Bisexuality: Part 2

In the second part of our bisexuality episode, our expert guests return with advice and resources for bisexual folks, and share some personal experience and even a bi-ku (bisexual haiku) along the way.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, this is Danny cancel At and welcome to stuff.
I've never told your production of I Hire Radios how
stuff works. Today we are bringing to you are part
two for our episode on bisexuality and for the trigger

(00:28):
warning of the episode, UM, sexual assault, soicidality, mental health
issues and domestic violence. Also, we strongly encourage you to
listen to part one before listening to this one because
Part one gives a lot of baseline definitions and introduction
to our interviewees. Yes, they they introduced themselves far better

(00:48):
and in that episode, UM yeah, just a lot of
terms will be using. We're explained in that episode. UM.
And we also went into the negative impact of birature
and by negativity and that and before we get into um,
all of our our guests interviews, we did want to
touch on the media for a second. When it comes

(01:10):
to bisexuality. There are several famous examples of celebrities, um
who are bisexual, Angelina Jolie and a Paquin, Kara de
Levine and Cumming, Abby Jacobson, Aus Walker and Kinda Billy
Joe Arst, Billy Joe Arstrong, My my boy, my Homeboy
had a huge cracks on him for years Oh my gosh,

(01:31):
Evan Rachel Wood, Drew Barrymore, Gina Rodriguez, Lady Gaga Rex
and Gay, Tessa Thompson, lots more. There are some famous
fictional examples, and right now the big one is Rosa
Diaz on Brooklyn nine nine, Kellie Torres on Gray's Anatomy.
There's Cat on Madame Secretary, Petro Solano on Jane the Virgin,

(01:53):
David Rose on Ship's Creek, Grace Troy on Black Lightning,
Nova Board a Lawn on Queen Sugar, Daryl White Feather
on Crazy Ex Girlfriend who announced his bisexuality VI a
Song or Yes, of course, Um, Sarah Lance and Constantine
on Legends of Tomorrow, Nomi and Dave On on Grown Ish.
I will say I haven't seen all of these. I

(02:15):
cannot say I was gonna say I think I've seen
like two or three of all of these. Yes, I
cannot say they're good representations. UM. And I know that
Constantine in particular, I can't say for sure if it's
ever been like said definitively. UM, But those are examples
I found people gave online. UM. One thing worth noting

(02:37):
is there's far less men than women. Um. You could
just help out the list. Yes, yes, and that is
something that um was commented on a lot when I
was looking into this. Looking into news outlets, the mainstream
ones rarely right about bisexuality. For instance, in seen, the
New York Times tweeted bisexual seven times and gay over

(02:58):
one hundred. The Wall Street journe All has tweeted it
twice and does not appear to have any stories with
by our bisexual in the headline. And I got to
thinking about some tropes, some stereotypes I've seen in our media,
because for a long time bisexuality has kind of been
a punchline in our entertainment. Um Carrie Bradshaw's Sex in
the City line that it's just a layover on the

(03:20):
way to gaytown, for instance, are Liz Lemon on Dirty
Rock when she quips that it was just something invented
in the nineties to sell hair products, or the l
words assessment that it is quote just gross um or
bisexual character as crazy in quotes are evil like Frank
Underwood on House of Cards, Lady Goga's character Elizabeth on

(03:41):
American Horror Story. Big examples of that, and this lack
of good representation has consequences. It shapes how we see
bisexual people and how bisexual people see themselves. We spoke
to our panel of experts, Dr Tangela Roberts, Dr Tanya Israel,
Diane Adams, and Haran green Smith, all of whom were
rad are rad and activists in the bisexual community. Here's

(04:05):
Tantel and Tanya. I think that, um, maybe like the
media just can't get it right, because there's there's a
lot of like mystery what is the bisexual and a
lot of just what people talk about. Is this media
representation of you know, either the sixth woman who the

(04:29):
unicorn and she gets invited to like have a threesome
with a couple, or no, that's about it. Yeah, yeah,
that's what I was going to say, the evil bisexual, right, Yeah, yeah,
the there's always the evil bisexual who's like, you know,
running ramped and quare communities and like breaking lesbians hearts.

(04:50):
Or but then at the same time, you have like
the media image of like the lesbian who wants to
like quote unquote terms straight women. I'm like, well, it
couldn't be that those straight women are actually but I'm
gonna talk a little bit about internalized stigma because what
happens for people is that there's all these negative messages

(05:11):
out there about uh, sexual orientation. I mean there's negative
messages out there about all kinds of things. So you know,
if if you're not a sexual minority person, you can
think about things that you've heard, like let's say you're
UM an ethnic minority person, you can think of things
that you've heard about your ethnic groups. UM. If you're

(05:32):
a person with a disability, you can think about like
what did you hear about people with disabilities? And And
the problem with all of those messages being out there
in the world is if they get transmitted through so
many different ways, through media representations and through what you
learn in school, and what you hear from your faith
leaders and what your parents tell you or what your

(05:53):
parents are silent about and avoid telling you, and what
your peers say or what you're fear ease you about
or bully other people about. Like, these messages get communicated
in so many different ways, And the problem is then
we can start to believe those things about ourselves. Like
even if on some level we're like, well, I don't

(06:15):
think that's true, there may be some level, either conscious
or a conscious that we start to believe those things.
So when we internalize those negative messages from outside, it
can really eat away at our mental health UM. And
we can see that, like we know that UM internalized
stigma for bisexual people is associated with UM negative mental

(06:40):
health outcomes, and so we can see that the the
more people believe those things, those negative things about the
group that they belong to UM, then then they're going
to UM you know, have more struggles with their mental health.

(07:00):
The good news is, actually this is really exciting. I
have to tell you this that my research team created
this online intervention. So these online activities that interactive activities
thinks about half an hour to do them, and they
can actually decrease internalized stigma. So or if you you know,
if you compare people who do these activities people who

(07:22):
get other kinds of activities, like they've got lower internalized
stigma in half an hour. And I'm like, wow, this
is super exciting because UM, you know, it's it's a
small difference that it makes, but it's encouraging to think
that there are things that we can do that can
actually change that for people UM UH. And we can

(07:44):
help people like to support their resilience in the face
of all of these negative messages that they get exposed to.
So I'm really excited about that. So we have some
more for you listeners, but first we have a quick
break from a word from our sponsor, and we're back,

(08:16):
Thank you, sponsor. One thing what we are curious about
was the personal experiences of our interviewees. Then they were
gracious enough to oblige. I learned amazing term and grad
school about research one of my grad stool colleagues, so
that at some point in in certain fields, probably not

(08:36):
so much just like chemistry and physics, because there's like
so much amazing things that you can do, but more
so with like the social sciences, you tend to do
a lot of research. You're like, I'm doing research all
myself because this is experience that I have and I
want to see other people have it. UM and that's
sort of with my introduction into UM doing by research
and it expanded a little bit. But some of my experiences,

(09:01):
oh my god, oh my god. I dated queer women
who have said that they were afraid I was going
to leave them for as this man. UM usually like
to me saying that it really doesn't better who I
leave you for, because it cost you. We asked about

(09:22):
their coming out stories. Oh yeah, it's it's I feel
like it's so stereotypical. It was when I was in
collegege I like, I almost like just hate saying it
because like everyone's like, oh you everyone explores the sexual
orientation in college. Sure, and I wanted to do something different.
But no. It was when I was in college. I

(09:44):
was at a um at a private Catholic school with
like single single sex storms, and I fell in love
with my roommate at the time, and that sort of
put me in like a just until tales. Then I
was like, wait, what is this? Like I like her,

(10:04):
but I like her more than a friend. I like
her like I want to always be around her. I
like her like I have like boyfriends in the past. Uh,
this was interesting, And I remember I think, like my
confusion then wasn't wasn't really like, oh I'm confused about
this orientation. It was like, oh, but wait, I don't

(10:26):
think I don't I don't think leslian fits for me.
I don't think lesbian is ever fit for me. And
I actually remember like running out of the dorm room
into like the quad area and I was like, yeah, no,
that that that guy that I saw that works in
the library, he's still hot. Got it? Maybe I'm By
And that's sort of what I'm just gonna have to

(10:46):
stick with because yeah, I just sort of like what
I like and it comes in different packages and Okay, sure,
that's fine. Um. So it wasn't really like like that tremental,
I guess for me. But I mean I did have
some pretty negative experiences with some family members, and that
it's always a process coming up the family, like they

(11:08):
have to sort of go through their shock and grief
and um hopefully eventually acceptance. But that's always that process.
But I've been lucky enough to um have really really
great friends honestly, Like I have the best group of
people that I can call like my assumed family in
the world. Um. And at that time, I was in college,

(11:30):
and so I was lucky enough to sort of use
my growing research interests as a way to explore more
about sexual orientation. So it's like, Okay, I think I'm by,
let me write, let me like do some research about
this and see if I can like do a presentation
on bisexuality and what if my classes can I get

(11:52):
away with that? Sure? Why not? It's college. Well, the
first thing I would say is, I, you know, I
don't think I was bisexual when I was growing up,
like when I was in high school and college. Like,
I don't think that I came out when I was
twenty five. I think I actually like became bisexual in

(12:14):
a way. Um, and and so I just want to
sort of acknowledge that there can be fluidity in that also.
But I'm also going to say this super clearly, the
fact that people's sexual orientation can seen doesn't mean you
can change it, you know, doesn't mean that you can
like have a treatment or something that's going to change
your sexual orientation. So there's a difference between like understanding

(12:36):
fluidity and and trying to change sexual orientation. I know
y'all know that, but I'm just bad, very yeah so
so so So the first thing that changed was just
sort of coming into my understanding of myself as bisexual,
and um, for me, it started out a more cognitive process.

(12:58):
I think that it does for other people. Like I
was like, Okay, I don't think I'm a I don't
think I'm a zero on the Kinsey scale. I'm probably
more like a one or two. So so then does
it make sense for me to identify as heterosexual. And
then I went, okay, what do identify as? So tells
me a lot to kind of get to bisexual. But
I'll tell you the the thing that where where I

(13:21):
really was like, oh, yes, I'm bisexual was and this
is this is a story about like the importance of
visibility and community. Because I went to this conference. It
was the Association for Women in Psychology conference and it's
just feminist psychology conference and there's a caucus on bisexuality
and sexual diversity there. So I was like, oh, I'm

(13:42):
gonna go to that. Yeah, but like that's the moment
where I felt like, Okay, I can fully embrace this identity.
And so so I'm just gonna say that that's something
important is for people to be exposed to people who
are like them, who are bisexual, because I'm not like
all bisexual people. There's an awful lot of bisexual people

(14:03):
out there and so might not be a fit, but
finding those those specific groups, so that was really exciting
that I was like, yeah, And then I I wrote
some I did a presentation and I wrote some personal
narrative stuff about being biracial and bisexual and so you know,
I kind of put that out there, um, but then
it was so it was a stalient part of my identity,

(14:25):
but it wasn't necessarily like the only thing going on.
I felt like I was, you know, part of a
broader LGBTQ community. UM. And I would always say, you know,
people would be like, oh, yeah, it's good to have
all these lesbians together, and I would say, a bisexuals.
You know, so I was always like speaking up about that,
but it wasn't it was really um when I did

(14:47):
the Ted talk and then you know, all of the
stuff that's come after that that it's become like such
a salient part of my identity and so you know,
so I would say that the thing that's changed most
is probably le the salience of it, um for my life.
I will also say, because I was teaching this class
on bisexuality, um, I as I dressed like the bisexual

(15:10):
flag for each class. Here's Diana story. I had some
struggles with with my coming out journey, particularly because I
think that people perceive by women, particularly feminine, by women
like me um as you know, flooty or as sexually

(15:31):
promiscuous or is it interested in having freedoms? And so
then people project that story onto you, and that's really,
you know, too much information, too personal for being openly by,
for instance, in the workplace or with your family, if
that's the way people are perceiving what by means. And
so I really dealt with that, um. Even at my

(15:52):
first job as a lawyer, they circulated our resumes, which
included my bisexuality activism as a law to it, and
our pictures and the time, I was very blonde and
feminine looking, and they decided, on the basis of the
fact that I was basically a pretty feminine girl and
that I was bisexual, that I shouldn't have any male

(16:13):
supervisors because I was probably a risk for getting involved
with one of my male supervisors because bisexual women, you know,
must be sexually available, which is absolutely appalling. And this
was a law firm in New York City, um, fifteen
years ago. This was not so long ago, and that
is still happening, that kind of experience, UM, of being

(16:35):
over sexualized and stereotyped in that way. So I feel
like you deal with a lot of that from the
straight world and then in the lgbt Q world. At
the same time, I was entering queer spaces and was
perceived as not clear enough. And at the time the
movie Legally Blonde had come out, and um, some of
the lesbians and the lgbt Q group were teasing me

(16:58):
and would like leave me pink luffy things and call
me legally blonde because um, they also stereotyped me because
I was feminine and I didn't wasn't queer enough for them, um,
And so I got a lot of hostility from both sides,
and even being openly bisexual, um, as a student activist

(17:19):
with my law school professors and with my deans, I
was then wondering, given those experiences, oh God, is my
dean thinking about me having a freesome? Because that's what
people think of when they think of bisexual. And so
I'm very deeply involved in the l g b t
q I community. But then I'm meeting colleagues who are
often in the same sex relationships, and I have a husband,
and so I still have to come out and I
still see raised eyebrows and surprise looks that I'm very

(17:44):
serious about this kind of activism and this kind of community,
and yet I'm in a different sex partnership. So I'm
still regularly having to come out and still dealing with
that and having to sometimes wonder whether people are going
to think of me differently or think of me as
less of a part of the community. I have entered
into a marriage with a bisexual man, and we went

(18:04):
on vacation to Morocco and to Turkey, UH in the
past year, and those are places where if I had
happened to end up with a same sex UM spouse,
it would not be safe for me to go to
the places that I went to, and that is not
fair and I have mixed feelings about that and part
of the way that I use those privileges because I

(18:27):
really do feel like now I have privileges, I'm not
being actively stigmatized, that my marriage is not at risk,
my parenting status is not at risk, I'm not at
risk of violence. For traveling, I can go undercover and
pass as just a white, different sex couple UM. I
feel an extra responsibility to the LGBTQ community, and it's
actually made me go deeper into my activism because I

(18:48):
feel like I have the privilege to not have this
be deeply traumatic on a day to day basis in
terms of my own parenting status, and so for example,
I work really actively to make sure that UM same
sex couples and other LGBTQ families can maintain their parenting
status because right now within the US and in Europe,
it's still very common the same sex couples aren't able

(19:11):
to get their parenting status. It is still completely legitimate
and legal in much of the United States and Europe
to discriminate in terms of foster care and adoption, to
not evil, to not be able to adopt a child
through many adoption agencies UM, and to not feel safe
traveling in many places, and to not be able to
get your parenting status recognized, which can really have devastating

(19:31):
consequences if non biological parents are then excluded from hospital
rooms when their kids are injured in the foreign countries,
for example, because they're not recognized as a parent UM.
So I feel really, I feel really committed UM to
being there as an LGBTQ activist and feel UM the
the deep inspiration to claim this as part of my

(19:52):
identity because it's an important part of myself. Even though
I happened to marry a man UM and to them
use at um situation of greater relative comfort, which isn't
fair to go back and support the rest of my
LGBTQ community. And here's van. I'll tell um one personal

(20:13):
story about facing discrimination from the my my supportive communities. UM.
About uh, maybe seventy seven years ago, I was working
in a large organizational, large LGBT organization, and I marched
in Pride with my partner, who was a person of
a different gender than me, long term partner. We've been

(20:35):
together now for twelve years, and he and I were
super excited to march and Pride. There was like a
bedazzling shirt party beforehand, and we like cut our shirts
up and bedazzled them with like the Beagle's metal like
weird triangle German things. Um. We had like face paint
on and like bandana's and we were carrying one end

(20:57):
of like the balloon arch, the rainbow balloon are I'm like,
we had fans were like handing up stickers, and he
and I were holding hands the whole time and like
smooching because everyone is holding hands and smooching, And we
had a really fabulous time. And then we returned the
balloon arch back to the main office of the organization

(21:17):
and we were writing down from the offices to the
bottom of the building, me, my partner, and then another
of my coworkers, male Gates, who um I had worked
with my entire internship there all summer and um so
he knew me quite well and he had been there

(21:38):
the entire time at the parade, and he said, hey, heron, um,
I have someone I've loved to hook you up with.
Can I give you her number? And I said, oh,
thank you so much. You know, uh, my partner and
I are actually in an ugomist thank you and for
my monogamist right now. And he said, um, oh, who's

(21:59):
your part nerve? And I looked down at mine and
my partner's hands be helped together. And then I look
up at my partner and I point to him and
I'm like this person that partners like hi, And the

(22:28):
man turned around in the elevator and faced the wall.
I think one of the reasons I tell that stories
because it is a really good illustration of bias in
kind of a funny way. Um. But there's another story
that I don't actually tell very frequently. UM, that really

(22:55):
impacted my ability to do my job and to feel safe.
It wasn't another organization and I was in the car
was my immediate supervisor, and we were in the car
for a long journey a couple of hours, and halfway
through she turned to me out of the blue and

(23:17):
she said, Karen, have you ever been in a long
term relationship with a woman? And I felt cold all
over and I knew that there was no right answer

(23:38):
to this question. There were only wrong answers to this question. Yeah,
as I said yes, she would make me define long term.
If I said no, she would essentially use that as

(24:04):
justification to herself. Two dismissed my queerness to dismiss me
being part of her community. If I didn't say anything,
I would be not answering my boss direct question to me.

(24:30):
And it was clear that she thought this was an
appropriate question to ask an employee. You know, we're both attorneys.
We were headed to a hearing, and this is what

(24:52):
started the day for me, demanding that I justify my
identifications as a queer person. What was your response and
what was her response? Does it matter to you what
my response was? Actually? I think the reason I ask

(25:12):
is because for so many people, what do you do
in those situations? Like I cannot imagine being pigeonholed into
that situation and for a woman or I'm sorry, a
person like you who survived and continue to tell that
story as something that has impacted you and will probably
impact you obviously does for a long if not forever.

(25:37):
I think that question came because like what did you do?
What can you do? What did you do? I think
that's my thought and just wondering like the audacity. Yeah, yeah,
I think I want to push a little bit and
not tell you because I I'm going to use this

(25:58):
as like a little opportunity to, like, you know, let
maybe you and some listeners be like a little uncomfortable
with not knowing, because it doesn't matter. That's the truth
about that question is the answer isn't relevant. You know,
if someone had never had any relationship with anyone and

(26:22):
identified as straight, we're gay, no one would ever question
their sexual orientation. But for some reason, bi sexuality validity
is predicated upon someone sexual contact with people and the
quantity and the quality and the duration, and for some reason,

(26:46):
our sexual orientation is the only sexual orientation subjected to
that level of scrutiny and analysis. Mhm mm hmm. Sorry,
I'm taking it all in. M There's a lot of

(27:07):
emotions like a tears in my eyes right now, I'm
not gonna lie. So obviously we got a little emotional
and we wanted to know how to be better allies. Obviously,
as someone who misunderstood and did not quite see the
depth of why this is so dangerous, misrepresenting bisexual the
terms why it was so dangerous, I definitely had to ask,

(27:28):
how do I become a better ally? How do I
make sure that this does not happen in my circle
or those around me, or my influencing um And as
you can hear, there's a moment of intensity with heron
and it was really uncomfortable. But as uncomfortable as it was,
her point was amazing, the fact that this is how
she felt, this is how uncomfortable she was as well.

(27:50):
And it was like, wow, you know what, I really
appreciate this moment, even though again I was super uncomfortable.
We all kind of stopped and I looked around. I
was like, what's happening? But it was so necessary and
it was so important that she was able to say that, well,
like I said, funding is I mean, funding is definitely
UM at the source of a lot of uh social issues, right. UM,

(28:15):
So if you're looking at UM and I don't have
I don't have the numbers off hand UM, but if
there's a few articles that have showed like the amounts
of UM federal, both federal and both community funds UM
to LGBT organizations, and if you're breaking them down by
identity bisexual people, although statistically they they're most people who

(28:42):
identify as quote of LGBT identified by LGB Looking at
sexual orientation identifies bisexuals, there's more people who identify it's
bisexual than there are people who identify as lead's beinging gay.
But we have the numbers in terms of like you know,
we got like a whole bipote over here, but we're
not getting the fund for that. So even though there

(29:03):
is a ton of people who identify as bisexual, that
isn't represented in the funding for UM by programming for
bisexual awareness, for health disparities research, for any other types
of research. So it's it's in an interesting place where
you have the bodies, but you don't have the money

(29:25):
to support those bodies. Recently, actually I saw an article
going around social media that said the a large number
of black women identify as bisexual, and I was like,
du like seriously, we're just not talking about this. UM.
And so again, we have the numbers, we know that
there's a ton of black women who identifies bisexual, but

(29:45):
I haven't seen any type of resources or UM research
or sort of health advocacy or any sort of social
attitude specifically for black bi women. We know the numbers
are there, but why aren't we sort of supporting that
when we have we have the data that shows we

(30:05):
have the people right everything in research, It's like, you know,
if you have if you have the people, then you
know you can do the studies, and you can you
can you should be able to get the funding, and
it's we're not. We're not getting that. We have a
lot of people, but we don't have money to support
those people. And that support to just look at look
like funding UM, I mean bisexual organizations like UM, buy

(30:30):
net USA, like the New York Area Bisexual Network like
rc UM offering more funding so they can do more
community work. UM having more research funding, I mean a
by person who research and bisexuals. I would I would
love to be able to apply for like a by
specific like federal grant, but that'd be amazing UM. And

(30:53):
that's not and it's not just in like, oh, I
want that for me, because I'm not. It's not for me.
I'm not doing you know, research like on me and
Milling and on other people. And it's so I can
it's so people who can able to distiminate this research
out so we can reach more people and have like
a bigger impact. UM. So I think it really it
all blows down to the money at the end of

(31:14):
the day. I think that, UM, it's really powerful to
do things like this UM and actually really listen. So
I really appreciate everybody who's listening and being open to
hearing from people from that community. And I'm appreciative that
you are bringing people on who are from the bio
community to really hear about our experiences. And I think

(31:35):
that it's really useful throughout the LGBTQ community to be
listening to the experiences and lived experiences of people who
are themselves transgender, who are intersex, who are a sexual,
who are lesbian, who are gay or transgender, and being
able to UM continue to keep an open mind and
continue listening. I'm still listening. I've been listening for twenty

(31:56):
years to my colleagues and my community and we're all
still learning, so I think being in a learning space
is really helpful. I also think that as I feel
the personal emotional space to take on some of these
issues because they're not directing my own parenting status, for example,
in a traumatic way, I think that's there's a really

(32:17):
powerful space for allies when, for example, there have been
absolutely horrific um horrific measures by the current Trump administration. UM,
it's really useful when your lgbt Q friends are just
feeling emotionally exhausted to be the one who's spreading the
word online, who's talking to people about fundraisers, about issues,

(32:41):
about calling your senators, having the energy to do that
in moments when people in the LGBT community themselves might
just feel really defeated. So I think that there's a
lot of really powerful opportunities to be an ally. UM.
I am a very committed ally, for example, to people
in the transgender community, and I feel a lot of
alliance between the bisexual and transgender community. As often the

(33:03):
hidden or more forgotten parts of the l g b
t Q I a continuum, and so I'm often interested
in amplifying voices of transgender people as all as of
intersex and a sexual people, UM, along with bisexual people,
to sort of remind people that the only the only
image out there isn't doesn't need to just be of
lesbian and gay people who are in same sex marriages.

(33:24):
And I think that that's particularly important right now when
the transgender, when tending gender Americans are under so much attack,
and when there's been advisories from Trump's Health and Human
Services that uh, people who are medical workers could not
even maybe don't even treat transgender people because of a
religious exemption, UM, and that homeless shelters would be able

(33:48):
to turn away transgender people. I think that, um, those
measures may not happen, UM, but still they are a
real hospile message to the very human dignity of people
in the transgender community. And people are feeling really beaten down,
and so I'm often picking up the mantle and working
on those issues. And my nonprofit Wasn't kind of Low
Center has a Transgender Umbrella project, which is providing pro

(34:11):
bono services in New York and New Jersey to transgender
low income people to do a full We're calling it
an umbrella to protect from whatever storms come of legal
protection as well as name change package, because I think
that's really important to be UM bisexual allies for the
trans community. And I think that everybody can be an
ally to people who are by by remembering in those
moments to not erase bisexuals from the conversation. Um, you know,

(34:36):
when you're watching the Queen documentary, to say, wait a minute,
don't describe him as a gay man. He actually had
a long term female partner. UM sounds like by to me,
you know, just being being willing to be part of
that conversation of not erasing bisexual people from our community history,
if I think, also really helpful. So one of the
things that I had asked about in being an ally

(34:57):
was something specifically with my job. I' do work with teenagers.
I do work with at risk kids UM, and I
work with them in the Southern State, and for that
there's not a lot of training or understanding, and we
do talk about the LGBTQ, but just like a majority
of the society, we can't. We concentrate on the l

(35:18):
g and the T that's about it. And I wanted
to know how do we service these youths who do
identify as bisexual or who are trying to figure out
if they're bisexual, and here she isn't speaking about it.
I've written a bunch about how we can support I
use um, how we can support by adults. Um. The

(35:41):
easiest way is, honestly, just to have conversations like these,
just talk about bisexuality, you know, normalize it among your
non by communities so people are like, oh yeah, by
totally cool. Um. The second way is to integrate examples
of buy and Pan folks into your all of your literature.

(36:04):
And that means posters on the walls, that means choirs,
That means board report, that means UM research, that means
outreach to youth, and outreach to donors and outreach to
the community. UM. Something simple as you know, Uh, Bianca,
a black by trans woman, was able to get a

(36:29):
placement at this organization thanks to our work. Yea um.
And you know, if you want to go a little
bit deeper, then you know, have a support group for
by and Pan youth, you know, once a month, and
I promise you nobody will come for two months. And

(36:51):
I think that the point at which a lot of
folks say all that means there's no buy and trans people,
Buy and Pan people here and that's the problem. Nobody. Well,
I should back up a little bit. By and trans
folks have buy and Pan folks have been burned so
frequently by organizations who try and kind of do a

(37:13):
nominal support for buy and Pan communities that we're really
really suspicious. But if an organization has a regular buy
and Pan support group night and they keep at it,
even if there's no one there for six months, people
will come out. But you need to keep at it,
I promise you. All the data shows that buy and

(37:35):
Pan youth are everywhere, and we are the majority of
youth being served in every youth services organization that serves LGBT.
Use I am wrote a piece called Bisexuality Margins to
Center um to to think about ways that within the
field of psychology and in society, we we thought about

(37:59):
bisexuality as being on the margins and and so we
haven't been paying attention to it, so we don't see
it clearly, and so we're not actually like understanding who
bisexual people are in responding to their need. So what
happens if we bring bisexuality into the center and use
it as a lens to understand things you can't understand
bisexuality without understanding health severity. You can't understand bi sexuality

(38:23):
without understanding history. You can't understand bisexuality without understanding media
representations and mental health and uh and mental health services
and like all these different things attitudes. So I was
really teaching about a lot of different topics to the
lens of bisexuality because then you know, we understand all
of these things better. So that's the thing. If we

(38:44):
center bisexuality, it helps us understand everything. We can then understand, uh,
you know, people who are in relationships with people of
the same gender, people who are in relationships with people
of another gender, we can understand, and gender more complexly also, um,
we can understand it multidimensionally. It helps us to complexify attraction.

(39:09):
I sort of thought I made up as works to plexify,
but apparently it's it's an actual word. Love It so
that the thing about attraction is that we might have
attractions that are slightly different to some people, Like we
might fall in love with some types of people and

(39:30):
you know, wants to have sex with other types of people,
And in bisexuality, we we have a better understanding of that.
But that's something that's true of everybody. You know, everybody's
dots are sort of differences that they that they feel
about attraction. Um, And so so we can see attractions
through a different we can also some people, Um, some

(39:54):
of the negativity around bisexuality is because people see bisexual
people as being just really like hyper sexual, and so
there's a lot of negativity about sexuality that's related to
negativity about bisexuality. So I'm like, maybe centering bisexuality allows
us to talent all that negativity around sexuality, to talent erotophobia,

(40:15):
you know, to say, Okay, well, you know, maybe bisexual
people like are affectual, but maybe so are heterosexual people
and lovely to gay people and and maybe that's okay, um,
and and to embrace our sexuality. Same thing with monogamy.
You know, we spend a lot of time trying to
combat this stereotype that bisexual people can't be monogamous, because

(40:37):
it turns out that bisexual people, as a fact, are
able to be monogamous. So so we know that, and
we know that that bisexual people can't evenogous. However, bisexual
people might be less likely to want to be monogamous, um,
and might be less likely to be monogamous than other
people are. Now that doesn't mean that they cheat. You know,

(40:58):
we're talking about like consensual non monogamy here. So maybe bisexuality,
if we center that, we can be like, Okay, how
does that help us to understand different kinds of arrangements
of relationships? And maybe that helps us to accept nonmonogamy,
you know, for people who want that, And maybe it

(41:19):
helps us think about how to negotiate relationships so that
it is consensual nonmonogamy and so that you know, so
that everybody's clear um. And and then I just think,
you know, the potential to revolutionized gender is is one
of the most exciting things about bisexuality because, like, like
I said, I don't think that it reinforces the idea

(41:42):
of binary gender. In fact, I think ultimately bisexuality challenges
the idea that gender is narrow and that gender is
the most important characteristic for us to organize the way
we think about people. So I think if we do that,
you know, if we start to do that, then we
can all that say, wow, how do we center transgender

(42:03):
people and gender non binary people, How do we center
other groups that are really vulnerable in our society? How
do we center black lives, how do we center people
with disabilities? How do we center people who are Muslim
and people of other um non dominant religions. And so
I think it just gives us a lot of opportunity

(42:25):
to start um expanding our thinking about bisexuality, but also
about everybody who's on the margins, and and how we
can actually transform and improve our society by bringing all
those vulnerable people into the center. We have some advice

(42:47):
and resources for you listeners, but first we have a
quick break for word from our sponsors. We're back, Thank
you sponsor, and we're back with some advice. Advice is

(43:08):
always welcome, aways welcome, but generally welcome. It's actually good advice. Yes, yes,
and this was good advice. The other day, a friend
of mine and I were talking about how when we
were young and we realized that we both had a
crush on both Molder and Scully, and we were so
confused and we didn't like, we didn't know bisexuality was

(43:35):
a thing, and feeling so confused about it, and um,
as we got older, kind of this internalized by negativity
that we thought it must be a phase, because that's
what we kept hearing, like you're young, You're going to
grow out of it. Um. Do you have any advice
for maybe younger people listening who are struggling with this

(43:58):
right now? Mm hmm absolutely and I completely with a
molder and Scully both and kind of girl as an
ex file stand in nan um and UM, I think
that it's okay to be in an experimental phase. I
think one of the things that is really stigmatizing about

(44:18):
people who are bisexual is there's this idea that many
people who are bisexual are just in a phase, and
so there's understandable hurt in UM. Sometimes a lesbian and
gay community with by people who are going to try
out dating them and then decided isn't for them? Um
and uh, you know a lot of people that get

(44:39):
hurt in that process. Sometimes. I think that my suggestion
is to be open to experimentation in a safe way
with people that you trust, without needing to have alcohol
involved or that need to have substances involved, UM, but
finding people who feel really safe and being able to
communicate honestly with them if you aren't sure. I think

(44:59):
that UM, rather than leaping into feeling like you need
to have a label for your identity, right away. Um.
You don't need to decesimilarly decide if you're by, if
your pan, if you're gay, if you're lesbian, if your trans, um,
if you're a general non binary. I think that it's
possible just to have some experiences and see what feels
right to you and be honest with the people around

(45:20):
you when you're not sure how you feel. Um. And
I think that it's also kind to those around you
if you say, um, you know, hey, this is my
first same sex relationship, but I'm not actually sure how
it's going to go for me, rather than meet someone
and say that you're bisexual and keep that hidden, and
especially if there might be the possibility they might decide, actually,

(45:41):
this isn't for me. Um. So I think that some
of that hurt that people have around people who are
experimentally by can be dealt with partly by just all
communicating a little bit more and being okay with the
possibility of experimenting. It's fine to need some time to
try to figure out who you are and try different experiences,
and sometimes you try something and figure out it as
for you and that's okay. So UM. I hope that

(46:03):
people can find safe places and safe people to feel
like they can have those experiences. And I recognize that
in much of the world, even in most of the
United States, it isn't actually safe for UM, a teenager,
for a college student necessarily to express same sex interest
and desire, and there's a lot of pressure to keep

(46:25):
yourself in the closet and to just play along with
being straight and UM. And I think that's really understandable,
and that it isn't always a safe thing to get
out and experiment with who you are UM. But there
are really wonderful supportive communities for you if you can
get yourself to them. UM. I was definitely one of
those people who fled to New York City when I
got the chance from a small working class or old

(46:46):
town UM and found myself in a place where then
it felt like it was safe to explore that part
of myself with other really conscious people who are also
interested in communicating and talking about it and processing who
we were. And they're embracing l g B, t q
I A communities out there UM online. If you can't
physically get to them, there's you know, wonderful supportive resources

(47:08):
and people who are happy to talk and help process UM.
So I would encourage people who are experimenting, who are
who are thinking out experimenting, who are confused, to feel
free to reach out to UM supportive people who've been
in the community for a while, because I think there's
a lot of UM support and a feeling of kinship

(47:29):
with that kind of journey, because you know, most of
us have been on bumpy journey to get where we
are now. We have some resources on our website UM
at Chosen Family Laws and or dot org UM, and
we post things really frequently online and in our newsletter UM.
And in addition, there's a book that I really love

(47:50):
UM called Whipping Girl by Julia Serrano UM and she
is a transsexual woman. She called herself trans sexual, that's
her own definition UM. And she talks about sexism and
the scapegoating of feminity. And she's also works with UH
at last as an endochronologist or has endo chronology knowledge.

(48:12):
So she describes her experience of living UM as somebody
who is assigned male at birth and then going through
the experience of UM identifying as female and experiencing sexism
for the first time UM and it's incredibly powerful. And
she also writes about the UH overlap between bisexuality and

(48:36):
being transgender and UM. I think she does that really
powerfully and also conveys UH the kind of definition of
bisexuality that I use UM in terms of bisexuality, not
referring to UM A gender binary is only male and female.
So I think that's one really fantastic resource UM. And
there's a really really active and vibrant community online where

(48:59):
you can find lots of lots of continuing conversation and
sometimes in fighting in the community. And and speaking of infighting,
I want to point out that although I personally use
the term bisexual, and I think it's important that we
hang onto that, and I haven't switched over to pan
sexual and don't think that there's necessarily a need for
a new word. I completely support people in using whatever

(49:21):
words and definitions feel right for them. So I support
people who feel like they want to use pan sexual
because it's going to be more readily apparent to people
who aren't necessarily activists in this space that it's transclusive
UM or froom. It just feels like the right term.
And I think it's important that while we hang onto
works like bisexual, which are legal medical definition important for

(49:42):
our activism politically UM that we also feel free to
experiment with words that UM are really personally meaningful for us,
and that can be and ever evolving. UM a set
of terms that describe how people are feeling abou their identity,
and I think that's absolutely a valid part of the

(50:04):
queer continuum. And I think that something that's also powerful
and not spoken of very often is the way that
we can go through a journey over the course of
our lifetime. And I think I have personally, you know,
known people who may have in the nineties identified as
a UM uh you know, ah butch lesbian who then

(50:28):
went on to identify as a trans man who now
may identify as more non binary as the different ideas
in our community evolved. And I don't think that that
makes any of those identifications any less valid, but I
think they were all on an active journey as a
community to to understand the full realms of um our

(50:49):
sexuality and gender spectrums and the ways that both can
even shift over a lifetime. I think that's also something
that's worth mentioning about bisexual identity that's really true for
me and many people I know, is that it is
not necessarily fixed at all times, and so over the
course of my twenty years of adult life, I haven't
necessarily been at all times fifty percent romantically and sexually

(51:11):
interested to men and women. There have been times when
I felt like I am mostly a lesbian, but I
am married to my husband and I love him, and
all other men kind of gross me out. And there
have been other times where I was primarily dating men. Um.
There have been times where I was primarily romantically attracted
to men and primarily actually attracted to women, which is complicated,
let me tell you, UM. And I think that all

(51:33):
of that is a really realistic portrayal of what this
journey can be like. And so if people feel a
little bit messy and confused along the way, or feel
like they're definition of themselves is shifting, I don't think
that's a problem. I think I think that's a feature,
not a bug. I think that's part of a beautiful,
expansive vision of queer identity that we're working on now.
And I think that's one of the ways that the

(51:53):
word queer is actually a really useful word, because queer
embraces a full continue them of identification and doesn't necessarily
require us to break ourselves down into like are you
in the ELB you know, are you over here in
the L box or the G box, B box, the
T box. I think that allows for multiple ways of
identifying which are outside of a system that uh enforces

(52:17):
sort of heterosexual different sex monogamy and people being sis gender.
Everybody who who feels like they are somewhere outside of
that or wants to allow for the possibility of that,
I think clear as a wonderful word in that way
as well. So one of my suggestions for listeners might
be to embrace the ways that they are evolving in
METHY and not feel any guilt a shame about that. Honestly,

(52:39):
I'd say, like, you're not, like, you're not alone. It
might it might seem like you're, you know, surrounded by
people who are some sort of different and the type
of different that you are people don't really get, but
you're not alone. Like there's massive bisexual communities that are
out there. Um yeah, younger people, older people, you know,

(53:03):
there's community, you know, um yeah, it might be kind
of hard to find at first if you're not sure
like where to look, but there's community out there, and
you know, like there's as much as there's like the
stereotype of like the confused bisexual, there's there's nothing wrong
with being confused, like people are. Humanity is like the
confusing concept, and it's it's okay, sort of like I

(53:27):
think that you want to figure some stuff out and
that's fine. Um, you know, being being confused for a bit, um,
it's fine, but just trying not to give into the
pressure that you have to choose a side when both
sides are great, great um white shoes, when you can

(53:47):
just live in either or life. I don't think there's
anything wrong with like answering both and right. Um. I
joke around a lot with my friends when you know,
we're just doing anything and they're like, oh, do you
want this or do you want this? And my answer
is just gonna be yes, Like do you want Indian flu?
Do you want Mexican food? Yes? I think that sort

(54:11):
of shifting that mindset. I mean, like I say it jokingly,
but like that's sort of what I want to do
is sort of shift shift people's mindset that it doesn't
have to be do you want um one sex or
one gender or one expression or like a whole unquole
opposite sex, gender, expressions, and they're multiple sexus genders and expressions.

(54:33):
But I think, you know, for some people to answer
is just yes, and that should just be okay. Yeah.
I think my advice is just to trust yourself. You know,
maybe you do like going to science bisexual, Maybe you
identify as pan sexual. Maybe your sexual orientation is fluid.
A lot of people have fluid sexual orientation, and that's

(54:55):
okay too. Maybe you've gone through different labels in your
life and you change labels as you age, and that's
okay too. Sexual orientation is natural. It is immutable in
the sense that everybody has a sexual orientation. But if
yours changes over time, that's okay too. You can be

(55:17):
born the way you are and that way fluctually and
evolve over time and still be just as valid as
people who knew from the time they were for and
have never changed. That's great too. But those among us
who have fluid sexual orientations, we are just as valid
and we were born the way we are. So if

(55:42):
you have an evolution and the evolution ends with you
identifying as buy your pan welcome. I love you. You
are part of my non monosexual community and you're amazing.
And if you are just stopping by non mono sexuality
through the day of your lifetime. You're also amazing. I
love you, UM, and I will advocate for you throughout

(56:02):
your lifetime. And yeah, I mean we're all awesome, We're
all cool. So the Bisexual Resource Center is a great UM.
It's got an online size of so in based in Boston,
but but if you look for Bisexual Resource Center online,
they're on Twitter. They they do a lot of work. UM.

(56:25):
They've got a lot of resources available around bisexuality and
and they're super awesome and collaborative. UM by Net USA
is also a great organization that does a lot of
organizing and that and that brings together, you know, people
on these issues and there's a lot of advocacy and
so that's a great group. There is a conference in

(56:46):
Minneapolis every year UM for UM for bisexual people. It's
called the Because Conference and it's been going on for
decades and most people don't know that. And so if
you actually want to go to a BI conference, you
can do that. There's also gonna be a BI conference
in San Francisco this October UM, so that's something UM.

(57:06):
And then there's also one of my favorite UM efforts
around promoting visibility for bisexual people is uh this still
Bisexual campaign. So if you look up like hashtag still bisexual, UM,
you'll find videos that people that bisexual people have made

(57:26):
where they tell their stories through these sort of like
they don't seek They've got like cards that they've written
on and there's music and there. It's a lovely way
to find bisexual people who might be similar to you
because you can search on their website by different um,
different types of bisexual people, like bisexual women or older
bisexual people, or you know, different kinds of like bisexual

(57:49):
people of color, different intersections, And I think that that's
a great way to try to find yourself reflected somewhere.
It's also a great way to be more visible, like
if people are like, hey, I want to do something
to support other bisexual people, and you can do that
and you might find this that it also supports you

(58:09):
actually speaking yourself or sharing your story and affirming that.
It can be a great way to UM to actually
elevate your own UM feelings about yourself as a bisexual person.
And UM. The bisexual Dispecsion groups that we have at
Santa Barbara UM a bunch of us participated. They actually

(58:29):
like the still bisexual folks came up from l A
and filmed us, and people in the group have talks
about how meaningful that wants for them to do that,
to share that, to get responses from people, honest. So
I really think that's a very cool effort. Yeah, and
I saw you got your video and one of the
cards was that you write bisexual haiku. Is that true?

(58:54):
It is true? I write bisexual hi t I call
it by two. Here's a bike tou that I've wrote.
Five month is over and I'm still bisexual. I'm not shocked,
are you? It's so good. So and in my class

(59:16):
um for the last day of class, I the students
I asked them to write a bi cou to summarize
something that they learned in the class. And so the
students wrote a bunch of awesome by twos. So I
also tweeted those out, so you'll be able to find
stuff that my amazing students. And of course we had
to ask about silver Line right, hope, some hope in

(59:40):
the future. Some projects going on, some amazing projects. I'm
working on this project with the colleague of mine, Amanda
call it on definitions of bisexuality. UM. So that's one
that we're um, we're working on writing and finishing up.
But I'm in my own research and um, well that's

(01:00:02):
of my research. But in my own research is my
new position as an assistant professor. I am doing a
study on the impact of micro aggression for queer people
of color, um. And with that, I'm also collecting data
on people, well black queer people, UM, but I'm also

(01:00:22):
collecting data on black bisexual people to sort of do
an interview and get some of their experiences. So I'm
really really excited about this one because one, I'm like
specifically looking at black queer people, um. And it's how
I'm starting like this new chapter of my life in

(01:00:43):
terms of this new position that I'm in and really
trying to like establish myself um further with research. So
I'm really excited about looking at this concept of microaggression, um,
both in terms of race and in terms of sexual
orientation as experienced by bisexual people. So I'm still I'm

(01:01:04):
still recruiting for that one actually, so it was probably
going to be recruiting for a few more months. UM,
but I'm so excited to get more people to take
the survey and sort of start to analyze the results
from that. I'm I'm really excited about what this is
going to look like. I'm part of a group called

(01:01:25):
by Law as a Dye Law, and it's a group
of bisexual attorneys who are activists around this issue. And
we didn't for example, and Amicust briefed the Supreme Court
during the Supreme Court litigation related to same sex marriage
about making sure that bisexual people were included in the language,

(01:01:46):
because much of the language was speaking only about kay
and lesbian people and not speaking about the fact that
m bisexuals are also impacted. And so you know, it's
not just that people who are gay or lesbian um
wouldn't have the opportunity to get married. Uh, you know,

(01:02:06):
only only gay leslieople you know, couldn't get married because
they u can't get into a different sex marriage. Even
for me, as a bisexual person, if I wanted to
choose that that should also be valid. Even if I
could potentially be in a different sex relationship, I might
want to choose the same sex relationship. So making sure
that that language is included is something that we often
are the ones who will submit an antechast brief bring

(01:02:28):
up that issue. This also comes up in issues like
UM integration cases when people are refugees who made stigmatized
because they are UM, because they've been in UM same
sex relationships, because they're perceived as lgbt Q, and then
sometimes if they're coming in and trying to prove their

(01:02:48):
immigration status UM, it could be used against them saying,
for example, you know you're not a lesbian who sigmatized
because we have proof that you are once in a
relationship with a man. Well, that doesn't mean that you're
an also a bisexual person who may face a lot
of stigma for that. I think that it's been an
incredibly useful thing for us as a community in the

(01:03:10):
past fifty years in Stonewall UM to fight so hard
for same sex marriage the United States, and it's been
an absolutely amazing civil rights victory. I often speak as
a lawyer about how it's an amazing story of a
political movement because going from such a deep level of
stigma to relative acceptance of same sex marriage as a
done deal in the United States in fifty years is

(01:03:31):
just absolutely astonishing. And so it's been incredibly important, I think,
and really powerful to fight for same sex marriage. But
now I'm part of the community of lawyers and activists saying, well,
hold on, not everybody wants to get married, and marriage
is not necessarily the only family form that's worth valuing.
Only half of American adults are actually married, and I'm

(01:03:51):
interested in finding out more information about what those other
kinds of family structures look like, because not everybody UM
is getting into marriages were choosing other things, and some
other people may have found other kinds of structures that
work for them. So, for example, I work with platonic
co parents, and that is situations in which people want
to be biological parents, but rather than dating that parenting

(01:04:12):
relationship on romance, UM finding a close, committed friend to
do that with. And I think that's particularly useful in
situations in which you might have a gay man that
wants to be a biological parent, that doesn't have or
want to spend hundred fifty thousand dollars on an egg
go or in surrogacy process, which is how much to
cost produxim in the United States right now, and maybe

(01:04:33):
that client of mind, who might be a forty year
old woman that doesn't want to just get married to
a guy she's been dating from match dot com for
three months, UM to have a baby and then get divorced,
because I see those divorce clients as well, UM, and
instead think, how about instead of rushing into a relationship
UM to have a child, I could do this with
my gay best friend from college and have actually a

(01:04:54):
lot more stability in that kind of relationship. UM. And
in addition, I work with U people who are doing
platonic co parenting with maybe a lesbian couple and a
gay couple who decide that you know, UM, a woman
from the lesbian couple and a UM, a man from
the male same six couple are going to get together
and UM find a way to platonically do an egg

(01:05:17):
baster or go to a fertility clinic process in order
to be biological parents together. And then maybe all four
are going to co parent, or maybe three people are
going to co parent, so that it's a couple and
an extra person or two couples. UM. And then finally
I work with people who are polyamorous, which is the
idea that you can be in more than one loving
relationship and with full consensual honesty with everyone involved, and

(01:05:42):
not just that you can sort of have the open
relationship and swinger idea of being able to have maybe
a close primary relationship UM and the only person you
have romanced with, but then also be able to have
other sexual relationships. Polyamory is the idea that you're at
least open to more than one committed relationship at times.
Sometimes in my community with my clients, that's three people

(01:06:03):
who are in e committed relationship together as a triad
or thruffle, or four people who are excited relationship together
as a quad and UM that's I think also a
really valid family form. And I work to support people
by helping them create co parenting agreements or agreements about
how they want to share their finances that really talk
them through a lot of the potential challenges, to help

(01:06:25):
them make plans in advance and make sure that all
of their intentions are on the same page. And I
think those conversations are actually more important than the contract
you end up with at the end. UM. I think
it's a really powerful way to support other kinds of families.
And I am actually myself polyamorous. My husband and I
have been together for twelve years. We're both bisexual, and UM,

(01:06:46):
we're in a polyamorous relationship, and for us, that's part
of our expression of being bisexual people. I was really
tormented in my mid twenties, um, thinking I'm going to
have to choose to be with a woman for the
rest of my life. I'm going to choose to be
with the man for the rest of life. And it
was just this agonizing choice for me because it felt
like it was gonna be really difficult. Um. It felt like,

(01:07:06):
are you going to only eat sweet foods forever or
savory foods forever? And I was like, no, I can't. Um.
And for me, that's part of an expression of my bisexuality.
But there is sometimes is a stereotype that bisexual people
are sexually promiscuous or that we can't be monogamous, and
I think that's absolutely not accurate. Um, this is something
that works for me, and there are a good number

(01:07:28):
of people who are bisexual who are also polyamorous or
otherwise non monogamous as part of an expression of their bisexuality,
but that certainly is not for everyone, and even being
polyamorous does not imply sexual promiscuity. I'm somebody who has
a few ongoing connections in addion to my partnership, including
a woman I've been involved with for five years, and
that's a more full expression of who I am as

(01:07:50):
a bisexual woman. And it's something that my spouse and
husband fully celebrates and I celebrate in him as well. UM.
So those are family forms that have not been traditionally
supported by a legal services organization. Many manical services organizations
that work with lgbt people primarily work with lesbian or

(01:08:10):
gay couples, you know, female same sex couples or male
same sex couples, or work with transgender people to get
name change documents. But I was interested in supporting a
fuller range of what lgbt Q families can look like,
which can sometimes um involve kinship units such as polyamorous people. UM.
I think it's also valid to make connections between these

(01:08:32):
kinds of queer families and people who might not think
of themselves as queer or lgbt Q, such as people
who form kinship networks in the urban black community, where
there's communities of aunties who get together and are supporting
each other and raising children. There's a lot of other
really valid ways to create family. UM. You know, if
my sister and I wanted to buy a house together,

(01:08:53):
and raise children together, and pay taxes together. Why shouldn't
we be allowed to use that relationship any less salid
than two people who were in love and got married
in Vegas last week. UM. I think that it's really
an important conversation now for us as an except after
same sex marriage, to think about those other kinds of
family forms as well. So there's a lot of times

(01:09:17):
that we are not even paying attention to the fact
that there are bisexual people and we're not gathering the
right data. So one of the things that we can
do is, you know, in terms of policy, UM, when
we're gathering data about people, and we're gathering data about
sexual orientation, then we should make sure that we don't

(01:09:37):
just have like lesbian, gay, bisexual as one category. That
we really need to break that apart and understand bisexual
people um uh separately from the way we understand lesliean
gay people. Like there's some overlap that there's also some distinctions. UM.
So that's one thing. Uh. There's also um ways in
which we want to make sure that we're providing services

(01:09:59):
um at that are and and doing you know, putting
resources um into the needs of bisexual people. Proportionate to
both the number of bisexual people in the population and
the level of need of bisexual people, which is pretty high.
So when we looked at like funding um at NIA,

(01:10:20):
for example, on the National Introduce of Health around UM
sexual Orication, you would think that based on the number
of bisexual people and the need, at least half of
those funds would be going to study bisexual people and
services for bisexual people. And and we're not seeing that.

(01:10:40):
I have to say, there's some really incurgent stuff going
on in terms of UM you know ni ah uh
collaborating with with researchers to recognize that need and try
to UM identify kind of what the agenda for bisexual
health research needs to be so that there are some
really good things happening around around that. But UM, but

(01:11:03):
some of those kinds of policies around what kind of
data if we collect, what kinds of resources are used,
And then the last thing is what kinds of protections
we have for people. So UM for example, if someone
is you know, speaking asylum in the United States because
they're persecuted in the country that they're coming from based
on their sexual orientation, and they're bisexual, then then if

(01:11:27):
they are speaking asylent like they might get told, oh,
we'll just make sure you don't get into a relationship
with somebody of of another gender because you know, you
should just say you're gay, um, because you know otherwise,
you know, we we won't necessarily be able to provide
those protections for you. And and you know that doesn't

(01:11:48):
really work for people because they you know, they're still
being just as persecuted based on being bisexual, you know,
in another country. And so saying we're not going to
acknowledge that bisexual quality as a foundation for your persecution, uh,
just is denying the reality of their That brings us

(01:12:10):
to the end of our two partner on bisexuality, and
we hope that it has been as informative for you
as it was for us, that we could do our
teeny podcast part in chipping away at some stigma and
that maybe some of you feel less alone and less
confused or okay with being confused. Right. So with that,

(01:12:32):
I wanted to make sure that we've gotten all of
the resources from the individuals, and they are They have
been gracious and sending it to me through emails and
out sending it to us through emails and through social media,
so we will definitely be posting that as well, if
you guys will look for It'll both be on Twitter,
Facebook and instagrams. Yes, yes, yes. And if you have
any any works that you'd like to send us, any

(01:12:55):
resources you'd like to send us, any by coos you'd
like to send us, please you You can email us
at Stuff Media, mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com.
You can find us on Instagram at stuff I've Never
Told You and on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks
again to our fabulous interview amazing people. Thank you, thank you,
thank you, thank you. Thank you for going to Twitter

(01:13:17):
stalk you and social media stalk you in a good way,
in a good way, in a good way. Thanks as
always to our super producer Andrew Howard, and thanks to
you for listening Stuff I've Never Told Your protection of
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