July 12, 2018 • 43 mins
Nowadays the number of U.S. states seems set in stone -- since 1959 the country has been comprised of fifty states, with one star for each on the flag. Yet in the not-so-distant past the concept of statehood was both contentious and fluid, with multiple groups vying for recognition of their own territorial claims. Tune in to hear the strange stories of would-be states across the continent, as the guys trace each state's rise and fall, along with their influence on the modern day.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
Yeah, yeah, welcome to the show Ridiculous Historians. As we
record this episode, there are currently fifty states in the Union.
(00:32):
Only fifty. Feels like there'd be more. It feels like
there should be more. And it's strange when we think
about how recently some of those states were added, you know,
like in our earlier podcast about Vermont, when we talked
about the former Kingdom of Hawaii. That's right. I think
wasn't it only in the fifties that those two were added?
(00:53):
I think Alaska and Hawaii were the last two by
the way, Yes, who are you man? Are? Oh? That's right,
I'm Ben and we are joined, of course, with our
super producer Casey Pegram hahai. I think was in um
when was it? Specifically? It was in the fifties. It
looks like it's fifty nine here. According to my handy
(01:14):
dandy research materials, Alaska and Hawaii were given statehood in
that same year. But we've got sixty years in the interim,
and and I haven't heard about any new states in
a minute. My last time I checked, I don't know
about you back. Yeah, it's a it's kind of a bummer, right,
because how exciting and strange. It must have been to
(01:35):
be alive at a time when an extra star too
was added to the flag. That's nuts. Yeah, I'd just
be irritated for all those people that have the flags
with the fifty stars and get at the flag. Now
the guy who owns the flag factor and you're the
woman who owns the flag factor doesn't seem tenable. Actually,
remember in a recent episode we had about Vermont, The
question I think I posed was how do you succeed? Exactly? Like,
(01:59):
what's the process for that? Is it even possible? And
we kind of came to the conclusion that yes, in
theory it's possible, but it doesn't really happen that way, right, No,
it doesn't. It's it's easy to propose the intention to succeed,
but it's difficult to succeed successfully. You are, that was
(02:21):
King My Man was tough. Are we also going to
get to check off a bunch of state episodes and
one go in this episode today? Holy smokes, do you
think it counts for I don't know it does. Because
our rules were going to be that they had to
be focused on one a little cheap to do it
this way, and they also have to be real States
spoiler to anyone who didn't read the title of today's episode.
Today we are exploring states that were almost states or
(02:47):
proposed ghost states. Yeah. I like that. Yeah, just how
about this the United States that never were there? We go,
that's good. That's got a touch of poetry to it.
I like that. Yeah, we along with some help from
our fantastic research associate Christopher Hasciotis of Louis Louis fame.
Does he have a sound effect yet? Maybe it's maybe
(03:08):
it's Louis Louis, I don't know. Whatever, man, let's leave
it the casey, but I think he needs one. And
now Pronto agreed. We found We started digging into this,
and we thought maybe we would find one or two
proposed states that for one reason or another didn't work out.
Not the case. The case. We found so many, so
(03:28):
many in fact, that we cannot We cannot do them
all justice in a single episode, or we might just
brush over them because they have a fun name. Some
of the stories behind these are a little drier than others,
and some of them are, you know what we would
consider the caliber of ridiculousness that we strive for on
this show every week. Yes, so what do you want
(03:50):
to kick off with first? No, I think it's fine
for us to sort of jump around here. Yeah, I
think so too. Across style criss cross will make you
want to jump around the line. I think in honor
of our dear friend F. Scott Benjamin, we should go
with Scott. Yes, it is true Scott. That was the
(04:12):
name of a state. The full name, I believe was
the Free and Independent State of Scott. Is that correct?
I think it such sounds like a pleasant place to live.
But I'm just I'm filtering that through the lens of
Scott Benjamin, who can do no wrong. If he was
a state, I would live there. Yeah. I would have
loved to be in that Scott state of mind. Yeah.
(04:34):
The state of Scott got its namesake from Scott County, Tennessee,
because the county itself, I believe, decided to seceed from
Tennessee in protest of Tennessee seceding from the United States.
The problem here is that they can that county government
(04:58):
unilaterally we succeed. It's not as if the rest of
Tennessee was on board with it and they wanted to
become an uncleaved community of the Union. But oddly enough,
it kind of sort of technically a little bit succeeded
for a while, succeeded, well, I guess maybe kind of.
(05:23):
We don't want to We don't want to confuse anybody,
the least of all me, because I get confused. I
get words mixed up with Yeah, but this is the
Civil War and the free and independent State of Scott
It sounds so so nice. It wasn't again founded during
the Civil War because Scott County wasn't down with Tennessee
(05:45):
joining the Confederacy, or they had no interest in joining
what's called the Confederate States of America, which for some
reason I never thought of it in those terms, but
obviously that makes sense. It's the states that wanted to
succeede from the Union and form their own country and
did and did unrecognized, but they did form a very
short lived eight eight six. That's right, you're talking about
(06:07):
the s Yeah, yeah, So Scott County was not down
with that because people most people that lived there were
not plantation holders, were slave owners, and they had the
majority um interest here, and so they just weren't down
with joining it, and so they wanted to remain a
Union state, which is like anomalous in a state like Tennessee,
which would have been firmly as a whole pro Confederacy, right.
(06:31):
You know, it's weird because it's relatively rare for us
to see entirely, entirely unanimous decisions. That's true. It's like
with the Maryland episode, where I assumed Maryland was going
to be more like New York or more like you know,
the North and be pro union, but in fact they
were kind of in the middle where there was a
contingent on both sides. But that's true everywhere. We start
(06:52):
to think geographically in terms of like everyone is a
certain way, and then we know that's not the case.
But one thing that the people of Scott County it
seems pretty unanimous on, was that they were again it.
They were not having it. On June eighth, eighteen sixty one,
they decide that they are going to succede. But then
a really fascinating thing happens because they made a proclamation
(07:15):
to the government of the state saying, yo, this is
what we're doing. We're out. And what did Tennessee do? Nothing? Nothing?
They ignored it. They when we say ignored, we have
to underline the incredible extreme to which they ignored this.
Not only did they not object, they didn't respond at all.
They were busy in the Civil War. And also, you
(07:38):
know this, this should be said, the state of Scott,
Scott County. It's like right on the northern border of
modern day Tennessee. That's mountain country. And it wasn't it
wasn't a real hot spot for the battles of the
Civil War. So it would have largely remained kind of
an unnoticed that's own little enclave, right, little island in
(07:58):
the stream. But man, you would think, okay, okay, they
would ignore it for until the war settled down, right,
like by eight seventy No, no, not the case, right
nineteen hundred. I think we gotta keep prices right in
this one. Alright, we're playing games here. It was six
we're right, yeah, Like that was like I was born in.
(08:21):
So there was this forgotten lost state of Scott, the independent,
the free and independence state of Scott, which sounds delightful, um,
But it's funny too because they actually had to request
of Tennessee to be readmitted, right, yes, and they held
a h This has such a nice ending. The State
(08:42):
of Tennessee even held a little party a little shin
dig welcoming Scott back into the state of Tennessee. The
thing is, though, like it goes both ways, because not
only did Tennessee not acknowledge them, it didn't really grant
them their state hood. So was it ever really a state? No,
(09:03):
it's just the proclamation just stayed on the books. But
think about it would be very difficult to enforce that
because to be your own state you have to have
all this infrastructure and legislature that not only did they
not have what was probably uncalled for given the population
and what kind of population do you think we're talking. Yeah,
as of two thousand and ten, the population of modern
(09:26):
day Scott County is twenty two thousand people. It surely
would have been less in the civil ward. Yes, certainly.
That is the story of Scott County, which I thought
was a really nice one. Yeah, a k a. The
the Free and Independent State of Scott just no formerly
known as the Free and Independent State of Scott. And
(09:48):
you can tell that we just fell in love with
saying that name. But that's far from the only state
we found. There were a couple that really caught your
interests to that you you were sending me some stuff
about off air, Yeah, think mainly there's a lot of
fun things about this one. But the first one for
me is the fact that the name as spelled not
You're never gonna say it right unless you read somewhere
(10:10):
and how to say it right. Um, So I'm gonna
say it how it looks on paper, and then I'm
gonna backtrack and find the pronunciation and say, I actually
swopos to pronounce it, but on paper it looks like
absaroka yep, but I believe it's abs sorca ab sorca
abs sorca. So like you know, if you're looking at pronunciation,
guys like ab lowerks dash capital sort for the for
(10:31):
the emphasis and then uh absorca um. And this revolves
around New Deal politics. What's new deal politics? Then New
Deal politics. It's it's an umbrella term that describes a
series of different programs and public works policies, and then
(10:52):
also financial reforms that occurred from three to nineteen thirty six.
Very dr yeah, very popular with the poor and disenfranchise,
largely unpopular with the wealthy and delete yeah. It's sort
of smacks of like socialism in a way, Like I
think it gets a bad rapper people sort of use
(11:13):
the the S word when describing it that they're you know,
trying to abuse it. Right. So, this particular state that
Never was revolves around New Deal politics and the fine
people of South Dakota, Montana and Wyoming. Right. So, Um,
there's a place called Sheridan, Wyoming. And back in nineteen
(11:36):
thirty nine, on the cusp of World War Two, you
had a state that was largely unconcerned or unaffected by
these New Deal policies that were being put in place.
And that's because they were an agrarian community. They they
you know, actually, the way it's described in this incredible
article from the New York Times called a state that
(11:58):
never was in Wyoming, Um, they grew grass, which sounds
really boring. Do you watch it grow like livestock? One
would have me exactly. They are described as having a
grass culture. Um. And there's a quote in this article
from a guy named Ken Kerns, who is a rancher
lived most of his life in this area, and he
said the grass culture people who make a living from
(12:20):
growing grass or from the animals that eat the grass.
And that was what the idea behind this Obsorca community
would be so you know, the folks of Wyoming, Um,
there were there's obviously two sides of this. There's a
more grarian side, and then you've got the southern part
where you've got the railroad and that's where like the
seat of government was, and apparently that's still You've got
(12:43):
the other side that would have been more republican. And
then the side that I'm talking about with the you know,
the city centers and the more um the equivalent of
an urban center in Wyoming, which isn't gonna be the
same as you know, Atlanta or New York or Los Angeles.
And those left wing liberals are controlling. They are a
lot of the states economy. They are. But apparently the
other folks and the other part of the country had
(13:04):
been more typically Republican and they felt like FDR maybe
could offer them something because, like you said, Ben, the
depression had hit everyone and there was concern for what
what are we gonna do to help, you know, make
lemons into lemonade? So what happened? Can you take us
(13:27):
back to the explosive tipping point moment in Sheridan, Wyoming, Yeah,
I can. Um. Here is this guy by the name
of A. R. Swickerd um and he uh had had
a career in baseball. Um, I don't know if he
was in like the farm leagues or I don't think
he was in the majors, but i've i've i've read
(13:48):
him describes there's not a whole heck of a lot
about this guy. But he also was something called a
street commissioner. You know what the street commissioner has been? Yeah, man,
they commissioned streets. Okay, well it's it's like a you know,
this is conjecture. If you are a street commissioner, please
write in and tell us about your day to day job.
From what our understanding. From my understand, at least, a
(14:10):
street commissioner is kind of a manager of municipal affairs
to some degree, right, I know, that's very vague. Yeah,
I've got here on a kind of a career site.
A job as a street commissioner falls under the broader
career category of general and operations managers. Still vague. Sort
of a city planner, I think, maybe kind of type
(14:30):
city official exactly. So, this guy SWICKERD SWICKERD SWAGGERD Jimmy
swagger SWICKERD A R. SWICKERD. Former baseball player former street commissioner.
Now we know a little bit what that is. Um.
He was kind of fed up with the way the
money that was coming into improvement projects that the New
Deal supported, like infrastructure and generated jobs by doing these
(14:52):
big infrastructure improvements, whether it was roadways or railroads or
anything like that. And that kind of infrastructure in Wyoming
was on the other side went to the fat cat
fat cats exactly. And it just there was a sense
that the working types, like the you know, the rangers,
that weren't getting any of this cash. They weren't getting
(15:13):
any benefit from this New Deal stuff, so they were
like what gives And this guy Swickert was able to
kind of key in on that and start this movement. Right. Yeah,
he appointed himself governor. Uh. He said that this area
parts of Montana, South Dakota, and Wyoming a really strange
selection of the parts, but it makes sense politically, politically
(15:35):
and also in terms of like the the agg focus
the demographics. So he declared Sheridan, Wyoming, the capital of
Absoroka and s it's weird, it's it's counter into it.
I keep I keep squeezing that second. Oh well, it did.
Like in the New York Times article, at the very first,
(15:56):
very first first PARAGRAPHIC gives it to you in full
parentheses with the ab Sorca. And it is an Indian term,
Native American term from tribe right, meaning children of the
large beaked bird. So he just says, I'm governor. Now
Sheridan is the capital. Come to me, people of this
new state and tell me your grievances. And they did.
(16:19):
They did, and it, um it started to pick up
a little steam, right. But you know, like things tend
to do with these high minded pie in the sky,
you know, protesting kind of situations. It didn't quite work
out the way he was planning. They got license plates
though they had a beauty pageant. They had some stuff
going on. Did you say beauty pageant? Already bade beauty
(16:40):
page This is this is the this is the great work,
as we I think described in a previous episode. Um
and yeah, but miss miss Absorca of nine would apparently
be the last. But they did host a diplomatic visit
from the King of Norway, classic supporter Sorka. Now, according
(17:00):
to history, and it's interesting because this name Swiacker didn't
just make it up. It is the name of a
pre existing mountain range and one of the main reasons
that we know about this today is due to, oddly enough,
the New Deal, the Federal Writers Project, which was part
of the FDR programs. That's right, But when when did
(17:21):
this all fall apart? They never got approval or what
do you call it? They didn't submit it to Congress,
the citizens. It was very much a grassroots movement, because
there was a grass culture talked about earlier. So that story,
I I don't know, I find it inspiring. The determination, ambition,
and sense of grandiosity it takes to one day get
(17:43):
up and say, you know what, here's a new thing.
I'm the governor. Oh, here's a good little little bit
to wrap this one up on Um. A couple of
quotes from Swicker and that really show that he had
some he had some cones, he had he had some swagger. Um,
he said, of of this effort, of this potential agglomerating
of of these territories into a new state, he said, Um,
(18:05):
when this thing was really starting to heat up, had
some real legs and some hot movement was getting some
press coverage. He said, we will make our own laws,
just like the Wyoming legislators do. In the big hotel
at Cheyenne, Right, uh, he said, I told the governor
of our sister state to the south of Buffalo that
we had no warlike designs and that the rumors we
(18:26):
might succeed by force were erroneous. We ab absor Absorodin's
Abstodins does stay sick here in the article. So maybe
that's a misspeak. Um, But we are a peace loving lot,
and while we think that we really need the state
of Absorca, we are not inclined to revolution, right, so
(18:47):
we're not going to go into a state of war
over this now because they didn't have an army, it
would have been a fool's errand my friend, yeah, but
this is only one example, right. We again, as we
said at the top, which now in retrospect, I think
it was prescient and smart of us to put this in.
(19:07):
As we said at the top, we can't do all
of the would be states justice, But what do you say,
toll we we spend some time running through some of
the high points. It'll be a test of our brevity.
What's your favorite? On a personal level, I and I
think a lot of you can agree with me out here.
The would be state of superior It was a movement
(19:28):
that began in eighteen fifty eight to make Michigan's Upper
Peninsula a different state. And the reason I think that's
interesting is because growing up, like many kids in the US,
I kept thinking, why are these two masses of land?
They're completely separate. Why are they one state? It utterly
makes sense because even the people that live there talk
(19:48):
about the UP, you know, and the is there a
lower peninsula per Penincila? Yeah, the up Upper Peninsula? But
what what do they call the other one? They call
it that, that's just the LPs LP were not Michigan
or when Michiganders. Those are people who look at Michigan
but no. And and and also like it's proximity to Canada
is really interesting, and it totally when you look at
(20:09):
it on the map, the UP as they call it,
does have its own distincts look and borders. Yeah, and
this state again, this proposal was put on ice because
of the Civil War. Other people tried to propose the
same thing in eight and even as recently as nineteen
sixty two, when the Macinac Bridge was open and connected
(20:29):
the peninsula to the rest of Michigan, people said, okay,
it can be one state. What about you what's something
really stood out to you? Well, last thing, though, is
with that one? Is it? It's come up multiple times,
and a big part of why it was considered viable
was because the Upper Peninsula was a huge supplier of
copper in the eighteen sixties. But then, of course, like
like you said, the Civil War kind of ground things
(20:51):
to a hall. But the conversation did come up a
few other times. Um, I am a fan of tex Lahoma.
Oh yes, uh, where the corn is as high as
a portmanteau's eye and the wind goes sweeping down the
I don't know, something else some other portmant too. Yeah,
we have to find like three different geographically. We don't
(21:12):
have time. We're trying to laundry lit right into us
with your suggestions. Tell me a little bit about tex Lahoma,
my friend. Well, my friend, it's all about the the automobile.
Are you familiar with this innovation? Vaguely? I've heard good things. Yeah,
you're still driving the Monte Carlo. I do, I do
drive the Money Carlo. Well, Um, this is around World
War two, our pre world. It's just pre World War
(21:33):
two cars were hot commodity. Everybody had to have one.
But the road systems were pretty terrible right before the
Interstates constructed, before the New Deal we're talking about earlier, right,
big big change there. Um, so, especially in more rural parts. Um, like,
you have your Texas and your Oklahoma Northern and western respectively,
(21:56):
horrible horrible road conditions right, um, and no one was
doing anything about it. So there was this proposal to
combine these regions into Texahoma. Is that a portmanteau? Yeah? Yes, okay,
good good good good. Um So yeah, technically, if there
was this new state and they were able to control
(22:16):
their own interests, they would, in theory have the ability
to improve their their infrastructure, um, separate from the again,
the fat cats in Austin or Oklahoma City, those overfed
badgers in the in the big towns. Yeah, they felt
(22:37):
like they would be able to have better representation. Let's
local level. Well, there there's a problem, right, you could
see the need for local legislation. That all sounds well
and good, but the chief problem, at least according to
a pretty funny article we found on mental flaws called
law States Texlahoma, the chief problem was that the proposals
(22:59):
to split Texas would make the residents of the new
state no longer Texans, and that was a big problem
to the voting popular. It's not gonna fly a Texan.
That's a that's a badge of honor, right, my friend.
For that reason, people would say, well, we are you
know what, we want our own thing, but we still
want to be Texans. Yeah for sure. So okay, in
(23:20):
the interest of getting to an amazing segment we have
coming up, I just want to list off a few
more kind of silly names without giving you much of
anything on them, and you can go look up. Let's
go back and forth. Let's do it, all right, Uh,
desiret the Salt Lake City Basin mid eighteen forties, Church
of Latter Day Saints, Boom, and Nika Jack. I love that.
(23:41):
Just leave that, just just you know, do you do
your homework, Nika Jack. Transylvania true story, Yeah, the unofficial
fourteenth colony completely separated from Vlad the Impaler. And and
then the incredibly unpoetic name del Marva. Yeah, del Marva
just kind of kind of clunky, right, all right, listen,
(24:03):
we have squandered too much time, um, so much fun
stuff here. You should look some of these up for yourself.
But we do have one really really cool in my opinion,
and been a long time coming. Segment here the third
installment ever of extra credit. Yes, ridiculous Historians, it is
(24:26):
time for extra credit, where we go a little bit
above and beyond what you would see in a typical episode. Uh.
You see, folks, we're not just looking at these would
be states from an abstract perspective. We went out and
got ourselves somewhat of an expert. Fellow, ridiculous Historians, we
(24:47):
would like to introduce you to retired Colonel Gladwin Bolland, who,
among many achievements, uh, happens to be my dad. Okay, man,
I thought you were gonna like not even mention the
fact that he was your dad, and that would have
been a little strange, but I was gonna roll with it. Okay.
I thought we weren't going to mention that I was
a retired colonel, but well, you know, I'll go with both. Okay,
(25:08):
all right, Dad, Well I hope I haven't given away
too much of of your past adventures. But first, Nolan,
I would like to thank you so much for coming
onto the show. Now, our family is native to Tennessee, right,
that's correct, and we have we have a story in
Tennessee history about a state that almost existed and isn't
(25:31):
around today. Could you tell us a little bit about
this place. Well, it was called the state of Franklin, Uh,
and really existed from about seventeen ninety four to seventeen
ninety nine, about four and a half years. But before
we get started on that, let me say two historians
out there that might be listening in. Uh, look, if
(25:53):
I'll leave out something, trust me, You're right I did
because we couldn't possibly cover all you clearly never listened
to the show before this is m trust me. Everyone
understands that this is a convoluted miss. Also, Uh, if
you think that I didn't get something right, well that
(26:14):
depends on who you are, if you're a Tiptonite or
if you're a frank So I'm intrigued, So let me
say some more about that in a few minutes. But uh,
just suffice to say now that history is written by
who the winners. There's no clear winner here. There's also
(26:35):
no state of Franklin. That's right, that's right, but there
is a state of Tennessee. Now let me set the
stage here. Look, you know, we don't appreciate the world
we live in right now. Imagine if you lived in
a land where the government wasn't a clear thing. There
were multiple governments, some multiple people in charge who had
(26:57):
authority win and where, and there were lots of players.
There was the United States, Oh, but it really was
the first confederacy because it was organized then under the
Articles of Confederation. Then there was the state of North Carolina.
Then over the mountain lands there were the people called
(27:20):
the Tipton Knights, who followed a man named Tipton, oddly
enough in a sheriff named pew Uh. And then the
people who were called Frank's because they wanted the state
of Franklin. And they were led by a guy named
John Severe. So they're not called the Severians. That would
be pretty severe, now, wouldn't it. So anyhow, Uh, But
(27:43):
let's go back even further than that to UH seventy
is the Revolutionary War. And in the South uh the
uh British forces didn't always use British forces. They used Tories.
There was a major who was given the order of
(28:05):
Major Fergusson got the order to organize a group of
Tories and to march through South Carolina into North Carolina.
A group of people came over to meet these guys
called the over the Mountain Men, which meant they lived
over the mountain from established North Carolina into the Free counties,
(28:29):
and they met Ferguson's people at the Battle of King's Mountain,
killed Ferguson and just whiped the slate clean, killed many
fellow American known as Tories, who of course supported the king.
That was the first time that North Carolina population really
understood that there were people living on the other side
(28:51):
of the Appalachian Mountains that were also North Carolina citizen.
Didn't have the Internet, you know, no intervet, nobody called
nobody road, you know. So that was the first time
that they even really realized there were people over there.
That's interesting concept, but until they makes sense. Yeah, they
were just that isolated. So it was the over the
(29:12):
Mountain Men that sort of introduced this land on the
other side of the mountain. Then after the war, four
US forms the Confederation and what is everybody doing there?
Being broke the war was expensive, so North Carolina said, hey,
(29:33):
tell you what, We'll give back all the land that's
on the other side of the mountains twenty nine million
acres and take that as our payment of our part
of the debt of the warden. Ok Okay, you know
what the United States did with that good deal? What
did they do? Nothing? They left it there, really, so
(29:56):
the people on the other side of the mountain were
getting nervous, right there was even tall so uh the
US might even sell it to Spain or France to
get the money. So I would they expected to have
done with it, Like you said, they did nothing with it.
What should they have done with it? Well, you know,
I didn't live there, so I don't know. But there
(30:18):
you go. There's some up there now, just to develop
it in some way, in some way. But the reason
the US didn't want to do anything with it they
thought the cost of governing that piece of land would
be more than it would be worth. There wasn't any
There wasn't any uh great, nobody had any great ideas
of what to do with that whind so they didn't
(30:39):
do anything about it. North Carolina took it back, okay,
in the same year. But you know what the people
that lived over there said, Gee, you know, we're not
some of them at least said we're not real comfortable
with this. They want to give us away? Then nobody
wants us. They want to sell it. Nobody wants us.
So what did they do? They did a while A
(31:00):
lot of people didn't know as they formed their own government.
Really okay, they said local representation is best, and so
in Jonesboro, the town of Jonesborough, they formed their own government.
Now forget the fact that two blocks down the road,
literally two blocks North Carolina had an administrative office to
(31:22):
run that area. And maybe it was a rough couple
of blocks. Yeah, I guess it was. But they also
drafted their own constitution, which had some good ideas like
no lawyers, no preachers, and no doctors could hold office.
Really interesting. Yeah, uh, it was never adopted by that
(31:42):
they drafted that constant. Yeah, well, you know, it was
a good idea. Isn't part of the story too, though,
that there was kind of a conspiracy where certain officials
like had something to gain by the sale of this land.
I was reading somewhere that when it was sold, it
was actually sold to high ranking members of the state
government and then given to the U. S Government with
(32:03):
the understanding that people would actually profit from it. There
was always a backdoor deal there, of course, And again
that's some of the details that I'm leaving out here
because even that story drills down a long way. In
seventeen five, this group did apply for statehood. The state
of Franklin applied for statehood. Would that be to the
(32:24):
federal government, not federal government, Confederated government, and the Confederated
government turned it down with only seven states approving. They
needed to thirds, and so technically I guess that would
have been about nine of the thirteen states would have
had to approve, but only seven approved, so they didn't.
(32:48):
They didn't get the statehood in seventeen eighty five. If
they had, they would have been the fourteenth state of
the Union, which is crazy because from what you're describing,
if we look at the math, that means is that
the state of Franklin was two votes away from existing.
That's correct at that point. And John Severe was really
disappointed with that, so he wrote a letter to who
(33:11):
Ben Franklin. Hey, Dr Franklin, Uh, could you use some
of your influence? And Franklin wrote back, and it's really
interesting with the language they used in those days, but
he basically said, look, I really appreciate it that she
names state after me, but I got no clue how
(33:33):
to help you out. So they were trying to appeal
to him with flattery by naming the state. Absolutely that
that was part of the play there. He did say,
if I think of anything that might help you out,
then yeah, I'll I'll holler back at you. Because he
was a man with a pretty high opinion of himself.
I bet I bet he could be applied with that
(33:54):
kind of flattery. But if he didn't have anything to offer,
he didn't have any to offer. Well, you know, there
was the idea of how much political capital that was
going to cost him. I'm sure it was in his head.
So the country was just sort of drifting at that point,
particularly this over the Mountain people, and so they just
sort of kind of operated as their own independent government
(34:17):
parallel to the North Carolina government. So just no one cared,
No one cared. But we had another one of those
in and the ones we were talking about earlier, where Scott,
I think it was independent independent state of Scott existed
for like a hundred and twenty seven years. Because it
was Tennessee as well, they didn't care. Nobody noticed, well
(34:39):
what happened here. They did move their state capital to Greenville.
The Franklin folks did, And the reason they did that
was because they finally decided that being two blocks down
from the North Carolina office was not that good a
deal with Jonesborough, so they moved to Franklin. But in
(35:00):
this all came to a head because John Severe was
forever in trouble. He wouldn't pay North Carolina taxes. So
this sheriff named Pugh seized his property uh on behalf
of North Carolina, which unfortunately included some slaves. John Severe
wanted that back. Uh. He organized an army and attacked
(35:23):
the uh Tipton Nights at Tipton's farm near Johnson City,
Tennessee and what it would become Johnson City, Tennessee. And
this battle went on for a raging ten minutes, about
a hundred guys against a hundred guys, of which three
(35:43):
Tipton Knights were killed. Uh Tipton wanted the head of
John Severe, or even better, the head of John Severe Jr.
All of who participated in that battle. Um. But what
happened is John Severe withdrew and the next year things
just drifted along. Next year, here come the Indians. Okay,
(36:06):
there was a guy named Dragon Canoe who was an
Indian chief that never agreed with anything with even with
the other uh Native Americans. The Cherokee were as segmented
as everybody else. But they started attacking the white settlements
(36:26):
and Severe needed help because his people were getting beat up.
Couldn't get any help from North Carolina. The United States
has broke. He asked Spain for loan. Then he asked
Spain to just take over the area, just running like
an unclave. That's right, It wasn't that kind of what
they were fearing in the first place, was like having
(36:49):
a foreign control over Yeah, this lands, absolutely, but you
know what they feared, Indians more, care the American natives more.
When you first said the name of this this Native American,
I pictured dragon canoe like a like a dragon canoe.
He was dragging the canoe very basically, yes, but at
(37:09):
any right, what ended up happening is that North Carolina
arrested John Severe for treason basically. Okay, I mean that's
probably what would happen if I or Noels successfully tried
to sell some piece of like if we tried to
sell Atlanta to uh listening to my country to I
(37:30):
don't know Norway, whoever has the best offer. I don't
think the Norwegians would be pretty agreeable to do deal with.
They seemed pretty relatively chill. Nobody tell them about the
summer here. Well, there you go. At the end of
all of this push and shove, they couldn't really take
the head of John Severe. So you mean this figuratively
(37:53):
or like they wanted that that his head the tip
Many of the tip to Nites wanted to hang him. Okay,
But what ended up is that North Carolina allowed John
Severe and the rest of the Franks to swear allegiance
to North Carolina. And that ended the state of Franklin,
(38:14):
but it didn't end the idea of a separate state.
And so down in Severe count what is now Severe County,
they formed the Lesser Franklin government called Lesser Franklin, and
they did that strictly to campaign for a new state.
Oh wow. And so in the end, what North Carolina
(38:39):
accepted that Rhode Island approved the constitution in seventeen ninety.
So we went under the new constitution. Uh, and the
territory that would eventually be called Tennessee, and that's another
story we don't have time for became the sixteenth state.
(39:00):
So you're gonna ask me who was the fourteenth state,
a free republic called Vermont voted to join the Union.
That's right, we did an episode of OK and then
and then the fifteenth state was Kentucky, just because they
got their stuff together sooner. Now let me let me
close this out with just a few facts. Ben, you
(39:23):
don't know this, but you can be a member of
the First Families of Franklin. Oh cool? Wait, does that
like you personally been won? Get you it won't get
you a Hamburger anywhere, And get you a little certificate,
one of which your mom has because, uh, some of
(39:45):
your ancestors were lived in East Tennessee during the state
of Franklin. Can I also nominate friends and family for membership?
Not sure, I'm gonna write to him. No, only you
want to be an honorary member of this I love honorary.
Done well, they won't let me in because I'm I'm
a my loungeon. You know. We came in sevent hundred
(40:08):
to Newman's Ridge. Uh the over the Mountain Men that
I talked about. Who was among those? But one of
the commanders was a guy named John Severe The over
a Mountain Men. Another soldier in that group was John Crockett.
His son Davey is better known now. Also speaking better
(40:33):
known would be who's the best known, uh person from
Severe County? Not John Severe, as someone who the first
governor of Tennessee was Very few people would say John Severe,
but that is who it was. But if you were
to say Dolly Pardon, yes, Dolly Pardon grew up in
(40:57):
Severe County. Is a descendant of John Severe here and
a member of the descendants of John Severe. And one
last thing, John Severe did lose his head. Really in
the nineteen fifties, my dad made a statue. My dad
was a sculptor. He made a ten ft marble statue
(41:18):
of John Severe. For the longest time it was in
a bank, but in the nineteen eighties that got moved
to the Knoxville, Tennessee World's Fair Park. During a University
of Tennessee pledge week, someone cut the head off of
John Severe. That's messed up. It's a one hundred thousand
(41:39):
dollar statue, but the head went missing. So how much
you thing the head would have been worth on its own,
who knows. But it's in some play in some fraternity
house probably, I guess. And nothing again along with some
Pilford like road sign. Yeah, it's probably out there, but uh,
you know, the Tipton Knights would be happy to hear.
(42:00):
Or that John Silvere fondly lost his head and what's that.
That's about all I got to say. Man, that's that
was plenty and all fascinating, and we are really grateful.
I'm personally grateful for you coming and telling us the story. Yeah,
thanks so much for coming on the show. Dad. This
has been extra credit and that at the end of
(42:24):
the segment, but not the show. We hope you'll join
us next time for another episode of Ridiculous History. I'm
not even sure what we're doing yet. I think let's
just leave the teaser off this time and keep people's
imagination trying. Let's keep the mystery, you know. In the meantime,
we would like to hear from you. We want to
hear your stories about local states that never were in
your neck of the Global Woods. You can find us
(42:45):
on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. Of course. If you want
to hang out with your fellow Ridiculous historians who are,
in our collective opinion, the best part of the show,
visit us on Ridiculous Historians. I just send us a
request to join the group, and we will likely infirm
said request unless you are some sort of war criminal, right, right, right.
(43:05):
And of course, as we like to say at the
end of every episode, it's time to give some credit
and some thanks to super producer Casey Pegram, researcher Extraordinary
Christopher Hasciotis, Alex Williams, who composed our theme music. Ben,
Thank you, Heyl. I'm so glad you brought this up.
Thank you for being you, and and and thank you,
(43:26):
m thank what should I call you? Gladwin? Is that okay?
That works for me? Thank you Gladwin. Thanks for joining
us on the show today. Yeah, it was a lot
of fun and everybody will see you next time.
Yeah, yeah, welcome to the show Ridiculous Historians. As we
record this episode, there are currently fifty states in the Union.
(00:32):
Only fifty. Feels like there'd be more. It feels like
there should be more. And it's strange when we think
about how recently some of those states were added, you know,
like in our earlier podcast about Vermont, when we talked
about the former Kingdom of Hawaii. That's right. I think
wasn't it only in the fifties that those two were added?
(00:53):
I think Alaska and Hawaii were the last two by
the way, Yes, who are you man? Are? Oh? That's right,
I'm Ben and we are joined, of course, with our
super producer Casey Pegram hahai. I think was in um
when was it? Specifically? It was in the fifties. It
looks like it's fifty nine here. According to my handy
(01:14):
dandy research materials, Alaska and Hawaii were given statehood in
that same year. But we've got sixty years in the interim,
and and I haven't heard about any new states in
a minute. My last time I checked, I don't know
about you back. Yeah, it's a it's kind of a bummer, right,
because how exciting and strange. It must have been to
(01:35):
be alive at a time when an extra star too
was added to the flag. That's nuts. Yeah, I'd just
be irritated for all those people that have the flags
with the fifty stars and get at the flag. Now
the guy who owns the flag factor and you're the
woman who owns the flag factor doesn't seem tenable. Actually,
remember in a recent episode we had about Vermont, The
question I think I posed was how do you succeed? Exactly? Like,
(01:59):
what's the process for that? Is it even possible? And
we kind of came to the conclusion that yes, in
theory it's possible, but it doesn't really happen that way, right, No,
it doesn't. It's it's easy to propose the intention to succeed,
but it's difficult to succeed successfully. You are, that was
(02:21):
King My Man was tough. Are we also going to
get to check off a bunch of state episodes and
one go in this episode today? Holy smokes, do you
think it counts for I don't know it does. Because
our rules were going to be that they had to
be focused on one a little cheap to do it
this way, and they also have to be real States
spoiler to anyone who didn't read the title of today's episode.
Today we are exploring states that were almost states or
(02:47):
proposed ghost states. Yeah. I like that. Yeah, just how
about this the United States that never were there? We go,
that's good. That's got a touch of poetry to it.
I like that. Yeah, we along with some help from
our fantastic research associate Christopher Hasciotis of Louis Louis fame.
Does he have a sound effect yet? Maybe it's maybe
(03:08):
it's Louis Louis, I don't know. Whatever, man, let's leave
it the casey, but I think he needs one. And
now Pronto agreed. We found We started digging into this,
and we thought maybe we would find one or two
proposed states that for one reason or another didn't work out.
Not the case. The case. We found so many, so
(03:28):
many in fact, that we cannot We cannot do them
all justice in a single episode, or we might just
brush over them because they have a fun name. Some
of the stories behind these are a little drier than others,
and some of them are, you know what we would
consider the caliber of ridiculousness that we strive for on
this show every week. Yes, so what do you want
(03:50):
to kick off with first? No, I think it's fine
for us to sort of jump around here. Yeah, I
think so too. Across style criss cross will make you
want to jump around the line. I think in honor
of our dear friend F. Scott Benjamin, we should go
with Scott. Yes, it is true Scott. That was the
(04:12):
name of a state. The full name, I believe was
the Free and Independent State of Scott. Is that correct?
I think it such sounds like a pleasant place to live.
But I'm just I'm filtering that through the lens of
Scott Benjamin, who can do no wrong. If he was
a state, I would live there. Yeah. I would have
loved to be in that Scott state of mind. Yeah.
(04:34):
The state of Scott got its namesake from Scott County, Tennessee,
because the county itself, I believe, decided to seceed from
Tennessee in protest of Tennessee seceding from the United States.
The problem here is that they can that county government
(04:58):
unilaterally we succeed. It's not as if the rest of
Tennessee was on board with it and they wanted to
become an uncleaved community of the Union. But oddly enough,
it kind of sort of technically a little bit succeeded
for a while, succeeded, well, I guess maybe kind of.
(05:23):
We don't want to We don't want to confuse anybody,
the least of all me, because I get confused. I
get words mixed up with Yeah, but this is the
Civil War and the free and independent State of Scott
It sounds so so nice. It wasn't again founded during
the Civil War because Scott County wasn't down with Tennessee
(05:45):
joining the Confederacy, or they had no interest in joining
what's called the Confederate States of America, which for some
reason I never thought of it in those terms, but
obviously that makes sense. It's the states that wanted to
succeede from the Union and form their own country and
did and did unrecognized, but they did form a very
short lived eight eight six. That's right, you're talking about
(06:07):
the s Yeah, yeah, So Scott County was not down
with that because people most people that lived there were
not plantation holders, were slave owners, and they had the
majority um interest here, and so they just weren't down
with joining it, and so they wanted to remain a
Union state, which is like anomalous in a state like Tennessee,
which would have been firmly as a whole pro Confederacy, right.
(06:31):
You know, it's weird because it's relatively rare for us
to see entirely, entirely unanimous decisions. That's true. It's like
with the Maryland episode, where I assumed Maryland was going
to be more like New York or more like you know,
the North and be pro union, but in fact they
were kind of in the middle where there was a
contingent on both sides. But that's true everywhere. We start
(06:52):
to think geographically in terms of like everyone is a
certain way, and then we know that's not the case.
But one thing that the people of Scott County it
seems pretty unanimous on, was that they were again it.
They were not having it. On June eighth, eighteen sixty one,
they decide that they are going to succede. But then
a really fascinating thing happens because they made a proclamation
(07:15):
to the government of the state saying, yo, this is
what we're doing. We're out. And what did Tennessee do? Nothing? Nothing?
They ignored it. They when we say ignored, we have
to underline the incredible extreme to which they ignored this.
Not only did they not object, they didn't respond at all.
They were busy in the Civil War. And also, you
(07:38):
know this, this should be said, the state of Scott,
Scott County. It's like right on the northern border of
modern day Tennessee. That's mountain country. And it wasn't it
wasn't a real hot spot for the battles of the
Civil War. So it would have largely remained kind of
an unnoticed that's own little enclave, right, little island in
(07:58):
the stream. But man, you would think, okay, okay, they
would ignore it for until the war settled down, right,
like by eight seventy No, no, not the case, right
nineteen hundred. I think we gotta keep prices right in
this one. Alright, we're playing games here. It was six
we're right, yeah, Like that was like I was born in.
(08:21):
So there was this forgotten lost state of Scott, the independent,
the free and independence state of Scott, which sounds delightful, um,
But it's funny too because they actually had to request
of Tennessee to be readmitted, right, yes, and they held
a h This has such a nice ending. The State
(08:42):
of Tennessee even held a little party a little shin
dig welcoming Scott back into the state of Tennessee. The
thing is, though, like it goes both ways, because not
only did Tennessee not acknowledge them, it didn't really grant
them their state hood. So was it ever really a state? No,
(09:03):
it's just the proclamation just stayed on the books. But
think about it would be very difficult to enforce that
because to be your own state you have to have
all this infrastructure and legislature that not only did they
not have what was probably uncalled for given the population
and what kind of population do you think we're talking. Yeah,
as of two thousand and ten, the population of modern
(09:26):
day Scott County is twenty two thousand people. It surely
would have been less in the civil ward. Yes, certainly.
That is the story of Scott County, which I thought
was a really nice one. Yeah, a k a. The
the Free and Independent State of Scott just no formerly
known as the Free and Independent State of Scott. And
(09:48):
you can tell that we just fell in love with
saying that name. But that's far from the only state
we found. There were a couple that really caught your
interests to that you you were sending me some stuff
about off air, Yeah, think mainly there's a lot of
fun things about this one. But the first one for
me is the fact that the name as spelled not
You're never gonna say it right unless you read somewhere
(10:10):
and how to say it right. Um, So I'm gonna
say it how it looks on paper, and then I'm
gonna backtrack and find the pronunciation and say, I actually
swopos to pronounce it, but on paper it looks like
absaroka yep, but I believe it's abs sorca ab sorca
abs sorca. So like you know, if you're looking at pronunciation,
guys like ab lowerks dash capital sort for the for
(10:31):
the emphasis and then uh absorca um. And this revolves
around New Deal politics. What's new deal politics? Then New
Deal politics. It's it's an umbrella term that describes a
series of different programs and public works policies, and then
(10:52):
also financial reforms that occurred from three to nineteen thirty six.
Very dr yeah, very popular with the poor and disenfranchise,
largely unpopular with the wealthy and delete yeah. It's sort
of smacks of like socialism in a way, Like I
think it gets a bad rapper people sort of use
(11:13):
the the S word when describing it that they're you know,
trying to abuse it. Right. So, this particular state that
Never was revolves around New Deal politics and the fine
people of South Dakota, Montana and Wyoming. Right. So, Um,
there's a place called Sheridan, Wyoming. And back in nineteen
(11:36):
thirty nine, on the cusp of World War Two, you
had a state that was largely unconcerned or unaffected by
these New Deal policies that were being put in place.
And that's because they were an agrarian community. They they
you know, actually, the way it's described in this incredible
article from the New York Times called a state that
(11:58):
never was in Wyoming, Um, they grew grass, which sounds
really boring. Do you watch it grow like livestock? One
would have me exactly. They are described as having a
grass culture. Um. And there's a quote in this article
from a guy named Ken Kerns, who is a rancher
lived most of his life in this area, and he
said the grass culture people who make a living from
(12:20):
growing grass or from the animals that eat the grass.
And that was what the idea behind this Obsorca community
would be so you know, the folks of Wyoming, Um,
there were there's obviously two sides of this. There's a
more grarian side, and then you've got the southern part
where you've got the railroad and that's where like the
seat of government was, and apparently that's still You've got
(12:43):
the other side that would have been more republican. And
then the side that I'm talking about with the you know,
the city centers and the more um the equivalent of
an urban center in Wyoming, which isn't gonna be the
same as you know, Atlanta or New York or Los Angeles.
And those left wing liberals are controlling. They are a
lot of the states economy. They are. But apparently the
other folks and the other part of the country had
(13:04):
been more typically Republican and they felt like FDR maybe
could offer them something because, like you said, Ben, the
depression had hit everyone and there was concern for what
what are we gonna do to help, you know, make
lemons into lemonade? So what happened? Can you take us
(13:27):
back to the explosive tipping point moment in Sheridan, Wyoming, Yeah,
I can. Um. Here is this guy by the name
of A. R. Swickerd um and he uh had had
a career in baseball. Um, I don't know if he
was in like the farm leagues or I don't think
he was in the majors, but i've i've i've read
(13:48):
him describes there's not a whole heck of a lot
about this guy. But he also was something called a
street commissioner. You know what the street commissioner has been? Yeah, man,
they commissioned streets. Okay, well it's it's like a you know,
this is conjecture. If you are a street commissioner, please
write in and tell us about your day to day job.
From what our understanding. From my understand, at least, a
(14:10):
street commissioner is kind of a manager of municipal affairs
to some degree, right, I know, that's very vague. Yeah,
I've got here on a kind of a career site.
A job as a street commissioner falls under the broader
career category of general and operations managers. Still vague. Sort
of a city planner, I think, maybe kind of type
(14:30):
city official exactly. So, this guy SWICKERD SWICKERD SWAGGERD Jimmy
swagger SWICKERD A R. SWICKERD. Former baseball player former street commissioner.
Now we know a little bit what that is. Um.
He was kind of fed up with the way the
money that was coming into improvement projects that the New
Deal supported, like infrastructure and generated jobs by doing these
(14:52):
big infrastructure improvements, whether it was roadways or railroads or
anything like that. And that kind of infrastructure in Wyoming
was on the other side went to the fat cat
fat cats exactly. And it just there was a sense
that the working types, like the you know, the rangers,
that weren't getting any of this cash. They weren't getting
(15:13):
any benefit from this New Deal stuff, so they were
like what gives And this guy Swickert was able to
kind of key in on that and start this movement. Right. Yeah,
he appointed himself governor. Uh. He said that this area
parts of Montana, South Dakota, and Wyoming a really strange
selection of the parts, but it makes sense politically, politically
(15:35):
and also in terms of like the the agg focus
the demographics. So he declared Sheridan, Wyoming, the capital of
Absoroka and s it's weird, it's it's counter into it.
I keep I keep squeezing that second. Oh well, it did.
Like in the New York Times article, at the very first,
(15:56):
very first first PARAGRAPHIC gives it to you in full
parentheses with the ab Sorca. And it is an Indian term,
Native American term from tribe right, meaning children of the
large beaked bird. So he just says, I'm governor. Now
Sheridan is the capital. Come to me, people of this
new state and tell me your grievances. And they did.
(16:19):
They did, and it, um it started to pick up
a little steam, right. But you know, like things tend
to do with these high minded pie in the sky,
you know, protesting kind of situations. It didn't quite work
out the way he was planning. They got license plates
though they had a beauty pageant. They had some stuff
going on. Did you say beauty pageant? Already bade beauty
(16:40):
page This is this is the this is the great work,
as we I think described in a previous episode. Um
and yeah, but miss miss Absorca of nine would apparently
be the last. But they did host a diplomatic visit
from the King of Norway, classic supporter Sorka. Now, according
(17:00):
to history, and it's interesting because this name Swiacker didn't
just make it up. It is the name of a
pre existing mountain range and one of the main reasons
that we know about this today is due to, oddly enough,
the New Deal, the Federal Writers Project, which was part
of the FDR programs. That's right, But when when did
(17:21):
this all fall apart? They never got approval or what
do you call it? They didn't submit it to Congress,
the citizens. It was very much a grassroots movement, because
there was a grass culture talked about earlier. So that story,
I I don't know, I find it inspiring. The determination, ambition,
and sense of grandiosity it takes to one day get
(17:43):
up and say, you know what, here's a new thing.
I'm the governor. Oh, here's a good little little bit
to wrap this one up on Um. A couple of
quotes from Swicker and that really show that he had
some he had some cones, he had he had some swagger. Um,
he said, of of this effort, of this potential agglomerating
of of these territories into a new state, he said, Um,
(18:05):
when this thing was really starting to heat up, had
some real legs and some hot movement was getting some
press coverage. He said, we will make our own laws,
just like the Wyoming legislators do. In the big hotel
at Cheyenne, Right, uh, he said, I told the governor
of our sister state to the south of Buffalo that
we had no warlike designs and that the rumors we
(18:26):
might succeed by force were erroneous. We ab absor Absorodin's
Abstodins does stay sick here in the article. So maybe
that's a misspeak. Um, But we are a peace loving lot,
and while we think that we really need the state
of Absorca, we are not inclined to revolution, right, so
(18:47):
we're not going to go into a state of war
over this now because they didn't have an army, it
would have been a fool's errand my friend, yeah, but
this is only one example, right. We again, as we
said at the top, which now in retrospect, I think
it was prescient and smart of us to put this in.
(19:07):
As we said at the top, we can't do all
of the would be states justice, But what do you say,
toll we we spend some time running through some of
the high points. It'll be a test of our brevity.
What's your favorite? On a personal level, I and I
think a lot of you can agree with me out here.
The would be state of superior It was a movement
(19:28):
that began in eighteen fifty eight to make Michigan's Upper
Peninsula a different state. And the reason I think that's
interesting is because growing up, like many kids in the US,
I kept thinking, why are these two masses of land?
They're completely separate. Why are they one state? It utterly
makes sense because even the people that live there talk
(19:48):
about the UP, you know, and the is there a
lower peninsula per Penincila? Yeah, the up Upper Peninsula? But
what what do they call the other one? They call
it that, that's just the LPs LP were not Michigan
or when Michiganders. Those are people who look at Michigan
but no. And and and also like it's proximity to Canada
is really interesting, and it totally when you look at
(20:09):
it on the map, the UP as they call it,
does have its own distincts look and borders. Yeah, and
this state again, this proposal was put on ice because
of the Civil War. Other people tried to propose the
same thing in eight and even as recently as nineteen
sixty two, when the Macinac Bridge was open and connected
(20:29):
the peninsula to the rest of Michigan, people said, okay,
it can be one state. What about you what's something
really stood out to you? Well, last thing, though, is
with that one? Is it? It's come up multiple times,
and a big part of why it was considered viable
was because the Upper Peninsula was a huge supplier of
copper in the eighteen sixties. But then, of course, like
like you said, the Civil War kind of ground things
(20:51):
to a hall. But the conversation did come up a
few other times. Um, I am a fan of tex Lahoma.
Oh yes, uh, where the corn is as high as
a portmanteau's eye and the wind goes sweeping down the
I don't know, something else some other portmant too. Yeah,
we have to find like three different geographically. We don't
(21:12):
have time. We're trying to laundry lit right into us
with your suggestions. Tell me a little bit about tex Lahoma,
my friend. Well, my friend, it's all about the the automobile.
Are you familiar with this innovation? Vaguely? I've heard good things. Yeah,
you're still driving the Monte Carlo. I do, I do
drive the Money Carlo. Well, Um, this is around World
War two, our pre world. It's just pre World War
(21:33):
two cars were hot commodity. Everybody had to have one.
But the road systems were pretty terrible right before the
Interstates constructed, before the New Deal we're talking about earlier, right,
big big change there. Um, so, especially in more rural parts. Um, like,
you have your Texas and your Oklahoma Northern and western respectively,
(21:56):
horrible horrible road conditions right, um, and no one was
doing anything about it. So there was this proposal to
combine these regions into Texahoma. Is that a portmanteau? Yeah? Yes, okay,
good good good good. Um So yeah, technically, if there
was this new state and they were able to control
(22:16):
their own interests, they would, in theory have the ability
to improve their their infrastructure, um, separate from the again,
the fat cats in Austin or Oklahoma City, those overfed
badgers in the in the big towns. Yeah, they felt
(22:37):
like they would be able to have better representation. Let's
local level. Well, there there's a problem, right, you could
see the need for local legislation. That all sounds well
and good, but the chief problem, at least according to
a pretty funny article we found on mental flaws called
law States Texlahoma, the chief problem was that the proposals
(22:59):
to split Texas would make the residents of the new
state no longer Texans, and that was a big problem
to the voting popular. It's not gonna fly a Texan.
That's a that's a badge of honor, right, my friend.
For that reason, people would say, well, we are you
know what, we want our own thing, but we still
want to be Texans. Yeah for sure. So okay, in
(23:20):
the interest of getting to an amazing segment we have
coming up, I just want to list off a few
more kind of silly names without giving you much of
anything on them, and you can go look up. Let's
go back and forth. Let's do it, all right, Uh,
desiret the Salt Lake City Basin mid eighteen forties, Church
of Latter Day Saints, Boom, and Nika Jack. I love that.
(23:41):
Just leave that, just just you know, do you do
your homework, Nika Jack. Transylvania true story, Yeah, the unofficial
fourteenth colony completely separated from Vlad the Impaler. And and
then the incredibly unpoetic name del Marva. Yeah, del Marva
just kind of kind of clunky, right, all right, listen,
(24:03):
we have squandered too much time, um, so much fun
stuff here. You should look some of these up for yourself.
But we do have one really really cool in my opinion,
and been a long time coming. Segment here the third
installment ever of extra credit. Yes, ridiculous Historians, it is
(24:26):
time for extra credit, where we go a little bit
above and beyond what you would see in a typical episode. Uh.
You see, folks, we're not just looking at these would
be states from an abstract perspective. We went out and
got ourselves somewhat of an expert. Fellow, ridiculous Historians, we
(24:47):
would like to introduce you to retired Colonel Gladwin Bolland, who,
among many achievements, uh, happens to be my dad. Okay, man,
I thought you were gonna like not even mention the
fact that he was your dad, and that would have
been a little strange, but I was gonna roll with it. Okay.
I thought we weren't going to mention that I was
a retired colonel, but well, you know, I'll go with both. Okay,
(25:08):
all right, Dad, Well I hope I haven't given away
too much of of your past adventures. But first, Nolan,
I would like to thank you so much for coming
onto the show. Now, our family is native to Tennessee, right,
that's correct, and we have we have a story in
Tennessee history about a state that almost existed and isn't
(25:31):
around today. Could you tell us a little bit about
this place. Well, it was called the state of Franklin, Uh,
and really existed from about seventeen ninety four to seventeen
ninety nine, about four and a half years. But before
we get started on that, let me say two historians
out there that might be listening in. Uh, look, if
(25:53):
I'll leave out something, trust me, You're right I did
because we couldn't possibly cover all you clearly never listened
to the show before this is m trust me. Everyone
understands that this is a convoluted miss. Also, Uh, if
you think that I didn't get something right, well that
(26:14):
depends on who you are, if you're a Tiptonite or
if you're a frank So I'm intrigued, So let me
say some more about that in a few minutes. But uh,
just suffice to say now that history is written by
who the winners. There's no clear winner here. There's also
(26:35):
no state of Franklin. That's right, that's right, but there
is a state of Tennessee. Now let me set the
stage here. Look, you know, we don't appreciate the world
we live in right now. Imagine if you lived in
a land where the government wasn't a clear thing. There
were multiple governments, some multiple people in charge who had
(26:57):
authority win and where, and there were lots of players.
There was the United States, Oh, but it really was
the first confederacy because it was organized then under the
Articles of Confederation. Then there was the state of North Carolina.
Then over the mountain lands there were the people called
(27:20):
the Tipton Knights, who followed a man named Tipton, oddly
enough in a sheriff named pew Uh. And then the
people who were called Frank's because they wanted the state
of Franklin. And they were led by a guy named
John Severe. So they're not called the Severians. That would
be pretty severe, now, wouldn't it. So anyhow, Uh, But
(27:43):
let's go back even further than that to UH seventy
is the Revolutionary War. And in the South uh the
uh British forces didn't always use British forces. They used Tories.
There was a major who was given the order of
(28:05):
Major Fergusson got the order to organize a group of
Tories and to march through South Carolina into North Carolina.
A group of people came over to meet these guys
called the over the Mountain Men, which meant they lived
over the mountain from established North Carolina into the Free counties,
(28:29):
and they met Ferguson's people at the Battle of King's Mountain,
killed Ferguson and just whiped the slate clean, killed many
fellow American known as Tories, who of course supported the king.
That was the first time that North Carolina population really
understood that there were people living on the other side
(28:51):
of the Appalachian Mountains that were also North Carolina citizen.
Didn't have the Internet, you know, no intervet, nobody called
nobody road, you know. So that was the first time
that they even really realized there were people over there.
That's interesting concept, but until they makes sense. Yeah, they
were just that isolated. So it was the over the
(29:12):
Mountain Men that sort of introduced this land on the
other side of the mountain. Then after the war, four
US forms the Confederation and what is everybody doing there?
Being broke the war was expensive, so North Carolina said, hey,
(29:33):
tell you what, We'll give back all the land that's
on the other side of the mountains twenty nine million
acres and take that as our payment of our part
of the debt of the warden. Ok Okay, you know
what the United States did with that good deal? What
did they do? Nothing? They left it there, really, so
(29:56):
the people on the other side of the mountain were
getting nervous, right there was even tall so uh the
US might even sell it to Spain or France to
get the money. So I would they expected to have
done with it, Like you said, they did nothing with it.
What should they have done with it? Well, you know,
I didn't live there, so I don't know. But there
(30:18):
you go. There's some up there now, just to develop
it in some way, in some way. But the reason
the US didn't want to do anything with it they
thought the cost of governing that piece of land would
be more than it would be worth. There wasn't any
There wasn't any uh great, nobody had any great ideas
of what to do with that whind so they didn't
(30:39):
do anything about it. North Carolina took it back, okay,
in the same year. But you know what the people
that lived over there said, Gee, you know, we're not
some of them at least said we're not real comfortable
with this. They want to give us away? Then nobody
wants us. They want to sell it. Nobody wants us.
So what did they do? They did a while A
(31:00):
lot of people didn't know as they formed their own government.
Really okay, they said local representation is best, and so
in Jonesboro, the town of Jonesborough, they formed their own government.
Now forget the fact that two blocks down the road,
literally two blocks North Carolina had an administrative office to
(31:22):
run that area. And maybe it was a rough couple
of blocks. Yeah, I guess it was. But they also
drafted their own constitution, which had some good ideas like
no lawyers, no preachers, and no doctors could hold office.
Really interesting. Yeah, uh, it was never adopted by that
(31:42):
they drafted that constant. Yeah, well, you know, it was
a good idea. Isn't part of the story too, though,
that there was kind of a conspiracy where certain officials
like had something to gain by the sale of this land.
I was reading somewhere that when it was sold, it
was actually sold to high ranking members of the state
government and then given to the U. S Government with
(32:03):
the understanding that people would actually profit from it. There
was always a backdoor deal there, of course, And again
that's some of the details that I'm leaving out here
because even that story drills down a long way. In
seventeen five, this group did apply for statehood. The state
of Franklin applied for statehood. Would that be to the
(32:24):
federal government, not federal government, Confederated government, and the Confederated
government turned it down with only seven states approving. They
needed to thirds, and so technically I guess that would
have been about nine of the thirteen states would have
had to approve, but only seven approved, so they didn't.
(32:48):
They didn't get the statehood in seventeen eighty five. If
they had, they would have been the fourteenth state of
the Union, which is crazy because from what you're describing,
if we look at the math, that means is that
the state of Franklin was two votes away from existing.
That's correct at that point. And John Severe was really
disappointed with that, so he wrote a letter to who
(33:11):
Ben Franklin. Hey, Dr Franklin, Uh, could you use some
of your influence? And Franklin wrote back, and it's really
interesting with the language they used in those days, but
he basically said, look, I really appreciate it that she
names state after me, but I got no clue how
(33:33):
to help you out. So they were trying to appeal
to him with flattery by naming the state. Absolutely that
that was part of the play there. He did say,
if I think of anything that might help you out,
then yeah, I'll I'll holler back at you. Because he
was a man with a pretty high opinion of himself.
I bet I bet he could be applied with that
(33:54):
kind of flattery. But if he didn't have anything to offer,
he didn't have any to offer. Well, you know, there
was the idea of how much political capital that was
going to cost him. I'm sure it was in his head.
So the country was just sort of drifting at that point,
particularly this over the Mountain people, and so they just
sort of kind of operated as their own independent government
(34:17):
parallel to the North Carolina government. So just no one cared,
No one cared. But we had another one of those
in and the ones we were talking about earlier, where Scott,
I think it was independent independent state of Scott existed
for like a hundred and twenty seven years. Because it
was Tennessee as well, they didn't care. Nobody noticed, well
(34:39):
what happened here. They did move their state capital to Greenville.
The Franklin folks did, And the reason they did that
was because they finally decided that being two blocks down
from the North Carolina office was not that good a
deal with Jonesborough, so they moved to Franklin. But in
(35:00):
this all came to a head because John Severe was
forever in trouble. He wouldn't pay North Carolina taxes. So
this sheriff named Pugh seized his property uh on behalf
of North Carolina, which unfortunately included some slaves. John Severe
wanted that back. Uh. He organized an army and attacked
(35:23):
the uh Tipton Nights at Tipton's farm near Johnson City,
Tennessee and what it would become Johnson City, Tennessee. And
this battle went on for a raging ten minutes, about
a hundred guys against a hundred guys, of which three
(35:43):
Tipton Knights were killed. Uh Tipton wanted the head of
John Severe, or even better, the head of John Severe Jr.
All of who participated in that battle. Um. But what
happened is John Severe withdrew and the next year things
just drifted along. Next year, here come the Indians. Okay,
(36:06):
there was a guy named Dragon Canoe who was an
Indian chief that never agreed with anything with even with
the other uh Native Americans. The Cherokee were as segmented
as everybody else. But they started attacking the white settlements
(36:26):
and Severe needed help because his people were getting beat up.
Couldn't get any help from North Carolina. The United States
has broke. He asked Spain for loan. Then he asked
Spain to just take over the area, just running like
an unclave. That's right, It wasn't that kind of what
they were fearing in the first place, was like having
(36:49):
a foreign control over Yeah, this lands, absolutely, but you
know what they feared, Indians more, care the American natives more.
When you first said the name of this this Native American,
I pictured dragon canoe like a like a dragon canoe.
He was dragging the canoe very basically, yes, but at
(37:09):
any right, what ended up happening is that North Carolina
arrested John Severe for treason basically. Okay, I mean that's
probably what would happen if I or Noels successfully tried
to sell some piece of like if we tried to
sell Atlanta to uh listening to my country to I
(37:30):
don't know Norway, whoever has the best offer. I don't
think the Norwegians would be pretty agreeable to do deal with.
They seemed pretty relatively chill. Nobody tell them about the
summer here. Well, there you go. At the end of
all of this push and shove, they couldn't really take
the head of John Severe. So you mean this figuratively
(37:53):
or like they wanted that that his head the tip
Many of the tip to Nites wanted to hang him. Okay,
But what ended up is that North Carolina allowed John
Severe and the rest of the Franks to swear allegiance
to North Carolina. And that ended the state of Franklin,
(38:14):
but it didn't end the idea of a separate state.
And so down in Severe count what is now Severe County,
they formed the Lesser Franklin government called Lesser Franklin, and
they did that strictly to campaign for a new state.
Oh wow. And so in the end, what North Carolina
(38:39):
accepted that Rhode Island approved the constitution in seventeen ninety.
So we went under the new constitution. Uh, and the
territory that would eventually be called Tennessee, and that's another
story we don't have time for became the sixteenth state.
(39:00):
So you're gonna ask me who was the fourteenth state,
a free republic called Vermont voted to join the Union.
That's right, we did an episode of OK and then
and then the fifteenth state was Kentucky, just because they
got their stuff together sooner. Now let me let me
close this out with just a few facts. Ben, you
(39:23):
don't know this, but you can be a member of
the First Families of Franklin. Oh cool? Wait, does that
like you personally been won? Get you it won't get
you a Hamburger anywhere, And get you a little certificate,
one of which your mom has because, uh, some of
(39:45):
your ancestors were lived in East Tennessee during the state
of Franklin. Can I also nominate friends and family for membership?
Not sure, I'm gonna write to him. No, only you
want to be an honorary member of this I love honorary.
Done well, they won't let me in because I'm I'm
a my loungeon. You know. We came in sevent hundred
(40:08):
to Newman's Ridge. Uh the over the Mountain Men that
I talked about. Who was among those? But one of
the commanders was a guy named John Severe The over
a Mountain Men. Another soldier in that group was John Crockett.
His son Davey is better known now. Also speaking better
(40:33):
known would be who's the best known, uh person from
Severe County? Not John Severe, as someone who the first
governor of Tennessee was Very few people would say John Severe,
but that is who it was. But if you were
to say Dolly Pardon, yes, Dolly Pardon grew up in
(40:57):
Severe County. Is a descendant of John Severe here and
a member of the descendants of John Severe. And one
last thing, John Severe did lose his head. Really in
the nineteen fifties, my dad made a statue. My dad
was a sculptor. He made a ten ft marble statue
(41:18):
of John Severe. For the longest time it was in
a bank, but in the nineteen eighties that got moved
to the Knoxville, Tennessee World's Fair Park. During a University
of Tennessee pledge week, someone cut the head off of
John Severe. That's messed up. It's a one hundred thousand
(41:39):
dollar statue, but the head went missing. So how much
you thing the head would have been worth on its own,
who knows. But it's in some play in some fraternity
house probably, I guess. And nothing again along with some
Pilford like road sign. Yeah, it's probably out there, but uh,
you know, the Tipton Knights would be happy to hear.
(42:00):
Or that John Silvere fondly lost his head and what's that.
That's about all I got to say. Man, that's that
was plenty and all fascinating, and we are really grateful.
I'm personally grateful for you coming and telling us the story. Yeah,
thanks so much for coming on the show. Dad. This
has been extra credit and that at the end of
(42:24):
the segment, but not the show. We hope you'll join
us next time for another episode of Ridiculous History. I'm
not even sure what we're doing yet. I think let's
just leave the teaser off this time and keep people's
imagination trying. Let's keep the mystery, you know. In the meantime,
we would like to hear from you. We want to
hear your stories about local states that never were in
your neck of the Global Woods. You can find us
(42:45):
on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. Of course. If you want
to hang out with your fellow Ridiculous historians who are,
in our collective opinion, the best part of the show,
visit us on Ridiculous Historians. I just send us a
request to join the group, and we will likely infirm
said request unless you are some sort of war criminal, right, right, right.
(43:05):
And of course, as we like to say at the
end of every episode, it's time to give some credit
and some thanks to super producer Casey Pegram, researcher Extraordinary
Christopher Hasciotis, Alex Williams, who composed our theme music. Ben,
Thank you, Heyl. I'm so glad you brought this up.
Thank you for being you, and and and thank you,
(43:26):
m thank what should I call you? Gladwin? Is that okay?
That works for me? Thank you Gladwin. Thanks for joining
us on the show today. Yeah, it was a lot
of fun and everybody will see you next time.
Ridiculous History News
Hosts And Creators
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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