Why Isn't the Medical Community Taking Women's Pain Seriously?

Anney and Bridget get real about painful sex and why the medical community is so bad at listening to women.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and this is Bridget and this
is stuff I'm never told you. And today we're doing
kind of an inception episode, an episode within an episode.

(00:26):
And that's because originally the idea for this one was
painful sex, particularly for women, but then it turned into
so much more an examination of pain women, how we're
treated when we're in pain, A lot a lot of stuff,

(00:47):
a lot of stuff the medical profession. Absolutely, there's a
lot of issues. It kind of feels like the hydra
where you you chop off one head in two more
tickets place. So we could probably do a mini series
from this alone, and I would be very interested to
do that same. But a disclaimer right off the top.
We are not a medical podcast, so always, always, always

(01:09):
consult a professional if you're concerned about something. I'd just
like to say that because people yell at me about
it all the time. Why are you giving medical advice?
I am not. We're having a medical based conversation. You're
not giving legit medical advice. We're not doctors. No, absolutely not. Okay,
so let's let's start out with the painful sex thing. Um,

(01:34):
So what we're talking about is recurring, our persistent, painful
penetrative sex in this case vaginal either before, during, or after,
also called dispornia mostly in regards to women, but we're
also going to touch on women's pain more in general.
More to come. According to the A c o G.
Three out of four women experience painful intercourse during their lifetimes,

(01:57):
so a lot this could be a passing problem on
that only comes up with certain positions or with certain partners,
or a long term one. A couple of reasons why
this could be the case, having an active infection like
a yeast infection, chlamydia or u t i ovarian cysts,
having a skin disorder that might develop ulcers or cracks, volvadinia,
which is chronic pain in the vulva region, endometriosis This

(02:20):
is when the uterine tissue lining grows on other organs,
which is very very common, any type of hormonal change
like menopause, vaginitis, vaginice nous. Now, basically this is a
condition where there's an involuntary contraction of the vaginal floor
and pelvic floor, which means that even putting a tampon
or arousal can cause pain. You've also got pelvic inflammatory disease,

(02:42):
childbirth resulting in tears and paraneum. Lack of sexual desire,
which in turn leads to lack of sexual response or
arousal and could create a painful experience. The reasons for
that alone would make quite a long list. For instance,
a big one is what's going on in your head,
your state of mind. I know, I've I've seen this
study before, that's like a legitimate scientific study. But women

(03:03):
are more frequently worried about how they look naked than men,
so they're like constantly in their head about it, and
it makes it less enjoyable. That might make you feel
more embarrassed or awkward and unable to relax, more tense. Um,
there's the lack of desire for sex or for your partner,
if your partner is experienced a sexual problem, that might
make you feel self conscious. And then there's medication or

(03:26):
medical or surgical condition. All these things could be the
culprit of why sex could be a painful experience for you. Yeah,
that is quite the laundry list of reasons. There are
so many, and it could be more one or more right,
if you could have an infection and also you know,
have a terror. You know, it can be multiple things

(03:46):
at once. Absolutely, and I read so many accounts researching
this of UM women who felt like they were failing
as a partner because they couldn't have enjoyable sex and
their partner wanted this thing, but they couldn't do it
without experiencing extreme pains. So there's also the mental aspect
of it as well. For most women who do feel

(04:09):
pain during sex, is probably centralized around at the vulva,
the vestibule, which is what surrounds the vaginal opening or
the vagina, but it could be in loads of other
places or more than one area at once. The obvious
advice if you're experiencing this is to go to an O, B, G,
y N or another healthcare professional, unless it's PTSD related
or something similar, in which case you would see a

(04:32):
healthcare professional, just a different source. They're going to ask
about your medical and sexual history, probably give you a
physical exam or perhaps a pelvic exam or ultrasound. They
might prescribe something like pelvic floor therapy. This is still
the go to advice, but we're not saying do not
do this, but unfortunately, not all too infrequently you might

(04:52):
be told to just relax, chill out, take a chill
pill or have some wine. That's a big one. I
have been told this. Um, okay, well ask someone who
deals with anxiety. Just telling someone to relax doesn't work.
Nothing makes me less likely to relax than someone telling
me to relax. Me too. I used to have a rule.

(05:13):
I would still have this rule if I was in
a relationship. But never ever tell me to take a
chill phil or anything like that, because then you're creating
two problems for yourself. Really exactly, and all of this
led Emily Sar, a woman who experienced painful intercourse, to

(05:34):
invent the oh Nuts. What is the oh nut? An well,
I'm glad you, asked bridget Um. It is a donut shaped,
stretchy silicone device that you place on the base of
the penis. Sara describes it as quote an intimate wearable
that allows you to customize the depth of penetration. And

(05:54):
when I first pitched this the bridget this is one
of the reasons I love you, Bridget I said, so
there's the was this device? And he said, I'm in
h yeah, I am all this is maybe t M.
I I love a good bedroom device. It's like, yes,
tell me more. I don't know everything it was great.

(06:14):
It was the easiest pitch process ever. UM Sara made
this herself, molding silicone into four rings with comfort bridges
and a design to make sure that a condom stays
in place. With the clinical testing out of the way, UM,
a board of medical advisors on her side, and a
patent pending, she hopes to start shipments in October. Oh

(06:35):
like orgasm. Yeah, that way, it's called oh nut. Well,
it's doughnut and oh nut. Yeah, it's a it's a
working on multiple levels. Smart Emily is one smart cooking
way to Emily sour. Yes, absolutely, So that was the
impetus for this. I think we both saw that device

(06:55):
and we're like, what is this? But it kind of
led down this deeper rabbit hole, kind of centered around
that glass of wine thing. But before we get into that,
let's take a quick break for a word from our sponsor,
m and we're back to take a sponsor. Okay, So

(07:22):
one of the things that might be a piece of
this whole puzzle it has to do with something the
medical community has dubbed the gentle syndrome, a phrase that
originates from a two thousand three study published in the
Journal of Law Medicine and Ethics called the Girl who
Cried Pain a bias against women in the treatment of pain.
The authors of the study concluded that women are quote

(07:43):
more likely to be treated less aggressively in their initial
encounters with the health care system until they prove that
they are as sick as male patients. It's sometimes called
the gender pain gap. So basically, we are not listening
to women when it comes to us complaining about feeling pain.
An article about the experience of women in the e
R in The Atlantic featured this stat the way time

(08:04):
for an analgesic for acute abdominal pain is an average
weight of forty nine minutes for men and sixty five
minutes for women. That means that a woman is in
pain for longer, basically just hurting and complaining, and they
are taking their takes her them longer to take her
seriously and give her treatment for what she is experiencing,
which is pain. Yeah. The woman in the story Rachel,

(08:27):
she went to the emergency room for extreme pain in
her adomint and it was written by her husband and
the way he described it, it it sounded brutal when they
showed her, like how much pain are you in from
one to ten, she said eleven, and he said this
was very out of character for her. So they get
to the yar and we're essentially patted on the head, untild,
We've got a lot of patients. Wait your turn. The

(08:48):
mail doctor on call was so certain she was suffering
from kidney stones that he never came back to make
sure that that was correct. It took a whole shift
change for him when he was replaced by female doctor.
When she looked at the results and realized it wasn't
kidney stones at all, but overy in torsion, which is excruciating,
lee painful, and she had been I think it was

(09:09):
thirteen hours of just intense pain and to be dismissed
over and over. And the author of the article pointed
out that if she had been a single woman and
hadn't had because he was there advocating for her, and
he was there like there's something wrong, he was going
up to when the new doctor came into the ship change,

(09:29):
he went up to her. If he hadn't been there,
who knows how long she would have waited. God, that
makes me so angry. Me too, This whole thing makes
me very angry. Another article from The Huffington Post, specifically
about pain during sex, chronicled a woman named Mary who
experienced such painful cramping during sex she'd cry in the

(09:52):
shower afterwards. Yeah, if you are crying in the shower
post sex, and that's a normal thing for you, like
some things up, that's not a normal A medical professional
here's that that should send alarm bells up for them. Yes, absolutely,
but it didn't doctor after a doctor told her essentially,

(10:13):
drink wine, relax. Maybe the sex you're having is too rough,
or maybe it's all in your head. I bet so
many of us have heard that, because of course women
are hysterical and if I say I'm in pain, here
are my physical symptoms X y Z, it's all in
your head, little lady. Yeah, yeah, yeah, just just calm down.

(10:34):
The founder of Stanford's Female Sexual Medicine program at the
Stanford Hospital says she was taught taught to tell women
reporting sexual pain to go home and drink wine. And
I'm all for wine, Bridget, but that's not going to
any problem. I mean, wine isn't a isn't a medical elixir.
I love. I mean it's for me as a kidding,

(10:59):
but yeah, it's like we we should not be doc
you should not be prescribing wine poor people. As someone
who's always advocating around mental health, if you if you
are a medical professional, you want someone to relax, you
should not be saying go home and drink wine. Like
that's not useful advice. No, no, And especially for people
who might be struggling with alcohol, because what if you

(11:19):
don't like what if you don't drink or what if
what then what we'll give uxan X Like what like?
Why are we not treating the actual problems? Why are
we pushing wine on women who are complaining about legitimate
medical issues. It's infuriating. I'm infuriating, I know, I know.

(11:41):
Oh it gets worse. Um. But Mary, the woman we
were just talking about, with the help of a friend,
eventually correctly diagnosed herself. And I know so many people
in the medical field that hate that, but she diagnosed
herself with endometriosis and got treatment. She'd also because it's
gone so long untreated, she developed vagin i smiths as well,

(12:01):
and after eight months of public floor therapy, the pain
she experienced during sex is now for the most part gone.
But she that was like ten years. Yeah, I had
a similar ish experience. I this is such a strange story,
but I diagnosed myself with ovarian cysts from watching the

(12:22):
show Real Housewives of Atlanta. Sounds wild, right. There's a
character on the show, Cynthia Bailey, who and she's and
we're in Atlanta now, so shout out to Atlanta. She
goes through you know, basically, for most of my adult life,
I had had intense like my periods were always really intense.

(12:43):
I think my periods last for, you know, nine nine days,
and they're often like very very, very bad. And then
I I always thought this was normal. I didn't know
that this was not normal. And I was watching Real
Housewives and Cynthia Bailey describes her symptoms and she goes
through the treat and of her getting diagnosed and treated
in surgery for ovarian system. I thought that sounds like me.

(13:07):
One of the things that she said was that tabloids
or whatever often suggested that she was pregnant because she
had a little bit of a bump. And I'm a
very thin person, but I have a little bit of
a a little bit of a tummy, and that I
saw a picture of myself in a clingy dress and
I thought, yeah, I do. You sort of look like
they're like, there's something going on. And I went to

(13:28):
the doctor, and that's exactly what it was. So if
I had not, because we don't live in a world
that you know, we're the symptoms of this. And by
the way, for black women, ovarian cysts are so common
and I didn't even I never even heard of it,
and it was this stupid reality show that was the
thing that made me even have it on my radar,
and I could. I know that doctors don't like it

(13:49):
when you come in and you're like, I know what
the problem is. But if we don't live in a
world where our pain is treated like it's a serious
issue and that we're not given the resources to figure
out what's what's up with us? What, we have to
take things into our own hands. And you know, I'm
glad that she did it, and I'm glad that she
was able to get some help and and have less
painful sets. Yeah, me too, And I have a similar experience,

(14:12):
which is telling right there that we both have a
have an experience like this. But when I was fourteen, um,
I was experiencing just a lot of um headaches, like unrelenting.
They would last weeks, like very painful. And I went
to I was I was a person that hated going

(14:33):
to the doctor. I would wait and wait and wait,
but eventually it reached to the point I had to
go and I started crying during the appointment because it
it hurts so bad. They sent me to the gynecologist
to get put on birth control for being hormonal. That
was that was your diagnosis for your headaches. You're like

(14:54):
mind numbingly four day long headaches. Didn't work, No, and
it actually kind of back fired because some women have
bad responses to birth control, and I had a horrible
response to birth control, and to this day, I'm very
hesitant about going to the doctor. But also control. Basically,
you schedule doctor's appointment, you paid a copay for them

(15:16):
to make it worse. How can oh crippling headaches? That's
double dad on mac. I got an ultra sound like
it was a whole thing, and I remember being like
it happened so quick. It was a WorldWind of you
need to go to the guy in a collegist And
I was like fourteen, so I said, I was a
guy in collegist And then man, this is t m I,

(15:36):
but I found out that UM, if you use cheap
pregnancy test, they tested me to see if I was pregnant. Um,
you can show up pregnant. It says positive. And they
called my parents and told them I was pregnant. It
was a horrible day. It was bad, really bad. Amy.
I don't have the words. I oh, man, I try

(15:59):
not to think about it, but it is how did
you convince your parents you weren't pregnant? I think probably
my hysterical like sobbing well, and I think about this
all the time because the fear I felt when he
told me, the doctor told me, you're pregnant, and my
immediate reaction was terror, just pure Yeah. But I think

(16:21):
about that all the time of like I used to
because I was a kid. And I then I got
it in my head, like how did my mom feel
when she found out she was pregnant with me? It
really messed me up, is what I'm saying. It was
a traveling It was a traveling experience to have at
that young age and you weren't even pregnant. No, no, no.

(16:42):
And I never fixed the headache, but I did. Eventually
they became less less of a problem more manageable. And
there's another study we should talk about moving away from
my tractic space. Um, there's a study that came out
in twenty seventeen that found women are less likely than
men to get CPR when they need it because boobies,

(17:05):
because they're people are afraid about the boobs and clothes.
I thought that was funny. Well, I don't want to
mess up or outfits. Yeah, I'll let her die on
this on this part looking good. Man when they bury
her can be looking for her blouse is going to
be in scene condition. Yeah. It just goes to show
how anxious society is around women's bodies. I mean, letting

(17:29):
someone die on a floor because you don't want to
touch their breasts and give them CPR or mess up
their blouse. Yeah, that's pretty ridiculous. Yea, if anyone sees
me dying on the floor, you've permission to give me CBR.
Yeah please. Um. Women's pain is more likely to be
treated with sedatives than pain killers as compared to men,

(17:50):
and they're more likely to be seen, as we've touched
on by doctors as emotional. That whole women are emotional.
It's all on your head rather than a physical proper
even when they are presenting the same symptoms as a
male patient. And this is played out in what's called
the gender paradox. Women have longer life expectancy than men,

(18:10):
but men have longer active life expectancy. And active life
expectancy are the years that you live free and able
to do basic task without help. Women are living longer,
but they're not living better than men. Um half of
American women have one, if not more than one chronic

(18:31):
health condition. But for the last two decades this has
been twisted into men are more stoics, so they are
less likely to report, and women are more emotional and
more likely to complain, which the numbers don't actually show.
Even if that were true, the number doesn't. They don't
show that well. I want to unpack that for a second,
this idea of women complaining. I once had a friend

(18:51):
who told me that in her in her chart whatever,
that her doctor basically suggested that she was hysterical or
difficult because she cantinue to complain about pain. If you
are experiencing on a scale of one to ten eleven
level pain, damn right, I'm gonna complain, right, But it's
not if you like, in what world do people not

(19:13):
complain when they're experiencing intense discomfort and pain? Right? So,
so even if this stat were true, it's not. But
even if it was true that women complained about chronic pain,
yeah you think yeah, right? Uh, And I've I've definitely
experienced that two where they show you the pain chart.
I'm like, I don't want to be seen as a boss.
Let's go let's low ball it, even though I think

(19:35):
it's here, Let's go lower than that. Yeah. I mean,
at this point, I think I know a lot of
women who could have a harpoon stuck in their chest.
I don't want to be a bother, but there is
a harpoon in my chest. Just when you get a minute,
I would love. I'm sure other people have problems. This
guy needs viagora, I get it. When there's a minute,

(19:56):
can we addressed the harpoon? I'm fine, I'm fine. Um,
And these biases can be deadly. A study from the
New England Journal of Medicine, published in two thousand came
to the conclusion that during our heart attack, women were
seven times more likely seven times more likely to be
misdiagnosed and discharged than men. The root cause of this

(20:18):
almost certainly has to do with the fact that the
medical understanding of most diseases is based on male bodies
and guess what women might present different symptoms novel idea.
The problem isn't limited to this, either of pain studies
had only male participants, be them mice or men. The

(20:39):
basis of most medical research comes from studies on seventy
white men. It wasn't until the nineties that the US
federal government mandated that studies conducted by the n i
H had to include women and minorities. And you can
imagine how all of this impacts women reporting any pain
of a sexual nature. And on the reverse side of that,

(21:00):
how women's health almost always gets reduced to reproductive health.
This is such a big pet peeve of mind. It
bugs me how women's health issues are just sort of
compartmentalized as oh, like reproductive issues. It just it just
puts us in a box where our health concerns are
other and then there's just general health concerns exactly. It's

(21:22):
like we experience for human people that experience the same things,
the same diseases, conditions, whatever is men, but we might
were made up differently, so we might experience in them differently,
but instead it's like the man is this is, We
did the studies on this one, so it's fine. Well,
the man is considered to be the default body, and

(21:43):
so the woman's body is other special, compartmentalized, regulated to
the corner or whatever. Medical science needs to wake the
up and realize that there's all different kinds of bodies
along the gender spectrum, and that all those bodies need
to be studied so that we can all be healthy.
Just just just to sue mean that the white man
is the archetypal body is both, Yeah, and that will

(22:05):
all fit into because you got from that. Yeah, because
we don't. I mean, it's just such obvious nonsense that
it enrages me. Yes, and I do want to say,
I'm not and I don't know that you are, but
not diminishing the pain. No, I definitely am. Then your
pain is not real. My pain is real? Kidding, am
I I don't know. I don't tell me. Chronic pain

(22:27):
is in general poorly understood and not well treated in
the United So even so even in men, chronic pain
is not well understood, well treated. I'm probably not taken seriously, probably,
but it's for sure not taken seriously what it's reported
by women. Yes, it's taken even less seriously. And furthermore,
when it comes to gender imbalance in terms of medical diagnoses,
I could not get over the study that found that

(22:49):
women who are beautiful are often subconsciously assumed to be
healthy by doctors. Then women might be told that you
can't be sick because you look great, whereas women who
are heavier, well, there's some are oftentimes just hand on
their weight, which is both You know, I'm I'm a
thin person. Just because I'm thin doesn't mean that I'm
automatically healthy or even that I'm working out or eating

(23:11):
a healthy diet. People look at you and they think automatically, Oh,
if you're heavier, you know, your first problem is that
you need to lose some weight. There was just this
article in Glamour magazine where a friend of mine, Liz,
was told that, you know, when she went to the doctor,
they were like lecturing her about how she needs to
have a healthier active lifestyle. Knowing Liz, this girl does

(23:32):
dance classes, play soccer. She's the most one of the
most healthy active people I know. So when she said, actually,
like I am a very pretty basically fit person. They
were like, oh, okay, well and they change their tunes.
So had she not have spoken up and said, you
don't actually even know anything about me. You're just assuming
about me based on how you think I present right now,

(23:53):
based on literally nothing. It makes me so sad that
medical science is getting hung up on these these ideas
is of you know, looks wait, you know, beauty, perceived beauty.
We can't escape, we can't escape, we can't escape. Um.
Another common stereotype that women might face when they go

(24:15):
to see a doctor or any kind of medical health
professionals that educated women are often told to get off
the internet. You're on web and be too much. You're fine,
and less educated women are accused, um of being liars
looking for a disability check. So it's sexist and classist. Great,
I get that one too. Funch in there, Yeah, I

(24:35):
really gotta get it up there. Um. And this kind
of reminds me of Okay, I don't know how many
of you know about this, but there's this thing during
Victorian times. Probably everyone knows about this, but sickness and
women as a sign of frailty, of vulnerability, of sensitivity
and all of those things made a woman more desirable.
You wanted her to be sick because it she was
fragile then, and you it's like that Charlotte Perkins Gillman

(24:59):
shorts or raised the Yellow wallpaper where she's she's sick
and her husband is like getting off on I mean,
I haven't read this in a year, so this could
be wrong. I think it's right, but it could be wrong.
Her husband is like getting off on her being sick,
getting off on her being unable to leave their leave
their house, you know, and it's awful. Yeah, I think

(25:23):
it's interesting to me that a woman who is sick
or ill, or perceived that way was like sexy in
Victorian times. Yeah, it was one of those things where
I felt, really, it's strange to read about those times
because it feels so bizarre to me. But some women
used to catch tuberculosis on purpose, oh my god, to

(25:43):
look attractive for a little bit. They knew it's gonna
kill me probably, but I'll look good for a little bit,
And my heart is just like that is die young.
We have a good looking corse. J get in touch
about I swear, I swear it's just meant to be

(26:06):
we can't deny that whatever is going on here, it's
meant to be. I found this study when doing the
research on this one that I really enjoyed, called The
Grand Theory of Female Pain by Leslie Jamison, and I
read the whole thing, and I really enjoyed it because
it touched on like a lot of things that I
experienced when I was in high school, particularly um, and
it just showed how complicated our views are on female pain.

(26:30):
There's just so much tied up in it, of not
wanting to present in a particular way, not wanting people
to think you're like trying to get attention or you're
faking it, but at the same time, like being a
certain level of vulnerable. There's a there was a lot
of stuff tied up in it, and if you're interested,
I would highly recommend going to go read it. And again,

(26:52):
this problem of not taking women seriously when they talk
about their pain. It all goes back to pain during
sex where we started, or just in general UM pain
in gynecological problems, though ten percent of the female population
suffer from indometriosis, for instance, it takes an average of
seven or eight years to get a diagnosis. In n

(27:17):
the n H had thirty nine veterinarians on staff, but
only three gynecologists, and the first hormone therapy study using
female subjects took place a year earlier. And if you're
thinking in your head, M, we need birth control get invented. Yeah,
there's a bit of a disconnect there. There is a

(27:38):
bit of a disconnect. Yep Um. Last night, I've watched
like three things on actual television now and one of
them I was watching last night and commercial came out
for indometriosis for it to like, go go talk to somebody.

(27:58):
Endometriosis is not lobbing somewhere big indo. Oh. I just
realized earlier I said Cynthia Bailey, it was it was cist,
it was fibroids. Realized that I got them confused. But
the point still stands. So basically, that's sort of what
I was talking about earlier, is that I, even though

(28:20):
fibroids are so common, particularly in black women, I had
never heard of them. I didn't know any of the
symptoms or any anything around it. And it wasn't until
seeing that stupid reality show that I even knew anything
at all about it, and having commercials on TV that say,
do you feel this way, X y Z, talk to
your doctor. Here's what you should say. You know, it's

(28:41):
a shame that we have to train women to be
taken seriously by doctors. But then that's where we're at. Yeah,
and it's kind of interesting that you say that, because
I don't know, have you seen the commercial? I think so?
Is it like a woman at the doctor and it's
like her voice. You feel that you can't, I can't
got to speak up, tell her how you're feeling. Yeah.

(29:03):
A woman who was describing her journey to get diagnosed
with in demetriosis calls a time when her doctor told
her it'll get better when you've had a baby. And
when I read that, I got goose phones because I've
been told the same thing, it'll get better when you
have a baby. I think it was like sixteen. Oh,
that's thanks, that's very helpful. All right, Oh no, teen motherhood.

(29:31):
You say, well, the doctor told me, so, I have
a prescription here for teen motherhood and my parents are
like what. And this double standard of treatment in the
medical field is nothing new, going all the way back
to Aristotle, who labeled the female body as a matter
as opposed to the superior milk form um, the wandering womb.

(29:52):
Of course, hysteria during Victorian times. Most women suffering from
hysteria were later labeled to be rebellious, are simply not
being quiet and proper as a ladies should be. But
some of them almost certainly were actually sick and dismissed,
So we've done them a double disservance. Probably died, probably
from their illness that people thought was them being emotional

(30:15):
or being hysterical. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And there's a great
book on this whole thing, Mind do some Berries doing harm?
The truth about how bad medicine and lazy science leave
women dismissed, misdiagnosed, and sick. When the American Medical Association
formed at the beginning of the twentieth century, she writes
all about this. They commissioned the Carnegie Foundation to conduct

(30:36):
reviews on the nation's medical programs, and it found, among
many things, no quote strong demand for women physicians, are
any strong ungratified desire on the part of women to
enter the profession, Which wasn't true, of course, not but
met women were pretty much kept out of the medical
field for the next several decades. The same was true

(30:57):
for minorities. The report suggested the country needed enough of
minority doctors to serve their own communities. Two point nine
percent of medical school graduates were women in the US
in nineteen fifteen. It wasn't until the mid nineteen seventies
that that number even got to the double digits. Yeah,
the only female acting as an institute director at the

(31:18):
n i H said, quote, the historical lack of research
focus on women's health concerns has compromised the quality of
health information available to women, as well as the healthcare
they receive. And we're still feeling that today. Yeah, it
doesn't seem like we've really improved that much, not as
much as one would hope. Yeah. One of the best

(31:41):
examples of this whole thing was the story I found
about the attitude in the US toward ovarian cancer. And
ovanian cancer was called the silent killer until two thousand
and seven, even though women were reporting symptoms and being ignored.
It was the silent more like that nagging, complaining. Am

(32:02):
I right? The impetus for changing the whole conversation around
this started um at a survivor conference after women stormed
angrily and quote and almost theatrical embodiment of an outraged
mob towards the speaker after he said he was a

(32:23):
Harvard physician and he responded to the question of what
are the early symptoms of a vegan cancer with this
this answer there are none, So all that complaining that
women have been doing was just going un listened to. Yeah,
it was a weird circular, like it's the silent killer,
there are no symptoms. Why didn't you speak up sooner?

(32:45):
We could have known it was? I read all about it.
I was like, I'm not sure how this made sense
to anybody, right, I mean, it just it made sense
because it's women and they're being discounted. Their agency is
not considered, and so when they do speak up about
their pain, it's also somehow still their own fault. We're
not doing the thing they did because we can't win
because we're women. Here UM and one of the I

(33:09):
have this story was being recounted by a female UM
Harvard physician who was watching her colleague gets stormed by
this angry mob, and she said she was glad that
she wasn't the one up there because she would have
answered the same thing, because that was the textbook answer.
That is what you learned. So the survivors said about
changing this by sending out surveys, and they got over

(33:31):
a one pent response rate because recipients of the survey
were forwarding it to others. Um and there are obvious
limitations because its survivors itself selecting, but it was a start,
and it got rid of the silent killer nickname, and
it got four symptoms of a varian cancer declared in
a national consensus statement in two thousand and seven, which
is so it's so recent, but that shows that unfortunately

(33:56):
again we kind of have to be our own advocates,
and we need to talk to each other and be
the community and like push for change. Yeah, I'm happy
that these women did that, you know. And I think
I think it sometimes it takes a big dramatic show
to get someone to listen if they just are insisting,
you know, insisting on ignoring you. It reminds me of

(34:17):
that Zora Neil Hurston quote if you're silent about your pain,
they'll kill you and say you enjoyed it, you know.
And I think that as women, we are even when
we speak up, we have to scream just to be heard.
And I think that's what these women did. And if
you're wondering why women have been left out, well, some
people have said for their own good it was sort

(34:40):
of a benevolent sex is something that research could be
bad for you and your hypothetical fetus um or. One
example somebody actually gave was there wasn't a lady's bathroom
at the research site. Oh don't, we don't. We don't
need to worry about that. Why why go through the trouble?
Ladies and their periods and or hormones might throw the

(35:02):
research off. That was a very frequent reason. There could
be bears and there in the period could attract bears
or land sharks. Yeah, you never know. You can't be
too careful with bears and sharks. That is absolutely true,
Bridget You've turned me around on this whole issue. Women's
bodies were frequently pointed to as being more complicated, so
why spend more money studying them? Okay, So, speaking of

(35:25):
the idea of women's bodies are more complicated, friend of
the show Julia Carpenter on Twitter once posted this absurd
passage from a novel describing a woman going to the bathroom.
Here's what the passage said about the difference between men's
bodies and women's bodies. When it comes to taking a
pe men, they were able to conjure it up immediately.
That was one of their powers, that thunder splashing as

(35:46):
they stood lordly above the bowl. Everything about them was
more direct. Their ensigns weren't. The maze of woman's were
for the p had to find its way through. And
Julie tweeted this saying, this is what happens when we
men write books where the men think that women's bodies
are this complicated maze that he runs through. What is this? Oh,

(36:08):
I thought was what? It was blowing my mind, bridget
It just goes to show that you're so right, the
idea that women's bodies are inherently amaze that you can't
even understand them and they're more complicated, and why bother?
I mean, it's so it's so ludicrous. It absolutely is.
And um, I have I have some more personal antitigotes.

(36:29):
I feel like we could just turn this into our
personal Annie and Bridgetina Hour, which basically would be a
good alternate name for this podcast. It really would be.
We should think about that. I'm gonna pin that for later.
Um I had really severe asthma as a kid, and
I remember when I went to the hospital to take
the test um, like you had to blow into this

(36:51):
tube and it was really difficult and I couldn't like
even move the little thing um. The doctor told me
I needed to exercise more and that was that was
the end. And later, I think it was a week later,
I passed out at school because I couldn't breathe and
I had to be taken to the hospital and ambulance
and by the time I got there, my lips were blue.
It was a much more serious situation than it had

(37:12):
been when I went in, but they just dismissed it.
The doctor when I when I told him about my headaches,
he said it was only in my head, and I
can only hope he was going for the joke there.
This whole episode has inspired me because I have had
painful sex and also I can't like wear a tampon
without extreme pain. And now I kind of just took

(37:33):
those things for granted. Yeah, like that's that must just
be me. Well, that's what I was saying with my fibroids,
and I just thought everybody has periods that involved horrible
pain that makes you double over where I mean, I
used to admit I used to regularly miss school and work,
and I thought I thought that was I did not
realize that was not a normal thing. And it took
what you said earlier about the women with the ovarian

(37:55):
cancer advocating for each other and like sharing information that
is so important, because we need to share what's normal
and what's not. And you know, when you're in high school,
no one's talking that you're not talking with their friends
about what it's like to have your period. I didn't
even know that what I was experiencing was super atypical.
I thought, we'll get ready for this, bridget. I thought

(38:16):
periods were a myth made up by my big brother
in specific, and I thought they weren't really a thing
that happened Soto And behold May when I was in
fourth grade and I was at You remember the exact day, Yes,
because I was at a field trip the Nutcracker and
I was wearing white tights. Oh no, you better believe

(38:38):
I remember the day. And then a month later when
it happened again, I cried even more that time because
I thought it was a one time deal. I didn't
know it was the rest of your most of the
rest of your life. I feel like there's still so
much mystery about the female body. Just yeah, bodies in
general too, but particularly there's a lot more to be
done to understand this. And I think we dismissed too,

(39:01):
Like I've broken up in relationships over over this. Over
painful sex. Well, I think if you have a long
term chronic painful sex issue, it does require a partner
who is sensitive and understanding and that you can communicate with.
And I can only imagine that would if you did
not have those things having to sort out. You know,

(39:22):
the source of your painful sex. It's only exasperated by
a partner who was not kind of there for you.
It's it's hard to explain that somebody wrote an article
I think it was the Huffington Post one I mentioned earlier,
but she was just talking about how like, even if
the partners supportive, you feel personally like you were failing,
and it's hard not to one you start to dread

(39:43):
just the relationship in general, and even if the person
is like saying all the right things, you get in
the back of your head like I am not so,
and then you'll take it out on them, and it's
just a vicious thing. Yeah, and I think I think
a part of it is also shame, you know, feeling.
I think the women especially feel shame when they're not
able to perform sexually in the way that they feel

(40:05):
they are quote supposed to, and that even even if
your partner is super supportive saying the right thing, we
live in a society that says that women need to
be you know, sexy for their their partner, their man
or whatever whenever, and they need to be able to
do it, you know, a certain kind of way. And
I can imagine feeling a lot of internalized shame and

(40:26):
feeling like something was wrong with me if I was
not able to perform quote unquote in that way because
we've been pressured. I mean, if you watch TV, you
would think that a woman is ready to have sex
all day, every day, and that all the man has
to do is basically like look in her general direction,
that she has an orgasm and it goes smoothly every time,
and you know, nobody ever farts or you know, nobody

(40:49):
ever poops a little during anal sex or whatever. It's like.
You would imagine that you would if you were to
take the media's interpretation of sex at face value, it's
no wonder that people would internalize a lot of shame
around sound, the inability to function in a specific way.
Oh yeah, I think of all the magazine covers when
you're waiting inline, ladies, here's that to please your man,
doing this, this and to this somewhere over. Well, we

(41:12):
still have we still have a little bit more to say,
hopefully some hopefully some hope for the future. But first
one more quick break for word from our sponsor, and
we're back, Thank you sponsor. Alright, So, if you're experiencing

(41:35):
painful sex, if that's particularly the thing, certainly do go
to an O, B, G, Y N if that's an
option for you. Um. Or if it's a more of
a mental thing and the therapist is an option, do that. Um.
There are a couple of steps you can take on
your own. You can try using lubricant, preferably one that
is water soluble if your skin is sensitive. If anxiety

(41:55):
is a problem for either you or your partner are both,
try to set aside time times that are less stressful
and like a good chunk of time. Um because four
play is important, sometimes it's fun to do it under
a time crunch. But you know, if you if you
want to have a good window. Yeah, if this is
a problem for you and you think that like having
that time to sort of relax and get into it

(42:16):
will help, try that. Um. If there are areas that
are no goes but others are fine pain wise or otherwise,
communicate that to your partner always, communication is great. Or
try something other than vaginal intercourse, like mutual masturbation or
oral sex. You can try taking over the counter pain
reliever before and if you experience pain after, you can
use an ice pack are something similar wrapped in a

(42:36):
towel and applied to the vulva. I love that because
I've always said my favorite sex to way it's communication,
the best one out there. And it's free. It's free,
it's free. That is a that's a good sex story. Bridget.
I did read one account of someone getting botox for
her vagina, Yeah, to stop the painful contraction of muscles.

(42:58):
And it's obviously not a naval for a lot of us,
but it's worth checking out. Perhaps just reading I was
interested to read more about it, and on a broader scale,
we need to start taking women's pain more seriously. We
need to start dismantling these stereotypes. Going back to do
some various books, she says, there's a trust gap and
a knowledge gap, and we need to address them both.
We don't trust women and we don't really have that

(43:20):
much knowledge about how their bodies are working. Like worst
of both worlds. Really, it's very bad combination to have.
We need more medical research specifically on women. As of
two thousand nine, women represented only thirty seven percent of
trial subjects. And this is based on a randomized survey
of federally funded research published in nine of the big

(43:42):
medical journals. They repeated it twice and got the same
results twice. That number gets even worse when you're looking
at pregnant women, which have been called the most underrepresented
group in the entire clinical research process. Well, it's no
wonder that we have such atrocious numbers when it comes
to maternal health and like maternal death in this country. Yeah,

(44:03):
and it's strange too, because I get it on like
the base level, you're afraid to test drugs on pregnant women,
how are you going to get that study funded? At
the same time, And this is in the words of
director of the Johns Hopkins Institute of bioethics. Quote, we
learn on the backs of pregnant women while pretending we
don't experiment on pregnant women, because pregnant women do still

(44:25):
get sick and we give them drugs, but we don't
know how it's going, so we yeah, it's it's like
we're It kind of comes back to that idea of
sort of being benevolent, where we are pretending that we are,
you know, protecting this pregnant woman, but actually we are
not protecting them because we're letting them die and not
studying what's not studying what's happening with them in their bodies.

(44:47):
Another thing we need more or any because apparently there
aren't any accredited fellowships that allow doctors the option to
specialize and sexual health. Currently in i H, funding goes
to us in a third of female researchers. What is
H doing? This is like the third time that has
come up from thinking, Hey, what's going on? What you doing? Yes,

(45:12):
that is the National Institutes of Health. I should have
said that earlier if I did it, and the medical field,
this is something virgin and I want to discuss that
they have not that field has not been immune to
the me too movement either, and that has impacted the
retention rates, an ability to secure promotions for women or
to get funding for the projects. And also none of
this matters too much if there are systems in place

(45:34):
that prevent people from accessing affordable healthcare, just saying that's real. Yeah. Oh.
And also also we've been talking mostly about women insist women,
particularly today, but this problem also exists for minorities and
gender nonconforming folks. And I heard something on NPR recently
about like, if you're in a small town and just

(45:56):
the difficulty you might face as a trans person or
l g B t Q at large to go to
the doctor and get be taken seriously for anything. And
I think the bottom line just comes to listening to women.
Listen to women when they talk about their pain. Take
them seriously. Don't pat them on the head or tell

(46:18):
them to chill out or relax or have a glass
of wine. Listen to us, take us seriously, give us
money to study our bodies, you know, listen to women.
And always it's funny how it always comes back to that.
Somehow it does seem that way, doesn't it. Bridget does yes, Um,
So that's been our our look at Women's Pain. This

(46:41):
has been Anti and Bridget's Vagina Vagina, Vagina hour Deep.
That didn't come out like I wanted to. Oh l L.
Please yeah, just let us know what your experiences have been.
Listeners can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcasts

(47:02):
or on Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You, or
you can always email us at mom Stuff at how
staff dot com