Cannibals and Conspiracy: What Happened to Michael Rockefeller, Part Two

Deep in remote forests half a world away from the gilded halls of New York, Michael Rockefeller seems determined to learn as much as he can about one tribal community in particular. After his disappearance and a country-wide search, the theories begin: Did Rockefeller die? Was he murdered, then eaten? And, the strangest of all: Could he be alive today?

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio. Hello, welcome back to the show. My

(00:26):
name is Matt, my name is Noel. They call me Ben.
We're joined as always with our superproducer Paul. Mission control decands.
Most importantly, you are you are here and that makes
this the stuff they don't want you to know. Here
are the facts. This is a two part episode. You know,
we get into a lot of rabbit holes. Sometimes we

(00:46):
spelunk a little bit deeper than we had originally reckoned,
and this is one of those cases. So before you
do anything else, if you have not listened to part
one of Cannibals and Conspiracy, what happened to Michael Rockefeller,
get thee to that episode and then join back with us,
because we have so much more strange stuff to explore. Yes,

(01:08):
but what you need to know for this episode Michael Rockefeller,
son of Nelson Rockefeller, of the line of Rockefellers from
John D. Rockefeller, the standard oil guy. He the Rockefeller Rockefellers.
So one he went missing in New Guinea after going
on a trip on November seventeenth, nineteen sixty one. And
this whole episode, this whole series is about what happened

(01:31):
to him. And here's where this story stops being polite
and starts getting real. Actually, here's where it gets crazy.
So let's look at some of these theories in depth.
We've been talking about them. Let's laundry list them out
and row through them. Drowning Okay, it makes sense right
that miles long swim. That's tough, even if you have

(01:53):
sim improvised flotation. We talked about that people don't want
to necessarily hear stories about mundane death. They want something juicier,
dare we say more exotic. Well, it's also you know,
there was almost a need to find someone to blame,
you know, I mean people like the Rockefellers. Too many
in the United States were like superheroes, and they didn't

(02:15):
want to think that they were this vulnerable. And honestly,
as as you know, admirable, I guess, as as as
Michael's path was, it's a little embarrassing the idea of like,
you know, you died of drowning, you know, because you're
boat flipped over it's it's you know what I mean,
it's it doesn't have the same headline grabbing cache and

(02:37):
also divisiveness as something like was devoured by cannibals, these heathens,
you know what I mean, things like that. Yeah, and that,
by the way, was a conjecture of a pretty heavy conjecture,
the possibility that he was in fact killed by local
members of one of the communities that he made it

(02:57):
to shore, he got offshore, and some he was not
happy to find him, uh, you know, in their in
their area. There's a journalist named Milton Macklin who just
a few years after this whole thing went down, I
think eight years after, he traveled out to the area
because he had heard some rumors that he wanted to investigate.

(03:19):
And he went on the same kind of tricks that
Michael and that documentary crew were going on, that Michael
and Renee were going on. He did the whole retracing
the steps thing, tried to go to several different places
where Michael may have ended up to look for almost
archaeological evidence that Michael had landed in a certain area. Yeah,

(03:43):
he did, and he was doing his level best. Also, Yeah,
like I don't think he came in. There was something performative,
like a Heraldo rivera what's in the safe vibe, But
he did want to see whether there was any sand
to the various rumors and all the scuttle butt that
have been making the rounds. He also had been hearing

(04:06):
there was something that the public loved because it was
quite salacious, the idea that Rockefeller had kind of faked
his death and decided to start life anew, living with
one of these communities or in a way, living above them. Again.

(04:27):
The Heart of Darkness reference was brought up literally, like
was specifically brought up, and they you know, they would
use the phrase, they would use phrases like he's living
like a white god out out there in the wild.
Was that book out that was? That was a yeah, okay,
Heart of Darkness came out in eighteen ninety nine. Wow,

(04:48):
I did not realize it was that old. I guess
because Apocalypse now has modernized take all that story. Oh yeah,
yeah for sure. And people are there's a weird fascination
right with a curtsy and figure or so. It makes
sense from a focalore perspective, But Macklin. Macklin doesn't find
this persuasive gets there, he's on the ground and he's saying,

(05:10):
I don't I'm not finding evidence about this, but I
am finding what he says, his circumstantial evidence. Then Michael
Rockefeller may have survived to the shore and been murdered. Yeah,
And as we know, circumstantial evidence doesn't hold up in court.
So this is the guy taking a bit of a leap.
But what happened, Like, what's his theory? Yeah? Well, I mean,

(05:32):
like we mentioned this, this headhunting stuff and cannibalism. Again,
it wasn't just like I don't know that they would
have been just seeking out people to sacrifice. It was
part of a war ritual, like you were saying, Matt,
it was like a cycle of kind of revenge against
other tribes. Being that Rockefeller does not appear to be

(05:54):
part of any tribe and then, you know, does not
look that way. I do wonder why they might have
tard geted him for something like this, But let's let's
let's go on and see, Well what if the revenge
was not against another tribe but against the colonial powers.
The Dutch certainly looks like them. That's for all intents

(06:17):
and purposes, that's right. I didn't think about that, because
these folks kind of live on the fringes of this colonialization.
But it doesn't seem like at the time they were
being heavily persecuted, but there was an awareness of this
invading force threatening their way of life. Right. Yes, So
here's the logic. If Rockefeller made it to shore, if

(06:40):
the jerry Kens kept him afloat emboyed enough to get
there and still be alive, he would definitely be exhausted.
It wouldn't be his best day, you know, and he
would have likely arrived in the area of the oats
Genep village, which we are mispronouncing, not of speakers, it's

(07:00):
spelled ots j a n ep solid phonetics pronunciation. Man,
the best we can do. You know, who needs drugs?
We can get hooked on phonics. Right. And in this
whatever they got to me, the propaganda got to me anyway,
in this community at the time, to the point you
were making Matt that you were making old like this

(07:22):
is a part of a larger cyclical thing, retribution and
the retribution for the retribution unto the first the first
people and down to the end of history. Right, And
so this fits in with Macklin's understanding or his narrative,
because he says, you know, it wasn't too long ago.

(07:43):
In nineteen fifty eight, a Dutch colonial patrol killed several
leaders in this village, and so therefore, he says, it's
possible that Rockefeller was murdered as a form of retribution.
And I don't know about I don't know about anybody else.
But the first time I heard about this story many

(08:05):
younger days, I heard it presented as a fact, like
you would read things that said, Michael Rockefeller got into
this part of the world and they killed him and
they ate him. And it was presented no questions, no
real specifics of what happened past maybe the year past

(08:26):
nineteen sixty one had when you heard about this story,
how did you hear it presented? This spens relatively new
to me. I mean, I think I know it as
a trope, kind of like I said, with the card
of the Looney Tunes and all of that, But the
specifics of the story are pretty new to me. Matt. Yeah,
I can't tell you where I heard about it, guys.

(08:47):
I don't know if it was in Britannica somewhere where
I read about this as just a blurb if it
was one of these time life books that had it
as a cautionary tale kind of thing or a mystery.
But I do remember it being stated basically, this guy
went there, he was fascinated with this stuff, but he

(09:09):
was killed and he was eaten, and that they was
just like, that's what it was, So be careful of cannibals, right,
And again Machlin doesn't come back with proof of this,
but is saying, this is what I heard. And there's
another there are several sources proposing similar things. Is a
guy named Paul Tooey who wrote a book called Rocky

(09:32):
Goes West, and he says there was an entirely different,
distinct search. He says, the Rockefeller family hired a private investigator. Well,
and that's what I was asking about earlier, you know,
with all of this press conference stuff that seemed like
a lot of just bluster. Why didn't they go further?
And I know there were search parties and stuff, but

(09:53):
you'd think you'd find somebody who was like an expert,
you know, who could infiltrate this part of the world.
And so perhaps that did happen according to this story anyway,
And perhaps the family did get some evidence that their
son was murdered. This private investigator, according to Rocky Goes West,

(10:15):
came back to New York with some skulls that were
supposedly from white men who had been murdered by the tribe. Yeah,
and if you know, well, maybe maybe somebody out there
has heard anything further on this, But to date right now,
I've not seen it. I don't know if you guys

(10:36):
have seen any official response from the Rockefellers about this, Like,
did this actually happen? Is this real? That's pr man,
I mean, why would they It's it's not in their
best interest to get embroiled in any of these kind
of discussions, you know, Like you said, Ben, families like
this value privacy overall, you know. Yeah, and imagine imagine

(10:58):
the waves of unwanted a mention that would come through
if you if you said something that was taken out
of context, you know what I mean. Then the next
headline is insert Rockefeller family member here says something terrible
about dead relative. Well, they're business people, you know, that's

(11:19):
a very damage control. I mean, you do not why
comment when you don't have to, unless maybe the grieving
mother just had just felt compelled to do so, you
know what I mean, or father, but they would probably
be encouraged or counseled to not well. And just to
put the timeline out there, it's nineteen sixty nine when

(11:40):
Macklin goes and does his exploration, right. Nelson Rockefeller, Michael's dad,
becomes vice president in nineteen seventy four and is in
office till nineteen seventy seven. So there's that period between
governor and vice president, you know when this UF is
going down. Well, wait, it's is it nineteen sixty one

(12:03):
when Michael goes missing? Yes, okay, so there's quite a
bit that Nelson Rockefeller has to lose by bringing this
back up, because as he's getting further and further into
politics and deeper into the executive branch. You know, that's
the kind of thing that you just don't want, you
don't want to talk about. If it's just your son, well,

(12:23):
I mean, this is messed up, you guys. But if
it's just your son that went missing and potent and
probably died, that is a that is a story that
can help to win the hearts and minds of anybody
who might be a voter, right because it's so tragic,
so horrifying to think about it may provide in that
voter sympathy for a candidate, and it's horrible to think

(12:47):
about it in that cold manner. But it's true. Sure,
But why then the refusal to to to play that
card because of the cultural angle or because of the
you know, I'm wondering. I don't know, guys. I would
speculate that it has something to do with being embroiled
in international politics with the Dutch government, with right, some

(13:09):
of that stuff. I would imagine, you know, sending a
PI over there to discover, you know, the skull of
your child and then bring it home and then never
mention it might be a little weird, you know. Yeah.
History the History Channel, which is not a perfect source,
also claimed that the or they appeared to support some

(13:33):
of two He's claims. They also claimed that the Rockefellers
had a reward out for confirmation of what happened to
their son, to the tune of like two hundred thousand
dollars US or something, and that they paid the PI
when he returned to New York. But again, grains of salt,
there's still additional sources. There's a third source the documentary

(13:56):
keep the River to your right, And in this dinnery
there's an artist, an anthropologist named an AIDS activist as
well named Tobias Sneebomb, and Schneebomb says, Sneebomb has lived
in this area. It's not just some guy who was
working in la and got pulled in to look like

(14:17):
he had expertise. This this guy's a real deal. He
was living there and he said, you know, I've spoken
with members of this village and they told me that
they found this guy, this kid, this twenty year old
Rockefeller on the riverside, and they eventually consumed him. Jessie,
my something you'd share with the outsider journalist type fella. Yeah,

(14:44):
we saw him, Yeah, we ate him. Next question. We're
gonna pause here for a word from our sponsors, and
we'll return and we're back. Let's jump right back into
the story of what happened to Michael Rockefeller. When we
talk about these narratives, we see that multiple people have

(15:07):
brought forward some version of that story that they say
they heard while they were in countries. So Carl Hoffman,
in twenty fourteen, he writes a book called Savage Harvest,
a tale of cannibals, colonialism, and Michael Rockefeller's tragic quest
for primitive art. Right. Yeah, And Hoffman researches the disappearance extensively,

(15:31):
and part of his research involves multiple visits to villages
and communities in the area, and he says that he
keeps hearing various iterations of the same story people are
telling him. Look, Michael Rockefeller did make it to shore
men from this village, had a series of internal arguments,

(15:53):
and then as a result of their conversations, they killed him.
That makes a bit more sense than me. They couldn't
quite agree on what to do with them, and there
became it became no pun intended bone of contention, and
then it led to execution. Yeah, And it all stems
back to that little piece we mentioned earlier, where there

(16:14):
were the colonial powers that came through and killed some
members of that group, and then this was in some
way retaliation for that, Right. And Hoffman goes a step
further along that cycle and says that after Rockefeller's murder
or death, a cholera epidemic went through the area and

(16:35):
community members believed that this was in turn retribution for
killing Rockefeller, and then Hoffman also does something fascinating. Hoffman
uncovers the correspondence. So that priest we mentioned earlier, Cornelius
van Kessel, Yeah, this is the This is the missionary
guy who actually goes through and knows a lot of

(16:56):
the people, a lot of the osmad people. And this
guy asserts that warriors from that oxygenep village where Michael
you know, would have probably come on shore had he
made it to shore, had actually killed and devoured Rockefeller.
So it's this one guy who knew things, who can
actually go around and actually talk to people at the
time when Michael Rockefeller's being searched for, has written out

(17:20):
that this is the story. So we got a couple
of accounts then that seem relatively reliable. Yeah, yeah, well
because okay, so just imagine it this way. Van Kessel's
part of the Catholic Church. Am I incorrect in that?
I believe that is correct. He's a part of the
Catholic Church. He has there are other ministers who are

(17:43):
kind of invented within some of these tribes who also
take some notes, right and send send information back to
the Catholic Church that's they're in, you know, in country
and then sends it back to the larger Catholic church
also there communicating with the Dutch government. That's at least
according to the author here Karl Hoffman, who was speaking

(18:06):
in a BBC little one of those three minute blurb
videos right in promotion for a book, and he's talking
about how there were at least two pieces of correspondence
from ministers that stated pretty much unequivocally that Michael was
killed and eaton by this tribe. Yeah, yeah, this seems

(18:27):
like hard confirmation, right, And then Hoffman goes further and says,
some Dutch colonial officials obtained not just the skull, but
other bones that they thought belonged to Michael Rockefeller, and
these were you know, the next step would be to
test these in some way, but they disappeared. The remains

(18:47):
were gone before there was any kind of test or investigation,
which means there was possibly a cover up of foot
or perhaps just roast incompetence, but possibly a cover up
of foot. And the next what if the PI got
it right, and what if the Rockefellers said, this is
the personal closure we need and we don't need to

(19:09):
go public, we don't need to explain ourselves. Possible again,
but no proof. And there's another piece here which you
alluded to earlier, Matt, which is if there were a
motivation on the Dutch side to cover this up, what
would it be. Hoffman has an argument, and his argument
is essentially that as the Netherlands was leaving the area

(19:32):
they wanted, it was very important to them to make
it seem as though they left it better, it like
in a better state, as though their improved their presence
had improved it somehow. Pr once again, Yeah, for sure,
the ide again because this idea of civilizing people, you know,

(19:52):
who are seen as others, like you said, Ben, that
was sort of you know, their goal or at the
very least the their pr goal to make it seem
like that was the case. Yeah. And having one, you know,
the child of one of the most prominent human beings
on the planet killed and potentially eaten, it's probably not

(20:12):
a good look for them on your watch. Right. And
then also if you what do you do how do
you apply the legal system there? Right? And would a
like let's say it goes to European style court structure
and then people are found guilty of murder and there

(20:33):
sentenced to death. How is that not seen as something
that that just is another part of this cycle, right,
that triggers another reprisal, and on and on and on.
So how would they and then also how would they
navigate the sensitivities of a very powerful family in the
United States? And Hoffman again does a lot of digging here.

(20:58):
And there's a spot where Hoffman is talking or a
moment I should say, we're Hoffman's talking to a friend
of the family, a close friend of Mary Rockefeller, the twin,
and this person tells Hoffman the family refuses to believe
any version of the story beyond Michael's drowning. Yeah, and that's,
you know, may well be a pr line of its

(21:19):
own if we are to believe the skull story. Yeah, okay,
hold up, let's take a quick break right here in
the story and hear a word from our sponsors, and
then we'll be right back. Okay, guys, what's next. Don't

(21:39):
want to spoil the ending of Hoffman's book. If you're
interested in this story, it's very much worth your time
to pick up a copy. But there's there's this New
York Times review about it, which you can read online
as well. We got a quote here that doesn't entirely
spoil Hoffman's experience, but I think it will at least
give the vibe. Yeah, towards the end of the book

(22:00):
book this is yet from the from the New York
Times review. Towards the end of the book, he ventures
up the Owata River, hoping to live within the community
for a month and somehow elicit a confession. But Hoffman
gets the cold shoulder and senses that the villagers are
guarding a terrible secret. As he makes clear in this
gripping book, keeping the real story buried may have been

(22:20):
the safest choice for everyone involved. Yeah, the italics are
ours there, which you could hear it ignoles beautiful rendition
of this, but that's still pretty powerful. And there's one
quotation in particular that anything stands out to Hoffman, who
will stand out to readers of the book. That's still
not the last theory, right, the one some of us

(22:43):
have been waiting for. What if? What if he didn't drown,
or if he didn't get murderized, what if he joined
a community in the area. And that's something that Leonard
Nimoy talks about on in search of do we have
the sound cue for that? We can't Linard de Boy

(23:07):
talks about this and yeah, they don't have proof. But
then there's another piece of video footage that comes from
a National Geographic photographer named Malcolm Kirk filmed this in
the area in nineteen seventy one. It is epic. It's
like hundreds of hundreds of people from these communities and

(23:31):
they're rowing as groups on their boats and they've got
they've got weapons, they're shootings and ceremonial arrows and stuff,
and it's um, I'm not sure of a better word
than epic. It's a lot of people. It's it's a serious,
serious display of power from these communities. And if you

(23:53):
look at the footage just for a second, for some folks,
this this footage alone is like a smoking gun that
proves Rockefeller is alive. I don't know. So we're playing
this footage. Could we describe it for a fellow conspiracy realist. Absolutely,
let's do this. We are seeing a long line of
what looks like boats or like small boats, you know,

(24:16):
where there are people standing up growing the boats as
they're standing. Okay, so they're zooming in now and it's
a still Oh my goodness, is that a white dude
on the boat. It looks like a Caucasian man with
something on his head. He's got a beard. It looks
a lot like Michael Rockefeller. It's only a little bit

(24:39):
of footage, but whoa he like joined Maybe he joined
them and to get away. The implication, that's the implication,
that's the theory. How much further could you go with that?
Not wanting to be you know that silver spoon kind
of you know person. Yeah, that's wild and it makes

(25:02):
a lot of sense if if he could even convince
the people to allow him to be part of it.
You know, could you imagine what it would take. It's
like some dances with wolves right there? Man, I mean,
but that's if the footage is true. But I love
this as a story. Elo. It's incredible. The footage is real.

(25:23):
It's whether or not it's good that the figure is
Michael Rockefeller right right. It's not a deep fake. But
it could be a person with albinism. Maybe. Yeah, they're oh,
that's but the beard thing that they say, like that
they don't wear beards. I mean it, it's it's fascinating
to me. And I'm look, if I was going to
go down that rabbit hole, I would say, what had

(25:46):
Michael Rockefeller at the age of twenty experienced living at
that level of privilege, living within that family, right, Like,
what had he maybe experienced it made him want to
escape it? I don't Yeah, And he was only twenty
three at the time, right, and he was How much

(26:08):
later was his footage taken? This footage was taken in
nineteen seventy one, so it would have been ten years okay,
ten years, so it would have been thirty three. Yeah,
And you know this is a this that checks out
that clocks for the look of this fellow. He looks
to be as early to mid thirties. And living like

(26:30):
that would make a person's body change, you know, I
mean weathered, you know what I mean, just living out
in the elements like that. I mean, what if I'm chilled?
What if? What really happened, guys is the Rockefellers sent
that PI down there, and the PI found Michael and
tried to convince Michael to come back, and he just

(26:52):
said no. And his village, you know, the people in
his village were like, you're not taking this guy. Get
out of here. Here's some scover, come back, this is
our dude. Yeah, here's some skulls. You can take these.
Here's a cover story dead or that could have been
from Michael himself, you know, I mean he's like this

(27:14):
is this is like talk about faking your own death.
I mean, how else the plot would have to be
so elaborate for a person of that stature to be
able to fake their own death. And and you know
what I mean, that's to commit that pseudo side. That's tough.
But I have this vision, you know, I think a
lot of the Curtsy and the Apocalypse now is so cool,

(27:35):
But I think a lot of the Curtsy and heard
of darkness stuff has a lot of problems that stuff.
But that being said, I can't get it out of
my head, this moment of like the guy looking up
from the darkness behind a tree and going there is
no Michael. But remember Michael had this fascination with the

(28:03):
tribe and in particular with the wood carving right people,
and like he he was so personally fascinated with it.
If he did want to become a part of that group,
what if he did did just want to be looked
I am not in any way above you. I want
to be with you at that level makes more sense.
I want to, you know, join in and what do

(28:23):
I need to do? Canno in the rowers, in the
ranks of the rowers. He's not being carried on a
freaking Palin Quinn or whatever the hell those things, you know,
I mean, he's just among them and and and contributing
to this team rowing effort. That's not what a white
god would do, you know, right? And this this goes
like so this is one of the fascinating sticking points

(28:47):
of this story. Again, we who ask you to check
out the footage. It is one person definitely looks different
from the rest, that's fair to say. But who is
that person? And why does there why their appearance? You know,
those are questions that have yet to be answered. There
was no follow up interview with this person. Nobody, Nobody

(29:10):
stopped the boat and said, okay, everybody names and tell
me to tell us what you're about. What's your thing? Was?
Were any one of you once upon a time from
New York? You know what I mean? None of that.
So this is this one moment, this one bright moment.
If Michael Rockefeller was alive today in twenty twenty three,

(29:35):
he would be eighty five years old, and like Henry
Kissinger his birthdays in May. I don't know why I
said that, like that was some big bookend. It's not
just I don't want to I don't want to leave
this yet, you guys, I'm still trying to game it
out because you imagine, imagine you're Nelson Rockefeller. It's nineteen
seventy one. Uh, you know you are a political figure. Now,

(29:59):
Let's say you wanted to get your son back, despite
your son's wishes, so you kidnap him back. What you
what you would have to send a team in to
somehow kidnap him, like get to that area, find him,
get him, take him out of that area, and get
him on a plane and send him home. Imagine what
that scenario could trigger. That would be an international incident,

(30:21):
right because even if they were mercenaries, they were probably
they're probably x you know, US military mercenaries, or you
would hire I don't know, mercenaries within country, mercenaries from
another neighboring country, or if they wanted to be really clever,
hire members of a rival tribe to make it seem

(30:41):
like a legitimate you know, um, what's the word revenge
kidnapping or revenge killing or whatever. There's ways you could
do it. It would just I imagine that you you
would do the calculus of that move and say, well
I can't, like we can't, no doubt. You just gotta
let him be Yeah, yeah, there there. That's the thing

(31:02):
we're all we're imagining. And that's why this became, yeah,
a two part episode, folks, because we wanted to spend
the time on this. Uh. We didn't want to just
blaze through the facts. There's so many threads to pull here,
There's so many rabbit holes to go down, and we
want to know your thoughts. What happened to Michael Rockefeller?

(31:25):
Do you know? Can you tell us? Are you are
you texting each other? Like what do you think? Which
of the theories that that we've explored today do you
think are most likely? And why is there some other
intervening variable or piece of the story that needs to
be addressed in further detail? Let us know? And if

(31:47):
it's not him, who's that white dude on the boat?
I mean that in and of itself, that is just
you know, that is fascinating because that's that guy's got
to have a story. You think it's definitely a white dude.
I do with the way the beard looks, and I
mean just the way it's so stand out, and even
the build is different, the build of the person's body

(32:09):
is different. So why we saved the video for the end? Right, folks,
do please watch this. We're very conscious this an audio podcast,
but yeah, watch the video, right, And le Nol was saying,
tell us, yeah, and get ahold of Savage Harvest if
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ideas and I want to get to I want to

(32:32):
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