closely tied to our sensation of pleasure, especially when
it comes to seeking rewards or taking risks, and uh,
Dopamine has similar effects on introverts and extroverts alike. When
(12:57):
it hits your brain, you feel more alert, you might
be more talkative, more motivated to take chances, and in fact,
introverts and extroverts even have the same amount of dopamine
in their bodies. The differences that dopamine triggers the reward
network much more strongly in the brains of extroverts. So
take something like earning a promotion at work that would
likely generate excitement in both kinds of people, right, But
(13:19):
the extrovert would feel that excitement to a much greater
degree than the introvert, which I don't know, when you
think about it, feels like kind of a raw deal
for the introverse. If it feels like they're getting jipped
on the whole dopamine thing, I guess, well, don't feel
too bad just yet, because there's actually another transmitter is
a newer transmitter called acetal coline, and it's also associated
(13:39):
with pleasure, but this one is the go to choice
for introverts looking to unwind, and unlike dopamine, acetal coline
generates these happy feelings for more inward focused activities, so
like thinking deeply about something or concentrating on one thing
for an extended period. And the chemical is tied to
the parasympathetic side of the nervous system, which is nicknamed
(14:00):
the throttledown or the rest and digest side. So if
Netflix and Chill is actually your pastime a choice, you
can thank a settle colin for that. All right. Well,
since we're getting into the comparisons between introverts and extroverts,
I feel like we should go through our list of
pros and cons and see how the two ways of
being kind of stack up against one another. Yeah, it
(14:23):
sounds fun to me. But first, let's take a quick break.
If you're listening to Part Time Genius and we're talking
(14:44):
about the not so subtle differences between introverts and extroverts, alright,
I go. So the first introvert advantage that I want
to talk about is their knack for being able to
read people, because when it comes to judging how another
person will think, or feel or act, start show that
introverts make better inferences than you know, extroverts. And that's
almost every single time. And we do know this thanks
(15:07):
to a study from a team of psychologists at Yale,
because they were asking more than a thousand participants about
how the average person would react in different social situations. So,
for example, this one comes straight from the test, and
here's the question. It's quote, people are usually overly confident
in the accuracy of their judgments true or false. I
(15:30):
mean I have to say true on that, but I
also feel like I might be being overconfident of course,
but actually you got the correct answer on this one.
But anyway, after the survey, the researchers rounded up the
highest scoring participants, and then they ran a series of
psychological tests, and they did this to determine which personality
(15:50):
traits these people had in common. Now, it's not surprising
that the respondents who made the most accurate judgments were
more likely to be intelligent and interested in problem solving
than those who scored poorly. But the more surprising finding
was that these same people were also more introverted. And
as one of the studies authors explains, quote, it could
(16:11):
be that the introverted people are spending more time observing
human nature than those who are busy interacting with others,
or they're more accurate and introspection because they have fewer
motivational biases. They don't view the world through rose colored
glasses as jovial and extroverted people do. Well, I mean
that does track with what we were saying about introverts
(16:32):
and how they have a tendency to think carefully and
be more observant of their surroundings. That's true, but I
don't want to get accused of serious bias here, so
I should point out that there was a drawback to
the introverts perception powers in this same study, because along
with that intelligence and curiosity, those highest scoring participants also
(16:52):
reported being more lonely and maybe having lower self esteem
than they're more extroverted counterparts, So it's not really an
across the board win for either one of these groups. Yeah,
and those kind of tradeoffs kind of pop up a
lot when you compare introverts and extroverts, And I mean,
it makes sense from an evolutionary perspective that both types
of people would excel and also lag in different ways.
(17:15):
You know, if one way of being was decidedly better
than the other, it feels like we still wouldn't have
both types of people in the world. And if you
think about how these different traits might have emerged in
the first place, it's easy to see their respective evolutionary advantages. Like, um,
if you took like prehistoric introverts, they likely would have
stuck close to the cave and avoided predators, which would
(17:36):
have increased their chances of not being eaten. And on
the other hand, like the extroverted caveman would have wandered
far and wide and and they would have had the
instincts to look for new types of food and shelter
and all of that. When shelter was in short supply
and that's a good point. I had not really thought
about that way. But I mean, what would you make
of the idea that introverts tend to be more melancholic?
(17:56):
I mean, I know I've heard before that extroverts or
happier people overall when they're measured against introverts, and that study,
for Meal, does seem to lend some credence to that theory.
I'm curious what your thoughts are on that. Yeah. So
I've actually seen those studies before too, and they're usually
center on that dopamine reaction that we talked about earlier.
And the truth is, happiness levels are pretty evenly matched
(18:18):
between introverts and extroverts when it comes I guess to
like inwardly focused activities, you know, watching TV, listening to music,
reading a book. But the real disparity arises when you
look at happiness levels during social activities and the ones
where some kind of reward is at stake, and in
those cases extroverts really have the advantage. But you know,
according to Susan Caine, this is more about how we
(18:41):
define happiness than it is about who's objectively happier. For example,
in in Western culture is like our own, we we
have a habit of viewing happiness as an active state.
It's sort of this explosive enthusiasm and excitement and giddiness.
And you know, that's not the case for Eastern cultures,
where happiness is seen as something more past of its
contentment and peacefulness and almost this feeling of being present
(19:04):
and focused in the moment. So Kine actually has a
quote on this. She says, when introverts talk about the
things that they most love to do, it's very often
activities like reading, hiking, cycling, being with their spouses, being
with their children. It's a quieter type of contentment that
often fuels introverts and that we don't pay proper attention to.
But speaking of proper attention, you know that might be
(19:27):
another reason that extroverts report such higher levels of happiness,
because they're less introspective, and because of that, they also
tend to overlook drawbacks and great experiences on a curve. So,
for example, an extrovert might say that they had a
great time at a party and not even mention things
like there wasn't enough food to go around or that
the sound system kept going out. But I guess feel
like you're using specific examples from things. These are things
(19:50):
that haven't at a party, I want to But you know,
an introvert would likely notice all these little details and uh,
you know, have a better sense of how it impacted
everyone's overall experience. But you know, in the end, it
could be that the introverts are more inclined to give
this less rosy and potentially more accurate assessment of how
happy they really are. I mean, I think that's probably true.
(20:14):
But I mean, back to what we were saying about
those trade offs, and to be fair, there are costs
to being an extrovert as well. I mean, we mentioned
that extroverts have this pensiont for risk taking, and so
as you might expect, that tendency can backfire in some
pretty damaging ways. I mean, as an example, extroverts are
more likely to be hospitalized for an accident or for
an illness than introverts are, and they're more likely to
(20:36):
develop criminal behaviors. They're more likely to get arrested. To like,
all of these things are true, that can't be true.
I mean, I feel like they're more likely to be arrested. Yeah,
this is why I'm trying to claim that I'm not
as much of an extrovert, as I once thought that
I was. I mean, but I guess it makes sense
if you're impulsive instead of a planner. But this does
come from the journal Comprehensive Psychiatry, and this was from
(20:59):
re search conducted at Johns Hopkins and at the Bloomberg
School of Public Health. So Mango, that sounds about as
legit as it gets. Yeah, that's so bizarre. But you know,
we've been focusing on differences. I I do want to
make sure that we mentioned some of the similarities between
introverts and extroverts, and this is a pretty unexpected one.
So you know how introverts need time alone to kind
(21:19):
of recharge their batteries after a social outing. Yeah, I
feel like this is always the definition I've always used
for introversion. And obviously these people can turn on their
extroverted behavior for a while, but they eventually start to
feel drained and just want to go home and relax.
But it turns out that too much socializing can actually
be exhausting for everyone, even extroverts. So a couple of
(21:41):
years ago, this finished research team found that the more
people were acting extroverted, the more they reported being in
a positive mood and feeling unfatigued in the moment. However,
after three hours of socializing, people report these higher levels
of fatigue. And this was true for both introverts and extroverts. Yeah,
I mean, but three hours of intense socializing that just
(22:01):
sounds exhausting. Like, I don't know, who wouldn't be tired
by that? Clinton, I think that's probably right. But I mean,
it is interesting that acting introverted netted the same positive
mood boost for both the introverts and the extroverts, at least,
you know, for a little while. But and I guess
it goes to show that humans really are social animals,
just two differing degrees. I guess. Yeah, I mean, that's
(22:23):
probably a safe that But before we move on, I
want to point out that not all people lean towards
extroversion or introversion. There's actually a third kind of person
called an ambivert, and these are the people who followed
right smack in the middle of the spectrum, and it's
actually way more common than I would have expected. I
thought these were like unicorns, but in fact, according to
one study, ambiverts makeup about thirty eight percent of the
(22:45):
population at any given time, It's kind of a weird
word though, don't you think, like called an ambivert but
really an insult? I mean, I am curious that, like,
where do ambiverts land in terms of the kinds of
advantages that we've been talking up. So the thing is
that fewer studies have been commissioned on anty verts is
partially because scientists love studying the extremes, but that there
(23:08):
was a management expert named Adam Grant who conducted a
study back in two thousand thirteen. He surveyed three forty
call center employees and found that two thirds of them
considered themselves neither introverted nor extroverted. And while you might
think the extroverts would have this clear advantage when it
came to talking on the phone for a living, Grant
actually found that it was the ambiverts who closed most
(23:30):
of the sales. And do we know why? That is
not entirely but Grants theories that ambiverts are just better
suited for both aspects of a sales call. You know,
they could do the talking, they could also do the listening,
and as he explained, ambiverts are quote likely to express
the sertiveness and enthusiasm to persuade and close the sale,
(23:51):
but are more inclined to listen and also are less
vulnerable to appearing too excited or overconfident. And I guess
it makes a lot of sense when you when you
think about it. But I'm glad you've broached this subject
of job proficiency though, because one thing that I was
looking into this week is how introverts are faring in
today's job market. I mean, it's it's not surprising that
(24:11):
they've had a rough go of things in the past,
both in terms of business and in society as a whole.
But I was really trying to get a sense of
whether things have gotten any easier for introverts in the
information age. Yeah, I mean, you think about that Moneyball example,
where people who ran funny or didn't look handsome enough
were considered less exciting prospects and then less valued, and
(24:32):
you can see how that might apply similarly to quiet employees.
But let's take another quick break and then dive back in. Okay, Well,
(24:54):
so I know you wanted to talk about how society
views introverts, and I think I have the perfect Susan
Caine quote to set the stage. You know, at the
beginning of her book Quiet, she writes, quote, today we
make room for a remarkably narrow range of personality styles.
We're told that to be great is to be bold,
to be happy is to be sociable. We see ourselves
as a nation of extroverts, which means that we have
(25:16):
lost sight of who we really are. Depending on which
study you consult, one third to one half of Americans
or introverts. In other words, one out of every two
or three people. You know, if you are not an
introvert yourself, you're surely raising, managing, married to, or coupled
with one. Yeah, I mean that's got to be true.
And it's clear that our country has a strong bias
(25:37):
towards extraversion. And actually this is something Kine experience firsthand.
I mean, she was an attorney and a negotiator before
she ever decided to get into writing, and she experienced
this all through her career. That Kane says she felt
ashamed of being an introvert. And not only did she
come to view her quietness and reserve as somewhat of
(25:58):
her professional disadvantage, she even considered it a behavioral defect,
I mean something to correct or overcome, which is really
unfortunate to think about. And really, it's no wonder she
felt this way because most schools and businesses there pressuring
us all our lives to be more extroverted and to
get out of our heads and complete work in groups
(26:18):
and complete you know, things as a team. So it's
it's not surprising that people would think this way. Yeah,
I mean, I hadn't thought about this before, but most
of our institutions are clearly set to cater to extroverts
and the kinds of stimulation they enjoy. Like if you
think about brainstorming meetings where the most upbeat person in
the office stands at a whiteboard and kind of coaxes
(26:39):
ideas out of everyone. There's at least forty years of
research that says individuals brainstorming on their own come up
with better ideas than groups do. But most businesses have
missed that memo. You know, I feel like Mango, this
is one of those episodes where every time you're mentioning things,
I'm like, you've got somebody specific in mind. I know it,
but anyway, but you think about that group think mentality
(27:01):
that it's become the standard in most US schools as well.
I mean, you know, the idea that these off the
cuff interactions will produce these new or creative ideas, and
and that is probably true in some cases, but that
approach definitely discounts the creativity that comes with with being
in solitude sometimes. Yeah, I mean it's a shame too,
because you don't want kids to think their natural inclinations
(27:23):
are invalid. Like sometimes you see the parents of preschool
or elementary age students making apologies for their children's introversion,
you know, like I'm sorry he's so quiet or something
like that. I've been guilty of this in the past,
and and so many of these kids grow up making
the same apologies for themselves, as if they're innate personalities
are something they should apologize for. Yeah, that's true. But
(27:44):
you know, thanks to the work of Susan Kine and
of course others, that we we've been thinking about this,
and our society has been showing introverts I think a
lot more empathy in recent years, and you know, from
shirts like the one Tristan's rocking and rocking so well today,
your man. You think about the countless listicles and introvert
quizzes that we're all bombarded with and being an introvert
(28:08):
in America is now more accepted than any other time
in history. In fact, one nice side effect to the
culture becoming more accepting of introversion is that it opens
up these new career opportunities for introverts. And in fact,
have you heard this podcast that's called Hiding in the Bathroom?
I have not, so it's hosted by an introverted blogger
turned podcaster named Mora Aaron's Meal, and it's basically an
(28:31):
ongoing rebuttal to the idea that introversion is always a
weakness and extraversion is always a strength, which is so
weird and introvert podcaster, I feel like, who would have
heard of such a thing? I mean, that can't even
be possible, can it? I don't think so. Well, it
makes perfect sense that introverts might thrive, and I feel
like that. I mean, after all, podcasts walk that line
(28:52):
between private and public. I guess yeah. And I mean
it's the same thing we touched on earlier about how
some introverts actually make great public speaker is because they
enjoyed the opportunity to dig in and really think about
these topics and death, which is, you know, why everyone
should actually listen to Susan Kin's Ted Talk because it's
really really wonderful. Yeah. Yeah, Well, the Internet has also
(29:12):
been a boon for introverts. I mean, you get to
actively engage with so many different people, all from this
relative comfort and safety of your own home. What's interesting
is that introverts are finding new career opportunities away from
their screens too. This is according to Smithsonian, introverts are
in high demand on Mars, or at least on these
(29:33):
NASA missions to Mars because, according to a two thousand
fourteen report, researchers now believe that extroverts could be a
quote liability on long term space mission. Is that just
because they're afraid there would be too many criminals in
the MIDA, way too many criminals. Now, I mean, it's
it's really because we're talking about pinning up these talkative,
highly outgoing people and these isolated environments for years on
(29:56):
in so I mean, not only with these extroverted team
members everybody else crazy on board, but they'd also have
to contend with living in environment that really gives them
very little room for new activities or social interactions. So
you could see how it could be pretty tough for him. Yeah.
I mean my daughter is a total extrovert too, And
and before we put her in preschool, when she was
(30:17):
just at home, we thought she was like a husky
without work. She was just going around being destructive. I
couldn't figure out what to do with herself. And then
you put her in school and she's interacting with kids,
and suddenly she's just totally happy. Yeah. I mean, you're
definitely surrounded by extroverts in your life. But you know,
you think about the goal is to find the right
balance here and that sweet spot where introverts and extroverts
(30:41):
kind of even each other out to create this compatible
and functioning team. Yeah, that that feels like what we
should be striving for in general. But you know, at
the risk of going full cornball here, I I did
want to share some advice that Susan Caine put together
for the introverts out there. It's called the Quiet Revolution Manifesto,
and she has ten tips for everyone who is introverted,
(31:01):
and I thought I'd just share it here. So this
is how it goes. One there's a word for people
who are in their heads too much, thinkers. Two Solitude
is a catalyst for innovation. Three The next generation of
quiet kids can and must be raised to know their
own strengths. Four. Sometimes it helps to be a pretend extrovert.
(31:26):
There's always time to be quiet later. Five, But in
the long run, staying true to your temperament is the
key to finding work you love and work that matters. Six.
One genuine relationship is worth a fistful of business cards.
So I'm just gonna possible a second. This is actually
something that made me think differently about networking events, which
I always feel like I have to go to for
(31:47):
work and and make contacts and stuff, and I'm terrible
at them. But it is true, like if if you
sit in the corner but you make one good relationship
at these things, it does feel like the event has
been worthwhile. And that's sort of eased my my thinking
about this. But back to the list. Seven, it's okay
across the street to avoid making small talk. Eight. Quiet
(32:09):
leadership is not an oxymoron. Nine love is essential, garious
nous is optional, and ten in a gentle way, you
can shake the world. And that's a quote from Mahakma Gandhi.
You know what this is. This is inspiring me. I
feel like the introverts of the world should unite in
this case, I mean, of course separately in their own houses,
(32:29):
but exactly, and with that sort of amazing call to
action that you've just given, what do you say we
step out of our own shells and go head to
head and a fact off sounds good? H alright? So
here's a quick one. Did you know that guzzling coffee
(32:50):
before meeting my backfire on introverts looking for a little
bit of a brain boost is according to psychologist Brian
little Quote, after ingesting about two cups of coffee, extroverts
carry out task more efficiently, whereas introverts perform less. Well,
this deficit is magnified if the task they're engaging in
is quantitative and if it is done under time pressure.
(33:13):
That's really interesting. I've got to cut back my caffeine
and take So here's a funny one, also related to coffee. Uh,
there's a new machine in Singapore that's basically an office
coffee machine that withholds the coffee until two people have
a conversation in front of it. It's being billed as
the linked in of coffee machines, and the whole idea
(33:33):
is to facilitate more human interactions, especially in spaces where
everyone's communicating on slack. But for those of us who
are on the quieter end of the spectrum and really
just want our cup of coffee in the morning. It's
got a nickname. It's called the introvert torture device. Wow,
that sounds about right. That's pretty rough, all right. So
there's been more than a few introverted presidents in American history.
(33:56):
We of course think of Lincoln being one, and Obama
was one, but I think Calvin Coolidge might be the
most famous of them. So there's all these stories of
people visiting the White House and when they talked, he
would just stare at them. In fact, during one interview,
Coolidge said his strategy was basically to let people monologue
their way out of his office. As he put it,
(34:17):
many times I say yes or no to people, but
even that is too much. It winds them up for
twenty minutes more. I love that. You know, this is
one great story about Coolidge I have to share. So
we've talked about him and his weird practical jokes in
the past, like how he'd hit the buzzer to call
the Secret Service into his office. And then he'd hide
under the desk, which honestly just makes him sound like
(34:39):
an idiot. But I read he'd also often poured cream
into his saucer instead of his teacup, and then all
these people sitting around him at a meeting or whatever
would be confused. So after a while they'd do the same,
Like they thought, this is how the president likes to
drink his cream or whatever, and they didn't want to
him feel bad. They thought maybe he was sophisticated, so
like they did same thing, And after they'd all poured
(35:02):
their cream into their saucers, he just quietly placed the
saucer on the floor for his dogs to laugh at. Yeah.
I know, I think it's so terrific. But here's my fact.
So apparently we all get more introverted as we get older,
and you know, I guess this feels true, like we're
less interested in needing approval, we're less interested in making
(35:23):
friends and all that stuff. But apparently this is all
an evolutionary mechanism, so there's more need to make bonds
when you're younger than when you're older. But what's funny,
and Susan Kine points this out, is that relative levels
of introversion tend to stay the same. So she says, like,
if you go back to your high school reunion, for instance,
(35:44):
and you went and you ranked everyone in your class
into their levels of extro version, they all have the
same rank. But it's just that everyone would have shifted
together along the spectrum. Yeah, that's pretty interesting, but I mean,
I guess it also makes sense. Okay. Well, one of
our favorite kids authors of all time, Theodore Geisel a
k a. Doctor Seuss, did you know that he was
(36:05):
a total introvert. Oh that's interesting. I actually wouldn't have
figured that because you read about him in college and
he he was always at keg parties and things. Yeah, well,
at least in terms of how he liked to work.
I mean, he loved working in a quiet studio. And
in fact, you know, once he became pretty famous, he
rarely went out in public because he was worried that
kids would want him to be kind of like the
(36:26):
cat in the hat, like this big, over the top,
gregarious figure, and so he actually stayed in because he
was quote worried his fans would be disappointed by his
reserved personality. Oh that's that's almost sad, But I do
like that a person who's definitely had this outsized influence
on society and kids and just making people happy in general,
(36:47):
is actually this poster boy for introversion. So I think
we should quietly quietly tip our hats to Dr SEUs
and you can keep today's trophy. All right, Well, thanks
so much. This has been a really fun one. I
know we've got lots of introverts, it's and extroverts out
there who've been listening today, and we'd love to hear
some facts from you that we may have forgotten for
today's episode. You can always send those two part Time
(37:08):
Genius at how stuff Works dot com or hit us
up on Facebook or Twitter, but it's always thanks so
much for listening. Thanks again for listening. Part Time Genius
(37:30):
is a production of How Stuff Works and wouldn't be
possible without several brilliant people who do the important things
we couldn't even begin to understand. Tristan McNeil does the
editing thing. Noel Brown made the theme song and does
the mixy mixy sound thing. Jerry Rowland does the exact
producer thing. Gabeluesier is our lead researcher, with support from
the research Army including Austin Thompson, Nolan Brown and Lucas
Adams and Eve. Jeff Cook gets the show to your ears.
(37:52):
Good job, Eves. If you like what you heard, we
hope you'll subscribe, And if you really really like what
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Do we forget you? Jason who
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