Tossed Popcorn, Part 1: The Wizard of Oz and the Titanic

It's no secret that Hollywood has been home to numerous lurid, disturbing -- and, sometimes, ridiculous -- tales over the decades. In the first part of this two-part series, the guys are joined with Lianna and Sienna, the creators of Tossed Popcorn, for an exploration of bizarre behind-the-scenes stories from some of film's most iconic movies, celebrities and eras.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome

(00:27):
back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always
so much for tuning in. That's our one and only
super producer, the Man, the myth Legend, Mr Max Williams.
Give it up for him. I'm Ben Noel. This is uh.
This is a two parter that we are doing on purpose.
Look at us, man, oh man, We're like, we're like
real podcast adults. Today. I put on a suit jacket today.

(00:51):
I'm dressing up a little bit because although I still
have a hoodie on under this, because we are diving
into some very bizarre stories and we're not doing it alone.
We have guests, don't we, Boy? Do we? Ever? Today
we are joined by both hosts of the incredible I
Heart podcast, Tossed Popcorn Um Leanna Holston and Sienna Jacole,

(01:15):
who are both dear, old, close, funny but in a
hot way, friends who have neither seen nor enjoyed that
many films, particularly the classics. I am pulling this directly
from your Apple podcast description because I love it. It's
leading with self deprecation. Is away into my heart. Thank
you so much for joining us today. Thank you for

(01:37):
having us. We're so happy to be here now. Behind
the scenes of our behind the scenes show, you'll get
why that's an okay joke at the end. Behind the
scenes here, we have been working together off air to
get our schedules to align because both Nolan I and
Max as well are huge film buffs and we love

(01:59):
we love listening to tossed popcorn, and we wanted to
have you all on the show with us today so
that we can share some tales, true life tales of
the bizarre, at times disturbing things that happened behind the
camera during the creation of some of some of the
best films in the world of film. And when we

(02:22):
talked about this, we didn't want to spoil too much
for each other, but I I was hoping against hope
that one of us would talk about, uh, one of
my favorite urban legends and disaster stories in the world
of film. And that's your idea, Leanna, the Wizard of Oz.

(02:43):
Oh my god, what a what a cursed, cursed film.
You wouldn't think it because it's such a delightful film.
It's definitely a troubled production, one that it was pure
chaos behind the scenes. I love it. Why don't we
lead with that one then, I mean, it seems we're
all raring to go and hear about some munchkin disasters

(03:04):
and what is it like aluminum paint poisonings. Again, I
know a little bit about it. Um, I don't know
which parts of it are true and which parts have
been kind of trumped up and exaggerated over time, but
hopefully we'll figure that out right now. Oh yeah, um,
I don't mean to start this with two massive of
a brag, but I found a book and I read. Yeah,

(03:26):
I don't know I do those. But there's a book
downloaded from the l a public library on my laptop
currently about this movie, which is it's a book called
The Making of the Wizard of Oz by this name.
There's no way I'm gonna nail this. But al Geane
Harmet's I think, is the name of the woman who
wrote it, and she wrote this, thank you so much,
thank you, I appreciate it. She wrote it in the

(03:47):
seventies and actually interviewed all the surviving cast and crew
of the film who she could find to ask about
all of these tall tales. Because the set and the
movie is mired in rumors and sort of lore about
what actually happened. There was a big rumor that somebody
died in the making of it, and this book has
clarified a lot of those and unfortunately for my sort

(04:09):
of dark interest in morbid history, nobody did die. But
fortunately for them, nobody did die. So that is good. Okay,
We're gonna start at the top, even from the beginning
of this film, before they even had the final script,
before they were on set. The movie itself had ten
screenwriters over the course of the writing of it. Herman

(04:31):
Manko Wicks, who we we know perhaps from the film
manc was the first of ten screenwriters. Two of the
ten were alcoholics, and one of the ten had a
failing marriage and then turned to drink to sort of
cope with that while writing the This it's just so
so funny to have such a wholesome and delightful film
be written by people whose lives were fully falling apart

(04:54):
over the course of it. What I did learn is
that it was pretty common at the time, this was
nineteen thirty eight. I believe that they were writing it
for three to five writers to be assigned to a
film at the same time, and then kind of the
person who wrote the best treatment or the best overall
script one and was chosen to continue on with the

(05:14):
project was uncredited ultimately, Like I think so. I believe
they ultimately credited three writers and one person as the
adapter from the L. Frank Baum novel. Uh. And yeah,
I think you're right. He was not listed at all
in that. Was it a thing where they were just
not turning out the kind of script the studio wanted,

(05:37):
or were they doing okay and then had these terrible
personal demons and struggles that had to be replaced. I
think it was more the former. I think it was
more the studio just wanted to go in a different direction. Uh.
Is my loose understanding from this book that I did
read it eleven pm yesterday. Um. For like for Manco Wakes,

(05:58):
I think they just went with somebody else's treatment eventually
and just changed tacked tack a little bit for our
sailing audience, but of a sailing term there You're welcome,
And I don't think anybody was officially fired from the
writing of it. The directors, on the other hand, is
a whole other story. There were four directors for the film,

(06:20):
and they ultimately had or at one point had Victor
Fleming directing the movie, who is sort of the root
of a lot of the chaos on set that we
will get to, but he eventually left to go direct
gone with the Wind because that film was also struggling
behind the scenes. And also, you know, if you watch
it today, it has not aged well. So Lena, you're

(06:43):
saying that sort of the ruby slippers of leadership were
sort of switching from person to person. Thank you, so gorgeous,
Thank you. Yes, absolutely, there's one takeaway. I want people
to know that from feet to feet went the ruby slippers.
During the making of the Wizard of I gotta say,
like one of the most arresting images for me from
The Wizard of Oz are the feet of the Which

(07:06):
of the East kind of curling up those like kind
of Tim burtony black and white socks, you know, And
I always found that super disturbing when I was a kid.
Everything in that It's also weird that everything in that
film basically is somehow made of asbestos. I don't know,

(07:27):
like the snow the scarecrow costumes so wild. But I
I propose a I propose a theory that I'm making
up just now, and I'm just gonna make this my reality.
You guys don't have to come along with me, but
I am going to decide that the reason it went
through ten screenwriters and then numerous directors is due to

(07:49):
the studio saying, look, there's gonna be a band named
Pink Floyd, and everything in this film has to match
what happens in that album that will come out decades
and decades from now. There was a big ask it
was some very like forward thinking filmmaking, because everyone knows
that that is the only reason the Wizard of Oz
truly exists is for like Stoner, you know, um college

(08:10):
kids to to put it on mutant and listen to
the Dark Side of the Moon beautifully, which I swear
to God it does, you guys, it really does. It's
weird when the color the Munchkins are marching right along
with money. I mean, it's it's it's uncanny. I mean
Al frank Baum, you know, he sat down and he said,
you know what, eighty years from now, this is really

(08:32):
gonna slap Al frank Baum noted racist. He was not
a good guy. You should say, which kind of you know,
if you google anybody's name from the past and then
type scandal after it, you're not going to find exciting
fun results. Um. Okay, let's move on to the first
casualty on set. This was Buddy Ebsen, who was the
original tin Man. He was hospitalized in an oxygen tent

(08:57):
nine days after filming started. This is because you mentioned
aluminum in related accidents. The makeup artist powdered Buddy Ebsom's
face with aluminum dust to complete his sort of tin visage,
if you will, and that in turn, he inhaled that
dust and it coated his lungs. So he woke up

(09:18):
one night and couldn't feel I think like the left
side of his body, and he couldn't really breathe very well.
And they took him straight to the hospital and he
was there for a long time. Right there, that little
sprinkle of fairy dust is actually aluminum that's coding your lungs.
It was pretty brutal. I love it. It's just all

(09:38):
of this is so grim um. They do think though,
that this was either an allergic reaction to the aluminum
or it was a chemical effect of the fumes from
a substance that was mixed with the aluminum. Because the
makeup artist kept saying I used pure aluminum dust like
this shouldn't have happened, and so it seems like it was.
It had been used elsewhere and not coded people's lungs

(09:59):
and sent them to an oxygen tent in the hospital.
But for poor you gotta remember too, I mean, you know,
I mean, we're obviously dealing with some stuff right now
in Hollywood related to lack of safety on set, you know,
with this whole Alec Baldwin debacles. So it's certainly uh
interesting thing to talk about. But back then they had
very little safety oversights. It was just all for the pictures,

(10:22):
you know, like it didn't really they didn't really think
of the welfare of actors the way we very least
tried to and have supposedly a lot of fail safe
kind of mechanisms in place to make sure nobody gets
hurt or nothing happens like that totally. And MGM in
that year, which is the studio that produced this film,
they were supposed to make fifty two movies a year

(10:43):
every year, so everybody was focused on just churning out
stuff instead of doing things in the most safe way.
But so he was replaced, was it was he replaced
he just didn't want to go on because he was like, Nope,
not worth it. Well again, they got that fifty two
film a year schedule, so they how long and they
wait for this guy to Yeah, and while he was

(11:03):
in the hospital, MGM called and was like, do you
know when he's gonna be back on set or like not,
he's not well, why would you ask that? Um. He
did recover after I think six weeks, but then was
prone to bronchitis for the rest of his life, which
is and he was I know. He was replaced by
Jack Haley, who actually didn't know about the aluminum reaction

(11:25):
or the hospitalization, nor did the rest of the cast
because apparently Buddy like just didn't show up to set
one day and it was considered polite to not ask
questions at the time, so nobody was really that aware
of what had happened. Yeah, by the way, we can't
get away with that in the podcasting stuff, you know
what I mean. I feel like I feel like there's
something in our contracts that says we have to tell

(11:46):
each other if we have aluminum poisoning. Was very clear
about that when we started. Is that if you ever
get aluminum poisoning legally, you have to tell us it's
the famous aluminum clause. It's a boiler is you know,
directly because of this old debacle. Yeah, and we are
grateful every day being protected. So this is so, this

(12:09):
is albready. Um, this already sounds like stuff that would
make major headlines if it happened today. I think this
also gives us an illuminating look into just how how
powerful studios were while also being somewhat ruthless when it
comes to their treatment of their cast, their crew, even

(12:31):
their stars. Right, Judy Garland playing the protagonist Dorothy, what
she wasn't exactly having a walk in the park either.
Is that correct? No, that is absolutely correct, and thank you.
They chose Judy to be the lead of this film.
She was fifteen, I think when they decided to cast her,
and she was sixteen when they were filming it, and

(12:51):
she had just signed a contract with MGM two and
a half years before then and had had smaller parts.
But you could tell, given how they were casting her
leading to the Wizard of Oz, that they were intentionally
giving her larger and larger roles to make her a star,
so that by the time Wizard of Oz came out,
she was a bit more known. Also, it's so sad.
I mean, her story is so so sad, but MGM. Fully,

(13:13):
they wanted her for her singing voice. They loved her
singing voice so much, but they didn't like how she looked,
and so they put her on very strict diets. They
put her in very specifically, they had her nose redone.
They literally shaped her into what they wanted her to
look like to match her voice, which is what they
really loved about her. Plastic surgery. Plastic surgery, I believe so.

(13:35):
And then they also later on, I don't think they
did this for the Wizard of Oz, but for her
later project, they would put her on like I can't
remember which drug it was, but they literally gave her
what she would call happy pills that kept her awake
for seventy two hours so that they could film yeah,
pop and Benny's cigarette and then yeah, yeah, it's I mean,

(13:57):
it was just so out essentially like she her regiment
from the studio. It's probably what kicked off her lifelong
pill and alcohol addiction. I would say that's a fair yes,
especially if they started her so young, you know, yeah,
because I think She started with MGM at which is

(14:19):
you just are going to get it was all of
the drugs and alcohol on top of just like being
a child actor is going to mess you up psychologically anyway.
This is this is the thing that gets me too,
because I I think it's fair to say that many
people grew up with grew up thinking of this version
of Wizard of Oz along with The Whiz as sort

(14:40):
of canonical childhood films. You know, I loved it, like
in these are of course the days before Facebook, not
to date myself, and I would spend time thinking like,
I don't know who would I be in this Who
would I be in this story? You know, can't be
the star as Dorothy. I don't have the range. I
knew that even at my young age. But the more

(15:03):
we learn about what these folks went through, the less
and less you you envy them. You know what, Like
what if you had the chance to be in one
of in one of the most popular, most well known
films of all time, but you had you knew that
you would be going through hellish things for that that

(15:23):
shotted immortality. It's it's a tough question to answer, especially
the more we learn about the costumes, right, because the
tin Man is only one example, right, Like, weren't there
other problems with costumes in general? Oh yeah, there, sure,

(15:47):
we're we did. You mentioned that the Scarecroast costume was
made of asbestos, which is such a fun fact itself.
It's so stupid and dumb. Uh. And and the snow
that that falls on the poppy field also famously asbestos.
And it's funny that they had these very fire proof
costumes given how many people literally caught on fire during
the making of this film one of them. Yeah, sure, sure, yeah,

(16:11):
great question. So Margaret Hamilton's the Wicked Witch of the
West icon legend queen. We love her. She Oh, I'm sorry,
that's just oh I can't from that. Um but cyclist extraordinaire.
Where how would she fare in the Tour de France.

(16:32):
Probably well, we have to assume in in the scene
where the Wicked Witch shows up after the house has
fallen on soon to be shriveled foot, Wicked Witch of
the East, uh, And she leaves after the end of
that scene. She leaves in like a proof of smoke
and flame, and it's very exciting. But when they were

(16:53):
filming that as she was exiting. She was supposed to
go down through sort of a trap door into a pit,
and then the smoke and the flames would play over her,
so it looked like she had disappeared, but the flames
started too early, so she was still in them rather
than below ground in a pit where she should have been.
I know. It's also this is very sad. The reason

(17:15):
that this happened is because it's sort of the fault
of Victor Fleming, the director, where they had two shots.
They had two good takes of that scene before lunch,
and then everybody left for lunch, and when they came back,
Victor Fleming was like, let's just get a couple more
for insurance purposes, just so that we know we haven't
And it was for insurance purposes. It was in the

(17:40):
last take obviously didn't do one after, but in the
last take after lunch that this happened, which is that
because she didn't go down soon enough, her hat and
broom caught fire, which ended up scalding her face. It
burned off her right eyelashes and eyebrow and and this
is gnarly so sorry. In advance, all of the skin

(18:01):
on her right hand, which was the phrasing of it
in the book, and again I do apologize, but if
I had to read it, you have to hear it
was it was as if someone had peeled the skin
like an orange off of her right hand. That's another trip.
It's so interesting like these types of effects in this

(18:22):
era of Hollywood. It's such a neat kind of like
um transition from theater type effects, you know, to films.
So you've got like things like a pit that you
go into. It's all very kind of like low fi
um and and kind of theatrical. So it makes sense,
you know, the timing and all of that would be
so important. This kind of makes me think of also
like it's almost like the proto like Michael Jackson Pepsi

(18:44):
commercial kind of you know, um debacle where he you know,
was I think a pillar of flame like scalded his
face and it was all about timing. But that's a
live event, you know, so this is very similar in
terms of like the timing and firing and all of
the things having to communicate correctly. And that clearly did
not happen here. Yeah. Yeah, and it got worse, which
is that the green paint, the green makeup that she

(19:04):
was wearing was toxic because there was copper in it,
so after she'd been so severely burned, they had to
treat it like they had to pour alcohol on those
wounds to make sure that she didn't also become like yeah,
what is that medicalth thank you? Yes, um, and a
friend had to come pick her up from the lot.

(19:25):
MGM did not offer to send her home in a car. Wow,
Like most of my hand came off like can you
come get me? It's not in the budget, so we
have you know, uh uh, in a few decades there
will be something called uber. You could wait for that,

(19:46):
or you can call a friend. Yeah, I'll frank. I'm
also famously sensed that in a hundred years there's gonna
be a car service. That was yeah, you know, I
want to stand one thing here, Leana, because you mentioned
I think it's very diplomatic to say that this, this situation,
this uh tragic accident is is the fault of the director,

(20:10):
Victor Fleming. So one of the things that gets me
he is the director of the film, but the more
you learn about him, the less cool he seems like.
He seems like a real pill. Was this behavior with
the was this behavior with the Wicked which scene. Was
it an exception to a rule or is this just

(20:33):
the kind of stuff this guy did to people? It
was pretty constant. And here's a very perfect example of that,
I think myself is the which was out for about
six weeks to heal and didn't come back to set
until about February of the next year. She quote didn't
sue for the very simple reason that I wanted to
work again, which is leading it back to your point
about how studios were so powerful at the time that

(20:56):
even when you were severely injured in a set accident,
you didn't want to be labeled, especially as a woman,
as like difficult or anything like that. Um. But the
day that she returned to set, Victor Fleming tried to
get her to do another fire stunt and she was like, no,
I'm gonna go ahead. And yeah, and this is the
scene in the movie where she's skywriting a threat to

(21:19):
it says like surrender Dorothy, and the iconic skywriting threat scene. Um.
And so she was on a broom. The broom was
elevated and there was a pipe under it that was
blowing like fire and smoke out behind the broom, and
she heard about it, and she kept asking people like,
why do you keep saying this is safe but also
giving me a fireproof costume. I don't understand. If it's

(21:41):
so safe, why also I need to be in like
an asbestos suit basically, And so she refused to do
the stunt, so in her place, her stunt double, Betty Danko,
did the stunt for her, and Margaret Hamiltons had told Betty.
She was like, hey, you don't have to do this.
It's pretty dangerous. It seems pretty risky. I literally just
got my hand back, like I really would not recommend
that you do this, and Betty said, no, no, they're
gonna pay me thirty five dollars for today if I

(22:04):
do this stunt, which is more than they paid her normally.
So let inflation calculating that real quickly. Sorry, it's a
thing we do. Sure, we just go poopoo. Of course
we must use our inflation calculator. It's a sunk cost anyway,
Sienna Leana. So we have to, like you know, for

(22:25):
the guys in accounting, we have to use this every
so often. So thirty five dollars in nineteen here we go. Uh,
that is going to if we get a drum roll
that is about that is six dollars and six cents. Okay, yeah,

(22:47):
you would get on a flaming room for that as well,
absolutely right now, Yeah, I don't know, I don't know.
I mean that's like a day rate for like a
non you know, speaking extra. Maybe are we low or than?
I mean, that seems really low ball for us featured
stunt performance by today's standard. You guys work in Hollywood,
wouldn't you say? No? I mean, it's so much more

(23:08):
than I make in a day. I would absolutely do it.
If it's just stunt double was in her early twenties,
then I get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, We've all been
a woman in our early twenties being offered six hundred
dollars to dangle from a dangerous place and said, you
know what, Yeah, I'm gonna do it. I trust the
fortitude of my of my joints. I think I can
handle it. But but Betty gets up on this room.

(23:29):
They lifted like ten to fourteen feet in the air,
and the pipe that's under the broom blowing out smoke
and flame exploded and the exploded so hard that it
blew her off the room, and she fortunately caught herself
with her hands and she got like one leg around
the stick of the broom and just was dangling there
until they could lower her down to the ground. Her

(23:51):
left leg was bruised from her thigh to her knee,
and and this is another gnarly injury thing, there was
a two inch deep wound that circled her leg almost entirely,
and like contained bits of her costumes in God, yeah,
I mean back to the theater thing. I mean, you know,
they didn't have green screen back then. This would have

(24:13):
been like someone had had to have been hoisted up
on rigging at a not insignificant height, uh, and then
kind of flailed around with a flaming pipe shooting out
from behind the broom. Is that about some up the scene.
I think that's right. It really does feel like the
actors were just sort of another prop for directors at
this time, the theatrical thing very much so. They just

(24:35):
are another thing too to make the spectacle happen. But yeah,
I think really didn't think about their actors at the time,
Oh not at all. The other thing is Margaret Hamilton's
while she was refusing to do that stunt that blew
Betty off the broom. Victor Fleming came in to Margaret
Hamilton's dressing room and it was like, come on, like
play along, you're you're being silly, like let's do Who

(25:02):
gets persuaded by that, Arguments like I've got one word
for you, and then they go, you know, I never
thought of it that way, Vic, Okay, you know, if
I'm going to jump in here real quick, I kind
of imagine that whole thing going on, like he's in
her room to come on, you should do this, and
then it all of a sudden, there's a lot of
explosion in the back right. He's like, come on, it

(25:25):
would be totally fine. You know you hear look was
screaming like us. She's holding under the broom and he's
still trying to convince her. It's like, no, this is
such a terrible idea. Attention to the screams behind the
curtain very good, very good classic reference. Uh yeah, and
it's it's honestly, it's pretty remarkable reading in the book.

(25:46):
Because Margaret Hamilton's was interviewed for the book. She was
still alive when they were when the author was writing it,
and it is pretty incredible the way that she just
flat out refused to do it, because if you think
about actors at all at that time, standing up to
a studio and saying like, you know what, no, I'm
not going to do this, and especially women who could
so easily be labeled as like challenging to work with
or you know, you could be eliminated from the production

(26:08):
so quickly. It is pretty heroic that she stood fast
and refused to do it. I mean, it sucks for Betty,
but good remarked. And this is just it's interesting because
this this story takes us to some really dark places,
and we've already encountered some things that are gonna gonna

(26:30):
stay with people the next time they watched The Wizard
of Oz. But this is nowhere near all the terrible
stuff that happened backstage. I mean, now that I'm thinking
about it, we could probably end up doing like a
limited series show, just six episodes on all the terrible
stuff that went down. Uh. And you know it's because

(26:53):
of these stories, Leona. I have never tried to find
out what happened behind the scenes of Returned was Returned
to Oz that sequel that came out way later, because
that thing terrified me as a child. Total nightmare fuel.
She's like in a she's in a sanitarium at the
beginning and getting like electroshock therapy and basically like, oh

(27:15):
you have seen it. It's it's absolute, absolute nightmare fuel.
And then there's like the Wheelers or these guys, yeah
rollerblade people know. Yeah. And then the this is from
the early nineties. It's got for us a ball can
and it's like a little young uh huh sar back

(27:35):
then you have a date in his nine with the facts. Okay,
so co produced by Cocaine. I guess probably yeah, well great,
I love I love you. This is enabling before we
before we moved to yet another story of bizarre, disturbing,

(27:56):
behind the scenes things and people's favorite films. What was
like as a takeaway, what was the thing that surprised
you the most overall when you we started learning how
the you started learning how the Wizard of Oz sausage
got made. You know, I'm afraid to ask about the
flying monkeys. Frankly, when Betty Danko got hospitalized for getting

(28:21):
exploded off a broom, the doctor who treated her was like,
oh my god, two flying monkeys were just in here.
A couple of weeks ago because they fell down. But
it's fine, it's fine. The vibes were bad. It's not
a good time. I wonder what surprised me the most.
I think it was okay, this is a little bit sad,

(28:41):
but just know that everybody was fine by the end
of it, which is that Total who was played by
Terry the Karen Terrier, got a little bit stepped on
during the filming of one scene, and that for some reason,
I was like, I get that humans didn't have rights
in the past. That to me is fine. I don't really,
that doesn't bother me. But to know that a dog
was at risk of injury, it's bothers him. Unfortunately, Terry recovered.

(29:03):
She was totally okay by the end of it, but
her trainer did pass out out of anxiety when she
returns to set, so that I think that to me
was like, oh, whoa, this production really was bad. Well,
I think Ben spot On and saying that we could
at the very least devote a whole episode to this
um but I think it probably deserves surprise. It hasn't

(29:23):
already happened a limited series to go because just yeah,
it's a whole book. I mean, we we we could
be here, uh talking about the woeful occurrences on the
set of The Wizard of Oz all day. Did you
have any kind of a biggie to to leave us
with before we go to a break and then come
back with another story. I mean, this is this is
not a non to accident. This is a little preview

(29:43):
for our to plug our own Wizard of Oz episode,
which is that the book itself is considered to be
a metaphor for the populist movement in America at the time.
And uh oh, I love it. Such a fun reading
of the thing. And I'll just give you a little clue,
which is that the ruby slippers in the book were
originally the silver slippers to talk about the free silver
movement that was going on at the time in America. Yeah,

(30:05):
that stuff would have translated perfectly over time. I'm sure
gold standard yellow brick road the pieces all tied together,
you know. Uh. This also is it weird that this
makes me want to rewatch I don't want to say
hate watch, but rewatch the Wizard of Oz. There I'm

(30:26):
gonna be thinking about this, you know what I mean?
How many takes was this? How many people uh ended
up catching on fire in this scene. You know what,
we haven't even talked about how sleazy the Munchkins were.
That is just full prejudice. Like the book has a
whole chapter about the actors who played the Munchkins and
about how much rumors spread around them because it was

(30:47):
just Hollywood being like, we don't like these people. Oh really,
then I if, if so, I apologize to the estate
and the relatives of the Munchkins. I have a lot
more to learn about this. Uh what if the story
is that I always heard that really kind of smacked
of like a spooky urban legend. Was that in a
scene you could see in the background like a munchkin,

(31:09):
lifeless munchkin corpse hanging from a tree. And I think
that's not true, but it's the kind of stuff that
sure makes for a good story. I have not heard that.
I love that as so spooky. Oh I believe it's
at the very beginning. Um, So, everybody, go ahead, get
the two, the streaming platform or VHS machine of your choice,

(31:34):
and check out check out The Wizard of Oz and
let us know, uh, let let us know what other
weird facts you have learned about this this amazing film
behind the scenes and all the terrible things that happened.
And and uh, Leanna Siena is the toss popcorn Wizard
of Oz episode out yet very much to a get

(31:58):
you to a podcast streaming platform of choice and check
that one out too. All right, well, I guess I
will go next and turn back the clock a good
little bit back to nineteen twelve, UM, just a month

(32:18):
or so after the sinking of the Titanic. Uh, you know,
big ship, famously impenetrable, you know, all of the technology
and the you know, different compartments and all that the
the unsinkable ship that very very much sank. And this
is a story about one of the survivors of the

(32:39):
HMS Titanic, a very um up and coming, you know,
kind of bright shining star in Hollywood. UM, by the
name of miss Dorothy Gibson. UM. Dorothy had kind of
started making a name for herself in silent films. She
was known for, you know, having a really good kind
of presence and comedic timing. UM. And she you know,

(33:02):
had a bright future in Hollywood. UM. She already had
kind of a career between nineteen o six and nineteen
eleven UM, when she was seventeen as a stage performer
and a dancer in vaudeville, And around nineteen o nine
she started modeling UM for a famous commercial artist, So
she would have been in kind of some of those
like Madmen style kind of artists renderings that you would

(33:24):
have seen, you know, in an advertisement. Back in those days.
She was a cover girl. She was on the cover
of things like Cosmopolitan, UM. And she also you know,
was starting to do film. She signed a contract with
Eclaire Studios, which I had never heard of, Claire Studios

(33:44):
in nineteen eleven. Um, there's a reason we haven't really
heard much about a Claire Studios. The whole studio burned
to the ground and almost all of their prints were
lost in the five It feels like how so many
businesses ended in the past. It's just all of it
burned down, all of it. It's just gone. So on

(34:05):
March seventeenth of nineteen twelve, after she had already you know,
started kind of really getting into the pictures, UM, Dorothy
and her mom went to Europe on vacation, but she
was called back to Hollywood UM to start working on
a new series of film, like you know, very similar
to what's up with the Wizard of Oz. It was
kind of a churn and burn kind of machine back then.

(34:27):
And this was in the days like before feature films
were the thing. It was more about making these they
call them one reel film, so they would be what
we would think of as like shorts, but a program
wouldn't be a feature film. It would be like a
series of these shorts are like you know, early animations
and like newsreels and all of that, and then of
course like these kind of silent dramatizations. Um. So she

(34:47):
had to come back, so they decided to book two
tickets she and her mother on the maiden voyage of
the RMS Titanic. Excuse me, I think I mistakenly referred
to as the HMS Titanic. Sorry, my nautical knowledge is
not early as good as y'alls. Um. And they boarded,
they were in Paris. They boarded at Sherbourg on the
tenth of April, and of course we know what happened.

(35:10):
What happened there She was playing bridge, apparently with some
very friendly New York bankers, was how she described it,
um to the New York Dramatic Mirror, which I love.
It's it's not like the Daily Mirror. It's the dramatic Mirror.
Imbued all their writing with a sense of gravitas. That
was sort of their Thingum so the newspaper invented by

(35:33):
like theater kids. Yeah, I think you know. Uh so
the Mirror, this is the dramatic Mirror. Okay, we we
only run melodramatic stories. The advertisements all have to be
full of turgent pros. Yeah, like exactly so, No, this
is this is something that you would introduced me to

(35:56):
off air. And what's what's fascinating is that it the
her life. Gibson's life was going pretty well up to this,
up to this post. And uh I have to ask,
do any of us know how to play bridge? I
just want to get us only you have to be
an old lady to play bridge. Naturally, my whole family

(36:21):
except for me, knows how to play bridge, and it
is upsetting. At every holiday they're like, should we all
play bridge? And I say, I can't know. I don't
want that. Why you like Trump's Trump's is a thing
in bridge right coming up? Trump's is good. I know
you can gamble at bridge. At the fact, I think

(36:44):
you know. In a recent season of um the Fargo
television series, which is great. Um, you and McGregor his
character and his love interest in the in the show, Um,
who is played by don you remember her name? She
was also in Scott Pilgrim Versus the World. Totally blanking
on on the actor's name. But they are professional bridge players. Um.
That was the first I've heard of there being a

(37:05):
professional bridge circuit. But back in these days it was
definitely a very very popular game, kind of had a
bit of a high society vibe to it. You know,
you only played it with like bankers essentially. Um. But
you know, in the midst of this bridge game, she
heard what she described as a long drawn, sickening crunch
not not not good. Uh, and she she she was alarmed. UM. Actually,

(37:30):
I just want to credit the article that I'm pulling from.
There is a really good blog post on the History
Press called Dorothy Gibson, the Woman who Survived the Sinking
of the Titanic and the Nazi Prison. We're not gonna
get to the Nazi prison partly. That's sort of like
its own part part of the story. But uh, definitely
check that out on on the history press dot com.
It's really great history blog so she hears the sickening crunch,

(37:52):
the lawn drawn out stickening crunch, and she decides to
go investigate and notices that the deck is now lopsided.
They were. That means it's not a good thing to observed,
you know, when you're out to see uh. So she
rushes back to her and her mother's quarters and gets
her mom Um. They go back out to the deck
where they are very lucky to be on one of

(38:14):
the very first lifeboats that were launched. And as we know,
you know from the James gammeron film, they were largely
reserved for people like her and these bankers she was
playing bridge with, you know, the high society folks kind
of got um. The early um uh lifeboat positions so
kind of problematic and weird. I have to say good

(38:35):
on her for hearing a sound and doing something about it, because,
as someone who lives alone, when there is a weird
noise or like anything that sort of seems like maybe
it's an earthquake. Because I live in Los Angeles, all
I do is sit where I already was and say, well,
I hope everything's fine, right. If anything goes wrong, surely
someone will alert me. I would absolutely have died on
the Titanic. I also have a question. It would be

(39:00):
statistically it's it's a tall milkshake. But Dr Mario, I
don't know finished it out. No. I I assumed though,
that one of the primary reasons Dorothy Gibson was able
to escape at all was because she was in first class.
Is that correct? That's what I mean? Yeah, exactly, it was.
Those early lifeboats were reserved for you know, Billy Zane

(39:24):
in his you know so um. But they did get
on it. It was lifeboat number seven. They didn't realize though,
until they were out to see, you know, in those
icy waters that there was a hole there. There there
had been a hole that was I don't know if
it was as a result of the crash. It may
have just been a faulty lifeboat. But a hole in
the bottom of the lifeboat caused water to you know,

(39:45):
this ice cold water to start rushing in and flooding
the boat. But um, Dorothy explained in that same article
for the New York Traumatic Mirror. Yeah, they this is
her quote. This was remedied by volunteer contributions from the
lingerie of the women and the garments men and everyone
laughed at my spanks. My uh served a very very

(40:07):
important purpose. So they did. They did survive. Um, they
were able to to get to safety thanks to uh.
You know, these these neglijays and I'm assuming like vests
or something like that. The you know, the that's you know,
the the the accessories, you know, things that you could
kind of part with. UM. So the studio head hearing
the news along with the rest of the world that

(40:29):
the Titanic had sunk and knowing that Dorothy you know,
had been on it. He does with studio heads and
executive producers and the like. Often do you think about
how they how can I exploit this? You know, how
can I exploit this and make some money? You have
to be the first to the table. Anytimes something big
happens in the news. You can just almost hear the

(40:49):
sound of Hollywood executives like you know, light bulbs coming
on and like greedy, you know, kind of Mr. Burns type,
fingers rubbing together, like how can I make how can
I can vert this tragedy into grosses. I think it
might be something to where it's like, you don't it's
a matter of respect. And the real tragedy here is

(41:10):
is if we don't get anything good out of this.
This is for the people, This is for this is
for Gibson, This is for the bottom line anyway past
the cigars around. Well, that's a good point. Well, you know,
it's obviously we know what the real motivations are, and
then we also know how someone in that position would
communicate that to the person involved and trying to make

(41:33):
it more noble than it actually is. Like, oh no,
there's an opportunity to honor the memory of those brave
men women, you know, who lost their lives with the Titanic.
This is an opportunity for you to tell your story, Dorothy.
And this guy's got the most evil Hollywood movie tycoon
kind of name to his name is Jules Brulettore. Jules Brulettour.

(41:58):
He's the beauty of him. He he's the reason. Yeah,
he's total, total dickensiean villain type guy. And here's the
the irony. Maybe it's iron I always forget a lot
of some more set kind of confused me about what
means um, but he is the reason that she left
Europe in the first place. So he's the reason she
was on the Titanic in the first, m Jules b Yeah, exactly,

(42:22):
a real monster. So she gets back and he immediately
it's already the gears are are turning, like I said,
the wheels are in motion to make a dramatization of
the sinking of the Titanic, and he wants Dorothy to
be a part of it. He thinks she is uniquely
positioned to tell this story, to tell her story, right, Um.
So he ropes her in um under the guys of

(42:45):
kind of being a producer of the thing, and also
he wants her to star in it. And he's able
to make the case in pure you know, uh Dickensian
villain kind of fashion um to to to be okay
with this and to be on board. Um. So they
start production I believe literally a week a week after

(43:05):
she gets back, and they combined like stock footage, like newsreel,
not stock footage news real footage rather of the the
icebergs and all of that stuff. Um, And they film
some stuff you know, on a set and against just
a one reel film. It was finalized in nineteen fifteen.
Oh and by the way, according to this blog post

(43:26):
um and other sources in order, this is this is
their take on it in order to preserve his reputation.
Us or married Dorothy No snidely whiplash kind of guy.
That's right. They had been having an affair. He was
twisting the screws in so many ways, right, I mean
emotionally twisting the screws, like acting as though he had

(43:49):
her best interest at heart. He's now her husband. I mean,
this guy is a real piece of work. The number
of times I've been like, we do historical context on
our podcast. In the number of times I've been reading
about some producer director who gave a woman a hard
time and then the article is like, and then he
married her. Bananas, so it's all fine. Yeah, this guy

(44:10):
is also nineteen years older than her. Find what works
for you. But it feels like a messed up dynamic
the whole thing. I mean, it's it's a it's a
power dynamic, right. I mean, she's like, you know, super
young and hungry and to your point, you know, in
the Wizard of Us segments very very beholden to the studio.
You have a contract. You're kind of like their property.

(44:31):
Not to mention being a woman. You don't want to
rock the boat. Oh no, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I
just the pun was intended. After the fact, is that
a people, a lot of people died. So the film
comes out it's a big hit. Actually, it's a big hit.
It received mixed reviews. Let's say um. The Moving Picture

(44:53):
World issue on May eleventh, nineteen twelve described her performance
gives us performance as a unique piece of acting in
the sensational new film play of h. Claire Company, creating
a great activity in the market for the universal interest
in the catastrophe has made a national demand, and the
review goes on. Ms Gibson had hardly recovered from her
terrible strain in the wreck when she was called upon

(45:15):
to take part in this new piece, which she constructed
as well constructed, I guess she refers to her creative
hand and kind of shaping the thing. Um, it was
a nerve racking task, but like actresses before the footlights,
this beautiful young cinematic star valiantly conquered her own feelings
and went through the work. Bravo, Dorothy, Bravo. Um, a
surprising and artistically perfect real has resulted. And then we've

(45:39):
got the New York dramatic mirror again. Um. Really like
skewering the whole thing seems super drama. The bare idea
of undertaking to reproduce in a studio, no matter how
well equipped or by re enacted scenes see scenes. An
event of the appalling actor of the Titanic disaster with

(46:01):
its victims is revolting, especially at this time when the
horrors of this event are so fresh in mind. And
that's a young woman who came so lately with her
good mother. Her good mother safely through the distressing scenes,
can now bring herself to commercialize her good fortune by
the grace of God, is past understanding. Shame on you?

(46:25):
Five stars? Yeah yeah, follow it up with yeah B minus. Uh.
So I heard and noill correct me on this. Uh,
because you've been reading were reading more about this. I
heard that the film she was actually in ended up

(46:45):
like you can't see a copy of it today. Right?
Does the whole thing still exists? I'll remember I talked
about earlier. The reason we haven't really heard much about
the Claire Film Studio is because there was a fire.
It is considered a lost film. Only a handful of
black and white production stills. Uh still exists to this day. Um,

(47:07):
because you know all of the original prints were lost.
So this is considered a lost film. Um, And honestly
that's really yeah. But it was the ghost of the
Titanic getting its revenge. I mean it was. It's you know,
how long did it take for them to make a
nine eleven movie? I mean it was it was many,
many years, you know. I mean, I think as as

(47:27):
as rough and kind of manipulative and gross as Hollywood
can be, no one's making that movie a week later.
You know, it's not happening. Um. So there was a
whole another layer of grossness and opportunism that existed in
Hollywood back in these days. And you know, as as
you could probably gather, uh from that that scathing review,

(47:48):
it was a very difficult thing for Dorothy to do.
That she was described by you know, people who were
around as look having the look of someone who had
had a nerve shattering event take place. Um, and that
she would burst into tears periodically. You know. So again,
when you think about the you know, influence that this
gross film producer is kind of wielding over her, she

(48:11):
obviously did this absolutely under duress. Um. Thinking about all
of those factors that we talked about in Wizard of
Oz that, well, I better do it or else I
might not have a job. Um. And it turns out
she it was so distressed by the whole thing. You
can't necessarily blame this entirely on the film. I mean,
it could have been a lot of factors. But she
stopped acting after this. Um. This was this was the

(48:34):
last thing that she acted in, I believe, um. And
it was, you know, largely because she was described as
kind of having a nervous breakdown and the sort of
a loaded term. But she was not well and this
probably exacerbated it. I mean, I'm sure you know PTSD.
I don't think it was a thing at the time,
but you know, that's definitely what she had and this
could not have been good for that. On on a

(48:58):
positive note, though, if you do want to see her
on the silver screen, I believe there is one film
that's still there's one extant film that stars Dorothy Gibson.
It's called A Lucky Hold Up. It's very different from
The Titanic. From what I understand. It is an adventure comedy.
So there's that trying to look for some positivity, you know,

(49:20):
that's fun. Yeah, A lucky what's it called again, A
lucky Oh wait, trans Atlantic alock, you hold up a
lucky That sounds so okay, well let's check that out
to soften the blow of this pretty tragic story, but
super interesting and very much in line with what we
talked about, you know, with the production of Wizard of Oz,
or at least more like the politics behind the way

(49:41):
actors were treated. Um and this is this really laid
the groundwork, you know, for for what happened in The
Wizard of Oz in terms of like actors just being
kind of pawns for the money making schemes of these um,
these awful film producers and directors. So that's that's that story.
I feel like actors on contracts with these old studios

(50:03):
felt the same way that I did when I had
to buy a mattress for the first time as an adult,
which is like they told me the price and I
was like, I guess, I guess I have to do
this now, where they had to stick with the film
and I had to give someone seven hundred dollars for
a mattress. Hey, stick was a podcast game and they'll
send you They'll send you a Casper or purple. I

(50:28):
mainly started a podcast to get a mattress that's that's
literally why people white people do it these days. That's
how I red glasgot started. Yeah, one one uh one
note I wanted to add, I thought no, this would
interest you. It's very tangentially related. But we all know
the later Titanic film James Cameron like the biggest plot

(50:50):
hole there spoiler alert is that there's clearly enough route
on on the debris for everyone's take on this, everyone's
take on this, because I've heard people make the argument
that you know, yeah, there was enough room physically, but
maybe you know, Leonardo DiCaprio's slight frame may have been
just the thing that like, you know, tipped it over
the edge into speaking territory. What do you what do

(51:12):
you guys think? Is this an unfair criticism or do
you think that that rose was kind of hogging the door? Leona?
Have you seen the Titanic or thank you, yes, the
boat itself? Sure, I have. You know, I might look
like it if you do my hair right, I do
look like I'm from the year nineteen twelve. But I

(51:33):
think it is. Yeah, it's very true. Um my stance
is a poor choice of a of a prop item,
but the social commentary itself is apt of. You know,
the woman who's in first class, comes from money, was
guaranteed to have a good life, would be the one
who survives. And the guy who got on because he
was I don't know, maybe playing bridge and one tickets

(51:54):
in a bridge duel. Maybe maybe a dice game me.
You know, but that's that's my tape. Okay, what about you, Sieta, Well,
I have not seen the film, but I have seen
many a meme about that particular part, so I know
about that, and based on those memes I saw, I mean,

(52:15):
they made some good arguments. It seems like there was
a lot of space. I could see a lot of
positions he could have taken to fit onto that great
not the largest guy. Yeah, that's fine, that's like Tom
Cruise style this. I'm bringing this up though, because I
wanted to see if you guys have heard of this.
I heard a rubor about the New Titanic that I

(52:37):
finally confirmed. Uh, almost all the cast and crew, or
a sizeable amount thereof, actually got incredibly sick when filming
this because somebody laced the seafood chowder with PCP, which
I did not. I'm so true that everybody's nodding like, oh, yeah,

(52:57):
that was a big I have to I heard it
was l s D, but not quite maybe maybe I'm
maybe I'm mistaken. It was definitely a three lettered uh
psychotropic substance, and it was all um as a kind
of you know, middle finger to James Cameron, which sort
of his confused He's you know, he's a notoriously difficult
man to work for and and and you know, puts

(53:18):
people in really uncomfortable situations. I mean not Comizard of
Oz level. Yeah, he's apparently an awful guy and wants
what he wants and does whatever it takes to get
the shot. Yeah, Hollywood into I mean, again, no one's
inhaling toxic dust or anything, but they definitely are hanging
out in ice cold water for for long periods of time.
But it does seem a little off to me that
they would like dose the crafty, you know, with with

(53:40):
with drugs instead of just you know, James Cameron's personal
lobster play. Maybe like a misplaced act, is all I'm saying,
you know. Yeah, Also, wasn't it the present day cast?
Like wasn't it the woman who was like a hundred
and four during the filming. Yes, yeah, it was a
d people got hit with the PCP uh, one of

(54:02):
them being Bill Paxton and James Cameron. Uh that that's correct,
So didn't actually get Winslit or DiCaprio. But I can
see how someone would react adversely to Cameron's exacting style.
I had heard that his he was mainly doing the
Titanic so that he could get the funding to do

(54:22):
deep sea submersible exploration. Like I'm not I was joking
about the Pink Floyd stuff at the beginning of the show,
but I seriously heard that James Cameron had Titanic is
sort of an excuse to have his Jacques Cousto moment. Yeah.
We we did an episode recently on this super interesting
Danish guy who was an Arctic explorer and made like

(54:45):
a tool out of his own frozen feces to dig
himself out of like an avalanche collapse. Um, and he
founded what's the guy's name, Ben? Do you remember? Sorry, Peter,
that job was his last name? Fan, Yeah, so Peters,
indeed it was. It was. It was just so he
fashioned himself a a cudgel if you will, or some

(55:08):
sort of chisel kind of out of his frozen and
then he du himself out and then he went on
to found, uh, the the Adventurers Club or the Explorers Club,
I forget which one it is, um, And James Cameron
is a member of that club, so full start call there. Also,
we handled that whole entire poop chisel thing very maturely,
like thank you not we're podcast adults, like I said

(55:36):
at the top of the show. Um, but I think
that's that. Let let's let's let's up put a pin
in this story. I obviously much more to discuss, um
as far as Dorothy is concerned. Um, not the Wizard
of Us Dorothy, this is Dorothy Gibson. Are our heroine
in today's story. UM. Sad that she, you know, was
taking advantage of in this way. And obviously we promising
career in Hollywood kind of came to an end because

(55:57):
of the way she was treated, but kind of for
the course in these old Hollywood stories. So and hey,
we promised a an intentional two partter, didn't we been?
So I guess this is where we leave you today.
We did, we did, and shout out of course to
Wizard of Oz and to all the blood, sweat, tears
and burns those people went through to make such an

(56:20):
amazing field, Leanna, Sienna, it has been a pleasure. We're
so glad that you're with us for this two part
sneak peek for part two, we're gonna learn about some
We're gonna learn about one of the most iconic actors
in American history and one of the weirdest, and their
lives intersect and interesting ways. But before we get to

(56:40):
that episode, why not give toss Popcorn a listen? Sienna, Leona,
Where can people find the show and learn more about
your work? You can find us wherever find podcasts are
downloaded on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, the I Heart podcast app,
and anywhere else that you want to listen to podcas us.
We're everywhere. We're also all over social media at Tossed Popcorn.

(57:04):
We got Instagram, Twitter, TikTok clash if you can believe
ahead of the social media curve. UM oh ma, well,
thank you guys so much for joining us. You can
also find Ridiculous History on the internet. UM. We have
a group called the Ridiculous Historians on Facebook that you
can join and um share memes hopefully with Rose and

(57:25):
Jack not sharing that door and whatever other historical tidbits
you guys want to discuss. Check that out on Facebook.
You can also find us on Instagram at Ridiculous History.
You can find us as individual human people on Instagram
or other social media platforms. I am exclusively on Instagram
at how Now Noel Brown? How about You've done? The
rumors are true? You can get a look at the
misadventures some of the behind the scenes research I'm doing

(57:48):
for this show and for many other shows, including stuff
they don't want you to know, by heading over to
Instagram where I'm at ben Bowland bow l I n uh.
You can also check out some spoilers for upcoming episodes
at Ben Bolan hs W. And the reason I can
say spoilers is because I did a poll and it
was it was close, but it was like, people are

(58:08):
okay with spoilers. We want to yeah, we want to
thank We want to thank you guys so much for
hanging out with us and staying for the conclusion of
this two part series. Thanks as always to the one
and only Mr Max Williams. Thanks to Casey Pegram, Thanks
to Alex Williams who composed this slap in Bob and Oh.

(58:29):
Also Noel, we made that executive decision not to have
the quiz to appear at the end today, right, God, Okay, God,
Now we didn't want, we don't want to subject these
fine people to him. Now, well, well we'll keep him
at bay for just a little bit longer. We'll see
you next time, folks. For more podcasts from My Heart Radio,

(58:55):
visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.