November 8, 2010 • 32 mins
Are female killers different from male killers? What motivates women to murder? In this episode, Molly and Cristen interview former FBI criminal profiler Candice DeLong to gain insights into the psychology and motivations of lady killers.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.
It's ready. Are you welcome to stuff Mom never told you?
From how stuff Works dot Com? Hello, and welcome to
the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Molly. Now, as most
(00:21):
of you all have probably picked up by now, Molly
and I write for a website called how stuff Works
dot com. However, we are not owned by how stuff
works dot Com. We're actually owned by company called Discovery
Communications that owns channels such as Discovery Channel, TLC, Animal
Planet and a channel you might not have heard of
(00:44):
called Investigation Discovery. And because we have this school Discovery
hook up, we were able to get a sneak peek
at a new show that's going to be on Investigation
Discovery this fall. It's called Facing Evil with Candice to Long,
and you got to interview candicet along herself. Yes, Candasa
(01:05):
Long was an FBI profiler who has been referred to
as the real Clarice from Silence of the Lamb. Yeah,
the Jodie Foster character, because she did do so much
work with the FBI and profiling And in this show,
she's gonna sit down and talk to women who have
killed and this is something we've touched on briefly in
(01:26):
our episode about the gender gap in crime UM, but
candas Long is going to take a much more in
depth look. And she gave us UM some sneak peaks
at what we can expect from this new show and
really developed this idea much further given the amount of
experience she has. So let's learn a little bit about
Candice too Long. We were excited to actually have the
(01:47):
opportunity to interview her because she has over forty years
of experience. So anyway, I don't I don't want to.
I don't want to get ahead of Candice. And I've
been reading her book, Special Agent by Candice to Long,
and it's her memoir of time in the FBI, and
she's been involved in some really, really cool stuff. So
this is a lady who who knows the mind of
a cremit. She does. And she started out as a
(02:08):
psychiatric nurse, as she will tell us a little bit
about right now. I was a psychiatric nurse for a
decade before the FBI. Before I went in the FBI.
In fact, when the FBI recruited me, I was head
nurse at the Institute of psychiatry in Chicago, and I
had been doing it for ten years. And one of
(02:29):
the things, I mean, the average day in the life
of a psychiatric nurse, and most of my career was
in maximum security. In an average eight hour day, you're
spending the vast majority of your time talking with your patients,
listening to your patients, dealing with their families, and you
see people at their absolute worst, and you hear unbelievable things.
(02:55):
You see things that happened to the I mean a
lot of people that are victimized by other people end
up in psychiatric units, sometimes decades after the victimization. And
sometimes we would get people accused of really unspeakable crimes
into the psych unit for thirty days of observation and treatment. UM.
(03:17):
So by the time I was recruited by the FBI,
I had seen a lot and had learned a lot
about human nature, and in particular, UM, how to interview,
how to listen, UM, how to not um show the
horror on your face that you're feeling in your heart
after something someone told you. UM. In addition to that,
(03:38):
being able to and this is where the FBI helped
me years later, being able to discern a lie or
an untruth or a faulty memory or things like that. Now.
In her book, DeLong writes about how she was one
of the first female agents in the FBI. She writes
about some of the troubles she came across in terms
(03:59):
of discrimination, in terms of guys not quite ready to
accept her as their peer yet, and so it definitely
wasn't all smooth sailing in those early days in the FBI.
When I went to the FBI Academy back in night, um,
women were fairly new in UH in terms of being
special agents and therefore going to the academy, and um,
(04:22):
we weren't really all that welcome by everybody. A lot
of a lot of the men considered us unwelcome gate crashers.
I think what got me through it was I was
raised with three brothers, no sisters. My father had been
a UH just gotten out of the navy World War two,
and my grandfather lived with it. I was raised in
a male dominated home and where there was a lot
(04:45):
of teasing and whatnot. So I learned to to not
be a victim, to to give it right back. And
I've got a good sense of humor, so that kind
of carried me through. I don't think the things that
happened to women and sub and also minorities at the
FBI and at the academy and then out in the field,
they just don't happen anymore. I didn't. I pretty much
(05:06):
stopped seeing that kind of nonsense the last ten years
of my career, and for young female agents that I
know now, I just don't hear those complaints at all
now since Candice de Long has so much experience and
she has profiled so many different types of criminals. I mean, Molly,
you know some some pretty high profile criminals that she's
gone after, right, Yeah, she was involved with the team
(05:29):
that brought down the UNI bomber, and she wasn't I
mean the cases she was involved, and she's tracked terrorists,
she's tracked rapists, she's tracked gangsters. I mean, reading her
book did give me the creeps a little bit, just
because there were a lot of criminals for Candisi longed
to take down. So, UM, I think that you know,
if you're going to get someone to profile criminals on
(05:51):
investigation Discovery, she's your woman. She's related to do it.
So she's gonna tell us a little bit about Um,
what the show is about, and of types of interviews
that she's doing with these female criminals. All of that
came into play. By the time I sat down to
interview these women this past um, spring and summer, I
had about forty years of experience going for me, and
(06:15):
I think all of that really helped these women feel
calm and not threatened by me. And three of the
four of them had to be coaxed by me to
be on the show that I wasn't going to hurt them,
um and we weren't there to make them look bad,
That I was there to get to know them and
for the audience to get to know. How does a
(06:36):
nice yeah, what was once a nice girl with dreams
of of maybe becoming a nurse in one case, or
or a teacher um who gets a college education, who
falls in love with someone, how does she end up
on serving life in prison without parole? How did that happen?
(06:56):
Because the vast majority of cases that were present on
I think both shows Deadly Women and Facing Evil with
Candice along are women that that could be your neighbor.
These are not natural born killers, and that really echoes
a lot of things that we talked about Kristen when
we did do that Gender Gap and Crime podcast that
there are really differences and the reasons that men and
(07:19):
women go about committing crime, and this show is going
to focus specifically on women who kill. And of course
that appealed to Molly and me because we like to
you know, dissect women, you know, up down in sideways
and then and well and men too, But specifically, since
success to do with lady killers, we wanted or or
(07:41):
women who commit premeditated murder. More formally, we wanted to
talk to Candice about any differences that she's noticed between
male and female killers. And these are murderers specifically that
she is talking about. And it's interesting because while there
are a couple of differences in the way that they
(08:03):
will carry out their crimes, there are also a lot
of similarities in terms of, I guess, kind of how
they mentally process the whole thing. So here's Candice on
the difference between male and female killers. When women kill
um the for the for the most part, yes, there's exceptions,
but when women kill, especially premeditated um murder, it is
(08:29):
the murder itself is is just something that has to
be done to get to where they want to be.
It's a means to an end, and they don't necessarily be.
Part of being a sociopath also known as psychopath, also
known as antisocial personality disorder, basically someone who has no
empathy for others and they tend to be users and abusers.
(08:51):
But one of the characteristics of that particular personality disorder,
if you're a sociopath, is these people start lying when
they're about three or four years old. They will lie
when the truth is easier. They are the little kid
that mom hears a noise in the kitchen. She goes
in the kitchen. The kid is standing on a step stool,
(09:13):
arm in the cookie jart down to its elbow and
Mom says, I told you you couldn't have a kid cookie.
And the kid turns around with raisins and chocolate cromebs
on his face and says, I'm not. They lie. They
start lying as kids. And now if a mom laughs
at that, and I admit, that's pretty funny. Um, you
(09:34):
just bought the kid there next lie because you're reinforced
it by by laughing. So those are the differences between
how men and women commit a murder. Now, someone like
Candas is going to get involved when obviously they're trying
to track this person down, and she would be involved
with creating a profile of who this person is and
(09:56):
I'm finding that person. Now, I think we all want
to know, is there is there a gender that's going
to be more likely to be caught out for their
crimes If you're in there in the police station facing
the questioning, someone's pulling the good cop, bad cop anya,
who's more likely to crack? Who's doing a better job
(10:16):
at holding up an alibi? So we asked Candice A Long,
who's the better liar when it comes to these criminals,
men or women? And interestingly, you know, with this kind
of pathology, it really doesn't come down to gender. It's
all about just the mind of a psychopath. So let's
hear her on this lying behavior for a sociopath is
(10:40):
it makes them feel momentarily superior to others. They actually
believe a couple of things when they tell a line.
Number one, well, they believe a few things. Number one
is I'm gonna lie to you and you're gonna believe me.
The reason you're gonna be believe me is I'm very
good at lying and you're stupid. That's what they believe.
(11:00):
So when they tell a lie, Hey honey, I told
you couldn't have a cookie, I'm not having a cookie.
Isn't that your arm in the cookie jar? No? And
then they just get up and walk away. Um, they
believe there's this sense of ego that they are superior
to us stupid people, and therefore you will buy what
they say. Now, Also when it comes to motivations, seems
(11:24):
like from what Candice told us, there is one big
theme that drives both male and female killers, and that
is love. Love combined with different facets like money. How
many people are involved in a love triangle? Yeah, I
(11:45):
love rectangle. Yeah. If if Candice so long, we're to
offer you any kind of relationship advice, it would be
stay away from love triangles. Sometimes you don't know if
you're in a love trianingle, right not, and then you
end up dead. So before Chris and I just get
to to wound up thinking about it. For possibly in
love triangles we don't know about. Here's Candice de long Room.
Of a hundred female killers in it, um, the vast
(12:06):
majority killed someone for money for profit. Um. Now some
of them may kill because husband has a life insurance
policy of five million, and some of them will kill
because they want their boyfriend's motorcycle. I mean, there's a
broad spectrum of of what one would consider the riches
or the spoils of a murder. That's the that's the
(12:27):
real common reason. UM. The number one motivator of murder
in general, male or female is jealousy, romantic jealousy. And
that is when we tend to get into your um
cases where you have uh, love triangles where someone has
been sholted. But if love triangles are dangerous for all
(12:49):
three people every If if you're in a love triangle
and some people are in a love triangle and don't
know it, usually one party in the love triangle does
not know they're in a love triangle, and that's the
person who's being cheated upon, and their life could be
in danger. The person who is cheating on their partner's
(13:10):
life may be in danger by two other people, and
then the person the third party's life may be in danger.
If so, there's all this crazy stuff. In fact, I
wrote an article for Cosmo magazine a few years ago
about this very fan thing. So jealous that romantic jealousy
is is a very strong motivator. Now, of course, since
we're talking about women who kill, you have to talk
about the subset of women killers lady killers, and that
(13:34):
is mothers who kill their children. And I think, Molly,
if there's any type of murder that is maybe that
maybe attracts more public outrage, it is mothers who kill
their children, because it's like it's it's something that the
public just doesn't grasp, you know, because we it's it
goes completely against this idea of the nurturing caregiver. And
(13:55):
one case in particular that we brought up with Candice
DeLong wasn't Andrea Yeates case. And if you don't remember,
this is where this mother who had mental problems drowned
five of her children in two thousand one, and it just,
you know, the press surrounding this case. I still remember it.
Just like you said, Kristen, it was people just could
not fathom that this would happen. And like you said, Kristen,
(14:16):
people just could not fathom that this would happen. And
so in talking about mothers who killed their children and
their motivations and the concept of mental illness, Candice Alonge
had this to say, mother's killing kids um more often
it's not the Andrea Yates um. Although schizophrenics UM. It's
(14:37):
shortly after the Andrea Yates case. A woman here in
San Francisco, AH, young woman in her twenties, had three
little kids, untreated schizophrenia, and she kept having kids. Uh.
And one evening, a beautiful summer evening here, she went
down to the bay and one by one took her
kids out of the car and just dropped them in
the water and they drowned. With watching, you know, because
(15:02):
when people see stuff like that, they tend to know
it doesn't register. They can't believe their eyes, and by
the time they're moved into action, it's too late. Um.
So here was a case of a woman with with
once again I don't know her exact reason, um, but
untreated schizophrenia. It's dangerous for schizophrenics to be raising children. Um.
(15:23):
But that's that's the unusual type of murders that The
more common type of murders are when mother murder. Mothers
murder their kids is their kids have become inconvenient and
they don't want them around. For example, I we've all
we all know about the Suzanne Smith case. You know,
she was bed hopping um. Her life was not her image,
(15:46):
her her ego required the sexual attention of a man
pretty much at all times. And she wanted to date
a guy at work that didn't want anything to do
with her because he wrote her letters that I don't
want to ready made family. And she took those two
beautiful little boys, strapped him in their car seats, and
uh sent the car into the lake and then went
called the police and said a black guy came and
(16:07):
took her car and her kids, and then it all
fall apart. A year, a year, a month later, was
she mentally ill? You know what I don't understand is
why didn't she just call her epso husband and say
I don't want the kids anymore, you take them. What
I don't understand and what I think is a fascinating subject.
And sometimes we have discussed this on the show. Is
(16:29):
that would be the easy thing. But there's a motivation
behind why women don't do that, And it all has
to do with making themselves look like a victim to
the world. UM murderers easier van being seen as a
mother who doesn't want her own kids. And our society
does that, you know, our society, You know what that's
(16:52):
one of the worst things our side. Oh mother doesn't
love her kids, doesn't want to raise your kids. A
horrible person. Horrible person. So sometimes we see these mothers
killing their own kids because, um, it's a way of
getting what they want, which is not to be a
mother and sympathy from the community. Oh my gosh, a
big bad boogeyman came and took her kids. Oh don't
(17:13):
we feel badly for her? You know. So there's all
kinds of all kinds of reasons in there, and they're
all fascinating, I think so. Now listening to Candice de
Long describe the Anda Andrea Yates case, it really reminded
me of when we did our podcast on female criminals
before Kristen, because we talked about how you can find
sort of a reason or a motivation in these women's
(17:36):
past and it's not an excuse per se, because they're
still doing crimes, but there is usually something that kind of,
you know, it's like an asterix next to the act
and reminding you how women can end up doing this.
And so we asked her to elaborate a little bit
more on the role of mental illness in this case.
In a really compassionate society. We do not execute mentally
(18:00):
on the mentally retarded when they commit a crime, as
horrible as crimes are. But the Andrew's problem, and and
and other people that have killed their children, whether they're
related to the person or not, whether it's a stranger
that comes out and grabs a little girl and drives
off with her and rapes her and murders her. I
just described a case I worked when I was a
young agent or uh, and Andrew Yates type of child
(18:21):
murder um. The problem is the public. The community wants
revenge when a child is murdered. The public wants someone
to pay for it, and it's probably going to be
whoever is sitting at the descendants table, whether they did
it or not. Of course, there's no dispute that Andrea
(18:44):
Yates killed her kids. After she did, she called the
police and said, you need to come over. I killed
the kids. And she called her husband, Honey, you need
to come home. I just killed the kids. She didn't
try to hide it because she believed what she did
was the right thing to do to save the children.
For Jesus, Jesus, so um, I don't think Andrews should
be walking around and I don't think if she ever
(19:04):
gets out that she should be put in charge of
a monetary school. Her delusion delusions that schizophrenics have, they
have in their whole life. So is the general public
safe from Andrea Yates? Worked she to be released, Yes,
as long as you're not a child, Because the rest
of Andrea's life, even with medication, she's still going to
(19:27):
believe that she's a bad mother, that she's a bad
influence on little children. The devil will get them unless
she sends them to heaven. And that's just the way
delusions are. And speaking of Andrea Yates, we wanted um
Candice along to elaborate more on this idea of the
postpartum defense because it's something that we've seen come up
more often in higher profile cases of mothers killing their children.
(19:50):
And um we also wanted to know how the psychiatric
defenses play a role as well, because once you you know,
and you throw mental illness into the mix, you know,
if someone is compelled because of schizophrenia, say to murder someone,
should they be um you know, should they be up
for say execution of some sort. I mean, it just
(20:14):
starts to pull in some pretty tricky questions for for
the criminal justice system. So this is what kinda still
long has to say about that we are seeing more
people use psychiatric defenses. But here's the big clue, and
and this is where my clinical background comes in. The
vast majority of people that are mentally ill do not
(20:39):
commit violent crimes when or murder in particular, when they do,
there is a clear, visible, longstanding history of mental illness
that is generally documented. People that suffer from schizop prenia,
(21:00):
it usually surfaces and they have their first psychotic break
or psychotic postpartum depression in this case, in their late
teens early twenties, and untreated it can grow. And so
generally we don't see teenage schizophrenics committing committing horrible crimes,
but we see schizophrenics in their late twenties and early thirties.
(21:23):
If they are going to be compelled to commit some
kind of horrible crime, and Andrey Yates isn't the only
one that did this kind of thing, then we generally
see that after they've been in and out of psych facilities,
there's a long documented paper trail of their illness. And
so if somebody decides they just don't want to be
a mom anymore that their two kids. We have another
(21:44):
South Carolina case last week of a woman that killed
her two kids in a lake. Um uh, And they go, oh,
I add a depression or you know, well, chances are
unless it's documented, and depression does on occasion lead mothers
to kill children and then themselves. We've we've even had
cases on on deadly women of mothers that did this. Um.
(22:08):
But psychosis is a whole different thing. So what I'm
saying is as a prosecutor, it's gonna be evey easy
to determine if the person's lying or not. For a
defense attorney, it will be easy to determine if they
actually do have a history of mental illness and and does.
I don't want anybody to misunderstand me. I don't think
people that are mentally ill that commit murders should be
(22:29):
out walking around. But they certainly shouldn't be in rison
in prison being beaten and abused and raped and mistreated
when it was their mental illness, which is an affliction.
It absolutely is an affliction, and and they should be
in a they should be in a maximum security psychiatric facility,
or at least they'll be able to get medication and
(22:49):
maybe won't be beaten and raped for the rest of
their life. So obviously, for someone like DeLong, who has
forty years of experience, when she sits down and talks
to these female killers, these convicted killers for the show
coming up on an investigation discovery, you know, there has
(23:10):
to be so she has to look at them so
differently than maybe you or I would, Molly. She has
to understand all of this background of potential mental illness
and the slippery slope that can happen sometimes for people
to end up, you know, from the good girl, if
you will, to all of a sudden the convicted criminal.
So it seems like she really takes a more empathetic
(23:32):
view of them. And perhaps even just by virtue of
her being a woman sitting down and talking to a woman,
there are certain shared experiences that might play into it.
So Candice talked to us a little bit about how
empathy can come into profiling and interviewing the women on
the show. Even though I may shake my head and
(23:53):
say to myself, there this doesn't make sense that such
a smart woman could be led by a man and
and and convinced by him to kill his wife. This woman,
this is a smart woman. Why would she do that?
You know? And uh, well, I can love the funny
thing ladies. So I do feel I do feel empathy.
(24:15):
And and in particular the woman in UM Australia UM
that served time for killing her father, when you hear
her whole story, you'll have empathy too. This is not
an evil woman. This is a woman that was led
to that was compelled to do an evil thing. Andrea Yates,
let's look at that for a minute. The probably the
(24:36):
most famous um postpartum depression psychosis case in the United States,
for sure, drowned all our children. It was about nine
years ago this summer. Drowned all our children one by one.
She was compelled to do that evil thing because she
of an untreated mental illness, and she was delusional and
(24:56):
she really believed she was sending her children to Jesus,
so the double wouldn't get them. I worked with people
that think like that as a nurse that schizophrenia. UM.
So here you've got this horrible, evil deed. And the
first prosecutor on the case wanted a needle in her arm,
when in fact she was compelled to do what she
did because of mental illness. So it was an evil deed.
(25:18):
But is she an evil person or I don't think so. Now.
The interesting thing was, as part of as part of
these interviews, Candice Long mentioned that there was this one
Australian case. There's one case that she profiles on the
show where she said sound talks to this Australian woman
who was convicted of murder, and she said it was
the most fascinating interview that she has done in forty
(25:41):
years of work profiling criminals. So we thought that this
would be the perfect way to end the podcast. Let
Candice um tease to this pretty pretty powerful interview from
what she has to say about it. Well, when you
see her story, she's thirty now. Um, she serves six
years in prison for solicitate solicitation of the murder of
(26:04):
her father, UM, who was murdered by her um uh
then um boyfriend when when they were I think, uh, seventeen.
But there is a uh catch. I suppose you might
say children that kill parents with rare exception, we do
(26:27):
have the Menendez brothers types in the world that that
would be known as a nihilistic killing. There was really
no good reason at all for those boys to do
what they did. Uh, they wanted the money. But with
rare exception, when children kill parents, or a child kills
a parent, um and and that child is, you know,
in their teens or adolescents, you can almost always look
(26:52):
into the background and you will find severe abuse, emotional, physical,
and and and frequently sexual as well. So by the
time the viewer understands what this what happened to this woman,
By the time she sat down with me, and at
this point she's been released from prison for several years, um,
(27:13):
you have a real clear understanding of of what her
her background was like and what led up to um
the murder. And she when I'm very proud of the
fact is she was so comfortable with me that I
don't want to tell you you You're just gonna have
to watch it. Uh. She was so comfortable with me
(27:35):
that she said some rather incredible things, things that I've
never seen anyone say on television before. And she's also
a very likable person. I liked her a lot. She's
not a natural born killer. She um uh found herself
in ongoing circumstances that all led to a situation. And uh,
(27:56):
it is what it is, and it's absolutely fascinating. So
that was the bulcome our interview with Candice DeLong and uh,
I didn't hear much from us this episode. But when
you've got someone's fascinating as Candice along on the other
end of the line, you want to learn as much
as you can about about these lady killers as we've
dubbed them. Yeah, let us know what you thought. I mean,
I think it was a pretty fascinating conversation and something
(28:18):
she said some things that I didn't expect her to
say either, So we'd love to hear your feedback as well.
Our email is mom Stuff at how stuff works dot
com and don't forget to tune into Facing Evil with
Candice de Long. It airs Thursday November Friday November at
ten pm each night on Investigation Discovery. It sounds like
perfect Thanksgiving viewing. Indeed, just some some light television viewing
(28:42):
about serial killers. So in the meantime, let's read some
listener mail. Now wait, wait, wait, Christen, before we get
into listener mail, jump too soon. We've got a pretty
cool announcement we need to go over about the app
that how stuff works to com. That's right, how self
Works dot Com has a brand new app that you
(29:04):
can download on your iPhone, you can access how stef
works dot com articles, videos, blogs, and of course the podcast.
You know, because if we haven't saturated your life enough,
we need to make sure we're there whenever you're on
the go, so we ever have to leave home without us.
So download that app. Check it out. I mean there
(29:25):
might be some I don't know, maybe some pictures of
you and me, Molly. I don't want to promise anything,
but you'll have to find up for yourself. So download
the app how So Fast dot COM's new iPhone app,
And now we can get back to listener mail. And
this email is from Laura. It's from the Do Men
and Women Cook Differently? Episode? And Laura writes, I'm a
(29:46):
mom to one boy and one girl. Early on, with
no prodding for me or their dad, I knows the
kids treating their gender neutral play kitchen differently. My daughter
cooked meals with the primary focus being to get food
in front of her multitude of dolls and babies. She
fed them and cleaned them and busted them for throwing
food on the floor. For her food was nurturing. My son, however,
(30:06):
cooked grandiose meals with multiple courses and plenty of spice
and flourish. Some of the combinations he came up with
for dishes sounded good enough to eat even if they
were rendered in plastic, even now in their tween years.
My daughter is at heart a parent and teacher, and
when she cooks for real these days, it's mom food.
My son, a scientists to the core, is interested in
the chemistry and flavor and presentation of each dish. So
(30:28):
very interesting to hear how those gender differences can take
hold early. All right, I've got one here from Diana,
and she is writing in response to our episode on
Chinese foot binding, and she makes courses. She's been doing
it for seventeen years, and she wanted to point out
that while yes, course at wearing and footbinding have some similarities,
(30:52):
and that they both are practices that many of us
find unusual today, she says the similarities stop there. She
says mostly wearing was often only a daytime practice, and
the course it would be removed during sleep and bathing,
allowing the body some rest instead of being constricted all
day long every day. Most courses were not were very
tightly at all, but a few women did enjoy cinching
(31:14):
it as small as possible. Before the Industrial Revolution, most
corsets were custom made to measure, and we're very comfortable
to wear with little health problems as a result. With
a properly custom crafted corset, women could achieve incredibly tiny
waists with little discomfort or ill health. Off the rat
corsets that were sold according to desired waste size alone
(31:34):
caused problems from many women like discomfort, shortness of breath,
and even some broken ribs. She says, courses are still
worn today, a great deal for both extreme tight lacing
and moderate wear by men and women, and as always,
custom is safer and more comfortable. So thank you Diana
the corset maker. That's fascinating. Didn't even realize that that
(31:55):
was a profession stone Perhaps the follow up podcast, So
keep your emails coming. It's mom Stuff at how stuff
works dot com. Or you can share your thoughts with
other listeners as well on our Facebook page, and then
you can follow us on Twitter. It's mom Stuff podcast.
And then finally we got a little blog and it's
called stuff I Never told you, and it's a how
(32:17):
stuff works dot com. For more on this and thousands
of other topics, is it how stuff works dot com?
Want more? How stuff Works. Check out our blogs on
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(32:39):
are you
Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.
It's ready. Are you welcome to stuff Mom never told you?
From how stuff Works dot Com? Hello, and welcome to
the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Molly. Now, as most
(00:21):
of you all have probably picked up by now, Molly
and I write for a website called how stuff Works
dot com. However, we are not owned by how stuff
works dot Com. We're actually owned by company called Discovery
Communications that owns channels such as Discovery Channel, TLC, Animal
Planet and a channel you might not have heard of
(00:44):
called Investigation Discovery. And because we have this school Discovery
hook up, we were able to get a sneak peek
at a new show that's going to be on Investigation
Discovery this fall. It's called Facing Evil with Candice to Long,
and you got to interview candicet along herself. Yes, Candasa
(01:05):
Long was an FBI profiler who has been referred to
as the real Clarice from Silence of the Lamb. Yeah,
the Jodie Foster character, because she did do so much
work with the FBI and profiling And in this show,
she's gonna sit down and talk to women who have
killed and this is something we've touched on briefly in
(01:26):
our episode about the gender gap in crime UM, but
candas Long is going to take a much more in
depth look. And she gave us UM some sneak peaks
at what we can expect from this new show and
really developed this idea much further given the amount of
experience she has. So let's learn a little bit about
Candice too Long. We were excited to actually have the
(01:47):
opportunity to interview her because she has over forty years
of experience. So anyway, I don't I don't want to.
I don't want to get ahead of Candice. And I've
been reading her book, Special Agent by Candice to Long,
and it's her memoir of time in the FBI, and
she's been involved in some really, really cool stuff. So
this is a lady who who knows the mind of
a cremit. She does. And she started out as a
(02:08):
psychiatric nurse, as she will tell us a little bit
about right now. I was a psychiatric nurse for a
decade before the FBI. Before I went in the FBI.
In fact, when the FBI recruited me, I was head
nurse at the Institute of psychiatry in Chicago, and I
had been doing it for ten years. And one of
(02:29):
the things, I mean, the average day in the life
of a psychiatric nurse, and most of my career was
in maximum security. In an average eight hour day, you're
spending the vast majority of your time talking with your patients,
listening to your patients, dealing with their families, and you
see people at their absolute worst, and you hear unbelievable things.
(02:55):
You see things that happened to the I mean a
lot of people that are victimized by other people end
up in psychiatric units, sometimes decades after the victimization. And
sometimes we would get people accused of really unspeakable crimes
into the psych unit for thirty days of observation and treatment. UM.
(03:17):
So by the time I was recruited by the FBI,
I had seen a lot and had learned a lot
about human nature, and in particular, UM, how to interview,
how to listen, UM, how to not um show the
horror on your face that you're feeling in your heart
after something someone told you. UM. In addition to that,
(03:38):
being able to and this is where the FBI helped
me years later, being able to discern a lie or
an untruth or a faulty memory or things like that. Now.
In her book, DeLong writes about how she was one
of the first female agents in the FBI. She writes
about some of the troubles she came across in terms
(03:59):
of discrimination, in terms of guys not quite ready to
accept her as their peer yet, and so it definitely
wasn't all smooth sailing in those early days in the FBI.
When I went to the FBI Academy back in night, um,
women were fairly new in UH in terms of being
special agents and therefore going to the academy, and um,
(04:22):
we weren't really all that welcome by everybody. A lot
of a lot of the men considered us unwelcome gate crashers.
I think what got me through it was I was
raised with three brothers, no sisters. My father had been
a UH just gotten out of the navy World War two,
and my grandfather lived with it. I was raised in
a male dominated home and where there was a lot
(04:45):
of teasing and whatnot. So I learned to to not
be a victim, to to give it right back. And
I've got a good sense of humor, so that kind
of carried me through. I don't think the things that
happened to women and sub and also minorities at the
FBI and at the academy and then out in the field,
they just don't happen anymore. I didn't. I pretty much
(05:06):
stopped seeing that kind of nonsense the last ten years
of my career, and for young female agents that I
know now, I just don't hear those complaints at all
now since Candice de Long has so much experience and
she has profiled so many different types of criminals. I mean, Molly,
you know some some pretty high profile criminals that she's
gone after, right, Yeah, she was involved with the team
(05:29):
that brought down the UNI bomber, and she wasn't I
mean the cases she was involved, and she's tracked terrorists,
she's tracked rapists, she's tracked gangsters. I mean, reading her
book did give me the creeps a little bit, just
because there were a lot of criminals for Candisi longed
to take down. So, UM, I think that you know,
if you're going to get someone to profile criminals on
(05:51):
investigation Discovery, she's your woman. She's related to do it.
So she's gonna tell us a little bit about Um,
what the show is about, and of types of interviews
that she's doing with these female criminals. All of that
came into play. By the time I sat down to
interview these women this past um, spring and summer, I
had about forty years of experience going for me, and
(06:15):
I think all of that really helped these women feel
calm and not threatened by me. And three of the
four of them had to be coaxed by me to
be on the show that I wasn't going to hurt them,
um and we weren't there to make them look bad,
That I was there to get to know them and
for the audience to get to know. How does a
(06:36):
nice yeah, what was once a nice girl with dreams
of of maybe becoming a nurse in one case, or
or a teacher um who gets a college education, who
falls in love with someone, how does she end up
on serving life in prison without parole? How did that happen?
(06:56):
Because the vast majority of cases that were present on
I think both shows Deadly Women and Facing Evil with
Candice along are women that that could be your neighbor.
These are not natural born killers, and that really echoes
a lot of things that we talked about Kristen when
we did do that Gender Gap and Crime podcast that
there are really differences and the reasons that men and
(07:19):
women go about committing crime, and this show is going
to focus specifically on women who kill. And of course
that appealed to Molly and me because we like to
you know, dissect women, you know, up down in sideways
and then and well and men too, But specifically, since
success to do with lady killers, we wanted or or
(07:41):
women who commit premeditated murder. More formally, we wanted to
talk to Candice about any differences that she's noticed between
male and female killers. And these are murderers specifically that
she is talking about. And it's interesting because while there
are a couple of differences in the way that they
(08:03):
will carry out their crimes, there are also a lot
of similarities in terms of, I guess, kind of how
they mentally process the whole thing. So here's Candice on
the difference between male and female killers. When women kill
um the for the for the most part, yes, there's exceptions,
but when women kill, especially premeditated um murder, it is
(08:29):
the murder itself is is just something that has to
be done to get to where they want to be.
It's a means to an end, and they don't necessarily be.
Part of being a sociopath also known as psychopath, also
known as antisocial personality disorder, basically someone who has no
empathy for others and they tend to be users and abusers.
(08:51):
But one of the characteristics of that particular personality disorder,
if you're a sociopath, is these people start lying when
they're about three or four years old. They will lie
when the truth is easier. They are the little kid
that mom hears a noise in the kitchen. She goes
in the kitchen. The kid is standing on a step stool,
(09:13):
arm in the cookie jart down to its elbow and
Mom says, I told you you couldn't have a kid cookie.
And the kid turns around with raisins and chocolate cromebs
on his face and says, I'm not. They lie. They
start lying as kids. And now if a mom laughs
at that, and I admit, that's pretty funny. Um, you
(09:34):
just bought the kid there next lie because you're reinforced
it by by laughing. So those are the differences between
how men and women commit a murder. Now, someone like
Candas is going to get involved when obviously they're trying
to track this person down, and she would be involved
with creating a profile of who this person is and
(09:56):
I'm finding that person. Now, I think we all want
to know, is there is there a gender that's going
to be more likely to be caught out for their
crimes If you're in there in the police station facing
the questioning, someone's pulling the good cop, bad cop anya,
who's more likely to crack? Who's doing a better job
(10:16):
at holding up an alibi? So we asked Candice A Long,
who's the better liar when it comes to these criminals,
men or women? And interestingly, you know, with this kind
of pathology, it really doesn't come down to gender. It's
all about just the mind of a psychopath. So let's
hear her on this lying behavior for a sociopath is
(10:40):
it makes them feel momentarily superior to others. They actually
believe a couple of things when they tell a line.
Number one, well, they believe a few things. Number one
is I'm gonna lie to you and you're gonna believe me.
The reason you're gonna be believe me is I'm very
good at lying and you're stupid. That's what they believe.
(11:00):
So when they tell a lie, Hey honey, I told
you couldn't have a cookie, I'm not having a cookie.
Isn't that your arm in the cookie jar? No? And
then they just get up and walk away. Um, they
believe there's this sense of ego that they are superior
to us stupid people, and therefore you will buy what
they say. Now, Also when it comes to motivations, seems
(11:24):
like from what Candice told us, there is one big
theme that drives both male and female killers, and that
is love. Love combined with different facets like money. How
many people are involved in a love triangle? Yeah, I
(11:45):
love rectangle. Yeah. If if Candice so long, we're to
offer you any kind of relationship advice, it would be
stay away from love triangles. Sometimes you don't know if
you're in a love trianingle, right not, and then you
end up dead. So before Chris and I just get
to to wound up thinking about it. For possibly in
love triangles we don't know about. Here's Candice de long Room.
Of a hundred female killers in it, um, the vast
(12:06):
majority killed someone for money for profit. Um. Now some
of them may kill because husband has a life insurance
policy of five million, and some of them will kill
because they want their boyfriend's motorcycle. I mean, there's a
broad spectrum of of what one would consider the riches
or the spoils of a murder. That's the that's the
(12:27):
real common reason. UM. The number one motivator of murder
in general, male or female is jealousy, romantic jealousy. And
that is when we tend to get into your um
cases where you have uh, love triangles where someone has
been sholted. But if love triangles are dangerous for all
(12:49):
three people every If if you're in a love triangle
and some people are in a love triangle and don't
know it, usually one party in the love triangle does
not know they're in a love triangle, and that's the
person who's being cheated upon, and their life could be
in danger. The person who is cheating on their partner's
(13:10):
life may be in danger by two other people, and
then the person the third party's life may be in danger.
If so, there's all this crazy stuff. In fact, I
wrote an article for Cosmo magazine a few years ago
about this very fan thing. So jealous that romantic jealousy
is is a very strong motivator. Now, of course, since
we're talking about women who kill, you have to talk
about the subset of women killers lady killers, and that
(13:34):
is mothers who kill their children. And I think, Molly,
if there's any type of murder that is maybe that
maybe attracts more public outrage, it is mothers who kill
their children, because it's like it's it's something that the
public just doesn't grasp, you know, because we it's it
goes completely against this idea of the nurturing caregiver. And
(13:55):
one case in particular that we brought up with Candice
DeLong wasn't Andrea Yeates case. And if you don't remember,
this is where this mother who had mental problems drowned
five of her children in two thousand one, and it just,
you know, the press surrounding this case. I still remember it.
Just like you said, Kristen, it was people just could
not fathom that this would happen. And like you said, Kristen,
(14:16):
people just could not fathom that this would happen. And
so in talking about mothers who killed their children and
their motivations and the concept of mental illness, Candice Alonge
had this to say, mother's killing kids um more often
it's not the Andrea Yates um. Although schizophrenics UM. It's
(14:37):
shortly after the Andrea Yates case. A woman here in
San Francisco, AH, young woman in her twenties, had three
little kids, untreated schizophrenia, and she kept having kids. Uh.
And one evening, a beautiful summer evening here, she went
down to the bay and one by one took her
kids out of the car and just dropped them in
the water and they drowned. With watching, you know, because
(15:02):
when people see stuff like that, they tend to know
it doesn't register. They can't believe their eyes, and by
the time they're moved into action, it's too late. Um.
So here was a case of a woman with with
once again I don't know her exact reason, um, but
untreated schizophrenia. It's dangerous for schizophrenics to be raising children. Um.
(15:23):
But that's that's the unusual type of murders that The
more common type of murders are when mother murder. Mothers
murder their kids is their kids have become inconvenient and
they don't want them around. For example, I we've all
we all know about the Suzanne Smith case. You know,
she was bed hopping um. Her life was not her image,
(15:46):
her her ego required the sexual attention of a man
pretty much at all times. And she wanted to date
a guy at work that didn't want anything to do
with her because he wrote her letters that I don't
want to ready made family. And she took those two
beautiful little boys, strapped him in their car seats, and
uh sent the car into the lake and then went
called the police and said a black guy came and
(16:07):
took her car and her kids, and then it all
fall apart. A year, a year, a month later, was
she mentally ill? You know what I don't understand is
why didn't she just call her epso husband and say
I don't want the kids anymore, you take them. What
I don't understand and what I think is a fascinating subject.
And sometimes we have discussed this on the show. Is
(16:29):
that would be the easy thing. But there's a motivation
behind why women don't do that, And it all has
to do with making themselves look like a victim to
the world. UM murderers easier van being seen as a
mother who doesn't want her own kids. And our society
does that, you know, our society, You know what that's
(16:52):
one of the worst things our side. Oh mother doesn't
love her kids, doesn't want to raise your kids. A
horrible person. Horrible person. So sometimes we see these mothers
killing their own kids because, um, it's a way of
getting what they want, which is not to be a
mother and sympathy from the community. Oh my gosh, a
big bad boogeyman came and took her kids. Oh don't
(17:13):
we feel badly for her? You know. So there's all
kinds of all kinds of reasons in there, and they're
all fascinating, I think so. Now listening to Candice de
Long describe the Anda Andrea Yates case, it really reminded
me of when we did our podcast on female criminals
before Kristen, because we talked about how you can find
sort of a reason or a motivation in these women's
(17:36):
past and it's not an excuse per se, because they're
still doing crimes, but there is usually something that kind of,
you know, it's like an asterix next to the act
and reminding you how women can end up doing this.
And so we asked her to elaborate a little bit
more on the role of mental illness in this case.
In a really compassionate society. We do not execute mentally
(18:00):
on the mentally retarded when they commit a crime, as
horrible as crimes are. But the Andrew's problem, and and
and other people that have killed their children, whether they're
related to the person or not, whether it's a stranger
that comes out and grabs a little girl and drives
off with her and rapes her and murders her. I
just described a case I worked when I was a
young agent or uh, and Andrew Yates type of child
(18:21):
murder um. The problem is the public. The community wants
revenge when a child is murdered. The public wants someone
to pay for it, and it's probably going to be
whoever is sitting at the descendants table, whether they did
it or not. Of course, there's no dispute that Andrea
(18:44):
Yates killed her kids. After she did, she called the
police and said, you need to come over. I killed
the kids. And she called her husband, Honey, you need
to come home. I just killed the kids. She didn't
try to hide it because she believed what she did
was the right thing to do to save the children.
For Jesus, Jesus, so um, I don't think Andrews should
be walking around and I don't think if she ever
(19:04):
gets out that she should be put in charge of
a monetary school. Her delusion delusions that schizophrenics have, they
have in their whole life. So is the general public
safe from Andrea Yates? Worked she to be released, Yes,
as long as you're not a child, Because the rest
of Andrea's life, even with medication, she's still going to
(19:27):
believe that she's a bad mother, that she's a bad
influence on little children. The devil will get them unless
she sends them to heaven. And that's just the way
delusions are. And speaking of Andrea Yates, we wanted um
Candice along to elaborate more on this idea of the
postpartum defense because it's something that we've seen come up
more often in higher profile cases of mothers killing their children.
(19:50):
And um we also wanted to know how the psychiatric
defenses play a role as well, because once you you know,
and you throw mental illness into the mix, you know,
if someone is compelled because of schizophrenia, say to murder someone,
should they be um you know, should they be up
for say execution of some sort. I mean, it just
(20:14):
starts to pull in some pretty tricky questions for for
the criminal justice system. So this is what kinda still
long has to say about that we are seeing more
people use psychiatric defenses. But here's the big clue, and
and this is where my clinical background comes in. The
vast majority of people that are mentally ill do not
(20:39):
commit violent crimes when or murder in particular, when they do,
there is a clear, visible, longstanding history of mental illness
that is generally documented. People that suffer from schizop prenia,
(21:00):
it usually surfaces and they have their first psychotic break
or psychotic postpartum depression in this case, in their late
teens early twenties, and untreated it can grow. And so
generally we don't see teenage schizophrenics committing committing horrible crimes,
but we see schizophrenics in their late twenties and early thirties.
(21:23):
If they are going to be compelled to commit some
kind of horrible crime, and Andrey Yates isn't the only
one that did this kind of thing, then we generally
see that after they've been in and out of psych facilities,
there's a long documented paper trail of their illness. And
so if somebody decides they just don't want to be
a mom anymore that their two kids. We have another
(21:44):
South Carolina case last week of a woman that killed
her two kids in a lake. Um uh, And they go, oh,
I add a depression or you know, well, chances are
unless it's documented, and depression does on occasion lead mothers
to kill children and then themselves. We've we've even had
cases on on deadly women of mothers that did this. Um.
(22:08):
But psychosis is a whole different thing. So what I'm
saying is as a prosecutor, it's gonna be evey easy
to determine if the person's lying or not. For a
defense attorney, it will be easy to determine if they
actually do have a history of mental illness and and does.
I don't want anybody to misunderstand me. I don't think
people that are mentally ill that commit murders should be
(22:29):
out walking around. But they certainly shouldn't be in rison
in prison being beaten and abused and raped and mistreated
when it was their mental illness, which is an affliction.
It absolutely is an affliction, and and they should be
in a they should be in a maximum security psychiatric facility,
or at least they'll be able to get medication and
(22:49):
maybe won't be beaten and raped for the rest of
their life. So obviously, for someone like DeLong, who has
forty years of experience, when she sits down and talks
to these female killers, these convicted killers for the show
coming up on an investigation discovery, you know, there has
(23:10):
to be so she has to look at them so
differently than maybe you or I would, Molly. She has
to understand all of this background of potential mental illness
and the slippery slope that can happen sometimes for people
to end up, you know, from the good girl, if
you will, to all of a sudden the convicted criminal.
So it seems like she really takes a more empathetic
(23:32):
view of them. And perhaps even just by virtue of
her being a woman sitting down and talking to a woman,
there are certain shared experiences that might play into it.
So Candice talked to us a little bit about how
empathy can come into profiling and interviewing the women on
the show. Even though I may shake my head and
(23:53):
say to myself, there this doesn't make sense that such
a smart woman could be led by a man and
and and convinced by him to kill his wife. This woman,
this is a smart woman. Why would she do that?
You know? And uh, well, I can love the funny
thing ladies. So I do feel I do feel empathy.
(24:15):
And and in particular the woman in UM Australia UM
that served time for killing her father, when you hear
her whole story, you'll have empathy too. This is not
an evil woman. This is a woman that was led
to that was compelled to do an evil thing. Andrea Yates,
let's look at that for a minute. The probably the
(24:36):
most famous um postpartum depression psychosis case in the United States,
for sure, drowned all our children. It was about nine
years ago this summer. Drowned all our children one by one.
She was compelled to do that evil thing because she
of an untreated mental illness, and she was delusional and
(24:56):
she really believed she was sending her children to Jesus,
so the double wouldn't get them. I worked with people
that think like that as a nurse that schizophrenia. UM.
So here you've got this horrible, evil deed. And the
first prosecutor on the case wanted a needle in her arm,
when in fact she was compelled to do what she
did because of mental illness. So it was an evil deed.
(25:18):
But is she an evil person or I don't think so. Now.
The interesting thing was, as part of as part of
these interviews, Candice Long mentioned that there was this one
Australian case. There's one case that she profiles on the
show where she said sound talks to this Australian woman
who was convicted of murder, and she said it was
the most fascinating interview that she has done in forty
(25:41):
years of work profiling criminals. So we thought that this
would be the perfect way to end the podcast. Let
Candice um tease to this pretty pretty powerful interview from
what she has to say about it. Well, when you
see her story, she's thirty now. Um, she serves six
years in prison for solicitate solicitation of the murder of
(26:04):
her father, UM, who was murdered by her um uh
then um boyfriend when when they were I think, uh, seventeen.
But there is a uh catch. I suppose you might
say children that kill parents with rare exception, we do
(26:27):
have the Menendez brothers types in the world that that
would be known as a nihilistic killing. There was really
no good reason at all for those boys to do
what they did. Uh, they wanted the money. But with
rare exception, when children kill parents, or a child kills
a parent, um and and that child is, you know,
in their teens or adolescents, you can almost always look
(26:52):
into the background and you will find severe abuse, emotional, physical,
and and and frequently sexual as well. So by the
time the viewer understands what this what happened to this woman,
By the time she sat down with me, and at
this point she's been released from prison for several years, um,
(27:13):
you have a real clear understanding of of what her
her background was like and what led up to um
the murder. And she when I'm very proud of the
fact is she was so comfortable with me that I
don't want to tell you you You're just gonna have
to watch it. Uh. She was so comfortable with me
(27:35):
that she said some rather incredible things, things that I've
never seen anyone say on television before. And she's also
a very likable person. I liked her a lot. She's
not a natural born killer. She um uh found herself
in ongoing circumstances that all led to a situation. And uh,
(27:56):
it is what it is, and it's absolutely fascinating. So
that was the bulcome our interview with Candice DeLong and uh,
I didn't hear much from us this episode. But when
you've got someone's fascinating as Candice along on the other
end of the line, you want to learn as much
as you can about about these lady killers as we've
dubbed them. Yeah, let us know what you thought. I mean,
I think it was a pretty fascinating conversation and something
(28:18):
she said some things that I didn't expect her to
say either, So we'd love to hear your feedback as well.
Our email is mom Stuff at how stuff works dot
com and don't forget to tune into Facing Evil with
Candice de Long. It airs Thursday November Friday November at
ten pm each night on Investigation Discovery. It sounds like
perfect Thanksgiving viewing. Indeed, just some some light television viewing
(28:42):
about serial killers. So in the meantime, let's read some
listener mail. Now wait, wait, wait, Christen, before we get
into listener mail, jump too soon. We've got a pretty
cool announcement we need to go over about the app
that how stuff works to com. That's right, how self
Works dot Com has a brand new app that you
(29:04):
can download on your iPhone, you can access how stef
works dot com articles, videos, blogs, and of course the podcast.
You know, because if we haven't saturated your life enough,
we need to make sure we're there whenever you're on
the go, so we ever have to leave home without us.
So download that app. Check it out. I mean there
(29:25):
might be some I don't know, maybe some pictures of
you and me, Molly. I don't want to promise anything,
but you'll have to find up for yourself. So download
the app how So Fast dot COM's new iPhone app,
And now we can get back to listener mail. And
this email is from Laura. It's from the Do Men
and Women Cook Differently? Episode? And Laura writes, I'm a
(29:46):
mom to one boy and one girl. Early on, with
no prodding for me or their dad, I knows the
kids treating their gender neutral play kitchen differently. My daughter
cooked meals with the primary focus being to get food
in front of her multitude of dolls and babies. She
fed them and cleaned them and busted them for throwing
food on the floor. For her food was nurturing. My son, however,
(30:06):
cooked grandiose meals with multiple courses and plenty of spice
and flourish. Some of the combinations he came up with
for dishes sounded good enough to eat even if they
were rendered in plastic, even now in their tween years.
My daughter is at heart a parent and teacher, and
when she cooks for real these days, it's mom food.
My son, a scientists to the core, is interested in
the chemistry and flavor and presentation of each dish. So
(30:28):
very interesting to hear how those gender differences can take
hold early. All right, I've got one here from Diana,
and she is writing in response to our episode on
Chinese foot binding, and she makes courses. She's been doing
it for seventeen years, and she wanted to point out
that while yes, course at wearing and footbinding have some similarities,
(30:52):
and that they both are practices that many of us
find unusual today, she says the similarities stop there. She
says mostly wearing was often only a daytime practice, and
the course it would be removed during sleep and bathing,
allowing the body some rest instead of being constricted all
day long every day. Most courses were not were very
tightly at all, but a few women did enjoy cinching
(31:14):
it as small as possible. Before the Industrial Revolution, most
corsets were custom made to measure, and we're very comfortable
to wear with little health problems as a result. With
a properly custom crafted corset, women could achieve incredibly tiny
waists with little discomfort or ill health. Off the rat
corsets that were sold according to desired waste size alone
(31:34):
caused problems from many women like discomfort, shortness of breath,
and even some broken ribs. She says, courses are still
worn today, a great deal for both extreme tight lacing
and moderate wear by men and women, and as always,
custom is safer and more comfortable. So thank you Diana
the corset maker. That's fascinating. Didn't even realize that that
(31:55):
was a profession stone Perhaps the follow up podcast, So
keep your emails coming. It's mom Stuff at how stuff
works dot com. Or you can share your thoughts with
other listeners as well on our Facebook page, and then
you can follow us on Twitter. It's mom Stuff podcast.
And then finally we got a little blog and it's
called stuff I Never told you, and it's a how
(32:17):
stuff works dot com. For more on this and thousands
of other topics, is it how stuff works dot com?
Want more? How stuff Works. Check out our blogs on
the house stuff works dot com home page. Brought to
you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera. It's ready,
(32:39):
are you
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