April 19, 2010 • 22 mins
What do people think when they see a tattoo on a woman? What do tattoos have to do with feminism? The answers may surprise you. Tune in as Molly and Cristen explore the relationship between tattoos and feminism in this podcast.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.
It's ready. Are you welcome to stuff mom never told you?
From House to works dot Com. Hey, and welcome the podcast.
This is Molly and I'm Kristen. Kristen. Over the course
(00:20):
of doing this podcast, we've learned so much about you.
You really do share your life with with our listeners
too much. We know you were home schooled. We know
that your nickname is the thrifty nickel to some. We
know you want to abolish marriage. Not true, It's not true.
You said it. It's on the public record now joking.
Here's a new thing we're gonna reveal today, a new
(00:42):
insight into Kristen goodness. Kristen, tell us what is on
your left wrist? Well, Molly, um, I'm looking at it
right now, and on my left wrist, the inside of it,
there is a small tattoo of an anchor. I have
an anchor. And I was telling Christ before we came
(01:02):
in here that the first time I noticed it, I
was sort of like, has she always had that or
did she just get it? Is it permanent? Is it
just like a picture of an anchor? She drew on herself.
There's a lot of there's a lot of misconceptions about
this tattoo, Christ and I just want you to clear
them all up right now. Well, I think what you're
referring to, Molly is a tendency some men in this
(01:24):
town have of thinking it's cute to ask me if
I have a sailor fetish because you have the anchor,
because I have an anchor, to which I reply no
and then promptly turned around and walk away. So you know,
if someone asked you if you have a sailor fetish,
that that's as far as the conversation'll be going. Yeah,
cut him off out, there's the listeners. Yeah, if you
(01:46):
ever meet me, don't ask me about my tattoo. But yeah,
I know people people notice that. They're usually wondering why
I haven't an anchor on my wrist um. So yeah,
it's definitely been the topic of conversation sometimes. I mean,
it's pretty small, Like you said, you didn't notice it
first off. I've had friends who haven't noticed it for
a while, and I kind of liked it that way.
Even though it's in invisible space, like it's easy to
(02:09):
cover up and it's not just out there. So did
you get a small tattoo because you know, you didn't
want it to be just out there and have people
looking at it. I mean, you probably got people looking
at and asking were questions about it, but it wasn't
a conscious choice to keep it small versus keeping it
you know, why don't you get like a sleeve of anchors,
(02:29):
I sleep, I mean an entire arm tattooed of anchers. Well, uh,
because then I don't think I could explain away a
lack of a sailor fetish um. But now I think
my rationale behind getting it right here was I figured
I wanted to be able to see it every day
if I wanted to, and not have to, you know,
crane my neck to see this tattoo. But yes, I
(02:53):
wanted to keep it small enough so that it wasn't
always in my line of sight. Gotcha, Well, the reason
I'm asking is, like that Christmas Day, we're going to
talk about what people think when they see a tattoo
on a woman. Yes, and even more fascinatingly, what tattoos
have to do with feminism, Because, as it turns out,
quite a bit. And so now you know, as we
(03:13):
get into this conversation. I want you to explore what
feminist you know, ideas you might have been playing with
if you were transgressing gender boundaries by getting a tattoo,
all that good feminist lingo. How much of it did
you play into your decision to get a tattoo. These
are all things we're gonna explore either during the podcast
or later over drinks. All right, well, Molly, I think
that my anchor tattoo actually provides the perfect segue into
(03:37):
our historical journey UH with the art of tattoos, because
it all starts on the high seas, does it not?
It really does. It's as if you knew one day
you'd be podcasting about tattoos and you need a segway. Yes,
because a lot of people trace the rise of tattoos
in this country to the seventeen seventies when Captain James
Cook went to Polynesia and brought back the polony as
(04:00):
an art of tattooing, UH to the West, and from
that point on, tattooing really became associated with sailors who
were all men, just you know, because the men weren't sailors.
Women weren't the ones getting tattooed to show this brotherhood
with other sailors. Right. So, back then and even today,
I would say to some except we'll get to that later,
(04:21):
tattoos were very very masculine. Say, they were very kind
of blue collar, hard working, you know, sign of a
sign of a tough guy. You could withstand that pain. Yes,
you know you were, you were really tough. And it
wasn't until the eighteen eighties with Circus freak shows that
we really start to have having more women getting inked
(04:42):
as well. Yeah, that's sort of where they first show
up in the tattoo historical document. And right away, if
you're associating a tattooed woman with a freak show, you
can see how you know that is not going to
change anyone's perception of tattoos being a manly thing, because no,
you know, proper lady of that time would have wanted
to be associated with a freak show act. And what
was interesting to me, according to a paper by Christine
(05:04):
Bromberger called Revolting Bodies, Monster Beauty of Tattooed Women, she
kind of goes into this history of freak shows and
how you know, there was this one woman named Nora Hildebrand,
who you know, just got tattooed because she wanted to
be in the freak show. She liked tattoos, and they
made her construct this backstory of how you know, she
and her father have been kidnapped by sitting bowl and
every day in Indian would tire to a tree and
(05:26):
you know, make her father give her another tattoo until
her whole body was tattooed, and that's how she ended
up in this freak show. So right away, women have
become linked with tattooing in ways that take away all
their power because she was forced to get the tattoos,
makes them into freaks because you know, she's in a
traveling circus. It's placing a lot of stigma on these
(05:47):
women with tattoos, and that stigma grows into the twentieth
century where it becomes a lot more associated with prostitution. Um.
And there was also a famous case in the nineteen
twenty when it was a rape trial when uh, this
girl had a tattoo on her, a tattoo of a butterfly,
(06:08):
I believe, on her ankle, and that was the piece
of evidence if you will, that lost her. The case
lost her, this this rape case because they drew the
conclusion that since she had a butterfly tattoo, she was
therefore sexually promiscuous and was asking for this rape. Essentially,
(06:29):
she misled the men because she was like, Oh, I'm
into sex because I have a tattoo. So it's just
this really these damaging links that only you know, bad girls,
sexually deprayed women and freaks get tattoos. That uh, that
characterizes the early twenty century. And it's interesting with this
(06:50):
early history, this issue that that you mentioned of power
comes up again and again. Even though these women were
choosing to get tattoos, it was still culturally viewed as
a sign of uh than being dominated and then never
then not having power and ownership over their bodies. He
seems being perpetrated on them. So enter the feminists of
(07:13):
the nineties seventies, where the body does become a political
thing that feminists are reclaiming control of. And it's easy
jump to make that because they wanted to reclaim the
power over their body. They start making this big deal
out of choosing to get tattooed, and that's where we
see the rise of women really entering the tattooed world
and trying to reclaim that negative perception that was associated
(07:37):
with art. Yeah, and I think Janice Joplin was someone
who kind of helped push that into the mainstream. She
had um a tattoo of what arose, I believe, and
it was done by a guy named Lyle Tuttle, who
was California based tattoo artist who really brought tattooing in
general back into vogue in the seventies. Right now, the seventies,
(07:59):
you know, it was a crazy time. I wasn't there,
but that's what the pictures shows. Pretty wild. So the
people who were getting tattooed I think still existed within
that wild sphere, and people who were perhaps you know,
who are conservative, more suburban s would have judged them
as like the freaks of the world. So while more
women were getting tattoos, I don't think that the stigma
(08:21):
of a tattoo symbolizing and other would have completely disappeared.
Even the more when we're getting tattooed. And really since
the nineteen seventies, tattooing has just come more and more
into the mainstream. And according to report from the Pew
Research Center, of women forty have at least one tattoo.
So we've gone from it being this kind of crazy
(08:43):
free side show thing for women to have a tattoo
to you know, every other lady walking down the street
may or may not have one. But I think that
women are still subject to judgment for tattoos in ways
that men are not. So let's talk a little bit
about that sort of double standard, because while they're getting
more mainstream, I would say they're not totally mainstream. Yeah,
(09:05):
I mean there are offices where you can't walk into
if you're if you've got a tattoo showing. Yeah, And
I mean that then that's the same thing for guys.
I mean there's still the issue of you know, if
a guy gets sleeves done where his entire arms are
covered in tattoos, it might be a lot harder for
him to get a day job. You know, he's gonna
have to cover them up somehow. But with women, you
(09:26):
know that, I think that the standard is raised even higher,
not just because it's harder for us to wear. We
don't generally wear full body suits, you know we should.
We just just show more skin and yourself, Cristo. Full
body suits sods like has matt suits or something, um,
but you know, we have more skin showing. And also
I do think that there's still more of I don't know,
(09:49):
negative implication if you have a tattoo. I definitely feel
from my personal experience, having this very small, insignificant tattoo,
I would think compared to you know, other others out air, UM,
I do get different a different kind of attention sometimes
for it than I would like. It's like, once guys
in particular will notice it, or even girls to notice
(10:11):
that I have this tattoo of this anchor, I don't know,
it sort of changes. I can tell that it changes
their perception of who I am and this kind of
message that I'm trying to put out about myself, which
I really didn't intend to do at all. And I
think that what's interesting is to me, your tattoo is
in a very sort of you know, neutral place. But
there are definitely places that you could have been tattooed
(10:32):
on your body that would not have been neutral, if,
for example, you had gotten the ever so popularly named
tramp stamp. Yes, the tattoo on the lower back right um,
which I think it probably acquired the quote unquote tramp
stamp title with the popularity of low rise jeans when
(10:52):
that area. You know, you sit down and all of
a sudden you're lower back is exposed, and maybe the
top of your underwear, and then sitting on top of that,
you have who knows what a dolphin, a yin yang symbol,
a butterfly, a butterfly. But somehow along the way men
looked at that, or someone looked at it and told men,
(11:13):
if a girl has a tattoo there, she's a tramp.
So basically, there are places where a woman can get
still get tattooed today that somehow indicates something about her sexuality,
which I would argue takes away just as much power
from those women as it did. You know, to say
that a woman deserved be raped because she had a tattoo, well,
you and I were talking before the podcast about trying
(11:35):
to figure out which part of our bodies could we
get a tattoo where it would have no sexual implication,
And there's really no neutral space on a woman's body.
I mean, even I don't feel like this small part
of my wrist is necessarily provocative, you know, but someone
could probably twisted as such. But you know, if I
made it into a fetter, she either are gonna get
(11:55):
a tattoo that indicates something about your sexuality. If you
get like a butterfly, you're somehow embodying like ultra feminine qualities. Um.
But then, like you said, if if it's if it
is a neutral tattoo in and of itself, a snail
being one. One idea we came up with, where can
you put it on your body? That is that is neutral? Yeah,
you can't put it on your hips. You can't put
(12:17):
it on your neck or anywhere around your chest. Um.
I mean I guess you could put it on your stomach,
but that would just look funny. Um, your ankle. I
would argue that your ankle could be a sexy place
for a tattoo. Well, it's interesting you argue that, because
we found a Men's Fitness article that argued that if
you see a girl with an ankle tattoo, she's worth
(12:39):
the trouble of seducing because she is obviously tough enough
to get an ankle tattoo since there's very little fat there. Yeah,
equally feminine, particularly f it's something like a butterfly or
a flower. Yeah, I mean not that. Molly and I
looked to Men's Fitness as something that you should really
put a lot of stock in but it was funny. Yeah.
This this guide to Woman's Tattoos, Uh, of course mentions
(13:00):
the lower back tramp stamp that we talked about a
minute ago. Um, and it says, uh doesn't mean that
she's a isn't a keeper because of the you know, connotations,
sexual connotations. She's just a follower. So it really looks
down on on the lower back tattoos. And then if
she's got an entire sleeve, she's gonna be wild in
(13:22):
the sack because she's and she's totally subverting female norms.
To use some feminist lingo, because I will say that,
you know, sometimes when I see a person who does
have the sleeves and they're female, I do think of
that differently than I think of like a guy with sleeves.
And I don't want to be that way because I
don't want to judge someone just based on sleeves. But
(13:43):
there are arguments be made, you know, from both sides
that they want me to think differently about them because
they're reclaiming power, they're redirecting my gaze versus people who say,
you know, she's just trying to subvert feminine norms and
this kind of reminds me of this Cat Vondi, who
is the star of the reality show l a Ink.
(14:06):
She's covered in tattoos, super foxy. Can I call a
woman foxy? Stating Okay, um, she you know, she's really hot,
she's covered in tattoos, And there was I can't remember
which magazine was for, but they did, um, they did
a photo shoot with her where they basically removed all
of her tattoos with makeup to kind of show this
(14:29):
like her ultra feminine side, because she looks really tough.
You know, she's covered in all of all of these
tattoos and has sleeves and they're everywhere. Um, yeah, she's
really you know, sexy at the same time, but they
wanted to, you know, show her softer side, and by
doing that, they removed her tattoos and you know they
would never do that to a guy. You know, they
(14:50):
completely removed her power again. Yeah, they what was the
phrase I liked? They deprived her agency? Yeah, deprivation of agency.
So I definitely think that, you know, there there is
a lot more to a woman getting a tattoo. Likes
as little statement as I was trying to make to
the world. You know that I I have this tattoo
for personal reasons. I don't. I didn't didn't really care
(15:11):
what the world thought about it. And yet you can't
get away from it. You can't get away from society's gays.
And not to try to overblow, you know, silly of
an issue as a tattoo. I think it definitely is real.
It is real. And you know, there was one study
in Canada that we found from two thousand four that
tried to sort of qualify I guess what men and
(15:32):
women thought when they saw a female with a tattoo.
And basically they got these uh college students to come in.
They divided them up into groups of people who had tattoos,
people who were seriously considering one, and people who didn't
have tattoos, and then they described these hypothetical people for them. Um,
you know a man who had a tattoo that was
smaller than a looney. Remember this as a Canadian study,
(15:54):
so their dollar coin is called a looney. This is
a shout out for all our Canadian fans. Um, I'm manhood.
A tattooed smaller than a looney, that was you know,
visible or not visible. It depended um than one that
was larger than that, and then the same for a woman.
And by and large, all the men and women, regardless
of their tattoo status, had less favorable opinions of the
(16:14):
women with tattoos. Now, they also did kind of a
follow up reading and they asked the people, you know,
where do you stand on sort of a feminist scale?
How much do you believe in equal rights for women?
And that was a pretty good predictor of how the
people would feel about a tattoo on a woman. If they,
you know, believed in traditional gender roles and they had
less of an inkling to agree with equal rights for women,
(16:36):
they would judge the women with a tattoo much more
harshly than those who had um more egalitarian views on women. Right,
And I thought the most interesting finding from this study
was that men with or without tattoos still had a
lower perception of women who had large tattoos. The small
ones not as big of a deal, but once it
(17:00):
got larger and more visible, Uh, their perceptions started to change.
It did change, but they would even though they might
have found the woman more unfavorable compared to the woman
without a tattoo, they did still remark that the tattooed
woman was powerful because they were asked to rate her,
you know, her sense of power as well. So I
think that we still see females getting tattoos as powerful,
(17:22):
we just don't necessarily view them the same way, which
is exactly it seems the experience that you've had. Well,
because and this is something that the researcher brings up
and that I do I will buy this is she
says that women with tattoos is an example of gender
roal violation. And I think it is because we we
do have this notion of power tied up with with
(17:43):
tattoos and with their visibility and what they're portraying, um
and all of that. And while again like I don't,
I think it's stilly to kind of over over analyze
the whole situation. I think that when you really get
down to brass texts, tattoos are kind of a really
entry just to engage for really where we are, like
(18:03):
where how the society does view men and women differently? Yeah,
well that's very well said Kristen. On that note, I
think we should open it up to our listeners and
see what you guys think. What do you think about
women with tattoos? Ya nay? What tattoos do you have
of your own? What prejudices do you find yourself with
against woman with tattoos? Has your perception of me lowered
knowing that I have a tattoo? Now, Kristen, no one's
(18:24):
perception of view as lord? I'm sure so. On that note,
mom stuff at how stuff first dot com. That's our
email address. Let us know your thoughts and let's read
some people who have already emailed us at that address.
I have an email from Mary Ellen, who wrote about
our burke A podcast, and she writes, I am an
American woman living in France. The French view freedom of
(18:46):
religion somewhat differently from the way Americans see it, and
this largely Catholic country, religion is considered a private matter.
Politicians do not say God bless France or otherwise referred
to religion or prayer and their speeches. Schools do observe
religious holidays, but other than that, religion in schools are separate.
Outward sign of religion is allowed in public schools. This
includes the veil, but also the cross. The French highly
(19:07):
value assimilation people who chose to become citizens are expected
to assimilate and to keep their religion private. The women
who has refused French citizenship refused even to apure in
court and less than her full burka. She and her
husband have adopted the radical Islam views since their immigration
to France. So a view into French culture from Mary Ellen.
All right, well, I've got one here from Alexandra about
(19:30):
our episode on poop. We've got a lot of great
email about our poop episode. Guys, keeping coming because it
just makes me laugh a lot. Uh, she says, thank
you so much for breaking the silence of the subject
of women and poop. I used to be one of
many women out there who felt embarrassed about pooping in
public bathrooms. However, I was quickly cured of any further
(19:50):
feelings of embarrassment. This summer, I took a job leading
canoe trips in northern Ontario. As you can imagine, when
embarking on a week on trip into an area without
even public bathrooms, the subject of just how you're supposed
to go poop in the woods becomes not only important,
but also incredibly necessary. The conversation is typically an awkward one,
compounded by the fact that you only met your trip
(20:11):
participants earlier that day. Every trip leader has their own
poop talk style, and I used I like to use
a lot of humor. I'll start by introducing my shovel
named Doug, and I go want to say that during
this trip, you'll find that you want to go take
Dug out on a date, and then explain how a
date with Doug will go, including the need for privacy
and a date being far away from camp. I also
(20:32):
emphasize that Doug does not like to take long walks
in the beach, as it's against the Leave No Trace
policy to have poop too close to water sources. I've
never thought about all of this. I also stressed that
it's not polite to get poop on your date and
that Doug is only used for digging the hole. On
almost every trip I've led, Doug becomes an important member
of the trip and is often featured at the end
(20:53):
of every trip photo. Participants will often joke about Doug
cheating on them when someone else heads out into the
woods for a quote day with Doug, and we'll even
brag that they've been on more dates with Dougs than
other friends. He's people in Ontario. It was so saney.
This may seem silly, but talking about poop on a
trip is essential. Try not going poop for a week
(21:13):
because you're uncomfortable with a lack of facilities, and it
can be very dangerous to your health, causing blockages and
a lot of pain. I used to find talking about
poop to be a little weird, but now I take
a certain pride in being able to openly discuss what
was going on in mine and other people's bowels. Alexandra,
thank you so much. She also attached a picture of Doug.
(21:35):
It was It was great, Thank you, alex Yeah, and
it was clean, by the way, of course, very clean.
Don't get poop on duck, don't get poop on dugs.
So keep sending up your poop thoughts, guys, our way,
mom's other thoughts or other thoughts yes at how mom
Stuff at how stuff works dot com and during the
week see what Molly and I are working on on
(21:55):
our blog how to Stuff, and you can read articles
that Mollie and I have written and other podcast personalities
have written as well on our website how stuff works
dot com for more on this and thousands of other topics.
Does it how stuff works dot Com. Want more how
(22:17):
stuff works, check out our blogs on the house. Stuff
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reinvented two thousand twelve camera. It's ready, are you
Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.
It's ready. Are you welcome to stuff mom never told you?
From House to works dot Com. Hey, and welcome the podcast.
This is Molly and I'm Kristen. Kristen. Over the course
(00:20):
of doing this podcast, we've learned so much about you.
You really do share your life with with our listeners
too much. We know you were home schooled. We know
that your nickname is the thrifty nickel to some. We
know you want to abolish marriage. Not true, It's not true.
You said it. It's on the public record now joking.
Here's a new thing we're gonna reveal today, a new
(00:42):
insight into Kristen goodness. Kristen, tell us what is on
your left wrist? Well, Molly, um, I'm looking at it
right now, and on my left wrist, the inside of it,
there is a small tattoo of an anchor. I have
an anchor. And I was telling Christ before we came
(01:02):
in here that the first time I noticed it, I
was sort of like, has she always had that or
did she just get it? Is it permanent? Is it
just like a picture of an anchor? She drew on herself.
There's a lot of there's a lot of misconceptions about
this tattoo, Christ and I just want you to clear
them all up right now. Well, I think what you're
referring to, Molly is a tendency some men in this
(01:24):
town have of thinking it's cute to ask me if
I have a sailor fetish because you have the anchor,
because I have an anchor, to which I reply no
and then promptly turned around and walk away. So you know,
if someone asked you if you have a sailor fetish,
that that's as far as the conversation'll be going. Yeah,
cut him off out, there's the listeners. Yeah, if you
(01:46):
ever meet me, don't ask me about my tattoo. But yeah,
I know people people notice that. They're usually wondering why
I haven't an anchor on my wrist um. So yeah,
it's definitely been the topic of conversation sometimes. I mean,
it's pretty small, Like you said, you didn't notice it
first off. I've had friends who haven't noticed it for
a while, and I kind of liked it that way.
Even though it's in invisible space, like it's easy to
(02:09):
cover up and it's not just out there. So did
you get a small tattoo because you know, you didn't
want it to be just out there and have people
looking at it. I mean, you probably got people looking
at and asking were questions about it, but it wasn't
a conscious choice to keep it small versus keeping it
you know, why don't you get like a sleeve of anchors,
(02:29):
I sleep, I mean an entire arm tattooed of anchers. Well, uh,
because then I don't think I could explain away a
lack of a sailor fetish um. But now I think
my rationale behind getting it right here was I figured
I wanted to be able to see it every day
if I wanted to, and not have to, you know,
crane my neck to see this tattoo. But yes, I
(02:53):
wanted to keep it small enough so that it wasn't
always in my line of sight. Gotcha, Well, the reason
I'm asking is, like that Christmas Day, we're going to
talk about what people think when they see a tattoo
on a woman. Yes, and even more fascinatingly, what tattoos
have to do with feminism, Because, as it turns out,
quite a bit. And so now you know, as we
(03:13):
get into this conversation. I want you to explore what
feminist you know, ideas you might have been playing with
if you were transgressing gender boundaries by getting a tattoo,
all that good feminist lingo. How much of it did
you play into your decision to get a tattoo. These
are all things we're gonna explore either during the podcast
or later over drinks. All right, well, Molly, I think
that my anchor tattoo actually provides the perfect segue into
(03:37):
our historical journey UH with the art of tattoos, because
it all starts on the high seas, does it not?
It really does. It's as if you knew one day
you'd be podcasting about tattoos and you need a segway. Yes,
because a lot of people trace the rise of tattoos
in this country to the seventeen seventies when Captain James
Cook went to Polynesia and brought back the polony as
(04:00):
an art of tattooing, UH to the West, and from
that point on, tattooing really became associated with sailors who
were all men, just you know, because the men weren't sailors.
Women weren't the ones getting tattooed to show this brotherhood
with other sailors. Right. So, back then and even today,
I would say to some except we'll get to that later,
(04:21):
tattoos were very very masculine. Say, they were very kind
of blue collar, hard working, you know, sign of a
sign of a tough guy. You could withstand that pain. Yes,
you know you were, you were really tough. And it
wasn't until the eighteen eighties with Circus freak shows that
we really start to have having more women getting inked
(04:42):
as well. Yeah, that's sort of where they first show
up in the tattoo historical document. And right away, if
you're associating a tattooed woman with a freak show, you
can see how you know that is not going to
change anyone's perception of tattoos being a manly thing, because no,
you know, proper lady of that time would have wanted
to be associated with a freak show act. And what
was interesting to me, according to a paper by Christine
(05:04):
Bromberger called Revolting Bodies, Monster Beauty of Tattooed Women, she
kind of goes into this history of freak shows and
how you know, there was this one woman named Nora Hildebrand,
who you know, just got tattooed because she wanted to
be in the freak show. She liked tattoos, and they
made her construct this backstory of how you know, she
and her father have been kidnapped by sitting bowl and
every day in Indian would tire to a tree and
(05:26):
you know, make her father give her another tattoo until
her whole body was tattooed, and that's how she ended
up in this freak show. So right away, women have
become linked with tattooing in ways that take away all
their power because she was forced to get the tattoos,
makes them into freaks because you know, she's in a
traveling circus. It's placing a lot of stigma on these
(05:47):
women with tattoos, and that stigma grows into the twentieth
century where it becomes a lot more associated with prostitution. Um.
And there was also a famous case in the nineteen
twenty when it was a rape trial when uh, this
girl had a tattoo on her, a tattoo of a butterfly,
(06:08):
I believe, on her ankle, and that was the piece
of evidence if you will, that lost her. The case
lost her, this this rape case because they drew the
conclusion that since she had a butterfly tattoo, she was
therefore sexually promiscuous and was asking for this rape. Essentially,
(06:29):
she misled the men because she was like, Oh, I'm
into sex because I have a tattoo. So it's just
this really these damaging links that only you know, bad girls,
sexually deprayed women and freaks get tattoos. That uh, that
characterizes the early twenty century. And it's interesting with this
(06:50):
early history, this issue that that you mentioned of power
comes up again and again. Even though these women were
choosing to get tattoos, it was still culturally viewed as
a sign of uh than being dominated and then never
then not having power and ownership over their bodies. He
seems being perpetrated on them. So enter the feminists of
(07:13):
the nineties seventies, where the body does become a political
thing that feminists are reclaiming control of. And it's easy
jump to make that because they wanted to reclaim the
power over their body. They start making this big deal
out of choosing to get tattooed, and that's where we
see the rise of women really entering the tattooed world
and trying to reclaim that negative perception that was associated
(07:37):
with art. Yeah, and I think Janice Joplin was someone
who kind of helped push that into the mainstream. She
had um a tattoo of what arose, I believe, and
it was done by a guy named Lyle Tuttle, who
was California based tattoo artist who really brought tattooing in
general back into vogue in the seventies. Right now, the seventies,
(07:59):
you know, it was a crazy time. I wasn't there,
but that's what the pictures shows. Pretty wild. So the
people who were getting tattooed I think still existed within
that wild sphere, and people who were perhaps you know,
who are conservative, more suburban s would have judged them
as like the freaks of the world. So while more
women were getting tattoos, I don't think that the stigma
(08:21):
of a tattoo symbolizing and other would have completely disappeared.
Even the more when we're getting tattooed. And really since
the nineteen seventies, tattooing has just come more and more
into the mainstream. And according to report from the Pew
Research Center, of women forty have at least one tattoo.
So we've gone from it being this kind of crazy
(08:43):
free side show thing for women to have a tattoo
to you know, every other lady walking down the street
may or may not have one. But I think that
women are still subject to judgment for tattoos in ways
that men are not. So let's talk a little bit
about that sort of double standard, because while they're getting
more mainstream, I would say they're not totally mainstream. Yeah,
(09:05):
I mean there are offices where you can't walk into
if you're if you've got a tattoo showing. Yeah, And
I mean that then that's the same thing for guys.
I mean there's still the issue of you know, if
a guy gets sleeves done where his entire arms are
covered in tattoos, it might be a lot harder for
him to get a day job. You know, he's gonna
have to cover them up somehow. But with women, you
(09:26):
know that, I think that the standard is raised even higher,
not just because it's harder for us to wear. We
don't generally wear full body suits, you know we should.
We just just show more skin and yourself, Cristo. Full
body suits sods like has matt suits or something, um,
but you know, we have more skin showing. And also
I do think that there's still more of I don't know,
(09:49):
negative implication if you have a tattoo. I definitely feel
from my personal experience, having this very small, insignificant tattoo,
I would think compared to you know, other others out air, UM,
I do get different a different kind of attention sometimes
for it than I would like. It's like, once guys
in particular will notice it, or even girls to notice
(10:11):
that I have this tattoo of this anchor, I don't know,
it sort of changes. I can tell that it changes
their perception of who I am and this kind of
message that I'm trying to put out about myself, which
I really didn't intend to do at all. And I
think that what's interesting is to me, your tattoo is
in a very sort of you know, neutral place. But
there are definitely places that you could have been tattooed
(10:32):
on your body that would not have been neutral, if,
for example, you had gotten the ever so popularly named
tramp stamp. Yes, the tattoo on the lower back right um,
which I think it probably acquired the quote unquote tramp
stamp title with the popularity of low rise jeans when
(10:52):
that area. You know, you sit down and all of
a sudden you're lower back is exposed, and maybe the
top of your underwear, and then sitting on top of that,
you have who knows what a dolphin, a yin yang symbol,
a butterfly, a butterfly. But somehow along the way men
looked at that, or someone looked at it and told men,
(11:13):
if a girl has a tattoo there, she's a tramp.
So basically, there are places where a woman can get
still get tattooed today that somehow indicates something about her sexuality,
which I would argue takes away just as much power
from those women as it did. You know, to say
that a woman deserved be raped because she had a tattoo, well,
you and I were talking before the podcast about trying
(11:35):
to figure out which part of our bodies could we
get a tattoo where it would have no sexual implication,
And there's really no neutral space on a woman's body.
I mean, even I don't feel like this small part
of my wrist is necessarily provocative, you know, but someone
could probably twisted as such. But you know, if I
made it into a fetter, she either are gonna get
(11:55):
a tattoo that indicates something about your sexuality. If you
get like a butterfly, you're somehow embodying like ultra feminine qualities. Um.
But then, like you said, if if it's if it
is a neutral tattoo in and of itself, a snail
being one. One idea we came up with, where can
you put it on your body? That is that is neutral? Yeah,
you can't put it on your hips. You can't put
(12:17):
it on your neck or anywhere around your chest. Um.
I mean I guess you could put it on your stomach,
but that would just look funny. Um, your ankle. I
would argue that your ankle could be a sexy place
for a tattoo. Well, it's interesting you argue that, because
we found a Men's Fitness article that argued that if
you see a girl with an ankle tattoo, she's worth
(12:39):
the trouble of seducing because she is obviously tough enough
to get an ankle tattoo since there's very little fat there. Yeah,
equally feminine, particularly f it's something like a butterfly or
a flower. Yeah, I mean not that. Molly and I
looked to Men's Fitness as something that you should really
put a lot of stock in but it was funny. Yeah.
This this guide to Woman's Tattoos, Uh, of course mentions
(13:00):
the lower back tramp stamp that we talked about a
minute ago. Um, and it says, uh doesn't mean that
she's a isn't a keeper because of the you know, connotations,
sexual connotations. She's just a follower. So it really looks
down on on the lower back tattoos. And then if
she's got an entire sleeve, she's gonna be wild in
(13:22):
the sack because she's and she's totally subverting female norms.
To use some feminist lingo, because I will say that,
you know, sometimes when I see a person who does
have the sleeves and they're female, I do think of
that differently than I think of like a guy with sleeves.
And I don't want to be that way because I
don't want to judge someone just based on sleeves. But
(13:43):
there are arguments be made, you know, from both sides
that they want me to think differently about them because
they're reclaiming power, they're redirecting my gaze versus people who say,
you know, she's just trying to subvert feminine norms and
this kind of reminds me of this Cat Vondi, who
is the star of the reality show l a Ink.
(14:06):
She's covered in tattoos, super foxy. Can I call a
woman foxy? Stating Okay, um, she you know, she's really hot,
she's covered in tattoos, And there was I can't remember
which magazine was for, but they did, um, they did
a photo shoot with her where they basically removed all
of her tattoos with makeup to kind of show this
(14:29):
like her ultra feminine side, because she looks really tough.
You know, she's covered in all of all of these
tattoos and has sleeves and they're everywhere. Um, yeah, she's
really you know, sexy at the same time, but they
wanted to, you know, show her softer side, and by
doing that, they removed her tattoos and you know they
would never do that to a guy. You know, they
(14:50):
completely removed her power again. Yeah, they what was the
phrase I liked? They deprived her agency? Yeah, deprivation of agency.
So I definitely think that, you know, there there is
a lot more to a woman getting a tattoo. Likes
as little statement as I was trying to make to
the world. You know that I I have this tattoo
for personal reasons. I don't. I didn't didn't really care
(15:11):
what the world thought about it. And yet you can't
get away from it. You can't get away from society's gays.
And not to try to overblow, you know, silly of
an issue as a tattoo. I think it definitely is real.
It is real. And you know, there was one study
in Canada that we found from two thousand four that
tried to sort of qualify I guess what men and
(15:32):
women thought when they saw a female with a tattoo.
And basically they got these uh college students to come in.
They divided them up into groups of people who had tattoos,
people who were seriously considering one, and people who didn't
have tattoos, and then they described these hypothetical people for them. Um,
you know a man who had a tattoo that was
smaller than a looney. Remember this as a Canadian study,
(15:54):
so their dollar coin is called a looney. This is
a shout out for all our Canadian fans. Um, I'm manhood.
A tattooed smaller than a looney, that was you know,
visible or not visible. It depended um than one that
was larger than that, and then the same for a woman.
And by and large, all the men and women, regardless
of their tattoo status, had less favorable opinions of the
(16:14):
women with tattoos. Now, they also did kind of a
follow up reading and they asked the people, you know,
where do you stand on sort of a feminist scale?
How much do you believe in equal rights for women?
And that was a pretty good predictor of how the
people would feel about a tattoo on a woman. If they,
you know, believed in traditional gender roles and they had
less of an inkling to agree with equal rights for women,
(16:36):
they would judge the women with a tattoo much more
harshly than those who had um more egalitarian views on women. Right,
And I thought the most interesting finding from this study
was that men with or without tattoos still had a
lower perception of women who had large tattoos. The small
ones not as big of a deal, but once it
(17:00):
got larger and more visible, Uh, their perceptions started to change.
It did change, but they would even though they might
have found the woman more unfavorable compared to the woman
without a tattoo, they did still remark that the tattooed
woman was powerful because they were asked to rate her,
you know, her sense of power as well. So I
think that we still see females getting tattoos as powerful,
(17:22):
we just don't necessarily view them the same way, which
is exactly it seems the experience that you've had. Well,
because and this is something that the researcher brings up
and that I do I will buy this is she
says that women with tattoos is an example of gender
roal violation. And I think it is because we we
do have this notion of power tied up with with
(17:43):
tattoos and with their visibility and what they're portraying, um
and all of that. And while again like I don't,
I think it's stilly to kind of over over analyze
the whole situation. I think that when you really get
down to brass texts, tattoos are kind of a really
entry just to engage for really where we are, like
(18:03):
where how the society does view men and women differently? Yeah,
well that's very well said Kristen. On that note, I
think we should open it up to our listeners and
see what you guys think. What do you think about
women with tattoos? Ya nay? What tattoos do you have
of your own? What prejudices do you find yourself with
against woman with tattoos? Has your perception of me lowered
knowing that I have a tattoo? Now, Kristen, no one's
(18:24):
perception of view as lord? I'm sure so. On that note,
mom stuff at how stuff first dot com. That's our
email address. Let us know your thoughts and let's read
some people who have already emailed us at that address.
I have an email from Mary Ellen, who wrote about
our burke A podcast, and she writes, I am an
American woman living in France. The French view freedom of
(18:46):
religion somewhat differently from the way Americans see it, and
this largely Catholic country, religion is considered a private matter.
Politicians do not say God bless France or otherwise referred
to religion or prayer and their speeches. Schools do observe
religious holidays, but other than that, religion in schools are separate.
Outward sign of religion is allowed in public schools. This
includes the veil, but also the cross. The French highly
(19:07):
value assimilation people who chose to become citizens are expected
to assimilate and to keep their religion private. The women
who has refused French citizenship refused even to apure in
court and less than her full burka. She and her
husband have adopted the radical Islam views since their immigration
to France. So a view into French culture from Mary Ellen.
All right, well, I've got one here from Alexandra about
(19:30):
our episode on poop. We've got a lot of great
email about our poop episode. Guys, keeping coming because it
just makes me laugh a lot. Uh, she says, thank
you so much for breaking the silence of the subject
of women and poop. I used to be one of
many women out there who felt embarrassed about pooping in
public bathrooms. However, I was quickly cured of any further
(19:50):
feelings of embarrassment. This summer, I took a job leading
canoe trips in northern Ontario. As you can imagine, when
embarking on a week on trip into an area without
even public bathrooms, the subject of just how you're supposed
to go poop in the woods becomes not only important,
but also incredibly necessary. The conversation is typically an awkward one,
compounded by the fact that you only met your trip
(20:11):
participants earlier that day. Every trip leader has their own
poop talk style, and I used I like to use
a lot of humor. I'll start by introducing my shovel
named Doug, and I go want to say that during
this trip, you'll find that you want to go take
Dug out on a date, and then explain how a
date with Doug will go, including the need for privacy
and a date being far away from camp. I also
(20:32):
emphasize that Doug does not like to take long walks
in the beach, as it's against the Leave No Trace
policy to have poop too close to water sources. I've
never thought about all of this. I also stressed that
it's not polite to get poop on your date and
that Doug is only used for digging the hole. On
almost every trip I've led, Doug becomes an important member
of the trip and is often featured at the end
(20:53):
of every trip photo. Participants will often joke about Doug
cheating on them when someone else heads out into the
woods for a quote day with Doug, and we'll even
brag that they've been on more dates with Dougs than
other friends. He's people in Ontario. It was so saney.
This may seem silly, but talking about poop on a
trip is essential. Try not going poop for a week
(21:13):
because you're uncomfortable with a lack of facilities, and it
can be very dangerous to your health, causing blockages and
a lot of pain. I used to find talking about
poop to be a little weird, but now I take
a certain pride in being able to openly discuss what
was going on in mine and other people's bowels. Alexandra,
thank you so much. She also attached a picture of Doug.
(21:35):
It was It was great, Thank you, alex Yeah, and
it was clean, by the way, of course, very clean.
Don't get poop on duck, don't get poop on dugs.
So keep sending up your poop thoughts, guys, our way,
mom's other thoughts or other thoughts yes at how mom
Stuff at how stuff works dot com and during the
week see what Molly and I are working on on
(21:55):
our blog how to Stuff, and you can read articles
that Mollie and I have written and other podcast personalities
have written as well on our website how stuff works
dot com for more on this and thousands of other topics.
Does it how stuff works dot Com. Want more how
(22:17):
stuff works, check out our blogs on the house. Stuff
works dot Com home page. Brought to you by the
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