November 13, 2024 • 49 mins
The manosphere blames women and feminism for pretty much everything. We break down what it is, how it grew in a backlash to #MeToo, and how it leads to violence and played a role in the election.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to staff.
One Never Told You production of iHeartRadio, and today, as
we're recording this, it is November twelfth, twenty twenty four.
This is one of those things where I've been meaning
(00:28):
to talk about for a while because I've seen a
lot of articles written about it recently. But when I
looked at our very convoluted RSS page, I was surprised
no one's ever talked about it before. So this is new.
We've talked a lot about things surrounding it, but we
have never done an episode on the Manisphere, which is
(00:49):
what we're talking about today. That being said, probably no
surprise to people who are familiar. Content warning for non
explicit discussions of rape, sexual assault, violin against women, racism,
and misogyny. Yeah, you can also see our past episodes
on in Cells Chadwives, Men Going their Own Way or
(01:10):
Migtao sog Noir, Why Didn't You Believe Her? White Women
in White Supremacy and Brett Kevanaugh. Also probably our whole
Trauma mini series, to be honest, but also also the
Monday mini I did about like not being Pretty Enough,
which I'll talk about a little bit more all right,
so first let us define manosphere. The generally accepted definition
(01:35):
is that the manisphere refers to a network of social
media groups and websites not necessarily directly connected to each other,
that all share the common belief that men are oppressed
by and victims of feminism and women. The manisphere breaks
down into four main groups. Men's right activists, pick up artist,
(01:56):
men going their own way, and involuntary celibates are insults.
Some people also particularly carve out red pill men.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
I think we need to just put men in podcasting.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
And then there's a part five to this because that
was a big discussion I've been seeing recently about how
men podcasts or right wing podcasts, men and podcasts. Joe
Rogan really influenced gen Zers, and I was like, oh,
that's the whole episode.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Anyway back too, So we're going.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
To briefly talk about that, but yes, it is episode.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
I'm just like, I feel like they need their own
category now, men and podcasts. Yeah, anyway back to So
the minisphere has been around since the early days of
the Internet and the two thousands, but more modernly, I
really took off in response to the twenty seventeen hashtag
me Tube movement first invented by activists to Rona Burke
in two thousand and six, and other online feminist movements
(02:52):
and conversations. It should come as no surprise to anyone
that anti feminist groups have existed since feminism has. They've
been existing even before feminism has. Let's just be real, honesty.
The Internet has just given them the platform to reach
more people.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Yeah, unfortunately, there's a lot to you if you want
to read more, there's plenty more to read about this,
But you can read the history of like especially second
wave feminism in the seventies, and how all of these
other groups of men formed against that, Like, there's always
kind of a backlash. But yes, we already know that
(03:33):
networks like this can and have led to violence, often
against women, and that young boys and men people at large,
but young boys and men particularly can be radicalized by
these spaces, and a lot of these instances of violence.
Prior to committing them, the perpetrator had been really active
in misogynist, anti feminist online communities, many of them racist, islammophobic,
(03:56):
anti semitic, homophobic, and far right leaning. Many also have
connections to white supremacist groups, neo Nazis and a right
organizations or communities if they're not that already themselves. Something
we've talked about a lot too. A lot of these
online platforms not only don't do a good job at
(04:18):
protecting their users and preventing hate speech if they do
it at all, their algorithms also boost posts like these
and facilitate the growth and radicalization of people in these communities.
People can be anonymous and they can get around a
lot of censorship because of that, and can find like
minded individuals. And you can see we did kind of
(04:40):
a mini series that we didn't really plan or announce,
but we did a lot of technology stuff at the
beginning of last year, and we talked about that with
YouTube and most of the platforms we discussed. All Right, So,
since me too often comes up in the discussion around
the rise of the manisphere, let's talk about how that
looks when it comes to these misogynists online spaces. And yes,
(05:04):
we have talked about many times before that this was
a huge movement where women were encouraged to share their
stories of sexual assault online, primarily on social medium. Anti
feminists and anti women online community slashed out in response,
going so far as to call out a feminist conspiracy
at first, especially against straight white men. Many discussed rape
(05:26):
is like it's not a thing at all, they'd said,
it was like, what are we even talking about. There
was a common undercurrent of perceived male victimization and a
desire to go back to patriarchal values they felt were
under attack or being eroded. There was a general sense
of fear of being accused of committing sexual assault and
(05:49):
an outcry about how feminism was ruining their self esteem,
that they were being discriminated against. It was a toxic
support network these men were building, and a lot of
times it is framed as a support network, as in,
we can help you men, if you're feeling bad, come here.
With the general idea that women were the problem in
(06:12):
one way or another and that they needed to return
to their natural, some missive state, and feminism needed to end.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
So after Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh's hearing about the
allegations of sexual assault leveled against him, the hashtag him
too was trending. So here's a quote. We've all seen
the horror stories. Men work their entire lives to build
his legacy, and then with one fell swoop, a mere
allegation with zero proof to back it up, destroys their lives.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Annie, did I tell you that?
Speaker 3 (06:46):
This is one of the things that my mom brought
up in our conversation during my I'm going to be
a part of a feminist podcast in which she said,
these allegations are ruining men's life and it was so
long ago. He's changed now, why won't they let him change?
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Yeah? Yeah, well we are gonna briefly touch on that too,
because of the there's a lot I'm very sorry you
meant to do with that. There's a lot to impack there.
But that idea that always bothered me too when people
would defend Donald Trump and be like that was so
(07:24):
long ago. I was like, he was sixty years, right,
he was sixty years and his reasoning.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Is never, I would never do such a thing. I'm upright,
citizen is not pretty?
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Why what the.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Exactly? And it wouldn't have been like I don't really
care about the age. It's just the hypocrisy of the art.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
He's a child until he dies, apparently.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Right, And Brett Kevin All is on Supreme Court, so
like right, Trump president again.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
He currently is like thirty something. Convictions like he's actually convicted.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Yes, So I like, this comment just makes.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Me ruining their lives, right, we're.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Ruining their lives, and like the people he works with,
the people he surrounds himself with, and a lot of
this rhetoric is very like women are just vessels to
bear children. That comes up a lot in these spaces.
The idea that their quote left over is once they're
over twenty three, which sounds very reminiscent of Jadie Vance's
Childles Cat Ladies' comments. So it's like we're going to
(08:35):
come to the election, but it's when we're talking about this,
it is very prominent in what's happening right now in
our politics. So during this discourse, many of the commenters
went out of their way to discuss the desirability of
the women in question when it came to me too, like, yeah,
(08:57):
she's never with anyone sexual assault her, which is horribly gross.
In their opinion, many of the people who came forward
were unattractive. Some even went so far as to accuse
them of dealing with rejection issues, which wow, I know.
Many of the comments were racially charged and full of
(09:18):
harmful stereotypes, often bringing out scientific reasons women were inferior.
They accused women of being witches and pedophiles. They claimed
the legal system protected women from any punishment for their
alleged abuses, so basically, they flipped the conversation so that
(09:39):
women were the abusers of men. And as mentioned, their
comments were often very racist, fat phobic, transphobic, homophobic, and contradictory. Again,
it's like, I know, we all know that they were
so contradictory overall, they dismissed the sexual assault bit altogether,
(09:59):
or argue that it should be legal against women and
went straight to worrying and raging about how this might
hurt men. Some would say that men can be victims too,
which is true, but rather than talking about getting justice
for all victims, they argue that women don't have a
right to justice until men get it first. Some also
(10:23):
claim that consent is confusing and it's on women to
stop any unwanted attack, and therefore any attack on them
is legitimate because they didn't stop it. Here's a quote
from one of these websites. Why as rape bad and
our modern Western culture girls have lay counts in the
double interpal digits? What does an extra dick matter? Sex
(10:47):
feels good and women who are being raped can also orgasm,
implying an element of enjoyment. Finally, if women never fought back,
it would not be fun for the guy, as many
violent rapes are a power thing where the guy I enjoys.
The woman fighting back just disgusting. In this case, the
commenter is implying that women with sexual experience deserve to
(11:11):
be raped, or it doesn't matter because they've had a
lot of sex, and that women enjoy rape unless they
fight back, and even then they enjoy Men enjoy that too,
according to this commenter, others suggested recording any sexual encounter
without consent to have evidence in case they were accused,
(11:34):
so like setting up cameras. Others suggested violent punishment and
even murder if a woman threatened to accuse him of
sexual assault. They often used women to legitimize their comments too,
so like my mother says, my wife says, almost to
(11:54):
be like nostalgic. For a time before women talked about
sexual assault in public, like my mother's says, wandering hands
or just a thing, stuff like that. Another frequent complaint
was that women were taking jobs from men, and then
another one was about child custody. Both women unfairly getting
(12:15):
child custody? Are women expecting too much in childcare and child.
Speaker 4 (12:18):
Payments as they did? Again contradictory.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Okay, so that was me too. Twenty seventeen. Here we
are again. There has been an even more recent rise
in the manisphere. Podcast is a part of it, in
part boosted by the first selection of Donald Chump, who
echoes the sentiment of a lot of these comments in
(12:53):
public appearances. And we will get to that in a minute.
But from all of this confused and hate, some male
influencers or man influencers as they're called, saw a business opportunity.
They made content around how boys and men weren't the problem,
it was everyone else, especially women and feminist. Here are
(13:15):
some of the big examples, and shout out to Amon
Whalen's piece the men fight back over on mother Jones,
who are helping us pull this together. So psychology professor
Jordan Peterson. He came up in twenty sixteen after he
protested a measure that would require teachers in Canada to
use a student's preferred pronoun and the videos went viral.
(13:37):
People who liked him saw him as someone who was
under attacked by sjw's use a very like father figure.
To cater to this newfound audience, he released lectures aimed
towards young men, like the Marxist lie of white privilege.
He went on tour and wrote a best selling book.
He claims he is not part of the manisphere and
(13:59):
that people that are our quote deceptive narcissists, all while
being in conversation with some of them. He's a social
Darwinist and a big proponent of looking to nature to
explain what he views as the quote natural social hierarchies.
He talks about lobsters a lot. He's seen as an
(14:19):
early version of this toxic men's self help era that
has emerged. We've spoken before about this misguided and incorrect
biodeterminist argument is very popular in the manisphere.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
So science fiction writer and publisher Theodore Robert Biehl, who
is also a Christian nationalist, racist, misogynist, and anti Semitic,
expended on what he reviewed as simplistic denominations of men.
In twenty ten, Beer the Guardian Heuote came up with
his own social sexual hierarchy, with alpha's at the top,
the male elite, the leaders of men for whom women
(14:58):
naturally lost followed by betas, deltas, gammas, lamb das, right
down to Omega's. The losers sitting outside this imaginary pyramid
of masculinity were sigmas the lone wolves. Bill defined sigmas
as quote outsiders who don't play the social game and
(15:19):
manage to win at it anyhow, and who quote often
like women, but also tend to be contemptuous of them.
They're on par with alphas, but just don't show off
about it.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
This is how they explain, like because a lot of
times in these groups they hate the alphas because they're
not the alphas. Right, the sigma is like your lone wolf,
he's not an alpha, so I can like him kind
of guy.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Is this one of those like I'm not like other guys,
I'm not like other.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Type of conversations are attracted to.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Yeah, and they're very very simplistic view.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
It feels like it's kind of one of those the
rebellious rebellious dude, the emo boy in high school in
my era. That was kind of like it last when
everybody lusted after the Jared Letto.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Of my so called life era.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Yeah, they really, They just watch a lot of nineties
films I feel like.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Oh my gosh, we are going to talk about this,
but they've gotten an aesthetic and Sigmas, by the way,
went on to become a meme in twenty twenty one.
And I wish I could just laugh at so much
of this stuff. But because it's like doing actual damage,
(16:40):
it's hard. They don't seem to realize it's become a meme.
But it has.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
Well, mean, it's kind of a constant with them, isn't that. Yeah,
they don't understand that. They're like, oh no, we're not
agreeing with you. We're just more like sarcastic, make it funny.
Oh but anyway, So Mike Sarhovic a former attorney turned
up pick artist, blogger turned digital maga warrior. He wrote
about topics like how he didn't believe date rape was
(17:06):
a thing and how to chock a woman. He wrote
a best selling book and sold supplements. Why is it
always supplements? There's always supplements involved, I swear anyway. He
played a big role in the harassment of women during
gamer Gate, and he once said quote, if a Republican
acted like me and ran for office, it'd be a movement.
Donald Trump has proven me right. People are tired of peace.
(17:30):
So the self titled President of the Minosphere, Anthony Dream Johnson,
host of the twenty one Convention, and founder of twenty
one University, the Number one School for Men, which is
a YouTube channel. He sells hats with slogans like make
women cook again, make women virgins again, which huh, and
(17:50):
make women thin again. And he's been around since two
thousand and six.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Yeah, it was kind of again, it's so hard to
find any joy in any of this, but it was
kind of funny when people were writing about him, because
they were like, Oh, he's the old that no one
cares about him in the madness sphere anymore. But he's
still around. You still doing damage, don't you doubt it? Oh? No,
for sure. Yeah. And then there's the anonymous Bronze Age
(18:19):
pervert RbAp, who was later identified as Yale Political Science PhD.
Costin Ala Mario. He wrote The Bronze Age Mindset, and
it has fans both in young conservative men, but also
in people like Trump's speechwriter and Oron Desanti's employee, who
basically said it should be required reading. In this work,
(18:40):
he wrote about how beautiful the man's body is, and
hearkens back to ancient cultures and Western civilization, claiming that
women have drained men's vital essence and compared immigrants to
hordes of zombies. He went on to write for the
magazine Man's World, which is sort of all about lifting
weights and eating meat to be more masculine. Another thing
(19:03):
that comes up a lot in the manisphere testicles fitness
YouTuber Elliott Holst is a prime example. He was radicalized
through YouTube comments. It's actually an interesting case study because
it usually we think of the content creator radicalizing people,
but he was radicalized by his commenters. Anyway, He first
(19:28):
experimented with the occult before becoming a Christian nationalist. He
blamed feminism on Karl Marx and Satan. Then later he
converted to Islam and started espousing the benefits of quote
weaponized chastity, going on to hold a talk Dominate your wife,
Dominate your life, which he did with his wife. But yeah,
(19:51):
he did a lot of sperm stuff, like sperm retention.
He was I think he was involved in that Tucker
Carlson thing where he was talking at that documentary. He
documentary is a strong word. That thing he did or
he was talking about, like exposing your testicles to UV
waves or whatever.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Oh yeah, all of that.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
I really could not I swear these were blended with
onion articles that I couldn't remember what was actual truth
or what actually was a satire.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
No, I know it's real, okay. Oh and then there's
Kevin Samuels, who's often credited with forming the Black Manisphere.
So after Trump was elected, a lot of the racism
adherent in many of these spaces created the opportunity for
(20:44):
the rise of the Black Minisphere. So basically like, I
don't be here because you're being really racist, but still
got some thoughts about this. For instance, several comments and
at least one Foundational Manifesto included languages around white women
and dating men of color and how quote wrong. It
was inter Samuels who rose to popularity in twenty twenty
(21:06):
when he pivoted from reviewing Colonne fragrances towards degrading and
condescending dating advice aim towards black women, mostly black women.
He also had a cameo on the show Atlanta and
was in a promo video with Future. He died in
twenty twenty two. Similarly, the podcast Fresh and Fit as
(21:26):
a very very same vibe where the hosts bring on
black women to insult them.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Right, and they originally wasn't like that.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
They really it went and there's other podcasters similar to
this that kind of got raped over the coals because
their entire platform was like they're the good guys, and
that's kind of how Fresh and Fit began. They seem
like cole guys who are like, oh good, we've got
people from the black community profiting off of podcasting. Thank goodness,
(21:56):
because it's podcasting. We've talked about this. It wasn't diverse
for the very for a very long time, and it's
still typically not, still technically not, and now men are
making way still making way more money than women in general.
But Fresh and Fit was one of those that people
were like, oh good, something different.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
And then they started getting more and more and more
and more.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
Like sexist and misogynist and misogynire that it became like
what is happening? And two they went into the all
right platform.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
So there's another podcast called Gigs and it's spelled s
h x t S in Gigs and they were also
like they were supposed to be the remedy to Fresh
and Fit. I think They were an English black podcasters
and then they came to Atlanta and said some really
degrading things about black women and they were like, oh,
that was your ento, that was your entire your audience.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
What were you thinking?
Speaker 3 (22:49):
And it has something to the balance of and I
think this might be a whole conversation the balance of fitness,
because they were kind of originating with like fitness content
it and then comedy content, and then it went into
this and they didn't mean to. They just kind of
their masks slipped for a second and they got called
out real hard. I haven't seen because usually this is
(23:10):
the pipeline that we see is when they finally show
their actual opinions, then they start going hand leaning that
way in order to make money off of that content.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
So I'm like, there's this conversation of like, they originally
started out this way and they had a great audience
and what that was like that made them popular, and
then it faded into.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
This, and you're what what happened?
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Right? And that we are going to talk about that
a little because anyone who knows anything about this knows
we're gonna have to talk about Andrew T. I know,
I'm sorry but it has to be done.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
That's a content warning on his own.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Honestly, here it is sorry, sorry, but distress.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
No, honestly, we do. One of the defenses the lawyer
gave was which I don't believe. But one of the
defenses he gave was he doesn't believe this. It makes money,
Like right, he saw this was an opportunity, it made
him money act and so he did it. And I
(24:15):
do think it's interesting how many of these cases they
did start as something else and then they became these
far right personalities. But anyway, many of the big names
in the black man sphere are a proponent of the
(24:37):
quote save your Self Black Men philosophy, which heaches black
men that they can improve their situation by distancing themselves
from black women and communities. One of these proponents wrote,
save Yourself black Men is not about saving the black community.
As far as we are concerned, the black community is
dead and black women were the ones who killed it.
There's a couple of really good articles about this, and
(24:57):
there's a really good MPR code Switch episode about this
where one of the women Black women described her experience
online dating and she started to pick up on like
these words people would use, and they just kept coming up,
(25:21):
and they're so popular inside these manispheres that like, if
you don't know about it, you don't but they were
kind of she started to pick up on, like, oh
that is you were consuming some kind of online content
that is damaging and bad and I do not want
to be with you.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
Right. So, writer and historian Aaron Fountain Junior has been
looking into the rise of Minisphere and he wrote this,
the white minisphere is trying to reverse the hands of
time to regain a patriarchy that they felt that they lost.
The Black Minisphere, on the other hand, are trying to
gain a sense of patriarchy that they were never entitled to.
(26:03):
And that's a big sentence like that, Yes, yeah, I
feel like we could also say that too, like Latino
creators and all of that.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Asian creators, yeah, oh yeah yeah, because.
Speaker 3 (26:17):
Under the Influence just went through a huge reckoning. Who
was an all Asian cast with two Asian women and
two Asian men, and they went through it because not
only did they call out Drew Afualo, who is a
big feminist, like we've talked about her before, and just
like the calling out and she like, you know, you
(26:37):
go negative, I'm gonna go ten times worse type of content,
but like she's always kept it real and that like
it's abrasive, but you know, it's one of those like
she's like, oh, you want to call me fat, let's
go type of conversation. And they called her out and
then the conversations came out where the Asian woman content
podcaster was like, there's a rumor a black women's vaginas
(26:59):
and went into the and then there was a whole
conversation pretty much like a racist conversation. It all started
popping off and it's under podcasts and they were making
a lot of money and then they lost it, Like
they have lost it all and have repeatedly tried to
do damage control but it's not working.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
And I love that for them.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
But it's interesting because that's exactly this is that would
follow under this as well, the fact that you are
trying to begain something that you were never welcome to
and will never be welcome to.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Yeah. Yeah, And like I said, there is a really
good episode on NPR co Switch that's all about this.
Because during the build up to the election, people were,
you know, worried, and so they did an episode called
diving into the black manisphere. But one of the points
they bring up that is, during the pandemic and in
(27:49):
our gig economy, a lot of us were spending a
lot more time isolated online or listening to podcasts, and
how that has contributed to this rise that we see
all over, which is not specific to the black menisphere,
but that's just what they were focusing on. They also
broke down the long history of gender and race politics
after black men gained the right to vote but black
(28:10):
women did not, So I really recommend it, but the
GOP did lean into that. Trump said, I'm going through
the roof of black men. Black men. I don't do
quite as well with black women, I must say, and
they had a like strategy to get black men not
to vote. But yeah, yeah, this is also exists in
other racial groups where marginalized men leave the largely white
(28:33):
male dominated manisphere due to their lack of discussions about
race or their racial serves and racism, all of it
to form their own communities. So yeah, but here we go.
Andrew Tates, I'm sorry, the so called King of Toxic masculinity.
Most of you are probably familiar with Andrew Tates, but
(28:55):
He was a former professional kickboxer and a reality show
contestant that then went on to become an influencer on
social media, and he really made a name for himself
for being the most misogynist playboy, even offering a video
course about how to sleep with more women that he
titled PhD or Pimp'in' host Greed. He had what he
(29:18):
called his hustling University. He was very big on like,
look how rich I am, and you can do it too.
Just pay me money and I'll give you this class,
which is what a lot of them do, by the way,
but he was very like, look at my Bugatti, I
think is the thing that they say. His videos on
TikTok have over twelve billion views. At one point, he
(29:39):
was the eighth most googled person in the world. He
was banned from most platforms in twenty twenty two and
then arrested on allegations of rape, exportation for pornography, and
human trafficking. He was released under house arrest and his
as I said. His attorney argued that it was all
in act, which is funny because he was banned from
(30:02):
Twitter for saying women should bear some responsibility for being
raped but Elon Musk reinstated him when he took over.
In a deleted video, he claimed he moved to Romania
because of their less harsh punishments for a rape, and
allegedly texted a woman I loved raping you. And he
was tweeting during the election, which we'll talk about a
little bit more. But yeah, he's still around, So if
(30:23):
it was an act, still doing it.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
And acting really proud of something he didn't do.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Yeah, yep. Popular podcaster Joe Rogan comes up in this
conversation too. As you said, Samantha, we should probably do
a whole thing on just what's going on in men's podcast.
But in these spaces, the people were mentioning our heroes.
They are father figures, they are older brothers. They are
(30:48):
teaching young boys and men how to be a man
in that very patriarchal sense. Recent studies have found that
these anti feminist, misogynistic views are forming younger than in
previous years, and part thanks to access to these online spaces.
Studies have also found links between toxic masculinity and sexual violence.
(31:11):
On the one I'm like, yes, yeah, I mean it
feels obvious, but they were like, see, not.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
So a twenty twenty four UK report deemed the violence
against women and girls They're a national emergency and concluded
the rise of radicalization amongst men and boys are terrifying.
They were reporting the equivalent to three thousand crimes a day.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
That they were linking to this right. An early twenty
twenty four study out of the country out of the UK,
found that six out of ten boys aged eleven to
fourteen had been exposed to misogynistic content online. Yeah also
found that about sixty percent were led to this content
with AI algorithms. Multiple reports have found teachers struggling to
(31:58):
combat with this, especially the popularity of Andrew Tait. Multiple
countries have had reports about this with teachers and Andrew
Tate and struggle. People surveyed reported arise in things like
rape jokes and a rewarding of bad behavior. So like
in one instance, some boys maybe made him make rape
(32:21):
joke and they basically just got to like go sit
outside for a while, they got out of class essentially.
Speaker 3 (32:28):
Right, Well, we also know when they harass young women,
they don't do anything either, and they punish both in
school oftentimes. So here's a quote from a teen vogue
op ed by Lex mcmanmon called Andrew Tate and the
Minisphere show how far hating women can get you. So
they write que the objectionable, misleading headlines, reminding us to
(32:49):
be kinder to men, to cater to boys, to basically
go all in on reinforcing patriarchy and hopes that it
sues humiliation and saves lives. That feminists are undervaluing men's
emotions and that's why romantic relationships aren't working. That personal
writing is getting ruined by women's self victimizing tendencies. Essentially,
(33:10):
that feminism is focusing too much on women and not
enough on men. At nauseum until I have an aneurysm,
I guess.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Yes, and it goes on. The algorithm isn't some kind
of abstract, preordained, divine creation. It's basically the preferences of
the guys who wrote it made it into a machine
churning away, writes economist umher Haik. The fame of man
influencers is created. It's not some kind of natural phenomenon
reflecting some kind of innate desire of the male psyche.
(33:38):
So all of this has been connected to the rise
of angry white men doing the first Trump presidency and
what is called aggrieved entitlement, and it is something that
comes up whenever Bridget comes on and talks about technology.
Is why that's so important? Who's making this technology? And
I do remember I remember walking home soon after the
(34:01):
twenty sixteen election and a group of boys was just
chanting grab her by the pody to every woman walked
to by. So there's definitely they were pretty young.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Right, and now the new chant is your body, my choice.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
Yep, we're gonna talk about uh oh no, okay. So
a lot of this content is interspersed throughout with jokes
or unrelated anecdotes. Andrew Tait was very good at that,
so the creator can pull off the classic It was
a joke like so you can you could start to
(34:38):
watch something and not know how toxic it is. And
one of the studies were referencing here. They did one
that was like, overtly this is and then they did
one that was very much framed was like this is
a support group. But once you kind of dug into it,
m mmmmmm. They frequently claim that they are evidence based.
(35:03):
They are not. They say they would never vote for
a politician who is a woman, and yeah too, reiterate,
these creators are making bank major corporations make money off
of credibly accused and convicted Manisphere folks while laying off
their own employees. Popular media does play a role as well.
That could be a whole separate episode, but there have
(35:24):
been a lot of articles written about characters like Patrick
Bateman from American Psycho, one of their heroes who also
embodies the hustler aspect that's common throughout all of these things,
Homelander from The Boys, Joaquin Phoenix's the Joker but not
the new one heaven forbid, or they're like guiding stars
(35:44):
for those in the Manisphere, even though they are often
completely misinterpreting. Satire ar critique of those characters, Yep and
DeSantis played on this very year showing some of these
characters in a political ad, which I have to say
was very homo erotic and I wish I could just
(36:06):
laugh at it instead of it having political ramifications. But
it was very homrotics.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
I mean that was half of like Trump people idealizing
and idolizing Trump and making him into these weird caricature
figures with like the muscular dude or like over the like.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
What are y'all doing this is just great.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
So much of this is obsession around like muscles and
I'm this Rhonda santis Ad had like sweaty men wrestling
with each other. I was shocked that no one was like, Hi,
(36:51):
this is odd. But that's why when you said, like
so many of these are supplements, it's because a lot
of it is I will I will sell you this
fitness XYZ, right, and then you can get the women,
because that's all it takes, I guess. And unfortunately we
(37:23):
should also probably come back to this. We're good. Are
a lot of homework on this one. There are a
lot of global examples. We're mostly talking about United States
in this, but these man influencers and others that we
have not mentioned truly have become a global influence. They
have a global reach. There have been recent articles from
South Korea, Australia, India, and Kenya about the damage of them,
(37:45):
just to name a few, and the effects have been
pretty horrific. Like I was reading accounts from women in
Kenya and they were saying it felt so sudden, like
this was not a problem before, but then he starts
using this terminology and then he becomes violent, and then
like and it's these manisphere spaces. Also, this has been
(38:10):
a long time on mar List, but women hating women
because this is not just men who are a part
of this. It is important to note that women can
be a part of these communities as well in some capacity,
because like we talked about with in cells, there's sort
of a like you can be but only down here.
Or they have their own anti feminists, anti women communities.
(38:35):
Chadwives is a good example, turfs good example, the whole
not like other women idea. So they are a part
of these online spaces and they are influencers in them.
They are consumers of them, and even if they aren't,
they can pick that stuff up from usually the men
(38:56):
in their lives. I did think about a knives out
glass onion, or there was that character who was dating
Dave Bautista and she he was a man influencer and
she was doing like playing it up and like, oh,
I also love women and boobs, huh. But then later
(39:17):
when she's being honest, she's like, oh, yeah, I'm just
using that to get a leg up. So I don't know.
There was a whole conversation to be had about women
in Trump's Cabinet. In all of this, there's a conversation
to be had about confirmation bias, which is when, in
this case, when women are afraid of proving stereotypes correct
(39:42):
so they don't like Usually it's like, oh, it's like
in a personal example, I dropped out of calculus because
I was afraid of proving the stereotype correct that women
are bad at math. So I think that's part of
this too, and it does influence women, influence women, even
if you disagree, because you can see my Monday mini
(40:02):
I did about not being pretty enough to be raped,
for one example. So this stuff is there. And then
when you're looking at white women in white supremacy going
for Trump twice, I think this is a combo of
white supremacy and hating other women. It's placing whiteness over gender.
But yes, there are many examples of women and white
(40:24):
women making this content like this same in this manisphere,
even though the people in manisphere are like, that's cute, right,
I'll accept you, But.
Speaker 3 (40:36):
Right, I mean Naas Smith is kind of a great
example of truly disassociating her identity for.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Gain.
Speaker 3 (40:51):
I guess I don't know as like a person of color,
a woman of color who had come into this. She
never says anything about being a trap wise if she
kind of just keeps it low with the I my
husband wants this, so I'm going to make this from scratch.
He wanted gums, so I'm going to make it from scratch.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
By this with this.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
Very calm and soothing voice. I think it did come
out that her husband is a Trump supporter, like he
finally admitted to it, or like he endorsed Trump. I
don't know, but everybody's kind of like, what are you doing?
And her feeding into this narrative because it's making her
money and she doesn't care because as long as she
is quote unquote safe. Now she's not saying all this,
(41:30):
but this is the attitude that is bringing it on,
Like she doesn't care because for her, this is making
her money, this is making him money. She's getting to
do all these things and this popularity alone is enough.
But the amount of money she's getting as a content
creator is over the top. And she's really just like
disassociating the vict that, ay, you're about to get all
(41:51):
of this taken away from you and you're only being
accepted because you're playing their part. That they are allowing
you to play the missive wife that does whatever he
wants at the drop of the die. Having sixteen children,
that's not how many children, but you know what I mean.
It's an interesting conversation, but just also with white women
in general, Like there's this interview. I don't know if
(42:13):
you saw this interview where this woman who is a
Trump supporter, I think she did some things with a campaign,
was like, I'm the VP of this organization that is
supporting Trump, but I would love to be at home
not doing this. And this is what's gonna be great
is when trumpet in the support I can be of
wife and not have to worry.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
About all these things that are.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Like you could have done that much, you can't do that.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
What is stopping you? That's the whole point of that choice.
We want you to do what it is that you
want to do.
Speaker 3 (42:45):
It. If it's just to be a stay at home mom,
just make sure you find that partner. Yeah, that's going
to support, which sounds like is the problem not other women?
Speaker 2 (42:55):
So I don't understand.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
Right right, Well, there was a and I keep coming
back to this even though it happened in twenty sixteen,
but there was a brief interview I saw of a
woman who was a Trump supporter, and the interviewer she's
just asking her why she wouldn't vote for Clinton, and
she was like, well, I think you know women, aren't
(43:17):
they They aren't leadership material and she listed a bunch
of reasons, and then he was like, but you own
your own automobile shop, right, and she's like, oh, yeah,
I'm really good and and he was like, so do
you think that you can't lead it? And she was like,
oh no, no, no, no, no, not me. I'm really good. Yeah.
So like that that dissonance, that disconnect right of like
(43:39):
I'm not like those of their girls. I am because
we still demonize women so much. It's the lesser that
it doesn't make sense. It's like, no, no for me,
is a great for you?
Speaker 2 (43:55):
I'm right.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Conversation of like they can't suck it up? Why do
they have to shake things up?
Speaker 1 (44:06):
Mm hmmm.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
We just wanted to say what it is.
Speaker 3 (44:08):
But at the same time, they're the one that's making progress,
Like they don't even realize they're part of the progress.
Speaker 2 (44:12):
And you're like, baby, there.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
Right there.
Speaker 3 (44:20):
And the same woman that I was talking about talks
about how she doesn't think women should be allowed to vote,
and I'm like, you're a part of you are the
leadership of an organization for POTT what.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
Yes, m hm, oh, why are you here?
Speaker 2 (44:34):
Why are you here?
Speaker 1 (44:36):
It's a great question, Samantha, It's a great question. But yes.
All of this does, unfortunately bring us to the recent
presidential election results, which was influenced by a lot of
this and has given even more credence to these toxic
ideas amongst these communities. Soon after Trump's win was announced
(44:57):
and cells started posting the slogan your body might t
It was popularized by white supremacist Nick Fuentes, who said
on election night, we control your bodies. Guess what, guys
went again? Okay, men went again. There will never ever
be a female president. It's over glass ceiling is a
glass made of bricks. Another variation is we own your
(45:18):
bodies now, and there have been reports of young boys
chanting this in classes. There were also violent memes and
calls for rape squads.
Speaker 3 (45:29):
Right and unfortunately. Andrew Tate has also been active on Twitter,
saying I saw a woman crossing the road today, but
I just kept my foot down right of way.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
You no longer have rights.
Speaker 1 (45:40):
That's like one of the least offensive things he said.
But yep, there's been similar racist phrases proliferating too, And
now there have been a lot of recent studies done
about how often these are either bots or young men
that like willed when discovered like children. But I think
(46:01):
we should keep it in mind that it doesn't negate
the fact that this is harmful silencing the sympt of
much larger issues. And there are plenty plenty of people
who think this and are making money off of it.
Trump appeared on these shows. He appealed to the manisphere
with his very do whatever you want, say whatever you want,
(46:22):
be rich, no consequences attitude. He thanked them by name
and a recent speech he's got his whole love of
UFC wrestling. There it fits wright in. People who consume
this content are far more likely to be pro authoritarian,
pro dictator, pro fascism because they believe in this strong
(46:42):
man narrative. They also argue that women and people of color,
depending on the group, shouldn't have the right to vote.
So yeah, that's this. Wasn't just that woman saying that.
And to be clear, all of this has contributed to
an uptick of sexual assault, violence and murder, including the
increase in men slaying their entire families, which I know
(47:02):
has been on our list for a while to talk about,
but it came up doing this research. So yeah, there's
a lot of work to be done here. It's not
going to be easy. Thank you to all the journalists
who are reporting on this, who have often been harassed
or docsed or silenced by publishers unwilling to publish their
(47:24):
work there. I mean, there are some basic like having
more women in marginalized folks in tech would be great,
Holding platforms accountable would be great. There are organizations and
resources online, especially for guardians who are seeing this in
their children or want to prevent it, so you can
(47:44):
you can look that up. Those do exist, and there
are people doing this often very difficult work that could
get you harassed online or worse.
Speaker 3 (47:55):
Right Also, now that I'm thinking about it, we need
to figure out where are we going to go, like
social media wise, because obviously Twitter is nah, Facebook is
a nana, Instagram is also nah.
Speaker 2 (48:10):
So where are we going? Andie and TikTok is gonna
be banned?
Speaker 1 (48:12):
Y'all?
Speaker 3 (48:13):
Where's everybody meeting at famam at speaking of tech.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
Trump will be interesting about TikTok because the billionaire convinced
him not to ban it. Oh, but then he got
real mad.
Speaker 3 (48:25):
But then he's going to get real control going to
how much he's going to blame things on China.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
We have to see about that.
Speaker 3 (48:32):
He might try to distract from what's been happening with
Russia recently. But who knows all that to say? Is
fam where we at Blue Sky? I heard that's the thing?
Are we going back to discord? We talked about that
for a minute.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
Well, let us know listens where we go, and funnily enough,
you could still contact us in those places, So please
let us know if you have any thoughts about this.
And yeah, if you just have any topics you want
us to cover, any resources you want us to shout out,
you can emails and Steffan your mom stuff at I Heeart Media.
You can find us on Twitter at Mom's a podcast,
(49:10):
or on Instagram and TikTok and stuff. Never told you.
We're also on YouTube. We have a tea Public story
and we have a book you can get wherever you
get your book. Thanks as always to our super producer
Christina Executive producer Maya and her contributor Joey. Thank you
and thanks to you for listening. Stuff Never Told You
is production by Heart Radio. For more podcasts or my
heart Radio, you can check out the heart Radio app,
Apple podcast or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to staff.
One Never Told You production of iHeartRadio, and today, as
we're recording this, it is November twelfth, twenty twenty four.
This is one of those things where I've been meaning
(00:28):
to talk about for a while because I've seen a
lot of articles written about it recently. But when I
looked at our very convoluted RSS page, I was surprised
no one's ever talked about it before. So this is new.
We've talked a lot about things surrounding it, but we
have never done an episode on the Manisphere, which is
(00:49):
what we're talking about today. That being said, probably no
surprise to people who are familiar. Content warning for non
explicit discussions of rape, sexual assault, violin against women, racism,
and misogyny. Yeah, you can also see our past episodes
on in Cells Chadwives, Men Going their Own Way or
(01:10):
Migtao sog Noir, Why Didn't You Believe Her? White Women
in White Supremacy and Brett Kevanaugh. Also probably our whole
Trauma mini series, to be honest, but also also the
Monday mini I did about like not being Pretty Enough,
which I'll talk about a little bit more all right,
so first let us define manosphere. The generally accepted definition
(01:35):
is that the manisphere refers to a network of social
media groups and websites not necessarily directly connected to each other,
that all share the common belief that men are oppressed
by and victims of feminism and women. The manisphere breaks
down into four main groups. Men's right activists, pick up artist,
(01:56):
men going their own way, and involuntary celibates are insults.
Some people also particularly carve out red pill men.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
I think we need to just put men in podcasting.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
And then there's a part five to this because that
was a big discussion I've been seeing recently about how
men podcasts or right wing podcasts, men and podcasts. Joe
Rogan really influenced gen Zers, and I was like, oh,
that's the whole episode.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Anyway back too, So we're going.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
To briefly talk about that, but yes, it is episode.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
I'm just like, I feel like they need their own
category now, men and podcasts. Yeah, anyway back to So
the minisphere has been around since the early days of
the Internet and the two thousands, but more modernly, I
really took off in response to the twenty seventeen hashtag
me Tube movement first invented by activists to Rona Burke
in two thousand and six, and other online feminist movements
(02:52):
and conversations. It should come as no surprise to anyone
that anti feminist groups have existed since feminism has. They've
been existing even before feminism has. Let's just be real, honesty.
The Internet has just given them the platform to reach
more people.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Yeah, unfortunately, there's a lot to you if you want
to read more, there's plenty more to read about this,
But you can read the history of like especially second
wave feminism in the seventies, and how all of these
other groups of men formed against that, Like, there's always
kind of a backlash. But yes, we already know that
(03:33):
networks like this can and have led to violence, often
against women, and that young boys and men people at large,
but young boys and men particularly can be radicalized by
these spaces, and a lot of these instances of violence.
Prior to committing them, the perpetrator had been really active
in misogynist, anti feminist online communities, many of them racist, islammophobic,
(03:56):
anti semitic, homophobic, and far right leaning. Many also have
connections to white supremacist groups, neo Nazis and a right
organizations or communities if they're not that already themselves. Something
we've talked about a lot too. A lot of these
online platforms not only don't do a good job at
(04:18):
protecting their users and preventing hate speech if they do
it at all, their algorithms also boost posts like these
and facilitate the growth and radicalization of people in these communities.
People can be anonymous and they can get around a
lot of censorship because of that, and can find like
minded individuals. And you can see we did kind of
(04:40):
a mini series that we didn't really plan or announce,
but we did a lot of technology stuff at the
beginning of last year, and we talked about that with
YouTube and most of the platforms we discussed. All Right, So,
since me too often comes up in the discussion around
the rise of the manisphere, let's talk about how that
looks when it comes to these misogynists online spaces. And yes,
(05:04):
we have talked about many times before that this was
a huge movement where women were encouraged to share their
stories of sexual assault online, primarily on social medium. Anti
feminists and anti women online community slashed out in response,
going so far as to call out a feminist conspiracy
at first, especially against straight white men. Many discussed rape
(05:26):
is like it's not a thing at all, they'd said,
it was like, what are we even talking about. There
was a common undercurrent of perceived male victimization and a
desire to go back to patriarchal values they felt were
under attack or being eroded. There was a general sense
of fear of being accused of committing sexual assault and
(05:49):
an outcry about how feminism was ruining their self esteem,
that they were being discriminated against. It was a toxic
support network these men were building, and a lot of
times it is framed as a support network, as in,
we can help you men, if you're feeling bad, come here.
With the general idea that women were the problem in
(06:12):
one way or another and that they needed to return
to their natural, some missive state, and feminism needed to end.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
So after Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh's hearing about the
allegations of sexual assault leveled against him, the hashtag him
too was trending. So here's a quote. We've all seen
the horror stories. Men work their entire lives to build
his legacy, and then with one fell swoop, a mere
allegation with zero proof to back it up, destroys their lives.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Annie, did I tell you that?
Speaker 3 (06:46):
This is one of the things that my mom brought
up in our conversation during my I'm going to be
a part of a feminist podcast in which she said,
these allegations are ruining men's life and it was so
long ago. He's changed now, why won't they let him change?
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Yeah? Yeah, well we are gonna briefly touch on that too,
because of the there's a lot I'm very sorry you
meant to do with that. There's a lot to impack there.
But that idea that always bothered me too when people
would defend Donald Trump and be like that was so
(07:24):
long ago. I was like, he was sixty years, right,
he was sixty years and his reasoning.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Is never, I would never do such a thing. I'm upright,
citizen is not pretty?
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Why what the.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Exactly? And it wouldn't have been like I don't really
care about the age. It's just the hypocrisy of the art.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
He's a child until he dies, apparently.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Right, And Brett Kevin All is on Supreme Court, so
like right, Trump president again.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
He currently is like thirty something. Convictions like he's actually convicted.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Yes, So I like, this comment just makes.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Me ruining their lives, right, we're.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Ruining their lives, and like the people he works with,
the people he surrounds himself with, and a lot of
this rhetoric is very like women are just vessels to
bear children. That comes up a lot in these spaces.
The idea that their quote left over is once they're
over twenty three, which sounds very reminiscent of Jadie Vance's
Childles Cat Ladies' comments. So it's like we're going to
(08:35):
come to the election, but it's when we're talking about this,
it is very prominent in what's happening right now in
our politics. So during this discourse, many of the commenters
went out of their way to discuss the desirability of
the women in question when it came to me too, like, yeah,
(08:57):
she's never with anyone sexual assault her, which is horribly gross.
In their opinion, many of the people who came forward
were unattractive. Some even went so far as to accuse
them of dealing with rejection issues, which wow, I know.
Many of the comments were racially charged and full of
(09:18):
harmful stereotypes, often bringing out scientific reasons women were inferior.
They accused women of being witches and pedophiles. They claimed
the legal system protected women from any punishment for their
alleged abuses, so basically, they flipped the conversation so that
(09:39):
women were the abusers of men. And as mentioned, their
comments were often very racist, fat phobic, transphobic, homophobic, and contradictory. Again,
it's like, I know, we all know that they were
so contradictory overall, they dismissed the sexual assault bit altogether,
(09:59):
or argue that it should be legal against women and
went straight to worrying and raging about how this might
hurt men. Some would say that men can be victims too,
which is true, but rather than talking about getting justice
for all victims, they argue that women don't have a
right to justice until men get it first. Some also
(10:23):
claim that consent is confusing and it's on women to
stop any unwanted attack, and therefore any attack on them
is legitimate because they didn't stop it. Here's a quote
from one of these websites. Why as rape bad and
our modern Western culture girls have lay counts in the
double interpal digits? What does an extra dick matter? Sex
(10:47):
feels good and women who are being raped can also orgasm,
implying an element of enjoyment. Finally, if women never fought back,
it would not be fun for the guy, as many
violent rapes are a power thing where the guy I enjoys.
The woman fighting back just disgusting. In this case, the
commenter is implying that women with sexual experience deserve to
(11:11):
be raped, or it doesn't matter because they've had a
lot of sex, and that women enjoy rape unless they
fight back, and even then they enjoy Men enjoy that too,
according to this commenter, others suggested recording any sexual encounter
without consent to have evidence in case they were accused,
(11:34):
so like setting up cameras. Others suggested violent punishment and
even murder if a woman threatened to accuse him of
sexual assault. They often used women to legitimize their comments too,
so like my mother says, my wife says, almost to
(11:54):
be like nostalgic. For a time before women talked about
sexual assault in public, like my mother's says, wandering hands
or just a thing, stuff like that. Another frequent complaint
was that women were taking jobs from men, and then
another one was about child custody. Both women unfairly getting
(12:15):
child custody? Are women expecting too much in childcare and child.
Speaker 4 (12:18):
Payments as they did? Again contradictory.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Okay, so that was me too. Twenty seventeen. Here we
are again. There has been an even more recent rise
in the manisphere. Podcast is a part of it, in
part boosted by the first selection of Donald Chump, who
echoes the sentiment of a lot of these comments in
(12:53):
public appearances. And we will get to that in a minute.
But from all of this confused and hate, some male
influencers or man influencers as they're called, saw a business opportunity.
They made content around how boys and men weren't the problem,
it was everyone else, especially women and feminist. Here are
(13:15):
some of the big examples, and shout out to Amon
Whalen's piece the men fight back over on mother Jones,
who are helping us pull this together. So psychology professor
Jordan Peterson. He came up in twenty sixteen after he
protested a measure that would require teachers in Canada to
use a student's preferred pronoun and the videos went viral.
(13:37):
People who liked him saw him as someone who was
under attacked by sjw's use a very like father figure.
To cater to this newfound audience, he released lectures aimed
towards young men, like the Marxist lie of white privilege.
He went on tour and wrote a best selling book.
He claims he is not part of the manisphere and
(13:59):
that people that are our quote deceptive narcissists, all while
being in conversation with some of them. He's a social
Darwinist and a big proponent of looking to nature to
explain what he views as the quote natural social hierarchies.
He talks about lobsters a lot. He's seen as an
(14:19):
early version of this toxic men's self help era that
has emerged. We've spoken before about this misguided and incorrect
biodeterminist argument is very popular in the manisphere.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
So science fiction writer and publisher Theodore Robert Biehl, who
is also a Christian nationalist, racist, misogynist, and anti Semitic,
expended on what he reviewed as simplistic denominations of men.
In twenty ten, Beer the Guardian Heuote came up with
his own social sexual hierarchy, with alpha's at the top,
the male elite, the leaders of men for whom women
(14:58):
naturally lost followed by betas, deltas, gammas, lamb das, right
down to Omega's. The losers sitting outside this imaginary pyramid
of masculinity were sigmas the lone wolves. Bill defined sigmas
as quote outsiders who don't play the social game and
(15:19):
manage to win at it anyhow, and who quote often
like women, but also tend to be contemptuous of them.
They're on par with alphas, but just don't show off
about it.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
This is how they explain, like because a lot of
times in these groups they hate the alphas because they're
not the alphas. Right, the sigma is like your lone wolf,
he's not an alpha, so I can like him kind
of guy.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Is this one of those like I'm not like other guys,
I'm not like other.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Type of conversations are attracted to.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Yeah, and they're very very simplistic view.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
It feels like it's kind of one of those the
rebellious rebellious dude, the emo boy in high school in
my era. That was kind of like it last when
everybody lusted after the Jared Letto.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Of my so called life era.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Yeah, they really, They just watch a lot of nineties
films I feel like.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Oh my gosh, we are going to talk about this,
but they've gotten an aesthetic and Sigmas, by the way,
went on to become a meme in twenty twenty one.
And I wish I could just laugh at so much
of this stuff. But because it's like doing actual damage,
(16:40):
it's hard. They don't seem to realize it's become a meme.
But it has.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
Well, mean, it's kind of a constant with them, isn't that. Yeah,
they don't understand that. They're like, oh no, we're not
agreeing with you. We're just more like sarcastic, make it funny.
Oh but anyway, So Mike Sarhovic a former attorney turned
up pick artist, blogger turned digital maga warrior. He wrote
about topics like how he didn't believe date rape was
(17:06):
a thing and how to chock a woman. He wrote
a best selling book and sold supplements. Why is it
always supplements? There's always supplements involved, I swear anyway. He
played a big role in the harassment of women during
gamer Gate, and he once said quote, if a Republican
acted like me and ran for office, it'd be a movement.
Donald Trump has proven me right. People are tired of peace.
(17:30):
So the self titled President of the Minosphere, Anthony Dream Johnson,
host of the twenty one Convention, and founder of twenty
one University, the Number one School for Men, which is
a YouTube channel. He sells hats with slogans like make
women cook again, make women virgins again, which huh, and
(17:50):
make women thin again. And he's been around since two
thousand and six.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Yeah, it was kind of again, it's so hard to
find any joy in any of this, but it was
kind of funny when people were writing about him, because
they were like, Oh, he's the old that no one
cares about him in the madness sphere anymore. But he's
still around. You still doing damage, don't you doubt it? Oh? No,
for sure. Yeah. And then there's the anonymous Bronze Age
(18:19):
pervert RbAp, who was later identified as Yale Political Science PhD.
Costin Ala Mario. He wrote The Bronze Age Mindset, and
it has fans both in young conservative men, but also
in people like Trump's speechwriter and Oron Desanti's employee, who
basically said it should be required reading. In this work,
(18:40):
he wrote about how beautiful the man's body is, and
hearkens back to ancient cultures and Western civilization, claiming that
women have drained men's vital essence and compared immigrants to
hordes of zombies. He went on to write for the
magazine Man's World, which is sort of all about lifting
weights and eating meat to be more masculine. Another thing
(19:03):
that comes up a lot in the manisphere testicles fitness
YouTuber Elliott Holst is a prime example. He was radicalized
through YouTube comments. It's actually an interesting case study because
it usually we think of the content creator radicalizing people,
but he was radicalized by his commenters. Anyway, He first
(19:28):
experimented with the occult before becoming a Christian nationalist. He
blamed feminism on Karl Marx and Satan. Then later he
converted to Islam and started espousing the benefits of quote
weaponized chastity, going on to hold a talk Dominate your wife,
Dominate your life, which he did with his wife. But yeah,
(19:51):
he did a lot of sperm stuff, like sperm retention.
He was I think he was involved in that Tucker
Carlson thing where he was talking at that documentary. He
documentary is a strong word. That thing he did or
he was talking about, like exposing your testicles to UV
waves or whatever.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Oh yeah, all of that.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
I really could not I swear these were blended with
onion articles that I couldn't remember what was actual truth
or what actually was a satire.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
No, I know it's real, okay. Oh and then there's
Kevin Samuels, who's often credited with forming the Black Manisphere.
So after Trump was elected, a lot of the racism
adherent in many of these spaces created the opportunity for
(20:44):
the rise of the Black Minisphere. So basically like, I
don't be here because you're being really racist, but still
got some thoughts about this. For instance, several comments and
at least one Foundational Manifesto included languages around white women
and dating men of color and how quote wrong. It
was inter Samuels who rose to popularity in twenty twenty
(21:06):
when he pivoted from reviewing Colonne fragrances towards degrading and
condescending dating advice aim towards black women, mostly black women.
He also had a cameo on the show Atlanta and
was in a promo video with Future. He died in
twenty twenty two. Similarly, the podcast Fresh and Fit as
(21:26):
a very very same vibe where the hosts bring on
black women to insult them.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Right, and they originally wasn't like that.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
They really it went and there's other podcasters similar to
this that kind of got raped over the coals because
their entire platform was like they're the good guys, and
that's kind of how Fresh and Fit began. They seem
like cole guys who are like, oh good, we've got
people from the black community profiting off of podcasting. Thank goodness,
(21:56):
because it's podcasting. We've talked about this. It wasn't diverse
for the very for a very long time, and it's
still typically not, still technically not, and now men are
making way still making way more money than women in general.
But Fresh and Fit was one of those that people
were like, oh good, something different.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
And then they started getting more and more and more
and more.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
Like sexist and misogynist and misogynire that it became like
what is happening? And two they went into the all
right platform.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
So there's another podcast called Gigs and it's spelled s
h x t S in Gigs and they were also
like they were supposed to be the remedy to Fresh
and Fit. I think They were an English black podcasters
and then they came to Atlanta and said some really
degrading things about black women and they were like, oh,
that was your ento, that was your entire your audience.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
What were you thinking?
Speaker 3 (22:49):
And it has something to the balance of and I
think this might be a whole conversation the balance of fitness,
because they were kind of originating with like fitness content
it and then comedy content, and then it went into
this and they didn't mean to. They just kind of
their masks slipped for a second and they got called
out real hard. I haven't seen because usually this is
(23:10):
the pipeline that we see is when they finally show
their actual opinions, then they start going hand leaning that
way in order to make money off of that content.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
So I'm like, there's this conversation of like, they originally
started out this way and they had a great audience
and what that was like that made them popular, and
then it faded into.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
This, and you're what what happened?
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Right? And that we are going to talk about that
a little because anyone who knows anything about this knows
we're gonna have to talk about Andrew T. I know,
I'm sorry but it has to be done.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
That's a content warning on his own.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Honestly, here it is sorry, sorry, but distress.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
No, honestly, we do. One of the defenses the lawyer
gave was which I don't believe. But one of the
defenses he gave was he doesn't believe this. It makes money,
Like right, he saw this was an opportunity, it made
him money act and so he did it. And I
(24:15):
do think it's interesting how many of these cases they
did start as something else and then they became these
far right personalities. But anyway, many of the big names
in the black man sphere are a proponent of the
(24:37):
quote save your Self Black Men philosophy, which heaches black
men that they can improve their situation by distancing themselves
from black women and communities. One of these proponents wrote,
save Yourself black Men is not about saving the black community.
As far as we are concerned, the black community is
dead and black women were the ones who killed it.
There's a couple of really good articles about this, and
(24:57):
there's a really good MPR code Switch episode about this
where one of the women Black women described her experience
online dating and she started to pick up on like
these words people would use, and they just kept coming up,
(25:21):
and they're so popular inside these manispheres that like, if
you don't know about it, you don't but they were
kind of she started to pick up on, like, oh
that is you were consuming some kind of online content
that is damaging and bad and I do not want
to be with you.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
Right. So, writer and historian Aaron Fountain Junior has been
looking into the rise of Minisphere and he wrote this,
the white minisphere is trying to reverse the hands of
time to regain a patriarchy that they felt that they lost.
The Black Minisphere, on the other hand, are trying to
gain a sense of patriarchy that they were never entitled to.
(26:03):
And that's a big sentence like that, Yes, yeah, I
feel like we could also say that too, like Latino
creators and all of that.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Asian creators, yeah, oh yeah yeah, because.
Speaker 3 (26:17):
Under the Influence just went through a huge reckoning. Who
was an all Asian cast with two Asian women and
two Asian men, and they went through it because not
only did they call out Drew Afualo, who is a
big feminist, like we've talked about her before, and just
like the calling out and she like, you know, you
(26:37):
go negative, I'm gonna go ten times worse type of content,
but like she's always kept it real and that like
it's abrasive, but you know, it's one of those like
she's like, oh, you want to call me fat, let's
go type of conversation. And they called her out and
then the conversations came out where the Asian woman content
podcaster was like, there's a rumor a black women's vaginas
(26:59):
and went into the and then there was a whole
conversation pretty much like a racist conversation. It all started
popping off and it's under podcasts and they were making
a lot of money and then they lost it, Like
they have lost it all and have repeatedly tried to
do damage control but it's not working.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
And I love that for them.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
But it's interesting because that's exactly this is that would
follow under this as well, the fact that you are
trying to begain something that you were never welcome to
and will never be welcome to.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Yeah. Yeah, And like I said, there is a really
good episode on NPR co Switch that's all about this.
Because during the build up to the election, people were,
you know, worried, and so they did an episode called
diving into the black manisphere. But one of the points
they bring up that is, during the pandemic and in
(27:49):
our gig economy, a lot of us were spending a
lot more time isolated online or listening to podcasts, and
how that has contributed to this rise that we see
all over, which is not specific to the black menisphere,
but that's just what they were focusing on. They also
broke down the long history of gender and race politics
after black men gained the right to vote but black
(28:10):
women did not, So I really recommend it, but the
GOP did lean into that. Trump said, I'm going through
the roof of black men. Black men. I don't do
quite as well with black women, I must say, and
they had a like strategy to get black men not
to vote. But yeah, yeah, this is also exists in
other racial groups where marginalized men leave the largely white
(28:33):
male dominated manisphere due to their lack of discussions about
race or their racial serves and racism, all of it
to form their own communities. So yeah, but here we go.
Andrew Tates, I'm sorry, the so called King of Toxic masculinity.
Most of you are probably familiar with Andrew Tates, but
(28:55):
He was a former professional kickboxer and a reality show
contestant that then went on to become an influencer on
social media, and he really made a name for himself
for being the most misogynist playboy, even offering a video
course about how to sleep with more women that he
titled PhD or Pimp'in' host Greed. He had what he
(29:18):
called his hustling University. He was very big on like,
look how rich I am, and you can do it too.
Just pay me money and I'll give you this class,
which is what a lot of them do, by the way,
but he was very like, look at my Bugatti, I
think is the thing that they say. His videos on
TikTok have over twelve billion views. At one point, he
(29:39):
was the eighth most googled person in the world. He
was banned from most platforms in twenty twenty two and
then arrested on allegations of rape, exportation for pornography, and
human trafficking. He was released under house arrest and his
as I said. His attorney argued that it was all
in act, which is funny because he was banned from
(30:02):
Twitter for saying women should bear some responsibility for being
raped but Elon Musk reinstated him when he took over.
In a deleted video, he claimed he moved to Romania
because of their less harsh punishments for a rape, and
allegedly texted a woman I loved raping you. And he
was tweeting during the election, which we'll talk about a
little bit more. But yeah, he's still around, So if
(30:23):
it was an act, still doing it.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
And acting really proud of something he didn't do.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Yeah, yep. Popular podcaster Joe Rogan comes up in this
conversation too. As you said, Samantha, we should probably do
a whole thing on just what's going on in men's podcast.
But in these spaces, the people were mentioning our heroes.
They are father figures, they are older brothers. They are
(30:48):
teaching young boys and men how to be a man
in that very patriarchal sense. Recent studies have found that
these anti feminist, misogynistic views are forming younger than in
previous years, and part thanks to access to these online spaces.
Studies have also found links between toxic masculinity and sexual violence.
(31:11):
On the one I'm like, yes, yeah, I mean it
feels obvious, but they were like, see, not.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
So a twenty twenty four UK report deemed the violence
against women and girls They're a national emergency and concluded
the rise of radicalization amongst men and boys are terrifying.
They were reporting the equivalent to three thousand crimes a day.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
That they were linking to this right. An early twenty
twenty four study out of the country out of the UK,
found that six out of ten boys aged eleven to
fourteen had been exposed to misogynistic content online. Yeah also
found that about sixty percent were led to this content
with AI algorithms. Multiple reports have found teachers struggling to
(31:58):
combat with this, especially the popularity of Andrew Tait. Multiple
countries have had reports about this with teachers and Andrew
Tate and struggle. People surveyed reported arise in things like
rape jokes and a rewarding of bad behavior. So like
in one instance, some boys maybe made him make rape
(32:21):
joke and they basically just got to like go sit
outside for a while, they got out of class essentially.
Speaker 3 (32:28):
Right, Well, we also know when they harass young women,
they don't do anything either, and they punish both in
school oftentimes. So here's a quote from a teen vogue
op ed by Lex mcmanmon called Andrew Tate and the
Minisphere show how far hating women can get you. So
they write que the objectionable, misleading headlines, reminding us to
(32:49):
be kinder to men, to cater to boys, to basically
go all in on reinforcing patriarchy and hopes that it
sues humiliation and saves lives. That feminists are undervaluing men's
emotions and that's why romantic relationships aren't working. That personal
writing is getting ruined by women's self victimizing tendencies. Essentially,
(33:10):
that feminism is focusing too much on women and not
enough on men. At nauseum until I have an aneurysm,
I guess.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Yes, and it goes on. The algorithm isn't some kind
of abstract, preordained, divine creation. It's basically the preferences of
the guys who wrote it made it into a machine
churning away, writes economist umher Haik. The fame of man
influencers is created. It's not some kind of natural phenomenon
reflecting some kind of innate desire of the male psyche.
(33:38):
So all of this has been connected to the rise
of angry white men doing the first Trump presidency and
what is called aggrieved entitlement, and it is something that
comes up whenever Bridget comes on and talks about technology.
Is why that's so important? Who's making this technology? And
I do remember I remember walking home soon after the
(34:01):
twenty sixteen election and a group of boys was just
chanting grab her by the pody to every woman walked
to by. So there's definitely they were pretty young.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Right, and now the new chant is your body, my choice.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
Yep, we're gonna talk about uh oh no, okay. So
a lot of this content is interspersed throughout with jokes
or unrelated anecdotes. Andrew Tait was very good at that,
so the creator can pull off the classic It was
a joke like so you can you could start to
(34:38):
watch something and not know how toxic it is. And
one of the studies were referencing here. They did one
that was like, overtly this is and then they did
one that was very much framed was like this is
a support group. But once you kind of dug into it,
m mmmmmm. They frequently claim that they are evidence based.
(35:03):
They are not. They say they would never vote for
a politician who is a woman, and yeah too, reiterate,
these creators are making bank major corporations make money off
of credibly accused and convicted Manisphere folks while laying off
their own employees. Popular media does play a role as well.
That could be a whole separate episode, but there have
(35:24):
been a lot of articles written about characters like Patrick
Bateman from American Psycho, one of their heroes who also
embodies the hustler aspect that's common throughout all of these things,
Homelander from The Boys, Joaquin Phoenix's the Joker but not
the new one heaven forbid, or they're like guiding stars
(35:44):
for those in the Manisphere, even though they are often
completely misinterpreting. Satire ar critique of those characters, Yep and
DeSantis played on this very year showing some of these
characters in a political ad, which I have to say
was very homo erotic and I wish I could just
(36:06):
laugh at it instead of it having political ramifications. But
it was very homrotics.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
I mean that was half of like Trump people idealizing
and idolizing Trump and making him into these weird caricature
figures with like the muscular dude or like over the like.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
What are y'all doing this is just great.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
So much of this is obsession around like muscles and
I'm this Rhonda santis Ad had like sweaty men wrestling
with each other. I was shocked that no one was like, Hi,
(36:51):
this is odd. But that's why when you said, like
so many of these are supplements, it's because a lot
of it is I will I will sell you this
fitness XYZ, right, and then you can get the women,
because that's all it takes, I guess. And unfortunately we
(37:23):
should also probably come back to this. We're good. Are
a lot of homework on this one. There are a
lot of global examples. We're mostly talking about United States
in this, but these man influencers and others that we
have not mentioned truly have become a global influence. They
have a global reach. There have been recent articles from
South Korea, Australia, India, and Kenya about the damage of them,
(37:45):
just to name a few, and the effects have been
pretty horrific. Like I was reading accounts from women in
Kenya and they were saying it felt so sudden, like
this was not a problem before, but then he starts
using this terminology and then he becomes violent, and then
like and it's these manisphere spaces. Also, this has been
(38:10):
a long time on mar List, but women hating women
because this is not just men who are a part
of this. It is important to note that women can
be a part of these communities as well in some capacity,
because like we talked about with in cells, there's sort
of a like you can be but only down here.
Or they have their own anti feminists, anti women communities.
(38:35):
Chadwives is a good example, turfs good example, the whole
not like other women idea. So they are a part
of these online spaces and they are influencers in them.
They are consumers of them, and even if they aren't,
they can pick that stuff up from usually the men
(38:56):
in their lives. I did think about a knives out
glass onion, or there was that character who was dating
Dave Bautista and she he was a man influencer and
she was doing like playing it up and like, oh,
I also love women and boobs, huh. But then later
(39:17):
when she's being honest, she's like, oh, yeah, I'm just
using that to get a leg up. So I don't know.
There was a whole conversation to be had about women
in Trump's Cabinet. In all of this, there's a conversation
to be had about confirmation bias, which is when, in
this case, when women are afraid of proving stereotypes correct
(39:42):
so they don't like Usually it's like, oh, it's like
in a personal example, I dropped out of calculus because
I was afraid of proving the stereotype correct that women
are bad at math. So I think that's part of
this too, and it does influence women, influence women, even
if you disagree, because you can see my Monday mini
(40:02):
I did about not being pretty enough to be raped,
for one example. So this stuff is there. And then
when you're looking at white women in white supremacy going
for Trump twice, I think this is a combo of
white supremacy and hating other women. It's placing whiteness over gender.
But yes, there are many examples of women and white
(40:24):
women making this content like this same in this manisphere,
even though the people in manisphere are like, that's cute, right,
I'll accept you, But.
Speaker 3 (40:36):
Right, I mean Naas Smith is kind of a great
example of truly disassociating her identity for.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Gain.
Speaker 3 (40:51):
I guess I don't know as like a person of color,
a woman of color who had come into this. She
never says anything about being a trap wise if she
kind of just keeps it low with the I my
husband wants this, so I'm going to make this from scratch.
He wanted gums, so I'm going to make it from scratch.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
By this with this.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
Very calm and soothing voice. I think it did come
out that her husband is a Trump supporter, like he
finally admitted to it, or like he endorsed Trump. I
don't know, but everybody's kind of like, what are you doing?
And her feeding into this narrative because it's making her
money and she doesn't care because as long as she
is quote unquote safe. Now she's not saying all this,
(41:30):
but this is the attitude that is bringing it on,
Like she doesn't care because for her, this is making
her money, this is making him money. She's getting to
do all these things and this popularity alone is enough.
But the amount of money she's getting as a content
creator is over the top. And she's really just like
disassociating the vict that, ay, you're about to get all
(41:51):
of this taken away from you and you're only being
accepted because you're playing their part. That they are allowing
you to play the missive wife that does whatever he
wants at the drop of the die. Having sixteen children,
that's not how many children, but you know what I mean.
It's an interesting conversation, but just also with white women
in general, Like there's this interview. I don't know if
(42:13):
you saw this interview where this woman who is a
Trump supporter, I think she did some things with a campaign,
was like, I'm the VP of this organization that is
supporting Trump, but I would love to be at home
not doing this. And this is what's gonna be great
is when trumpet in the support I can be of
wife and not have to worry.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
About all these things that are.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Like you could have done that much, you can't do that.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
What is stopping you? That's the whole point of that choice.
We want you to do what it is that you
want to do.
Speaker 3 (42:45):
It. If it's just to be a stay at home mom,
just make sure you find that partner. Yeah, that's going
to support, which sounds like is the problem not other women?
Speaker 2 (42:55):
So I don't understand.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
Right right, Well, there was a and I keep coming
back to this even though it happened in twenty sixteen,
but there was a brief interview I saw of a
woman who was a Trump supporter, and the interviewer she's
just asking her why she wouldn't vote for Clinton, and
she was like, well, I think you know women, aren't
(43:17):
they They aren't leadership material and she listed a bunch
of reasons, and then he was like, but you own
your own automobile shop, right, and she's like, oh, yeah,
I'm really good and and he was like, so do
you think that you can't lead it? And she was like,
oh no, no, no, no, no, not me. I'm really good. Yeah.
So like that that dissonance, that disconnect right of like
(43:39):
I'm not like those of their girls. I am because
we still demonize women so much. It's the lesser that
it doesn't make sense. It's like, no, no for me,
is a great for you?
Speaker 2 (43:55):
I'm right.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Conversation of like they can't suck it up? Why do
they have to shake things up?
Speaker 1 (44:06):
Mm hmmm.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
We just wanted to say what it is.
Speaker 3 (44:08):
But at the same time, they're the one that's making progress,
Like they don't even realize they're part of the progress.
Speaker 2 (44:12):
And you're like, baby, there.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
Right there.
Speaker 3 (44:20):
And the same woman that I was talking about talks
about how she doesn't think women should be allowed to vote,
and I'm like, you're a part of you are the
leadership of an organization for POTT what.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
Yes, m hm, oh, why are you here?
Speaker 2 (44:34):
Why are you here?
Speaker 1 (44:36):
It's a great question, Samantha, It's a great question. But yes.
All of this does, unfortunately bring us to the recent
presidential election results, which was influenced by a lot of
this and has given even more credence to these toxic
ideas amongst these communities. Soon after Trump's win was announced
(44:57):
and cells started posting the slogan your body might t
It was popularized by white supremacist Nick Fuentes, who said
on election night, we control your bodies. Guess what, guys
went again? Okay, men went again. There will never ever
be a female president. It's over glass ceiling is a
glass made of bricks. Another variation is we own your
(45:18):
bodies now, and there have been reports of young boys
chanting this in classes. There were also violent memes and
calls for rape squads.
Speaker 3 (45:29):
Right and unfortunately. Andrew Tate has also been active on Twitter,
saying I saw a woman crossing the road today, but
I just kept my foot down right of way.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
You no longer have rights.
Speaker 1 (45:40):
That's like one of the least offensive things he said.
But yep, there's been similar racist phrases proliferating too, And
now there have been a lot of recent studies done
about how often these are either bots or young men
that like willed when discovered like children. But I think
(46:01):
we should keep it in mind that it doesn't negate
the fact that this is harmful silencing the sympt of
much larger issues. And there are plenty plenty of people
who think this and are making money off of it.
Trump appeared on these shows. He appealed to the manisphere
with his very do whatever you want, say whatever you want,
(46:22):
be rich, no consequences attitude. He thanked them by name
and a recent speech he's got his whole love of
UFC wrestling. There it fits wright in. People who consume
this content are far more likely to be pro authoritarian,
pro dictator, pro fascism because they believe in this strong
(46:42):
man narrative. They also argue that women and people of color,
depending on the group, shouldn't have the right to vote.
So yeah, that's this. Wasn't just that woman saying that.
And to be clear, all of this has contributed to
an uptick of sexual assault, violence and murder, including the
increase in men slaying their entire families, which I know
(47:02):
has been on our list for a while to talk about,
but it came up doing this research. So yeah, there's
a lot of work to be done here. It's not
going to be easy. Thank you to all the journalists
who are reporting on this, who have often been harassed
or docsed or silenced by publishers unwilling to publish their
(47:24):
work there. I mean, there are some basic like having
more women in marginalized folks in tech would be great,
Holding platforms accountable would be great. There are organizations and
resources online, especially for guardians who are seeing this in
their children or want to prevent it, so you can
(47:44):
you can look that up. Those do exist, and there
are people doing this often very difficult work that could
get you harassed online or worse.
Speaker 3 (47:55):
Right Also, now that I'm thinking about it, we need
to figure out where are we going to go, like
social media wise, because obviously Twitter is nah, Facebook is
a nana, Instagram is also nah.
Speaker 2 (48:10):
So where are we going? Andie and TikTok is gonna
be banned?
Speaker 1 (48:12):
Y'all?
Speaker 3 (48:13):
Where's everybody meeting at famam at speaking of tech.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
Trump will be interesting about TikTok because the billionaire convinced
him not to ban it. Oh, but then he got
real mad.
Speaker 3 (48:25):
But then he's going to get real control going to
how much he's going to blame things on China.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
We have to see about that.
Speaker 3 (48:32):
He might try to distract from what's been happening with
Russia recently. But who knows all that to say? Is
fam where we at Blue Sky? I heard that's the thing?
Are we going back to discord? We talked about that
for a minute.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
Well, let us know listens where we go, and funnily enough,
you could still contact us in those places, So please
let us know if you have any thoughts about this.
And yeah, if you just have any topics you want
us to cover, any resources you want us to shout out,
you can emails and Steffan your mom stuff at I Heeart Media.
You can find us on Twitter at Mom's a podcast,
(49:10):
or on Instagram and TikTok and stuff. Never told you.
We're also on YouTube. We have a tea Public story
and we have a book you can get wherever you
get your book. Thanks as always to our super producer
Christina Executive producer Maya and her contributor Joey. Thank you
and thanks to you for listening. Stuff Never Told You
is production by Heart Radio. For more podcasts or my
heart Radio, you can check out the heart Radio app,
Apple podcast or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,
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Samantha McVey
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