August 15, 2016 • 54 mins
Breast ptosis -- the fancy name for sag -- has way more to do with aging and genetics than gravitiy. Cristen and Caroline explore what's "normal" in in the boob realm to get to the bottom of how and why boob sag happens.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to stuff Mom never told you. From how stupports
dot com. Hello, would welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen
and I'm Caroline, and today we're chuckling the science of
saggy boobs. That's right, it's just a part of life.
Ladies and gentlemen, boobs, they sag, yeah, you know. And
(00:26):
and the thing is people might hear, you know, the
science of saggy boobs and just safe ladies, ladies, ladies.
Just gravity, right, yeah, just that theory of gravity just
pulling down in your boobs, dan and day out. But
that's wrong, and those people think that those people are wrong.
I can see why you would think that. Sure, I mean,
(00:48):
gravity does pull things down, you know, yep, you know,
like if you take your bra off, let it go,
it will likely drop to the floor because that's gravity.
And that and if that's what Newton had discovered gravity through,
I realized I just like really screwed up the syntax
of that. But like, if a bra had fallen on
his head instead of an apple, Oh man, where was Newton?
(01:10):
He was having a good old time? Would he have
kept that secret? Although I guess it wouldn't have been
a bra back in his day, it would have been
like pantlets or of course, yeah, and you know, depending
on the type of course that it was, it might
have hurt even more than an apple for that. And
have you ever been hit in the face with whale bone?
How many times have I been hit in the face
(01:31):
with whalebone? Carolina constantly? It's weird here in the Sminty studio.
We just have old timey underpants always flying around. It's
like one of those you know, wind machines with the
money in it, just instead of it, just imagine like
paper bills flying around. There are corsets, whale bones, bras,
(01:53):
knitting nar walls. Yeah, we should really wear protective gear
in here. Honestly, I'm wearing my en sing outfit, so
my face is protected, buddy. So we're we are here.
We promised to talk about saggy boobs, not just the
things that hit us in the face on a daily basis. Well,
and maybe in order to get serious we should switch
(02:14):
from the colloquialism of saggy boobs and get more clinical
with tosis. Yes, which is a scientific term for bobs. Yes,
it's breast toosis. Because typically if you just searched for tosis,
you're just gonna get a saggy eyelid. Wait, is this
a Google image search? Yeah, well it's just a Google
(02:36):
in general, we'll point you more directly to the sagging
of the eyelid, eyelid tosis, But in this case, we're
talking about breast ptosis, breast toosis, breastosis, which does sound
like it should be like, all one word, what would
breastosis be? It almost sounds like halatosis. Oh, if you
have stinky boobs. Oh no, that can happen the sun.
(03:00):
Let's be honest, dude, I know, dude, I know. And
they're actually degrees of sag. There are six degrees of tosis,
like six degrees of separation from Kevin Bacon. There are
six degrees of your boobs sagging off your chest. And honestly,
I was somewhat disheartened to learn this because I feel
(03:20):
like it's just pathologizing our our tosis, which, by the way,
is felt like it looks like it could be pronounced potosis,
which I have pronounced a potosis before because that's more
fun to say. Um and uh. There are even diagrams,
helpful diagrams you can know just just what exactly is
not perfect about your own boobs. And we're looking at
(03:42):
one of those diagrams right now here in the studio,
and uh, it's a it's a white lady with some
brown hair shown of course in a profile with their
their breast just one boob. You can only see one
of her boobs. And I was gonna say a uni
boob instead of a unich horn. But uni boob is
the thing when you wear like a two tight sports bra.
(04:03):
Or is that mono boob? I think mono boob uni boob.
I think they're synonymous listeners let us know for wrong anyway,
but don't let me in her rupt or maybe she's
an Amazon, you know. Oh yeah, because she lopped off
her other boob so she could better shoot arrows. There
we go, anyway. And this highly scientific tosis diagram shows
(04:26):
this uh like lady clone essentially flopping each of her
single boobs over a tight rope to to evaluate what
angle her nipple points to. Yeah, and I mean they
point out what is quote unquote normal as being regardless
(04:48):
of your boob size and shape, it's when the nipple
and the bulk of the tissue sits above the crease
that's under your boob a k. The inframamary fold. But
you know, Christen and I had a discussion a while
back about like, well, wait, wait, wait wait, if if
it's a boob, it's normal. Like boobs are normal, your size,
(05:08):
your shape, wherever they're pointing, if they're askew, if they're
cross whatever, they're normal. Even if you've got three or
four more. Yeah, if you have a whole row of them, whatever,
it's you, it's normal. Um. And so jumping off of that,
I actually tried to search online dig up some information
on like, Okay, boobs have always been around, and therefore
(05:32):
they've always stagged at some point or another to one
degree or another. So who came up with this like
sagging ptosis diagram here where it does look like these
drawings of women they've just draped their boobs over like
a ballet bar. Yeah, and I couldn't. I couldn't find
anything because I just wanted to know. In everything we study,
(05:52):
there's always an origin story, right of like someone who
quote unquote discovered the condition pathologized it, like wrote the
diagram and all the rules, and whether it's something that
like legitimately needs to be treated by a doctor, or
whether it's something that just women feel insecure about and
they don't need to feel insecure about it. But I
couldn't find any any like tosis treatment origin story. Uh,
(06:15):
you know, I think it's a solid bet that it
was a dude. And I would love slash not love
to meet the guy who you know, leaves the work
rushes to the bar to meet up with his friends.
And it's like dudes Illa discovered discovered saggy breast today
it was it was me I discovered them. Well, let's
(06:38):
like our episode on the CLITTERI is about men discovering
the clitter is like they had just struck gold in
California anyway. So I'm sorry I don't have that information
for you listeners. I would love to provide it. Yeah,
And I mean, if anyone knows that the origin of
this diagram, there's got to be someone, like we have
some really smart listeners. Well, the thing is too, as
(06:59):
we're going to talk about in the second half of
the podcast, it the answer might be many different probably men,
and I say probably men because of course the earliest
doctors were men. But as we'll talk about more, there
is a cultural lens through which our definition of normal
boob is defined or portrayed or interpreted or depicted in
(07:23):
helpful cartoons like this one that we're looking at. Um.
So once you start sagging, you've got grades one to
three of boob saggage, one being mild, three being severe. Uh.
Then you have something called parenchymal mal distribution, which to
me sounds like a Harry Potter spell. Um, but it's
basically when your boob has a quote unquote unusual shape. Um.
(07:48):
They define it as a lack of fullness in the
lower part of the breast, a high inframamory fold so
that ballet bar would be real high up under your boob,
and a short infra memory fold to nipple distance. So
there's that. I mean, I think it's now tempting in
(08:08):
the same way that you can practice like the eyeliner
liquid liner winged look by putting an index card, you know,
up against your eye as a guide. I'm now tempted
to take an index card to my boob and see
what what what my line is? I did? I did
(08:29):
stand sideways in the mirror after after this to be like,
you know, I I don't know if my boobs are
are hanging low. If they're wobbling to and fro, can
you tie them in a knot? Can you tie them
in a bow? So I stood to the side and
and looks like everything is above the infra memory fold.
Excellent news. So you would get a grade one? Uh No,
(08:50):
I think I'd be normal. I'm not sagging. Oh you
don't get great at all. See you know what as
a real grade rubber in school? I would like you.
You would want to be an INN for normal? What
about an A for aspirational awesome? Boobs? Bob? And I'm
an a b um. There are some distinctions though, because yeah,
(09:17):
I bet y'all didn't know that you can get this
deep into Saggy breasts are welcome, Oh boy. There are
a lot of nuances, such as toss shouldn't be confused
with atrophy, which is simply the loss or shrinking of
tissue from lack of use, and of course that applies
to any type of tissue, not just your breast, such
(09:38):
as um if you wear a cast. I don't know
why this always tickles me. Someone wearing a cast and
takes when they finally get it removed, their arms all
shriveled and pale from why does it disuse? Why does
it tickle you? Like I said, I don't know, You're like, hey,
I love when you have a shrunken limp, Like you
get a little little baby arm like that Kristen Wig
(10:03):
character on SNL. But those are like baby hands anyway. Um,
but anyway, you've also got false SAgs. So like we're
never safe because you either have real SAG stage one
to three or you've got false SAG which can actually
then lead to real sag ortosis. This is also named pseudotosis,
which is the fancy name for false SAG. And this
(10:26):
is coming from and actually kind of great website. So
you know how like when you're convinced that something's wrong
with you and you're dying, you got to web m
D and you're like, I don't know what it is,
and you just convince yourself that it's cancer. Well, there
is a website out there where actual, real medical professionals
can respond to your concerns. And this particular website was
one for plastic surgery and cosmetic surgery concerns. And a
(10:50):
woman had posted pictures of her breasts and was like,
do I have atrophy or tosis what's going on? And
doctors Donald W. Kress and Lorie Salt actually gave her
some great answers, and they pointed out that she had pseudotosis.
And they explained that this occurs when those anchoring ligaments
of the breast that you know, attach them to your chest,
(11:11):
your Cooper's ligamat Yeah, Cooper's ligaments are still intact, so
that the support structure is still there, but the breast
itself has defilated like a sad birthday balloon on Monday morning.
And they explain that pseudotosis is not true atosis because
going back to our cartoon diagram, the nipple is still
(11:32):
at or above that inframamary fold even though the lower
part of the breast is sagging. So their final diagnosis
is what, um that you should go get a breast
lift and an implant. Of course. Yeah. See, I wish
that we could set up our own website like this.
(11:53):
People can send us their photos of you know, the
their their volva's or breasts or whatever of you know,
the female anatomy, their cankles. Congratulations, you're normal and human. Yeah,
everyone would just get a gold star and just be like, yeah, snow,
you get a Snowflake award because they would get an
end for normal. I mean because if pseudo toasis is
(12:15):
a thing, like you said, we can never win. And
also I'm going to take issue with their whole Cooper's
ligaments reference because there is controversy over whether those Cooper's
ligaments are really supporting the breast, because a lot of
doctors today think that Cooper's ligaments merely divide our breasts
into compartments, kind of like when you peel an orange,
(12:38):
you have those uh oh wow, that face that Caroline
is making it was incredible. Imagine imagine your boobs an
orange and your Cooper's ligaments are like the those what
this is like the white things, the fiber. It's pith,
That's what it's the the orange. Pith divides the fruit
(12:59):
into the wedge. Is kind of like our Cooper's likamens
do for our breasts. Interesting, I'm learning so much today
and that should be a song. You boob is lack
an ounge, people, girl, it's just the pith. You're the
pithyist um. Okay, Well, so people are dying to know
what causes it, then, well we're going to tease them
(13:19):
a little bit more and first tell them what doesn't
cause it. That's right, because there are a lot of
assumptions out there that, like you hit on one at
the beginning. Gravity. Everybody seems it's just gravity that you
get old and gravity takes its toll and your boobs
hit the floor. And of course gravity contributes to that.
But it's a myth that it's only gravity. Also a
(13:41):
myth that breastfeeding will make your boob stack. Yeah, there
have been several recent studies that have myth busted that
it's not breastfeeding alone. It's well, I mean pregnancy though, well,
we'll mess with it, but not the act of breastfeeding. Yeah.
It's also a myth that pregnancy weighting by itself is
a major risk actor fortoss weight gain and maintaining a
(14:03):
higher weight is to a degree, but not pregnancy weight
gains specifically. And the idea that if you don't exercise
enough for your upper body that that will somehow cause
boob saggage. Not so. And also a big one that
we need to knock out is the question of two
bra or not too bra and whether that influences how
(14:23):
much your boobs will sag. Because some listeners might remember
a French study that went viral a few years ago,
which based on a very small sample size, found a
correlation between wearing a bra and sagg ear breasts. And
of course, because the internet and um science quote unquote
reporting is what it is, headlines abounded claiming take off
(14:48):
your braws, they're making your breast sag and in fact
that was not what the study authors were claiming at all.
There's no way that you can extrapolate such a conclusion
as that, and wearing braw or not wearing a bra
probably will have no impact whatsoever on how much your
breasts will toasis will test a size toast um. Okay,
(15:13):
but things that are big risk factors. Let's start off
with aging, right because aging, in general, you see the
skin and its support structures start to lose its elasticity
over time, and so in the same vein, things that
speed up aging could also potentially speed up the saggage
of your boobage. Things like smoking and sun tanning. In
(15:37):
other words, anything that breaks down skins collagen and the
protein alastin which helps, you know, make you all bouncy
and youthful and shiny as a young person. Anything that
breaks down that good helpful stuff is going to contribute
to your skin in general, and also your breast tissue sagging.
And of course weight will affect the shape and size
(15:59):
of our breast, So things like significant weight loss, higher
b m I s and larger brock cup sizes are
associated with more atosis because when you gain weight, for instance,
your skin and internal support structures may stretch, and conversely,
when you lose weight, your boobs might sag if you
(16:20):
don't have enough elasticity to regain their shape. Yeah, and
not pregnancy itself, but the number of pregnancies overall is
related to ptosis. So basically, during pregnancy, your breath become
engorged while you're pregnant and then nursing, and then they
decrease in size and droop and this droopage, saggage, tosi,
(16:42):
sage gets worse with every pregnancy. But the factors if
we just look at an isolated boob away from these
like in the wild, yes, bob in the wild. Away
from these contributing factors such as weight gainer loss, or
pregnancy or smoking, the main things that will determine how
(17:03):
how perky your breasts are or are not. Where your
nipples are pointing where it hangs over that tight rope
are your amount of skin elasticity, and really the ratio
of your breast tissue to fat. And the higher ratio
you have of that, the firmer and perkier they will be,
(17:24):
so higher on the breast tissue, lower on the fat. Yeah.
And one reason, big reason why we, you know, experience
stosis as we age is because as we get older,
a lot of that breast tissue is converted to fat.
So our breast just get fattier over time. That's really
what's happening. And for as much stress as we might
(17:48):
feel and put on ourselves about our own personal tosis,
it's all in our genes. We can't really fight it,
just like cellulite. I mean those two like the left
city and your breast density, that all traces back to
your jeans. Yes, yeah, So look at your mom, look
(18:08):
at your grandma, look at your dad, look at you,
look at your dad, look at your dad, and then
look to your future and then get that index card.
Draw a line from your intra memory fold to your nipple,
get your boob tight rope. I love this. I love
this little cartoon even more now that you said that,
now that I imagine, it's just like a little boob circus.
All right, lady flop Amova, let's see dot um. We
(18:33):
didn't mention that there is one other cause, and that's
congenital sagging. And that's when girls, young girls who are
developing breasts. Originally, when they developed breasts, that sag with
downward pointing nipples, which again that just sounds to me like, oh,
you just developed breasts, yeah, and yours point. They're looking
in a different direction than maybe your best friends are. Yeah.
(18:56):
Who what were we talking about? What episode was it
and us Free the Nipple where we mentioned some cultures
where it's super common to sunbathe nude or go to
the spa nude or whatever, on and on and on
and how in those societies women tend to report higher
levels of body confidence because they're they're simply more used
(19:18):
to seeing other women's bodies and knowing that all of
these variations on a theme are normal. Yeah, they see
more breasts in the wild. I mean, seriously, if you
want to give your can we get Richard Attenborough? Is
it Richard or David? I guess David Attenborough one of
the Attenborough's to narrate that documentary Breast in the Wild
(19:38):
and he lecy through the No, I'll just pay you instead, Okay, okay, sold.
But we need to take a closer look at the
pregnancy factor because there was a study from in the
Annals of Plastic Surgery which found of patients who had
(19:58):
been pregnant, at least one reported adverse changes in breast
shape after pregnancy. Yeah, so I guess there something that
is normal, which is your breasts changing shape, your your
whole body is changing shape throughout your life. But I mean,
I guess that can be a bummer if you're not
expecting it well. And it to me, it reminds me
(20:21):
of our conversations on your so called pre baby body
and trying to get that back and the fact that we,
I think, just like culturally are blind to how pregnancy
just naturally changes a woman's body and it's not like
there's a body of ours that we like left behind
like a coat somewhere to gross skin suit. Um. Yeah,
(20:46):
along those same lines, I mean, everything you just said
sounds so nice and normal and comforting that I did
find a terrifyingly worded study from the British Journal of
Plastic surgery, which said end I quote pregnancy and lactation
maybe followed by a total collapse of the structure of
the breasts, particularly if an unusual degree of enlargement takes place.
(21:06):
That sounds horrifying, right, a total collapse of the structure
of the breast. Yeah, I'm I'm just imagining like a
building demolition, Like those are your boobs, It's about to happen.
They're imploding. You give birth and a cloud of dust
goes up from your chest. It's the worst. I apologize
to everything. That's one thing that we never talked about
in the delivery room or the exploding breast, you know,
(21:29):
everywhere everywhere. That's why those surgeons have to wear yeah,
some protective I wear. Yeah. Well, so what is going
on with this supposed collapse of boob structure? So basically,
you've got all of the enlargement that happens thanks to
your pregnant body, uh, that stretches and disrupts those Cooper's
(21:50):
ligaments allegedly Allegedly, I am such a Cooper's ligaments skeptic
over interesting, we should do a specific episode about Cooper's ligaments.
I had no idea. So all that enlargement also stretches
the skin, which can contribute to wrinkles, stretch marks, and
again loss of support, which leads to this thing called
postpartum involution. You might also know the word involution from
(22:12):
another post pregnancy thing, which is when your uterus shrinks
back down. Uh, involution just means the shrinkage of an organ,
and so the same thing is happening in your boobs.
So I wonder though again, and if there is anyone
listening who knows the answer, please tell me, because this
is one of those issues where there is not a
(22:34):
ton of reliable information, especially if you're going through Google.
It's a lot of plastic surgery website and a lot
of Yahoo answers, and a lot of Yahoo answers, and
a lot of older academic or scientific studies that are
very hard for my brain to get through. And I
don't mean to disparage myself. I simply mean that, like,
(22:54):
I don't know what it's saying. Oh yeah, Well, in
the nineties seventies, UH, there were a number of doctors
who were concerned about the braw less trend at the
time and how it might affect women's breast because this
is also a period when most doctors you would see
would be men too. Um And I want to say
(23:16):
that it might have been in the American Medical Association
Journal where there was a fantastic um uh letter exchange
from doctors just very worried about women's braw less breasts.
That is such a good point, that makes so much
sense because a lot of the studies that I did
(23:38):
find that we're kind of in depth. I didn't want
to review two closely because they were from the seventies.
And so you know, in any episode that you and
I do where we are talking about health stuff, you
never want to rely on something that's really old. You
want to like try to get the latest information. So
I sort of was like, why is there all this
stuff from the seventies. I'm not going to read all
(23:58):
this stuff. I mean, I have a only that that
is the first time that doctors really started paying closer
attention to women's breast well. I mean, I wonder if
it's the first time that everybody was seeing boobs not
in their like rocket shaped braziers, in the pointy braziers
of the um well. I mean, because similar to how
(24:21):
we are still learning things about the internal structures of
our vaginas and clitterisas we've been studying breasts only slightly longer.
I mean, it wasn't until the nineteen nineties that researchers
started to figure out the biomechanics of how female breasts
move around. So is there any boob science scientists out there?
(24:44):
I would like to hear from you and know what
the state of your research is, because I think we
need more of it, because I want that Cooper's ligaments
questions settled once and for all. Well, I know, and
and and I'm glad you brought it up because I
legitimately had not read anything that questioned the role of
the Cooper's ligaments. That's what I'm here for, I know,
to contribute things about ligament calling out shoddy bob science,
(25:07):
shoddytosis troubles. Yeah, talk about some pseudotosis. That's right, ladies,
Um okay, Well, so when euce does involution occur? Well,
in the next big hormonal stage of our life, menopause,
the fund never stops. So as women age and especially
(25:27):
after menopause, our milk producing glands in our breasts called
lobules close up shop. They pack up, they head home.
Did they move to Florida like other old folks. Yeah,
we'll move into Florida, getting all lobules and our suitcases
and we're going to Florida. Ah. This is called lobular
regression or lobular involution. And it's interesting to see that
(25:51):
both hormone replacement therapy and prior pregnancies do affect the
progression of involution. So went three of women in this
one study who had never used hormone replacement therapy experienced
complete involution Compared with just of the women who had
(26:12):
undergone hormone replacement therapy, seven percent of women who had
never had children experienced complete boob shrinkage involution. Sorry, I
don't mean to be glib. Compared with just eight of
the women who had had four children, they found that
women who had had more than three kids ended up
retaining more lobules. Okay, So why did I just throw
(26:34):
all that at you? Why did I just read those
statistics about lobs some lobule facts. There we go. Um,
it's to talk about breast cancer. Sorry for the tone shift,
but basically, according to the Mayo Clinic in two thousand six,
women who experienced complete involution of the breast had half
(26:58):
the risk of breast can there than those who don't.
And that makes sense because breast cancer is thought to
originate in our lobules, so people who have smaller and
or fewer lobules are at a lower risk. And of
course this is not the only factor when it comes
to breast cancer. Of course there are more factors, because
I know that. When I was reading this, I was
(27:18):
confused for a minute because I thought, well, wait, I
always thought that pregnancy itself was a protective factor, that
the more pregnancies you did have, the lower your chance
for breast cancer. But that's just another hormonal piece of
the breast cancer puzzle. So I, by no means want
to indicate that like, if you never have kids and
never use hormone replacement therapy, you're going to be totally fine,
(27:41):
because obviously there's more to it than that. But those
are some interesting tidbits. So this is all of a
signs and all of these factors that can influence the
shape of our breast. But of course we are often
sold so many ideas about how our breasts should look
and steps that we can take to make them look
(28:04):
like those aspirational boobs, and we're going to talk about
that when we come right back from a quick break.
All right, so listen, there is no amount, no amount
(28:24):
in the world of push ups or pull ups or
rowing or anything that's gonna give you big, perky boobs. Yeah,
exercises cannot influence the shape of your breasts, which is
unfortunate for people who have read Are you there got
to see Margaret The exercise she does for you. Must
(28:45):
you must, you must increase your bust of what is it?
You put your push your palms together and flex. We're
doing it right now, listeners in the studio. We're flexing
our pecks. We are we are flexing the peck. Yes, yeah,
Because all of those exercises you do to benefit your
bust um, to boost the bust. It's gonna boost your
(29:08):
pectoral muscles, which are under your breasts, but it's not
going to lift or firm those sacks of breast tissue
and fat that sit on top of the pectoral muscles.
Our sacks are just our sacks, you know. We've just
got sacks of facts too. Nice but nonetheless, in the
(29:32):
same way that there are myriad exercises and creams and
pills that we can supposedly take to erase our cellulite.
Same goes for all sorts of herbs and creams that
are supposed to firm and smooth our breasts. But the
thing is, anything topical that you rub all over your
(29:53):
boobs is not going to magically seep in and restructure
your tissue or that density of fat tissue to breast tissue.
And the thing is, if it could, the FDA might
be a little concerned. Yeah, And if it, yeah, exactly,
and if it does promise to do that, you can
pretty much rest a shirt. It's fake. And that if,
(30:14):
like you said, if it was real, if it did exist,
it would cost a million dollars and probably be sold
by one of those fancy lisition companies that celebrities always
tout in magazines like La Prairie or Lamare that sell
for like over three dollars, so they could sell like
la boob la boob, La boo bay, La boo bay.
(30:36):
But yeah, breast assured, it won't work. Have you been
holding onto that one? It just came to my mind
and I just wanted to make sure I used it
before it evaporated. Um. And again, the whole broth factor
isn't going to fix in quotes or prevent any toastis. Although,
(30:57):
as we're going to talk about in our next episode
titled sports boobs, sports bras are very important to where
during exercise because when we run around, our breast don't
just bounce up and down or side to side. They
oscillate in a figure eight motion. And it's it's just
good for our breast tissue to keep them supported with
(31:20):
sports bra it hurts. Oh yeah, boob bouncing hurts a
lot um act in fact. Okay, well, so there are
things that are helpful when it comes to I don't
even breast help breast aging, like to keep them happy
and healthy as they age. And it's really like the
(31:43):
same advice for keeping your whole being happy and healthy
as you age, which is like eat healthy, drink lots
of water, get physical activity and quit smoking and watch
sun tanning. Yes, watch sun tanning, watch your eight all
of those basic things I mean. And when it does
come to surgery, and I wavered on whether to even
(32:06):
talk about this because it's I don't want to appear
to be like encouraging surgery. But I did get this
information from go ask Alice, which is the Columbia University
Columbia University advice site that has all great things to
say in terms of body advice, health advice, sex advice
is fabulous. I was like, Wow, left, go ask Alice
skin talk about it. We can talk about it well.
(32:28):
And breast lifts and reductions are like physically necessary for
a lot of women. I mean, I know women who
have really large breasts who are either saving up for
reduction surgeries are still kind of debating it just because
it's it can be tough to get around and certainly
exercise and stay healthy. Yeah, for sure. So as far
(32:49):
as the surgical options for TOSASCO, you can get breastleft
surgery that removes extra skin and extra breast tissue. It
also tightens and lifts the remaining skin, and or can
involve getting implants as well. But this is really only
a stop gap because your ligaments and your skin it's
going to stretch again over time, and so that newly
(33:10):
perky pair is still just going to start looking down
to the floor eventually. And it also is worth keeping
in mind as the Go ask Alice people point out
that if you are just thinking about getting implants because
you feel like your breasts are sagging too, far, that's
still only going to fill them out, it's not going
to lift Yeah, I mean, and I think that this
(33:33):
is where we get to the question of whether we
are more motivated by cosmetic appearance, which obviously, like, there's
nothing wrong with being concerned about how your breasts look.
I think it's it's a natural thing. Um. But if
you're looking for surgery purely for cosmetics because we think
our breasts should look a certain way, or if our
(33:56):
ptosis is causing us physical pain and problems, and probably
sussing out the two is even more challenging because there are,
you know, so many layers to what we think our
breasts should look like. Because of course there's our personal taste,
maybe our sexual partners personal taste, what we might see
(34:18):
in pornography, um, and just societally what um, what we're
taught looks good, yeah, or what we thought looked good
when we were cave people. Oh, yes, there's always the
cave people. I feel like we need a bell or
we need some sort of sound effect to indicate when
(34:38):
we're about to talk about evolutionary biology theory because we
always do and I always like, I always like it,
and also raise an eyebrow at it because it always
makes sense to degree, but I'm always I always make
sure to like remain a little bit skeptical. Um, but
(34:59):
boobs are a different when it comes to having an
EVO bio theory around them and our preferences for their shape.
There was a study in the journal Plastic and Reconstructive
Surgery Global Open that talked about how relative youth and
physical appearance provide clues to youth and fecundity basically like
(35:21):
ability to pop out babies. Uh, and if a woman
has farmed out the baby making job to a cave
dude already, because other cave dudes want to be able
to tell like, am I going to get a cave
woman who is ready to make babies? Or has she
already made babies? So essentially the evo bio explanation for
(35:43):
us even worrying all about how our breast look is
that cave people presumed that perky breasts meant someone had
not been he hadn't yet had kids, but would make
but that she's a wonderful womb. She would make a
wonderful womb. Uh. Yeah, that's a perfect way to put it. Basically,
(36:04):
that she's clearly young and healthy, but has not farmed
out the cave daddy responsibilities yet. Um it sounds like
a is that like a task rabbit thing that you
can do these days? Um? So the researchers right that
the post pregnancy breast shape is a major sign of
previous childbearing. In fact, this may be the only visual
(36:27):
sign of previous pregnancies. Evolutionarily speaking, men with a preference
for the nulla paris breast shape, which which is the
shape indicating that the cave woman has not had cave babies,
would have had more reproductive success and also helpful hints
for those cave dudes. Also look out for signs like
(36:48):
a stroller, Um, like spit up stains on shirts. Yeah,
had they invented the wheel yet in this evolutionary biology
now it was just more of like a wooden slip
and you kind of pulled the baby along with bags
under the eyes suggesting that you know, you just haven't
got any sleep. Those Yeah, those are things, yeah, not
(37:09):
just the eyes up here, man. Yeah, so I'm staring
at my cave boobs. Yeah, don't leave my cave boobs.
Look in the cave eye bags. Because also, like back then,
wasn't their cave boob variety one would sake. But also
like presumably you lived in a community small enough, right,
like a tribe small enough that you would be like, oh, yeah,
(37:30):
cave Susie over there, cave Karen, cave Karen, cave Karen,
that cave with a cave. Yeah, has already had a
cave baby. You know, No paternity assurance is uh, it's
a driver of behavior. Yeah, apparently breast oggling. So anyway,
(37:50):
I hope you picked up on how important and how
yet skeptical we are about evo bio theory. I mean,
I have legitimately curious so out all of these kinds
of nuances. And I think that's why we give evo
bio sometimes a and oftentimes skeptical eye, just because it
seems so broadbrush. Yeah, of course, yes, well so we
(38:13):
we hopefully have gained some insight into cavemen. But what
accounts for plastic surgeons preferences? And that's something I had
not thought about. It had not crossed my mind, and
of course it should, I guess, but like it hadn't
crossed my mind that, oh, surgeons aren't just McDonald's where
you can like pull up and order what you want.
(38:35):
They have an opinion, like a view on how those
boobs are going to look at you order at the
drive through, although like McDonald's, you can't supersize it if
you have extra mindy to spend. Sing Yeah, well so.
According to June study and the Annals of Plastic Surgery, UH,
what is influencing surgeons preferences are their home country and
(38:56):
their age. So surgeon in India, the study author's note,
prefer the most upper breast fullness, while surgeons in France
prefer the least upper breast fullness in addition to smaller arials,
although Germans surgeons apparently prefer the smallest arial is of all.
(39:19):
It's just like two little molds, beauty marks like get
a little a Marie antoinette like heart shape. It's just
like Barbie boobs with sharpie nipples. Whereas you go somewhere else,
next thing, you know, dinner plate, Oh god, yeah, you
never know what you're gonna get. I guess it depends
(39:40):
on the country. Also quick note that if you're wondering,
the answer is yes, your nipples are normal, just period,
whatever they are. Look down, do you have them? They're fine?
Um age of the surgeon also influenced it. Older surgeons
tended to prefer less upper boob fullness with larger area
is and there is an implication to all this there
(40:02):
there is no universally accepted preferred boob size or shape
and we are at just but one point in time
in history, and therefore boob shape trends could shift. And
to me, that's funny to say, because but women's body
parts being part of a trend. But again, it's something
(40:23):
that we've talked about before, and I mean, I don't
have the gender stats on that study, but it feels
like a we've got some heateronormativity going on and be
that men are the tastemakers of what breast shape is
considered normal. Yeah. Um. The other bit of advice that
(40:46):
comes out of the study, of course, is that there
is a growing global uh basically like travel plastic surgery industry.
You know where you might go to Brazil for a
butt lift or you know, go to I don't somewhere
else for a nose job. But you should keep in
mind that depending on the country you go to for
your procedure, the doctor might have a different preference. Because
(41:10):
if you go to Germany. Tiny tiny, tiny areola, so
be prepared. Um. Yeah, And and doctors, they write, should
also be aware that, hey, not everybody wants either like
a super full Barbie boob or a super like quote
unquote natural teardrop shape. Everybody's gonna want something different, and
(41:30):
so therefore they warn consumers out there be careful of
anyone who touts an ideal breast shape, which leads us
directly into our next study, in which researchers have purported
to find the ideal breast shape. Oh, come on, science. Yeah,
so this is coming from a study from the Journal
(41:53):
of Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery, and they determined that a
forty five to fifty five ratio with of fullness above
the nipple line and below creating a slight tear drop
shape is the ideal breast silhouette. And this is based
on interviews with Americans. Yeah, so this was not an
(42:16):
international study. This study did include different genders, racist ethnic groups,
the whole nine yards. That's great, but it is still
just Americans. Um, so that is worth noting. But the
researchers were basically hoping that their results would serve as
a quote, visual guide for both patients and surgeons, the
(42:37):
in goal being to produce more acceptable, longer lasting results,
and ultimately more beautiful breasts. And then it's my face
with a bunch of question marks above it. Well, sure,
because obviously, you know, you have the cultural factors, which
absolutely makes sense because so much of our breast shape
is determined by our genes, so you're going to have
(42:59):
just probably different types of breasts around the world happening.
But then also you have the fact that boob shapes
are impacted by fashion trends, where you know, like like
we said, in the nine fifties and sixties, you have
the pointy um, the pointy boobs created by Cold War boobs,
(43:19):
the Cold War boobs just like a missile, and then
you have flatter breasts that might be more in style.
And the seventies yeah, and think, yeah, I think early
nineties you had people like Kate Moss who were the
height of fashion and beauty and she was very slim
with small, small chest, so not exactly the playboy bunny look.
(43:42):
And it is again it's funny to me that breasts
and their shape can be in style or not. Oh,
it makes total sense to me though, because it's like
how many ways can we inflict some body anxiety onto
breast and vagina havers? And that exact thing is what
(44:02):
Margaret Hartman was writing about over at Jezebel back in two.
She was talking about having read this Playboy spread that
looked at the evolution of preferred boob shapes over the years,
and you know, everything from boob shapes to body hair
and and everything in between. And she does tell a
story about how her mother was so like not accepting
(44:28):
of how her Margaret's boobs were shaped every time she
took her daughter bra shopping, because Margaret's mother grew up
in that era of your boobs are very high and
very missile shaped and at the ready and in your
and your super super shapy bra, whereas she was wearing
the more natural, like, go with the shape you're born
(44:49):
with kind of bra. And how those generational differences can
shape what we view as attractive and acceptable. And I
mean just the stereotypes that we attached to different kinds
of breast that we see in the wild. For instance, uh,
the maybe impulse to stereotype a woman who is walking
(45:09):
around brawls as, oh, well, she must be more of
a hippie whereas and I've heard this directly from actually
a lot of large busted women that they are judged
as less intelligent based on their their breast size and
are often talked down to noticeably, especially by dudes, um,
(45:31):
due to their boobs. Absolutely absolutely, um yeah, And I'm
so I'm just wondering, like, and this kind of circles
back to what you and I were talking about at
the top of the podcast in terms of like where
did we get the pathologizing of sagging boobs? Like where
did that originally come from? Because you know, in that
Jezebel piece, Margaret Hartman talks about how her mother finally
(45:54):
came out and was like, you'r but if you're not
wearing the you know, the super shaper bra, you're your
breast just hang too low, and it's like whoa, whoa
hang too low? Well, like, so if you're a middle
aged woman and you're concerned about what are really normal
breasts hanging too low, like, where did that idea come from?
(46:14):
I think it traces back to our ages. Um, honestly,
because it is true that the older that you are
and the more pregnancies you've had, which suggests that you
were probably older as well. The more ptosis your breasts
my um experience showcase. I'm not sure the correct verbs,
(46:37):
but I think that it's very much linked to our
devaluing of older women, because I mean, think about the
stereotypes of saggy boobs. It's unfeminine, it's unattractive. Oh your
boobs at your old, worn out, you've been around the block,
the boot block. Whereas it's just like these are just
it's just my breast issue of fat density ratios. So
(46:59):
then I wonder what came first that the doctor who said, here,
let me fix that for you, or the woman who said,
am I normal for having my boobs look that way?
You know, I it I your theory, Your explanation seems
to fit perfectly. It makes complete sense to me that
it just fits in with like, you know, we get
to a certain age and people start thinking about facelifts
(47:21):
or eyelifts, um, you know, all sorts of procedures and
creams and cures for aging. You know, people want to
look young and stay young, and not only for personal vanity,
but just on the basis of being devalued by society. Yeah,
I mean, we saw the same process happen with female
body hair where it started out with the just general pathologizing. Um.
(47:43):
I think they called it hypertrichosis, which was literally like
a made up term that the American Dermatological Society came
up with to just say, like, women who have body here,
if if we can see too much of it, then
that's a bad thing. You need to get rid of it.
And in terms of chicken egg questions, I comes up
so much with bikini waxing, where it's like how did
(48:04):
that store? Was it a seeing porn or you know,
someone telling us that we had too much hare what's
happening down there? Yeah? So, um, I'm interested to hear
from people who of of all ages definitely who have
either experienced a degree of breast sagging and felt fine
(48:28):
about it like I don't care, this is just my body,
or people who have felt really embarrassed about what's going
on with their boobs. Yeah. And the last thing I
want to do is invalidate or minimize people's emotions and
feelings about their body shape. If anything, we're just trying
to reinforce the fact that a lot of what women
are told are imperfections are just the ways that our
(48:49):
bodies work in in varied ways. But I mean, it's
it's totally fine to have feelings one way or the
other about your body. I just think it's really helpful
to better understand what influences literally legitimately influences the shapes
of our different body parts. Well, that's why I thought
(49:10):
it was so important to cite the one study that's like,
beware of anyone who tells you that there's an ideal
breast shape. With the study that this wasn't researcher saying
we have an ideal breast shape that we've created, more
that they were interviewing people out there in the wild
in the United States who said, we overwhelmingly male, female, young, old, black, white, Indian,
(49:33):
Asian whatever, we prefer this shape. Yeah, I mean, And
and the thing is, aesthetics are inherently subjective. Heart health
ideal heart health that is objective, that is a factual thing,
an ideal breast silhouette, um grain of salt. So listeners,
(49:54):
we can't wait to hear from you on this because
this is one of the things about stuff I never
told you I love the most, which is digging into
these questions that we might think are sort of unanswerable,
but if we dig hard enough, we got some facts.
So hopefully these facts were helpful, and we want to
know what you think about them. Mom Stuff at how
(50:14):
Stuff works dot com is our email address. You can
also tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook,
and we've got a couple of messages to share with
you when we come right back from a quick break
and now back to the show. All right, We've got
a couple of letters here in response to our Gymnastics
(50:36):
Gold episode. This one's from Kelly. She says, I really
enjoyed your podcast on the history of gymnastics and your
discussion about the role that race, class, and gender all
have and how we think about both gymnastics and gymnasts.
I was struck by the question what is driving Gabby
and Simone to be so humble and perhaps skeptical of
their abilities? Well, I think you all brought up some
(50:57):
good points and potential reasons why they could be hesitant
to call themselves to the world's greatest gymnasts. I would
also posit that race is once again rearing its ugly
head and how these girls see themselves, or, to borrow
from the sociological concept the looking glass self how they
perceive how others view them as a person of color.
I can attest to the fact that we often feel
(51:18):
the need to be twice as good as our non
person of color counterparts to receive the recognition we deserve.
We know quite keenly how our accomplishments can be discredited
for trivial reasons. Gabby and the criticism of her hair
is a good example, and so sometimes we don't really
believe in our excellence until it is confirmed by those
in power. I don't mean to speak for them or
(51:40):
project onto them things that they may not be grappling with,
but I did want to bring to light have people
of color who are breaking barriers in predominantly white institutions
can sometimes feel about our successes in those spaces. So
thank you, Kelly. And I've got a letter here from
Allison who writes, I can't believe my favorite podcast just
discussed my all time favorite sport. I did gymnastics growing
(52:02):
up and then competed inn C Double A Division three
gymnastics at m I T. I still mess around in
the gym sum and I am a huge follower of
n C Double A and elite gymnastics. As you mentioned,
Gabby Douglas and Simone Biles are amazing gymnasts. But I
also wanted you to show some love for Ali Raisman.
I think she's such a great ambassador for the sport.
(52:24):
She has spoken openly about learning to love her body
and her muscles. It's just such a positive message for girls.
You guys also mentioned some of the gendered commentary in gymnastics.
I never quite know how to feel when the commentators
discussed the women's leo's as in leotards. The men's leo's
are never discussed. Even in the beginning of the live
(52:45):
stream of the women's team finals for the Olympics, the
female commentator interrupted the male commentator's discussion of Team Usays
dominance to point out how she thought their leotards were
pretty ah. Focus on the awesomeness of the girl rolls,
not their leotard's. And one last fun fact, since you
have discovered the gymternet, there is an online fantasy gymnastics
(53:09):
league for n C double A Gymnastics. One of my
brilliant former teammates at m I T started the league
several years ago, and even the website design encoding herself. Allison,
I love that so much. I do not play fantasy football,
never will, but fantasy gymnastics I could get into that.
So now, listeners, we'd love to hear from you as well.
(53:30):
Mom stuff at how stuff works dot com is our
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(53:53):
this and thousands of other topics. Does it how stuff
works dot com. Six
Welcome to stuff Mom never told you. From how stupports
dot com. Hello, would welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen
and I'm Caroline, and today we're chuckling the science of
saggy boobs. That's right, it's just a part of life.
Ladies and gentlemen, boobs, they sag, yeah, you know. And
(00:26):
and the thing is people might hear, you know, the
science of saggy boobs and just safe ladies, ladies, ladies.
Just gravity, right, yeah, just that theory of gravity just
pulling down in your boobs, dan and day out. But
that's wrong, and those people think that those people are wrong.
I can see why you would think that. Sure, I mean,
(00:48):
gravity does pull things down, you know, yep, you know,
like if you take your bra off, let it go,
it will likely drop to the floor because that's gravity.
And that and if that's what Newton had discovered gravity through,
I realized I just like really screwed up the syntax
of that. But like, if a bra had fallen on
his head instead of an apple, Oh man, where was Newton?
(01:10):
He was having a good old time? Would he have
kept that secret? Although I guess it wouldn't have been
a bra back in his day, it would have been
like pantlets or of course, yeah, and you know, depending
on the type of course that it was, it might
have hurt even more than an apple for that. And
have you ever been hit in the face with whale bone?
How many times have I been hit in the face
(01:31):
with whalebone? Carolina constantly? It's weird here in the Sminty studio.
We just have old timey underpants always flying around. It's
like one of those you know, wind machines with the
money in it, just instead of it, just imagine like
paper bills flying around. There are corsets, whale bones, bras,
(01:53):
knitting nar walls. Yeah, we should really wear protective gear
in here. Honestly, I'm wearing my en sing outfit, so
my face is protected, buddy. So we're we are here.
We promised to talk about saggy boobs, not just the
things that hit us in the face on a daily basis. Well,
and maybe in order to get serious we should switch
(02:14):
from the colloquialism of saggy boobs and get more clinical
with tosis. Yes, which is a scientific term for bobs. Yes,
it's breast toosis. Because typically if you just searched for tosis,
you're just gonna get a saggy eyelid. Wait, is this
a Google image search? Yeah, well it's just a Google
(02:36):
in general, we'll point you more directly to the sagging
of the eyelid, eyelid tosis, But in this case, we're
talking about breast ptosis, breast toosis, breastosis, which does sound
like it should be like, all one word, what would
breastosis be? It almost sounds like halatosis. Oh, if you
have stinky boobs. Oh no, that can happen the sun.
(03:00):
Let's be honest, dude, I know, dude, I know. And
they're actually degrees of sag. There are six degrees of tosis,
like six degrees of separation from Kevin Bacon. There are
six degrees of your boobs sagging off your chest. And honestly,
I was somewhat disheartened to learn this because I feel
(03:20):
like it's just pathologizing our our tosis, which, by the way,
is felt like it looks like it could be pronounced potosis,
which I have pronounced a potosis before because that's more
fun to say. Um and uh. There are even diagrams,
helpful diagrams you can know just just what exactly is
not perfect about your own boobs. And we're looking at
(03:42):
one of those diagrams right now here in the studio,
and uh, it's a it's a white lady with some
brown hair shown of course in a profile with their
their breast just one boob. You can only see one
of her boobs. And I was gonna say a uni
boob instead of a unich horn. But uni boob is
the thing when you wear like a two tight sports bra.
(04:03):
Or is that mono boob? I think mono boob uni boob.
I think they're synonymous listeners let us know for wrong anyway,
but don't let me in her rupt or maybe she's
an Amazon, you know. Oh yeah, because she lopped off
her other boob so she could better shoot arrows. There
we go, anyway. And this highly scientific tosis diagram shows
(04:26):
this uh like lady clone essentially flopping each of her
single boobs over a tight rope to to evaluate what
angle her nipple points to. Yeah, and I mean they
point out what is quote unquote normal as being regardless
(04:48):
of your boob size and shape, it's when the nipple
and the bulk of the tissue sits above the crease
that's under your boob a k. The inframamary fold. But
you know, Christen and I had a discussion a while
back about like, well, wait, wait, wait wait, if if
it's a boob, it's normal. Like boobs are normal, your size,
(05:08):
your shape, wherever they're pointing, if they're askew, if they're
cross whatever, they're normal. Even if you've got three or
four more. Yeah, if you have a whole row of them, whatever,
it's you, it's normal. Um. And so jumping off of that,
I actually tried to search online dig up some information
on like, Okay, boobs have always been around, and therefore
(05:32):
they've always stagged at some point or another to one
degree or another. So who came up with this like
sagging ptosis diagram here where it does look like these
drawings of women they've just draped their boobs over like
a ballet bar. Yeah, and I couldn't. I couldn't find
anything because I just wanted to know. In everything we study,
(05:52):
there's always an origin story, right of like someone who
quote unquote discovered the condition pathologized it, like wrote the
diagram and all the rules, and whether it's something that
like legitimately needs to be treated by a doctor, or
whether it's something that just women feel insecure about and
they don't need to feel insecure about it. But I
couldn't find any any like tosis treatment origin story. Uh,
(06:15):
you know, I think it's a solid bet that it
was a dude. And I would love slash not love
to meet the guy who you know, leaves the work
rushes to the bar to meet up with his friends.
And it's like dudes Illa discovered discovered saggy breast today
it was it was me I discovered them. Well, let's
(06:38):
like our episode on the CLITTERI is about men discovering
the clitter is like they had just struck gold in
California anyway. So I'm sorry I don't have that information
for you listeners. I would love to provide it. Yeah,
And I mean, if anyone knows that the origin of
this diagram, there's got to be someone, like we have
some really smart listeners. Well, the thing is too, as
(06:59):
we're going to talk about in the second half of
the podcast, it the answer might be many different probably men,
and I say probably men because of course the earliest
doctors were men. But as we'll talk about more, there
is a cultural lens through which our definition of normal
boob is defined or portrayed or interpreted or depicted in
(07:23):
helpful cartoons like this one that we're looking at. Um.
So once you start sagging, you've got grades one to
three of boob saggage, one being mild, three being severe. Uh.
Then you have something called parenchymal mal distribution, which to
me sounds like a Harry Potter spell. Um, but it's
basically when your boob has a quote unquote unusual shape. Um.
(07:48):
They define it as a lack of fullness in the
lower part of the breast, a high inframamory fold so
that ballet bar would be real high up under your boob,
and a short infra memory fold to nipple distance. So
there's that. I mean, I think it's now tempting in
(08:08):
the same way that you can practice like the eyeliner
liquid liner winged look by putting an index card, you know,
up against your eye as a guide. I'm now tempted
to take an index card to my boob and see
what what what my line is? I did? I did
(08:29):
stand sideways in the mirror after after this to be like,
you know, I I don't know if my boobs are
are hanging low. If they're wobbling to and fro, can
you tie them in a knot? Can you tie them
in a bow? So I stood to the side and
and looks like everything is above the infra memory fold.
Excellent news. So you would get a grade one? Uh No,
(08:50):
I think I'd be normal. I'm not sagging. Oh you
don't get great at all. See you know what as
a real grade rubber in school? I would like you.
You would want to be an INN for normal? What
about an A for aspirational awesome? Boobs? Bob? And I'm
an a b um. There are some distinctions though, because yeah,
(09:17):
I bet y'all didn't know that you can get this
deep into Saggy breasts are welcome, Oh boy. There are
a lot of nuances, such as toss shouldn't be confused
with atrophy, which is simply the loss or shrinking of
tissue from lack of use, and of course that applies
to any type of tissue, not just your breast, such
(09:38):
as um if you wear a cast. I don't know
why this always tickles me. Someone wearing a cast and
takes when they finally get it removed, their arms all
shriveled and pale from why does it disuse? Why does
it tickle you? Like I said, I don't know, You're like, hey,
I love when you have a shrunken limp, Like you
get a little little baby arm like that Kristen Wig
(10:03):
character on SNL. But those are like baby hands anyway. Um,
but anyway, you've also got false SAgs. So like we're
never safe because you either have real SAG stage one
to three or you've got false SAG which can actually
then lead to real sag ortosis. This is also named pseudotosis,
which is the fancy name for false SAG. And this
(10:26):
is coming from and actually kind of great website. So
you know how like when you're convinced that something's wrong
with you and you're dying, you got to web m
D and you're like, I don't know what it is,
and you just convince yourself that it's cancer. Well, there
is a website out there where actual, real medical professionals
can respond to your concerns. And this particular website was
one for plastic surgery and cosmetic surgery concerns. And a
(10:50):
woman had posted pictures of her breasts and was like,
do I have atrophy or tosis what's going on? And
doctors Donald W. Kress and Lorie Salt actually gave her
some great answers, and they pointed out that she had pseudotosis.
And they explained that this occurs when those anchoring ligaments
of the breast that you know, attach them to your chest,
(11:11):
your Cooper's ligamat Yeah, Cooper's ligaments are still intact, so
that the support structure is still there, but the breast
itself has defilated like a sad birthday balloon on Monday morning.
And they explain that pseudotosis is not true atosis because
going back to our cartoon diagram, the nipple is still
(11:32):
at or above that inframamary fold even though the lower
part of the breast is sagging. So their final diagnosis
is what, um that you should go get a breast
lift and an implant. Of course. Yeah. See, I wish
that we could set up our own website like this.
(11:53):
People can send us their photos of you know, the
their their volva's or breasts or whatever of you know,
the female anatomy, their cankles. Congratulations, you're normal and human. Yeah,
everyone would just get a gold star and just be like, yeah, snow,
you get a Snowflake award because they would get an
end for normal. I mean because if pseudo toasis is
(12:15):
a thing, like you said, we can never win. And
also I'm going to take issue with their whole Cooper's
ligaments reference because there is controversy over whether those Cooper's
ligaments are really supporting the breast, because a lot of
doctors today think that Cooper's ligaments merely divide our breasts
into compartments, kind of like when you peel an orange,
(12:38):
you have those uh oh wow, that face that Caroline
is making it was incredible. Imagine imagine your boobs an
orange and your Cooper's ligaments are like the those what
this is like the white things, the fiber. It's pith,
That's what it's the the orange. Pith divides the fruit
(12:59):
into the wedge. Is kind of like our Cooper's likamens
do for our breasts. Interesting, I'm learning so much today
and that should be a song. You boob is lack
an ounge, people, girl, it's just the pith. You're the
pithyist um. Okay, Well, so people are dying to know
what causes it, then, well we're going to tease them
(13:19):
a little bit more and first tell them what doesn't
cause it. That's right, because there are a lot of
assumptions out there that, like you hit on one at
the beginning. Gravity. Everybody seems it's just gravity that you
get old and gravity takes its toll and your boobs
hit the floor. And of course gravity contributes to that.
But it's a myth that it's only gravity. Also a
(13:41):
myth that breastfeeding will make your boob stack. Yeah, there
have been several recent studies that have myth busted that
it's not breastfeeding alone. It's well, I mean pregnancy though, well,
we'll mess with it, but not the act of breastfeeding. Yeah.
It's also a myth that pregnancy weighting by itself is
a major risk actor fortoss weight gain and maintaining a
(14:03):
higher weight is to a degree, but not pregnancy weight
gains specifically. And the idea that if you don't exercise
enough for your upper body that that will somehow cause
boob saggage. Not so. And also a big one that
we need to knock out is the question of two
bra or not too bra and whether that influences how
(14:23):
much your boobs will sag. Because some listeners might remember
a French study that went viral a few years ago,
which based on a very small sample size, found a
correlation between wearing a bra and sagg ear breasts. And
of course, because the internet and um science quote unquote
reporting is what it is, headlines abounded claiming take off
(14:48):
your braws, they're making your breast sag and in fact
that was not what the study authors were claiming at all.
There's no way that you can extrapolate such a conclusion
as that, and wearing braw or not wearing a bra
probably will have no impact whatsoever on how much your
breasts will toasis will test a size toast um. Okay,
(15:13):
but things that are big risk factors. Let's start off
with aging, right because aging, in general, you see the
skin and its support structures start to lose its elasticity
over time, and so in the same vein, things that
speed up aging could also potentially speed up the saggage
of your boobage. Things like smoking and sun tanning. In
(15:37):
other words, anything that breaks down skins collagen and the
protein alastin which helps, you know, make you all bouncy
and youthful and shiny as a young person. Anything that
breaks down that good helpful stuff is going to contribute
to your skin in general, and also your breast tissue sagging.
And of course weight will affect the shape and size
(15:59):
of our breast, So things like significant weight loss, higher
b m I s and larger brock cup sizes are
associated with more atosis because when you gain weight, for instance,
your skin and internal support structures may stretch, and conversely,
when you lose weight, your boobs might sag if you
(16:20):
don't have enough elasticity to regain their shape. Yeah, and
not pregnancy itself, but the number of pregnancies overall is
related to ptosis. So basically, during pregnancy, your breath become
engorged while you're pregnant and then nursing, and then they
decrease in size and droop and this droopage, saggage, tosi,
(16:42):
sage gets worse with every pregnancy. But the factors if
we just look at an isolated boob away from these
like in the wild, yes, bob in the wild. Away
from these contributing factors such as weight gainer loss, or
pregnancy or smoking, the main things that will determine how
(17:03):
how perky your breasts are or are not. Where your
nipples are pointing where it hangs over that tight rope
are your amount of skin elasticity, and really the ratio
of your breast tissue to fat. And the higher ratio
you have of that, the firmer and perkier they will be,
(17:24):
so higher on the breast tissue, lower on the fat. Yeah.
And one reason, big reason why we, you know, experience
stosis as we age is because as we get older,
a lot of that breast tissue is converted to fat.
So our breast just get fattier over time. That's really
what's happening. And for as much stress as we might
(17:48):
feel and put on ourselves about our own personal tosis,
it's all in our genes. We can't really fight it,
just like cellulite. I mean those two like the left
city and your breast density, that all traces back to
your jeans. Yes, yeah, So look at your mom, look
(18:08):
at your grandma, look at your dad, look at you,
look at your dad, look at your dad, and then
look to your future and then get that index card.
Draw a line from your intra memory fold to your nipple,
get your boob tight rope. I love this. I love
this little cartoon even more now that you said that,
now that I imagine, it's just like a little boob circus.
All right, lady flop Amova, let's see dot um. We
(18:33):
didn't mention that there is one other cause, and that's
congenital sagging. And that's when girls, young girls who are
developing breasts. Originally, when they developed breasts, that sag with
downward pointing nipples, which again that just sounds to me like, oh,
you just developed breasts, yeah, and yours point. They're looking
in a different direction than maybe your best friends are. Yeah.
(18:56):
Who what were we talking about? What episode was it
and us Free the Nipple where we mentioned some cultures
where it's super common to sunbathe nude or go to
the spa nude or whatever, on and on and on
and how in those societies women tend to report higher
levels of body confidence because they're they're simply more used
(19:18):
to seeing other women's bodies and knowing that all of
these variations on a theme are normal. Yeah, they see
more breasts in the wild. I mean, seriously, if you
want to give your can we get Richard Attenborough? Is
it Richard or David? I guess David Attenborough one of
the Attenborough's to narrate that documentary Breast in the Wild
(19:38):
and he lecy through the No, I'll just pay you instead, Okay, okay, sold.
But we need to take a closer look at the
pregnancy factor because there was a study from in the
Annals of Plastic Surgery which found of patients who had
(19:58):
been pregnant, at least one reported adverse changes in breast
shape after pregnancy. Yeah, so I guess there something that
is normal, which is your breasts changing shape, your your
whole body is changing shape throughout your life. But I mean,
I guess that can be a bummer if you're not
expecting it well. And it to me, it reminds me
(20:21):
of our conversations on your so called pre baby body
and trying to get that back and the fact that we,
I think, just like culturally are blind to how pregnancy
just naturally changes a woman's body and it's not like
there's a body of ours that we like left behind
like a coat somewhere to gross skin suit. Um. Yeah,
(20:46):
along those same lines, I mean, everything you just said
sounds so nice and normal and comforting that I did
find a terrifyingly worded study from the British Journal of
Plastic surgery, which said end I quote pregnancy and lactation
maybe followed by a total collapse of the structure of
the breasts, particularly if an unusual degree of enlargement takes place.
(21:06):
That sounds horrifying, right, a total collapse of the structure
of the breast. Yeah, I'm I'm just imagining like a
building demolition, Like those are your boobs, It's about to happen.
They're imploding. You give birth and a cloud of dust
goes up from your chest. It's the worst. I apologize
to everything. That's one thing that we never talked about
in the delivery room or the exploding breast, you know,
(21:29):
everywhere everywhere. That's why those surgeons have to wear yeah,
some protective I wear. Yeah. Well, so what is going
on with this supposed collapse of boob structure? So basically,
you've got all of the enlargement that happens thanks to
your pregnant body, uh, that stretches and disrupts those Cooper's
(21:50):
ligaments allegedly Allegedly, I am such a Cooper's ligaments skeptic
over interesting, we should do a specific episode about Cooper's ligaments.
I had no idea. So all that enlargement also stretches
the skin, which can contribute to wrinkles, stretch marks, and
again loss of support, which leads to this thing called
postpartum involution. You might also know the word involution from
(22:12):
another post pregnancy thing, which is when your uterus shrinks
back down. Uh, involution just means the shrinkage of an organ,
and so the same thing is happening in your boobs.
So I wonder though again, and if there is anyone
listening who knows the answer, please tell me, because this
is one of those issues where there is not a
(22:34):
ton of reliable information, especially if you're going through Google.
It's a lot of plastic surgery website and a lot
of Yahoo answers, and a lot of Yahoo answers, and
a lot of older academic or scientific studies that are
very hard for my brain to get through. And I
don't mean to disparage myself. I simply mean that, like,
(22:54):
I don't know what it's saying. Oh yeah, Well, in
the nineties seventies, UH, there were a number of doctors
who were concerned about the braw less trend at the
time and how it might affect women's breast because this
is also a period when most doctors you would see
would be men too. Um And I want to say
(23:16):
that it might have been in the American Medical Association
Journal where there was a fantastic um uh letter exchange
from doctors just very worried about women's braw less breasts.
That is such a good point, that makes so much
sense because a lot of the studies that I did
(23:38):
find that we're kind of in depth. I didn't want
to review two closely because they were from the seventies.
And so you know, in any episode that you and
I do where we are talking about health stuff, you
never want to rely on something that's really old. You
want to like try to get the latest information. So
I sort of was like, why is there all this
stuff from the seventies. I'm not going to read all
(23:58):
this stuff. I mean, I have a only that that
is the first time that doctors really started paying closer
attention to women's breast well. I mean, I wonder if
it's the first time that everybody was seeing boobs not
in their like rocket shaped braziers, in the pointy braziers
of the um well. I mean, because similar to how
(24:21):
we are still learning things about the internal structures of
our vaginas and clitterisas we've been studying breasts only slightly longer.
I mean, it wasn't until the nineteen nineties that researchers
started to figure out the biomechanics of how female breasts
move around. So is there any boob science scientists out there?
(24:44):
I would like to hear from you and know what
the state of your research is, because I think we
need more of it, because I want that Cooper's ligaments
questions settled once and for all. Well, I know, and
and and I'm glad you brought it up because I
legitimately had not read anything that questioned the role of
the Cooper's ligaments. That's what I'm here for, I know,
to contribute things about ligament calling out shoddy bob science,
(25:07):
shoddytosis troubles. Yeah, talk about some pseudotosis. That's right, ladies,
Um okay, Well, so when euce does involution occur? Well,
in the next big hormonal stage of our life, menopause,
the fund never stops. So as women age and especially
(25:27):
after menopause, our milk producing glands in our breasts called
lobules close up shop. They pack up, they head home.
Did they move to Florida like other old folks. Yeah,
we'll move into Florida, getting all lobules and our suitcases
and we're going to Florida. Ah. This is called lobular
regression or lobular involution. And it's interesting to see that
(25:51):
both hormone replacement therapy and prior pregnancies do affect the
progression of involution. So went three of women in this
one study who had never used hormone replacement therapy experienced
complete involution Compared with just of the women who had
(26:12):
undergone hormone replacement therapy, seven percent of women who had
never had children experienced complete boob shrinkage involution. Sorry, I
don't mean to be glib. Compared with just eight of
the women who had had four children, they found that
women who had had more than three kids ended up
retaining more lobules. Okay, So why did I just throw
(26:34):
all that at you? Why did I just read those
statistics about lobs some lobule facts. There we go. Um,
it's to talk about breast cancer. Sorry for the tone shift,
but basically, according to the Mayo Clinic in two thousand six,
women who experienced complete involution of the breast had half
(26:58):
the risk of breast can there than those who don't.
And that makes sense because breast cancer is thought to
originate in our lobules, so people who have smaller and
or fewer lobules are at a lower risk. And of
course this is not the only factor when it comes
to breast cancer. Of course there are more factors, because
I know that. When I was reading this, I was
(27:18):
confused for a minute because I thought, well, wait, I
always thought that pregnancy itself was a protective factor, that
the more pregnancies you did have, the lower your chance
for breast cancer. But that's just another hormonal piece of
the breast cancer puzzle. So I, by no means want
to indicate that like, if you never have kids and
never use hormone replacement therapy, you're going to be totally fine,
(27:41):
because obviously there's more to it than that. But those
are some interesting tidbits. So this is all of a
signs and all of these factors that can influence the
shape of our breast. But of course we are often
sold so many ideas about how our breasts should look
and steps that we can take to make them look
(28:04):
like those aspirational boobs, and we're going to talk about
that when we come right back from a quick break.
All right, so listen, there is no amount, no amount
(28:24):
in the world of push ups or pull ups or
rowing or anything that's gonna give you big, perky boobs. Yeah,
exercises cannot influence the shape of your breasts, which is
unfortunate for people who have read Are you there got
to see Margaret The exercise she does for you. Must
(28:45):
you must, you must increase your bust of what is it?
You put your push your palms together and flex. We're
doing it right now, listeners in the studio. We're flexing
our pecks. We are we are flexing the peck. Yes, yeah,
Because all of those exercises you do to benefit your
bust um, to boost the bust. It's gonna boost your
(29:08):
pectoral muscles, which are under your breasts, but it's not
going to lift or firm those sacks of breast tissue
and fat that sit on top of the pectoral muscles.
Our sacks are just our sacks, you know. We've just
got sacks of facts too. Nice but nonetheless, in the
(29:32):
same way that there are myriad exercises and creams and
pills that we can supposedly take to erase our cellulite.
Same goes for all sorts of herbs and creams that
are supposed to firm and smooth our breasts. But the
thing is, anything topical that you rub all over your
(29:53):
boobs is not going to magically seep in and restructure
your tissue or that density of fat tissue to breast tissue.
And the thing is, if it could, the FDA might
be a little concerned. Yeah, And if it, yeah, exactly,
and if it does promise to do that, you can
pretty much rest a shirt. It's fake. And that if,
(30:14):
like you said, if it was real, if it did exist,
it would cost a million dollars and probably be sold
by one of those fancy lisition companies that celebrities always
tout in magazines like La Prairie or Lamare that sell
for like over three dollars, so they could sell like
la boob la boob, La boo bay, La boo bay.
(30:36):
But yeah, breast assured, it won't work. Have you been
holding onto that one? It just came to my mind
and I just wanted to make sure I used it
before it evaporated. Um. And again, the whole broth factor
isn't going to fix in quotes or prevent any toastis. Although,
(30:57):
as we're going to talk about in our next episode
titled sports boobs, sports bras are very important to where
during exercise because when we run around, our breast don't
just bounce up and down or side to side. They
oscillate in a figure eight motion. And it's it's just
good for our breast tissue to keep them supported with
(31:20):
sports bra it hurts. Oh yeah, boob bouncing hurts a
lot um act in fact. Okay, well, so there are
things that are helpful when it comes to I don't
even breast help breast aging, like to keep them happy
and healthy as they age. And it's really like the
(31:43):
same advice for keeping your whole being happy and healthy
as you age, which is like eat healthy, drink lots
of water, get physical activity and quit smoking and watch
sun tanning. Yes, watch sun tanning, watch your eight all
of those basic things I mean. And when it does
come to surgery, and I wavered on whether to even
(32:06):
talk about this because it's I don't want to appear
to be like encouraging surgery. But I did get this
information from go ask Alice, which is the Columbia University
Columbia University advice site that has all great things to
say in terms of body advice, health advice, sex advice
is fabulous. I was like, Wow, left, go ask Alice
skin talk about it. We can talk about it well.
(32:28):
And breast lifts and reductions are like physically necessary for
a lot of women. I mean, I know women who
have really large breasts who are either saving up for
reduction surgeries are still kind of debating it just because
it's it can be tough to get around and certainly
exercise and stay healthy. Yeah, for sure. So as far
(32:49):
as the surgical options for TOSASCO, you can get breastleft
surgery that removes extra skin and extra breast tissue. It
also tightens and lifts the remaining skin, and or can
involve getting implants as well. But this is really only
a stop gap because your ligaments and your skin it's
going to stretch again over time, and so that newly
(33:10):
perky pair is still just going to start looking down
to the floor eventually. And it also is worth keeping
in mind as the Go ask Alice people point out
that if you are just thinking about getting implants because
you feel like your breasts are sagging too, far, that's
still only going to fill them out, it's not going
to lift Yeah, I mean, and I think that this
(33:33):
is where we get to the question of whether we
are more motivated by cosmetic appearance, which obviously, like, there's
nothing wrong with being concerned about how your breasts look.
I think it's it's a natural thing. Um. But if
you're looking for surgery purely for cosmetics because we think
our breasts should look a certain way, or if our
(33:56):
ptosis is causing us physical pain and problems, and probably
sussing out the two is even more challenging because there are,
you know, so many layers to what we think our
breasts should look like. Because of course there's our personal taste,
maybe our sexual partners personal taste, what we might see
(34:18):
in pornography, um, and just societally what um, what we're
taught looks good, yeah, or what we thought looked good
when we were cave people. Oh, yes, there's always the
cave people. I feel like we need a bell or
we need some sort of sound effect to indicate when
(34:38):
we're about to talk about evolutionary biology theory because we
always do and I always like, I always like it,
and also raise an eyebrow at it because it always
makes sense to degree, but I'm always I always make
sure to like remain a little bit skeptical. Um, but
(34:59):
boobs are a different when it comes to having an
EVO bio theory around them and our preferences for their shape.
There was a study in the journal Plastic and Reconstructive
Surgery Global Open that talked about how relative youth and
physical appearance provide clues to youth and fecundity basically like
(35:21):
ability to pop out babies. Uh, and if a woman
has farmed out the baby making job to a cave
dude already, because other cave dudes want to be able
to tell like, am I going to get a cave
woman who is ready to make babies? Or has she
already made babies? So essentially the evo bio explanation for
(35:43):
us even worrying all about how our breast look is
that cave people presumed that perky breasts meant someone had
not been he hadn't yet had kids, but would make
but that she's a wonderful womb. She would make a
wonderful womb. Uh. Yeah, that's a perfect way to put it. Basically,
(36:04):
that she's clearly young and healthy, but has not farmed
out the cave daddy responsibilities yet. Um it sounds like
a is that like a task rabbit thing that you
can do these days? Um? So the researchers right that
the post pregnancy breast shape is a major sign of
previous childbearing. In fact, this may be the only visual
(36:27):
sign of previous pregnancies. Evolutionarily speaking, men with a preference
for the nulla paris breast shape, which which is the
shape indicating that the cave woman has not had cave babies,
would have had more reproductive success and also helpful hints
for those cave dudes. Also look out for signs like
(36:48):
a stroller, Um, like spit up stains on shirts. Yeah,
had they invented the wheel yet in this evolutionary biology
now it was just more of like a wooden slip
and you kind of pulled the baby along with bags
under the eyes suggesting that you know, you just haven't
got any sleep. Those Yeah, those are things, yeah, not
(37:09):
just the eyes up here, man. Yeah, so I'm staring
at my cave boobs. Yeah, don't leave my cave boobs.
Look in the cave eye bags. Because also, like back then,
wasn't their cave boob variety one would sake. But also
like presumably you lived in a community small enough, right,
like a tribe small enough that you would be like, oh, yeah,
(37:30):
cave Susie over there, cave Karen, cave Karen, cave Karen,
that cave with a cave. Yeah, has already had a
cave baby. You know, No paternity assurance is uh, it's
a driver of behavior. Yeah, apparently breast oggling. So anyway,
(37:50):
I hope you picked up on how important and how
yet skeptical we are about evo bio theory. I mean,
I have legitimately curious so out all of these kinds
of nuances. And I think that's why we give evo
bio sometimes a and oftentimes skeptical eye, just because it
seems so broadbrush. Yeah, of course, yes, well so we
(38:13):
we hopefully have gained some insight into cavemen. But what
accounts for plastic surgeons preferences? And that's something I had
not thought about. It had not crossed my mind, and
of course it should, I guess, but like it hadn't
crossed my mind that, oh, surgeons aren't just McDonald's where
you can like pull up and order what you want.
(38:35):
They have an opinion, like a view on how those
boobs are going to look at you order at the
drive through, although like McDonald's, you can't supersize it if
you have extra mindy to spend. Sing Yeah, well so.
According to June study and the Annals of Plastic Surgery, UH,
what is influencing surgeons preferences are their home country and
(38:56):
their age. So surgeon in India, the study author's note,
prefer the most upper breast fullness, while surgeons in France
prefer the least upper breast fullness in addition to smaller arials,
although Germans surgeons apparently prefer the smallest arial is of all.
(39:19):
It's just like two little molds, beauty marks like get
a little a Marie antoinette like heart shape. It's just
like Barbie boobs with sharpie nipples. Whereas you go somewhere else,
next thing, you know, dinner plate, Oh god, yeah, you
never know what you're gonna get. I guess it depends
(39:40):
on the country. Also quick note that if you're wondering,
the answer is yes, your nipples are normal, just period,
whatever they are. Look down, do you have them? They're fine?
Um age of the surgeon also influenced it. Older surgeons
tended to prefer less upper boob fullness with larger area
is and there is an implication to all this there
(40:02):
there is no universally accepted preferred boob size or shape
and we are at just but one point in time
in history, and therefore boob shape trends could shift. And
to me, that's funny to say, because but women's body
parts being part of a trend. But again, it's something
(40:23):
that we've talked about before, and I mean, I don't
have the gender stats on that study, but it feels
like a we've got some heateronormativity going on and be
that men are the tastemakers of what breast shape is
considered normal. Yeah. Um. The other bit of advice that
(40:46):
comes out of the study, of course, is that there
is a growing global uh basically like travel plastic surgery industry.
You know where you might go to Brazil for a
butt lift or you know, go to I don't somewhere
else for a nose job. But you should keep in
mind that depending on the country you go to for
your procedure, the doctor might have a different preference. Because
(41:10):
if you go to Germany. Tiny tiny, tiny areola, so
be prepared. Um. Yeah, And and doctors, they write, should
also be aware that, hey, not everybody wants either like
a super full Barbie boob or a super like quote
unquote natural teardrop shape. Everybody's gonna want something different, and
(41:30):
so therefore they warn consumers out there be careful of
anyone who touts an ideal breast shape, which leads us
directly into our next study, in which researchers have purported
to find the ideal breast shape. Oh, come on, science. Yeah,
so this is coming from a study from the Journal
(41:53):
of Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery, and they determined that a
forty five to fifty five ratio with of fullness above
the nipple line and below creating a slight tear drop
shape is the ideal breast silhouette. And this is based
on interviews with Americans. Yeah, so this was not an
(42:16):
international study. This study did include different genders, racist ethnic groups,
the whole nine yards. That's great, but it is still
just Americans. Um, so that is worth noting. But the
researchers were basically hoping that their results would serve as
a quote, visual guide for both patients and surgeons, the
(42:37):
in goal being to produce more acceptable, longer lasting results,
and ultimately more beautiful breasts. And then it's my face
with a bunch of question marks above it. Well, sure,
because obviously, you know, you have the cultural factors, which
absolutely makes sense because so much of our breast shape
is determined by our genes, so you're going to have
(42:59):
just probably different types of breasts around the world happening.
But then also you have the fact that boob shapes
are impacted by fashion trends, where you know, like like
we said, in the nine fifties and sixties, you have
the pointy um, the pointy boobs created by Cold War boobs,
(43:19):
the Cold War boobs just like a missile, and then
you have flatter breasts that might be more in style.
And the seventies yeah, and think, yeah, I think early
nineties you had people like Kate Moss who were the
height of fashion and beauty and she was very slim
with small, small chest, so not exactly the playboy bunny look.
(43:42):
And it is again it's funny to me that breasts
and their shape can be in style or not. Oh,
it makes total sense to me though, because it's like
how many ways can we inflict some body anxiety onto
breast and vagina havers? And that exact thing is what
(44:02):
Margaret Hartman was writing about over at Jezebel back in two.
She was talking about having read this Playboy spread that
looked at the evolution of preferred boob shapes over the years,
and you know, everything from boob shapes to body hair
and and everything in between. And she does tell a
story about how her mother was so like not accepting
(44:28):
of how her Margaret's boobs were shaped every time she
took her daughter bra shopping, because Margaret's mother grew up
in that era of your boobs are very high and
very missile shaped and at the ready and in your
and your super super shapy bra, whereas she was wearing
the more natural, like, go with the shape you're born
(44:49):
with kind of bra. And how those generational differences can
shape what we view as attractive and acceptable. And I
mean just the stereotypes that we attached to different kinds
of breast that we see in the wild. For instance, uh,
the maybe impulse to stereotype a woman who is walking
(45:09):
around brawls as, oh, well, she must be more of
a hippie whereas and I've heard this directly from actually
a lot of large busted women that they are judged
as less intelligent based on their their breast size and
are often talked down to noticeably, especially by dudes, um,
(45:31):
due to their boobs. Absolutely absolutely, um yeah, And I'm
so I'm just wondering, like, and this kind of circles
back to what you and I were talking about at
the top of the podcast in terms of like where
did we get the pathologizing of sagging boobs? Like where
did that originally come from? Because you know, in that
Jezebel piece, Margaret Hartman talks about how her mother finally
(45:54):
came out and was like, you'r but if you're not
wearing the you know, the super shaper bra, you're your
breast just hang too low, and it's like whoa, whoa
hang too low? Well, like, so if you're a middle
aged woman and you're concerned about what are really normal
breasts hanging too low, like, where did that idea come from?
(46:14):
I think it traces back to our ages. Um, honestly,
because it is true that the older that you are
and the more pregnancies you've had, which suggests that you
were probably older as well. The more ptosis your breasts
my um experience showcase. I'm not sure the correct verbs,
(46:37):
but I think that it's very much linked to our
devaluing of older women, because I mean, think about the
stereotypes of saggy boobs. It's unfeminine, it's unattractive. Oh your
boobs at your old, worn out, you've been around the block,
the boot block. Whereas it's just like these are just
it's just my breast issue of fat density ratios. So
(46:59):
then I wonder what came first that the doctor who said, here,
let me fix that for you, or the woman who said,
am I normal for having my boobs look that way?
You know, I it I your theory, Your explanation seems
to fit perfectly. It makes complete sense to me that
it just fits in with like, you know, we get
to a certain age and people start thinking about facelifts
(47:21):
or eyelifts, um, you know, all sorts of procedures and
creams and cures for aging. You know, people want to
look young and stay young, and not only for personal vanity,
but just on the basis of being devalued by society. Yeah,
I mean, we saw the same process happen with female
body hair where it started out with the just general pathologizing. Um.
(47:43):
I think they called it hypertrichosis, which was literally like
a made up term that the American Dermatological Society came
up with to just say, like, women who have body here,
if if we can see too much of it, then
that's a bad thing. You need to get rid of it.
And in terms of chicken egg questions, I comes up
so much with bikini waxing, where it's like how did
(48:04):
that store? Was it a seeing porn or you know,
someone telling us that we had too much hare what's
happening down there? Yeah? So, um, I'm interested to hear
from people who of of all ages definitely who have
either experienced a degree of breast sagging and felt fine
(48:28):
about it like I don't care, this is just my body,
or people who have felt really embarrassed about what's going
on with their boobs. Yeah. And the last thing I
want to do is invalidate or minimize people's emotions and
feelings about their body shape. If anything, we're just trying
to reinforce the fact that a lot of what women
are told are imperfections are just the ways that our
(48:49):
bodies work in in varied ways. But I mean, it's
it's totally fine to have feelings one way or the
other about your body. I just think it's really helpful
to better understand what influences literally legitimately influences the shapes
of our different body parts. Well, that's why I thought
(49:10):
it was so important to cite the one study that's like,
beware of anyone who tells you that there's an ideal
breast shape. With the study that this wasn't researcher saying
we have an ideal breast shape that we've created, more
that they were interviewing people out there in the wild
in the United States who said, we overwhelmingly male, female, young, old, black, white, Indian,
(49:33):
Asian whatever, we prefer this shape. Yeah, I mean, And
and the thing is, aesthetics are inherently subjective. Heart health
ideal heart health that is objective, that is a factual thing,
an ideal breast silhouette, um grain of salt. So listeners,
(49:54):
we can't wait to hear from you on this because
this is one of the things about stuff I never
told you I love the most, which is digging into
these questions that we might think are sort of unanswerable,
but if we dig hard enough, we got some facts.
So hopefully these facts were helpful, and we want to
know what you think about them. Mom Stuff at how
(50:14):
Stuff works dot com is our email address. You can
also tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook,
and we've got a couple of messages to share with
you when we come right back from a quick break
and now back to the show. All right, We've got
a couple of letters here in response to our Gymnastics
(50:36):
Gold episode. This one's from Kelly. She says, I really
enjoyed your podcast on the history of gymnastics and your
discussion about the role that race, class, and gender all
have and how we think about both gymnastics and gymnasts.
I was struck by the question what is driving Gabby
and Simone to be so humble and perhaps skeptical of
their abilities? Well, I think you all brought up some
(50:57):
good points and potential reasons why they could be hesitant
to call themselves to the world's greatest gymnasts. I would
also posit that race is once again rearing its ugly
head and how these girls see themselves, or, to borrow
from the sociological concept the looking glass self how they
perceive how others view them as a person of color.
I can attest to the fact that we often feel
(51:18):
the need to be twice as good as our non
person of color counterparts to receive the recognition we deserve.
We know quite keenly how our accomplishments can be discredited
for trivial reasons. Gabby and the criticism of her hair
is a good example, and so sometimes we don't really
believe in our excellence until it is confirmed by those
in power. I don't mean to speak for them or
(51:40):
project onto them things that they may not be grappling with,
but I did want to bring to light have people
of color who are breaking barriers in predominantly white institutions
can sometimes feel about our successes in those spaces. So
thank you, Kelly. And I've got a letter here from
Allison who writes, I can't believe my favorite podcast just
discussed my all time favorite sport. I did gymnastics growing
(52:02):
up and then competed inn C Double A Division three
gymnastics at m I T. I still mess around in
the gym sum and I am a huge follower of
n C Double A and elite gymnastics. As you mentioned,
Gabby Douglas and Simone Biles are amazing gymnasts. But I
also wanted you to show some love for Ali Raisman.
I think she's such a great ambassador for the sport.
(52:24):
She has spoken openly about learning to love her body
and her muscles. It's just such a positive message for girls.
You guys also mentioned some of the gendered commentary in gymnastics.
I never quite know how to feel when the commentators
discussed the women's leo's as in leotards. The men's leo's
are never discussed. Even in the beginning of the live
(52:45):
stream of the women's team finals for the Olympics, the
female commentator interrupted the male commentator's discussion of Team Usays
dominance to point out how she thought their leotards were
pretty ah. Focus on the awesomeness of the girl rolls,
not their leotard's. And one last fun fact, since you
have discovered the gymternet, there is an online fantasy gymnastics
(53:09):
league for n C double A Gymnastics. One of my
brilliant former teammates at m I T started the league
several years ago, and even the website design encoding herself. Allison,
I love that so much. I do not play fantasy football,
never will, but fantasy gymnastics I could get into that.
So now, listeners, we'd love to hear from you as well.
(53:30):
Mom stuff at how stuff works dot com is our
email address and for links to all of our social
media as well as all of our blogs, videos, and
podcasts with our sources so you can learn even more
about the science of staggy breasts. Head on over to
stuff mom Never Told You dot com for more on
(53:53):
this and thousands of other topics. Does it how stuff
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