April 12, 2025 • 40 mins
What are healthy boundaries and how do we set them? How does boundary-setting look for women and other marginalized communities? We dig into the research of boundaries in all aspects of our lives, why they can be hard to maintain, tips for setting them, and the importance of respecting them in this classic episode.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
H Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm all this stuff I Never told you prediction by
Heart You, and for today we are bringing back a
classic on boundaries. I think it continues to be a
(00:28):
relevant conversation, especially in our increasingly polarized world, but also
for me personally and by extension you personally. I have
a lot of very fanish things that are happening coming up,
and it can be difficult for me to be like
(00:52):
you know what, I can't have like everybody I know
in my.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Life coming to this event.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
So it's a time where I'm thinking about boundaries once
again and how best to pursue them. So we hope
you enjoy this classic episode.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
I'm welcome to Stefan Never told you the production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Okay, Annie, for today's episode, I have a pretty big
generic question, but you know, we'll see how well you do. So,
on average, how often do you think you've actually said
no or declined a request in your adult life? On average?
Speaker 1 (01:49):
On average?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
I think it's shifted recently because of the pandemic, but
before that often, yeah, I've been at all and even
now like during the pandemic. I'm still pretty bad, but
I have gotten better because I have a pretty good reason.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
Right.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
I had a friend, a good friend of ours, once
told me, like, you don't have to even respond because
a non response equals no, And I was like, but
that's so rude.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
So I can't even do that. I have to say
yes or no.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Oh, that's my go to is just to not respond.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Not now I know, like I'm not there.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
I'm like, I don't know, I don't know what's happening.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Oh no, And then.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Like the next day you're like, oh, I'm sorry, I'm
so sorry.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
I just kidding. If I if I know you well know,
and I can say no to you, like if you
can handle a note, then I say no. But if
you people, I've had people who like pressure me and
talk you into it and won't take that. So I
just don't respond sometimes.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Yeah, if I say no, and then you're you trying
to convince me. Now during the pandemic, I will say,
then I just won't respond anymore.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Right, But before then I.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Could be convinced. I could be pretty easily convinced.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Yeah, yeah, and you know what, You're not the only
one and we're going to talk a little bit about
all of that, including the fact that we do need
to perspect other people's knows which is sometimes hard for me.
I'm one of those people, like I really feel like
I can't read sometimes. Whether you're saying no just because
you feel like you can't do it versus you actually
(03:25):
don't want to do it like that, those are the
trade differences. But you know, with all the everyday stress,
there's been a lot thrown at us recently, and it
seems like so much, so much in the past few years,
and for some of us we have really grown into
setting some boundaries again, like I just may not respond
(03:46):
to you, and you have done really well because you've
decided that you actually like your alone time, maybe a
little too much sometimes, But for others it's actually gotten worse,
especially when it comes to people trying to change the
state of the world. There's been so much that's happening,
and there's been so much, honestly just scary moments where
we're like everything's about to be the worst. So to
(04:09):
that end, we feel like we have to do even
more and definitely can't slow down, but there's no denying
setting of boundaries is at an actual talent, and there's
some who are really good at it and then some
who are not, yeah, and who are still learning, right,
And of course we had to take a minute and
(04:31):
research if there was a difference based on gender. And again,
so just to note, a lot of the studies, though
some more recent, are typically done from a cis heteroperspective,
so it's not as intersectional when it comes to like
the queer community or any of that. So again, we
would like, we would like that to be not so
much the case, but unfortunately we can't always get that.
(04:54):
But again, this is information that is good to know
on a personal level, and we are going to hit
that intersectional we are going to talk about when it
comes to the bipop community as well. But just for
the perspective, this is on a very personal level, so
very individualistic, I guess.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Yeah, yeah, And I know we're going to discuss this later,
but I feel like this is one of those topics
that often gets wrapped up in sort of the like catchy,
very heteronormative magazine titles that are like here's how you
set boundaries with your men, Yes, And there's.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
So many of those, like we had to weed through
all of the Cosmo articles, which is there's nothing wrong
with that if they are evidence based, you do you,
but you know to the point that like this is
not what we're looking at necessarily to better set boundaries
to catch a man.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Right, right, Yeah, A lot to say about that, but
we better get into this verse, all right, and let's
get started with the definition. According to Miriam Webster, boundaries
are defined as something that indicates or fixes a limit
or extent. But a better definition of what we're talking
about is boundaries as quote an expression of inner authority.
(06:04):
And that's according to Bethanywebster dot com. And it continues
saying boundaries are a function of how much you are
in tune with yourself, how much you value yourself, and
where and with whom you choose to invest your energy.
Boundaries are often a battle people choose to not take
on easier to please people rather than dealing with the
conflict of saying no. Or it could be what author
(06:26):
doctor Kristen Lee of Psychology Today writes, quote, it signifies
a deeper value set. If you're the type that always
wants to be there for people you care about, it's
because you value relationships. If you're the one at work.
Who says yes to every project, it reflects how much
you value learning. But when we only say yes, we
might be missing chances to invest your time and energy
in ways that help us take our values and.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Goals to new levels.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
And it can affect women and those in marginalized communities differently.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Right, And we're going to talk a little bit about
that in a minute. But first, here's some reasons why
people may not say two boundaries. And it includes perfectionism
kind of what we're talking about, not wanting to let
anyone down, or wanting to be seen as the person
who can do everything in anything. And yes, I don't
want people to see me being weak. So therefore I'm like, yeah,
of course I know how to do that. What what
(07:16):
does that mean?
Speaker 2 (07:19):
You know?
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Just then there's fomo, or the fear of missing out.
Don't want to be left out or if you miss
something or you get excluded the next time around, which
was a big fear As an introvert. I'm like, oh, no,
I don't want to go out, but they're gonna not
invite me anymore. That's even worse. But on top of yes,
there I have friends who absolutely will not say no
(07:42):
because they're afraid they're gonna miss out on something significant,
and then they're gonna miss out on the conversations later
to come is that you do you do? You have fomo?
Speaker 2 (07:52):
I do have fomo. I think we've talked about this before.
I have both fomo. But also like I'm queen at
avoidance and going out or doing something is the best
way for me, not in a good way, not in
a healthy way, but the best way for me to
continue my unhealthy habit.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Of avoiding whatever it is.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Right, So they kind of both come together in a
real unnatural way.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
It's not good help.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Yes, I know a lot of people who do that
because being alone means you have to think about things. Yeah,
maybe it's based on your personality, you know what I'm
talking about. Are you an IFJ, well, maybe you have
a hard time in settling limits, or if you're an
I NFP, you are the example we need to look
(08:41):
toward as someone who does who is good at setting
boundaries and if they try to force you into something,
you're like, nah, I'm good, I'm good. So there's this
whole article if you want to go look at it.
It's at Personality growth dot Com titled how each personality
type handles boundaries, and yeah, if you want to know,
and if you know your Myers Brigs personality type, this
(09:02):
may tell you what kind of boundaries or lack of
boundaries you have, just so you know, or perhaps not
being able to differentiate between the emotion of saying no
because you feel like you're rejecting someone or turning someone
down or they're rejecting you, and the rationality of knowing
your limits. So aka, you're the people pleaser, the same
kind of perspective of being the perfectionist, but you are
(09:24):
scared to tell them no because that means they feel
rejected and you, of course have to spare their feelings
and you can't say no, and say no means it
hurts their feelings, which is not typically true, although sometimes
people do feel that way because I feel like that
a lot, because I have a fear of rejection. That's
a whole different conversation. Of course, there could be more
(09:47):
than just these reasons, and there are, but we just
wanted to give kind of a few examples of why
this could be a problem. But let's talk about the
deeper meanings.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yes, according to one SETI, when it comes to setting boundaries. Oftentimes,
those who are perceived as less powerful have a harder
time in setting them. In a twenty nineteen article in
The Swaddle titled how Society makes it difficult for women
at minorities to set emotional boundaries, Sadaf Venda talks about
the difficulties of women in marginalized communities saying no. They
(10:19):
write setting boundaries as to where the self ends and
where other people begin. Navigating relationships with this bounce in
mind and saying no when necessary is a difficult task,
especially for women and people from marginalized communities. They continue
on about the difference due to culture, gender, and societal
expectations and how these differences can lead to different levels
(10:39):
of philosophy when it comes to individualism and collectivism and
how that can impact a person's boundaries. For example, when
it comes to family, different cultures would dictate absolute loyalty
to the detriment of an individual and would have a
harder time in setting limits because of that.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Right and related to that is a concept known as
quote differentiation of self, which was originated by family therapist
Murray Bowen. It is described as a quote. A level
of the differentiation of self refers to the degree to
which a person can think and act for self while
in contact with emotionally charged issues. It also refers to
(11:15):
the degree which a person can discern between thoughts and feelings,
kind of like how we were talking about the people pleaser.
At higher levels of differentiation, people maintain separate solid cells
under considerable stress and anxiety, they manage their own reactivity
and choose thoughtful actions. At lower levels of differentiation, people
depend on others to function and they develop significant symptoms
(11:37):
under stress. They act often destructfully based on anxious reactions
to the environment. Their intellectual reasoning uses with emotionality. Even
highly intelligent people can be poorly differentiated. So what they
are talking about is this level of having the emotions
being disconnected to the reality. And we know that women
(11:59):
kind of have been targeted that way, being told you
are the nurture, the caregiver, so you should care and
you should feel these ways. And we also know that
men are told don't that is not mainly feeling feelings
is not good. So it kind of has this abuse
of power and this differentiation can really impact how you
set those boundaries. And for women, well, again it's complicated.
(12:21):
Doctor Tamika let explains in one article in the Zoe
Report dot com quote, in my opinion, when women say
quote I need help or I need a break, we
are viewed as a weak or not as competent as
our male counterparts, despite not taking care of ourselves, which
can result in mental health issues such as anxiety or depression.
Women are also seen as liabilities. And again we know
(12:43):
the implications of being seen as vulnerable. This is a
feminine quality, and this is kind of how it's attributed
to weaknesses, especially when it comes to positions of authority. Again,
this whole level of that nurture nature, the gendered ideas
of emotions, and why that is so harmful at youth. Again,
(13:03):
this impacts how we set boundaries and whether or not
we can set those boundaries.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
And I think the socialization aspect is very very important.
And I know for me, like because of some of
the trauma in my past, I don't even if I
want to say no, I don't say it at first,
right because it's the safety. It feels like, oh, my city,
he's going to get mad, especially as a man involved,
he's going to get to talk about Yeah, And so
(13:29):
for me like this kind of almost separation of emotions.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
It's like I feel the emotion and then.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
I shut it down and just say like O hey, yeah,
like bubbly, bubbly, yes.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Right, and then later I'm like, oh god no.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
And honestly, we're going to talk later on about how
to set boundaries. But so many of these articles that
are referring to women trying to set boundaries teach them
how to do it kindly because it is dangers. But
again we'll come back to that.
Speaker 4 (13:55):
Yeah, all right.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Therapist Emily Party weighs in on the same article, saying
boundary setting phrases like those mentioned above can also sometimes
be interpreted as anti feminist. In a society where women
have fought so hard to gain equality and opportunity, it
could be seen as a step in the wrong direction
when a woman acknowledges healthy boundaries and limitations. It's ironic, truly,
when the most feminist thing you can do is know
(14:31):
yourself well and stand up for your knees, which feels
like a damned if you do and damned if you
don't situation. And also, yeah, like we talked about in
Glennon Doyle's book, that whole idea that women have been
taught like selflessness is such a good thing, like that's
a value, right, Yeah, setting your boundaries feels like being selfish.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Right right, and being able to say no is such
a power trip. So therefore again not female enough, are
feminine enough, and so therefore all these things. But then
again you say that it can also look like it's
anti feminists not taking on everything to show that you
can take on everything, which is ironic in itself.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Yep. So now we're going to talk about masculinity and
boundaries because this whole thing could be translated as a
perception of power or supremacy and how it plays in
setting boundaries. And yes, boundaries are hard to just set
for those who are more likely to be oppressed and marginalized,
as Vidha says, And I apologize because I think I
added a superfluous in my pronunciation earlier, and I hope
(15:39):
I'm not butchering it in either case. Anyway, they say,
those who have more power in society, like men, build
a lot of unwritten rules around themselves, and their time
is often treated as a privilege. These powerful sections also
ensure that the time and effort of others is seen
as disposable, and thus this means these oppressed sections end
up doing more of the work, having hardly any emotional
(16:01):
and personal boundaries. And what happens when privilege is rejected
or limited They push back. As the Bethanywebster dot Com
article rites, male fragility has played a role and that
women quote have been conditioned to view our needs for
boundaries with distrust. Having boundaries, saying no and setting one's
own limits has long been associated with being difficult, uppity,
(16:25):
or a bit Women who set boundaries have been characterized
as being ugly. Femin Nazis are man hating and have
been threatened with violence and death.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
Right and of course there is an actual other side
to this. Before we move on, though, we do want
to talk about the fact that, yes, this becomes dangerous,
and we've talked about this so often that when we
put limits in saying no, I'm not interested and we
get pushed back on, there is a dangerous precedent. What
can we do to make sure that we don't get
(16:55):
to that place? And that is oftentimes make up an excuse,
try to be kind, all of those things, and try
to get out of the situation, because when we do
set up boundaries, especially like in the dating world, it
becomes a challenge. Yeah, And on the other side, we're
gonna talk about the nice guys as in fact, we
stumbled upon some articles about how nice guys are asking
(17:18):
how to set boundaries with quote flirty women. And when
I say flirty, this is in a negative connotation. And
y'all we watch these advice videos, so you didn't have
to and you shouldn't. And it includes teaching men to
put limits in boundaries with quote firmness and through grounding.
And according to one video, this is the idea of
(17:40):
taking from the bottom half of yourself. And I'm assuming
he's talking literally because he talks about don't take it
from the trust, pick from a bottom es like what,
maybe he's talking about his feet. I'm gonna go with
that and really being planted or fill yourself being planted
and not quote overreact because if a nice guy overreacts,
women will continue to quote poke Adam, which was the phrase.
(18:02):
I was really like, what to get a reaction and
continually test those boundaries. Now, it may sound like we're
being sarcastic. The language of this video and articles, especially
when it comes to the pickup artists, who use this
keith reinforcing the idea that women are mere property to conquer.
Some of the videos we see, I think we're on
(18:23):
religious based sites, so talking about being a man and
fearlessly conquering your fears, all of these things. It was interesting,
and they do talk about why they may be rejected
a little bit. And this article that popped up was
specifically to the idea of how to deal with women
who are degrading towards men or when flirting. I will
(18:44):
say again, this article did try to differentiate with the
person who was asking the question on whether he was
upset about being rejected or the woman was actually being degrading,
So at least he questions this. But let's be honest,
when it comes to these conversations continue to place a
woman at a level of being a prize instead of
(19:05):
being a human. So it doesn't really have the connotation
that this is a conversation with another person, but about
how to kind of control them in this narrative or
control the narrative in itself. But there is a whole
other point to these types of articles. Misogyny in itself
teaches men that setting boundaries, respecting boundaries are a part
(19:27):
of a power play. Respecting boundaries is not manly and
that women want manly men, of course, and that only
men can set these boundaries because once again it's based
on privilege and power. When we see it in this context,
we know not all men, Okay, we know, but the
fact teachings like this are still prevalent. We can't underestimate
(19:51):
the level of the need for perceived masculinity, and to
do so can be detrimental for all of the marginalized community.
And this is why continue to talk about it and
why we, yeah, are somewhat dismissive of the not all
men because it just takes one man. It just takes
that one time for us to underestimate what these conversations
(20:13):
can push to.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Yeah, yeah, and continuing the conversation of power and privilege
and boundaries, there are many examples of why women continue
to be unable to set limits and boundaries. One of
the biggest examples is the backlash of saying no. As
we talked about earlier, just by rejecting someone, a woman
maybe putting themselves in danger, and many have learned throughout
(20:35):
their lives our self worth is based on the way
we can sacrifice ourselves, meaning in order to show our value,
we have to give up ourselves our happiness for the
betterment of others. Another great quote. We learned to unconsciously
and automatically oppress ourselves and other women as a means
of survival. We had to self fragment, disabling our own
connection with ourselves to some degree and prioritizing external approval
(20:59):
in a world that favors rich white men over everybody else,
right and.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Daniel Litl Daeper. When it comes to the bipod community,
the dangers in past trauma is even greater. Black women
have been on the outskirts throughout the centuries when it
comes to having their boundaries respected, but have been the
ones to fight the hardest to establish it for the
sake of the entire community. When the term intersectionality was
coined by Kimberly Crenshaw, many pushed back because it meant
(21:25):
that those in the hierarchy aka white women, had to
admit that their cause was not about equality but more
about power for themselves. Not too long ago, black women
drew a line in the sand after being continually sidelined
or made the token by those who wanted to be
considered quote allies.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
In a twenty nineteen year article written in an injusticemac
dot org, one writer says, quote that overfamiliarity was acceptable
for white women to display toward black women, and we
were meant to simply accept the faux familial connection while
simultaneously remembering our place. And they continue in the article,
given the history we have slavery and white women's active,
(22:02):
yes active role in subjugating, abusing, and dehumanizing Black women
during that time, and after we do not feel comfortable,
and once we state we don't feel comfortable and they
proceed to make it about their emotional distress, it is
clear why we feel that way. Even friendships nourished over
years have boundaries. Adhering to boundaries shows value and respect
for the individual and the relationship. How are we united
(22:25):
when our attempts to establish boundaries are disregarded? How can
there be respect?
Speaker 3 (22:30):
Right? And I'm just going to put this out there, true,
allyship is not us non black and indigenous women and
non binary folks stating that we are allies as this
is not a title we can give ourselves. Just a
reminder just because you call yourself that does not mean
that that's what you are. I know you want to be,
(22:50):
but if you truly are an ally you wouldn't have
to say that for yourself. And honestly, that term has
begun to fade as many people cannot understand the true
respont responsibilities of allyship. But about all of this is
accepting the boundaries that have been set for us. So
when we talked about earlier, yes, we want to learn
(23:11):
how to set boundaries for ourselves. A part of this
learning is to respect boundaries as well. From that same article,
they say if they are fighting for women, that must
include all of us, which means combating all aspects of
marginalization that women outside of whiteness are subjected to. Because
just like your whiteness can often child you from the
(23:31):
aspects of sexism, a black woman, a black trans woman
will often see the worst because they like the protection
of whiteness and they have to contend with anti blackness,
misogyn noir and or transphobia. And to add our own
trauma to other trauma, proceeds to cross the boundary lines
as allies and honestly, as decent humans. This is something
(23:52):
that is important that we talk about, especially in a
time where everybody is trying to come together for a
greater purpose. But the fact of the matter is this
intersectional level. Until everyone has equality, then no one has it.
And the people who have been fighting the longest and
the hardest are the ones that we should be listening to,
and oftentimes are the ones that are ignored. And just
(24:12):
because we have good intentions, those good intentions are not
always good.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
And for the bipod community, it has only been more
clear in the last few years the importance in setting boundaries.
The pandemic and quarantine has made it clear that so
often boundaries are pushed past the limits to the detriment
of marginalized communities. According to another twenty twenty one article, Ethakahinde,
a licensed therapist, talks about the impact of working from
(24:42):
home during the pandemic. With many working from home over
the last year, it has become harder to escape toxic
workplace culture, which has been particularly hard on black women.
According to a twenty eighteen Women in the Workplace study,
forty percent of black women said they had their judgment
questioned in their area of expertise while earning all sixty
seven cents on the dollar compared to what men earned.
(25:03):
These factors. In other instances of workplace discrimination can cause
a major impact on mental health and create a demand
to separate work from other areas of one's life. Unfortunately,
quarantine made that much harder, and they continue writing. Coupled
with everything that's been going on and more awareness around
police brutality and racial and systemic injustice, I think it's
(25:26):
become really important for people to navigate what their limits
are and how they can help really maintain their identity
and engage the world around them.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
Right and another therapist, Rita Walker, was quoted in the
same article saying these communities disproportionately carry high levels of
burden with less access to education, housing, economic and political opportunities,
while shouldering more violence and disparities in health and well being.
These communities are resilient, but even resilience has its limits.
We often get overwhelmed before we know it. When that happens,
(25:56):
we feel as if we cannot take any more mentally,
because we need our minds to accomplish everything in life.
Is a good idea to protect them before feeling overwhelmed,
And even if we think we can handle anything, everyone
has a limit. Yeah, and there is a barrier when
it comes to Black and Indigenous women being able to
set boundaries, many are criticized for taking a break. A
(26:17):
couple of examples include Naomi Osaka and Simon Biles, who
are both criticized for stepping back due to their mental health.
Many accuse them of betraying their country for not willingly
sacrificing their own health for a metal, and many Black
women are characterized as being angry or too sensitive when
asking simple requests, like using belittling language or appropriating terms
(26:40):
like sis, which we're going to kind of talk about
in a minute. But doctor let from the Zoe Report
that we mentioned earlier, I actually talked of the very
situation concerning Oscca and Bials. She says they have both
put a spotlight on the idea that health is holistic
and includes mind, body, and spirit. They've also exposed that
black women have to work harder at demonstrating their worth
and abilities, which makes them more susceptible to mental health
(27:03):
concerns that are not often addressed due to stigmas surrounding
women and the black and brown communities. And yeah, I
think we need to kind of have that big conversation
about why we want to demonize someone for our self worth. Again,
that's the whole different thing. And as we were talking
about the term CIS last year, there was a black
(27:26):
TikTok creator who requested white women to not call her
CIS and she was met with a lot of angry
white women who immediately violated that request and went after
her for that small, simple request. And though we aren't
going to talk about the incident too deeply, it's interesting
to look at how quickly allies turned when told they
(27:48):
do not have the privilege of saying something. And again,
this has a lot to do with the African American
vernacular that we have talked about previously, that has been
addressed previously by other hosts, and why it's important that
we under stand appreciation versus appropriation. When we had a
book club with our guests talking about language and the
basis and the history of language and a lot of
(28:08):
it was stolen from black culture, which Black culture has
been villainized for and being told they're angry or inappropriate
or unprofessional. But yet we're taking their language. And this
is one of those moments like you have not earned
the right to call me sis and appropriately so, and
yet white women coming out of the woodward going. But
but but why can't.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
I M yeah, I mean I think that whole respecting
of boundaries, like if you want to set your own boundaries,
you mean to respect other people's boundaries right as well.
And I think that's so important to remember and even
see that with the pronouns and pronouns right now, and
(28:52):
it feels very It does feel like very weaponized and
privileged of like where you can't tell me no, do
you know.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Right, but like happiness, but you can't deny me of
mine of making you miserable, which yeah, and you know
this has kind of moved on that TikToker. I believe
she erased her content because she was getting so much
flack and even being told that she was too angry
it was so absurd.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
M m mm hmmm. But yes, as we have said before,
angers is not a bad thing, and therapists can hinde agrees.
They write, I think that when people experience a black
woman being angry, it is not random. Oftentimes anger is
a healthy response to someone violating your boundary or being dismissive,
because we're all entitled to be heard. And I do
(29:40):
think it really impacts black women and how they engage,
especially in work. I think in social environments where black
women and black female identifying individuals engage with others like them,
there's less of this fear of being angry because they're
being heard and understood, right.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
And Yeah, that's just such a big open conversation of
what we've been seeing recently of like, Okay, how do
we do better. Let's do better. That's I feel like
since Annie, you and I have come on to the show,
that's kind of been that perspective, like we want to
do better. Let us know when we're doing something that
is inappropriate and or going against our own mission. But
(30:17):
of course there comes the outrage because you are being
taken away from something, and these boundaries that we've had
to set for ourselves, even when it comes to the show,
like yes, if we've responded to you maybe because yeah,
thank you so much for clarifying and let it get
us know, versus you feeling offended because we're calling you in.
That's a whole different conversation and setting that boundary of
(30:38):
like we're not going to engage in toxicity for the
sake of your entertainment. And that's kind of where we
are seeing these the boundary is we all want our
boundaries to be met and or respected. That means we
also have to respect others, even if it makes you
uncomfortable or makes you feel like, oh, you did something wrong,
(30:58):
Because there are moments it is again a call in,
and you need to consider about why that feels like
a call in.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Mm hmm, yeah.
Speaker 5 (31:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
So we've gone through some of the reasons why boundaries
are important and how setting boundaries or respecting boundaries again
can be difficult. So let's talk about how to set boundaries.
And we're not going to go completely into it. We're
just going to give you a few things that we
have read from different articles and may be helpful.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
One big thing is figuring out what is important to you?
Is it something that is of value to you? And
just kind of I feel like I've talked a lot
about mindfulness since the pandemic, but it's kind of that
it's like sitting there and thinking, Okay, what, why am
I saying yes when maybe I didn't want to say yes?
Speaker 1 (31:58):
What is important?
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Where do I really want to lay down this boundary?
Speaker 1 (32:01):
And why is that?
Speaker 3 (32:03):
Yeah? Is it not a big deal? Okay? Cool? Is
it going to set a precedent. Okay. Also, you could
start learning some new phrases to say no or no
thing or maybe not today type of way, and here
are some examples from the Zoe Report and Psychology Today. Annie,
We're going to practice you ready, Okay, So I'm gonna
start so ready, I'm going to say it. I'll get
back to you.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
That won't work for me.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
I'm not going to take that on right now.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Thank you for asking.
Speaker 3 (32:30):
But no, well, I will need help with this.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
I need a break.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
Yeah, I've changed my mind.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
I'm not comfortable with that.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
That sounds like a great opportunity and I want to help,
but is it okay if I think about it for
a while.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
I'd love to, but I know I'm over committed and
won't be able to give this the time it deserves.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
So obviously we're very specific, but yeah, there are ways. Again,
this is kind of again that whole like being polite,
and there's nothing wrong with being polite, but again I
am interested to know who was being polite and who
was just being blunt.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Right, And I'm also curious.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
This is kind of reminding me of the conversation we
had around strategic incompetence when people are like not being
honest and genuine when they say things like this, or
because it kind of it's again that flip side the corn.
It's very complicated. But it's also like my mom. I
(33:28):
have talked about this before, but it's kind of interesting
because there are some things that because of when, when
and how she was raised, she's learning after me and
this is kind of one. And she struggles really hard
with saying no, and I learned from her, but I
think I've like kind of surpassed her. And I was
telling her sometimes if I know a conversation and I
(33:50):
it's going to involve that, and I'm worried that I'm
going to give in and I really don't want to,
I'll like write out a freakin script. I will write
something out. I will have bullet points on my hand
like it's kind of it sounds silly like reading these things,
it's like you can't just do that right.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Sometimes you need it right.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
I have definitely practiced beforehand of what more do you
say in the car as I'm driving having a full
long conversation with myself.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Oh meat, all right, So back to some other smother
tips that we found taking a look at the big picture.
Is it something you need to do right now? Can
you kind of push it down the line, deal with it?
Speaker 3 (34:34):
Does it help you, does it help anyone? Or is
it just something that people are using you for. Be honest,
let people know when you need a break, don't ignore
when you feel overwhelmed. And I think that's one of
the things is we're not honest when with ourselves when
we come to that breaking point until it's too late.
And again that's the same thing of being mindful. Just
really listen to that. Oh yeah, I'm hitting that wall.
(34:58):
I'm gonna need before I lose it, and friends, I'm
going to need to take a step back.
Speaker 5 (35:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
I mean that's a great way to look at it
is you don't want to have a meltdown and then
hurt somebody. And I think one of the things we
haven't really touched on in this episode but is sort
of on the outskirts. I think a lot of acid
to do with self esteem, at least when it comes
to women. So for me, I don't have the A
lot of times I don't have the self esteem.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
I'm not worth saying no.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
They want to do it, and they I want to
make them happy because they're better than me. So kind
of like telling yourself, now, if you want to stay
in read that fan fiction, then do it.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
Then do it. I say.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
Also find where you need to set boundaries. Is it
in your work life, your love life, Many aspects of
your life could.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
Be Yeah, and if you can get connected, whether it's
through therapy or a support group. And there's a lot
of bad friends out there, but there's a lot of
great friends out there too, and hopefully you are able
to connect with those people who will also tell you, hey,
you're you sure you want to do all these things.
It's just kind of running yourself tooth and you might
(36:07):
not want to do this. Those are the friends you need.
And sometimes it's nice to have someone as a sounding
board of like is this too much or is this
not enough? Type of conversation.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Yes, yes, And again remember we need to learn to
respect people's boundaries, listen when they are letting you in.
If you want to be an advocate, make sure you
are listening and not putting words into other people's mouths
and adding more work for others. Google is an amazing
tool for learning and there are so many great resources
out there for that. Sometimes it does feel really funny
(36:40):
again kind of looking up these sort of basic keep
and truths, but it makes sense, Like you know, people
are complicated.
Speaker 3 (36:47):
All right, And honestly, when it comes to when we
talk about social justice work and we were talking about
wanting to be good people and good advocates, there is
work out there. We have read several books and if
you want to go through our book club list, there
are amazing books out there, resources that already exist, yep,
where you don't have to tax other people to do
(37:09):
the same work when you can do it yourself.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Yeah, definitely, definitely, Yeah, all of this, all of this
can be healthy if you're doing it in a productive manner.
And by the way, there are toxic boundary settings that
happen as well. Again refer back to boundaries and bipoc
community and toxic masculinity and yes, strategic and competence. Perhaps yes,
(37:32):
and boundaries can help you avoid burnout and have a
better sense of identity and yeah, even build better self esteem.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
Right, and boundaries are different for different people. From Better
a Humans Dot pub article titled how to Set Healthy
Boundaries A Compassionate Guide for Women, writer Julia Horvath writes, quote,
boundaries exist on a skill for each person, and we
all have to find our own middle ground. And I
think that's a good conversation to have. Not everyone has
(38:04):
the same level or limits and it looks differently for them.
And continue to ask questions for yourself, learn about your
own limits and how to best set them, but also
understand that, yeah, community is a good thing. There is
a healthy boundary, there's a healthy middle ground that we
need to find when seeking help. Again, don't use your
(38:25):
friends necessarily to the point that you're pushing them away.
Speaker 5 (38:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:31):
You know, when I would mention that I was a
social worker, I got a lot of interesting reactions and
I would have to set boundaries to be like, maybe
you should talk to your therapists about that. And not
that I didn't have many friends who did that, but
I had strangers roommates that I wasn't closer that would
do things like does this sound normal? Does this sound like? Okay?
I don't get me wrong, I love analyzing, but being
(38:53):
constantly on just taxing and yeah, that's that same level
as understanding middle ground for yourself. I know, sometimes it's
really hard because you want to be a helpful person
and you feel like you owe that to someone, but
you know, yeah, there's a certain point that you need
to have a moment for yourself.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Yeah, this is, like many of our conversations, is very
nuanced because it's also like who are you actually trying
to help?
Speaker 3 (39:21):
Are you like me?
Speaker 2 (39:22):
Are you trying to avoid something and you're pouring that
into helping someone who doesn't want your help?
Speaker 1 (39:27):
You know, just good questions.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
Yes, And I know in a lot of past episodes
we didn't talk about it too much in this, but
a lot of you have written in about setting boundaries
with family, so I know that is a a big
piece of this too. And yeah, taking that time to
learn your boundaries and how to set them in a
healthy way is so important.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
And if you have any tips you'd like to share.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
Again, not everything works the same for everybody'd be different,
but if you have anything you'd like to share, any
resources you'd like to share, you know, we love the
You can email us at Stephanie and Momsteph at iHeartMedia
dot com. You can find us on Twitter at mom
Stuff Podcast or on Instagram at Stuff Whenever Told You.
Thanks as always to our super producer, Christina, Thank you,
and thanks to you for listening stefan Ertel's protection of iHeartRadio.
(40:13):
For more podcast on iHeartRadio, visit the iHeart Radio app,
Apple podcast or where you listen to your favorite shows,
H Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm all this stuff I Never told you prediction by
Heart You, and for today we are bringing back a
classic on boundaries. I think it continues to be a
(00:28):
relevant conversation, especially in our increasingly polarized world, but also
for me personally and by extension you personally. I have
a lot of very fanish things that are happening coming up,
and it can be difficult for me to be like
(00:52):
you know what, I can't have like everybody I know
in my.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Life coming to this event.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
So it's a time where I'm thinking about boundaries once
again and how best to pursue them. So we hope
you enjoy this classic episode.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
I'm welcome to Stefan Never told you the production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Okay, Annie, for today's episode, I have a pretty big
generic question, but you know, we'll see how well you do. So,
on average, how often do you think you've actually said
no or declined a request in your adult life? On average?
Speaker 1 (01:49):
On average?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
I think it's shifted recently because of the pandemic, but
before that often, yeah, I've been at all and even
now like during the pandemic. I'm still pretty bad, but
I have gotten better because I have a pretty good reason.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
Right.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
I had a friend, a good friend of ours, once
told me, like, you don't have to even respond because
a non response equals no, And I was like, but
that's so rude.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
So I can't even do that. I have to say
yes or no.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Oh, that's my go to is just to not respond.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Not now I know, like I'm not there.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
I'm like, I don't know, I don't know what's happening.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Oh no, And then.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Like the next day you're like, oh, I'm sorry, I'm
so sorry.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
I just kidding. If I if I know you well know,
and I can say no to you, like if you
can handle a note, then I say no. But if
you people, I've had people who like pressure me and
talk you into it and won't take that. So I
just don't respond sometimes.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Yeah, if I say no, and then you're you trying
to convince me. Now during the pandemic, I will say,
then I just won't respond anymore.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Right, But before then I.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Could be convinced. I could be pretty easily convinced.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Yeah, yeah, and you know what, You're not the only
one and we're going to talk a little bit about
all of that, including the fact that we do need
to perspect other people's knows which is sometimes hard for me.
I'm one of those people, like I really feel like
I can't read sometimes. Whether you're saying no just because
you feel like you can't do it versus you actually
(03:25):
don't want to do it like that, those are the
trade differences. But you know, with all the everyday stress,
there's been a lot thrown at us recently, and it
seems like so much, so much in the past few years,
and for some of us we have really grown into
setting some boundaries again, like I just may not respond
(03:46):
to you, and you have done really well because you've
decided that you actually like your alone time, maybe a
little too much sometimes, But for others it's actually gotten worse,
especially when it comes to people trying to change the
state of the world. There's been so much that's happening,
and there's been so much, honestly just scary moments where
we're like everything's about to be the worst. So to
(04:09):
that end, we feel like we have to do even
more and definitely can't slow down, but there's no denying
setting of boundaries is at an actual talent, and there's
some who are really good at it and then some
who are not, yeah, and who are still learning, right,
And of course we had to take a minute and
(04:31):
research if there was a difference based on gender. And again,
so just to note, a lot of the studies, though
some more recent, are typically done from a cis heteroperspective,
so it's not as intersectional when it comes to like
the queer community or any of that. So again, we
would like, we would like that to be not so
much the case, but unfortunately we can't always get that.
(04:54):
But again, this is information that is good to know
on a personal level, and we are going to hit
that intersectional we are going to talk about when it
comes to the bipop community as well. But just for
the perspective, this is on a very personal level, so
very individualistic, I guess.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Yeah, yeah, And I know we're going to discuss this later,
but I feel like this is one of those topics
that often gets wrapped up in sort of the like catchy,
very heteronormative magazine titles that are like here's how you
set boundaries with your men, Yes, And there's.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
So many of those, like we had to weed through
all of the Cosmo articles, which is there's nothing wrong
with that if they are evidence based, you do you,
but you know to the point that like this is
not what we're looking at necessarily to better set boundaries
to catch a man.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Right, right, Yeah, A lot to say about that, but
we better get into this verse, all right, and let's
get started with the definition. According to Miriam Webster, boundaries
are defined as something that indicates or fixes a limit
or extent. But a better definition of what we're talking
about is boundaries as quote an expression of inner authority.
(06:04):
And that's according to Bethanywebster dot com. And it continues
saying boundaries are a function of how much you are
in tune with yourself, how much you value yourself, and
where and with whom you choose to invest your energy.
Boundaries are often a battle people choose to not take
on easier to please people rather than dealing with the
conflict of saying no. Or it could be what author
(06:26):
doctor Kristen Lee of Psychology Today writes, quote, it signifies
a deeper value set. If you're the type that always
wants to be there for people you care about, it's
because you value relationships. If you're the one at work.
Who says yes to every project, it reflects how much
you value learning. But when we only say yes, we
might be missing chances to invest your time and energy
in ways that help us take our values and.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Goals to new levels.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
And it can affect women and those in marginalized communities differently.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Right, And we're going to talk a little bit about
that in a minute. But first, here's some reasons why
people may not say two boundaries. And it includes perfectionism
kind of what we're talking about, not wanting to let
anyone down, or wanting to be seen as the person
who can do everything in anything. And yes, I don't
want people to see me being weak. So therefore I'm like, yeah,
of course I know how to do that. What what
(07:16):
does that mean?
Speaker 2 (07:19):
You know?
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Just then there's fomo, or the fear of missing out.
Don't want to be left out or if you miss
something or you get excluded the next time around, which
was a big fear As an introvert. I'm like, oh, no,
I don't want to go out, but they're gonna not
invite me anymore. That's even worse. But on top of yes,
there I have friends who absolutely will not say no
(07:42):
because they're afraid they're gonna miss out on something significant,
and then they're gonna miss out on the conversations later
to come is that you do you do? You have fomo?
Speaker 2 (07:52):
I do have fomo. I think we've talked about this before.
I have both fomo. But also like I'm queen at
avoidance and going out or doing something is the best
way for me, not in a good way, not in
a healthy way, but the best way for me to
continue my unhealthy habit.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Of avoiding whatever it is.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Right, So they kind of both come together in a
real unnatural way.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
It's not good help.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Yes, I know a lot of people who do that
because being alone means you have to think about things. Yeah,
maybe it's based on your personality, you know what I'm
talking about. Are you an IFJ, well, maybe you have
a hard time in settling limits, or if you're an
I NFP, you are the example we need to look
(08:41):
toward as someone who does who is good at setting
boundaries and if they try to force you into something,
you're like, nah, I'm good, I'm good. So there's this
whole article if you want to go look at it.
It's at Personality growth dot Com titled how each personality
type handles boundaries, and yeah, if you want to know,
and if you know your Myers Brigs personality type, this
(09:02):
may tell you what kind of boundaries or lack of
boundaries you have, just so you know, or perhaps not
being able to differentiate between the emotion of saying no
because you feel like you're rejecting someone or turning someone
down or they're rejecting you, and the rationality of knowing
your limits. So aka, you're the people pleaser, the same
kind of perspective of being the perfectionist, but you are
(09:24):
scared to tell them no because that means they feel
rejected and you, of course have to spare their feelings
and you can't say no, and say no means it
hurts their feelings, which is not typically true, although sometimes
people do feel that way because I feel like that
a lot, because I have a fear of rejection. That's
a whole different conversation. Of course, there could be more
(09:47):
than just these reasons, and there are, but we just
wanted to give kind of a few examples of why
this could be a problem. But let's talk about the
deeper meanings.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yes, according to one SETI, when it comes to setting boundaries. Oftentimes,
those who are perceived as less powerful have a harder
time in setting them. In a twenty nineteen article in
The Swaddle titled how Society makes it difficult for women
at minorities to set emotional boundaries, Sadaf Venda talks about
the difficulties of women in marginalized communities saying no. They
(10:19):
write setting boundaries as to where the self ends and
where other people begin. Navigating relationships with this bounce in
mind and saying no when necessary is a difficult task,
especially for women and people from marginalized communities. They continue
on about the difference due to culture, gender, and societal
expectations and how these differences can lead to different levels
(10:39):
of philosophy when it comes to individualism and collectivism and
how that can impact a person's boundaries. For example, when
it comes to family, different cultures would dictate absolute loyalty
to the detriment of an individual and would have a
harder time in setting limits because of that.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Right and related to that is a concept known as
quote differentiation of self, which was originated by family therapist
Murray Bowen. It is described as a quote. A level
of the differentiation of self refers to the degree to
which a person can think and act for self while
in contact with emotionally charged issues. It also refers to
(11:15):
the degree which a person can discern between thoughts and feelings,
kind of like how we were talking about the people pleaser.
At higher levels of differentiation, people maintain separate solid cells
under considerable stress and anxiety, they manage their own reactivity
and choose thoughtful actions. At lower levels of differentiation, people
depend on others to function and they develop significant symptoms
(11:37):
under stress. They act often destructfully based on anxious reactions
to the environment. Their intellectual reasoning uses with emotionality. Even
highly intelligent people can be poorly differentiated. So what they
are talking about is this level of having the emotions
being disconnected to the reality. And we know that women
(11:59):
kind of have been targeted that way, being told you
are the nurture, the caregiver, so you should care and
you should feel these ways. And we also know that
men are told don't that is not mainly feeling feelings
is not good. So it kind of has this abuse
of power and this differentiation can really impact how you
set those boundaries. And for women, well, again it's complicated.
(12:21):
Doctor Tamika let explains in one article in the Zoe
Report dot com quote, in my opinion, when women say
quote I need help or I need a break, we
are viewed as a weak or not as competent as
our male counterparts, despite not taking care of ourselves, which
can result in mental health issues such as anxiety or depression.
Women are also seen as liabilities. And again we know
(12:43):
the implications of being seen as vulnerable. This is a
feminine quality, and this is kind of how it's attributed
to weaknesses, especially when it comes to positions of authority. Again,
this whole level of that nurture nature, the gendered ideas
of emotions, and why that is so harmful at youth. Again,
(13:03):
this impacts how we set boundaries and whether or not
we can set those boundaries.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
And I think the socialization aspect is very very important.
And I know for me, like because of some of
the trauma in my past, I don't even if I
want to say no, I don't say it at first,
right because it's the safety. It feels like, oh, my city,
he's going to get mad, especially as a man involved,
he's going to get to talk about Yeah, And so
(13:29):
for me like this kind of almost separation of emotions.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
It's like I feel the emotion and then.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
I shut it down and just say like O hey, yeah,
like bubbly, bubbly, yes.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Right, and then later I'm like, oh god no.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
And honestly, we're going to talk later on about how
to set boundaries. But so many of these articles that
are referring to women trying to set boundaries teach them
how to do it kindly because it is dangers. But
again we'll come back to that.
Speaker 4 (13:55):
Yeah, all right.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Therapist Emily Party weighs in on the same article, saying
boundary setting phrases like those mentioned above can also sometimes
be interpreted as anti feminist. In a society where women
have fought so hard to gain equality and opportunity, it
could be seen as a step in the wrong direction
when a woman acknowledges healthy boundaries and limitations. It's ironic, truly,
when the most feminist thing you can do is know
(14:31):
yourself well and stand up for your knees, which feels
like a damned if you do and damned if you
don't situation. And also, yeah, like we talked about in
Glennon Doyle's book, that whole idea that women have been
taught like selflessness is such a good thing, like that's
a value, right, Yeah, setting your boundaries feels like being selfish.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Right right, and being able to say no is such
a power trip. So therefore again not female enough, are
feminine enough, and so therefore all these things. But then
again you say that it can also look like it's
anti feminists not taking on everything to show that you
can take on everything, which is ironic in itself.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Yep. So now we're going to talk about masculinity and
boundaries because this whole thing could be translated as a
perception of power or supremacy and how it plays in
setting boundaries. And yes, boundaries are hard to just set
for those who are more likely to be oppressed and marginalized,
as Vidha says, And I apologize because I think I
added a superfluous in my pronunciation earlier, and I hope
(15:39):
I'm not butchering it in either case. Anyway, they say,
those who have more power in society, like men, build
a lot of unwritten rules around themselves, and their time
is often treated as a privilege. These powerful sections also
ensure that the time and effort of others is seen
as disposable, and thus this means these oppressed sections end
up doing more of the work, having hardly any emotional
(16:01):
and personal boundaries. And what happens when privilege is rejected
or limited They push back. As the Bethanywebster dot Com
article rites, male fragility has played a role and that
women quote have been conditioned to view our needs for
boundaries with distrust. Having boundaries, saying no and setting one's
own limits has long been associated with being difficult, uppity,
(16:25):
or a bit Women who set boundaries have been characterized
as being ugly. Femin Nazis are man hating and have
been threatened with violence and death.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
Right and of course there is an actual other side
to this. Before we move on, though, we do want
to talk about the fact that, yes, this becomes dangerous,
and we've talked about this so often that when we
put limits in saying no, I'm not interested and we
get pushed back on, there is a dangerous precedent. What
can we do to make sure that we don't get
(16:55):
to that place? And that is oftentimes make up an excuse,
try to be kind, all of those things, and try
to get out of the situation, because when we do
set up boundaries, especially like in the dating world, it
becomes a challenge. Yeah, And on the other side, we're
gonna talk about the nice guys as in fact, we
stumbled upon some articles about how nice guys are asking
(17:18):
how to set boundaries with quote flirty women. And when
I say flirty, this is in a negative connotation. And
y'all we watch these advice videos, so you didn't have
to and you shouldn't. And it includes teaching men to
put limits in boundaries with quote firmness and through grounding.
And according to one video, this is the idea of
(17:40):
taking from the bottom half of yourself. And I'm assuming
he's talking literally because he talks about don't take it
from the trust, pick from a bottom es like what,
maybe he's talking about his feet. I'm gonna go with
that and really being planted or fill yourself being planted
and not quote overreact because if a nice guy overreacts,
women will continue to quote poke Adam, which was the phrase.
(18:02):
I was really like, what to get a reaction and
continually test those boundaries. Now, it may sound like we're
being sarcastic. The language of this video and articles, especially
when it comes to the pickup artists, who use this
keith reinforcing the idea that women are mere property to conquer.
Some of the videos we see, I think we're on
(18:23):
religious based sites, so talking about being a man and
fearlessly conquering your fears, all of these things. It was interesting,
and they do talk about why they may be rejected
a little bit. And this article that popped up was
specifically to the idea of how to deal with women
who are degrading towards men or when flirting. I will
(18:44):
say again, this article did try to differentiate with the
person who was asking the question on whether he was
upset about being rejected or the woman was actually being degrading,
So at least he questions this. But let's be honest,
when it comes to these conversations continue to place a
woman at a level of being a prize instead of
(19:05):
being a human. So it doesn't really have the connotation
that this is a conversation with another person, but about
how to kind of control them in this narrative or
control the narrative in itself. But there is a whole
other point to these types of articles. Misogyny in itself
teaches men that setting boundaries, respecting boundaries are a part
(19:27):
of a power play. Respecting boundaries is not manly and
that women want manly men, of course, and that only
men can set these boundaries because once again it's based
on privilege and power. When we see it in this context,
we know not all men, Okay, we know, but the
fact teachings like this are still prevalent. We can't underestimate
(19:51):
the level of the need for perceived masculinity, and to
do so can be detrimental for all of the marginalized community.
And this is why continue to talk about it and
why we, yeah, are somewhat dismissive of the not all
men because it just takes one man. It just takes
that one time for us to underestimate what these conversations
(20:13):
can push to.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Yeah, yeah, and continuing the conversation of power and privilege
and boundaries, there are many examples of why women continue
to be unable to set limits and boundaries. One of
the biggest examples is the backlash of saying no. As
we talked about earlier, just by rejecting someone, a woman
maybe putting themselves in danger, and many have learned throughout
(20:35):
their lives our self worth is based on the way
we can sacrifice ourselves, meaning in order to show our value,
we have to give up ourselves our happiness for the
betterment of others. Another great quote. We learned to unconsciously
and automatically oppress ourselves and other women as a means
of survival. We had to self fragment, disabling our own
connection with ourselves to some degree and prioritizing external approval
(20:59):
in a world that favors rich white men over everybody else,
right and.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Daniel Litl Daeper. When it comes to the bipod community,
the dangers in past trauma is even greater. Black women
have been on the outskirts throughout the centuries when it
comes to having their boundaries respected, but have been the
ones to fight the hardest to establish it for the
sake of the entire community. When the term intersectionality was
coined by Kimberly Crenshaw, many pushed back because it meant
(21:25):
that those in the hierarchy aka white women, had to
admit that their cause was not about equality but more
about power for themselves. Not too long ago, black women
drew a line in the sand after being continually sidelined
or made the token by those who wanted to be
considered quote allies.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
In a twenty nineteen year article written in an injusticemac
dot org, one writer says, quote that overfamiliarity was acceptable
for white women to display toward black women, and we
were meant to simply accept the faux familial connection while
simultaneously remembering our place. And they continue in the article,
given the history we have slavery and white women's active,
(22:02):
yes active role in subjugating, abusing, and dehumanizing Black women
during that time, and after we do not feel comfortable,
and once we state we don't feel comfortable and they
proceed to make it about their emotional distress, it is
clear why we feel that way. Even friendships nourished over
years have boundaries. Adhering to boundaries shows value and respect
for the individual and the relationship. How are we united
(22:25):
when our attempts to establish boundaries are disregarded? How can
there be respect?
Speaker 3 (22:30):
Right? And I'm just going to put this out there, true,
allyship is not us non black and indigenous women and
non binary folks stating that we are allies as this
is not a title we can give ourselves. Just a
reminder just because you call yourself that does not mean
that that's what you are. I know you want to be,
(22:50):
but if you truly are an ally you wouldn't have
to say that for yourself. And honestly, that term has
begun to fade as many people cannot understand the true
respont responsibilities of allyship. But about all of this is
accepting the boundaries that have been set for us. So
when we talked about earlier, yes, we want to learn
(23:11):
how to set boundaries for ourselves. A part of this
learning is to respect boundaries as well. From that same article,
they say if they are fighting for women, that must
include all of us, which means combating all aspects of
marginalization that women outside of whiteness are subjected to. Because
just like your whiteness can often child you from the
(23:31):
aspects of sexism, a black woman, a black trans woman
will often see the worst because they like the protection
of whiteness and they have to contend with anti blackness,
misogyn noir and or transphobia. And to add our own
trauma to other trauma, proceeds to cross the boundary lines
as allies and honestly, as decent humans. This is something
(23:52):
that is important that we talk about, especially in a
time where everybody is trying to come together for a
greater purpose. But the fact of the matter is this
intersectional level. Until everyone has equality, then no one has it.
And the people who have been fighting the longest and
the hardest are the ones that we should be listening to,
and oftentimes are the ones that are ignored. And just
(24:12):
because we have good intentions, those good intentions are not
always good.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
And for the bipod community, it has only been more
clear in the last few years the importance in setting boundaries.
The pandemic and quarantine has made it clear that so
often boundaries are pushed past the limits to the detriment
of marginalized communities. According to another twenty twenty one article, Ethakahinde,
a licensed therapist, talks about the impact of working from
(24:42):
home during the pandemic. With many working from home over
the last year, it has become harder to escape toxic
workplace culture, which has been particularly hard on black women.
According to a twenty eighteen Women in the Workplace study,
forty percent of black women said they had their judgment
questioned in their area of expertise while earning all sixty
seven cents on the dollar compared to what men earned.
(25:03):
These factors. In other instances of workplace discrimination can cause
a major impact on mental health and create a demand
to separate work from other areas of one's life. Unfortunately,
quarantine made that much harder, and they continue writing. Coupled
with everything that's been going on and more awareness around
police brutality and racial and systemic injustice, I think it's
(25:26):
become really important for people to navigate what their limits
are and how they can help really maintain their identity
and engage the world around them.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
Right and another therapist, Rita Walker, was quoted in the
same article saying these communities disproportionately carry high levels of
burden with less access to education, housing, economic and political opportunities,
while shouldering more violence and disparities in health and well being.
These communities are resilient, but even resilience has its limits.
We often get overwhelmed before we know it. When that happens,
(25:56):
we feel as if we cannot take any more mentally,
because we need our minds to accomplish everything in life.
Is a good idea to protect them before feeling overwhelmed,
And even if we think we can handle anything, everyone
has a limit. Yeah, and there is a barrier when
it comes to Black and Indigenous women being able to
set boundaries, many are criticized for taking a break. A
(26:17):
couple of examples include Naomi Osaka and Simon Biles, who
are both criticized for stepping back due to their mental health.
Many accuse them of betraying their country for not willingly
sacrificing their own health for a metal, and many Black
women are characterized as being angry or too sensitive when
asking simple requests, like using belittling language or appropriating terms
(26:40):
like sis, which we're going to kind of talk about
in a minute. But doctor let from the Zoe Report
that we mentioned earlier, I actually talked of the very
situation concerning Oscca and Bials. She says they have both
put a spotlight on the idea that health is holistic
and includes mind, body, and spirit. They've also exposed that
black women have to work harder at demonstrating their worth
and abilities, which makes them more susceptible to mental health
(27:03):
concerns that are not often addressed due to stigmas surrounding
women and the black and brown communities. And yeah, I
think we need to kind of have that big conversation
about why we want to demonize someone for our self worth. Again,
that's the whole different thing. And as we were talking
about the term CIS last year, there was a black
(27:26):
TikTok creator who requested white women to not call her
CIS and she was met with a lot of angry
white women who immediately violated that request and went after
her for that small, simple request. And though we aren't
going to talk about the incident too deeply, it's interesting
to look at how quickly allies turned when told they
(27:48):
do not have the privilege of saying something. And again,
this has a lot to do with the African American
vernacular that we have talked about previously, that has been
addressed previously by other hosts, and why it's important that
we under stand appreciation versus appropriation. When we had a
book club with our guests talking about language and the
basis and the history of language and a lot of
(28:08):
it was stolen from black culture, which Black culture has
been villainized for and being told they're angry or inappropriate
or unprofessional. But yet we're taking their language. And this
is one of those moments like you have not earned
the right to call me sis and appropriately so, and
yet white women coming out of the woodward going. But
but but why can't.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
I M yeah, I mean I think that whole respecting
of boundaries, like if you want to set your own boundaries,
you mean to respect other people's boundaries right as well.
And I think that's so important to remember and even
see that with the pronouns and pronouns right now, and
(28:52):
it feels very It does feel like very weaponized and
privileged of like where you can't tell me no, do
you know.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Right, but like happiness, but you can't deny me of
mine of making you miserable, which yeah, and you know
this has kind of moved on that TikToker. I believe
she erased her content because she was getting so much
flack and even being told that she was too angry
it was so absurd.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
M m mm hmmm. But yes, as we have said before,
angers is not a bad thing, and therapists can hinde agrees.
They write, I think that when people experience a black
woman being angry, it is not random. Oftentimes anger is
a healthy response to someone violating your boundary or being dismissive,
because we're all entitled to be heard. And I do
(29:40):
think it really impacts black women and how they engage,
especially in work. I think in social environments where black
women and black female identifying individuals engage with others like them,
there's less of this fear of being angry because they're
being heard and understood, right.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
And Yeah, that's just such a big open conversation of
what we've been seeing recently of like, Okay, how do
we do better. Let's do better. That's I feel like
since Annie, you and I have come on to the show,
that's kind of been that perspective, like we want to
do better. Let us know when we're doing something that
is inappropriate and or going against our own mission. But
(30:17):
of course there comes the outrage because you are being
taken away from something, and these boundaries that we've had
to set for ourselves, even when it comes to the show,
like yes, if we've responded to you maybe because yeah,
thank you so much for clarifying and let it get
us know, versus you feeling offended because we're calling you in.
That's a whole different conversation and setting that boundary of
(30:38):
like we're not going to engage in toxicity for the
sake of your entertainment. And that's kind of where we
are seeing these the boundary is we all want our
boundaries to be met and or respected. That means we
also have to respect others, even if it makes you
uncomfortable or makes you feel like, oh, you did something wrong,
(30:58):
Because there are moments it is again a call in,
and you need to consider about why that feels like
a call in.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Mm hmm, yeah.
Speaker 5 (31:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
So we've gone through some of the reasons why boundaries
are important and how setting boundaries or respecting boundaries again
can be difficult. So let's talk about how to set boundaries.
And we're not going to go completely into it. We're
just going to give you a few things that we
have read from different articles and may be helpful.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
One big thing is figuring out what is important to you?
Is it something that is of value to you? And
just kind of I feel like I've talked a lot
about mindfulness since the pandemic, but it's kind of that
it's like sitting there and thinking, Okay, what, why am
I saying yes when maybe I didn't want to say yes?
Speaker 1 (31:58):
What is important?
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Where do I really want to lay down this boundary?
Speaker 1 (32:01):
And why is that?
Speaker 3 (32:03):
Yeah? Is it not a big deal? Okay? Cool? Is
it going to set a precedent. Okay. Also, you could
start learning some new phrases to say no or no
thing or maybe not today type of way, and here
are some examples from the Zoe Report and Psychology Today. Annie,
We're going to practice you ready, Okay, So I'm gonna
start so ready, I'm going to say it. I'll get
back to you.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
That won't work for me.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
I'm not going to take that on right now.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Thank you for asking.
Speaker 3 (32:30):
But no, well, I will need help with this.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
I need a break.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
Yeah, I've changed my mind.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
I'm not comfortable with that.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
That sounds like a great opportunity and I want to help,
but is it okay if I think about it for
a while.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
I'd love to, but I know I'm over committed and
won't be able to give this the time it deserves.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
So obviously we're very specific, but yeah, there are ways. Again,
this is kind of again that whole like being polite,
and there's nothing wrong with being polite, but again I
am interested to know who was being polite and who
was just being blunt.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Right, And I'm also curious.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
This is kind of reminding me of the conversation we
had around strategic incompetence when people are like not being
honest and genuine when they say things like this, or
because it kind of it's again that flip side the corn.
It's very complicated. But it's also like my mom. I
(33:28):
have talked about this before, but it's kind of interesting
because there are some things that because of when, when
and how she was raised, she's learning after me and
this is kind of one. And she struggles really hard
with saying no, and I learned from her, but I
think I've like kind of surpassed her. And I was
telling her sometimes if I know a conversation and I
(33:50):
it's going to involve that, and I'm worried that I'm
going to give in and I really don't want to,
I'll like write out a freakin script. I will write
something out. I will have bullet points on my hand
like it's kind of it sounds silly like reading these things,
it's like you can't just do that right.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Sometimes you need it right.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
I have definitely practiced beforehand of what more do you
say in the car as I'm driving having a full
long conversation with myself.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Oh meat, all right, So back to some other smother
tips that we found taking a look at the big picture.
Is it something you need to do right now? Can
you kind of push it down the line, deal with it?
Speaker 3 (34:34):
Does it help you, does it help anyone? Or is
it just something that people are using you for. Be honest,
let people know when you need a break, don't ignore
when you feel overwhelmed. And I think that's one of
the things is we're not honest when with ourselves when
we come to that breaking point until it's too late.
And again that's the same thing of being mindful. Just
really listen to that. Oh yeah, I'm hitting that wall.
(34:58):
I'm gonna need before I lose it, and friends, I'm
going to need to take a step back.
Speaker 5 (35:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
I mean that's a great way to look at it
is you don't want to have a meltdown and then
hurt somebody. And I think one of the things we
haven't really touched on in this episode but is sort
of on the outskirts. I think a lot of acid
to do with self esteem, at least when it comes
to women. So for me, I don't have the A
lot of times I don't have the self esteem.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
I'm not worth saying no.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
They want to do it, and they I want to
make them happy because they're better than me. So kind
of like telling yourself, now, if you want to stay
in read that fan fiction, then do it.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
Then do it. I say.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
Also find where you need to set boundaries. Is it
in your work life, your love life, Many aspects of
your life could.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
Be Yeah, and if you can get connected, whether it's
through therapy or a support group. And there's a lot
of bad friends out there, but there's a lot of
great friends out there too, and hopefully you are able
to connect with those people who will also tell you, hey,
you're you sure you want to do all these things.
It's just kind of running yourself tooth and you might
(36:07):
not want to do this. Those are the friends you need.
And sometimes it's nice to have someone as a sounding
board of like is this too much or is this
not enough? Type of conversation.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Yes, yes, And again remember we need to learn to
respect people's boundaries, listen when they are letting you in.
If you want to be an advocate, make sure you
are listening and not putting words into other people's mouths
and adding more work for others. Google is an amazing
tool for learning and there are so many great resources
out there for that. Sometimes it does feel really funny
(36:40):
again kind of looking up these sort of basic keep
and truths, but it makes sense, Like you know, people
are complicated.
Speaker 3 (36:47):
All right, And honestly, when it comes to when we
talk about social justice work and we were talking about
wanting to be good people and good advocates, there is
work out there. We have read several books and if
you want to go through our book club list, there
are amazing books out there, resources that already exist, yep,
where you don't have to tax other people to do
(37:09):
the same work when you can do it yourself.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Yeah, definitely, definitely, Yeah, all of this, all of this
can be healthy if you're doing it in a productive manner.
And by the way, there are toxic boundary settings that
happen as well. Again refer back to boundaries and bipoc
community and toxic masculinity and yes, strategic and competence. Perhaps yes,
(37:32):
and boundaries can help you avoid burnout and have a
better sense of identity and yeah, even build better self esteem.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
Right, and boundaries are different for different people. From Better
a Humans Dot pub article titled how to Set Healthy
Boundaries A Compassionate Guide for Women, writer Julia Horvath writes, quote,
boundaries exist on a skill for each person, and we
all have to find our own middle ground. And I
think that's a good conversation to have. Not everyone has
(38:04):
the same level or limits and it looks differently for them.
And continue to ask questions for yourself, learn about your
own limits and how to best set them, but also
understand that, yeah, community is a good thing. There is
a healthy boundary, there's a healthy middle ground that we
need to find when seeking help. Again, don't use your
(38:25):
friends necessarily to the point that you're pushing them away.
Speaker 5 (38:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:31):
You know, when I would mention that I was a
social worker, I got a lot of interesting reactions and
I would have to set boundaries to be like, maybe
you should talk to your therapists about that. And not
that I didn't have many friends who did that, but
I had strangers roommates that I wasn't closer that would
do things like does this sound normal? Does this sound like? Okay?
I don't get me wrong, I love analyzing, but being
(38:53):
constantly on just taxing and yeah, that's that same level
as understanding middle ground for yourself. I know, sometimes it's
really hard because you want to be a helpful person
and you feel like you owe that to someone, but
you know, yeah, there's a certain point that you need
to have a moment for yourself.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Yeah, this is, like many of our conversations, is very
nuanced because it's also like who are you actually trying
to help?
Speaker 3 (39:21):
Are you like me?
Speaker 2 (39:22):
Are you trying to avoid something and you're pouring that
into helping someone who doesn't want your help?
Speaker 1 (39:27):
You know, just good questions.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
Yes, And I know in a lot of past episodes
we didn't talk about it too much in this, but
a lot of you have written in about setting boundaries
with family, so I know that is a a big
piece of this too. And yeah, taking that time to
learn your boundaries and how to set them in a
healthy way is so important.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
And if you have any tips you'd like to share.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
Again, not everything works the same for everybody'd be different,
but if you have anything you'd like to share, any
resources you'd like to share, you know, we love the
You can email us at Stephanie and Momsteph at iHeartMedia
dot com. You can find us on Twitter at mom
Stuff Podcast or on Instagram at Stuff Whenever Told You.
Thanks as always to our super producer, Christina, Thank you,
and thanks to you for listening stefan Ertel's protection of iHeartRadio.
(40:13):
For more podcast on iHeartRadio, visit the iHeart Radio app,
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