August 30, 2017 • 52 mins
Negotiating a salary or promotion can be nerve-wracking. Here are all the mistakes we’ve made, so you don’t have to.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Emily, and this is and you're listening
to Steph. Mom never told you today. We are psyched.
I always say that, but we are super psyched to
tackle a topic that I am freakishly into, and that
(00:27):
is negotiation a k a. Negotiating your salary in particular. Obviously,
there are lots of ways to negotiate and lots of
things to negotiate that we always are negotiating in life,
but today we want to talk through some of the
ways in which some of the mistakes actually that women
in particular can fall into when experiencing or engaging in
(00:49):
salary negotiation. And this is a topic that I've been
obsessed with for years now. Having been a political operative
like you be, I feel like one of the prerequisites
for being in the campaign world is being very comfortable
bouncing from one job to the next, definitely, because there's
just so much career mobility, which freaks some people out
(01:10):
but also becomes a skill set in and of itself
landing jobs, negotiating salaries, different contractual arrangements, etcetera. So I
became very quickly interested in the topic, and then in
launching bust up, really obsessed with how negotiation really does
differ for women and versus men, for those who present
as women versus men. The societal sort of assumptions that
(01:33):
are coming to the table on this topic are really
really different. And so when Britain and I were talking
about putting this together, we thought, oh, my gosh, negotiation
is too big of a topic. How are we going
to focus on one episode on everything there is out
there about negotiation? And we said, well, here are all
the mistakes I've ever made. Yeah, and for me, especially
the long list, and even that that narrowing alone is
(01:56):
still going to make this probably a long episode. But
we figure, why don't we tackle just some of the
major trouble spots, because you know, there's a ton of
negotiation information out there, But for today's episode, we want
to focus on the state of women in negotiation in
American particular, but in in and some of the mistakes
to avoid some of those red flags to watch out for.
(02:19):
But first, we want to acknowledge that the old adage
that women don't negotiate, women don't ask is no longer
that accurate. So you've probably heard over and over again
that men negotiate much more often than women and still
in many circumstances. That is true when it comes to
(02:41):
new job offers. You know, women or men who are
in the interview process and are given a job opportunity
or a job offer, men are still much more likely
to negotiate than women. In fact, um Hannah Riley Bowles
rights in the Harvard Business Review that research shows, uh what.
In one study recently that graduating MBA students, half of
(03:03):
the men had negotiated their job offer, as compared to
only one eighth of the women. So the new job
offers are still overwhelmingly negotiated by men and not so
negotiated by women. But when it comes to asking for
a raise or a promotion within the confines of an
existing organization, women are asking. I believed for a long
(03:24):
time that it's just that women aren't asking, but they are.
They are, And unfortunately, in that same breath that research
found that this is the headline from Fortune magazine by
Laura Cone. Women ask for raises as much as men do,
but get them less often. So. The University of Warwick,
the Cast Business School in London there found that women
(03:46):
were twenty five percent less likely than men to get
a hike and pay when they asked for it. That's
so depressing. It is. It's depressing to be because even
when so one, I think we are taught to victim
blame at a kind of way and say, oh, they're
not asking for it, that's why I'm not getting it,
which is clearly not true. But when we do ask,
we don't get it, and that's so frustrating to me. UM.
(04:08):
I it's funny that you mentioned before that being a
political operative kind of kind of is what got you
fired off about negotiation. That was such a challenge for me.
I've I've had a million different gigs in my life,
short term, long term, UM, in politics, and I dread
negotiation in such a serious and intense way. UM, for
(04:30):
the longest time. This is so embarrassing. I didn't even
know you were kind of even I'm embarrassing this. I
didn't even know you were supposed to do or allowed
to do that. UM. That's the first time that someone
was like, oh, did you ask for more money? I
thought what I didn't. It did not occur to me. UM.
And I had a really is that situation where I
was offered what would have been a dream job, and
(04:53):
when I got the offer letter, it was barely more
than I was making a job and so and so
I didn't know that you that that was a jumping
off points. So I just said, oh, I can't take it,
and then I said no, and I never I And
it wasn't until years later that I thought, oh, wait,
that was a jumping off point. I asked more, I
would have been fine. So, yeah, this is an important topic.
(05:16):
This is such an important topic. And I hope this framework.
Um you know, sometimes people say, oh, you're so negative.
I hope you all know that sometimes it's okay to
be negative, Like we're going to talk about this in
a framework that says, here are some mistakes, don't make them,
you know, here are the mistakes we've made. You don't
have to. And I actually feel very positively about negotiation,
(05:37):
and I know for a fact that makes me a freak. Okay,
so do you know that if you want to geek
out about negotiation with me, y'all are welcome to any time.
But the population feels the same way you dodge, which uncomfortable.
It's combative, it's a mine field. I'm like, bring it on.
I recently, um, Brad and I are closing on a
house and I don't. It's like still a work in progress.
(06:00):
But I was in charge of negotiations brads and charge
of renovation, and and I was We just met with
the agent who's brokering the deal, and he told us
it was the hottest open house in the entire metro
area the weekend that we got it. And when we
were asking him, like, why did you go with us
because there were other people we were in a bidding war,
(06:22):
where he said, the way you spoke on the phone
to me, Emily gave me really good vibes. And I
like to work with people who I feel that way with.
And you know, I think you guys deserve this house
because of it. And I was in my first time
homebuyers trying to do a major flip, you know, and
then we were competing with major flipping like home flipping company,
and we got the bid. So the way you talk
(06:44):
to people, the way you handle a negotiation situation truly matters.
And while the data can be seen as depressing, get
put on your psychology hats, y'all, because if you can
hack into the psychological factors that go into negotiation, you
can set yourself up to capitalize on me and it's
not a it's not a fair world out there. Everybody's
(07:05):
experience is very different with this. But I just want
you to know that it is a skill you can
develop and get better at. It's not like a oh,
I'm sucky at this, I'll never get better like it
is something you can get much better at. That's part
of one of the reasons why I appreciate that we
frame this episode in terms of what not to do. UM.
I am someone who, as I said, I hate negotiation.
It's so many things that are not so many things
(07:26):
I don't seek out UM, And it's good to feel
as though it's not just I'm doomed to be bad
at it forever, that you can get better. It's a
skill you can grease the wheels you can it's like
a muscle. You can flex it exact exercise. And and
you know, obviously we shouldn't have to, as women contort
ourselves to get treated fairly. We shouldn't have to, uh,
(07:51):
you know, speak differently, smile differently, all the things were
about to share with you. We shouldn't have to adapt
to our biased world. And that goes without saying, but
I'm gonna say it anyway. That women should not have
to do verbal jiu jitsu to be treated fairly and
equally like men are in this equation. But here's the reality, y'all.
We live in a biased world full of human beings
(08:11):
who bring their own bias to the table when when
exchanging ideas. So if you know the unconscious bias that
goes into this, I actually find it empowering because then
you can be strategic with the choices you are making.
We're not saying this is just like when we were
talking about policing women's speech. This is not to say
(08:31):
that here's the right way to talk or here's the
wrong way to talk. We're not here to say here's
the right way to negotiate, here's the wrong way to negotiate.
We're here to give you some tools to have in
your toolbox and to give it a shot and see
how it works for you. And options. It's always good
to have options, Yes, you know, so shall we dive in. Okay,
there's this first mistake that is literally the first time
(08:52):
that salary typically comes up for people in the job market,
and everyone freaks out about it. And I get this
question all the time at boss Stop, which is, how
do I deal with the blank spot on the form
that application you might be filling out through monster dot
com or whatever that asks about salary requirements or salary history.
(09:13):
How do I deal with that? Have you ever seen this?
I've seen it so many times. I always freak out,
you know, I never know what to put. Yeah, And
that's the common question, is like, what the hell do
I put there? That doesn't put me in a weak position.
And here's the reality. If you were to walk into
Nordstrums and say, or let's let's actually do a store.
We actually walk in. If you were to walk into
(09:35):
Target and say, oh my god, I love those shoes,
bring them to the cash register and want to take
them home with you, you wouldn't expect them at the
cash register to say, well, how much would you pay
for these shoes? That would be ridiculous. When you're shopping
for a job, the same reality is true. It has
become normal for them to ask you, the job seeker,
(09:58):
what you think you should make when in reality, they're
hiring for I don't know, a marketing associate. How much
do they value the work of a marketing associate? It's
on them to name their price. It's that's so absurd
to me because it puts the onus on you to
tell them what you think your value is, and really
it should be about what you as if you're a
(10:20):
marketing associate, you want to know what number of your
company puts that. Yeah, that should be on them to
tell you. And in fact, many states agree with you
vehemently bridget and that they are outlining the use of
that question. They're outlining the common practice of employers asking
people what their salary history is or what their salary
requirements are. Because of that reason, and because by doing so,
(10:43):
what we're actually all doing is perpetuating historical wage inequality. Definitely,
so that we know that women still get paid less,
especially moms. As we discovered in the Mommy Tax episode,
moms get discriminated against tremendously for doing the same work.
So if we want equal pay for equal work, and
we're not willing to pass a law that actually mandates that,
(11:04):
which we should, we should and has not happened, then
at least what we can do is make it harder
for people to to perpetuate those unconscious biases and those
waging equalities that already persist and already exists right. I
used to have a little bit of anxiety around that.
The last job that I had, the last full time
job that I had, I was making more money that
(11:25):
I've ever made in my life. I was so happy
about it, and in my mind I thought I saw
that as like the keys to the kingdom of like
now that I made above a certain number, I can
never make I'll never never mess on that again. And
I totally had had a wrong understanding of of that.
So I was really excited to be like, well, I
make I made this at my last job because I
(11:46):
thought it that I would always be paid more than that,
and that's not how it works. Well to be fair, right,
that's not right. That's not a guarantee, I would say,
Although that's not saying that you're making less now, is it.
It is not. But I want to also acknowledge this
that Massachusetts was the first state to pass a law
making that illegal. So it makes it illegal for the
employer to demand how a salary history and answer from you,
(12:10):
or to even ask about it in the interview process.
New York recently passed a law in that regard as well,
and um it's being brought up in other states like
California on the state legislature level. But I'm really thrilled
to be and I'm really proud of our d C
Representative Eleanor Holmes Norton here in d C. She actually
(12:30):
introduced a law in Congress, the United States Congress, to
ban it across the country, to ban employers from asking this.
And I'm also proud as an original from Connecticut, as
a Nutmeg Nutmegs stater that um the one and only
Representative Rosa de Lauo and New York States Jared Nadler
are co sponsors on this LEGISLAURI. So it should be
(12:52):
outlawed because it's BS and it's saying that you're worth
is determined by what some former employer I thought it
was it should work, not the way it should. I've
been really fascinated to see this sort of push happening,
and maybe it's happening in other industries too, but in
the progressive politics sphere, this push for demand, like people
are asking for employers to put right on the job description,
(13:14):
the salary and they should. I see a lot of
pushback when, um, they don't always say that. At a
certain point, I get that you want to keep it
kind of open. But you almost don't want to waste
someone's time if if the if the range that you're
offering is now that they need exactly, And that's that's
why the first mistake for negotiating is to name your salaries.
(13:38):
To list the number first. You want to set it
up knowing that the employer has interest in your naming
your salary first. You want to make sure that they
are the ones to name the number first. And like
you were just saying that you're not wasting each other's time,
So here's how to do it. This is a sort
of like a stop, drop and roll um component of negotiation.
(13:59):
So here's how to decline answering that question before a
solid offer has been made. So say you're interviewing, you
love the job, you're you desperately want them to make
an offer to you, and they ask you in the
interview sub bridget what are your salary requirements? And you're like,
I know, naming a number right now is the worst
possible thing I can do. But how do I get
(14:20):
out of this without being a jerk? Well, here's here's
how to do it. And this is from this is
advice from one of my board members. A Lynn Powell,
who is the She works in Higher ed in the
Career Center. She used to be at Georgetown. Now she's
at U m D. And she's amazing. She said. She
told me one to break it down to the three
step strategy. One flatly and pleasantly as possible, deny answering
(14:43):
the question. So you might say, you know what, it's
too too early, bridget to talk numbers right now. It's
a good way to get out of it. You know,
you can just say, you know, I'm not ready to
talk about numbers just yet, or I'm not comfortable, you know,
talking numbers right now. And then step two is a
swage that under lying anxiety of are you just wasting
my time here? So you might say something like, I'm
(15:06):
sure if everything else falls into place, salary won't be
an issue. Oh that's a great that's such a like
diplomatic way to get out of which is what I
love about this. It's really linguistics and psychology coming together.
So you you so just to review step one, it's
too early to talk numbers. But step two, I'm sure
everything else will work out, and I'm sure we can
(15:26):
find an amenable agreement for both of us. If this
does move forward, and then step three is get off
the topic, roll out of this thing by asking an
open ended question. So it might be you know, Bridge,
it's too early to talk numbers. I'm sure if everything
else falls into place, salary won't be an issue. Can
you tell me more about what you're looking for in
(15:47):
this position or can you tell me more about what
success would look like in the first six months? Can
you tell me more about how promotion and advancement works
in your company? Now? So make an open ended question
that will get them talking again but moves you off
of the topic. I like that so much. That's a
great way to handle it. And it doesn't have to
(16:08):
be I would say this as an anxious person. Doesn't
has to be a heavy anxious thing where you're like,
oh god, oh god, oh god. It is, but you
can use these tools to sort of navigate it so
it's not doesn't feel so heavy and anxiety provoke it.
And you know what it comes down to, its preparation.
If you want to feel less anxious doing that, say
those three sentences over and over again before your interview,
(16:29):
and you will have it bound pad you'll practice it.
It's kind of like memorizing some lines and you just
need those two lines, really and then you can come
up with whatever question makes sense. But practice, stop, drop
and roll. You've got to get off the topic. You know,
flatly refused as pleasantly as possible. Make sure they feel
like you're not wasting their time. Reassure them a little
bit that you're there because you're really taking this seriously,
(16:51):
and then get off the topic of the time. Unless
there are a total socio fath on the other end
of the conversation, they're not going to drag you back
to the topic over and over and over again. But
if they do, rinse and repeat, just use that strategy
to do everything in your power to refuse to answer
the question. And you know who does that brilliantly talking
heads on cable TV news. Oh yes, that's something we
(17:14):
as someone who took training to become the head and
a pundant, they're all about it. If you have if
you get stuck out a question you don't want to answer,
I can't answer it. Just gotta pivot ask or answer
a completely different questions. They might not know the difference exactly,
so pivot away. Do not let them force you to
answer it. And the same is true for the form.
If you have a form to fill out and you
cannot submit your application until you fill out that blanking
(17:37):
cursor box about salary requirements, put zeros in there, put
negotiable in there, put tv D, put you know, open
to conversation. Do not answer that question because the onus
falls on them to tell you what they're willing to
pay for the position. And you don't want to cut
yourself short. You don't want to low ball yourself, so
you know, you obviously also don't want to just be
(17:59):
getting jobs that way. So if you're only applying for
jobs through Monster dot Com, we've had a bigger problem
to solve there. So so just remember you do not
actually have to answer that question. Many states and maybe
our country will deem that illegal soon anyway, So to
that little time period of thirty seconds of awkward is
going to be worth ten tho dollars more year totally. U.
(18:21):
I'm happy to see that legislation is catching up with
this issue and we're getting somewhere on it, because I think, yeah,
this this, I just have made so many negotiation mistakes
and I'm thrilled to see other people not making make
those same mistakes. UM. I still remember the first time
I ever negotiated for a job, and the only reason
(18:41):
I did is because a friend of mine, we had
very we had very comparable education and skill level backgrounds,
we had been on the same campaign. We were both
hired at the same place, and he was offered ten
tho dollars more than me, and I thought I am
just as qualified as him. There's no reason I should
be making that much us And if if he had
not told me that information, I would have never asked
(19:03):
for more. And it was because I didn't know how
much how much they valued the position that is being
hired for. I didn't have any sense of that, um,
and so that's the only reason I did and I
got it. That's awesome, snaps to you, and that's an
argument for pay transparency to you and talking about your salary.
So let's take a quick break. When we come back,
we'll continue to talk through some of the common mistakes
(19:25):
that we can all avoid to get paid. To get
that money. Get your paper. We'll be right back after
a good break, and we're back. And another way that
I have tripped up in negotiation, and you were sharing
(19:45):
that you you had an experience like this as well.
Right is sending in my counter offer via email, And
that happened to me once because oftentimes when you get
an offer and the process of negotiation, as a reminder,
only begins once an offer has been made, so let's
keep that in mind. But those offers typically come in
(20:06):
over the phone, don't they, or maybe emails. More often.
I've heard that people get a phone call we'd love
to offer you the job, and you're like, great, Does
that mean you've accepted it right away? You know, you
want to be able to deliver that counter offer after
you've had a little bit of time to prepare um,
so you might want to say thank you so much
(20:28):
for this offer, express gratitude. I'm so excited about this,
as you can imagine, this is a big, big decision
that I want to take really seriously. So I'd love
until Friday to get back to you. Can we set
up a time to talk Friday afternoon? So then you
bought yourself some time. But in the past I've used
that time to write the world's most complex and very
many bullet pointed emails as my counter offer, to which
(20:52):
people are like, oh m, Gene, no, there are so
much like this, just like such a long run realists
in there. It just does not over. People don't like
getting laundry lists, like like a list of demands. Um,
I have done the same. I don't think I realized
it was something you shouldn't do until this very moment. Um.
I hate negotiations so much. If I can do it
over email, that somehow feels less awkward to me. Well,
(21:16):
it's so common though, it's completely a crutch, Like I
would much rather list what I feel like I need
in an email. Somehow that's easier for me than saying
it face to face over the phone. Well, it's more,
it feels more controlled. It feels like you have more
controlled But here's the fallacy behind that, y'all. When you
do not have body language, or at least when you're
using a phone call vocal tone on your side, you
(21:39):
can't actually adjust your tone, or you don't know if
the person on the other end of the phone is
having their worst possible day. You just you have less information,
and when you receive a very brief assertive email, you think,
oh my gosh, that person is a total nut job.
Or I can't even say the B word. I'm thinking
of Yeah, I mean, if you think about how it
plays on social media, so easy to misread things. You
(22:02):
think someone's being sarcastic, you think someone's mean or pushy
in an email. It's I'm sure I have come off
as different than I actually mean things an email because
I'm doing an email and it's it's a medium that
doesn't allow for expressions of vocal tone whatever. Um, So
it really isn't the medium to be negotiating. It is
a mindfield. You'll have too many exclamation marks, not enough
(22:24):
exclamation marks, You'll be seen as kurt or it's just
it's a real challenging way to be seen in a
negative light as assertive, and this is an assertive communication.
Asking for more is a very assertive thing to do.
And we all know that women who are seen as
more assertive are seen as less likable. So you have
to sort of counteract the assertiveness with pleasant tone and
(22:47):
body language. That's where that smile advice comes from, which
we'll talk through. So you know, knowing all that we're
going to talk more about, you know how to be
pleasant even though you're being assertive. But knowing that email
is such a h easily misconstrued medium. Just keep in
mind that your bullet pointed list is definitely an important
thing to have. You want to have a list of priorities,
(23:09):
but you want to daisy chain them. You want to
ask for one thing at a time. And that's why
a live conversation is so much easier to be a
two way dialogue, so you can respond to the yes
or to know that you're getting and not necessarily have.
You know, nobody wants to be on the receiving end
of a long list of demands. It makes you look
(23:29):
really high maintenance. And there was this story that went
viral in The New Yorker because it came out in
relative close proximity to Lean In, and everyone was sort
of reacting. The anti lean In sort of wave had
hit in full force. And the title of the articles
lean Out the Dangers for Women who negotiate, and it
(23:51):
was so hyperbolic. I really hated the point of this piece,
which was a very qualified and talented woman was offered
a higher job or a job in high education. She
counter offered via email, made a list of demands, and
the offer was revoked. That's just the biggest nightmare of
fear of everyone negotiating right to me, the conclusion that
(24:13):
they drew was an incorrect one. The conclusion was women
who negotiate, don't you know, don't get treated fairly, which
is true. But the conclusion that I think is more
productive is women who negotiate the email are much more
likely to be seen as pushy and not right for
the job anymore. So that's what happened to me. I
sent out a counter offer via email, and I got
(24:34):
the job offer revoked. And two things I learned from that. One,
this is not an employer I actually want to work
for it. It actually wasn't. Bridget knows because she ended
up working for them. And too, you know, don't do
yourself a disservice of trying to counter offer via email.
It might feel safer to you, but you're way better
off practicing with a partner in real time, asking for
(24:55):
that phone call a couple of days later, going on
with your bullet point list. But that's a list that
you work from in real time through a conversation. Because
out of curiosity, um, because I've asked my father, who
is my big negotiation coach, because he's very good at negotiation,
he's all he always says no one's ever going to
take away a job off or that rarely ever happens,
and it does, see it, What was the it's illegal
(25:16):
in some ways, what was the conversation around it when
it happened with you or they just did they just
say no, well, here's what it doesn't work. They were
being sketchy. They were hiring for a contract position, which
all my HR law folks listening can correct me here
if I get this completely wrong, because not completely wrong,
I know it's pretty right, but I'm not a lawyer.
When you're hiring for a contractor a non W two employee,
(25:38):
you are not allowed to tell them when to work
or how to work. You're allowed it's like a consulting
higher so you're allowed to say this is what we
need you to deliver on. But you're not allowed to
say you need to come into the office Monday through
Friday five. You know, it's very much illegal to treat
your contractors like full time employee. So, first of all,
if you're in that situation, so many women are, so
(26:00):
many people are yeah, oh my gosh. Yeah, it's something
that employers are violating all the time. So especially with
um our episode on the gig economy. Gig economy workers
are contractors, so you are allowed to dictate your own schedule.
That's the that's supposedly the benefit. If you're not, then
you've got a problem. So when they were hiring for
(26:23):
this position, they were hiring for a full time position,
and I assume that meant W two through the interview,
it became clear that we were talking about a contract
or position. When they called to make the offer, that's
what they were offering me. And I needed to gain
clarity and how much time they were going to compensate
me for, because it was not clear to me that, um,
they weren't going to treat me like a full time
(26:44):
staff member. They actually said, we need you to be
on call all the time. Sometimes things are fast, And
the way it was phrased was we're looking for people
who really care about these issues and really are devoted
to UH to making progress happen. And I was like,
that boils my blood. This is like the non private
industrial complex that exists in DC especially, So I bounced
(27:09):
back with my long ass bullet pointed email saying, you know,
what's the hourly rate that we're talking out here? How
many hours a week are you asking of me? Can
I work for someone else at the same time, because
it sounds like, you know, but you're hiring me as
a contractor. And it was clear to me that I
was very displeased with their offer, and clearly that came through,
and I was trying to be nice. So when I'm
(27:29):
trying to be nice to be email but doing something
very assertive, I'm talking like paragraphs after paragraphs after paragraphs,
they called me up and we're like, we've decided to
go in a different direction. So they took it from
email to calling you well, because correct me if I'm wrong.
HR Attorneys. But if people make a job offer and
then rescinded, they opened themselves up. Employers open themselves up
(27:52):
to liability. The liability meaning you might say you rescinded
this job offer because I am a woman, were differently
enabled or black or whatever. So they have to come
up with a sort of documented reason for the refusal.
So it's much easier if there's no paper trail. What's
funny is that I actually ended up working for I
(28:13):
basically took because I'm a terrible negotiator. I basically took
that exactly identical job and it was hell with hell
on Earth. I'm really glad I dodged that bullet. Definitely
me babysitting at the time, and I thought I was
never ever going to be employed ever again in a
in a stable way. And guess what I was, So
it was okay. The other thing to note on that
(28:34):
is when you were given a job offer, it's really
helpful to get that offer in writing. So one of
the other ways when you get that phone call you
asked to buy yourself some time, you try to create
a time for a live negotiation conversation asked when can
I see these details of the offer in written form?
Or when can I see the full offer package? Can
(28:55):
you tell me more about the benefits that are included
in this and can you provide this in writings? I
have time to look it over. It's a lot harder
for them to rescind an offer that's been delivered in writing.
So basically what we're saying is string them along until
you can get a paper trail essentially so that you
have some documentation. And that goes so into some of
the other topics that you've done around employment issues, like
(29:16):
coming out at work. It's a lot easier to have
an offer on hand before you reveal something about yourself
that might you know, make them if they're horrible, make
them change their mind, or just document it. Didn't coomy,
document the discussions and just writing yourself on them. Oh
can go a very long way, y'all. Remember that? Yes, um?
(29:41):
And then you know the same thing that you were
just talking about motherhood, you know, like being a little
bit choosing and intentional about when you reveal these things,
and that that's so sad for me. That's life is
not fair, and it's sad that we have to hold
our cards to our chest. But this is just a
way to here's how to do it. Yeah, I you
need to do it. You need to do it. I
(30:01):
like specializing in the tap dance, Like, here's how to
dance that tap dance because it's worth it, because the
world is not a cool place all the time, So
dance away because you are worth the effort of you know,
I don't want to say manipulating people, but manipulating people.
You know, you have to to watch out for yourself sometimes.
So when you're having that live conversation, how should women
(30:25):
go about navigating the mind field? That is like vocal
tone and body language and all that jazz. It can
be tough. Um. One tip is nervous. Don't be nervous
with your negotiation. I'm a again, I've said this a
hundred times. Hate negotiation would definitely be projecting nervousness, but
nervousness when you negotiate nervous it reads us anger. So
(30:46):
people don't aren't reading it as trepidation or you're anxious
in a situation that is a little awkward, people reading
us anger. And surprisingly no one really anger works for
men in negotiation. It does not work for women. And
so if you you know, if you come off as
seeming angry while you're negotiating in person or over the phone,
(31:07):
that is not going to work for you, even though
it works for men. Yeah, it's a really weird wrinkle
in the research around this. But what researchers found is
that compared to expressions of anger by men, which are
seen as passionate and he's just really worked up about this,
he really cares a lot. I can almost envision every
male politician ever pounding their fist on a podium somewhere
(31:27):
saying this is wrong, right. But they found that compared
to expressions of anger by men. Expressions of anger by
women are associated with less positive organizational outcomes, meaning they
won't see you as impassioned. They won't see your nervousness
as cute. They will see you as crazy or a
bee you know what I mean. I'll see you as
or I think they will see you as a potential
(31:50):
problem canon. Yeah, I imagine that with your situation in
that mystery organization that we were talking about before. Um,
they probably that probably read to them as this, this
is gonna be a nightmare employee. She's high maintenance, she
won't play ball. We're clearly looking for something someone that
is a team players, right, and so that probably worked
against you in that way, but for the best because
(32:12):
they sucked. Well, it's funny. Yes, I don't want to
trash anybody out there, but we didn't tell them. I've
got our DC friends are like trying to guess which
organization I'm happy to tell people. I just don't do
it on the air. Okay, cool, Um, let's see what
was I gonna say? Oh? Anger, So a lot of
(32:33):
the women I work with, even like my one on
one peep, So I'm preparing for negotiation when they get nervous.
Their faces dropped, and so they go like this deer
in the headlights look looks really stone faced. Sometimes like
the frown comes out, but it's not a frown because
they're angry. They're just scared, and it's a nerve wrecking conversation.
It's tense. So the research clearly points to a benefit
(32:56):
for women who are persistently pleasant. And it's complicated because
if you're smiling while receiving or delivering bad news, nobody
likes that. Well, I've got some constructive criticism for you know,
like nobody. But it's about being oriented towards problem solving
(33:18):
and community benefit. So women should go in instead of
being angry looking she'd going focused on I'm really I'm
down to like figure this out together. I'm not. I'm
not saying you should say like in the middle of
that phrase, y'all, but you get what I'm trying to
say here. You should go in ready to problem solve
and come to the table with your counter offer, but
(33:39):
be open to collaboration and coming to an agreement together.
I love that advice. I once saw a wonderful um
I wish I could remember her name, but a wonderful
speaker UM at Google, and she basically said that one
of the ways that she used, and she's a woman
of color, um, one of the ways that she used
being a woman of colors sort as a as a
(34:00):
negotiations benefit was by playing on traits that people associate
with a bit of color and kind of flipping them around.
So she says, if I'm coming off as assertive, it's
because I'm really excited to work on this with you.
If I'm coming off as um pushy, it's because I'm
so excited to problem solve this and I got through
this together and really like using the all of the
(34:22):
baggage that comes with being women who are negotiating and
talking and blah blah blah, using them to help her own.
Exactly what she's doing there is she's leading with her intent.
She's a huge part of the research on a sort
of communication in general for women, which is, if you're
about to pound the table, make sure you explain why first.
And the other thing is, you know, black women have
(34:44):
a twice as hard of a climb here because being
seen as the angry black woman is really it plays
on a media trope, right, It plays on this preconceived notion.
So just watch and practice with yourself in the mirror,
watch your facial expressions, and know what nervous looks like
for you. If you look angry, that is not going
(35:05):
to help your cause. Nervous can look like anger, it
can look like upset, it can look like, you know,
maybe you have resting, beeface all those things, or maybe
they're actually lowballing you, right, and they're angry, and that's there.
I mean, I yeah, not to say that you should
never be angry in these conversations, because if you are angry,
if you're being you know, if you're being lowballed or
(35:25):
not being you know, being offered something that's offensive, it's
a way to be angry. Righteous indignation makes sense here, y'all.
Clearly we are angry on this podcast a lot, and
I make no apologies for that. However, when I'm trying
to get you to give me a money, I'm going
to be pleasant and that means leading with gratitude, showing
appreciation at the top of every one of those conversations,
(35:46):
and then ending with I'm so excited to join this
great team. I think we're going to do a lot together,
you know, using we instead of I. So there's lots
of verbal, verbal and vernacular tips and tricks we could
throw in, but this would be a never ending podcast.
I think to avoiding the anger trap is a good
takeaway here. Should we take a break before we die quick? Okay,
we'll be right back after award from our great sponsors
(36:09):
who we love, who give us their money. Thank you,
and we're back and we are excited to talk through
some of these negotiation crosshairs, trip wires, mistakes, whatever, the
(36:30):
mind field, whatever, whatever you want to call it. Um. So,
one thing to note is that when it comes to
your salary, it's easy to think that just the money
that you're getting paid is all you have to negotiate,
but really everything is negotiable. According to the Bureau of
Labor Statistics, only about sevent of an employee's total compensation
is actually their salary. So think about all the different
(36:50):
things that that leaves on the table to to negotiate about.
Vacation for when K matching, reimbursements for travel and professional
development and conferences, UM wellness programs, commuter parts, all of that.
All those things are up up on the table to
be dealt with and negotiated around UM. And I remember
once I was supposed to be UM giving a lecture
(37:11):
at a university and they couldn't pay me. And I
was talking to a friend and I was like, oh,
it sucks. I really want to do this, but I
want to get paid. And she said, you know there
are other ways they can compensate you other than giving
you money. And she said, maybe there's someone who you
would like to be able to offer an invite to
this conference to go to for free. Can they offer
you a couple of comp tickets to give to people
(37:31):
that would benefit And I thought, oh, yeah, there are
so many other ways to get compensated for things that
aren't just money. UM. So keeping that in mind is
really important, and knowing your own priority list, so when
you prepare for that counter offer, you know you've got
the bullet pointed list. Keep in mind what your first
priority is. And I always say, like, if the money
is not as good as it can be, like find
(37:53):
out you know, so counter offer with whatever your number
one priority is. But if you get an offer that
is so incredibly high paid that you're you can't fathom
asking for more on that front, or let's say you're
in a government job where the g S scale is
dictating your salary um, there are lots of other considerations
(38:13):
that you can push back on, and so a flexibility
is important to you. Be very crystal clear about what
you're asking for. Don't lead with what you're complaining about
or worried about. Lead with what you want because it
has has that positive like starting with a positive, and
nobody can actually tell you what you want except you.
So don't make the employer do the guesswork. Don't say
(38:34):
I'm really worried about the possibility of eight hour weeks here,
say I'd like to be compensated for overtime for anything
about fifty hours a week, you know, just or say
I'd like my hours to be capped so that on
Thursdays I can work from home or my commuter you know,
rail passes are paid for, or that I get a
free gym membership, whatever it might be. Yeah, and I
should we should say that this is really only for
(38:56):
full time W two employees and stuff doesn't fly when
you're contractor right, well, that's where the benefits packages nil
or no, you know, not applicable. However, I would say,
being a professional speaker, getting a speaker fee as a
contractor employee. So that's that's I mean, your example was
perfect by saying there are still ways to be compensated
additionally beyond salary, even if you are a contracted employee,
(39:20):
a big economy worker. Sweet. Well, here's one other mistake
I see a lot of women making. And this one's
a controversial one. Like most things, I hold strong opinions
on it. But but here, tell me what y'all think.
I think another mistake is to say, and if someone
raises their hand every time I give a workshop on
(39:41):
negotiation and says this, listen, negotiation is not applicable in
my field, and they go on to say I work
in the sciences where all of my research funding is
grant based, or I work in education and all of
our salaries are fixed and saying I can't negotiate, this
(40:01):
doesn't apply to me, and sort of throwing up your
hands and saying it's not fair. And I find that
to be self defeating for obvious reasons. I think, because
you're not going to negotiate if you think you can't negotiate.
But I also want to push back and say, do
not expect your employer to roll out the red carpet
for you when it comes to negotiation. I know that
sounds harsh, but you, as the individual applying for the job,
(40:24):
have to often more often than not, initiate the negotiation conversation, right, Um,
I'm definitely I'm one of those people that would raise
my hand in that in that scenario and ask that. Um.
I think I've mentioned on the show before that I
got my start professionally as a teacher, and when you're
a teacher, your salary is like there is no room.
(40:45):
I mean, I don't know, I don't know how I
would have negotiated this because there wasn't mean to negotiate.
Your salary was totally based on your educational history. So
you get a piece of paper that says, if you
have a B A, your salary is this. If you
have an M A, your salary is this, and that
like there's not an Okay, Well, let me give you
a counter example, if I may do it. Um. So,
(41:07):
my friend Amanda was working in I think it was
like an NGO organization that uh were worked off of
the g S pay scale, which I think stands for
government scale or government salary something like that, whereby they
normalize exactly who gets paid for what, similarly to your example.
But what she realized in looking much closer at the
(41:29):
g S scale because oftentimes people aren't really reading that
fine print and then you get busy doing your job
instead of doing the job of getting the job or
making sure that they're paying you properly for the job.
All that meta work, uh, And what she found when
she looked into it is that she was actually doing
the work of someone on two rungs up that scale.
So she went back to them and said, Hey, we
(41:52):
need to talk about my compensation. She initiated an internal
negotiation by going to HR and saying, hey, I'd love
to find time to talk about my future at the company,
you know, And she positioned it that way, I'd love
to talk about and get your feedback at how things
are going and share with you some of the things
that I'm considering moving forward. Again, a bold assertive move,
(42:12):
but it's the way to initiate a negotiation internally. In
the negotiation, she laid out a very clear case for
why she was being compensated two rungs below the work
she was actually doing, and they agreed with her. It
was like irrefutable the way that that phrasing connected to
the work she was doing, and she got paid significantly
more than she had been previously. That's amazing. And the
same thing can be said about your educational background. So
(42:35):
I don't have a master's degree, but I did a fellowship,
and here's how that fellowship should be compensated comparably. I mean,
I I'm not gonna I think people should try it.
I would be sure if you try. If you're a
teacher and you tried this and it worked, please let me.
I'm a little differ. You're rightfully dubious. But here's the
thing I would say, Okay, well, if you're not going
(42:57):
to see my education, my additional education, or my additional
experience for my additional training in the same exact light
as a master's degree, at least we could talk about
compensation for travel or reimbursement for professional developments. To think
that when I was teaching, there did seem to be
there were some other professors who, because they had families
or blah blah blah, they were able to There must
(43:18):
have been some understanding at some phase in the negotiation
process where they said I won't work I won't teach
the classes that happened in the evening. And so I
wonder if maybe while they couldn't negotiate for salary because
it was just you know, either you have a master's scare,
you don't um if they said, well, I need to
be able to make it home by five on Monday, Wednesday, Friday.
(43:38):
So they just always as a as a single childless
heaven and I always get stuck with the worst schedule.
And I can't imagine that somewhere down the line someone
was not negotiating for that all negotiable. And I'm a
firm believer. And I know a lot of single women
who say I can't negotiate because my colleagues get to
negotiate because they have kids, or my colleagues get to
negotiate because of their special circumstances. You've got to make
(43:59):
the ace and you might not always be successful. I
get it, I get it, but you can it is negotiable.
You can make it a priority, and if they don't
meet you halfway, you can leave. You can negotiate with
someone else. Here's the thing. It is so important that
we learn how to initiate negotiation because overwhelming amounts of
research point to the fact that it's not it's not
(44:22):
that women aren't confident enough to go for a job
that they're not perfectly qualified for. It's that women, more
often than men, are more are more likely than men
to follow the rules. So a lot of times you
hear you know, men are so confident they'll apply for
a job before they meet a percent of the statistics,
and women won't apply for a job and telling me
(44:42):
percent it's about confidence. It's not about confidence. Women in
those studies do that they avoid of applying for jobs
they think are going to be a waste of their
time because they're trying to follow the rules. We could
have a whole episode around sort of work and women
in kind of good girl culture and wanting to be,
you know, rule follower and feeling feeling like you can't
(45:02):
break the rules because that's bad, and I'm here to
give you all permission to not take the rules. So seriously,
people assume that tiring is more formal of a process
than it actually is. Rules bend, use your human nature
and use human interaction to bend the rules in your favor.
And don't assume that everything is so fixed, because even
(45:23):
if they list this, you know, seventeen bullet points as
requirements for the job position or for the promotion. Explore
whether or not they are indeed required. So here's how
to initiate a negotiation conversation, even when it's not obvious.
Said Okay, here's your offer, and now's the time for
your counter offer, which percent of the time will never
really ever happen. One ask for the time to talk
(45:46):
about it. So ask for can I look this offer over?
Or can we talk about the future of my employment
at this company next Friday? Get on their schedule. Be
proactive about asking for time to talk about it. The
second is to ask straight up, is this negotiable? Can
we talk about this offtware? Is it? Is there some
flexibility here if you really don't know? If if they
(46:07):
sound like they needed yes or no answer right now,
you can ask them so now if it's negotiable. And finally,
when your counter offering and someone says I don't know,
I mean this is the offer, and you say, well,
can we talk about five K more a year and
they say not really, I'm not sure, you can always
say can you look into that for me? Yeah? And
again that's another kind of very constructive. Nice way to
(46:29):
phrase it where it's not a it's not negative, it's
not combative. It's not combative, it's inquisitive. I think that
actually makes you look like a like a good employee.
It's like, oh, this is someone who is interested in
in problem solving and finding solutions. Yeah, can you run
that up the flagpole for me? Can you check on
that for me? It's much harder for them to say no.
(46:51):
And I actually have heard from a friend who negotiated
for a huge increase in pay and the hiring managers thought,
this is not going to have and for you, I
really doubt that this increase is going to happen, And
she said consistently, do you mind looking into it? Can
you find out? And that even though the hiring employer
or the hiring manager wasn't empowered to give her or
(47:12):
sort of sanction to give her that much money, when
she went back and said, well, here's what this Canada
wants and I know it's way more than we're going
to give her, her boss said yes. So then she
came back and said you got it, And so she
got this huge increase in pay. So even if you
feel a little bit stuck you can always ask them
to look into it for you sort of really wrap
(47:33):
up this issue when it really comes down to, like
with most things, is that we need more systemic change.
People whold power on this issue should really be UM,
keeping an eye out for it, paying attend. If you're
a hiring manager, you should be paying attention to the
different rates that which women and men are asking for
different opportunities. UM. If you have the ability to, you know,
close the gap on this issue, use that power. UM.
(47:55):
And really I think manager should be driving this larger
cultural change to get to the place where we to be. Yeah.
And it's hard, right because I believe in self interest.
I believe that you know, people are selfish. And when
your job is to save the company money, or your
job as an HR professional is to keep the company
out of trouble, you're going to go to great lengths
to make it harder for people to negotiate. And I
(48:18):
understand why I run a business like I get that,
But I talk about negotiation, I have to pull teeth
to get my staffers to negotiate with me. So negotiating
with me must be very weird. I can helply imagine.
But you know, you have to be your own best
advocate in this, y'all, because until the world is a
much more fair place and pay is much more transparent,
(48:38):
you're the only one that can push back and be
in your corner and ask for more um and and
to use your best judgment when doing so, because no one,
no one can tell you what your priorities are. And
I guess the last thing I think is really worth
mentioning here is this advice that we hear a lot,
that women should always negotiate is advice that I think
(49:02):
should be pushed back on a little bit. And I'm
the biggest fan of negotiation. I think we should not
be afraid to negotiate. But I also think that women
know when um when pushing back is going to get
you in trouble. In a new paper in nb R,
three economists and management researchers found that advising women to
(49:24):
quote always negotiate might not be in their best interest.
It seems women already know when negotiations won't work out
in their favor, so they really, you know, sort of
push back on this blanket advice. It's not a one
size fit all solution. Keep in mind that two people
talking to people This is not an abnormal everyday thing.
You are talking to someone, you're trying to come to
(49:45):
an agreement, Use your best judgment and keep in mind
where they're coming from. Use empathy to your advantage in
this and and and proceed when you know in being
your corner, but also be empathic in doing so. Yeah,
and I think just remembering that these are tools in
the toolbox, and you know, if you're a good carpenter
or whatever, you know when you need a hammer or
(50:06):
when you need a nail or just having those tools
and knowing when to use them is key for for
understanding how this personally will imprint you. But don't be
the one who can't wield a hammer, because exactly so,
you have to be comfortable bringing different skills and strategies
to these equations. So don't avoid negotiation because you don't
know how to negotiate, or you don't you're just afraid
(50:27):
of negotiation. But use your best you know, you be
your best advocate, and apply the sort of strategy or
tool that you think will serve you best in that moment. Yeah,
good god, I could like talk about negotiation for seventeen
more hours, and in fact, I do over on my
website and you should check it out. And there's lass
of videos that I create on this topic, and we'll
be doing a lot more on this soon. Do you
(50:49):
want to negotiate with me right now? Not? Well, I
feel like every conversation we have is a bit of
a negotiation, not in a bad way, an enjoyable negotiation. Yeah,
we're constantly unpacking big ideas together, which is a kind
of negot It's just two people talking. It's too and
we're trying to come to conclusions together, mutually beneficial conclusion
that All right, y'all, give us your best and worst
(51:12):
negotiation stores. What mistakes did you make? I hope we're
not alone in this. I hope we're not the only
people who aren't perfectly raised to negotiate about your negotiation fails.
So send us a tweet at mom stuff podcast, or
shoot us the photo of you negotiating power before you negotiate.
I don't know, shows you happy dance after winning a
negotiation on on Instagram at stuff mom never told you?
(51:35):
Or if you have a power blazer or something like
your negotiation outfit. Oh yeah, what's your negotiation face look like?
I actually have a photo on my Instagram, um met
a moment here for the podcast. I have a photo
on Instagram of me and Brad the Boot at a
gas station right after I negotiated this deal with how
Stuff Works, and I have the biggest smile on my face.
(51:58):
We were in the middle of a road trip it
and I made this thing happen out of like a
gas station in the middle of nowhere in Kansas. And
if you want to check out what a fresh negotiation
face looks like, you can find it on my personal Insta.
But yeah, send us tabs on your Insta when you
negotiate before or after, proferably not during. Yeah, be bad
(52:20):
like like negotiations sel be people are like wrap it up,
Emily and and as always you can send that's a
good old fashioned email about your negotiation tips and tricks
at mom stuff at hell Stuff Works dot com.
Hey, this is Emily, and this is and you're listening
to Steph. Mom never told you today. We are psyched.
I always say that, but we are super psyched to
tackle a topic that I am freakishly into, and that
(00:27):
is negotiation a k a. Negotiating your salary in particular. Obviously,
there are lots of ways to negotiate and lots of
things to negotiate that we always are negotiating in life,
but today we want to talk through some of the
ways in which some of the mistakes actually that women
in particular can fall into when experiencing or engaging in
(00:49):
salary negotiation. And this is a topic that I've been
obsessed with for years now. Having been a political operative
like you be, I feel like one of the prerequisites
for being in the campaign world is being very comfortable
bouncing from one job to the next, definitely, because there's
just so much career mobility, which freaks some people out
(01:10):
but also becomes a skill set in and of itself
landing jobs, negotiating salaries, different contractual arrangements, etcetera. So I
became very quickly interested in the topic, and then in
launching bust up, really obsessed with how negotiation really does
differ for women and versus men, for those who present
as women versus men. The societal sort of assumptions that
(01:33):
are coming to the table on this topic are really
really different. And so when Britain and I were talking
about putting this together, we thought, oh, my gosh, negotiation
is too big of a topic. How are we going
to focus on one episode on everything there is out
there about negotiation? And we said, well, here are all
the mistakes I've ever made. Yeah, and for me, especially
the long list, and even that that narrowing alone is
(01:56):
still going to make this probably a long episode. But
we figure, why don't we tackle just some of the
major trouble spots, because you know, there's a ton of
negotiation information out there, But for today's episode, we want
to focus on the state of women in negotiation in
American particular, but in in and some of the mistakes
to avoid some of those red flags to watch out for.
(02:19):
But first, we want to acknowledge that the old adage
that women don't negotiate, women don't ask is no longer
that accurate. So you've probably heard over and over again
that men negotiate much more often than women and still
in many circumstances. That is true when it comes to
(02:41):
new job offers. You know, women or men who are
in the interview process and are given a job opportunity
or a job offer, men are still much more likely
to negotiate than women. In fact, um Hannah Riley Bowles
rights in the Harvard Business Review that research shows, uh what.
In one study recently that graduating MBA students, half of
(03:03):
the men had negotiated their job offer, as compared to
only one eighth of the women. So the new job
offers are still overwhelmingly negotiated by men and not so
negotiated by women. But when it comes to asking for
a raise or a promotion within the confines of an
existing organization, women are asking. I believed for a long
(03:24):
time that it's just that women aren't asking, but they are.
They are, And unfortunately, in that same breath that research
found that this is the headline from Fortune magazine by
Laura Cone. Women ask for raises as much as men do,
but get them less often. So. The University of Warwick,
the Cast Business School in London there found that women
(03:46):
were twenty five percent less likely than men to get
a hike and pay when they asked for it. That's
so depressing. It is. It's depressing to be because even
when so one, I think we are taught to victim
blame at a kind of way and say, oh, they're
not asking for it, that's why I'm not getting it,
which is clearly not true. But when we do ask,
we don't get it, and that's so frustrating to me. UM.
(04:08):
I it's funny that you mentioned before that being a
political operative kind of kind of is what got you
fired off about negotiation. That was such a challenge for me.
I've I've had a million different gigs in my life,
short term, long term, UM, in politics, and I dread
negotiation in such a serious and intense way. UM, for
(04:30):
the longest time. This is so embarrassing. I didn't even
know you were kind of even I'm embarrassing this. I
didn't even know you were supposed to do or allowed
to do that. UM. That's the first time that someone
was like, oh, did you ask for more money? I
thought what I didn't. It did not occur to me. UM.
And I had a really is that situation where I
was offered what would have been a dream job, and
(04:53):
when I got the offer letter, it was barely more
than I was making a job and so and so
I didn't know that you that that was a jumping
off points. So I just said, oh, I can't take it,
and then I said no, and I never I And
it wasn't until years later that I thought, oh, wait,
that was a jumping off point. I asked more, I
would have been fine. So, yeah, this is an important topic.
(05:16):
This is such an important topic. And I hope this framework.
Um you know, sometimes people say, oh, you're so negative.
I hope you all know that sometimes it's okay to
be negative, Like we're going to talk about this in
a framework that says, here are some mistakes, don't make them,
you know, here are the mistakes we've made. You don't
have to. And I actually feel very positively about negotiation,
(05:37):
and I know for a fact that makes me a freak. Okay,
so do you know that if you want to geek
out about negotiation with me, y'all are welcome to any time.
But the population feels the same way you dodge, which uncomfortable.
It's combative, it's a mine field. I'm like, bring it on.
I recently, um, Brad and I are closing on a
house and I don't. It's like still a work in progress.
(06:00):
But I was in charge of negotiations brads and charge
of renovation, and and I was We just met with
the agent who's brokering the deal, and he told us
it was the hottest open house in the entire metro
area the weekend that we got it. And when we
were asking him, like, why did you go with us
because there were other people we were in a bidding war,
(06:22):
where he said, the way you spoke on the phone
to me, Emily gave me really good vibes. And I
like to work with people who I feel that way with.
And you know, I think you guys deserve this house
because of it. And I was in my first time
homebuyers trying to do a major flip, you know, and
then we were competing with major flipping like home flipping company,
and we got the bid. So the way you talk
(06:44):
to people, the way you handle a negotiation situation truly matters.
And while the data can be seen as depressing, get
put on your psychology hats, y'all, because if you can
hack into the psychological factors that go into negotiation, you
can set yourself up to capitalize on me and it's
not a it's not a fair world out there. Everybody's
(07:05):
experience is very different with this. But I just want
you to know that it is a skill you can
develop and get better at. It's not like a oh,
I'm sucky at this, I'll never get better like it
is something you can get much better at. That's part
of one of the reasons why I appreciate that we
frame this episode in terms of what not to do. UM.
I am someone who, as I said, I hate negotiation.
It's so many things that are not so many things
(07:26):
I don't seek out UM, And it's good to feel
as though it's not just I'm doomed to be bad
at it forever, that you can get better. It's a
skill you can grease the wheels you can it's like
a muscle. You can flex it exact exercise. And and
you know, obviously we shouldn't have to, as women contort
ourselves to get treated fairly. We shouldn't have to, uh,
(07:51):
you know, speak differently, smile differently, all the things were
about to share with you. We shouldn't have to adapt
to our biased world. And that goes without saying, but
I'm gonna say it anyway. That women should not have
to do verbal jiu jitsu to be treated fairly and
equally like men are in this equation. But here's the reality, y'all.
We live in a biased world full of human beings
(08:11):
who bring their own bias to the table when when
exchanging ideas. So if you know the unconscious bias that
goes into this, I actually find it empowering because then
you can be strategic with the choices you are making.
We're not saying this is just like when we were
talking about policing women's speech. This is not to say
(08:31):
that here's the right way to talk or here's the
wrong way to talk. We're not here to say here's
the right way to negotiate, here's the wrong way to negotiate.
We're here to give you some tools to have in
your toolbox and to give it a shot and see
how it works for you. And options. It's always good
to have options, Yes, you know, so shall we dive in. Okay,
there's this first mistake that is literally the first time
(08:52):
that salary typically comes up for people in the job market,
and everyone freaks out about it. And I get this
question all the time at boss Stop, which is, how
do I deal with the blank spot on the form
that application you might be filling out through monster dot
com or whatever that asks about salary requirements or salary history.
(09:13):
How do I deal with that? Have you ever seen this?
I've seen it so many times. I always freak out,
you know, I never know what to put. Yeah, And
that's the common question, is like, what the hell do
I put there? That doesn't put me in a weak position.
And here's the reality. If you were to walk into
Nordstrums and say, or let's let's actually do a store.
We actually walk in. If you were to walk into
(09:35):
Target and say, oh my god, I love those shoes,
bring them to the cash register and want to take
them home with you, you wouldn't expect them at the
cash register to say, well, how much would you pay
for these shoes? That would be ridiculous. When you're shopping
for a job, the same reality is true. It has
become normal for them to ask you, the job seeker,
(09:58):
what you think you should make when in reality, they're
hiring for I don't know, a marketing associate. How much
do they value the work of a marketing associate? It's
on them to name their price. It's that's so absurd
to me because it puts the onus on you to
tell them what you think your value is, and really
it should be about what you as if you're a
(10:20):
marketing associate, you want to know what number of your
company puts that. Yeah, that should be on them to
tell you. And in fact, many states agree with you
vehemently bridget and that they are outlining the use of
that question. They're outlining the common practice of employers asking
people what their salary history is or what their salary
requirements are. Because of that reason, and because by doing so,
(10:43):
what we're actually all doing is perpetuating historical wage inequality. Definitely,
so that we know that women still get paid less,
especially moms. As we discovered in the Mommy Tax episode,
moms get discriminated against tremendously for doing the same work.
So if we want equal pay for equal work, and
we're not willing to pass a law that actually mandates that,
(11:04):
which we should, we should and has not happened, then
at least what we can do is make it harder
for people to to perpetuate those unconscious biases and those
waging equalities that already persist and already exists right. I
used to have a little bit of anxiety around that.
The last job that I had, the last full time
job that I had, I was making more money that
(11:25):
I've ever made in my life. I was so happy
about it, and in my mind I thought I saw
that as like the keys to the kingdom of like
now that I made above a certain number, I can
never make I'll never never mess on that again. And
I totally had had a wrong understanding of of that.
So I was really excited to be like, well, I
make I made this at my last job because I
(11:46):
thought it that I would always be paid more than that,
and that's not how it works. Well to be fair, right,
that's not right. That's not a guarantee, I would say,
Although that's not saying that you're making less now, is it.
It is not. But I want to also acknowledge this
that Massachusetts was the first state to pass a law
making that illegal. So it makes it illegal for the
employer to demand how a salary history and answer from you,
(12:10):
or to even ask about it in the interview process.
New York recently passed a law in that regard as well,
and um it's being brought up in other states like
California on the state legislature level. But I'm really thrilled
to be and I'm really proud of our d C
Representative Eleanor Holmes Norton here in d C. She actually
(12:30):
introduced a law in Congress, the United States Congress, to
ban it across the country, to ban employers from asking this.
And I'm also proud as an original from Connecticut, as
a Nutmeg Nutmegs stater that um the one and only
Representative Rosa de Lauo and New York States Jared Nadler
are co sponsors on this LEGISLAURI. So it should be
(12:52):
outlawed because it's BS and it's saying that you're worth
is determined by what some former employer I thought it
was it should work, not the way it should. I've
been really fascinated to see this sort of push happening,
and maybe it's happening in other industries too, but in
the progressive politics sphere, this push for demand, like people
are asking for employers to put right on the job description,
(13:14):
the salary and they should. I see a lot of
pushback when, um, they don't always say that. At a
certain point, I get that you want to keep it
kind of open. But you almost don't want to waste
someone's time if if the if the range that you're
offering is now that they need exactly, And that's that's
why the first mistake for negotiating is to name your salaries.
(13:38):
To list the number first. You want to set it
up knowing that the employer has interest in your naming
your salary first. You want to make sure that they
are the ones to name the number first. And like
you were just saying that you're not wasting each other's time,
So here's how to do it. This is a sort
of like a stop, drop and roll um component of negotiation.
(13:59):
So here's how to decline answering that question before a
solid offer has been made. So say you're interviewing, you
love the job, you're you desperately want them to make
an offer to you, and they ask you in the
interview sub bridget what are your salary requirements? And you're like,
I know, naming a number right now is the worst
possible thing I can do. But how do I get
(14:20):
out of this without being a jerk? Well, here's here's
how to do it. And this is from this is
advice from one of my board members. A Lynn Powell,
who is the She works in Higher ed in the
Career Center. She used to be at Georgetown. Now she's
at U m D. And she's amazing. She said. She
told me one to break it down to the three
step strategy. One flatly and pleasantly as possible, deny answering
(14:43):
the question. So you might say, you know what, it's
too too early, bridget to talk numbers right now. It's
a good way to get out of it. You know,
you can just say, you know, I'm not ready to
talk about numbers just yet, or I'm not comfortable, you know,
talking numbers right now. And then step two is a
swage that under lying anxiety of are you just wasting
my time here? So you might say something like, I'm
(15:06):
sure if everything else falls into place, salary won't be
an issue. Oh that's a great that's such a like
diplomatic way to get out of which is what I
love about this. It's really linguistics and psychology coming together.
So you you so just to review step one, it's
too early to talk numbers. But step two, I'm sure
everything else will work out, and I'm sure we can
(15:26):
find an amenable agreement for both of us. If this
does move forward, and then step three is get off
the topic, roll out of this thing by asking an
open ended question. So it might be you know, Bridge,
it's too early to talk numbers. I'm sure if everything
else falls into place, salary won't be an issue. Can
you tell me more about what you're looking for in
(15:47):
this position or can you tell me more about what
success would look like in the first six months? Can
you tell me more about how promotion and advancement works
in your company? Now? So make an open ended question
that will get them talking again but moves you off
of the topic. I like that so much. That's a
great way to handle it. And it doesn't have to
(16:08):
be I would say this as an anxious person. Doesn't
has to be a heavy anxious thing where you're like,
oh god, oh god, oh god. It is, but you
can use these tools to sort of navigate it so
it's not doesn't feel so heavy and anxiety provoke it.
And you know what it comes down to, its preparation.
If you want to feel less anxious doing that, say
those three sentences over and over again before your interview,
(16:29):
and you will have it bound pad you'll practice it.
It's kind of like memorizing some lines and you just
need those two lines, really and then you can come
up with whatever question makes sense. But practice, stop, drop
and roll. You've got to get off the topic. You know,
flatly refused as pleasantly as possible. Make sure they feel
like you're not wasting their time. Reassure them a little
bit that you're there because you're really taking this seriously,
(16:51):
and then get off the topic of the time. Unless
there are a total socio fath on the other end
of the conversation, they're not going to drag you back
to the topic over and over and over again. But
if they do, rinse and repeat, just use that strategy
to do everything in your power to refuse to answer
the question. And you know who does that brilliantly talking
heads on cable TV news. Oh yes, that's something we
(17:14):
as someone who took training to become the head and
a pundant, they're all about it. If you have if
you get stuck out a question you don't want to answer,
I can't answer it. Just gotta pivot ask or answer
a completely different questions. They might not know the difference exactly,
so pivot away. Do not let them force you to
answer it. And the same is true for the form.
If you have a form to fill out and you
cannot submit your application until you fill out that blanking
(17:37):
cursor box about salary requirements, put zeros in there, put
negotiable in there, put tv D, put you know, open
to conversation. Do not answer that question because the onus
falls on them to tell you what they're willing to
pay for the position. And you don't want to cut
yourself short. You don't want to low ball yourself, so
you know, you obviously also don't want to just be
(17:59):
getting jobs that way. So if you're only applying for
jobs through Monster dot Com, we've had a bigger problem
to solve there. So so just remember you do not
actually have to answer that question. Many states and maybe
our country will deem that illegal soon anyway, So to
that little time period of thirty seconds of awkward is
going to be worth ten tho dollars more year totally. U.
(18:21):
I'm happy to see that legislation is catching up with
this issue and we're getting somewhere on it, because I think, yeah,
this this, I just have made so many negotiation mistakes
and I'm thrilled to see other people not making make
those same mistakes. UM. I still remember the first time
I ever negotiated for a job, and the only reason
(18:41):
I did is because a friend of mine, we had
very we had very comparable education and skill level backgrounds,
we had been on the same campaign. We were both
hired at the same place, and he was offered ten
tho dollars more than me, and I thought I am
just as qualified as him. There's no reason I should
be making that much us And if if he had
not told me that information, I would have never asked
(19:03):
for more. And it was because I didn't know how
much how much they valued the position that is being
hired for. I didn't have any sense of that, um,
and so that's the only reason I did and I
got it. That's awesome, snaps to you, and that's an
argument for pay transparency to you and talking about your salary.
So let's take a quick break. When we come back,
we'll continue to talk through some of the common mistakes
(19:25):
that we can all avoid to get paid. To get
that money. Get your paper. We'll be right back after
a good break, and we're back. And another way that
I have tripped up in negotiation, and you were sharing
(19:45):
that you you had an experience like this as well.
Right is sending in my counter offer via email, And
that happened to me once because oftentimes when you get
an offer and the process of negotiation, as a reminder,
only begins once an offer has been made, so let's
keep that in mind. But those offers typically come in
(20:06):
over the phone, don't they, or maybe emails. More often.
I've heard that people get a phone call we'd love
to offer you the job, and you're like, great, Does
that mean you've accepted it right away? You know, you
want to be able to deliver that counter offer after
you've had a little bit of time to prepare um,
so you might want to say thank you so much
(20:28):
for this offer, express gratitude. I'm so excited about this,
as you can imagine, this is a big, big decision
that I want to take really seriously. So I'd love
until Friday to get back to you. Can we set
up a time to talk Friday afternoon? So then you
bought yourself some time. But in the past I've used
that time to write the world's most complex and very
many bullet pointed emails as my counter offer, to which
(20:52):
people are like, oh m, Gene, no, there are so
much like this, just like such a long run realists
in there. It just does not over. People don't like
getting laundry lists, like like a list of demands. Um,
I have done the same. I don't think I realized
it was something you shouldn't do until this very moment. Um.
I hate negotiations so much. If I can do it
over email, that somehow feels less awkward to me. Well,
(21:16):
it's so common though, it's completely a crutch, Like I
would much rather list what I feel like I need
in an email. Somehow that's easier for me than saying
it face to face over the phone. Well, it's more,
it feels more controlled. It feels like you have more
controlled But here's the fallacy behind that, y'all. When you
do not have body language, or at least when you're
using a phone call vocal tone on your side, you
(21:39):
can't actually adjust your tone, or you don't know if
the person on the other end of the phone is
having their worst possible day. You just you have less information,
and when you receive a very brief assertive email, you think,
oh my gosh, that person is a total nut job.
Or I can't even say the B word. I'm thinking
of Yeah, I mean, if you think about how it
plays on social media, so easy to misread things. You
(22:02):
think someone's being sarcastic, you think someone's mean or pushy
in an email. It's I'm sure I have come off
as different than I actually mean things an email because
I'm doing an email and it's it's a medium that
doesn't allow for expressions of vocal tone whatever. Um, So
it really isn't the medium to be negotiating. It is
a mindfield. You'll have too many exclamation marks, not enough
(22:24):
exclamation marks, You'll be seen as kurt or it's just
it's a real challenging way to be seen in a
negative light as assertive, and this is an assertive communication.
Asking for more is a very assertive thing to do.
And we all know that women who are seen as
more assertive are seen as less likable. So you have
to sort of counteract the assertiveness with pleasant tone and
(22:47):
body language. That's where that smile advice comes from, which
we'll talk through. So you know, knowing all that we're
going to talk more about, you know how to be
pleasant even though you're being assertive. But knowing that email
is such a h easily misconstrued medium. Just keep in
mind that your bullet pointed list is definitely an important
thing to have. You want to have a list of priorities,
(23:09):
but you want to daisy chain them. You want to
ask for one thing at a time. And that's why
a live conversation is so much easier to be a
two way dialogue, so you can respond to the yes
or to know that you're getting and not necessarily have.
You know, nobody wants to be on the receiving end
of a long list of demands. It makes you look
(23:29):
really high maintenance. And there was this story that went
viral in The New Yorker because it came out in
relative close proximity to Lean In, and everyone was sort
of reacting. The anti lean In sort of wave had
hit in full force. And the title of the articles
lean Out the Dangers for Women who negotiate, and it
(23:51):
was so hyperbolic. I really hated the point of this piece,
which was a very qualified and talented woman was offered
a higher job or a job in high education. She
counter offered via email, made a list of demands, and
the offer was revoked. That's just the biggest nightmare of
fear of everyone negotiating right to me, the conclusion that
(24:13):
they drew was an incorrect one. The conclusion was women
who negotiate, don't you know, don't get treated fairly, which
is true. But the conclusion that I think is more
productive is women who negotiate the email are much more
likely to be seen as pushy and not right for
the job anymore. So that's what happened to me. I
sent out a counter offer via email, and I got
(24:34):
the job offer revoked. And two things I learned from that. One,
this is not an employer I actually want to work
for it. It actually wasn't. Bridget knows because she ended
up working for them. And too, you know, don't do
yourself a disservice of trying to counter offer via email.
It might feel safer to you, but you're way better
off practicing with a partner in real time, asking for
(24:55):
that phone call a couple of days later, going on
with your bullet point list. But that's a list that
you work from in real time through a conversation. Because
out of curiosity, um, because I've asked my father, who
is my big negotiation coach, because he's very good at negotiation,
he's all he always says no one's ever going to
take away a job off or that rarely ever happens,
and it does, see it, What was the it's illegal
(25:16):
in some ways, what was the conversation around it when
it happened with you or they just did they just
say no, well, here's what it doesn't work. They were
being sketchy. They were hiring for a contract position, which
all my HR law folks listening can correct me here
if I get this completely wrong, because not completely wrong,
I know it's pretty right, but I'm not a lawyer.
When you're hiring for a contractor a non W two employee,
(25:38):
you are not allowed to tell them when to work
or how to work. You're allowed it's like a consulting
higher so you're allowed to say this is what we
need you to deliver on. But you're not allowed to
say you need to come into the office Monday through
Friday five. You know, it's very much illegal to treat
your contractors like full time employee. So, first of all,
if you're in that situation, so many women are, so
(26:00):
many people are yeah, oh my gosh. Yeah, it's something
that employers are violating all the time. So especially with
um our episode on the gig economy. Gig economy workers
are contractors, so you are allowed to dictate your own schedule.
That's the that's supposedly the benefit. If you're not, then
you've got a problem. So when they were hiring for
(26:23):
this position, they were hiring for a full time position,
and I assume that meant W two through the interview,
it became clear that we were talking about a contract
or position. When they called to make the offer, that's
what they were offering me. And I needed to gain
clarity and how much time they were going to compensate
me for, because it was not clear to me that, um,
they weren't going to treat me like a full time
(26:44):
staff member. They actually said, we need you to be
on call all the time. Sometimes things are fast, And
the way it was phrased was we're looking for people
who really care about these issues and really are devoted
to UH to making progress happen. And I was like,
that boils my blood. This is like the non private
industrial complex that exists in DC especially, So I bounced
(27:09):
back with my long ass bullet pointed email saying, you know,
what's the hourly rate that we're talking out here? How
many hours a week are you asking of me? Can
I work for someone else at the same time, because
it sounds like, you know, but you're hiring me as
a contractor. And it was clear to me that I
was very displeased with their offer, and clearly that came through,
and I was trying to be nice. So when I'm
(27:29):
trying to be nice to be email but doing something
very assertive, I'm talking like paragraphs after paragraphs after paragraphs,
they called me up and we're like, we've decided to
go in a different direction. So they took it from
email to calling you well, because correct me if I'm wrong.
HR Attorneys. But if people make a job offer and
then rescinded, they opened themselves up. Employers open themselves up
(27:52):
to liability. The liability meaning you might say you rescinded
this job offer because I am a woman, were differently
enabled or black or whatever. So they have to come
up with a sort of documented reason for the refusal.
So it's much easier if there's no paper trail. What's
funny is that I actually ended up working for I
(28:13):
basically took because I'm a terrible negotiator. I basically took
that exactly identical job and it was hell with hell
on Earth. I'm really glad I dodged that bullet. Definitely
me babysitting at the time, and I thought I was
never ever going to be employed ever again in a
in a stable way. And guess what I was, So
it was okay. The other thing to note on that
(28:34):
is when you were given a job offer, it's really
helpful to get that offer in writing. So one of
the other ways when you get that phone call you
asked to buy yourself some time, you try to create
a time for a live negotiation conversation asked when can
I see these details of the offer in written form?
Or when can I see the full offer package? Can
(28:55):
you tell me more about the benefits that are included
in this and can you provide this in writings? I
have time to look it over. It's a lot harder
for them to rescind an offer that's been delivered in writing.
So basically what we're saying is string them along until
you can get a paper trail essentially so that you
have some documentation. And that goes so into some of
the other topics that you've done around employment issues, like
(29:16):
coming out at work. It's a lot easier to have
an offer on hand before you reveal something about yourself
that might you know, make them if they're horrible, make
them change their mind, or just document it. Didn't coomy,
document the discussions and just writing yourself on them. Oh
can go a very long way, y'all. Remember that? Yes, um?
(29:41):
And then you know the same thing that you were
just talking about motherhood, you know, like being a little
bit choosing and intentional about when you reveal these things,
and that that's so sad for me. That's life is
not fair, and it's sad that we have to hold
our cards to our chest. But this is just a
way to here's how to do it. Yeah, I you
need to do it. You need to do it. I
(30:01):
like specializing in the tap dance, Like, here's how to
dance that tap dance because it's worth it, because the
world is not a cool place all the time, So
dance away because you are worth the effort of you know,
I don't want to say manipulating people, but manipulating people.
You know, you have to to watch out for yourself sometimes.
So when you're having that live conversation, how should women
(30:25):
go about navigating the mind field? That is like vocal
tone and body language and all that jazz. It can
be tough. Um. One tip is nervous. Don't be nervous
with your negotiation. I'm a again, I've said this a
hundred times. Hate negotiation would definitely be projecting nervousness, but
nervousness when you negotiate nervous it reads us anger. So
(30:46):
people don't aren't reading it as trepidation or you're anxious
in a situation that is a little awkward, people reading
us anger. And surprisingly no one really anger works for
men in negotiation. It does not work for women. And
so if you you know, if you come off as
seeming angry while you're negotiating in person or over the phone,
(31:07):
that is not going to work for you, even though
it works for men. Yeah, it's a really weird wrinkle
in the research around this. But what researchers found is
that compared to expressions of anger by men, which are
seen as passionate and he's just really worked up about this,
he really cares a lot. I can almost envision every
male politician ever pounding their fist on a podium somewhere
(31:27):
saying this is wrong, right. But they found that compared
to expressions of anger by men. Expressions of anger by
women are associated with less positive organizational outcomes, meaning they
won't see you as impassioned. They won't see your nervousness
as cute. They will see you as crazy or a
bee you know what I mean. I'll see you as
or I think they will see you as a potential
(31:50):
problem canon. Yeah, I imagine that with your situation in
that mystery organization that we were talking about before. Um,
they probably that probably read to them as this, this
is gonna be a nightmare employee. She's high maintenance, she
won't play ball. We're clearly looking for something someone that
is a team players, right, and so that probably worked
against you in that way, but for the best because
(32:12):
they sucked. Well, it's funny. Yes, I don't want to
trash anybody out there, but we didn't tell them. I've
got our DC friends are like trying to guess which
organization I'm happy to tell people. I just don't do
it on the air. Okay, cool, Um, let's see what
was I gonna say? Oh? Anger, So a lot of
(32:33):
the women I work with, even like my one on
one peep, So I'm preparing for negotiation when they get nervous.
Their faces dropped, and so they go like this deer
in the headlights look looks really stone faced. Sometimes like
the frown comes out, but it's not a frown because
they're angry. They're just scared, and it's a nerve wrecking conversation.
It's tense. So the research clearly points to a benefit
(32:56):
for women who are persistently pleasant. And it's complicated because
if you're smiling while receiving or delivering bad news, nobody
likes that. Well, I've got some constructive criticism for you know,
like nobody. But it's about being oriented towards problem solving
(33:18):
and community benefit. So women should go in instead of
being angry looking she'd going focused on I'm really I'm
down to like figure this out together. I'm not. I'm
not saying you should say like in the middle of
that phrase, y'all, but you get what I'm trying to
say here. You should go in ready to problem solve
and come to the table with your counter offer, but
(33:39):
be open to collaboration and coming to an agreement together.
I love that advice. I once saw a wonderful um
I wish I could remember her name, but a wonderful
speaker UM at Google, and she basically said that one
of the ways that she used, and she's a woman
of color, um, one of the ways that she used
being a woman of colors sort as a as a
(34:00):
negotiations benefit was by playing on traits that people associate
with a bit of color and kind of flipping them around.
So she says, if I'm coming off as assertive, it's
because I'm really excited to work on this with you.
If I'm coming off as um pushy, it's because I'm
so excited to problem solve this and I got through
this together and really like using the all of the
(34:22):
baggage that comes with being women who are negotiating and
talking and blah blah blah, using them to help her own.
Exactly what she's doing there is she's leading with her intent.
She's a huge part of the research on a sort
of communication in general for women, which is, if you're
about to pound the table, make sure you explain why first.
And the other thing is, you know, black women have
(34:44):
a twice as hard of a climb here because being
seen as the angry black woman is really it plays
on a media trope, right, It plays on this preconceived notion.
So just watch and practice with yourself in the mirror,
watch your facial expressions, and know what nervous looks like
for you. If you look angry, that is not going
(35:05):
to help your cause. Nervous can look like anger, it
can look like upset, it can look like, you know,
maybe you have resting, beeface all those things, or maybe
they're actually lowballing you, right, and they're angry, and that's there.
I mean, I yeah, not to say that you should
never be angry in these conversations, because if you are angry,
if you're being you know, if you're being lowballed or
(35:25):
not being you know, being offered something that's offensive, it's
a way to be angry. Righteous indignation makes sense here, y'all.
Clearly we are angry on this podcast a lot, and
I make no apologies for that. However, when I'm trying
to get you to give me a money, I'm going
to be pleasant and that means leading with gratitude, showing
appreciation at the top of every one of those conversations,
(35:46):
and then ending with I'm so excited to join this
great team. I think we're going to do a lot together,
you know, using we instead of I. So there's lots
of verbal, verbal and vernacular tips and tricks we could
throw in, but this would be a never ending podcast.
I think to avoiding the anger trap is a good
takeaway here. Should we take a break before we die quick? Okay,
we'll be right back after award from our great sponsors
(36:09):
who we love, who give us their money. Thank you,
and we're back and we are excited to talk through
some of these negotiation crosshairs, trip wires, mistakes, whatever, the
(36:30):
mind field, whatever, whatever you want to call it. Um. So,
one thing to note is that when it comes to
your salary, it's easy to think that just the money
that you're getting paid is all you have to negotiate,
but really everything is negotiable. According to the Bureau of
Labor Statistics, only about sevent of an employee's total compensation
is actually their salary. So think about all the different
(36:50):
things that that leaves on the table to to negotiate about.
Vacation for when K matching, reimbursements for travel and professional
development and conferences, UM wellness programs, commuter parts, all of that.
All those things are up up on the table to
be dealt with and negotiated around UM. And I remember
once I was supposed to be UM giving a lecture
(37:11):
at a university and they couldn't pay me. And I
was talking to a friend and I was like, oh,
it sucks. I really want to do this, but I
want to get paid. And she said, you know there
are other ways they can compensate you other than giving
you money. And she said, maybe there's someone who you
would like to be able to offer an invite to
this conference to go to for free. Can they offer
you a couple of comp tickets to give to people
(37:31):
that would benefit And I thought, oh, yeah, there are
so many other ways to get compensated for things that
aren't just money. UM. So keeping that in mind is
really important, and knowing your own priority list, so when
you prepare for that counter offer, you know you've got
the bullet pointed list. Keep in mind what your first
priority is. And I always say, like, if the money
is not as good as it can be, like find
(37:53):
out you know, so counter offer with whatever your number
one priority is. But if you get an offer that
is so incredibly high paid that you're you can't fathom
asking for more on that front, or let's say you're
in a government job where the g S scale is
dictating your salary um, there are lots of other considerations
(38:13):
that you can push back on, and so a flexibility
is important to you. Be very crystal clear about what
you're asking for. Don't lead with what you're complaining about
or worried about. Lead with what you want because it
has has that positive like starting with a positive, and
nobody can actually tell you what you want except you.
So don't make the employer do the guesswork. Don't say
(38:34):
I'm really worried about the possibility of eight hour weeks here,
say I'd like to be compensated for overtime for anything
about fifty hours a week, you know, just or say
I'd like my hours to be capped so that on
Thursdays I can work from home or my commuter you know,
rail passes are paid for, or that I get a
free gym membership, whatever it might be. Yeah, and I
should we should say that this is really only for
(38:56):
full time W two employees and stuff doesn't fly when
you're contractor right, well, that's where the benefits packages nil
or no, you know, not applicable. However, I would say,
being a professional speaker, getting a speaker fee as a
contractor employee. So that's that's I mean, your example was
perfect by saying there are still ways to be compensated
additionally beyond salary, even if you are a contracted employee,
(39:20):
a big economy worker. Sweet. Well, here's one other mistake
I see a lot of women making. And this one's
a controversial one. Like most things, I hold strong opinions
on it. But but here, tell me what y'all think.
I think another mistake is to say, and if someone
raises their hand every time I give a workshop on
(39:41):
negotiation and says this, listen, negotiation is not applicable in
my field, and they go on to say I work
in the sciences where all of my research funding is
grant based, or I work in education and all of
our salaries are fixed and saying I can't negotiate, this
(40:01):
doesn't apply to me, and sort of throwing up your
hands and saying it's not fair. And I find that
to be self defeating for obvious reasons. I think, because
you're not going to negotiate if you think you can't negotiate.
But I also want to push back and say, do
not expect your employer to roll out the red carpet
for you when it comes to negotiation. I know that
sounds harsh, but you, as the individual applying for the job,
(40:24):
have to often more often than not, initiate the negotiation conversation, right, Um,
I'm definitely I'm one of those people that would raise
my hand in that in that scenario and ask that. Um.
I think I've mentioned on the show before that I
got my start professionally as a teacher, and when you're
a teacher, your salary is like there is no room.
(40:45):
I mean, I don't know, I don't know how I
would have negotiated this because there wasn't mean to negotiate.
Your salary was totally based on your educational history. So
you get a piece of paper that says, if you
have a B A, your salary is this. If you
have an M A, your salary is this, and that
like there's not an Okay, Well, let me give you
a counter example, if I may do it. Um. So,
(41:07):
my friend Amanda was working in I think it was
like an NGO organization that uh were worked off of
the g S pay scale, which I think stands for
government scale or government salary something like that, whereby they
normalize exactly who gets paid for what, similarly to your example.
But what she realized in looking much closer at the
(41:29):
g S scale because oftentimes people aren't really reading that
fine print and then you get busy doing your job
instead of doing the job of getting the job or
making sure that they're paying you properly for the job.
All that meta work, uh, And what she found when
she looked into it is that she was actually doing
the work of someone on two rungs up that scale.
So she went back to them and said, Hey, we
(41:52):
need to talk about my compensation. She initiated an internal
negotiation by going to HR and saying, hey, I'd love
to find time to talk about my future at the company,
you know, And she positioned it that way, I'd love
to talk about and get your feedback at how things
are going and share with you some of the things
that I'm considering moving forward. Again, a bold assertive move,
(42:12):
but it's the way to initiate a negotiation internally. In
the negotiation, she laid out a very clear case for
why she was being compensated two rungs below the work
she was actually doing, and they agreed with her. It
was like irrefutable the way that that phrasing connected to
the work she was doing, and she got paid significantly
more than she had been previously. That's amazing. And the
same thing can be said about your educational background. So
(42:35):
I don't have a master's degree, but I did a fellowship,
and here's how that fellowship should be compensated comparably. I mean,
I I'm not gonna I think people should try it.
I would be sure if you try. If you're a
teacher and you tried this and it worked, please let me.
I'm a little differ. You're rightfully dubious. But here's the
thing I would say, Okay, well, if you're not going
(42:57):
to see my education, my additional education, or my additional
experience for my additional training in the same exact light
as a master's degree, at least we could talk about
compensation for travel or reimbursement for professional developments. To think
that when I was teaching, there did seem to be
there were some other professors who, because they had families
or blah blah blah, they were able to There must
(43:18):
have been some understanding at some phase in the negotiation
process where they said I won't work I won't teach
the classes that happened in the evening. And so I
wonder if maybe while they couldn't negotiate for salary because
it was just you know, either you have a master's scare,
you don't um if they said, well, I need to
be able to make it home by five on Monday, Wednesday, Friday.
(43:38):
So they just always as a as a single childless
heaven and I always get stuck with the worst schedule.
And I can't imagine that somewhere down the line someone
was not negotiating for that all negotiable. And I'm a
firm believer. And I know a lot of single women
who say I can't negotiate because my colleagues get to
negotiate because they have kids, or my colleagues get to
negotiate because of their special circumstances. You've got to make
(43:59):
the ace and you might not always be successful. I
get it, I get it, but you can it is negotiable.
You can make it a priority, and if they don't
meet you halfway, you can leave. You can negotiate with
someone else. Here's the thing. It is so important that
we learn how to initiate negotiation because overwhelming amounts of
research point to the fact that it's not it's not
(44:22):
that women aren't confident enough to go for a job
that they're not perfectly qualified for. It's that women, more
often than men, are more are more likely than men
to follow the rules. So a lot of times you
hear you know, men are so confident they'll apply for
a job before they meet a percent of the statistics,
and women won't apply for a job and telling me
(44:42):
percent it's about confidence. It's not about confidence. Women in
those studies do that they avoid of applying for jobs
they think are going to be a waste of their
time because they're trying to follow the rules. We could
have a whole episode around sort of work and women
in kind of good girl culture and wanting to be,
you know, rule follower and feeling feeling like you can't
(45:02):
break the rules because that's bad, and I'm here to
give you all permission to not take the rules. So seriously,
people assume that tiring is more formal of a process
than it actually is. Rules bend, use your human nature
and use human interaction to bend the rules in your favor.
And don't assume that everything is so fixed, because even
(45:23):
if they list this, you know, seventeen bullet points as
requirements for the job position or for the promotion. Explore
whether or not they are indeed required. So here's how
to initiate a negotiation conversation, even when it's not obvious.
Said Okay, here's your offer, and now's the time for
your counter offer, which percent of the time will never
really ever happen. One ask for the time to talk
(45:46):
about it. So ask for can I look this offer over?
Or can we talk about the future of my employment
at this company next Friday? Get on their schedule. Be
proactive about asking for time to talk about it. The
second is to ask straight up, is this negotiable? Can
we talk about this offtware? Is it? Is there some
flexibility here if you really don't know? If if they
(46:07):
sound like they needed yes or no answer right now,
you can ask them so now if it's negotiable. And finally,
when your counter offering and someone says I don't know,
I mean this is the offer, and you say, well,
can we talk about five K more a year and
they say not really, I'm not sure, you can always
say can you look into that for me? Yeah? And
again that's another kind of very constructive. Nice way to
(46:29):
phrase it where it's not a it's not negative, it's
not combative. It's not combative, it's inquisitive. I think that
actually makes you look like a like a good employee.
It's like, oh, this is someone who is interested in
in problem solving and finding solutions. Yeah, can you run
that up the flagpole for me? Can you check on
that for me? It's much harder for them to say no.
(46:51):
And I actually have heard from a friend who negotiated
for a huge increase in pay and the hiring managers thought,
this is not going to have and for you, I
really doubt that this increase is going to happen, And
she said consistently, do you mind looking into it? Can
you find out? And that even though the hiring employer
or the hiring manager wasn't empowered to give her or
(47:12):
sort of sanction to give her that much money, when
she went back and said, well, here's what this Canada
wants and I know it's way more than we're going
to give her, her boss said yes. So then she
came back and said you got it, And so she
got this huge increase in pay. So even if you
feel a little bit stuck you can always ask them
to look into it for you sort of really wrap
(47:33):
up this issue when it really comes down to, like
with most things, is that we need more systemic change.
People whold power on this issue should really be UM,
keeping an eye out for it, paying attend. If you're
a hiring manager, you should be paying attention to the
different rates that which women and men are asking for
different opportunities. UM. If you have the ability to, you know,
close the gap on this issue, use that power. UM.
(47:55):
And really I think manager should be driving this larger
cultural change to get to the place where we to be. Yeah.
And it's hard, right because I believe in self interest.
I believe that you know, people are selfish. And when
your job is to save the company money, or your
job as an HR professional is to keep the company
out of trouble, you're going to go to great lengths
to make it harder for people to negotiate. And I
(48:18):
understand why I run a business like I get that,
But I talk about negotiation, I have to pull teeth
to get my staffers to negotiate with me. So negotiating
with me must be very weird. I can helply imagine.
But you know, you have to be your own best
advocate in this, y'all, because until the world is a
much more fair place and pay is much more transparent,
(48:38):
you're the only one that can push back and be
in your corner and ask for more um and and
to use your best judgment when doing so, because no one,
no one can tell you what your priorities are. And
I guess the last thing I think is really worth
mentioning here is this advice that we hear a lot,
that women should always negotiate is advice that I think
(49:02):
should be pushed back on a little bit. And I'm
the biggest fan of negotiation. I think we should not
be afraid to negotiate. But I also think that women
know when um when pushing back is going to get
you in trouble. In a new paper in nb R,
three economists and management researchers found that advising women to
(49:24):
quote always negotiate might not be in their best interest.
It seems women already know when negotiations won't work out
in their favor, so they really, you know, sort of
push back on this blanket advice. It's not a one
size fit all solution. Keep in mind that two people
talking to people This is not an abnormal everyday thing.
You are talking to someone, you're trying to come to
(49:45):
an agreement, Use your best judgment and keep in mind
where they're coming from. Use empathy to your advantage in
this and and and proceed when you know in being
your corner, but also be empathic in doing so. Yeah,
and I think just remembering that these are tools in
the toolbox, and you know, if you're a good carpenter
or whatever, you know when you need a hammer or
(50:06):
when you need a nail or just having those tools
and knowing when to use them is key for for
understanding how this personally will imprint you. But don't be
the one who can't wield a hammer, because exactly so,
you have to be comfortable bringing different skills and strategies
to these equations. So don't avoid negotiation because you don't
know how to negotiate, or you don't you're just afraid
(50:27):
of negotiation. But use your best you know, you be
your best advocate, and apply the sort of strategy or
tool that you think will serve you best in that moment. Yeah,
good god, I could like talk about negotiation for seventeen
more hours, and in fact, I do over on my
website and you should check it out. And there's lass
of videos that I create on this topic, and we'll
be doing a lot more on this soon. Do you
(50:49):
want to negotiate with me right now? Not? Well, I
feel like every conversation we have is a bit of
a negotiation, not in a bad way, an enjoyable negotiation. Yeah,
we're constantly unpacking big ideas together, which is a kind
of negot It's just two people talking. It's too and
we're trying to come to conclusions together, mutually beneficial conclusion
that All right, y'all, give us your best and worst
(51:12):
negotiation stores. What mistakes did you make? I hope we're
not alone in this. I hope we're not the only
people who aren't perfectly raised to negotiate about your negotiation fails.
So send us a tweet at mom stuff podcast, or
shoot us the photo of you negotiating power before you negotiate.
I don't know, shows you happy dance after winning a
negotiation on on Instagram at stuff mom never told you?
(51:35):
Or if you have a power blazer or something like
your negotiation outfit. Oh yeah, what's your negotiation face look like?
I actually have a photo on my Instagram, um met
a moment here for the podcast. I have a photo
on Instagram of me and Brad the Boot at a
gas station right after I negotiated this deal with how
Stuff Works, and I have the biggest smile on my face.
(51:58):
We were in the middle of a road trip it
and I made this thing happen out of like a
gas station in the middle of nowhere in Kansas. And
if you want to check out what a fresh negotiation
face looks like, you can find it on my personal Insta.
But yeah, send us tabs on your Insta when you
negotiate before or after, proferably not during. Yeah, be bad
(52:20):
like like negotiations sel be people are like wrap it up,
Emily and and as always you can send that's a
good old fashioned email about your negotiation tips and tricks
at mom stuff at hell Stuff Works dot com.
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