January 11, 2012 • 26 mins
In this episode, Cristen and Caroline interview Mignon Fogarty, aka Grammar Girl. Listen in to learn if men and women pay attention to grammar differently, and if it's acceptable to refer to women as girls.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.
It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You?
From House top Works dot com. This podcast is brought
to you by Audible dot com, the Internet's leading provider
of audio books, with more than one hundred thousand downloadable
(00:20):
titles across all types of literature. For Stuff Mom Never
Told You listeners, Audible is offering a free audiobook to
give you a chance to try out their service. One
audio book to consider is The Feminine Mystique by Betty
fre Dan. This watershed work recently celebrated its thirtieth anniversary.
It changed views and attitudes and brought a fresh spotlight
(00:41):
on female equality. That's The Feminine Mystique by Betty fre Dann,
available from Audible. To try Audible free to day and
get a free audiobook of your choice, go to Audible
podcast dot com slash Mom Stuff. That's Audible podcast dot
com slash Mom Stuff. Hello and welcome to the podcast.
(01:04):
I'm Caroline and I'm Kristen. Today our podcast is an
interview with Grammar Girl herself, Mignon Bogerty. And this is
very exciting for me because ever since I was very little. Um,
I have been a total grammar nerd and it is
all my father's fault. He and he's like this because
his father was like this. I don't know what his
(01:26):
grandfather was like. I can't attest to that. But my
dad always corrected my speech, like every time I said anything.
And you would think that would be annoying, but I
was always like, oh, yeah, you're right. It is I
not me. You're right dad. And so yeah, that's how
I grew up to be such a grammar nerd. And
so this is very exciting. I am quite a grammar
nerd myself as well. And I have a special love
(01:47):
of dashes and semi colon's if they're used properly. People
people tend. People who throw to me colins around like
confetti up set me. I mean, it's a you know,
it is an intimidating punctuation mark. It is, but yeah,
you do kind of have to handle it with care.
We are totally grammar nerdy, Yeah we are right now.
But yeah, I was really excited to get to talk
(02:09):
to grammar Girl and really nerd out about grammar and
language and had some questions for her about how we
how gender intersects with grammar, and she also answered a
burning question that I have had about listeners particular distaste
(02:30):
for the phrase if you willer. Yeah, I I it's
something that the public, the public does not want it. Well,
there was a specific episode, um, I want to say,
it's why does the sizzle fizzle? And I think it
was after that a couple of listeners wrote in. They said, Kristin,
you are saying if you will all the time. It
is unnecessary verbal clutter. Get it out of there. And
(02:53):
I went back and listened and lo and behold, I
was if you will in left and right. I think
you should replace if you will with as you wish,
as you wish, as you wish, princess um and so
so yeah, it was fun to talk to the expert
about different different kinds of grammatical ticks and usage, and
also of course how Grammar Girl, who was a podcast goddess,
(03:17):
got her start and she now has UH it is
the flagship of the entire Quick and Dirty Tips franchise,
so it's pretty incredible. She's been podcasting for six years
and she started out as a as a technical writer.
She has a master's in science and that then did
(03:37):
some more technical writing. Interesting, you don't really hear about science. Sorry,
but you don't really hear about science people being awesome
a grammar Well that's kind of why, that's kind of
why grammar Girl even came into being. But I'll let
her tell you about that, Caroline. Interesting story. So, um,
with with no further uh, here is my interview with
(04:02):
Mignon Fogerty Grammar Girl. So Grammar Girl. I thought it
was very interesting that not only are you an expert
obviously in grammar, but you also have a master's in science.
(04:23):
So I was curious to know whether or not science
in language ever intersect for you these days. Well, there
are there are a few things that come up that
relate to science and grammar. The most obvious one is
passive voice, because you know, most people are taught that
passive voice is bad and they should never use it.
(04:43):
But in science writing it's sort of the standard. You know,
you'll say something in a scientific paper like, um, samples
were taken at five o'clock and ten o'clock and um.
You know, because you're always the scientists, you're always trying
to take yourself out of the writing to try and
maintain an air of objectivity, but even people in science
(05:05):
are trying. Some people are lobbying to get away from
so much use of the passive voice because it can
also be kind of hard to read. And then another
thing that comes to mind is the word data. So
data is one of those words that's changing how how
we use it in English? So um it comes from
Latin and dat um is the singular um, so typically
(05:31):
people say um, they treat data is plural the data
are interesting, but in common use it's becoming singular. So
in the newspaper or magazine it might be more common
to read the data is compelling, But scientists hold firmly
to that plural use of data, so it's not uncommon
(05:51):
at Obviously, data used as singular and plural, and it's
more often used as plural in science writing. So for
listeners to who might not be that familiar with Grammar
Girl and what you do, tell us how your podcast
and the the Grammar Girl franchise got off the ground,
(06:11):
right Well, I started a Grammar Girl gosh almost six
years ago now, and I was working as a technical
writer and a science writer, so I was working with
a lot of scientists editing their papers and even ghost
writing some papers, and um, I just noticed them making
the same mistakes over and over again, you know, and
I thought, if I have to replace that with a
(06:32):
witch one more time, I'm going to go crazy. So,
as almost a little passive aggressive thing, I started a
podcast as a hobby, just sort of to get those
rules out there. And I thought, nobody wants to have
a big, long grammar lesson, But if I can put
out a five minute quick tip every week about something
really useful, you know, like how do use a stomach
(06:54):
hole in or the difference between affect and effect, and
if I make it fun and light, and you know,
maybe people will listen, Maybe my clients will listen. And
it just became much more popular than I ever expected.
It was just sort of my hobby, and I guess
that's something from those days too that carries over because
a lot of those scientists were from other countries, and
(07:15):
I still hear from a lot of people who you know,
are learning English as a second language and they have
questions too, so they listen to the podcast too. So
in today's world of texting and tweeting and status updates,
where it seems like we're constantly abbreviating our language and
throwing out different kinds of slang and using text speak
(07:36):
and things like that. My big question is whether or
not grammar has lost its value. Well, in some ways,
I guess you could say it's lost it's I wouldn't
say it's lost its value, but there in a lot
of the instances in which we right now, like status updates,
there's a permissiveness. It's a very informal place to be writing,
(07:58):
and we're all writing so much more than we used
to because of these informal situations, and so, you know,
as always like a tweet or a Facebook status update,
it's a lot like you know, a note you used
to jot down on a post and leave on your
kitchen counter for your family, you know, And I don't
think anyone would hold you to the highest standards of
(08:19):
grammar for those jotted notes. And a lot of people
think of tweets and updates the same way. But then
they're also so much more public, and people do notice
when you use bad grammar or especially you know, people
just hate it when you get the wrong version of
it's or your um. You know, there have been whole
internet memes about making fun of you know, your with
(08:42):
an apostrophe versus not an apostrophe. So even though there
is that extra sense of informality or permissiveness, people still
notice and they will jump all over you if you
make mistakes. So what what, then, would you say is
the most important reason to pay attention to grammar today?
(09:03):
Because I feel like a lot of times, uh, grammar
is considered sort of stodgy and old school. Um So why,
especially for younger people too, why should we pay attention
to it? Well, you know, for me at least, I
often don't meet people in person that I'm working with. Um,
and so a lot of business correspondence or you know,
(09:25):
semi personal correspondence all happens in writing. And so you're
writing actually is how you're making your impression on people.
It's you know, I I say, it used to be
dressed for success, and now it's really right for success
because people are making all sorts of judgments about you
and your level of professionalism and your level of intelligence
(09:45):
by looking at the way you right. Um, I know,
when I'm hiring someone, I go when I look at
their Twitter feed and their Facebook updates. I mean it's
it's it's really part of your whole presence. Now now,
since we talk a lot of out gender differences on
step mom never told you, I have to ask you
(10:07):
whether or not you've noticed any gender differences in how
men and women use grammar? For instance, Uh, do women
pay more attention to grammar? Or do men tend to
pay more attention to grammar? Just just curious to know
whether or not you've seen any patterns like that. You know,
I've been thinking about this and I haven't noticed a
(10:29):
difference today between men and women. But what I do
hear a lot is from people who have older relatives
who are grammar sticklers, and they're almost always women. And
I think it's because a generation or two ago, you know,
women were the teachers. You know, it was much more
a profession that was limited to two women or female
(10:51):
so um, you know, I think that a few generations
ago there was more emphasis on writing and speaking properly,
and that came particularly from the women because they were teachers.
But today, you know, online and looking at the correspondence
between my my male and female friends, I haven't noticed
a big difference. And I'm not aware of any studies.
(11:13):
Doesn't mean they don't exist, but I'm not aware of
any studies that show that you know one or the
other are more mindful of their writing. Now, one reason
that I'm so glad that I got to talk to
you today is because you can help clear up from
an expert perspective. You can help clear up a question
that a male listener wrote in UM a couple of
(11:34):
weeks ago, asking whether or not it is appropriate to
refer to women as girls. And I feel like this
is especially appropriate because you are the grammar girl. So
what's what's your take on this? I know they do
have different connotations woman and girl, and uh, I specifically
(11:56):
called myself grammar girl because girl has, you know, a fun, friendly, light,
young feel to it, and grammar can be so intimidating.
You know, I wanted a name that was not scary,
and girls aren't scary. You know that you don't think
of girls as having a lot of power or being nastier, domineering.
(12:16):
So I think it all depends on the context too.
Like I would say, oh, I'm I'm going out for
drinks with my girls tonight, you know, my friends. But
if you know Hillary Clinton is waiting in the hallway
to come in and meet with some foreign diplomat you know,
to say, oh, there's a girl outside to see you
would be incredibly offensive and demeaning. So, you know, I
(12:37):
think I think you need to think about the context
in which you're using the word. And you know, woman
definitely carries more of a sense of importance and seriousness,
so it sort of depends on what you're going for.
Is always easier to call yourself a girl than to
have someone else call you a girl? Now, I thought
it was interesting I posed this question women of women
(12:59):
versus all on our stuff Mom Never Told You Facebook
page and received an overwhelming response, uh, most of the
time from women saying no, it's really not that appropriate
to to refer to, especially women you don't know, as girls.
But it seemed like the overwhelming consensus was that one
(13:20):
in doubt just referred to us as ladies. So what
are your thoughts on the youth then of lady, especially
in casual reference to women. There may be regional differences
because to me, ladies sounds very stuffy, and it sounds,
you know, like the women who launch our ladies. It
(13:41):
just or you know, a guy who's approaching women in
a bar might say, hey, ladies. Uh, so that can
have its weirdness too well. Since we're on the topic
of labels, one thing I've noticed that that has irked
a few listeners is when we sometimes refer two women
(14:01):
as females. And obviously that's not an incorrect way to
refer to us, but some people find it, I guess
too scientific or redundant. Um So, from a grammatical perspective,
when is it okay to to use female? And when
do we need to watch out for potential sexism when
(14:25):
it comes to using female as a descriptor or as
a noun, right, I mean I was wondering a minute ago.
I stumbled over my words and I would think I
was flubbing women women versus female. But you know what
I tell people is you should never use female when
you wouldn't use male in in the same situation. And
(14:46):
for some reason, people are more likely to say, uh,
you know, she was oh, oh, like there were there
were four females at the at the office. You know,
they never say there were four males at the office.
They would always say men. So if you're ever in doubt,
I just thought, you know, the easiest thing to do
(15:07):
is just ask yourself what I say male in this situation?
I mean typically you would say, you know, she's a woman,
he's a man. You know, those are nouns so um,
and a lot of people do find female as a
noun offensive. Um. And if you you know, going back
to science, it's used excuse me, going back to science,
(15:27):
it's used more. It is a clinical kind of thing.
You know, we might use that in a scientific paper.
You might say, uh, you know, four females we're seeing
on the tundra or something like that. But it has
this sense of talking about animals instead of people too,
which is I think part of the reason people find
it offensive. So it sounds like the potential sexism of
(15:51):
using female as an adjective lies in redundancy or unnecessary clarification.
Is that right, right? There's usually no need to point
it out. I mean, unless it's terribly unusual. You know,
when you draw attention to it, you're saying that it's
unusual for a man or a woman to be in
whatever position you're describing. So you better make sure it
(16:13):
really is unusual and not just you know, some stereotype. Now,
one last question that I have for you in regard
to gender and grammar is something that has come up
sometimes in feminist discourse, and that's the question of sexism,
latent sexism in English grammar, and specifically the fact that
(16:37):
the English language has he, she, and it, but we
don't really have a tidy neutered pronouns, so our knee
jerk is to use he or sometimes we have to
get clunky about it to avoid using he and pluralize
everything so that we can refer to they. So my
(16:57):
question is how to get around owned the the he,
she it issue and also avoid the clunkiness of they. Right,
it's a huge problem because English doesn't have a gender
neutral pronoun um. I call the baby it once because
I didn't know if it was a boy or a girl,
(17:18):
and the parents got really mad. So I do not
ever recommend using it um. But you know it used
to be again a generation or two ago, we use
he as a generic pronoun when we didn't know if
we were talking about a man or a woman. That
all the major style guides now say you shouldn't use
he in that way. It's considered sexist language now, but
(17:39):
it leaves us without a good option, and a lot
of people are you'll you'll definitely in speech here, people
use they in that situation you say, uh, you know,
tell the next collar they want a car, so you
know that next collar that's one person and they is
usually a plural pronoun, but they're but the person speaking
(18:01):
is using it because they don't know if the next
collar is going to be a man or a woman.
So in that situation, you know, that particular situation is
tricky because you can't make it plural. The the the
usual solution is to make the sentence plural. So instead
of saying, oh, um, a student should think his or
(18:23):
her teacher when he or she succeeds, you could just
say students should thank their teacher when they succeed. So
you just make the subject plural and it solves the
whole problem. But there are these rare instances where you
can't because you have the next caller and it's only
one person. It's always only going to be one person,
and in that instance you really should use he or she.
(18:43):
But if I if I were a betting woman, I
would say that in twenty or thirty years, they will
be acceptable in that use because I think even people
who object to it in writing today do it in
speech without even realizing it. So it's we just had
this gaping hole in our language it and it's begging
to be filled. Now I do have kind of a
(19:04):
random question that I was dying to ask you, and
this specifically relates to podcast listeners. And because if you
have written in really criticizing me for using the phrase
if you will, and I don't know what it is
(19:25):
about this specific phrase aside from the fact that I can,
I can understand that it is superfluous and really unnecessary
and kind of a filler, sort of like what I
just used. Kind of Uh. But from your perspective as
a grammar expert, why does if you will anger stuff?
(19:45):
Mom never told you listeners so much? Well, it's funny
because I have never heard this complaint before, and it's
it's rare for me to hear new complaints after six years,
so I was surprised when you told me. But I
guess it's not I don't commonly hear it, you know,
on TV or around town either. So you're saying, if
(20:07):
you say something like here's some chocolate, if you will,
is that sort of the way you use it. I
can't think of a verbatim way that I've dropped it
in the podcast, But let's say I'm talking about gender
differences and might say that women tend to be more
body conscious. If you will, it's probably because I mean,
(20:29):
it's a filler, so it's sort of unnecessary, but it
does have a meaning. It sort of changes the meaning
of your sentence because it means um not exactly or
um so to speak or something like that. So it's
sort of is saying I mean this but not exactly,
or I mean this, but I'm not sure. So it
(20:50):
might also bother people that you know you're saying something
and then immediately undercutting it. Um. But you're right, it's
just filler, and you know, if it's. One thing I've
learned over the last few years is that people get
upset about the strangest things, and they get really upset,
and a lot of it is about, you know, language peeves.
Like whenever I meet someone, they always one of the
(21:11):
first things they want to do is tell me their peeves.
So everyone has them, and they're different for a lot
of people. But there are things that just just great
on people, and I guess unfortunately you've you've hit on
one of those. So Grammar Girl, one question on my
mind and probably on listeners minds as well. Are there
any verbal slip ups that you still make after these
(21:35):
many years of podcasting and writing about grammar. Oh yes,
let's see. Um. Well, I say um and things like that.
My podcast is scripted because people expect me to get
the language right, and I don't speak perfectly off the cup,
so off the cuff, so you know, I say ums,
(21:58):
and you knows and likes in every a speech. So
I was wondering if people are surprised when they meet
me after listening to the podcast they're much more careful
in the show. And um sometimes I still have to
look up lay versus lie. I know, the past tense,
but late and lane and the sort of more advanced conjugations.
(22:19):
I still have to look those up sometimes. Well, Grammar Girl,
First of all, thank you so much for chatting with
me today. It's been a lot of fun. And before
we sign off, I just want to know if there
are any takeaway bits of grammar wisdom that you would
like to offer our podcast listeners out there. I guess
the thing I like to tell people is just admit
(22:41):
what you don't know. I mean, I have volumes, you know,
thirty grammar books. There's there are so many rules. Nobody
can know them all, so don't feel bad or embarrassed
about what you don't know. Just admit what you don't
know and take the few seconds it takes to look
it up and get it right. So, you know, don't
expect yourself to be perfect, but you know, try to
(23:03):
get it right. Look things up when you don't know.
So thank you so much to uh to grammar Girl
for taking the time to chat with us. And um
now she she's she's finally settled the case on woman
versus girl, and I will strive my hardest to not
(23:24):
use if you will and thereby undercut what I'm saying
before that lessons we can all learn grammar speech and beyond.
So if you have any burning grammar questions or any
any thoughts about my little chat with grammar Girl, send
us an email if you like mom stuff at how
(23:44):
stuff works dot com, and be sure to use proper
proper punction because we we won't even read them otherwise,
especially if you've you just thrown around tom column. You
know that hurts my feelings. And in the meantime, we
do have an email to share about our podcast on
breakup songs. Yeah, this is from Nori. She says that
(24:04):
this is yeah. In response to breakup songs, she had
some thoughts on the revelation that women and healthy relationships
listened to sad, down with love type songs. I am
a classically trained singer who also does jazz, bluegrass and
anything I feel like. Really, I've always loved singing sad
songs more than happy ones, and in classical music, there
is no shortage of suicidal depressed characters, either an opera
(24:28):
or art song. It is so much easier to connect
with someone who is completely tortured by love or rejection,
and the cathartic release is fantastic. The yearning of the music,
the drawing in of your audience to your sadness, can
be so raw and real. Well, it's way better than
tripping through the daisies. Of course, I did go through
a life shattering breakup when I was studying from my
(24:49):
bachelor's degree, and that led me to seek out some
of this fantastically sad and beautiful music. But now that
I'm happily married, my husband and I both still love
singing the blues. In fact, Adele's Someone Like You is
a regular our appearance on our playlists thanks, Thank you
to everyone for sharing your stories with us. Our email
address again is mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com.
(25:11):
You can also head over to the Facebook page, leave
us a likes, send us a comment, and you can
follow us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. You can
also follow grammar Girl if you like she is at
grammar Girl on Twitter as well. You can check out
our blog during the week, It's stuff Mom Never Told
You at how stuff works dot com. This podcast is
(25:33):
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(25:57):
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It's ready, are you
Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.
It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You?
From House top Works dot com. This podcast is brought
to you by Audible dot com, the Internet's leading provider
of audio books, with more than one hundred thousand downloadable
(00:20):
titles across all types of literature. For Stuff Mom Never
Told You listeners, Audible is offering a free audiobook to
give you a chance to try out their service. One
audio book to consider is The Feminine Mystique by Betty
fre Dan. This watershed work recently celebrated its thirtieth anniversary.
It changed views and attitudes and brought a fresh spotlight
(00:41):
on female equality. That's The Feminine Mystique by Betty fre Dann,
available from Audible. To try Audible free to day and
get a free audiobook of your choice, go to Audible
podcast dot com slash Mom Stuff. That's Audible podcast dot
com slash Mom Stuff. Hello and welcome to the podcast.
(01:04):
I'm Caroline and I'm Kristen. Today our podcast is an
interview with Grammar Girl herself, Mignon Bogerty. And this is
very exciting for me because ever since I was very little. Um,
I have been a total grammar nerd and it is
all my father's fault. He and he's like this because
his father was like this. I don't know what his
(01:26):
grandfather was like. I can't attest to that. But my
dad always corrected my speech, like every time I said anything.
And you would think that would be annoying, but I
was always like, oh, yeah, you're right. It is I
not me. You're right dad. And so yeah, that's how
I grew up to be such a grammar nerd. And
so this is very exciting. I am quite a grammar
nerd myself as well. And I have a special love
(01:47):
of dashes and semi colon's if they're used properly. People
people tend. People who throw to me colins around like
confetti up set me. I mean, it's a you know,
it is an intimidating punctuation mark. It is, but yeah,
you do kind of have to handle it with care.
We are totally grammar nerdy, Yeah we are right now.
But yeah, I was really excited to get to talk
(02:09):
to grammar Girl and really nerd out about grammar and
language and had some questions for her about how we
how gender intersects with grammar, and she also answered a
burning question that I have had about listeners particular distaste
(02:30):
for the phrase if you willer. Yeah, I I it's
something that the public, the public does not want it. Well,
there was a specific episode, um, I want to say,
it's why does the sizzle fizzle? And I think it
was after that a couple of listeners wrote in. They said, Kristin,
you are saying if you will all the time. It
is unnecessary verbal clutter. Get it out of there. And
(02:53):
I went back and listened and lo and behold, I
was if you will in left and right. I think
you should replace if you will with as you wish,
as you wish, as you wish, princess um and so
so yeah, it was fun to talk to the expert
about different different kinds of grammatical ticks and usage, and
also of course how Grammar Girl, who was a podcast goddess,
(03:17):
got her start and she now has UH it is
the flagship of the entire Quick and Dirty Tips franchise,
so it's pretty incredible. She's been podcasting for six years
and she started out as a as a technical writer.
She has a master's in science and that then did
(03:37):
some more technical writing. Interesting, you don't really hear about science. Sorry,
but you don't really hear about science people being awesome
a grammar Well that's kind of why, that's kind of
why grammar Girl even came into being. But I'll let
her tell you about that, Caroline. Interesting story. So, um,
with with no further uh, here is my interview with
(04:02):
Mignon Fogerty Grammar Girl. So Grammar Girl. I thought it
was very interesting that not only are you an expert
obviously in grammar, but you also have a master's in science.
(04:23):
So I was curious to know whether or not science
in language ever intersect for you these days. Well, there
are there are a few things that come up that
relate to science and grammar. The most obvious one is
passive voice, because you know, most people are taught that
passive voice is bad and they should never use it.
(04:43):
But in science writing it's sort of the standard. You know,
you'll say something in a scientific paper like, um, samples
were taken at five o'clock and ten o'clock and um.
You know, because you're always the scientists, you're always trying
to take yourself out of the writing to try and
maintain an air of objectivity, but even people in science
(05:05):
are trying. Some people are lobbying to get away from
so much use of the passive voice because it can
also be kind of hard to read. And then another
thing that comes to mind is the word data. So
data is one of those words that's changing how how
we use it in English? So um it comes from
Latin and dat um is the singular um, so typically
(05:31):
people say um, they treat data is plural the data
are interesting, but in common use it's becoming singular. So
in the newspaper or magazine it might be more common
to read the data is compelling, But scientists hold firmly
to that plural use of data, so it's not uncommon
(05:51):
at Obviously, data used as singular and plural, and it's
more often used as plural in science writing. So for
listeners to who might not be that familiar with Grammar
Girl and what you do, tell us how your podcast
and the the Grammar Girl franchise got off the ground,
(06:11):
right Well, I started a Grammar Girl gosh almost six
years ago now, and I was working as a technical
writer and a science writer, so I was working with
a lot of scientists editing their papers and even ghost
writing some papers, and um, I just noticed them making
the same mistakes over and over again, you know, and
I thought, if I have to replace that with a
(06:32):
witch one more time, I'm going to go crazy. So,
as almost a little passive aggressive thing, I started a
podcast as a hobby, just sort of to get those
rules out there. And I thought, nobody wants to have
a big, long grammar lesson, But if I can put
out a five minute quick tip every week about something
really useful, you know, like how do use a stomach
(06:54):
hole in or the difference between affect and effect, and
if I make it fun and light, and you know,
maybe people will listen, Maybe my clients will listen. And
it just became much more popular than I ever expected.
It was just sort of my hobby, and I guess
that's something from those days too that carries over because
a lot of those scientists were from other countries, and
(07:15):
I still hear from a lot of people who you know,
are learning English as a second language and they have
questions too, so they listen to the podcast too. So
in today's world of texting and tweeting and status updates,
where it seems like we're constantly abbreviating our language and
throwing out different kinds of slang and using text speak
(07:36):
and things like that. My big question is whether or
not grammar has lost its value. Well, in some ways,
I guess you could say it's lost it's I wouldn't
say it's lost its value, but there in a lot
of the instances in which we right now, like status updates,
there's a permissiveness. It's a very informal place to be writing,
(07:58):
and we're all writing so much more than we used
to because of these informal situations, and so, you know,
as always like a tweet or a Facebook status update,
it's a lot like you know, a note you used
to jot down on a post and leave on your
kitchen counter for your family, you know, And I don't
think anyone would hold you to the highest standards of
(08:19):
grammar for those jotted notes. And a lot of people
think of tweets and updates the same way. But then
they're also so much more public, and people do notice
when you use bad grammar or especially you know, people
just hate it when you get the wrong version of
it's or your um. You know, there have been whole
internet memes about making fun of you know, your with
(08:42):
an apostrophe versus not an apostrophe. So even though there
is that extra sense of informality or permissiveness, people still
notice and they will jump all over you if you
make mistakes. So what what, then, would you say is
the most important reason to pay attention to grammar today?
(09:03):
Because I feel like a lot of times, uh, grammar
is considered sort of stodgy and old school. Um So why,
especially for younger people too, why should we pay attention
to it? Well, you know, for me at least, I
often don't meet people in person that I'm working with. Um,
and so a lot of business correspondence or you know,
(09:25):
semi personal correspondence all happens in writing. And so you're
writing actually is how you're making your impression on people.
It's you know, I I say, it used to be
dressed for success, and now it's really right for success
because people are making all sorts of judgments about you
and your level of professionalism and your level of intelligence
(09:45):
by looking at the way you right. Um, I know,
when I'm hiring someone, I go when I look at
their Twitter feed and their Facebook updates. I mean it's
it's it's really part of your whole presence. Now now,
since we talk a lot of out gender differences on
step mom never told you, I have to ask you
(10:07):
whether or not you've noticed any gender differences in how
men and women use grammar? For instance, Uh, do women
pay more attention to grammar? Or do men tend to
pay more attention to grammar? Just just curious to know
whether or not you've seen any patterns like that. You know,
I've been thinking about this and I haven't noticed a
(10:29):
difference today between men and women. But what I do
hear a lot is from people who have older relatives
who are grammar sticklers, and they're almost always women. And
I think it's because a generation or two ago, you know,
women were the teachers. You know, it was much more
a profession that was limited to two women or female
(10:51):
so um, you know, I think that a few generations
ago there was more emphasis on writing and speaking properly,
and that came particularly from the women because they were teachers.
But today, you know, online and looking at the correspondence
between my my male and female friends, I haven't noticed
a big difference. And I'm not aware of any studies.
(11:13):
Doesn't mean they don't exist, but I'm not aware of
any studies that show that you know one or the
other are more mindful of their writing. Now, one reason
that I'm so glad that I got to talk to
you today is because you can help clear up from
an expert perspective. You can help clear up a question
that a male listener wrote in UM a couple of
(11:34):
weeks ago, asking whether or not it is appropriate to
refer to women as girls. And I feel like this
is especially appropriate because you are the grammar girl. So
what's what's your take on this? I know they do
have different connotations woman and girl, and uh, I specifically
(11:56):
called myself grammar girl because girl has, you know, a fun, friendly, light,
young feel to it, and grammar can be so intimidating.
You know, I wanted a name that was not scary,
and girls aren't scary. You know that you don't think
of girls as having a lot of power or being nastier, domineering.
(12:16):
So I think it all depends on the context too.
Like I would say, oh, I'm I'm going out for
drinks with my girls tonight, you know, my friends. But
if you know Hillary Clinton is waiting in the hallway
to come in and meet with some foreign diplomat you know,
to say, oh, there's a girl outside to see you
would be incredibly offensive and demeaning. So, you know, I
(12:37):
think I think you need to think about the context
in which you're using the word. And you know, woman
definitely carries more of a sense of importance and seriousness,
so it sort of depends on what you're going for.
Is always easier to call yourself a girl than to
have someone else call you a girl? Now, I thought
it was interesting I posed this question women of women
(12:59):
versus all on our stuff Mom Never Told You Facebook
page and received an overwhelming response, uh, most of the
time from women saying no, it's really not that appropriate
to to refer to, especially women you don't know, as girls.
But it seemed like the overwhelming consensus was that one
(13:20):
in doubt just referred to us as ladies. So what
are your thoughts on the youth then of lady, especially
in casual reference to women. There may be regional differences
because to me, ladies sounds very stuffy, and it sounds,
you know, like the women who launch our ladies. It
(13:41):
just or you know, a guy who's approaching women in
a bar might say, hey, ladies. Uh, so that can
have its weirdness too well. Since we're on the topic
of labels, one thing I've noticed that that has irked
a few listeners is when we sometimes refer two women
(14:01):
as females. And obviously that's not an incorrect way to
refer to us, but some people find it, I guess
too scientific or redundant. Um So, from a grammatical perspective,
when is it okay to to use female? And when
do we need to watch out for potential sexism when
(14:25):
it comes to using female as a descriptor or as
a noun, right, I mean I was wondering a minute ago.
I stumbled over my words and I would think I
was flubbing women women versus female. But you know what
I tell people is you should never use female when
you wouldn't use male in in the same situation. And
(14:46):
for some reason, people are more likely to say, uh,
you know, she was oh, oh, like there were there
were four females at the at the office. You know,
they never say there were four males at the office.
They would always say men. So if you're ever in doubt,
I just thought, you know, the easiest thing to do
(15:07):
is just ask yourself what I say male in this situation?
I mean typically you would say, you know, she's a woman,
he's a man. You know, those are nouns so um,
and a lot of people do find female as a
noun offensive. Um. And if you you know, going back
to science, it's used excuse me, going back to science,
(15:27):
it's used more. It is a clinical kind of thing.
You know, we might use that in a scientific paper.
You might say, uh, you know, four females we're seeing
on the tundra or something like that. But it has
this sense of talking about animals instead of people too,
which is I think part of the reason people find
it offensive. So it sounds like the potential sexism of
(15:51):
using female as an adjective lies in redundancy or unnecessary clarification.
Is that right, right? There's usually no need to point
it out. I mean, unless it's terribly unusual. You know,
when you draw attention to it, you're saying that it's
unusual for a man or a woman to be in
whatever position you're describing. So you better make sure it
(16:13):
really is unusual and not just you know, some stereotype. Now,
one last question that I have for you in regard
to gender and grammar is something that has come up
sometimes in feminist discourse, and that's the question of sexism,
latent sexism in English grammar, and specifically the fact that
(16:37):
the English language has he, she, and it, but we
don't really have a tidy neutered pronouns, so our knee
jerk is to use he or sometimes we have to
get clunky about it to avoid using he and pluralize
everything so that we can refer to they. So my
(16:57):
question is how to get around owned the the he,
she it issue and also avoid the clunkiness of they. Right,
it's a huge problem because English doesn't have a gender
neutral pronoun um. I call the baby it once because
I didn't know if it was a boy or a girl,
(17:18):
and the parents got really mad. So I do not
ever recommend using it um. But you know it used
to be again a generation or two ago, we use
he as a generic pronoun when we didn't know if
we were talking about a man or a woman. That
all the major style guides now say you shouldn't use
he in that way. It's considered sexist language now, but
(17:39):
it leaves us without a good option, and a lot
of people are you'll you'll definitely in speech here, people
use they in that situation you say, uh, you know,
tell the next collar they want a car, so you
know that next collar that's one person and they is
usually a plural pronoun, but they're but the person speaking
(18:01):
is using it because they don't know if the next
collar is going to be a man or a woman.
So in that situation, you know, that particular situation is
tricky because you can't make it plural. The the the
usual solution is to make the sentence plural. So instead
of saying, oh, um, a student should think his or
(18:23):
her teacher when he or she succeeds, you could just
say students should thank their teacher when they succeed. So
you just make the subject plural and it solves the
whole problem. But there are these rare instances where you
can't because you have the next caller and it's only
one person. It's always only going to be one person,
and in that instance you really should use he or she.
(18:43):
But if I if I were a betting woman, I
would say that in twenty or thirty years, they will
be acceptable in that use because I think even people
who object to it in writing today do it in
speech without even realizing it. So it's we just had
this gaping hole in our language it and it's begging
to be filled. Now I do have kind of a
(19:04):
random question that I was dying to ask you, and
this specifically relates to podcast listeners. And because if you
have written in really criticizing me for using the phrase
if you will, and I don't know what it is
(19:25):
about this specific phrase aside from the fact that I can,
I can understand that it is superfluous and really unnecessary
and kind of a filler, sort of like what I
just used. Kind of Uh. But from your perspective as
a grammar expert, why does if you will anger stuff?
(19:45):
Mom never told you listeners so much? Well, it's funny
because I have never heard this complaint before, and it's
it's rare for me to hear new complaints after six years,
so I was surprised when you told me. But I
guess it's not I don't commonly hear it, you know,
on TV or around town either. So you're saying, if
(20:07):
you say something like here's some chocolate, if you will,
is that sort of the way you use it. I
can't think of a verbatim way that I've dropped it
in the podcast, But let's say I'm talking about gender
differences and might say that women tend to be more
body conscious. If you will, it's probably because I mean,
(20:29):
it's a filler, so it's sort of unnecessary, but it
does have a meaning. It sort of changes the meaning
of your sentence because it means um not exactly or
um so to speak or something like that. So it's
sort of is saying I mean this but not exactly,
or I mean this, but I'm not sure. So it
(20:50):
might also bother people that you know you're saying something
and then immediately undercutting it. Um. But you're right, it's
just filler, and you know, if it's. One thing I've
learned over the last few years is that people get
upset about the strangest things, and they get really upset,
and a lot of it is about, you know, language peeves.
Like whenever I meet someone, they always one of the
(21:11):
first things they want to do is tell me their peeves.
So everyone has them, and they're different for a lot
of people. But there are things that just just great
on people, and I guess unfortunately you've you've hit on
one of those. So Grammar Girl, one question on my
mind and probably on listeners minds as well. Are there
any verbal slip ups that you still make after these
(21:35):
many years of podcasting and writing about grammar. Oh yes,
let's see. Um. Well, I say um and things like that.
My podcast is scripted because people expect me to get
the language right, and I don't speak perfectly off the cup,
so off the cuff, so you know, I say ums,
(21:58):
and you knows and likes in every a speech. So
I was wondering if people are surprised when they meet
me after listening to the podcast they're much more careful
in the show. And um sometimes I still have to
look up lay versus lie. I know, the past tense,
but late and lane and the sort of more advanced conjugations.
(22:19):
I still have to look those up sometimes. Well, Grammar Girl,
First of all, thank you so much for chatting with
me today. It's been a lot of fun. And before
we sign off, I just want to know if there
are any takeaway bits of grammar wisdom that you would
like to offer our podcast listeners out there. I guess
the thing I like to tell people is just admit
(22:41):
what you don't know. I mean, I have volumes, you know,
thirty grammar books. There's there are so many rules. Nobody
can know them all, so don't feel bad or embarrassed
about what you don't know. Just admit what you don't
know and take the few seconds it takes to look
it up and get it right. So, you know, don't
expect yourself to be perfect, but you know, try to
(23:03):
get it right. Look things up when you don't know.
So thank you so much to uh to grammar Girl
for taking the time to chat with us. And um
now she she's she's finally settled the case on woman
versus girl, and I will strive my hardest to not
(23:24):
use if you will and thereby undercut what I'm saying
before that lessons we can all learn grammar speech and beyond.
So if you have any burning grammar questions or any
any thoughts about my little chat with grammar Girl, send
us an email if you like mom stuff at how
(23:44):
stuff works dot com, and be sure to use proper
proper punction because we we won't even read them otherwise,
especially if you've you just thrown around tom column. You
know that hurts my feelings. And in the meantime, we
do have an email to share about our podcast on
breakup songs. Yeah, this is from Nori. She says that
(24:04):
this is yeah. In response to breakup songs, she had
some thoughts on the revelation that women and healthy relationships
listened to sad, down with love type songs. I am
a classically trained singer who also does jazz, bluegrass and
anything I feel like. Really, I've always loved singing sad
songs more than happy ones, and in classical music, there
is no shortage of suicidal depressed characters, either an opera
(24:28):
or art song. It is so much easier to connect
with someone who is completely tortured by love or rejection,
and the cathartic release is fantastic. The yearning of the music,
the drawing in of your audience to your sadness, can
be so raw and real. Well, it's way better than
tripping through the daisies. Of course, I did go through
a life shattering breakup when I was studying from my
(24:49):
bachelor's degree, and that led me to seek out some
of this fantastically sad and beautiful music. But now that
I'm happily married, my husband and I both still love
singing the blues. In fact, Adele's Someone Like You is
a regular our appearance on our playlists thanks, Thank you
to everyone for sharing your stories with us. Our email
address again is mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com.
(25:11):
You can also head over to the Facebook page, leave
us a likes, send us a comment, and you can
follow us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. You can
also follow grammar Girl if you like she is at
grammar Girl on Twitter as well. You can check out
our blog during the week, It's stuff Mom Never Told
You at how stuff works dot com. This podcast is
(25:33):
brought to you by Audible dot com, the Internet's leading
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(25:57):
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