June 21, 2024 • 44 mins
This brand of savory sauces has as many origin stories as it has uses. Anney and Lauren dip into the history and phenomenon of HP Sauce.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hello, and welcome to Savior production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I'm Annie and Unlarned Vocal Bomb, and today we have
an episode for you about HP sauce.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Yes, not a sponsor, Nope, Nope, nope. But this is
kind of a belated one. Yes, we're a little behind,
but it's related to Father's Day.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Yes, happy belated Father's Day to anybody celebrating.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Yes. So you had asked me if I had any
topic ideas for Father's Day, and I, as usual, gave
you way too.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Maybe it's great, it's great.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
But one of them was HP sauce because my dad
loved HP sauce. He would look back at this, I'm
kind of confused, but I guess we weren't able to
get it in our small town. So he would order
it from Afar Sure, and so he would get like
(01:12):
twelve plus bottles.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Yeah, like at least sure yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Of HP sauce at a time, and they would be
sitting in our pantry. And I was telling you before this, Lauren,
I don't think I ever tried it because it was his,
it was his special sauce. It was his sauce that
he liked. Yeah, and I got a little nostalgic thinking
back on it. But some of the reading I found
(01:40):
really interesting because my dad grew up in that he
ate a lot of what people would call like cheaper foods.
He like grits and things like that in the South,
which yes, there are expensive grits, but for him, it
was much more of you know, this is what we have.
(02:02):
And he had this fear of bad meat okay, so
he would and eat certain meats, especially chicken okay. And
he preferred canned meats okay. And it was just funny
reading this because there were so many things I was
reading where I was like, Okay, this sounds like the
(02:23):
thing that you used to make something kind of blander
boring a little more exciting.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Yeah. Yeah, that's sort of the vibe of it. Although
I don't want to get into too much hot water
about it. I'm not judging in any way. No, like
what you like, sauce, what you sauce?
Speaker 1 (02:43):
You know. Yes, he was definitely the condiment. I think
we used to call him like he had some nickname
with convent in it. He used a lot of condiments,
but he liked like the food was the base and
then the condiments were the what you added to make
it more interesting.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Yeah. Yeah, they were the main flavor event of the meal.
It wasn't like how you cooked it. It was like
what condiments you put on after the fact. Yeah, yes, absolutely,
m absolutely. Oh humans are fascinating. Yeah yeah, but you
still haven't had it to this day, right.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
As far as I know, I haven't. Uh, I remember
wanting to try it. I don't think he would have
been like, no, you can't have it, but it had
some sort of like this is a rare.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Thing, especially in the times when right, like, it wasn't
at your local grocery store in the international food style. Yes,
like before that time, sure it was a little bit
trickier to get a hold of.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Yeah. So yeah, I don't believe I've had it, but
it's quite possible that I have. But it wasn't my
house all the time.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
I've definitely experienced stage piece sauce, either through like like
British or perhaps Irish or Scottish pubs around Atlanta, or
maybe that one time that I was in England for
a week or so. I fully believe that I put
some on my like full breakfast that I had every day,
because why not.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
M h.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
And yeah, it's a condiment. It's salty and sweet and delicious.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, again, I don't want to make anybody
feel bad. I just don't in my experience. That sounds
horrible just to say it. I'm just saying my dad's experience.
He was using it in this case of using it
for bland foods, which I did read about during this research.
(04:48):
But I know people use it for other things.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
So absolutely, yes, which we will certainly get into.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Yes we will. You can see our past episodes on
various sauces and connaments like ketchup and Garam Worcester.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Sure, yeah, you got it, good job, good job. Also
a tamarind tomato. Yeah, there's probably a few others in there.
Sure yeah, of course. Well, I guess this brings us
to our question. Hpie Sauce.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
What is it?
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Well. HP Sauce is a brand of brown sauce, which
is a condiment typically made from purred and cooked down
tomatoes with malt, vinegar, and some kind of sweet fruit
and spices, creating a zingy, savory, sweet tart sauce that's
thick but porrible and a slightly translucent brown in color.
(05:50):
The brand HP makes a few varieties of condiments, but
that that I just described as kind of like the
go to classic one. It can be you used in
a marinade or as an ingredient and like a hearty
stew or castrole sort of situation. But it's perhaps more
often used as a spread on sandwiches or like served
table side for people to use as a sauce or
(06:13):
dip for kind of savory fatty dishes like a breakfast
platter or French fries or lots of different beef for
pork kind of dishes, because it kind of like cuts
and combines with those heavy flavors, bringing a little bit
of brightness in. It's sort of like a like a
non creamy, zesty gravy or like an alternate dimension tomato ketchup.
(06:37):
Things like steak sauce and brown barbecue sauces are definitely
in the same family. It's just sort of like nice
and perky and nostalgic, sort of like safely interesting. HP
sauce is like, okay, this is this is a weird one,
but it popped in my head and I can't stop
thinking about it. All right. It's like if you fell
(06:58):
asleep watch or listening to your favorite broadcast program back
in the day when stations went offline for the night
and then you woke up to just gentle static. It's
like eating that nice soft static.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
It's pretty deep scout, layers of nostalgia, layers of comfort
in there.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Yeah yeah, kind of zy, yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
I don't know like it.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
I've been watching too many horror movies about television. It's great, okay, anyway, too, okay,
all right. So the HP brand's original sauce is the
really ubiquitous one, especially in England where it is originally from.
More on that later, And that one is right made
with tomato, malt, vinegar, molasses, dates, some rye, tamarind and
(07:59):
some other sweeteners and flavorings and thickeners, so you've got
this sort of warm, round, zingy flavor there. Homemade dupes
of it often call for spices like ginger, bay, starr
anis cloves, allspice, and juniper. Just to give you a
little bit of an idea of the profile.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
Yea.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
And again there are other brands of brown sauce you
can make it at home, and other varieties of HP sauce,
But you kind of see that original on like every
pub table in England, perhaps less often throughout the rest
of the UK and various territories. It typically comes in
a glass bottle that's squared on its sides and has
(08:40):
a round lip, in a nine ounce that's two hundred
and fifty five gram size. Larger packages, including slightly larger
squeeze bottles, are in plastic, including two Lead restaurants supply jugs.
Oh yeah, the label is pretty iconic, and I don't
think we've always mentioned brands labels, which is an oversight
for sure.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
So this one is like.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Pale blue with an illustration of the House of Parliament
building and Big Ben also done in this darker blue,
and then a sort of flag for the name that's
navy and red with the lettering and white. Those other
varieties of HP. Yeah, you've got HP Fruity, which is
a milder sauce with added mango chutney and orange. HP Bold,
(09:24):
which I understand is a bit spicier and is generally
only available in Canada, and its label definitely has the
silhouette of like a dude wearing a cowboy hat and
he's got a lasso in his hand and he's riding
a bucking horse. I don't know what's going on with
that guy, but I love it. There's also a classic
(09:44):
barbecue sauce that they make. That one has no malt,
vinegar or tamarind, but added woodsmoke flavor, sounds like barbecue
and then HP reduced salt and sugar.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
I think there's been a few others over the years,
but that's what I could find for sale current. I
will say their website is down right now. Something's going
on with Hinds, so I don't know. Yeah, because their
current corporate overlords are in fact Hinds. Yeah, yes, yep,
(10:16):
and yeah. The most common or maybe infamous ways that
it's used is as a topping on usually inexpensive sort
of heavy comfort food, right like full breakfasts, or really
anything involving eggs or sausage or beans or toast or
potatoes like maybe bacon sandwiches, shepherd's pie or other meat pies,
(10:39):
Welsh rabbit bangers and mash fish and chips. You can
also mix it with other sauces as a condiment, maybe
more melt vinegar to bin it out, or something like
mayo or sour cream to make it creamy, you know,
put a little bit in whatever super stew or casserole
or savory pie you're making to add depth of flavor.
Add it to ground meat if you're making burgers or meatballs,
use it in a marinade. If I've left off your favorite,
(11:01):
use do write in.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Oh yes, Because something else I came across in this
research is my dad also loved Hines fifty seven. Okay,
please don't yell at me, but a lot of things
would were comparing them when I was researching this, and
A one Yeah that was too fancy for our house.
(11:24):
I don't know, but he did use like HP was
more of a like regular everyday meal and the Hind
fifty seven was usually be.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Related okay, like a special occasion fancy or meal stakes.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I would love
if listeners could write it. If you have thoughts about.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Off the top of my head, I couldn't. I mean, like,
I'm sure that if I tasted the two of them
in a row, I could tell you basically the differences there.
I'm good at that game. But but off the top
of my head, I genuinely can't think of how they're
very different other than maybe HP is like a little fruitier. Yeah,
(12:11):
I'm really trying, and I'm coming up with nothing.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Further research is required.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, it.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Could have very well just been like a label thing,
because I feel like heind fifty seven was it was
pushed is more of a beef steak sauce, and HP
was more like whatever whatever you want. Yeah, yeah, but
yeah again listeners right in. Yeah, well, what about the nutrition.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
You're not usually eating enough to make like a huge
nutritive difference. It's as with any kind of process sauce
like this, it's gonna be a little bit heavy on
the salt and sugar. You know. It's watch your portion sizes.
Drink drink water. Eat a vegetable in with all that
sausage especially. Yeah, Like I will count unprocessed tomato slices
(13:05):
if that helps you eat a vegetable.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
I like this. I like how we've become. Okay, I'll
give you a pass on this, but.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
I personally find that the tomato slices are a very
important part of a full breakfast.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
But I do too, Okay, I really like them. Yeah, well,
we do have some numbers for you.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Ye.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Apparently the Nottingham Castle Museums and Galleries has one of
the earliest bottles of HP sauce with a creator's name
on it on display, perfectly preserved. Again, listeners, right in
you have pictures, I would love to see them.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Yeah, yes, any museum quality HP sauce experiences are very
important to us. Okay, HP does seem to hover at
around like seventy to seventy five percent of the brown
sauce market in the UK, although the same brand does
(14:10):
own the runner up brown sauce called Daddies a little
bit unfortunately in the current parlance. But here we are. Yeah.
As of twenty twelve, HP original was selling about twenty
seven point five million bottles a year, and I think
that stayed approximately the same.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Yeah, it's popular. It's really really popular, and it's got
quite a history behind how it became so popular.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
It does, and we are going to get into that
as soon as we get back from a quick break
forward from our sponsors and we're back. Thank you sponsor, Yes,
thank you.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
All right, So as the story goes, and there are
many stories and we're going to hear them. HP sauce
was invented by Frederick Gibson Garton, and I have read
that he invented it while he was at a Nottinghamshire grocer.
I've read he invented it at a pickling factory. The
(15:24):
most commonly reported history is that at the time he
came up with this recipe he was working at the
Midland Vinegar Company in Birmingham. Okay, it is safe to
say he was involved in the food industry in one
way or another, and the recipe also was a showcase
of the British Empire and imperialism when it came to
(15:46):
the ingredients, because it had tamer and dates, molasses, tomatoes
and soy added with pure vinegar. Whatever the case in
terms of time and place, he came up with this
recipe sometimes during the eighteen seventies and went on to
patent it in eighteen ninety six. It was originally called
(16:07):
the Banquet sauce, which is kind of funny given its
reputation today as something simplistic, wonderful but best alongside quote
simple dishes. So why the name change. There are so
many legends behind it, so let's break down some of
(16:28):
the more popular ones. One Garton heard that they were
serving the sauce in the House of Parliament, so he
decided to call it HP or Alternatively, he named it
that to make the claim that it was being served
in the House of Parliament without any evidence backing it up.
(16:49):
In this version of the story, he changed the name
to Garten's HP Sauce to capitalize on the love Parliament
had for it. Sure or not two it's named after
Harry Palmer, an alleged notorious gambler who sold a recipe
for Harry Palmer's famous EPSOM sauce to cover his gambling debts. However,
(17:13):
this is a really popular story. It's fun, but there's
nothing concrete to back it up. Nope, nope, not a thing.
Wherever the name came from. A vinegar manufacturer purchased the
recipe for one hundred and fifty pounds to collect on
Garden's debt. Soon after, he debuted the sauce and relaunched
(17:33):
it themselves in nineteen oh three.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
And that wasn't nothing like that's about a fifteen thousand
pounds in today's money, but you know, like a good investment.
I would say yes.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
And they really leaned into the House of Parliament angle,
putting a House of Parliament lithograph on the label. And
by this point it was already fairly successful.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
I think the image was different than it is now though,
with like Victoria Tower in the foreground and Big Ben
in the back, which was apparently how the building was
often imaged at the time.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Yes, and this is where I get to the section
that I call there's so many Mary's in this story. Okay,
So to add some more intrigue, some claim that the
sauce was actually invented by Mary Moore, who was the
wife of the owner of this vinegar manufacturing plant, the
Midland Vinegar Company. So in this case, Garden either stole
(18:32):
it or did not credit her. But there's another take
on this, that it was her husband's idea to call
it HP after the House of Parliament, or that they
purchased the name from Garden and applied it to her sauce.
Theories abound, I tell you. Others claim that the sauce
(18:53):
was first made by a man named David Hoe who
sold the recipe to Garden, or that it was his
wife Mary who created it. Oh it's a lot, you know. Yeah.
We're saying is that there's a lot going on in
the sauce. There is a lot going on in the sauce.
(19:17):
People were very eager to say that they invented it
or had a hand in it. Yes, yes, so much
so people started making similar sauces. In nineteen oh four,
a brown sauce named Daddy's Favorite went into production for
a cheaper price.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
I'm pretty sure that this one was not a rival,
that it was put out by the HP brand as
a lower cost alternative. Later they would expand the Daddy's
line to include a tomato ketchup.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
During the food shortages of the world Wars, HP was
marketed as a way to give low quality meat and
left more flavor and In nineteen forty John Betchman, who
went on to become Poet Laureate of the UK from
nineteen seventy two to nineteen eighty four, wrote in his
poem Lake District, I pledge her a non alcoholic wine
(20:16):
and give the HP sauce another shake.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
I went on a tangent about this one. Okay, I
want to give y'all the whole stanza. This is the
two stands of poem. This is the first stanza. I
passed the crew and I see the lake running with
light beyond the garden pine, that lake whose waters make
me dream her mind up to the top board mounting
for my sake, for me, She breathes for me, each
(20:41):
softened take for me, the plunge, the lake and limbs combine.
I pledge her in non alcoholic wine and give the
HP sauce another shake. So okay, very briefly, the Lake
District is this lovely area and national park in England,
partially known for attracting famous literary people. There was this
(21:05):
loose group of like mostly Romantic Movement poets who lived
and worked there in the early eighteen hundreds who came
to be known as the Lake Poets, including like Wordsworth
and Samuel Taylor Coleridge. So Betchman is invoking just a
lot in this small space working in the nineteen forties,
(21:25):
you know, talking about this kind of pastoral poetic thing,
but also HP sauce.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Yes, yeah, I was.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
An English major. Can you tell?
Speaker 1 (21:44):
HP did become a staple in UK households, in restaurants
like diners, and it gained a legion of fans. They
listed the two World Wars and started pumping out new flavors.
They purchased lean parents of Bushish sauce and rename themselves
HP Foods.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
And sometime after the World Wars they did re illustrate
the label to put big ben in the foreground. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Yes. In nineteen sixty seven they were purchased by Rural
Tobacco as the company was looking to expand into food.
I'm amazed when we do this research, how many times
companies are like, let's try expanding into this thing. That's
not our that's not our thing at all. Yep. Due
to Prime Minister Harold Wilson's affinity for the sauce, it
(22:37):
became known as Wilson's sauce. During the nineteen sixties and seventies.
His wife said he would quote drown everything in HP sauce.
Though this was apparently part of trying to create an
image of him as this like man of the people,
sort of like, oh he drinks beer too, yeah, American politics.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Yeah yeah. Not sure how accurate it was, but supposedly
he liked it.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Supposedly he liked it, and it was a big political
point where they were like, oh, he likes it. This
is fascinating, and this is a fun rabbit hole if
you're looking for one. Up until nineteen eighty four, the
bottles of HP had been adorned with French assertions about
the sauces quality. Some of them were like health related,
(23:29):
They were very intense. When the company dropped them, some
people were shook and they wrote in about how sad
they were to lose them. And there is a comedy
bit that was done just based on these French writings
that had been on the HP sauce bottles. So fascinated.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Yeah, yeah. Somehow after that, the French food mega company
Danin bought the brand in nineteen eighty eight for I
believe one hundred and ninety nine million pounds.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Who and then Hines acquired HP in two thousand and
five for eight hundred and fifty five million dollars. In
a controversial move, they relocated production of the sauce from
the UK to the Netherlands in two thousand and six.
People were so angry about it that there was a
(24:26):
short lived boycott of this company in the UK.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Yeah, yep, yeah, So Hines already had this plant in
the Netherlands. They were like, it'll be more efficient to
do it this way, but there was outrage. The Mirror
led an article about it with the line is nothing
sacred in this world? Daily Mail had a headline that
(24:51):
went the sauce of it HP is Wedding Britain for Holland.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
And then came the theories did they change their recipe.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
They had in twenty eleven, Hines reduced sodium levels in
the sauce to align with this new government regulation about
the amount of sodium you can have in a sauce.
They reduced the sodium by about a third, from about
two point one percent of the product by weight to
one point three percent, and people were mayd, mayd, I've
(25:28):
I've read a sort of unbalanced the flavors, which I'm sure,
I'm sure it tasted different. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Meanwhile,
they Heines introduced the top down squeeze bottle in two
thousand and seven after success with Hines ketchup bottles in
that style, and I didn't I did not hear anyone
railing against that one. But if you remember any railing.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Let us know, please.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Uh. In further label news, in twenty nineteen, with Big
Ben undergoing repairs, HP's label included the scaffold in its
label illustration and that stayed on the label through the
end of construction. In twenty twenty two, and an excellent
magazine called Scaffold mag wrote about it extensively. I love that.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
You too, Are you too? I? Lauren and I before
we started recording, we're discussing some outrage that comes after
big changes. Yeah, small changes.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Yeah, just fandom in general sort of, but yeah, but
certainly surrounding foods. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Yeah, but it is interesting to me that not only
can there be oh you change the flavor, there's also
you changed the label. Oh yeah, we humans, we have allegiances.
Sometimes sometimes it's.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Hard to it is it is, it truly is as
a person who gets viscerally upset every time Wikipedia changes.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Its luck and then you get used to that look
and then they change it again.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yes, yeah, Mine currently has a little sidebar where you
can change it for yourself, and so I've got it
how I like it.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
But okay, yeah, not that I can't do that with
food products, So yeah, it's harder.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Not that I do all of my research. I don't
want you guys to think that I do all my
reading on Wikipedia. But it is a very good way
to like get a get a basic overview of a topic,
or to learn how to pronounce a poet's name from
the eighteen hundreds that you've seen written and haven't really
talked about out loud that much like code isn't code Coleridge. Yeah,
(27:48):
there you go. Yes, yes, get pronunciations for names like that.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
Yeah, it's a good it's good, fat, it's good. It's
a good resource. Yeah. Starter it started like, I hope
I didn't miss something. Yeah, you use it to check
and maybe it's nothing.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
I have enough point, you know.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Yeah, definitely, definitely, But yes, this was a really fascinating one.
It was again something I sort of suggested on a
whim and turned out to be. I have a lot
of history behind it, so we would love to hear
from listeners if you have memories about it, if your
(28:36):
dad was super into it, or anyone in your life
was super into it, if you have your favorite uses
for it. Yes, And if you're mad about the move
and the teast.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
And yeah, yeah, if you're if you're if you're mad
with a y like so mad that you're mad about
anything food related, we would love to hear about that.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
You would probably enough or nice things too, either, we do.
The nice things are good as well. The nice things
are good as well. If you're mad, please keep it
nice as well. Yeah, but we do like hearing about
that would you like hearing about that. I think that's
what we have to say about HP for now. It is,
(29:23):
it is.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
We do already have some listener mail for you, though,
and we are going to get into that as soon
as we get back from one more quick break for
a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
And we're back.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
Thank you, sponsors, Yes, thank you, and we're back with listeners.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
The mysteries of how I had HP saus I never
tried it to my house.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
You know, you know, some things are sacred, Some things
are sacred.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
I also had kind of a strange beef is not
the right word, but I with my dad where he
would like foods and I would purposely not try them.
I don't remember that being the case in this instance,
but it's possible that it was. What a string? Again,
humans are so interesting?
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, we're up to lots of stuff.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Oh you like that?
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Not for me?
Speaker 3 (30:36):
Not?
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Have I tried it?
Speaker 1 (30:37):
No, don't need to you like it. I'm out. So
we've got some fun listener mail here. Jack wrote, just
listen to your Pizza Hut episode, and I laughed out
loud several times. I especially appreciated the Pizza Wars Airships section.
(30:59):
I was laughing for a while during Lauren's description of
the crash, and it made me think, have you guys
ever had to mute yourself while recording because you're laughing
too hard? Thanks again for being one of the things
that always anchors me during the hard times. I hope
you both are doing well. Oh well, thank.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
You, thank you. Yes, absolutely, we don't have a mute button.
A lot of like fancy studios will have a mute
button on their MIC that you can just sort of press,
like like a little pedal or a little hand button.
We don't have that. Or if you do, Annie, then
you're on a fancier setup than I am. But but
there are definitely times and you can probably if you
(31:40):
listen real close, like super producer Andrew is amazing, But
if you listen real close, you can probably hear in
the edit where it's usually me.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
I usually crack up.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Very occasionally, I get Annie really good.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
This episode was a good example.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
But but yeah, or or like we'll just we'll like
clearly like like like make eye contact through our little
video screen and take a pause and crack up and
then come back and restart.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Yes, there there are definitely laughter breaks. I would say.
And there are times when if we were in a
just a conversation, not recording the podcast, I would laugh
out loud. Yeah sure, sure, but but you know, that
(32:34):
was one of the earliest complaints that really stuck with
me as somebody who told me, like, you laugh way
too much, and it's understandable, like you don't want the
whole thing to be laughter. Sure, I think some laughter
is really good. Oh yeah, but so it is a
thing that I'm usually this is not the time I
(32:55):
should be laughing, even though I think it's funny, right, right,
it's something so like the the Pizza Hut air war story,
Like I thought that was funny too, but I was
trying really hard not to laugh because what was really
funny about it was your delivery, and then it was
so serious. Right, So there are certain instances where even
(33:16):
though I would laugh if we were just talking because
we're recording, right, right, try not to. But that doesn't
always work.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
A little bit more buttoned up sure, yeah, uh yeah,
same when when I was when I first started recording.
If any of y'all have been with me since the
tech stuff days, goodness, my gracious were all old Welcome
to being old. But uh, but yeah, that was a
complaint that I got a lot, because as a conversationalist,
I laugh a lot. I laugh for punctuation, I laugh
for like human connection. I genuinely think a lot of
(33:48):
things are funny. And I also, if y'all haven't noticed,
have like a very distinctive laugh. And I think that
the combination of those two things, along with not having
a stage presence yet, made it probably a little obnoxious
to listen to. And people were also very impolite about
saying that. So so it's something that I really watched
myself on and the fact that I do laugh so
(34:10):
much on this show means that I'm either slowly going
more crazy or that I'm comfortable with all y'all. I
hope it. So just let me know just a little,
just a little both, just a little little first one
for spice, you know, yes, for seasoning, just put it
on there like HP sauce.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
But yeah, but that being said, yeah, I genuinely I
hope that you're doing well too.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
Yeah, thank you for the email, because we do. We
enjoyed those things as well, and we enjoy a good laugh.
So nice hearing from someone who.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Yes, Christine wrote I've been composing a long email covering
topics such as further adventures with Easter breads, goats, carrot pudding,
and mountain dew. Apparently suckers you like long emails. However,
I've been compelled to write, overcome by a wave of
nostalgia by the Pizza Hut episode. Pizza Hut was a
(35:14):
special occasion restaurant for Australians in the nineteen seventies and
nineteen eighties. There weren't many others sit down options then.
I don't remember the pizza, but I do remember several
birthdays there, the red and white table claws, and the ads.
Oh the ads. My brain is crammed with food ads
from childhood, which is probably why I have trouble remembering
stuff like washing the clothes. A Pizza Hut in Australia
(35:36):
is a sad memory. It's still around, but Domino's definitely
won the pizza war here in Australia. Along the way
the pizza Wars claimed a local national pizza chain, Eagle Boys, Australia,
just wasn't big enough to support three chains offering crap pizza.
When I asked my friends about it, they all had
similar memories to me. Couldn't really remember the pizza, but
(35:57):
could remember several birthday parties and the decor. I also
asked the Australian nostalgia sub on Reddit, and there we
concluded the introduction of the all you can eat buffets
and the pasta offerings were what really doomed Pizza Hut.
Both pizza and pasta are best eaten fresh, not after
sitting in a bond marie for a while. One contributor
(36:19):
who worked at Pizza Hut for years stated they used
to make everything in house, from the dough to the sauces,
and all the toppings were freshly prepared during the day.
Around the time the buffets were introduced, everything changed to
mass produced and ingredients brought in frozen. That was when
this contributor quit and opened their own pizzeria, which is
apparently still going strong thirty years later. They didn't say
(36:39):
where it was I should ask. Still, the pizza wars
did lead to the rise of independent pizzerias which still
offered a sit down quality pizza experience rather than overpriced yuck.
There's even a few regional and national chains. Perhaps if
Pizza Hut had concentrated on the things that made their
brand great to begin with. They would still be a powerhouse.
(37:01):
I don't know if they'll be able to surf the
nostalgia wave here. Most of the iconic redroof locations are gone,
with remaining locations in shopping strips catering to takeaway and
delivery not really conducive to an enjoyable dining experience. I
remember the introduction of the stuffed crust pizza with an
ad featuring uh Linda Evangelista and Cindy Crawford a show
(37:22):
in my age here they were supermodels in the eighties
and nineties For younger listeners. The unique product that I
remember the most though, was the Kalisa Sure, a cross
between a cal zone and a pizza. The ad campaign
here focused on the idea that the Kalisa would be
so popular people would think the restaurants were called Kaliza Hut,
(37:45):
not Pizza Hut. Clearly that campaign was a success, seeing
as I can still remember it forty years later. I
still remember the jingle when the pan pizzas were introduced
as well. No wonder I can't always remember where I
the car. Well, this turned out to be longer than expected.
I do have to end though by being horrified that
(38:07):
Annie couldn't remember the Transformers had the all Spark. If
I'd been there, I would have made you write Transformers
had the all Spark five hundred times all Life. Indeed,
next thing you'll be telling me Megaton always transformed into
a fighter jet.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
Oh oh no. Well, there's a lot to unpack here,
but let me start with an apology shots fired. Oh
I'm so sorry my nerd card is getting pulled. So
Lauren is the one who caught this mistake. I'm glad
that you did in post. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
Yeah, we were queueing the episode and I was like, oh.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
No, yeah yeah. So when we were listening to it
after we already recorded it, Lauren was like, oh gosh,
this is an error that you've made and put in
the description. Okay, So Annie is confusing an item a
very important thing in our Dungeons and Dragons campaign, the
(39:08):
all Life, with something in Transformers, the all Spark, which
is what happened. And I even joked in an episode
that I have too many NERD references now that I
can't keep them straight, so I feel like I'm just
being on brand. But also, yeah, I, to be honest,
(39:31):
have only seen the first Transformers movie and wrote the
ride you can yell at me more. I will take it.
It's fine, but I appreciate the enthusiasm, the correction. I
take it to heart. Yeah, and I hope I never
make such a mistake again.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
I mean, everyone including Megaton, is counting on you.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
So I, oh no, not Megaton. I can't handle the pressure.
I guess you won't be a fighter jet, but I
don't know.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Wow, Okay, I can hear the emails being typed.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
Yes, this escape from this particular part of the conversation
before it gets worse.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
Yes, what lovely and detailed visions of Pizza Hut you
have brought back to us.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
Goodness. Yeah, this was really fascinating to see how the
Pizza Wars played out in Australia and just hearing the
nostalgia that I mentioned that you experienced as well in Australia.
(40:59):
Some thing about it is just a very nostalgic restaurant.
And these ads you're talking about like they stick with you.
There's something about their ad campaigns that were so successful.
The comparison to Dominoes, which we talked a lot about.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
And the fact that it was all kind of crap,
like yeah, and perhaps even as a child you knew.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
That, yes, yes, But it's also interesting to me that
you saw this like rise of independent pizza places after this.
And I will say this was in my limited experience
when I was in Australia, a lot of the topics
(41:43):
at places I went to were better than the tops
Oh really the United States. Now that being said, it's
very specific. I think to where I was in the
US getting those toppings. I don't think that's the case
for the entire US, but where I was in the
US getting those toppings versus where I was in Australia
(42:05):
getting the toppings that this is way better than well,
we have in the US. But like I said, that's
very anecdotal specific.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
Yeah, yeah, I'd have to look into it. Sure, Yeah,
I'm sure that there was a lot of we didn't
or I didn't. I don't think either of us ran
across much information about the kind of back of house
stuff that you're talking about here with or that the
human from Reddit had mentioned about working there and when
(42:34):
they started mass producing and bringing in frozen ingredients. But
I know that a lot of that was in general
going on in restaurant kitchens, especially chain restaurant kitchens in
like the mid to late nineties through the early twenty
teens as a big wave, and so I'm sure that
similar things were going on here in the US, and
(42:57):
all of that is super fascinating and I would love
to in a kind of kind of dry, corporate sort
of way, and I would love to get into it sometimes.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Yeah. Well, as we mentioned in that Pizzahead episode, it
gave us a lot of future topics. Oh yeah, so
oh yeah, returning to those sometimes.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
Yes and that Pizza Hut, Stuffed Crest, Yes and other
Shenanigans episode is for share coming.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
Yes and listeners in lieu of that, if you would
like to contribute ahead of time from especially if you're
not if you're outside of the United States and you
know what the stuffed cross situation is where you are,
please let us know because it's really really interesting and
(43:52):
I'm very excited to do it.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
It's so weird, so fabulously weird.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
So good, so good. But in the meantime, thank you
to both of these listeners for writing in. If you
would like to write to us, you can. Our email
is Hello at saverpod dot com.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
You can also find us on social media. We are
on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram at saver pod and we
do hope to hear from you. Save is production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts my heart Radio, you can visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows. You can also find us on social media.
We are on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram at saver pod
(44:30):
and we do hope to hear from you. Save is
production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio,
you can visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows. Thanks as always to
our superproducers Dylan Fagan and Andrew Howard. Thanks to you
for listening, and we hope that lots more good things
are coming your way
Hello, and welcome to Savior production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I'm Annie and Unlarned Vocal Bomb, and today we have
an episode for you about HP sauce.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Yes, not a sponsor, Nope, Nope, nope. But this is
kind of a belated one. Yes, we're a little behind,
but it's related to Father's Day.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Yes, happy belated Father's Day to anybody celebrating.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Yes. So you had asked me if I had any
topic ideas for Father's Day, and I, as usual, gave
you way too.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Maybe it's great, it's great.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
But one of them was HP sauce because my dad
loved HP sauce. He would look back at this, I'm
kind of confused, but I guess we weren't able to
get it in our small town. So he would order
it from Afar Sure, and so he would get like
(01:12):
twelve plus bottles.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Yeah, like at least sure yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Of HP sauce at a time, and they would be
sitting in our pantry. And I was telling you before this, Lauren,
I don't think I ever tried it because it was his,
it was his special sauce. It was his sauce that
he liked. Yeah, and I got a little nostalgic thinking
back on it. But some of the reading I found
(01:40):
really interesting because my dad grew up in that he
ate a lot of what people would call like cheaper foods.
He like grits and things like that in the South,
which yes, there are expensive grits, but for him, it
was much more of you know, this is what we have.
(02:02):
And he had this fear of bad meat okay, so
he would and eat certain meats, especially chicken okay. And
he preferred canned meats okay. And it was just funny
reading this because there were so many things I was
reading where I was like, Okay, this sounds like the
(02:23):
thing that you used to make something kind of blander
boring a little more exciting.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Yeah. Yeah, that's sort of the vibe of it. Although
I don't want to get into too much hot water
about it. I'm not judging in any way. No, like
what you like, sauce, what you sauce?
Speaker 1 (02:43):
You know. Yes, he was definitely the condiment. I think
we used to call him like he had some nickname
with convent in it. He used a lot of condiments,
but he liked like the food was the base and
then the condiments were the what you added to make
it more interesting.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Yeah. Yeah, they were the main flavor event of the meal.
It wasn't like how you cooked it. It was like
what condiments you put on after the fact. Yeah, yes, absolutely,
m absolutely. Oh humans are fascinating. Yeah yeah, but you
still haven't had it to this day, right.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
As far as I know, I haven't. Uh, I remember
wanting to try it. I don't think he would have
been like, no, you can't have it, but it had
some sort of like this is a rare.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Thing, especially in the times when right, like, it wasn't
at your local grocery store in the international food style. Yes,
like before that time, sure it was a little bit
trickier to get a hold of.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Yeah. So yeah, I don't believe I've had it, but
it's quite possible that I have. But it wasn't my
house all the time.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
I've definitely experienced stage piece sauce, either through like like
British or perhaps Irish or Scottish pubs around Atlanta, or
maybe that one time that I was in England for
a week or so. I fully believe that I put
some on my like full breakfast that I had every day,
because why not.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
M h.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
And yeah, it's a condiment. It's salty and sweet and delicious.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, again, I don't want to make anybody
feel bad. I just don't in my experience. That sounds
horrible just to say it. I'm just saying my dad's experience.
He was using it in this case of using it
for bland foods, which I did read about during this research.
(04:48):
But I know people use it for other things.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
So absolutely, yes, which we will certainly get into.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Yes we will. You can see our past episodes on
various sauces and connaments like ketchup and Garam Worcester.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Sure, yeah, you got it, good job, good job. Also
a tamarind tomato. Yeah, there's probably a few others in there.
Sure yeah, of course. Well, I guess this brings us
to our question. Hpie Sauce.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
What is it?
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Well. HP Sauce is a brand of brown sauce, which
is a condiment typically made from purred and cooked down
tomatoes with malt, vinegar, and some kind of sweet fruit
and spices, creating a zingy, savory, sweet tart sauce that's
thick but porrible and a slightly translucent brown in color.
(05:50):
The brand HP makes a few varieties of condiments, but
that that I just described as kind of like the
go to classic one. It can be you used in
a marinade or as an ingredient and like a hearty
stew or castrole sort of situation. But it's perhaps more
often used as a spread on sandwiches or like served
table side for people to use as a sauce or
(06:13):
dip for kind of savory fatty dishes like a breakfast
platter or French fries or lots of different beef for
pork kind of dishes, because it kind of like cuts
and combines with those heavy flavors, bringing a little bit
of brightness in. It's sort of like a like a
non creamy, zesty gravy or like an alternate dimension tomato ketchup.
(06:37):
Things like steak sauce and brown barbecue sauces are definitely
in the same family. It's just sort of like nice
and perky and nostalgic, sort of like safely interesting. HP
sauce is like, okay, this is this is a weird one,
but it popped in my head and I can't stop
thinking about it. All right. It's like if you fell
(06:58):
asleep watch or listening to your favorite broadcast program back
in the day when stations went offline for the night
and then you woke up to just gentle static. It's
like eating that nice soft static.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
It's pretty deep scout, layers of nostalgia, layers of comfort
in there.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Yeah yeah, kind of zy, yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
I don't know like it.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
I've been watching too many horror movies about television. It's great, okay, anyway, too, okay,
all right. So the HP brand's original sauce is the
really ubiquitous one, especially in England where it is originally from.
More on that later, And that one is right made
with tomato, malt, vinegar, molasses, dates, some rye, tamarind and
(07:59):
some other sweeteners and flavorings and thickeners, so you've got
this sort of warm, round, zingy flavor there. Homemade dupes
of it often call for spices like ginger, bay, starr
anis cloves, allspice, and juniper. Just to give you a
little bit of an idea of the profile.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
Yea.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
And again there are other brands of brown sauce you
can make it at home, and other varieties of HP sauce,
But you kind of see that original on like every
pub table in England, perhaps less often throughout the rest
of the UK and various territories. It typically comes in
a glass bottle that's squared on its sides and has
(08:40):
a round lip, in a nine ounce that's two hundred
and fifty five gram size. Larger packages, including slightly larger
squeeze bottles, are in plastic, including two Lead restaurants supply jugs.
Oh yeah, the label is pretty iconic, and I don't
think we've always mentioned brands labels, which is an oversight
for sure.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
So this one is like.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Pale blue with an illustration of the House of Parliament
building and Big Ben also done in this darker blue,
and then a sort of flag for the name that's
navy and red with the lettering and white. Those other
varieties of HP. Yeah, you've got HP Fruity, which is
a milder sauce with added mango chutney and orange. HP Bold,
(09:24):
which I understand is a bit spicier and is generally
only available in Canada, and its label definitely has the
silhouette of like a dude wearing a cowboy hat and
he's got a lasso in his hand and he's riding
a bucking horse. I don't know what's going on with
that guy, but I love it. There's also a classic
(09:44):
barbecue sauce that they make. That one has no malt,
vinegar or tamarind, but added woodsmoke flavor, sounds like barbecue
and then HP reduced salt and sugar.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
I think there's been a few others over the years,
but that's what I could find for sale current. I
will say their website is down right now. Something's going
on with Hinds, so I don't know. Yeah, because their
current corporate overlords are in fact Hinds. Yeah, yes, yep,
(10:16):
and yeah. The most common or maybe infamous ways that
it's used is as a topping on usually inexpensive sort
of heavy comfort food, right like full breakfasts, or really
anything involving eggs or sausage or beans or toast or
potatoes like maybe bacon sandwiches, shepherd's pie or other meat pies,
(10:39):
Welsh rabbit bangers and mash fish and chips. You can
also mix it with other sauces as a condiment, maybe
more melt vinegar to bin it out, or something like
mayo or sour cream to make it creamy, you know,
put a little bit in whatever super stew or casserole
or savory pie you're making to add depth of flavor.
Add it to ground meat if you're making burgers or meatballs,
use it in a marinade. If I've left off your favorite,
(11:01):
use do write in.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Oh yes, Because something else I came across in this
research is my dad also loved Hines fifty seven. Okay,
please don't yell at me, but a lot of things
would were comparing them when I was researching this, and
A one Yeah that was too fancy for our house.
(11:24):
I don't know, but he did use like HP was
more of a like regular everyday meal and the Hind
fifty seven was usually be.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Related okay, like a special occasion fancy or meal stakes.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I would love
if listeners could write it. If you have thoughts about.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Off the top of my head, I couldn't. I mean, like,
I'm sure that if I tasted the two of them
in a row, I could tell you basically the differences there.
I'm good at that game. But but off the top
of my head, I genuinely can't think of how they're
very different other than maybe HP is like a little fruitier. Yeah,
(12:11):
I'm really trying, and I'm coming up with nothing.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Further research is required.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, it.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Could have very well just been like a label thing,
because I feel like heind fifty seven was it was
pushed is more of a beef steak sauce, and HP
was more like whatever whatever you want. Yeah, yeah, but
yeah again listeners right in. Yeah, well, what about the nutrition.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
You're not usually eating enough to make like a huge
nutritive difference. It's as with any kind of process sauce
like this, it's gonna be a little bit heavy on
the salt and sugar. You know. It's watch your portion sizes.
Drink drink water. Eat a vegetable in with all that
sausage especially. Yeah, Like I will count unprocessed tomato slices
(13:05):
if that helps you eat a vegetable.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
I like this. I like how we've become. Okay, I'll
give you a pass on this, but.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
I personally find that the tomato slices are a very
important part of a full breakfast.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
But I do too, Okay, I really like them. Yeah, well,
we do have some numbers for you.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Ye.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Apparently the Nottingham Castle Museums and Galleries has one of
the earliest bottles of HP sauce with a creator's name
on it on display, perfectly preserved. Again, listeners, right in
you have pictures, I would love to see them.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Yeah, yes, any museum quality HP sauce experiences are very
important to us. Okay, HP does seem to hover at
around like seventy to seventy five percent of the brown
sauce market in the UK, although the same brand does
(14:10):
own the runner up brown sauce called Daddies a little
bit unfortunately in the current parlance. But here we are. Yeah.
As of twenty twelve, HP original was selling about twenty
seven point five million bottles a year, and I think
that stayed approximately the same.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Yeah, it's popular. It's really really popular, and it's got
quite a history behind how it became so popular.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
It does, and we are going to get into that
as soon as we get back from a quick break
forward from our sponsors and we're back. Thank you sponsor, Yes,
thank you.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
All right, So as the story goes, and there are
many stories and we're going to hear them. HP sauce
was invented by Frederick Gibson Garton, and I have read
that he invented it while he was at a Nottinghamshire grocer.
I've read he invented it at a pickling factory. The
(15:24):
most commonly reported history is that at the time he
came up with this recipe he was working at the
Midland Vinegar Company in Birmingham. Okay, it is safe to
say he was involved in the food industry in one
way or another, and the recipe also was a showcase
of the British Empire and imperialism when it came to
(15:46):
the ingredients, because it had tamer and dates, molasses, tomatoes
and soy added with pure vinegar. Whatever the case in
terms of time and place, he came up with this
recipe sometimes during the eighteen seventies and went on to
patent it in eighteen ninety six. It was originally called
(16:07):
the Banquet sauce, which is kind of funny given its
reputation today as something simplistic, wonderful but best alongside quote
simple dishes. So why the name change. There are so
many legends behind it, so let's break down some of
(16:28):
the more popular ones. One Garton heard that they were
serving the sauce in the House of Parliament, so he
decided to call it HP or Alternatively, he named it
that to make the claim that it was being served
in the House of Parliament without any evidence backing it up.
(16:49):
In this version of the story, he changed the name
to Garten's HP Sauce to capitalize on the love Parliament
had for it. Sure or not two it's named after
Harry Palmer, an alleged notorious gambler who sold a recipe
for Harry Palmer's famous EPSOM sauce to cover his gambling debts. However,
(17:13):
this is a really popular story. It's fun, but there's
nothing concrete to back it up. Nope, nope, not a thing.
Wherever the name came from. A vinegar manufacturer purchased the
recipe for one hundred and fifty pounds to collect on
Garden's debt. Soon after, he debuted the sauce and relaunched
(17:33):
it themselves in nineteen oh three.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
And that wasn't nothing like that's about a fifteen thousand
pounds in today's money, but you know, like a good investment.
I would say yes.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
And they really leaned into the House of Parliament angle,
putting a House of Parliament lithograph on the label. And
by this point it was already fairly successful.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
I think the image was different than it is now though,
with like Victoria Tower in the foreground and Big Ben
in the back, which was apparently how the building was
often imaged at the time.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Yes, and this is where I get to the section
that I call there's so many Mary's in this story. Okay,
So to add some more intrigue, some claim that the
sauce was actually invented by Mary Moore, who was the
wife of the owner of this vinegar manufacturing plant, the
Midland Vinegar Company. So in this case, Garden either stole
(18:32):
it or did not credit her. But there's another take
on this, that it was her husband's idea to call
it HP after the House of Parliament, or that they
purchased the name from Garden and applied it to her sauce.
Theories abound, I tell you. Others claim that the sauce
(18:53):
was first made by a man named David Hoe who
sold the recipe to Garden, or that it was his
wife Mary who created it. Oh it's a lot, you know. Yeah.
We're saying is that there's a lot going on in
the sauce. There is a lot going on in the sauce.
(19:17):
People were very eager to say that they invented it
or had a hand in it. Yes, yes, so much
so people started making similar sauces. In nineteen oh four,
a brown sauce named Daddy's Favorite went into production for
a cheaper price.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
I'm pretty sure that this one was not a rival,
that it was put out by the HP brand as
a lower cost alternative. Later they would expand the Daddy's
line to include a tomato ketchup.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
During the food shortages of the world Wars, HP was
marketed as a way to give low quality meat and
left more flavor and In nineteen forty John Betchman, who
went on to become Poet Laureate of the UK from
nineteen seventy two to nineteen eighty four, wrote in his
poem Lake District, I pledge her a non alcoholic wine
(20:16):
and give the HP sauce another shake.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
I went on a tangent about this one. Okay, I
want to give y'all the whole stanza. This is the
two stands of poem. This is the first stanza. I
passed the crew and I see the lake running with
light beyond the garden pine, that lake whose waters make
me dream her mind up to the top board mounting
for my sake, for me, She breathes for me, each
(20:41):
softened take for me, the plunge, the lake and limbs combine.
I pledge her in non alcoholic wine and give the
HP sauce another shake. So okay, very briefly, the Lake
District is this lovely area and national park in England,
partially known for attracting famous literary people. There was this
(21:05):
loose group of like mostly Romantic Movement poets who lived
and worked there in the early eighteen hundreds who came
to be known as the Lake Poets, including like Wordsworth
and Samuel Taylor Coleridge. So Betchman is invoking just a
lot in this small space working in the nineteen forties,
(21:25):
you know, talking about this kind of pastoral poetic thing,
but also HP sauce.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Yes, yeah, I was.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
An English major. Can you tell?
Speaker 1 (21:44):
HP did become a staple in UK households, in restaurants
like diners, and it gained a legion of fans. They
listed the two World Wars and started pumping out new flavors.
They purchased lean parents of Bushish sauce and rename themselves
HP Foods.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
And sometime after the World Wars they did re illustrate
the label to put big ben in the foreground. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Yes. In nineteen sixty seven they were purchased by Rural
Tobacco as the company was looking to expand into food.
I'm amazed when we do this research, how many times
companies are like, let's try expanding into this thing. That's
not our that's not our thing at all. Yep. Due
to Prime Minister Harold Wilson's affinity for the sauce, it
(22:37):
became known as Wilson's sauce. During the nineteen sixties and seventies.
His wife said he would quote drown everything in HP sauce.
Though this was apparently part of trying to create an
image of him as this like man of the people,
sort of like, oh he drinks beer too, yeah, American politics.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Yeah yeah. Not sure how accurate it was, but supposedly
he liked it.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Supposedly he liked it, and it was a big political
point where they were like, oh, he likes it. This
is fascinating, and this is a fun rabbit hole if
you're looking for one. Up until nineteen eighty four, the
bottles of HP had been adorned with French assertions about
the sauces quality. Some of them were like health related,
(23:29):
They were very intense. When the company dropped them, some
people were shook and they wrote in about how sad
they were to lose them. And there is a comedy
bit that was done just based on these French writings
that had been on the HP sauce bottles. So fascinated.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Yeah, yeah. Somehow after that, the French food mega company
Danin bought the brand in nineteen eighty eight for I
believe one hundred and ninety nine million pounds.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Who and then Hines acquired HP in two thousand and
five for eight hundred and fifty five million dollars. In
a controversial move, they relocated production of the sauce from
the UK to the Netherlands in two thousand and six.
People were so angry about it that there was a
(24:26):
short lived boycott of this company in the UK.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Yeah, yep, yeah, So Hines already had this plant in
the Netherlands. They were like, it'll be more efficient to
do it this way, but there was outrage. The Mirror
led an article about it with the line is nothing
sacred in this world? Daily Mail had a headline that
(24:51):
went the sauce of it HP is Wedding Britain for Holland.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
And then came the theories did they change their recipe.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
They had in twenty eleven, Hines reduced sodium levels in
the sauce to align with this new government regulation about
the amount of sodium you can have in a sauce.
They reduced the sodium by about a third, from about
two point one percent of the product by weight to
one point three percent, and people were mayd, mayd, I've
(25:28):
I've read a sort of unbalanced the flavors, which I'm sure,
I'm sure it tasted different. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Meanwhile,
they Heines introduced the top down squeeze bottle in two
thousand and seven after success with Hines ketchup bottles in
that style, and I didn't I did not hear anyone
railing against that one. But if you remember any railing.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Let us know, please.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Uh. In further label news, in twenty nineteen, with Big
Ben undergoing repairs, HP's label included the scaffold in its
label illustration and that stayed on the label through the
end of construction. In twenty twenty two, and an excellent
magazine called Scaffold mag wrote about it extensively. I love that.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
You too, Are you too? I? Lauren and I before
we started recording, we're discussing some outrage that comes after
big changes. Yeah, small changes.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Yeah, just fandom in general sort of, but yeah, but
certainly surrounding foods. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Yeah, but it is interesting to me that not only
can there be oh you change the flavor, there's also
you changed the label. Oh yeah, we humans, we have allegiances.
Sometimes sometimes it's.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Hard to it is it is, it truly is as
a person who gets viscerally upset every time Wikipedia changes.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Its luck and then you get used to that look
and then they change it again.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yes, yeah, Mine currently has a little sidebar where you
can change it for yourself, and so I've got it
how I like it.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
But okay, yeah, not that I can't do that with
food products, So yeah, it's harder.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Not that I do all of my research. I don't
want you guys to think that I do all my
reading on Wikipedia. But it is a very good way
to like get a get a basic overview of a topic,
or to learn how to pronounce a poet's name from
the eighteen hundreds that you've seen written and haven't really
talked about out loud that much like code isn't code Coleridge. Yeah,
(27:48):
there you go. Yes, yes, get pronunciations for names like that.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
Yeah, it's a good it's good, fat, it's good. It's
a good resource. Yeah. Starter it started like, I hope
I didn't miss something. Yeah, you use it to check
and maybe it's nothing.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
I have enough point, you know.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Yeah, definitely, definitely, But yes, this was a really fascinating one.
It was again something I sort of suggested on a
whim and turned out to be. I have a lot
of history behind it, so we would love to hear
from listeners if you have memories about it, if your
(28:36):
dad was super into it, or anyone in your life
was super into it, if you have your favorite uses
for it. Yes, And if you're mad about the move
and the teast.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
And yeah, yeah, if you're if you're if you're mad
with a y like so mad that you're mad about
anything food related, we would love to hear about that.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
You would probably enough or nice things too, either, we do.
The nice things are good as well. The nice things
are good as well. If you're mad, please keep it
nice as well. Yeah, but we do like hearing about
that would you like hearing about that. I think that's
what we have to say about HP for now. It is,
(29:23):
it is.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
We do already have some listener mail for you, though,
and we are going to get into that as soon
as we get back from one more quick break for
a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
And we're back.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
Thank you, sponsors, Yes, thank you, and we're back with listeners.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
The mysteries of how I had HP saus I never
tried it to my house.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
You know, you know, some things are sacred, Some things
are sacred.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
I also had kind of a strange beef is not
the right word, but I with my dad where he
would like foods and I would purposely not try them.
I don't remember that being the case in this instance,
but it's possible that it was. What a string? Again,
humans are so interesting?
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, we're up to lots of stuff.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Oh you like that?
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Not for me?
Speaker 3 (30:36):
Not?
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Have I tried it?
Speaker 1 (30:37):
No, don't need to you like it. I'm out. So
we've got some fun listener mail here. Jack wrote, just
listen to your Pizza Hut episode, and I laughed out
loud several times. I especially appreciated the Pizza Wars Airships section.
(30:59):
I was laughing for a while during Lauren's description of
the crash, and it made me think, have you guys
ever had to mute yourself while recording because you're laughing
too hard? Thanks again for being one of the things
that always anchors me during the hard times. I hope
you both are doing well. Oh well, thank.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
You, thank you. Yes, absolutely, we don't have a mute button.
A lot of like fancy studios will have a mute
button on their MIC that you can just sort of press,
like like a little pedal or a little hand button.
We don't have that. Or if you do, Annie, then
you're on a fancier setup than I am. But but
there are definitely times and you can probably if you
(31:40):
listen real close, like super producer Andrew is amazing, But
if you listen real close, you can probably hear in
the edit where it's usually me.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
I usually crack up.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Very occasionally, I get Annie really good.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
This episode was a good example.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
But but yeah, or or like we'll just we'll like
clearly like like like make eye contact through our little
video screen and take a pause and crack up and
then come back and restart.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Yes, there there are definitely laughter breaks. I would say.
And there are times when if we were in a
just a conversation, not recording the podcast, I would laugh
out loud. Yeah sure, sure, but but you know, that
(32:34):
was one of the earliest complaints that really stuck with
me as somebody who told me, like, you laugh way
too much, and it's understandable, like you don't want the
whole thing to be laughter. Sure, I think some laughter
is really good. Oh yeah, but so it is a
thing that I'm usually this is not the time I
(32:55):
should be laughing, even though I think it's funny, right, right,
it's something so like the the Pizza Hut air war story,
Like I thought that was funny too, but I was
trying really hard not to laugh because what was really
funny about it was your delivery, and then it was
so serious. Right, So there are certain instances where even
(33:16):
though I would laugh if we were just talking because
we're recording, right, right, try not to. But that doesn't
always work.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
A little bit more buttoned up sure, yeah, uh yeah,
same when when I was when I first started recording.
If any of y'all have been with me since the
tech stuff days, goodness, my gracious were all old Welcome
to being old. But uh, but yeah, that was a
complaint that I got a lot, because as a conversationalist,
I laugh a lot. I laugh for punctuation, I laugh
for like human connection. I genuinely think a lot of
(33:48):
things are funny. And I also, if y'all haven't noticed,
have like a very distinctive laugh. And I think that
the combination of those two things, along with not having
a stage presence yet, made it probably a little obnoxious
to listen to. And people were also very impolite about
saying that. So so it's something that I really watched
myself on and the fact that I do laugh so
(34:10):
much on this show means that I'm either slowly going
more crazy or that I'm comfortable with all y'all. I
hope it. So just let me know just a little,
just a little both, just a little little first one
for spice, you know, yes, for seasoning, just put it
on there like HP sauce.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
But yeah, but that being said, yeah, I genuinely I
hope that you're doing well too.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
Yeah, thank you for the email, because we do. We
enjoyed those things as well, and we enjoy a good laugh.
So nice hearing from someone who.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Yes, Christine wrote I've been composing a long email covering
topics such as further adventures with Easter breads, goats, carrot pudding,
and mountain dew. Apparently suckers you like long emails. However,
I've been compelled to write, overcome by a wave of
nostalgia by the Pizza Hut episode. Pizza Hut was a
(35:14):
special occasion restaurant for Australians in the nineteen seventies and
nineteen eighties. There weren't many others sit down options then.
I don't remember the pizza, but I do remember several
birthdays there, the red and white table claws, and the ads.
Oh the ads. My brain is crammed with food ads
from childhood, which is probably why I have trouble remembering
stuff like washing the clothes. A Pizza Hut in Australia
(35:36):
is a sad memory. It's still around, but Domino's definitely
won the pizza war here in Australia. Along the way
the pizza Wars claimed a local national pizza chain, Eagle Boys, Australia,
just wasn't big enough to support three chains offering crap pizza.
When I asked my friends about it, they all had
similar memories to me. Couldn't really remember the pizza, but
(35:57):
could remember several birthday parties and the decor. I also
asked the Australian nostalgia sub on Reddit, and there we
concluded the introduction of the all you can eat buffets
and the pasta offerings were what really doomed Pizza Hut.
Both pizza and pasta are best eaten fresh, not after
sitting in a bond marie for a while. One contributor
(36:19):
who worked at Pizza Hut for years stated they used
to make everything in house, from the dough to the sauces,
and all the toppings were freshly prepared during the day.
Around the time the buffets were introduced, everything changed to
mass produced and ingredients brought in frozen. That was when
this contributor quit and opened their own pizzeria, which is
apparently still going strong thirty years later. They didn't say
(36:39):
where it was I should ask. Still, the pizza wars
did lead to the rise of independent pizzerias which still
offered a sit down quality pizza experience rather than overpriced yuck.
There's even a few regional and national chains. Perhaps if
Pizza Hut had concentrated on the things that made their
brand great to begin with. They would still be a powerhouse.
(37:01):
I don't know if they'll be able to surf the
nostalgia wave here. Most of the iconic redroof locations are gone,
with remaining locations in shopping strips catering to takeaway and
delivery not really conducive to an enjoyable dining experience. I
remember the introduction of the stuffed crust pizza with an
ad featuring uh Linda Evangelista and Cindy Crawford a show
(37:22):
in my age here they were supermodels in the eighties
and nineties For younger listeners. The unique product that I
remember the most though, was the Kalisa Sure, a cross
between a cal zone and a pizza. The ad campaign
here focused on the idea that the Kalisa would be
so popular people would think the restaurants were called Kaliza Hut,
(37:45):
not Pizza Hut. Clearly that campaign was a success, seeing
as I can still remember it forty years later. I
still remember the jingle when the pan pizzas were introduced
as well. No wonder I can't always remember where I
the car. Well, this turned out to be longer than expected.
I do have to end though by being horrified that
(38:07):
Annie couldn't remember the Transformers had the all Spark. If
I'd been there, I would have made you write Transformers
had the all Spark five hundred times all Life. Indeed,
next thing you'll be telling me Megaton always transformed into
a fighter jet.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
Oh oh no. Well, there's a lot to unpack here,
but let me start with an apology shots fired. Oh
I'm so sorry my nerd card is getting pulled. So
Lauren is the one who caught this mistake. I'm glad
that you did in post. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
Yeah, we were queueing the episode and I was like, oh.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
No, yeah yeah. So when we were listening to it
after we already recorded it, Lauren was like, oh gosh,
this is an error that you've made and put in
the description. Okay, So Annie is confusing an item a
very important thing in our Dungeons and Dragons campaign, the
(39:08):
all Life, with something in Transformers, the all Spark, which
is what happened. And I even joked in an episode
that I have too many NERD references now that I
can't keep them straight, so I feel like I'm just
being on brand. But also, yeah, I, to be honest,
(39:31):
have only seen the first Transformers movie and wrote the
ride you can yell at me more. I will take it.
It's fine, but I appreciate the enthusiasm, the correction. I
take it to heart. Yeah, and I hope I never
make such a mistake again.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
I mean, everyone including Megaton, is counting on you.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
So I, oh no, not Megaton. I can't handle the pressure.
I guess you won't be a fighter jet, but I
don't know.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Wow, Okay, I can hear the emails being typed.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
Yes, this escape from this particular part of the conversation
before it gets worse.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
Yes, what lovely and detailed visions of Pizza Hut you
have brought back to us.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
Goodness. Yeah, this was really fascinating to see how the
Pizza Wars played out in Australia and just hearing the
nostalgia that I mentioned that you experienced as well in Australia.
(40:59):
Some thing about it is just a very nostalgic restaurant.
And these ads you're talking about like they stick with you.
There's something about their ad campaigns that were so successful.
The comparison to Dominoes, which we talked a lot about.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
And the fact that it was all kind of crap,
like yeah, and perhaps even as a child you knew.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
That, yes, yes, But it's also interesting to me that
you saw this like rise of independent pizza places after this.
And I will say this was in my limited experience
when I was in Australia, a lot of the topics
(41:43):
at places I went to were better than the tops
Oh really the United States. Now that being said, it's
very specific. I think to where I was in the
US getting those toppings. I don't think that's the case
for the entire US, but where I was in the
US getting those toppings versus where I was in Australia
(42:05):
getting the toppings that this is way better than well,
we have in the US. But like I said, that's
very anecdotal specific.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
Yeah, yeah, I'd have to look into it. Sure, Yeah,
I'm sure that there was a lot of we didn't
or I didn't. I don't think either of us ran
across much information about the kind of back of house
stuff that you're talking about here with or that the
human from Reddit had mentioned about working there and when
(42:34):
they started mass producing and bringing in frozen ingredients. But
I know that a lot of that was in general
going on in restaurant kitchens, especially chain restaurant kitchens in
like the mid to late nineties through the early twenty
teens as a big wave, and so I'm sure that
similar things were going on here in the US, and
(42:57):
all of that is super fascinating and I would love
to in a kind of kind of dry, corporate sort
of way, and I would love to get into it sometimes.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Yeah. Well, as we mentioned in that Pizzahead episode, it
gave us a lot of future topics. Oh yeah, so
oh yeah, returning to those sometimes.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
Yes and that Pizza Hut, Stuffed Crest, Yes and other
Shenanigans episode is for share coming.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
Yes and listeners in lieu of that, if you would
like to contribute ahead of time from especially if you're
not if you're outside of the United States and you
know what the stuffed cross situation is where you are,
please let us know because it's really really interesting and
(43:52):
I'm very excited to do it.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
It's so weird, so fabulously weird.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
So good, so good. But in the meantime, thank you
to both of these listeners for writing in. If you
would like to write to us, you can. Our email
is Hello at saverpod dot com.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
You can also find us on social media. We are
on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram at saver pod and we
do hope to hear from you. Save is production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts my heart Radio, you can visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows. You can also find us on social media.
We are on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram at saver pod
(44:30):
and we do hope to hear from you. Save is
production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio,
you can visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows. Thanks as always to
our superproducers Dylan Fagan and Andrew Howard. Thanks to you
for listening, and we hope that lots more good things
are coming your way
Savor News
Hosts And Creators
Anney Reese
Lauren Vogelbaum
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