March 21, 2014 • 48 mins
What's the difference between a cult and a religion? What are some of history's strangest cults? Are there any secret cults in the modern day? Tune in to learn more.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
From UFOs to ghosts and government cover ups. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to now. Welcome
back to the show. My name is mattan on Ben
and this is stuff they don't want you to know,
(00:21):
as though you didn't hear that in the title earlier.
But that's okay. We just want to make sure you
know where you are because you know, it gets tough
sometimes people get confused. Where am I? What am I?
Where are we going in life? I know it's confusing, right,
There are a lot of questions and people there's no
shortage of people pretending to answer those questions, some of
(00:41):
whom even believe it. And it's funny that we're talking
about this. Let's let's jump right in. One of the
great differences between human beings and other animals is that
human beings, unique among all highly intelligent animals, aim to
have this compulsion to um find out more about life,
(01:07):
to ask what happens when we die? Now we have
seen evidence, of course, that higher order animals are able
to um acknowledge death in some form if a member
of their pure groups dies. Sure you'll see elephants that
more and they're dead. There are also there have been
instances of dolphins that carry their dead babies from long
(01:29):
distances in the water. Yeah, and and I think that's
next some point, because it shows it's not just primates,
it's also citaceans. We also know that ah many mammals
have some sort of understanding of that loss. Dogs famously,
UH have can have difficulties when a human that they
have bonded with has passed away. But according to current science,
(01:52):
there's one thing that only humans can do. Dolphins can't
do it. Elephants, dogs, even crows which are scary smart uh.
And that is contemplate and afterlife, a a entirely abstract world,
whether dystopian or utopian, that exists beyond the mortal plane.
(02:15):
And that is why um. One of human beings. One
of humanity's greatest either discoveries or inventions, depending on how
you look at it, is the idea of religion. Right,
And we haven't officially as humans nailed down what what
exactly happens yet at least we haven't scientifically proven what happens,
(02:35):
So there really any any idea If it strikes personally
with you could be persuasive enough for you to believe it. Yeah,
and we mean literally any idea, because in the absence
of universally agreed quantitative not qualitative proof of of a
(02:58):
life after death, Um, people's opinions can be just up
for up for anything. Sure, no one can really disprove
a lot of this stuff, But we also know that
for a great deal of human history, this these beliefs,
which we will call religions for most of this podcast,
(03:21):
these beliefs, spiritual beliefs, religious beliefs guided the course of
human civilization. Yeah. Sure, what why why would humans come
together and live as a society, Um, if there wasn't
some kind of agreed upon reason to be doing so
other than procreation and the gathering of food. Um. It
(03:45):
seems as though what we've been getting a lot of
people commenting on our on our video, especially the one
we made about how to start a cult, about how
society as a whole possibly was or quite frankly most
likely was kind of the or originated as some kind
of cult. Sure, hunting party, uh, layer begins to acrete
(04:08):
spiritual beliefs, and that could even have happened before Homo sapiens. Um.
This is This is a scary thing for some people,
especially if you consider yourself more of an atheist or
on the atheist side of the spiritual spectrum. We know
that early non Homo sapiens, early Man, like the the
(04:29):
demo recording of Man basically had before the full album
came out, UM already had some beliefs like venerating the dead,
um performing some sort of ritualistic burial or commemoration. Now,
because that stuff happens before the dawn of recorded history,
(04:50):
we don't really know how to uh find the specifics
of whatever their spiritual beliefs were. Um, we've got a
lot of smart people making a lot of smart guesses.
And the reason that we're talking now about the this
ancient history and the fundamental importance and unique ability that
(05:12):
we call spiritual exploration, UM, it's all because you and
I recently did a series on cults. We did and
we found so much stuff it got kind of dark
to write editing. Editing together that and the Curm Case
episode was harrowing experience, to say the least. And you
(05:35):
did a fantastic job on that episode too. If there's
anybody who happens to have not seen that, I think
the title of it is uh, child impersonation or cults
child impersonation in the Czech Republic, and it is entirely
about a very strange cult sometimes called the Ants. And
(05:57):
the way that we like to do this stuff in
these audio podcasts so bars we like to be able
to give a little bit more background in context that
we weren't able to originally in the video just because
of the length of time or because of the tone.
Um So, in this podcast, what you and I are
going to explore is the nature of cults. What what
(06:18):
makes something a cult? How is a cult any different
from a religion? And um some great points that listeners
brought up in the YouTube comments, uh, is it possible
for things that are not spiritual on the on the
surface to also be cults? Which I think is a
great question. Um So, if you, if you'll mind that
(06:40):
I've got a little bit of a definition. Alright, So
we know that the concept of occult um, at least
in academia, dates back to about nineteen thirty two. A
sociologist named Howard P. Becker Uh said that, but he
based it as sort of an expand mention of an
earlier guy's work. A guy named Ernst Trolts. Yes, I
(07:07):
don't know if I made it out of that one
alive t R O E L T S c H
Trols and uh Trolch had this typology where he was separated.
He was trying to separate um church versus sect and
Becker originally said that occult was a small religious group
(07:30):
lacking organization and emphasizing the private nature of personal beliefs.
Now we know that is not the modern definition of
a cult um. The modern definition of occult is um
outside of it exists outside of a predominant religion, right,
and it has uh some notable differences in comparison to
(07:53):
what we call religion proper. Now we know that there
are these other things called sects. And I said that,
so I don't accidentally say, you know, sex but s
E C T s. Uh. These are the products of
religious disagreements. So they still have many of the same
(08:13):
beliefs and uh structures, they just they diverge in the
particulars they've had a schism at some point because of
maybe something. Um. What are some of the examples of that, uh,
great one would be Martin Luther Um saying that people
could correspond directly with the divine rather than going through
(08:37):
any intermediary like some a member of the Catholic Church.
Another earlier example would be um when Christianity began and
people who traditionally followed Judaism uh said that they believed
that Jesus Christ was a by a messenger of the divine.
(09:02):
So this became in a way. It's still carried a
lot of the traditional beliefs, at least for a time,
associated with the earlier belief system, but a cult can
take some of that and does something totally new or
or it will be based upon at least a lot
(09:23):
of the ones that we found were are based on
some kind of writing, some kind of document that kind
of that they take in as their manifesto of sorts
as they're kind of their brick and mortar structure for
what how they're going to base their beliefs upon. And
then they kind of make some changes here and there.
But um, it's pretty fascinating stuff. The one the Holy
(09:43):
Grail movement was really was interesting. The one that was
that we talked about in that Ferme Case episode where
it's it's about the Holy Grail. The entire thing is
based upon this guy's book from I think nineteen seventies
seven around that the German fellow forget his name, but
if you get a chance search the Grail movement, it's
(10:04):
very interesting. Yeah, and that's a that's a good illustration
of how I would say that, Um, the Grail movement
doesn't seem to be as much of a cult, but
I don't have too much information about it. Yeah, sorry,
I don't. Yeah, more of a sect. And I think
that's what you're saying, because the ants in that currum
Case episode are the cults that broke off. And as
(10:28):
as we know, and as uh thank god you pointed
out in the video, the Grail movement is not related.
Disowned disowned them completely, uh successfully sued uh some check
newspaper right by the way, for implying that they were
supporting it. Um, all right, we also know that, uh
(10:50):
from everything you guys are hearing us say, the exact
definition or difference between a cult and religion is a
matter of great debate. You will run to people who
tell you that the Baptist Church is a cult. You
will meet people who assure you that Mormonism as a cult.
You know what I mean? Um, and all our scientology
(11:11):
based listeners or scientology focused listeners will want to hear
us talk about the idea of whether scientology is a religion,
a cult, or none of the above, which it has
been all three depending on who you ask. But we
have a little quick guide that we found from a
cult hotline and clinic that will help us differentiate a
little bit. Right, Yeah, sure, what why don't you tell
(11:33):
us what what a cult is? And then I will
say what a what a religion it, or can at
least from this list. Okay, so like what a cult
would do versus what religion would do? Okay, Um, let's
start with your end. That's a great idea. You start
with the religion will provide the cult alternative. Okay. When
you're getting information from a religion, it's generally offered up
(11:55):
right up front. It's given to you as hey read
about this, let us know if you're interested. And when
you're in a cult or cult like organization, there's deceit
in recruitment, so we're not giving you either all of
the information or the actual truth. In a religion, Um,
generally freedom of thought is offered up and members have
(12:17):
a say in what goes on a lot of times.
Not in occult we are totalitarian, my way or the
highway to Hell. Generally, religions will promote a family, a
family unit of some sort. Um. Usually it will have
very rigid structures of what that family unit unit can
or cannot be. But they still promote a family unit.
(12:40):
Destroy the family unit in your cult. The only unit
is the cult. I'm getting a little dramatic, so and feeling.
I've had a lot of coffee. Religions tend to work
within a society, so they'll go out and do work
inside a community. Um, do some volunteering or donation. Okay, cool,
(13:00):
So like you could have your own life in larger
society in a religion not an occult isolate the members,
no outsiders, one of us. A religion is generally open
to the community. So it will it will bring, it
will take anyone who comes in who is interested. Um,
and it just has open arms. Let's see, right, Which
(13:24):
is why, for instance, at least in the United States,
you can generally, as long as you are respectful of
the of the traditions, you can generally in attend any church, mosque, synagogue,
Christian reading room, or what have you. Um, A Hindu
or Buddhist temple. Um, as long as you're not a
(13:45):
jerk about it. But not in cults. You've got to
keep those nonbelievers out until they've been carefully vetted because
they might come up the works. They might come up
the works. A religion is interested in promoting potential. Now,
what is at mean, ben If it's promoting potential, so
it wants you to grow individually, yes, and and because
(14:08):
it wants to see the entire religion grow, but it
also wants to see the community grow. Well, you know
that's really taking away from the development of the cult,
which is the primary focus of a cult. And that's
why a cult will limit the development of an individual,
destroy the ego, as they would say. So in a religion,
while there are guidelines, members are not systematically controlled, they're
(14:30):
not individually controlled. Okay, So um, you know certain days
might be neatless or certain holidays have requirements you need
to participate in, but you are allowed to have a
mind of your own. Yes, not a cult where mind
control techniques are prevalent and practiced. Often in religion, it's
(14:54):
generally promoted that you should really think hard about your
decision to take a commitment in this re religion, well,
to be saved or blessed in some way, or take
a right of passage in this religion. They really want
you to contemplate it, think about it, make sure it's
the right decision for you. Oh right? Like how um,
quite a few religions require you to have a certain
(15:16):
period of study before you can, you know, like if
you convert to a religion, um. Not in cults, man,
that's a good news. Uh. Commitment is encouraged during the
recruitment process. So you want to learn more, come on,
just join just join him. We'll tell you, just give
us one more payment and then you can learn a
little bit more and you'll be committed. Okay, Now this
(15:38):
one I might I'm have a little bit of contention with.
But on our list it says that in a religion,
people are free to speak out against the tenets of
a religion. Um. And I I mean that's true to
a point, to a point. But if you're inside the religion,
you may have some more problems there which might lead
(15:59):
to say a skiss them and an offshoot and perhaps
a cult. Ah. Yes, And in a cult, the any
any criticism is often met with very serious threats. So
these could be legal action, These could be uh, you know,
isolation even further from your new cult family. Uh, physical
(16:21):
punishments even Um, it can be very messy, very quickly.
I have another point of contention here in this list,
but that's okay. Yeah, in a religion, clergy are expected
generally to be responsible for their words and actions. That
sounds nice, that's like a theoretically, yeah, it sounds very nice.
As we have seen with certain massive institutions that may
(16:44):
or may not be true. Right, And in a cult,
the leader and the followers consider the leader to be
above reproach, cannot be criticized. So what what are some
great examples of this? While we know that Manson or
Jones would never have been criticized by a member of
their cult, we know that um, for a time, uh
(17:07):
Kim Jong il was not um legally not be able
to be criticized. There's a there's a weird argument here,
which is different. I'm not saying that North Korea is
a cult country, um, anymore than I'm saying that Thailand
is a cult country. But there's a there's a monarchical
fallacy here because in Middle Eastern countries and in Thailand, Um,
(17:32):
any sort of criticism of the royal family, I can
can get you in prison very quickly at the very least. Um,
so that's kind of cultish, which goes to another thing.
Questioning the leader or the basic outline of the cult
is never allowed. So if you you know, if you say,
hey guys, even if it's something as small as hey, guys,
(17:55):
I really like our eight hour rainwashing sessions. But I
was thinking maybe we could use a CD instead of
a VHS tape so we don't have to keep stopping
to rewind it. Um, then you would get in a
lot of trouble, it would seem so yeah. Uh. So
now that we know some of the differences between a
cult and a religion, will talk a little bit about
(18:18):
some of the history, which I think is fascinating here. Um.
Something from the Baltimore Sun, uh that we mentioned a
little bit before is that, um, something can change from
a cult to a religion over time. Right. Oh yeah,
and again it can splinter the opposite way as well.
(18:38):
So early Christianity, when it was first originating, it was
considered a cult because you had, you know, you had
certain groups of people, like you said, who are from
UH who were Jewish or Roman at the time, UM,
who then started following this one guy and this one
(18:59):
guy's message, and you know, it's an interesting comparison. I'd
like to I haven't read much up on this, but
I'd like to see someone's argument for Jesus as a
cult leader. I'd be fascinated to read that it just
if you looked. And I don't not saying that he was,
but just it would be an interesting angle to look
(19:20):
at it. Because they have a um uh theology that
did a couple of things. They said this UH, this
current stat status quo is um not the way that
humans are supposed to be. So it's kind of heretical,
and it confuses some of the earlier religions, the Jewish
(19:42):
religion and the Roman religion at the time, where some
of the predominant belief structures and while borrowing heavily from
a lot of those from Roman society from Jewish tradition,
UH Christianity itself was something that was novel and and
of course uh Islam was also considered a cult by
(20:05):
medieval Christians much later, who would have never UM called
their religion occult. But the new guy on the street
was was the same thing, and it's because some of
the same stuff. You know, Islam has Jesus has the
most quoted prophet in the Quran, uh and the there
(20:25):
there's so much commonality in the Abramatic religions. But still
they called it a cult. So this leads, Uh, this
leads to an interesting idea. What if the only real
difference between a cult and a religion is the length
of time that a spiritual organization is active. I think
(20:45):
that's a great point. That's an absolutely great point, because
as soon as the new guy comes along, that's weird
and different, that's a cult. And there's there's a great
argument here that we broke down from this article in
the Sun and uh, there there are a couple reasons
why this is a is kind of a good metric
or I don't know, what do you think is a
fair amount of time to transition, Well, it needs to
(21:10):
be one where a child can grow up inside this
belief structure. Okay, long enough to be old enough as
old at least as the parent was to and reproducing
and then and then continue right so that so that
person would have to Yeah, they're reproduction would be necessary.
You can't just bring people in. It's like one so
(21:33):
three generations total, maybe, yeah, that would be about right.
So of what's that a hundred years are a little less,
a little more, a little more maybe yeah? Um well,
I guess depends on when they have kids, right, when
they die? Yeah? Um? Okay, that all right. I think
that's very smart. And it has to function a couple
of ways, because already there will be people asking us
(21:54):
the writing emails, asking uh, well, what about a cult
that functions in secret hundreds of years. That's a little
bit different. We're talking about things that function in the
open um. So one of the most one of the
biggest points is a group that has survived over generations
cannot have the sort of self destructive or antisocial behavior
(22:16):
that occurs in cults, at least not openly. Right. You
can't kill your breeding population. You can't render them, uh
sterile one way or the other. Um. So, also can't
kill a lot of them as suicide, right, yeah, no
mass suicide. Also, it has to it has to play
(22:36):
nice with the current whomever the current government or state is.
So that means that you can't break laws like abuse laws. Um,
which is one way that groups are who later turned
out to be cults are often caught, you know. Um,
and it could be some dark stuff. It could be
domestic abuse, it could be um fraud, you know, taking
(22:58):
making your followers give up their financial assets to you,
or of course, in some cases it can be sexual abuse.
It's a that's a great point about functioning inside the
society and not making the rulers of the land you
occupy angry at you so. And I think that has
a lot to do with morality and why religion and
religious beliefs. Uh, the morality of a people is often
(23:21):
ascribed to that. Ah, that's such a good point. Yeah,
it's such a good point because um, one thing that
it seems religions tend to do is over time have
a morality which is is sort of a mirror of
the society in which they operate, or is tolerated by
(23:42):
that society. Sure so, um, you know, so occult that
argues something like people who are not in our religion
are not really human. Um, then that is not gonna
that morality is not going to jibe when the authorities
will always be under suspice. But if you have um
(24:02):
a moral argument which is something like, uh, people should
try to be good, which is when you boil it down.
That's that's one of the most basic tenants of any
sort of spiritual belief structure. And for thousands of years,
people have just been fighting over the definitions of good
and people. And UM, it's sad to say, I hope
(24:26):
that uh, the the aliens land they're not just disgusted
with us on that point, but yeah, pretty sure they will.
But then another thing they can uh to the point
about kids. Uh, these cults are excuse me, religions will
also grow institutions, so they'll have um, nonprofit organizations, they'll
(24:47):
take care of the sick and the elderly and the dispossessed.
They'll have systems to educate others, to basically bring people
up in these beliefs. So that again, that's the thing
we're talking about earlier. You can't let it die, so
you have to make sure the young people get the
message and then continue forward. And this sounds like a
(25:10):
recipe for something that's not just able to survive in
in a community where not everyone has that religion, but
it sounds like people of this religion or obeying these
kind of approaches could become really valuable to the larger society.
You know what, what are we talking We're talking about stable,
(25:31):
generation spanning, self sustaining organization that wants to help people. Um.
It sounds like a great thing. Sounds like a great thing,
and sometimes in history it has been. Of course, part
of being one of the guiding principles of human history
means that there is a lot of stuff on both
the pro and the con side. Millions of people have
(25:53):
been saved by various religions, and millions upon millions have
been murdered, no other way around it. Um, all right,
but it's time now to talk about some cults. We've
talked about the difference we can cults from religions, and
now it's time talking about cults. But before we do,
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(26:13):
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well that was um, that was interesting. Yeah, I can't
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(28:49):
a different calendar. Uh So now it's time to talk
about some out and out cults. Things are universally called
cults by everybody except for the people there. All right, well,
let's get started. This is one that we found that's
m hmm, a little weird. Let's just go into it.
(29:10):
It's called the Creativity Movement, formally the World Church of
the Creator. Now, this is a white separatist organization and
it advocates the whites only religion creativity. Wait, wait, wait, wait,
the name of the this bacist religion is creativity. Yes,
that is like the most uncreative name. But it's but
(29:34):
it's also so universal, although it's not at all universal.
It's whites only. Um, so it was. It was also
kind of a descriptive phrase that was used by uh,
this guy named Ben Clawson. I think that's how you
say it. It's like one of the leaders, I guess, yes,
and uh, it included all adherents of the religion. And basically,
the use of the term Creator does not it doesn't
(29:56):
refer to any kind of deity. There's no God. No,
it's to you. It's to the person, uh, the self
and white people. Um. But anyway, despite the former use
of the word of church and its name, the movement
is definitely atheistic, there's no belief in god. Huh. Okay,
(30:17):
Now this is the one that started in three but
the founder, Ben Klassen, died right in yes, yeah, okay,
so you only had twenty years there to run the thing.
And it's so it's so strange to me. Then the
you know, we're going to find of course that there
that racism um is prevalent in a lot of fringe cults. Um.
(30:43):
You know, racist organization doesn't necessarily consider itself also a
spiritual organization, but a lot of spiritual groups have no
problem with racism and in fact feel very justified about it.
And you know, sadly, although people might like to think
this is a new, newer kind of belief, that's more
(31:04):
and more in the fringes, it's been around since religions.
Racism and religion have been uh, thick as thieves for
a lot of human history. Um. I wanted to talk
about one that I really like, the Prince Philip movement
or a cargo cult. Now this is something that chuck
(31:25):
from stuff. You should know and I are both fascinated by.
I don't want to see we're big fans of it.
So this is an island called Tana or Tanna and
Vanuatu or vanatu and this and this uh van wattu
is aside from being something that will mispronounce regularly. Uh.
(31:46):
This is a small island nation. And during the sometime
probably in the fifties or sixties, having received air drops
from lanes that were flying over the islanders who were rural,
began what was called a cargo cult. So they believe,
(32:08):
at least as one try Bontana believes that Prince Philip
is a divine creature. You mean the Duke of Edinburgh, Yes,
the Duke of Edinburgh. Uh, and is the son of
a son and brother. So it's incestuous, which is okay
if you're if you're a deity. Um the son and
brother of the legendary John from now. I think have
(32:32):
we talked about cargo cults on the show before. We've
mentioned it a couple of times. We did the Sentinel Island,
that's right, Yeah, so you can learn some amazing stuff
about this. Uh. The the Royal couple didn't help at
all because in nineteen seventy four they visited the island,
(32:53):
which I just think is um elitist and kind of
not cool. I guess you could say it's diplomacy, but
I think it's tremendously condescending on the part of the
Duke of Edinburgh. But the but I think maybe his
intentions are good because he was made when he found
out about this religion. He's visited and exchanged gifts with
(33:16):
the leaders. Now, this cargo when it was originally dropped,
and not to go too far into the story, was
was amazing. And after learning of the uh, learning more
about John From and the West, the mystical understanding these
people have, which was often exploited or presented with ridicule
(33:37):
um resulted in them building like fake in a fake
airport essentially fake airway um and calling for the return
of John From for the cargo to bring more of
these amazing gifts, which if you think about it had
to be like space age may as well be magic.
They hadn't seen him before. But uh, that is that
is a story for another day. Here's the kind of one.
(34:00):
More so, there's something called new abbyon is um. And
this is something that you pointed out to me that
I had never heard of. This is an umbrella term
that refers to these doctrines and teachings of this guy
named Dwight York and Uh. It originated as as a
black Muslim group and I think it's in New York
(34:23):
right in the nineteen seventies. But eventually, well I'm kind
of skipping ahead of here, but eventually I found out
that they had headquarters in Georgia. Yeah, Putnam County, right, Yeah,
really interesting where there was a pyramid structure. And it's
really fascinating. You can you can search for New abby
and is that what? Just what you would search for
(34:44):
New Abbianism and you can find a picture. It's really interesting. Yeah.
The uh. And it's based on a bunch of different
things that Dwight York encountered in his time, like Freemasonry,
Shriner's Um, revisionist Christianity, course, Islam uh, A couple of
other things would probably be called cults uh, some ancient
(35:06):
astronaut conspiracy theories. UM. And this pretty much was centered
just on Dwight York by far. This leader, alpha male
of this group UM had some interesting beliefs, didn't they.
Oh yeah, we've gotta we've got a list here. You
wanna let's go back and forth. Okay. Number one, it
is important to bury the after birth, so that Satan
(35:27):
does not use it to make a duplicate of the
recently born child. Big problem in Putnam, I think, uh
number two, some aborted fetuses survived their abortions to live
in the sewers, where they would be gathered and organized
to take over the world. People were once perfectly symmetrical
and embedextrous, but then a meteorite struck Earth untilted this
(35:48):
its axis, causing handedness and shifting the heart off center
in the chest. Here's one of my favorites, Matt. Each
of us has seven clones living in different parts of
the world. Well obviously, I mean, I don't even know
if you're Matt prime or Matt. Yeah. Uh. Women have
(36:08):
existed for many generations before they invented men through genetic manipulation.
Thanks guys, I mean women. Uh. And then there's the
idea that Homo sapiens modern man as a result of
cloning experiments done on Mars using Homo erectus. That's crazy,
you know, it's crazier. What's crazier? Nicola Tesla came from Venus? Uh?
(36:30):
Is that crazy? You know? For everybody listening, Matt, just
that a mic drop. Um. Another one is that the
Illuminati of nurtured to Child, who was the son of Satan,
born on the sixth of June in ninety six at
the Dakota House on Second seventy two Street in New York,
born to Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis and the Rothchild Kennedy families.
(36:53):
The Pope was there, he performed necromantic ceremonies. Uh. Child
was raised by Nixon. Lives in Europe. Now it's you've
gotta you've gotta check out d White or to see
some of the um some of the legal trouble the
guy has been in and he's got numerous sexual abuse
charges amongst other charges of fraud. There is an argument
(37:16):
that people have had, which is, you know, was he
just accused of this to prevent his movement from becoming
self sustaining or a threat to a status quo? Uh? Well,
here's what if that last story is true? And just
just going from my invisibles mind, uh, imagining some of
the more crazy things. But what if what if that
(37:37):
story right there is true and it's so ridiculous that
no one would ever believe it, and that one guy
knew and he wanted to spread the word. I would
be surprised because there would be a lot more focused
and effective ways to spread the word about that. But
you know what, maybe we don't know. Maybe the Antichrist
really is alive right now, hooked to a computer called
(37:59):
the East three M. I would be terrible and wonderful
just knowing that it was true. Yeah, um, but here
here's our question. Now. Of course, since uh York's incarceration,
quite a few of his followers fell by the wayside.
He still does have a few, and these followers, um
(38:20):
maintain some of his writings and some of his recordings. Um.
And of course, with the stuff we're saying, you know,
when we just read that list, we're treating in a
lighthearted manner. But let's keep in mind that a lot
of established quote unquote established religions which have been around
for more than a century have beliefs that might sound
(38:40):
equally strange when you just list them the way that
we did. Yeah, I'm sorry, I must apologize for the
way I did that list. But whatever, I don't even
know if this is you or if this is one
of your seven clones ursch sorry, church Tertiary, well, Tertiary,
if I can just call you three um, we've we've
(39:02):
reached the point where usually in our podcast we talk
about where to go to learn more. UM, I have
a little bit of a of a of a twist
on this. If you're into it, Yeah, I'm totally into it.
Let's talk about how to get somebody help if they're
in a cult, because we know that this this can
be a heartbreaking thing, you know, especially so a lot
(39:23):
of people find themselves in a situation where maybe their
child is just old enough to be uh their own
legal guardian, but young enough or isolated enough that they
fall into a clearly unsafe situation like a cult. UM.
So we found a couple of things from some cult
helplines that we can advise you with. One of the
(39:46):
first things that if you're talking to a loved member
who is in a cult, be careful not to straight
up criticize the group or the member, because remember that
if it's a cult, they're going to try to tear
down this person's ego, which means that they have no privacy.
They will have to say what you said about the
cult or the leader, and then this will likely be used.
(40:10):
If the leader knows anything what's going on, this will
likely be used as a reason to cut you off
from their life, which makes it much harder. And you
have to keep in mind that this group is purposefully
trying to isolate this person, your loved one, So you
have to remember to initiate communication as much as you
possibly can with them. Um, but you have to be really,
really careful not to be judgmental when you're talking to
(40:32):
this person Socratic method, Yes, you can't because that will
send them directly in the opposite direction. Oh, another one
that's pretty important here. Uh, just some housekeeping which applies
to any organization, in my opinion, don't give original documents
to anyone. No original birth certificates, no original copies of
(40:54):
wills or anything like that. And please God, no titles,
no deeds to any physical possession. It will not be
yours for long. Do not, under any circumstances, allow yourself
to be persuaded by quote professionals to spend lots of
money on some kind of treatment or some kind of
(41:14):
legal action until you've verified the credentials of that person,
not only but also the qualifications that they have for
handling this problem. Right. Yeah, because it's there's there's something
where it verges into con territory where someone says, well,
you have this problem that I can solve for you
because of my vast knowledge, just like that doctor who
(41:36):
may or may not have existed in the Kuram case. Um. Next,
don't feel guilty, don't feel alone. These this kind of
stuff is distressingly common, and it can it can happen
to anybody's family. It doesn't mean that your family is
bad if one of your family members is suckered in
by occult Yeah, it's it's. It is very important to
(41:58):
remember that there are probably a lot of other people
going through very similar situation, and there are people you
can talk to. There's um you know, there is a
cult hotline and a cult help clinic. There's all kinds
of family support groups that meet monthly usually or sometimes
even more frequently. Yeah, and you can find you can
find some help, likely in an area relatively near to you.
(42:23):
The Internet is your friend in this regard, especially if
you're in like an isolated community, which some people might be. UM.
Get online, call a helpline. If if there's a situation
where you feel trapped and you think that you are
in a cult um, then you can call you You
legally can call nine one one and say that you
(42:46):
are being held against your will. Um. It is a
crime to hold somebody against their will without you know,
legal steps taken to do so. So unless they have
power of attorney over you, you know, um, which again
you should never agree to. Uh. Then you your best bet,
(43:06):
although it can be very difficult, is to go outside
of this group. The if if there's somebody who's exploiting
you an occult um or exploiting one of your loved ones,
then they're not going to give up, which means that
you should research the group, figure out everything about what
happens so you can know what's going on with this
person in your life. And then we go to the
(43:28):
most important thing to remember, right Matt, do not give up.
Remember that this person, your loved one, is probably a
product of either your upbringing or your friendship. Um. And
it's really hard to break those bonds. Even if if
the group has attempted to break those bonds, Um, there
(43:48):
is something there that remains, and you have you have
some sway over this person that you love, who probably
loves you back. So yeah, just you know, if you
really believe that it's a scary, dangerous situation, do not
give up, and let me add something else here, Matt,
that I think you and I have neglected to mention earlier.
(44:09):
It's very important just because let's say you have a
child or a friend, or a sibling or a parent
or whatever who believes in something that you don't agree with.
Just because they believe in that does not necessarily mean
they're in a cult. So you have to be very
very careful, um too, look at the organization as well
(44:33):
before you decide that something's a cult, because I think
it's it's deceptively easy. It's a bit of a slippery
slope to start with. Well, I don't like it, so
let me find things to dislike, you know, just like
the old Louis c Ca bit where he says, you know,
if you don't like something, if you don't like a person,
and everything they do makes them seem like a jerk.
You know, they look at that tool eating ice cream.
(44:57):
Luis came in Insights on the Planet right now. Yeah,
he'd probably be a pretty good cult D programmer, which
we didn't even talk about because sometimes it turns out
that's a scam. Yeah, But I think, Matt, now is
the time for us to finally do some listener mail right.
Oh yes, and we've got a great one. This comes
(45:20):
from Kellison D and just I wanna say here. Kellison
says that we can talk about or quote any part
of this email in the email. So cool, Kellson, thanks
for writing in. Kelson says, I didn't check the date
on the video, so I don't know if I'm too late.
But at the end of your cult video, which I loved,
you asked about what underground basis you should cover in
(45:42):
future videos. I was raised Mormon, and that's why I
loved the cult video so much. Interesting the Mormons have
not secretly by any means, and underground vault that supposedly
holds the largest genealogy library in the world. I've never
been to it, but I'm told that tours are offered
maybe they still are, and that it's bomb proof and
(46:04):
they have to take you in a golf cart a
mile deep into the earth. Granted more specifically, and the
Mormon's material of choice for though the granted is the
Mormon's material choice for all edifices. I don't know if
there's anything fishy here, but it's certainly weird. What do
you think then? Uh? You know it is true that
the Church Lad Day Saints is a world leader in
(46:26):
genealogy UM and recordings. As far as the specific information
about the underground facility, I know it's there. I wish
an you more. I would love to check it out. UM.
And it's very interesting to read this email. What I
think we should do is start looking into this, uh
(46:48):
in some more detail. I mean, it's it's fascinating. I
think it's a great idea. Actually, if I had the
funds to put anything deep underground in grant it, if
that I thought were special, man, I'd do that. Yeah,
you put genealogy records, I'd put everything down there. You
would be like an underground bunker hoarder. Oh yeah, dude.
Anything I thought was important for humanity that wasn't perishable
(47:10):
going in my granite bunker. All right, Well we'll build
it one brick at a time. Man. One thing, just
want to say thanks again to Kelson for writing in
and letting us read your email. Yeah, man, thank you
so much. And if for everybody else who's wondering, hey,
how can I get a shout out on the podcast
which Dick Kelson asked for. That Kelson didn't ask for
a shout out. But guess what you got one? You
(47:33):
got one? Oh, I don't know, Kellison. I'm really sorry.
I don't know. Uh. Kellison will write in to correct us.
But that was a fantastic piece of listener mail. We
do appreciate your time writing in. You can also talk
to us. We're lousy all over the internet. You can
find us on Facebook, you can find us on Twitter.
We're conspiracy stuff at both of those. We've got a website.
(47:55):
Oh but then I'm gonna go update as we speak.
It's stuff they don't want you to know dot com.
It's a little bit long to type in, but the
journey is worth it, my friends. And if you want
your listener mail read on the air, if you want
to shout out on the air, then it's very very
very simple to do. So all you have to do
is send us an email directly with a good story,
(48:16):
a topic, suggestion, some feedback. We love it all man.
Our email address is conspiracy at Discovery dot com. From
more on this topic, another unexplained phenomenon, visit test tube
dot com slash conspiracy stuff. You can also get in
touch on Twitter at the handle at conspiracy stuff.
From UFOs to ghosts and government cover ups. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to now. Welcome
back to the show. My name is mattan on Ben
and this is stuff they don't want you to know,
(00:21):
as though you didn't hear that in the title earlier.
But that's okay. We just want to make sure you
know where you are because you know, it gets tough
sometimes people get confused. Where am I? What am I?
Where are we going in life? I know it's confusing, right,
There are a lot of questions and people there's no
shortage of people pretending to answer those questions, some of
(00:41):
whom even believe it. And it's funny that we're talking
about this. Let's let's jump right in. One of the
great differences between human beings and other animals is that
human beings, unique among all highly intelligent animals, aim to
have this compulsion to um find out more about life,
(01:07):
to ask what happens when we die? Now we have
seen evidence, of course, that higher order animals are able
to um acknowledge death in some form if a member
of their pure groups dies. Sure you'll see elephants that
more and they're dead. There are also there have been
instances of dolphins that carry their dead babies from long
(01:29):
distances in the water. Yeah, and and I think that's
next some point, because it shows it's not just primates,
it's also citaceans. We also know that ah many mammals
have some sort of understanding of that loss. Dogs famously,
UH have can have difficulties when a human that they
have bonded with has passed away. But according to current science,
(01:52):
there's one thing that only humans can do. Dolphins can't
do it. Elephants, dogs, even crows which are scary smart uh.
And that is contemplate and afterlife, a a entirely abstract world,
whether dystopian or utopian, that exists beyond the mortal plane.
(02:15):
And that is why um. One of human beings. One
of humanity's greatest either discoveries or inventions, depending on how
you look at it, is the idea of religion. Right,
And we haven't officially as humans nailed down what what
exactly happens yet at least we haven't scientifically proven what happens,
(02:35):
So there really any any idea If it strikes personally
with you could be persuasive enough for you to believe it. Yeah,
and we mean literally any idea, because in the absence
of universally agreed quantitative not qualitative proof of of a
(02:58):
life after death, Um, people's opinions can be just up
for up for anything. Sure, no one can really disprove
a lot of this stuff, But we also know that
for a great deal of human history, this these beliefs,
which we will call religions for most of this podcast,
(03:21):
these beliefs, spiritual beliefs, religious beliefs guided the course of
human civilization. Yeah. Sure, what why why would humans come
together and live as a society, Um, if there wasn't
some kind of agreed upon reason to be doing so
other than procreation and the gathering of food. Um. It
(03:45):
seems as though what we've been getting a lot of
people commenting on our on our video, especially the one
we made about how to start a cult, about how
society as a whole possibly was or quite frankly most
likely was kind of the or originated as some kind
of cult. Sure, hunting party, uh, layer begins to acrete
(04:08):
spiritual beliefs, and that could even have happened before Homo sapiens. Um.
This is This is a scary thing for some people,
especially if you consider yourself more of an atheist or
on the atheist side of the spiritual spectrum. We know
that early non Homo sapiens, early Man, like the the
(04:29):
demo recording of Man basically had before the full album
came out, UM already had some beliefs like venerating the dead,
um performing some sort of ritualistic burial or commemoration. Now,
because that stuff happens before the dawn of recorded history,
(04:50):
we don't really know how to uh find the specifics
of whatever their spiritual beliefs were. Um, we've got a
lot of smart people making a lot of smart guesses.
And the reason that we're talking now about the this
ancient history and the fundamental importance and unique ability that
(05:12):
we call spiritual exploration, UM, it's all because you and
I recently did a series on cults. We did and
we found so much stuff it got kind of dark
to write editing. Editing together that and the Curm Case
episode was harrowing experience, to say the least. And you
(05:35):
did a fantastic job on that episode too. If there's
anybody who happens to have not seen that, I think
the title of it is uh, child impersonation or cults
child impersonation in the Czech Republic, and it is entirely
about a very strange cult sometimes called the Ants. And
(05:57):
the way that we like to do this stuff in
these audio podcasts so bars we like to be able
to give a little bit more background in context that
we weren't able to originally in the video just because
of the length of time or because of the tone.
Um So, in this podcast, what you and I are
going to explore is the nature of cults. What what
(06:18):
makes something a cult? How is a cult any different
from a religion? And um some great points that listeners
brought up in the YouTube comments, uh, is it possible
for things that are not spiritual on the on the
surface to also be cults? Which I think is a
great question. Um So, if you, if you'll mind that
(06:40):
I've got a little bit of a definition. Alright, So
we know that the concept of occult um, at least
in academia, dates back to about nineteen thirty two. A
sociologist named Howard P. Becker Uh said that, but he
based it as sort of an expand mention of an
earlier guy's work. A guy named Ernst Trolts. Yes, I
(07:07):
don't know if I made it out of that one
alive t R O E L T S c H
Trols and uh Trolch had this typology where he was separated.
He was trying to separate um church versus sect and
Becker originally said that occult was a small religious group
(07:30):
lacking organization and emphasizing the private nature of personal beliefs.
Now we know that is not the modern definition of
a cult um. The modern definition of occult is um
outside of it exists outside of a predominant religion, right,
and it has uh some notable differences in comparison to
(07:53):
what we call religion proper. Now we know that there
are these other things called sects. And I said that,
so I don't accidentally say, you know, sex but s
E C T s. Uh. These are the products of
religious disagreements. So they still have many of the same
(08:13):
beliefs and uh structures, they just they diverge in the
particulars they've had a schism at some point because of
maybe something. Um. What are some of the examples of that, uh,
great one would be Martin Luther Um saying that people
could correspond directly with the divine rather than going through
(08:37):
any intermediary like some a member of the Catholic Church.
Another earlier example would be um when Christianity began and
people who traditionally followed Judaism uh said that they believed
that Jesus Christ was a by a messenger of the divine.
(09:02):
So this became in a way. It's still carried a
lot of the traditional beliefs, at least for a time,
associated with the earlier belief system, but a cult can
take some of that and does something totally new or
or it will be based upon at least a lot
(09:23):
of the ones that we found were are based on
some kind of writing, some kind of document that kind
of that they take in as their manifesto of sorts
as they're kind of their brick and mortar structure for
what how they're going to base their beliefs upon. And
then they kind of make some changes here and there.
But um, it's pretty fascinating stuff. The one the Holy
(09:43):
Grail movement was really was interesting. The one that was
that we talked about in that Ferme Case episode where
it's it's about the Holy Grail. The entire thing is
based upon this guy's book from I think nineteen seventies
seven around that the German fellow forget his name, but
if you get a chance search the Grail movement, it's
(10:04):
very interesting. Yeah, and that's a that's a good illustration
of how I would say that, Um, the Grail movement
doesn't seem to be as much of a cult, but
I don't have too much information about it. Yeah, sorry,
I don't. Yeah, more of a sect. And I think
that's what you're saying, because the ants in that currum
Case episode are the cults that broke off. And as
(10:28):
as we know, and as uh thank god you pointed
out in the video, the Grail movement is not related.
Disowned disowned them completely, uh successfully sued uh some check
newspaper right by the way, for implying that they were
supporting it. Um, all right, we also know that, uh
(10:50):
from everything you guys are hearing us say, the exact
definition or difference between a cult and religion is a
matter of great debate. You will run to people who
tell you that the Baptist Church is a cult. You
will meet people who assure you that Mormonism as a cult.
You know what I mean? Um, and all our scientology
(11:11):
based listeners or scientology focused listeners will want to hear
us talk about the idea of whether scientology is a religion,
a cult, or none of the above, which it has
been all three depending on who you ask. But we
have a little quick guide that we found from a
cult hotline and clinic that will help us differentiate a
little bit. Right, Yeah, sure, what why don't you tell
(11:33):
us what what a cult is? And then I will
say what a what a religion it, or can at
least from this list. Okay, so like what a cult
would do versus what religion would do? Okay, Um, let's
start with your end. That's a great idea. You start
with the religion will provide the cult alternative. Okay. When
you're getting information from a religion, it's generally offered up
(11:55):
right up front. It's given to you as hey read
about this, let us know if you're interested. And when
you're in a cult or cult like organization, there's deceit
in recruitment, so we're not giving you either all of
the information or the actual truth. In a religion, Um,
generally freedom of thought is offered up and members have
(12:17):
a say in what goes on a lot of times.
Not in occult we are totalitarian, my way or the
highway to Hell. Generally, religions will promote a family, a
family unit of some sort. Um. Usually it will have
very rigid structures of what that family unit unit can
or cannot be. But they still promote a family unit.
(12:40):
Destroy the family unit in your cult. The only unit
is the cult. I'm getting a little dramatic, so and feeling.
I've had a lot of coffee. Religions tend to work
within a society, so they'll go out and do work
inside a community. Um, do some volunteering or donation. Okay, cool,
(13:00):
So like you could have your own life in larger
society in a religion not an occult isolate the members,
no outsiders, one of us. A religion is generally open
to the community. So it will it will bring, it
will take anyone who comes in who is interested. Um,
and it just has open arms. Let's see, right, Which
(13:24):
is why, for instance, at least in the United States,
you can generally, as long as you are respectful of
the of the traditions, you can generally in attend any church, mosque, synagogue,
Christian reading room, or what have you. Um, A Hindu
or Buddhist temple. Um, as long as you're not a
(13:45):
jerk about it. But not in cults. You've got to
keep those nonbelievers out until they've been carefully vetted because
they might come up the works. They might come up
the works. A religion is interested in promoting potential. Now,
what is at mean, ben If it's promoting potential, so
it wants you to grow individually, yes, and and because
(14:08):
it wants to see the entire religion grow, but it
also wants to see the community grow. Well, you know
that's really taking away from the development of the cult,
which is the primary focus of a cult. And that's
why a cult will limit the development of an individual,
destroy the ego, as they would say. So in a religion,
while there are guidelines, members are not systematically controlled, they're
(14:30):
not individually controlled. Okay, So um, you know certain days
might be neatless or certain holidays have requirements you need
to participate in, but you are allowed to have a
mind of your own. Yes, not a cult where mind
control techniques are prevalent and practiced. Often in religion, it's
(14:54):
generally promoted that you should really think hard about your
decision to take a commitment in this re religion, well,
to be saved or blessed in some way, or take
a right of passage in this religion. They really want
you to contemplate it, think about it, make sure it's
the right decision for you. Oh right? Like how um,
quite a few religions require you to have a certain
(15:16):
period of study before you can, you know, like if
you convert to a religion, um. Not in cults, man,
that's a good news. Uh. Commitment is encouraged during the
recruitment process. So you want to learn more, come on,
just join just join him. We'll tell you, just give
us one more payment and then you can learn a
little bit more and you'll be committed. Okay, Now this
(15:38):
one I might I'm have a little bit of contention with.
But on our list it says that in a religion,
people are free to speak out against the tenets of
a religion. Um. And I I mean that's true to
a point, to a point. But if you're inside the religion,
you may have some more problems there which might lead
(15:59):
to say a skiss them and an offshoot and perhaps
a cult. Ah. Yes, And in a cult, the any
any criticism is often met with very serious threats. So
these could be legal action, These could be uh, you know,
isolation even further from your new cult family. Uh, physical
(16:21):
punishments even Um, it can be very messy, very quickly.
I have another point of contention here in this list,
but that's okay. Yeah, in a religion, clergy are expected
generally to be responsible for their words and actions. That
sounds nice, that's like a theoretically, yeah, it sounds very nice.
As we have seen with certain massive institutions that may
(16:44):
or may not be true. Right, And in a cult,
the leader and the followers consider the leader to be
above reproach, cannot be criticized. So what what are some
great examples of this? While we know that Manson or
Jones would never have been criticized by a member of
their cult, we know that um, for a time, uh
(17:07):
Kim Jong il was not um legally not be able
to be criticized. There's a there's a weird argument here,
which is different. I'm not saying that North Korea is
a cult country, um, anymore than I'm saying that Thailand
is a cult country. But there's a there's a monarchical
fallacy here because in Middle Eastern countries and in Thailand, Um,
(17:32):
any sort of criticism of the royal family, I can
can get you in prison very quickly at the very least. Um,
so that's kind of cultish, which goes to another thing.
Questioning the leader or the basic outline of the cult
is never allowed. So if you you know, if you say,
hey guys, even if it's something as small as hey, guys,
(17:55):
I really like our eight hour rainwashing sessions. But I
was thinking maybe we could use a CD instead of
a VHS tape so we don't have to keep stopping
to rewind it. Um, then you would get in a
lot of trouble, it would seem so yeah. Uh. So
now that we know some of the differences between a
cult and a religion, will talk a little bit about
(18:18):
some of the history, which I think is fascinating here. Um.
Something from the Baltimore Sun, uh that we mentioned a
little bit before is that, um, something can change from
a cult to a religion over time. Right. Oh yeah,
and again it can splinter the opposite way as well.
(18:38):
So early Christianity, when it was first originating, it was
considered a cult because you had, you know, you had
certain groups of people, like you said, who are from
UH who were Jewish or Roman at the time, UM,
who then started following this one guy and this one
(18:59):
guy's message, and you know, it's an interesting comparison. I'd
like to I haven't read much up on this, but
I'd like to see someone's argument for Jesus as a
cult leader. I'd be fascinated to read that it just
if you looked. And I don't not saying that he was,
but just it would be an interesting angle to look
(19:20):
at it. Because they have a um uh theology that
did a couple of things. They said this UH, this
current stat status quo is um not the way that
humans are supposed to be. So it's kind of heretical,
and it confuses some of the earlier religions, the Jewish
(19:42):
religion and the Roman religion at the time, where some
of the predominant belief structures and while borrowing heavily from
a lot of those from Roman society from Jewish tradition,
UH Christianity itself was something that was novel and and
of course uh Islam was also considered a cult by
(20:05):
medieval Christians much later, who would have never UM called
their religion occult. But the new guy on the street
was was the same thing, and it's because some of
the same stuff. You know, Islam has Jesus has the
most quoted prophet in the Quran, uh and the there
(20:25):
there's so much commonality in the Abramatic religions. But still
they called it a cult. So this leads, Uh, this
leads to an interesting idea. What if the only real
difference between a cult and a religion is the length
of time that a spiritual organization is active. I think
(20:45):
that's a great point. That's an absolutely great point, because
as soon as the new guy comes along, that's weird
and different, that's a cult. And there's there's a great
argument here that we broke down from this article in
the Sun and uh, there there are a couple reasons
why this is a is kind of a good metric
or I don't know, what do you think is a
fair amount of time to transition, Well, it needs to
(21:10):
be one where a child can grow up inside this
belief structure. Okay, long enough to be old enough as
old at least as the parent was to and reproducing
and then and then continue right so that so that
person would have to Yeah, they're reproduction would be necessary.
You can't just bring people in. It's like one so
(21:33):
three generations total, maybe, yeah, that would be about right.
So of what's that a hundred years are a little less,
a little more, a little more maybe yeah? Um well,
I guess depends on when they have kids, right, when
they die? Yeah? Um? Okay, that all right. I think
that's very smart. And it has to function a couple
of ways, because already there will be people asking us
(21:54):
the writing emails, asking uh, well, what about a cult
that functions in secret hundreds of years. That's a little
bit different. We're talking about things that function in the
open um. So one of the most one of the
biggest points is a group that has survived over generations
cannot have the sort of self destructive or antisocial behavior
(22:16):
that occurs in cults, at least not openly. Right. You
can't kill your breeding population. You can't render them, uh
sterile one way or the other. Um. So, also can't
kill a lot of them as suicide, right, yeah, no
mass suicide. Also, it has to it has to play
(22:36):
nice with the current whomever the current government or state is.
So that means that you can't break laws like abuse laws. Um,
which is one way that groups are who later turned
out to be cults are often caught, you know. Um,
and it could be some dark stuff. It could be
domestic abuse, it could be um fraud, you know, taking
(22:58):
making your followers give up their financial assets to you,
or of course, in some cases it can be sexual abuse.
It's a that's a great point about functioning inside the
society and not making the rulers of the land you
occupy angry at you so. And I think that has
a lot to do with morality and why religion and
religious beliefs. Uh, the morality of a people is often
(23:21):
ascribed to that. Ah, that's such a good point. Yeah,
it's such a good point because um, one thing that
it seems religions tend to do is over time have
a morality which is is sort of a mirror of
the society in which they operate, or is tolerated by
(23:42):
that society. Sure so, um, you know, so occult that
argues something like people who are not in our religion
are not really human. Um, then that is not gonna
that morality is not going to jibe when the authorities
will always be under suspice. But if you have um
(24:02):
a moral argument which is something like, uh, people should
try to be good, which is when you boil it down.
That's that's one of the most basic tenants of any
sort of spiritual belief structure. And for thousands of years,
people have just been fighting over the definitions of good
and people. And UM, it's sad to say, I hope
(24:26):
that uh, the the aliens land they're not just disgusted
with us on that point, but yeah, pretty sure they will.
But then another thing they can uh to the point
about kids. Uh, these cults are excuse me, religions will
also grow institutions, so they'll have um, nonprofit organizations, they'll
(24:47):
take care of the sick and the elderly and the dispossessed.
They'll have systems to educate others, to basically bring people
up in these beliefs. So that again, that's the thing
we're talking about earlier. You can't let it die, so
you have to make sure the young people get the
message and then continue forward. And this sounds like a
(25:10):
recipe for something that's not just able to survive in
in a community where not everyone has that religion, but
it sounds like people of this religion or obeying these
kind of approaches could become really valuable to the larger society.
You know what, what are we talking We're talking about stable,
(25:31):
generation spanning, self sustaining organization that wants to help people. Um.
It sounds like a great thing. Sounds like a great thing,
and sometimes in history it has been. Of course, part
of being one of the guiding principles of human history
means that there is a lot of stuff on both
the pro and the con side. Millions of people have
(25:53):
been saved by various religions, and millions upon millions have
been murdered, no other way around it. Um, all right,
but it's time now to talk about some cults. We've
talked about the difference we can cults from religions, and
now it's time talking about cults. But before we do,
it's time for word from our sponsor. Right. Oh yeah,
(26:13):
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(28:26):
well that was um, that was interesting. Yeah, I can't
pick our sponsors, I guess. Oh yeah we should also say, um,
I don't know if they put it in the ad,
but I think we're If you mention us, you get
like an eight percent discount. Yeah. If it's a Tuesday,
it was something weird. They have a weird they have
(28:49):
a different calendar. Uh So now it's time to talk
about some out and out cults. Things are universally called
cults by everybody except for the people there. All right, well,
let's get started. This is one that we found that's
m hmm, a little weird. Let's just go into it.
(29:10):
It's called the Creativity Movement, formally the World Church of
the Creator. Now, this is a white separatist organization and
it advocates the whites only religion creativity. Wait, wait, wait, wait,
the name of the this bacist religion is creativity. Yes,
that is like the most uncreative name. But it's but
(29:34):
it's also so universal, although it's not at all universal.
It's whites only. Um, so it was. It was also
kind of a descriptive phrase that was used by uh,
this guy named Ben Clawson. I think that's how you
say it. It's like one of the leaders, I guess, yes,
and uh, it included all adherents of the religion. And basically,
the use of the term Creator does not it doesn't
(29:56):
refer to any kind of deity. There's no God. No,
it's to you. It's to the person, uh, the self
and white people. Um. But anyway, despite the former use
of the word of church and its name, the movement
is definitely atheistic, there's no belief in god. Huh. Okay,
(30:17):
Now this is the one that started in three but
the founder, Ben Klassen, died right in yes, yeah, okay,
so you only had twenty years there to run the thing.
And it's so it's so strange to me. Then the
you know, we're going to find of course that there
that racism um is prevalent in a lot of fringe cults. Um.
(30:43):
You know, racist organization doesn't necessarily consider itself also a
spiritual organization, but a lot of spiritual groups have no
problem with racism and in fact feel very justified about it.
And you know, sadly, although people might like to think
this is a new, newer kind of belief, that's more
(31:04):
and more in the fringes, it's been around since religions.
Racism and religion have been uh, thick as thieves for
a lot of human history. Um. I wanted to talk
about one that I really like, the Prince Philip movement
or a cargo cult. Now this is something that chuck
(31:25):
from stuff. You should know and I are both fascinated by.
I don't want to see we're big fans of it.
So this is an island called Tana or Tanna and
Vanuatu or vanatu and this and this uh van wattu
is aside from being something that will mispronounce regularly. Uh.
(31:46):
This is a small island nation. And during the sometime
probably in the fifties or sixties, having received air drops
from lanes that were flying over the islanders who were rural,
began what was called a cargo cult. So they believe,
(32:08):
at least as one try Bontana believes that Prince Philip
is a divine creature. You mean the Duke of Edinburgh, Yes,
the Duke of Edinburgh. Uh, and is the son of
a son and brother. So it's incestuous, which is okay
if you're if you're a deity. Um the son and
brother of the legendary John from now. I think have
(32:32):
we talked about cargo cults on the show before. We've
mentioned it a couple of times. We did the Sentinel Island,
that's right, Yeah, so you can learn some amazing stuff
about this. Uh. The the Royal couple didn't help at
all because in nineteen seventy four they visited the island,
(32:53):
which I just think is um elitist and kind of
not cool. I guess you could say it's diplomacy, but
I think it's tremendously condescending on the part of the
Duke of Edinburgh. But the but I think maybe his
intentions are good because he was made when he found
out about this religion. He's visited and exchanged gifts with
(33:16):
the leaders. Now, this cargo when it was originally dropped,
and not to go too far into the story, was
was amazing. And after learning of the uh, learning more
about John From and the West, the mystical understanding these
people have, which was often exploited or presented with ridicule
(33:37):
um resulted in them building like fake in a fake
airport essentially fake airway um and calling for the return
of John From for the cargo to bring more of
these amazing gifts, which if you think about it had
to be like space age may as well be magic.
They hadn't seen him before. But uh, that is that
is a story for another day. Here's the kind of one.
(34:00):
More so, there's something called new abbyon is um. And
this is something that you pointed out to me that
I had never heard of. This is an umbrella term
that refers to these doctrines and teachings of this guy
named Dwight York and Uh. It originated as as a
black Muslim group and I think it's in New York
(34:23):
right in the nineteen seventies. But eventually, well I'm kind
of skipping ahead of here, but eventually I found out
that they had headquarters in Georgia. Yeah, Putnam County, right, Yeah,
really interesting where there was a pyramid structure. And it's
really fascinating. You can you can search for New abby
and is that what? Just what you would search for
(34:44):
New Abbianism and you can find a picture. It's really interesting. Yeah.
The uh. And it's based on a bunch of different
things that Dwight York encountered in his time, like Freemasonry,
Shriner's Um, revisionist Christianity, course, Islam uh, A couple of
other things would probably be called cults uh, some ancient
(35:06):
astronaut conspiracy theories. UM. And this pretty much was centered
just on Dwight York by far. This leader, alpha male
of this group UM had some interesting beliefs, didn't they.
Oh yeah, we've gotta we've got a list here. You
wanna let's go back and forth. Okay. Number one, it
is important to bury the after birth, so that Satan
(35:27):
does not use it to make a duplicate of the
recently born child. Big problem in Putnam, I think, uh
number two, some aborted fetuses survived their abortions to live
in the sewers, where they would be gathered and organized
to take over the world. People were once perfectly symmetrical
and embedextrous, but then a meteorite struck Earth untilted this
(35:48):
its axis, causing handedness and shifting the heart off center
in the chest. Here's one of my favorites, Matt. Each
of us has seven clones living in different parts of
the world. Well obviously, I mean, I don't even know
if you're Matt prime or Matt. Yeah. Uh. Women have
(36:08):
existed for many generations before they invented men through genetic manipulation.
Thanks guys, I mean women. Uh. And then there's the
idea that Homo sapiens modern man as a result of
cloning experiments done on Mars using Homo erectus. That's crazy,
you know, it's crazier. What's crazier? Nicola Tesla came from Venus? Uh?
(36:30):
Is that crazy? You know? For everybody listening, Matt, just
that a mic drop. Um. Another one is that the
Illuminati of nurtured to Child, who was the son of Satan,
born on the sixth of June in ninety six at
the Dakota House on Second seventy two Street in New York,
born to Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis and the Rothchild Kennedy families.
(36:53):
The Pope was there, he performed necromantic ceremonies. Uh. Child
was raised by Nixon. Lives in Europe. Now it's you've
gotta you've gotta check out d White or to see
some of the um some of the legal trouble the
guy has been in and he's got numerous sexual abuse
charges amongst other charges of fraud. There is an argument
(37:16):
that people have had, which is, you know, was he
just accused of this to prevent his movement from becoming
self sustaining or a threat to a status quo? Uh? Well,
here's what if that last story is true? And just
just going from my invisibles mind, uh, imagining some of
the more crazy things. But what if what if that
(37:37):
story right there is true and it's so ridiculous that
no one would ever believe it, and that one guy
knew and he wanted to spread the word. I would
be surprised because there would be a lot more focused
and effective ways to spread the word about that. But
you know what, maybe we don't know. Maybe the Antichrist
really is alive right now, hooked to a computer called
(37:59):
the East three M. I would be terrible and wonderful
just knowing that it was true. Yeah, um, but here
here's our question. Now. Of course, since uh York's incarceration,
quite a few of his followers fell by the wayside.
He still does have a few, and these followers, um
(38:20):
maintain some of his writings and some of his recordings. Um.
And of course, with the stuff we're saying, you know,
when we just read that list, we're treating in a
lighthearted manner. But let's keep in mind that a lot
of established quote unquote established religions which have been around
for more than a century have beliefs that might sound
(38:40):
equally strange when you just list them the way that
we did. Yeah, I'm sorry, I must apologize for the
way I did that list. But whatever, I don't even
know if this is you or if this is one
of your seven clones ursch sorry, church Tertiary, well, Tertiary,
if I can just call you three um, we've we've
(39:02):
reached the point where usually in our podcast we talk
about where to go to learn more. UM, I have
a little bit of a of a of a twist
on this. If you're into it, Yeah, I'm totally into it.
Let's talk about how to get somebody help if they're
in a cult, because we know that this this can
be a heartbreaking thing, you know, especially so a lot
(39:23):
of people find themselves in a situation where maybe their
child is just old enough to be uh their own
legal guardian, but young enough or isolated enough that they
fall into a clearly unsafe situation like a cult. UM.
So we found a couple of things from some cult
helplines that we can advise you with. One of the
(39:46):
first things that if you're talking to a loved member
who is in a cult, be careful not to straight
up criticize the group or the member, because remember that
if it's a cult, they're going to try to tear
down this person's ego, which means that they have no privacy.
They will have to say what you said about the
cult or the leader, and then this will likely be used.
(40:10):
If the leader knows anything what's going on, this will
likely be used as a reason to cut you off
from their life, which makes it much harder. And you
have to keep in mind that this group is purposefully
trying to isolate this person, your loved one, So you
have to remember to initiate communication as much as you
possibly can with them. Um, but you have to be really,
really careful not to be judgmental when you're talking to
(40:32):
this person Socratic method, Yes, you can't because that will
send them directly in the opposite direction. Oh, another one
that's pretty important here. Uh, just some housekeeping which applies
to any organization, in my opinion, don't give original documents
to anyone. No original birth certificates, no original copies of
(40:54):
wills or anything like that. And please God, no titles,
no deeds to any physical possession. It will not be
yours for long. Do not, under any circumstances, allow yourself
to be persuaded by quote professionals to spend lots of
money on some kind of treatment or some kind of
(41:14):
legal action until you've verified the credentials of that person,
not only but also the qualifications that they have for
handling this problem. Right. Yeah, because it's there's there's something
where it verges into con territory where someone says, well,
you have this problem that I can solve for you
because of my vast knowledge, just like that doctor who
(41:36):
may or may not have existed in the Kuram case. Um. Next,
don't feel guilty, don't feel alone. These this kind of
stuff is distressingly common, and it can it can happen
to anybody's family. It doesn't mean that your family is
bad if one of your family members is suckered in
by occult Yeah, it's it's. It is very important to
(41:58):
remember that there are probably a lot of other people
going through very similar situation, and there are people you
can talk to. There's um you know, there is a
cult hotline and a cult help clinic. There's all kinds
of family support groups that meet monthly usually or sometimes
even more frequently. Yeah, and you can find you can
find some help, likely in an area relatively near to you.
(42:23):
The Internet is your friend in this regard, especially if
you're in like an isolated community, which some people might be. UM.
Get online, call a helpline. If if there's a situation
where you feel trapped and you think that you are
in a cult um, then you can call you You
legally can call nine one one and say that you
(42:46):
are being held against your will. Um. It is a
crime to hold somebody against their will without you know,
legal steps taken to do so. So unless they have
power of attorney over you, you know, um, which again
you should never agree to. Uh. Then you your best bet,
(43:06):
although it can be very difficult, is to go outside
of this group. The if if there's somebody who's exploiting
you an occult um or exploiting one of your loved ones,
then they're not going to give up, which means that
you should research the group, figure out everything about what
happens so you can know what's going on with this
person in your life. And then we go to the
(43:28):
most important thing to remember, right Matt, do not give up.
Remember that this person, your loved one, is probably a
product of either your upbringing or your friendship. Um. And
it's really hard to break those bonds. Even if if
the group has attempted to break those bonds, Um, there
(43:48):
is something there that remains, and you have you have
some sway over this person that you love, who probably
loves you back. So yeah, just you know, if you
really believe that it's a scary, dangerous situation, do not
give up, and let me add something else here, Matt,
that I think you and I have neglected to mention earlier.
(44:09):
It's very important just because let's say you have a
child or a friend, or a sibling or a parent
or whatever who believes in something that you don't agree with.
Just because they believe in that does not necessarily mean
they're in a cult. So you have to be very
very careful, um too, look at the organization as well
(44:33):
before you decide that something's a cult, because I think
it's it's deceptively easy. It's a bit of a slippery
slope to start with. Well, I don't like it, so
let me find things to dislike, you know, just like
the old Louis c Ca bit where he says, you know,
if you don't like something, if you don't like a person,
and everything they do makes them seem like a jerk.
You know, they look at that tool eating ice cream.
(44:57):
Luis came in Insights on the Planet right now. Yeah,
he'd probably be a pretty good cult D programmer, which
we didn't even talk about because sometimes it turns out
that's a scam. Yeah, But I think, Matt, now is
the time for us to finally do some listener mail right.
Oh yes, and we've got a great one. This comes
(45:20):
from Kellison D and just I wanna say here. Kellison
says that we can talk about or quote any part
of this email in the email. So cool, Kellson, thanks
for writing in. Kelson says, I didn't check the date
on the video, so I don't know if I'm too late.
But at the end of your cult video, which I loved,
you asked about what underground basis you should cover in
(45:42):
future videos. I was raised Mormon, and that's why I
loved the cult video so much. Interesting the Mormons have
not secretly by any means, and underground vault that supposedly
holds the largest genealogy library in the world. I've never
been to it, but I'm told that tours are offered
maybe they still are, and that it's bomb proof and
(46:04):
they have to take you in a golf cart a
mile deep into the earth. Granted more specifically, and the
Mormon's material of choice for though the granted is the
Mormon's material choice for all edifices. I don't know if
there's anything fishy here, but it's certainly weird. What do
you think then? Uh? You know it is true that
the Church Lad Day Saints is a world leader in
(46:26):
genealogy UM and recordings. As far as the specific information
about the underground facility, I know it's there. I wish
an you more. I would love to check it out. UM.
And it's very interesting to read this email. What I
think we should do is start looking into this, uh
(46:48):
in some more detail. I mean, it's it's fascinating. I
think it's a great idea. Actually, if I had the
funds to put anything deep underground in grant it, if
that I thought were special, man, I'd do that. Yeah,
you put genealogy records, I'd put everything down there. You
would be like an underground bunker hoarder. Oh yeah, dude.
Anything I thought was important for humanity that wasn't perishable
(47:10):
going in my granite bunker. All right, Well we'll build
it one brick at a time. Man. One thing, just
want to say thanks again to Kelson for writing in
and letting us read your email. Yeah, man, thank you
so much. And if for everybody else who's wondering, hey,
how can I get a shout out on the podcast
which Dick Kelson asked for. That Kelson didn't ask for
a shout out. But guess what you got one? You
(47:33):
got one? Oh, I don't know, Kellison. I'm really sorry.
I don't know. Uh. Kellison will write in to correct us.
But that was a fantastic piece of listener mail. We
do appreciate your time writing in. You can also talk
to us. We're lousy all over the internet. You can
find us on Facebook, you can find us on Twitter.
We're conspiracy stuff at both of those. We've got a website.
(47:55):
Oh but then I'm gonna go update as we speak.
It's stuff they don't want you to know dot com.
It's a little bit long to type in, but the
journey is worth it, my friends. And if you want
your listener mail read on the air, if you want
to shout out on the air, then it's very very
very simple to do. So all you have to do
is send us an email directly with a good story,
(48:16):
a topic, suggestion, some feedback. We love it all man.
Our email address is conspiracy at Discovery dot com. From
more on this topic, another unexplained phenomenon, visit test tube
dot com slash conspiracy stuff. You can also get in
touch on Twitter at the handle at conspiracy stuff.
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Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.