December 6, 2013 • 31 mins
The search for life-saving medical innovations has a dark side: human experimentation. And, while history is unfortunately chock-full of horrifying experiments on innocents, it isn't all stuff from the ancient past. In fact, experiments on unconsenting humans may continue in the modern day. Tune in to learn more with Ben and Matt.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
From UFOs two Ghosts and Government cover Ups. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to now. Welcome
back to the show. Thanks for tuning in. My name
is Ben Bullen and my name is Matt Frederick and
(00:21):
that's our super producer, Noel Over on the boards, which
that was a nice bow, Noel. That makes this stuff
they don't want you to know the audio show, right,
that's correct. And today we are talking about human experimentation,
something that we've covered already in our video series, but
we thought we'd like to sit down and go over
it a little bit more in depth. Yeah, because we've
(00:44):
touched on this and a couple of different shows. We
have a series just on human experimentation. As you said,
we also touched a little bit on it in the
deep Web because there's some real creepy stuff you can see,
um about people claiming to conduct non consensual human experiments. Right,
that's the best kind, right, Yeah, that's the that's the
(01:04):
main kind. Um. Well, where better to start off than
with an article by h Robert Lamb from Stuff to
Blow your Mind? Uh, great show he does, he does
right for the website How Stuff Works and podcast for
us and anytime you think, man, I'd be interested in
hearing a show kind of like Ben and Matt's, will
(01:25):
go ahead and check out these folks. Uh. Point being
Robert has a great article on human experimentation on our
website how stuff Works dot com, and he had a
great quotation here, uh that one of us should read.
What do you think, Matt? Yeah, I'll go for it. Okay.
The issue of human experimentation generally comes down to a
(01:46):
basic fact. When science deals directly with humans, you have
to study humans eventually. It's that simple. Whether you're looking
to heal ailments and injuries, build us, say, for automobile,
or design a deadlier weapon, you may need to test
human thresholds for disease, stress, and injury. Yeah, which I
thought was a really well written way to say something
(02:08):
that is the essentially the crux of the ethical dilemma
that is human experimentation. Now we know, of course, the
human experimentation dates far back into the past. I always
mispronounced this guy's name the father of anatomy horror Flis
horror Filius. So this guy, uh, the father of anatomy
being a fairly prestigious title. Uh. He also practiced vivis section,
(02:32):
which is a fancy word for cutting people open while
they're alive, kind of to see what happens. Yeah, that's
um that's the kind of thing you hear about with
kids experimenting on cats that turn out to be serial killers.
So good job, Ruflis. Yeah, like one of the trifecta,
there is a sideboard. But did you ever hear that?
(02:53):
What was the theory that there are three warning signs
that the psychologist made to figure out if someone was
going to be a serial killer and arsonists later in life.
One of them was torturing animals, another one's late stage
bed wedding, and then re arson. Apparently bedwetters and arsonists
are part of a ven diagram. It's weird. Sorry, different show.
(03:15):
We'll get to that one. So for a long time,
here's the problem with modern medicine. Um or, I guess
this wouldn't even count as modern, but here's the problem. Nonetheless,
for quite a while, medicine depended upon the study of cadavers,
and these were often from executed criminals. Yeah, and well,
here's the biggest problem with working on a cadaver they're dead.
(03:38):
Their body is completely different than a functioning human body.
There are a lot of processes that occur immediately upon
death and that begin to occur. So the information that
you're getting, the data that you're getting from a corpse
is not the same as what you would get from
a living a body. Right. Yeah, that's a really good point. Um,
(03:59):
And because we're both being grown ups, I will avoid
making a lot of death fart jokes. Okay, that happens.
I appreciate that. Okay, I think it's still concipizes that
it like that. Well, yeah, and that's a good point.
Because the laws were a bit shaky. This was a
case where we need cadavers to study, even with their drawbacks,
because you can't cut people apart while they were alive,
(04:20):
or we shouldn't be doing that, but the laws around
procuring cadavers, especially in Western Europe, were pretty difficult, leading
to something called the resurrection men, which is a cool
name for people who steel dead bodies or superheroes however
you want to yeah, or superhero could be, it could be.
(04:42):
It sounds it's a super heroic name, maybe some kind
of I could see it as a Bible superhero some
kind of contemporary Christian church puts on. Yeah, or like
someone who like people who just cannot die. Oh excellent, Um,
but that kind of messes up the stakes of this story.
I apologize. No, no, anyway, these guys aren't don't apologize.
These guys aren't superheroes. Really, their cadaver thieves. And uh,
(05:06):
they interfered with the social fabric of their time so
much that it led to the Anatomy Act of eighteen
thirty two, which was passed so that medical schools wouldn't
have to rely on this illegal, this bootleg corpse industry,
uh to advance higher learning. So they also, uh, well
(05:29):
it kind of it kind of follows a trend where
the people that were being used for this kind of
experimentation where a lot of times criminals or minorities of
wherever place they were living, disabled, and a lot of
times the poor. Right. Yeah, and here's where we get
to a kind of scary point with human experimentation. These
(05:50):
practices on the disenfranchised continue into the modern age, and
as we see they continue in some places today. Don't
get us wrong, we are we are well aware that
human experimentation is necessary. Um. And some of the research
that would have been just considered an atrocity in modern
(06:10):
times did lead to valuable data about the human condition. Right,
that's true. So well, let's talk about something, Ben, Let's
talk about when human experimentation is just downright wrong. Okay, no,
if sans and butts, it's just wrong. Okay. Uh well,
all right, let's let's listen these off. One. When it's
non consensual, that makes sense. I don't want anybody doing
(06:34):
anything to me that I don't want them to do,
so I can understand that that's the whole golden rule thing, right. Okay,
what about when the patients are the victims are uninformed,
so they don't have a chance to disagree or to
give conser interesting. Uh so, I'm just trying to understand
the difference between non consensual and not being informed. Non
(06:55):
Consensual is no, don't cut me open, I'm alive, unin
full armed. Is not being told that the um the
food you're being given has an experimental radio radioactive tracing device.
Something understood, thank you, sir. So it's it's kind of
it's a difference of degree. And then when there's no
(07:17):
regard for patient safety right now, of course, or when
the patients are victims, can't refuse to participate at any point.
So I'm not telling me there. That's a little yeah,
that's great. That's a little bit different. So let's say
we're let's say you and I are in an experiment
and uh Knowle's conducting experiment. And he says, okay, guys,
(07:37):
you're each going to get into this experiment where you
stab yourselves in the hands every every ten minutes, you
stab yourselves in the hands for science or whatever. And
uh then, you know, let's say, eleven minutes into it,
we want to quit. But he says no, and he's
got the you know, the science goons tying us down.
(07:59):
And then I got that science Well it's hypothetical, okay,
but but that's the idea. And then maybe, um, I
don't know about this last one, the idea that human
experimentation could be wrong when they're alternative avenues of research.
That's a little bit ethically iffy for some people because
those alternative avenues of research could most often be animals, right,
(08:24):
which some people have a big problem with. So we
we do have substitutes for experimenting on another person, right, Yeah, yeah,
animals are the go to um, Rabbits are cows? Are
you sometimes mice? Rats? Primates? Um. There are a lot
of people that see that as equally as wrong. Yeah,
(08:45):
it might not always be appropriate on a couple of levels.
Even just on the ethical level might not be appropriate,
but also on the um biological level, we might get
the same data. Like one thing that always escapes people,
I think is when you hear a study about this much,
you know, aspertame or something given to a rat induced
(09:09):
cancer rats not a person um, And the dosages might
be different as well. So it's a substitute, but it's
not it's not ethical. It's only less unethical, I guess
if you're saving human life. Um. But then there's the
other one, which is my favorite. You know this one,
(09:30):
the old self experimentation. Just turn that knife on yourself.
Let's see what happens. Man, take that pill. Who knows,
I'm gonna get some data. Hopefully I'll still be around
to write it down, which is great. That's a great point.
One of the big problems with the sort of roll
of the dice devil make are approach to science that
is self experimentation, is that it's difficult to wonder how
(09:51):
you would retain objectivity. How how can you measure the
data when you are the observer and the observed absolute man,
I can imagine somebody thinking that it's going a lot
better because of maybe the side effects of whatever testing
he's he or she is doing on themselves. Yes, and
speaking testing. Now, let's run through some cases of human
(10:16):
experimentation that is just out and out wrong. Let me
jump to let's see, let's start off with the Guatemala
syphilis experiments. In the forties, UH Dr John Cutler of
US Public Health Service worked with the Guatemalan government to
expose people to things like syphilis, gonorrhea, and uh a
couple of other nasty characters, primarily to see if penicillin
(10:41):
could prevent the affection. UM only seven people were treated. Now,
many of these people already had the disease, were just
observed or denied treatment. UM eighty three did die. Some
of these folks were prisoners, some were soldiers, and some
that were mental patients. Yeah, talking about non content there, jeez.
Then you've got the Tuskegee experiments. These are probably one
(11:03):
of the most well known episodes of human experimentation. This
is UH in nineteen thirty two, all the way to
nineteen seventy two. That's forty years where there were experiments
with It was an experiment overall, but it was really
just looking at the effects of syphilis. But the it
(11:25):
was blackmails that had syphilis already and then there's also
a control group, and they essentially just wanted to see
what would happen over the time with syphilis and these men.
And they they didn't deny them treatment, did they. It
was they didn't. Uh, they didn't let them know that
penicillin could treat syphilis, and it could and it could
have they could have saved their lives exactly, but they didn't.
(11:47):
And uh, this is interesting. IO. I owe an apology.
We issue a correction about this because when we first
talked about it, I say that the Public Health Service
infected these people, and in the c d CES upside
it says they didn't. So we did issue a correction.
But I had I had a couple of people on
YouTube coming up and saying, no, I'm related to someone
(12:10):
there they were infected with syphilis by the government. So well,
that's one of those things. Do you trust the government source?
A lot of people don't. We We kind of ride
that fine line between wanting to take what what's said
and kind of use it in conjunction with other information.
It's a tough spot for us to really know what
(12:31):
the truth is. Yeah, well, we we do try to
make sure that we can find it it is. It
is a good point, Matt. It can be difficult at
times to discern where the truth is in in between
varying accounts, you know. Uh So, with all due respect
everybody involved, I think the best thing that we can
say is that we have conflicting reports, but the official
(12:55):
story is that the people already had syphilis. Now we're
building up to them. Probably the most well known periods
of modern human experimentation, that side World War Two. Man,
that's that's where are things. That's where it gets crazy. Then, yes,
that's where it gets crazy. Concentration camp experiments. This is
something that everybody probably knows about. I would be surprised
(13:19):
if someone was a fan of our show and did
not know that multiple scientists across various concentration camps like
dock Ow, uh Sastenhausen, not Spidler, buken Walden, more, you
can bold and more, we're conducting just diabolical, fiendish experiments
on completely innocent people. Um. When you're looking at everything
(13:43):
from extreme temperatures, looking at hypothermia, hypothermia, UM, pressure chambers.
I mean, that's that's some pretty crazy stuff, trying to
look at the human body and altitude and like, how
what are the thresholds for the human body? Um, You're
looking at diseases and actions typhoid, malaria, yellow fever, even gases,
(14:04):
mustard gas. Uh. They Now this case, we do know
it is unambiguously true that the scientists in this case
did deliberately affect people with diseases. UM. Now you know
one of the most infamous of these people is a
fellow named Josef Mengele at Auswitz. Uh. He he was
(14:26):
The way that we have it here um is that
he was torturing people under the guise of medicine. Um.
But as we look at some of his experiments, his
science wasn't that great. No, it's the confirmation biased thing,
trying to trying to prove his his ideological beliefs right
(14:46):
through this experimentation about races. I mean it's really deeply
seated in racism, is it not. Yeah, Yeah, it's really
deeply seated in his idea of proving that um an
aryan man us to race was somehow superior to other people.
So as founding principles run sound, which made his science unsound. Uh.
(15:07):
He had one thing we should mention. Uh. He had
a number of obsessions. Probably the most well known would
be his obsession with twins. Um do twins, Uh experience
each other's emotions? If something happens, to which win will
the other one be aware? Um oregan transplants experimented with
as well. Apparently there are a lot of grizzly things
(15:28):
that happened to one twin and perhaps not to the other,
and one survived. That's really crazy stuff. Yeah, And just
as an example to show how off his science was,
he would have experiments where he had this concussion or
head injury experiment where they just had this kid being
hit over and over in the head with a hammer.
(15:49):
Good god, kind of well to see what happens, which
is such a strange question. You know, what happens when
you just get hit in the head with a hammer.
You know, let's find out just forever one and a hammer. Yeah,
and this pales and you know, we're not making light
of this, If anything, we're indicting the guy for um
(16:10):
going so far with such bad science. Um, but yeah,
he wasn't the only one. Was. The Germans were not
the only people doing experimentations at the time. The UM
Japan also had a little bout with human experimentation. That's
of course Unit seven thirty one that was headed by
shiro Ishi and that was founded in nineteen thirty two
(16:32):
and it was active from nineteen thirty seven to nineteen
and um there again lots of experiments with chemicals, with
biological agents against stuff to poison, like exposing people to
poisonous substances and extreme temperatures again, more vivisection and even
you know, diseases like the bubonic plague. Now they were
(16:53):
top secret right at the time. Yeah, that was found
out later. This is this. Uh, these two cases are
interesting because um, some of the members of Unit thirty
one had diplomatic immunity at the close of the war
because the idea was that their experiments um, as messed
up as they were and how or as horrific as
(17:14):
they were, their experiments did have some sort of scientific
merit and most importantly they could never be repeated. Yeah,
but that information was important, like you said, and what
happened to it. Funny story. Funny story about what happened
to it. We know what happened to uh, some of it.
We know that a lot of it did end up
in the United States and informed later epidemiological research on
(17:39):
our end. We also know that a lot of its
state classified. So what's your take on that using using
the information that came directly from the suffering of people. Well,
to be candid with you, and that is a great
question to be candid with you. I think that it's Ah,
it's our possibility as people to use that kind of
(18:03):
information if there's a way to prevent further deaths. Um,
what about you? Actually, I think we I think it
is our responsibility also to have that information because that's
information that could be when you look at something with
the extreme temperatures. Let's just take that as an example,
all right, imagine how that probably has informed things like
(18:29):
clothing for extreme temperatures. UM, trauma. Yeah right, I mean
there there are great things that will eventually come out
of it, as horrible as it is, and hopefully will
never happen again. That one time that it happened in
the nineteen forties that we know of that we know
of we've gained a lot of information and it's terror
(18:51):
it's horrible to think about it. Well, yeah, that's and
you know, that's a fair point. There's an ongoing debate
today about whether the day provided by these experiments is
useful or if so, to what degree. And there are
people who will say that it wasn't useful at all.
But as we found out, if we turn from that
(19:12):
chapter of history and go just a little bit further
into the future, Um, we go to St. Louis. Oh, yeah,
an old St. Louis in nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties,
in the early days of the Cold War, the army
arrived in St. Louis and began spraying zinc cadmium sulfide
on children and families. Yeah. And uh, these these poor,
(19:37):
unfortunate folks were from the Pruitt Ego housing projects. So
again we see the pattern of taking advantage of the
disenfranchised to the poor. Um to see how this would
how this would work out? Um, do you want to
talk about another this is it feels weird saying that
this is one of our favorites because it's such a
(19:58):
grizzly thing to discuss. Yeah, yeah, um, mk Ultra, I mean, yes, sir,
Well that's this one. This one is fascinating to me
obviously because there are you can read some of the
reports on the information from this, they declassified information. So
this the mk Ultra is the c I a program
where LSD was used to test essentially essentially psychology. Yeah,
(20:24):
finger quotes around tests there. Yeah, this is true. But
this is this is the infamous one that you've probably
heard about. You may have heard of Project Artichoke. We
did a whole series on Artichoke, which was I believe
the predecessor of mk Ultra. Yeah. Mk Ultra had a
couple of predecessors, and it had a couple of sub programs.
The ideas were that some of the ideas were things like,
(20:48):
will LSD function as a truth serum? Or will l
s D allow us to make a Manchurian candidate, to
compel somebody to do something that they would not usually do.
But they just went not with it. They went nuts
and bananas with it. They were dosing everybody and their mom.
They were dosing you know, they were getting prostitutes to
pull guys over and like a honey pot trap and
then dosing those guys. They were dosing each other. They
(21:11):
were doing a little joking, Hey I dosed you. I know,
we're having this dinner party, but which you know, quickly
becomes more of a portrait of an agency out of control,
um than any kind of rigorous human experimentation. Although there
was a sort of merit to what they were doing
(21:31):
because they did learn valuable things. Um, But then I
think they went out of control with it, and that
is just we're just scratching the surface. We're just touching
on some of the more well known human experimentation examples. Uh,
there's psychological stuff that could not be repeated today, like
the Stanford prison experiment, um, the or the Milgram experiment
(21:55):
I believe, and the Stanford prison one is where they
took some students, they divided them into prison guards and prisoners, right, Yeah,
and it quickly it was found out that when you
when you play someone in a position of power at
the guards, they take on this other so um, just
(22:15):
these qualities that that hadn't been really observed before. How
quickly that those qualities were taken in Yeah, and to
such an extreme degree, to the point of being abusive
to the pseudo prisoners and so on. You know, what's
what's always startling to me about the psychological experiments And
I have a question for you about these later, But
(22:37):
what's always startling to me is that it calls to
mind how much the human mind is like water and
it conforms to its container. And the containers would be
the roles, uh, that society gives us or that we
give ourselves. So there's there's so many implications about this.
You know, what kind of what kind of container do
(22:59):
you put somebody in socially if you want them to
be successful? What do you do if you want them
to fail? And how do we apply that knowledge? This
is what I'm thinking about during the HR meetings. Man,
you guys can't see this, but Ben Ben looks at
me so intensely sometimes when he's saying these things. It's
it's incredible. You you have to do it one day.
You have to sit across from Ben. H. I would
(23:22):
highly recommend it. Oh man, Uh, that's that's weird. Man.
Maybe maybe some people in the audience have already set
across from us in disguise, right what, it's all part
of our experiment. There were also epidemiological experiments. This is
when you told me about, Matt. Oh, yeah, this is
the this is Operation Big Buzz Wow. Okay, so this
(23:44):
is where Mosquito it was. It was tested whether or
not mosquitoes would be a good weapon. If you weaponize
the mosquitoes by infecting them with yellow fever and then
you send out this massive swarm of mosquitoes on your enemies,
everybody gets yellow fever over there. Um, let's see if
this works. So it was tested in Georgia actually nineteen
(24:05):
and um, I don't know. It just seemed like a
crazy idea to me. It sounds like an interesting idea. Yeah,
it's and you know if from a tactical perspective, it's
it's smart warfare. If it would work, it's interesting. Ben.
It makes me think about the West Nile outbreak that
happened in a couple of different places, and it was
largely thought that mosquitoes were the carriers of the West
(24:27):
Nile virus. Hum. I don't know. It just makes me think, oh, dude,
is somebody send some West ni house Quito's over here? Man. Well,
if you think about it, it's I mean, it makes
sense that a country or a government would want to
learn how to propagate things that way, because that's how
Mosquito has already been doing it for you know, thousands
(24:48):
of years, millions of years. Maybe, so it's I think
it's smart. I think it's ethnically questionable. Um, we should
probably we should probably save some of the radiation experiments
for another day. But just to just to make it clear.
For instance, um, with radiation, these are things like exposing
(25:11):
children who are orphans, were disabled to rods of radioactive
material may be inserted in their nose or their septum. Uh,
you know, see what happens. Just for funzies, Radiation poisoning
is what happens. Radiation poisoning is what happens. Uh. You
can read a fairly comprehensive history of some of these
(25:32):
experiments online if you especially if you do radiation experiments
United States, Cold War, you'll find some you'll find some
amazing stuff. But we are going to wrap up by
pointing out a place where this kind of experimentation is
still going on today. Isn't that right? Matter? Yes, then
(25:52):
we have to head over to the old DPRK, North Korea,
and we've got some crazy information. They're a defector. Is
that say this is still going on in prison camps. Yes. Uh,
one of those defectors being a guy named Dr Kim,
one of the three research scientists working with the blessing
(26:13):
of the leadership and the Workers Party which kind of
runs the country. Uh. He testified that he had developed
a chemical weapon that was cyanide mixed with another compound
and experimented with it on on people who are caught
in a place called Camp twenty two, which is a
(26:33):
notorious prison camp. Future historians are going to be baffled
and probably sickened by the concentration camp situation in North Korea. Geopolitically, Uh,
it's such that no other countries rushing in to help
these people. But for a long time, these rumors of
(26:54):
human tests and were just that rumors. But now a
scientist who defected from there is saying um that that
it is all true, and his stories are backed up
with facts as confirmed by intelligence agents. And it's especially
important to know that Camp twenty two is just one
of tons. I don't know how many exactly there are,
(27:14):
it's it's secret, but there are a lot of them.
And we're going to do an episode on North Korea
to so stay tuned for that one. But when we
get to the question of what else could be going
on right now, Well, we can't really know. Nope, there's
a there's a culture of secrecy that makes it difficult
to know for sure until after the fact. But we
(27:35):
do We do know that human experimentation continues, hopefully in
a more ethical way. Um. And pretty much every every
region of the world. The United States has DARPA, you know,
we have other experiments or other experimentation centers in Russia
and China and Japan. Across the world, people are experimenting
(27:57):
on human beings, hopefully in a more ethnic a way. UM.
That I have to ask you about the future. All right,
I'm ready. So do you think that technology could ever
reach a point where human experimentation is unnecessary? Absolutely? Okay?
How well, I think it will be a combination of
(28:18):
computer models of the human body and how one functions,
and something to do with possibly creating a human that
isn't necessarily a human. So a body that isn't necessarily
considered a human. Perhaps it doesn't have a brain, or
perhaps it doesn't it only has a central nervous system
(28:41):
that can be tested. Now here's my question, you, ben, Okay,
if we could make that kind of being a a
corpse body that's alive. Would you be okay with testing
on it? Um? You know, I would probably be more
comfortable with it if it were made a piece meal.
If there were, you know, it'd be much less ethically difficult.
(29:03):
I think to conduct experiments on a human heart by itself,
or a foot or toe or and I I know
that's grizzly. But the idea, the idea of making a
whole body and just taking away the brain. I don't
know if that it makes me question my own idea
because if it doesn't have a brain, how do we
know how the singles are being interpreted? And that's usually
(29:25):
the most important thing, Like what what are the effects
on the human and the way you find that out
is through the brain. Well, what about then, a virtual
simulation of a human being with such fidelity that you
could you could treat it exactly like virtual models, So
you wouldn't have the hands on experience, but would you
would know the effects of different things. You just have
(29:47):
to be able to code those effects, right, Yeah, which
means you might have to have a person to begin with. Yeah.
I don't know, man, Okay, so we're gonna leave it
up to you. Guys. We know that we and a
little bit long on this, but I like this episode, Matt,
because we went from hidden history, one of our favorite things,
to the precipice of the future. Right, that's right and
(30:09):
beyond and beyond. Uh and speaking beyond, we are going
to head out and go beyond the studio here, guys,
thanks so much for tuning in. We hope that you
are enjoying our new show. We'd love to hear from you.
Give us some ideas for upcoming topics, let us know
some of your perspectives on human experimentation, or you know,
just say what's up. Give me a shout out if
(30:30):
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We are at conspiracy Stuff. You can go to our
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you have to go just find stuff they don't want
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many different dot coms than Internet. We're on Google t Yeah,
(30:54):
we're apparently on Google Plus. We should probably get a tumbler.
Um we're gonna start binding. It's gonna be crazy. Oh man, Yeah,
let's just always do vide videos. You can also email
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(31:18):
dot com slash conspiracy stuff. You can also get in
touch on Twitter at the handle at conspiracy stuff.
From UFOs two Ghosts and Government cover Ups. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to now. Welcome
back to the show. Thanks for tuning in. My name
is Ben Bullen and my name is Matt Frederick and
(00:21):
that's our super producer, Noel Over on the boards, which
that was a nice bow, Noel. That makes this stuff
they don't want you to know the audio show, right,
that's correct. And today we are talking about human experimentation,
something that we've covered already in our video series, but
we thought we'd like to sit down and go over
it a little bit more in depth. Yeah, because we've
(00:44):
touched on this and a couple of different shows. We
have a series just on human experimentation. As you said,
we also touched a little bit on it in the
deep Web because there's some real creepy stuff you can see,
um about people claiming to conduct non consensual human experiments. Right,
that's the best kind, right, Yeah, that's the that's the
(01:04):
main kind. Um. Well, where better to start off than
with an article by h Robert Lamb from Stuff to
Blow your Mind? Uh, great show he does, he does
right for the website How Stuff Works and podcast for
us and anytime you think, man, I'd be interested in
hearing a show kind of like Ben and Matt's, will
(01:25):
go ahead and check out these folks. Uh. Point being
Robert has a great article on human experimentation on our
website how stuff Works dot com, and he had a
great quotation here, uh that one of us should read.
What do you think, Matt? Yeah, I'll go for it. Okay.
The issue of human experimentation generally comes down to a
(01:46):
basic fact. When science deals directly with humans, you have
to study humans eventually. It's that simple. Whether you're looking
to heal ailments and injuries, build us, say, for automobile,
or design a deadlier weapon, you may need to test
human thresholds for disease, stress, and injury. Yeah, which I
thought was a really well written way to say something
(02:08):
that is the essentially the crux of the ethical dilemma
that is human experimentation. Now we know, of course, the
human experimentation dates far back into the past. I always
mispronounced this guy's name the father of anatomy horror Flis
horror Filius. So this guy, uh, the father of anatomy
being a fairly prestigious title. Uh. He also practiced vivis section,
(02:32):
which is a fancy word for cutting people open while
they're alive, kind of to see what happens. Yeah, that's
um that's the kind of thing you hear about with
kids experimenting on cats that turn out to be serial killers.
So good job, Ruflis. Yeah, like one of the trifecta,
there is a sideboard. But did you ever hear that?
(02:53):
What was the theory that there are three warning signs
that the psychologist made to figure out if someone was
going to be a serial killer and arsonists later in life.
One of them was torturing animals, another one's late stage
bed wedding, and then re arson. Apparently bedwetters and arsonists
are part of a ven diagram. It's weird. Sorry, different show.
(03:15):
We'll get to that one. So for a long time,
here's the problem with modern medicine. Um or, I guess
this wouldn't even count as modern, but here's the problem. Nonetheless,
for quite a while, medicine depended upon the study of cadavers,
and these were often from executed criminals. Yeah, and well,
here's the biggest problem with working on a cadaver they're dead.
(03:38):
Their body is completely different than a functioning human body.
There are a lot of processes that occur immediately upon
death and that begin to occur. So the information that
you're getting, the data that you're getting from a corpse
is not the same as what you would get from
a living a body. Right. Yeah, that's a really good point. Um,
(03:59):
And because we're both being grown ups, I will avoid
making a lot of death fart jokes. Okay, that happens.
I appreciate that. Okay, I think it's still concipizes that
it like that. Well, yeah, and that's a good point.
Because the laws were a bit shaky. This was a
case where we need cadavers to study, even with their drawbacks,
because you can't cut people apart while they were alive,
(04:20):
or we shouldn't be doing that, but the laws around
procuring cadavers, especially in Western Europe, were pretty difficult, leading
to something called the resurrection men, which is a cool
name for people who steel dead bodies or superheroes however
you want to yeah, or superhero could be, it could be.
(04:42):
It sounds it's a super heroic name, maybe some kind
of I could see it as a Bible superhero some
kind of contemporary Christian church puts on. Yeah, or like
someone who like people who just cannot die. Oh excellent, Um,
but that kind of messes up the stakes of this story.
I apologize. No, no, anyway, these guys aren't don't apologize.
These guys aren't superheroes. Really, their cadaver thieves. And uh,
(05:06):
they interfered with the social fabric of their time so
much that it led to the Anatomy Act of eighteen
thirty two, which was passed so that medical schools wouldn't
have to rely on this illegal, this bootleg corpse industry,
uh to advance higher learning. So they also, uh, well
(05:29):
it kind of it kind of follows a trend where
the people that were being used for this kind of
experimentation where a lot of times criminals or minorities of
wherever place they were living, disabled, and a lot of
times the poor. Right. Yeah, and here's where we get
to a kind of scary point with human experimentation. These
(05:50):
practices on the disenfranchised continue into the modern age, and
as we see they continue in some places today. Don't
get us wrong, we are we are well aware that
human experimentation is necessary. Um. And some of the research
that would have been just considered an atrocity in modern
(06:10):
times did lead to valuable data about the human condition. Right,
that's true. So well, let's talk about something, Ben, Let's
talk about when human experimentation is just downright wrong. Okay, no,
if sans and butts, it's just wrong. Okay. Uh well,
all right, let's let's listen these off. One. When it's
non consensual, that makes sense. I don't want anybody doing
(06:34):
anything to me that I don't want them to do,
so I can understand that that's the whole golden rule thing, right. Okay,
what about when the patients are the victims are uninformed,
so they don't have a chance to disagree or to
give conser interesting. Uh so, I'm just trying to understand
the difference between non consensual and not being informed. Non
(06:55):
Consensual is no, don't cut me open, I'm alive, unin
full armed. Is not being told that the um the
food you're being given has an experimental radio radioactive tracing device.
Something understood, thank you, sir. So it's it's kind of
it's a difference of degree. And then when there's no
(07:17):
regard for patient safety right now, of course, or when
the patients are victims, can't refuse to participate at any point.
So I'm not telling me there. That's a little yeah,
that's great. That's a little bit different. So let's say
we're let's say you and I are in an experiment
and uh Knowle's conducting experiment. And he says, okay, guys,
(07:37):
you're each going to get into this experiment where you
stab yourselves in the hands every every ten minutes, you
stab yourselves in the hands for science or whatever. And
uh then, you know, let's say, eleven minutes into it,
we want to quit. But he says no, and he's
got the you know, the science goons tying us down.
(07:59):
And then I got that science Well it's hypothetical, okay,
but but that's the idea. And then maybe, um, I
don't know about this last one, the idea that human
experimentation could be wrong when they're alternative avenues of research.
That's a little bit ethically iffy for some people because
those alternative avenues of research could most often be animals, right,
(08:24):
which some people have a big problem with. So we
we do have substitutes for experimenting on another person, right, Yeah, yeah,
animals are the go to um, Rabbits are cows? Are
you sometimes mice? Rats? Primates? Um. There are a lot
of people that see that as equally as wrong. Yeah,
(08:45):
it might not always be appropriate on a couple of levels.
Even just on the ethical level might not be appropriate,
but also on the um biological level, we might get
the same data. Like one thing that always escapes people,
I think is when you hear a study about this much,
you know, aspertame or something given to a rat induced
(09:09):
cancer rats not a person um, And the dosages might
be different as well. So it's a substitute, but it's
not it's not ethical. It's only less unethical, I guess
if you're saving human life. Um. But then there's the
other one, which is my favorite. You know this one,
(09:30):
the old self experimentation. Just turn that knife on yourself.
Let's see what happens. Man, take that pill. Who knows,
I'm gonna get some data. Hopefully I'll still be around
to write it down, which is great. That's a great point.
One of the big problems with the sort of roll
of the dice devil make are approach to science that
is self experimentation, is that it's difficult to wonder how
(09:51):
you would retain objectivity. How how can you measure the
data when you are the observer and the observed absolute man,
I can imagine somebody thinking that it's going a lot
better because of maybe the side effects of whatever testing
he's he or she is doing on themselves. Yes, and
speaking testing. Now, let's run through some cases of human
(10:16):
experimentation that is just out and out wrong. Let me
jump to let's see, let's start off with the Guatemala
syphilis experiments. In the forties, UH Dr John Cutler of
US Public Health Service worked with the Guatemalan government to
expose people to things like syphilis, gonorrhea, and uh a
couple of other nasty characters, primarily to see if penicillin
(10:41):
could prevent the affection. UM only seven people were treated. Now,
many of these people already had the disease, were just
observed or denied treatment. UM eighty three did die. Some
of these folks were prisoners, some were soldiers, and some
that were mental patients. Yeah, talking about non content there, jeez.
Then you've got the Tuskegee experiments. These are probably one
(11:03):
of the most well known episodes of human experimentation. This
is UH in nineteen thirty two, all the way to
nineteen seventy two. That's forty years where there were experiments
with It was an experiment overall, but it was really
just looking at the effects of syphilis. But the it
(11:25):
was blackmails that had syphilis already and then there's also
a control group, and they essentially just wanted to see
what would happen over the time with syphilis and these men.
And they they didn't deny them treatment, did they. It
was they didn't. Uh, they didn't let them know that
penicillin could treat syphilis, and it could and it could
have they could have saved their lives exactly, but they didn't.
(11:47):
And uh, this is interesting. IO. I owe an apology.
We issue a correction about this because when we first
talked about it, I say that the Public Health Service
infected these people, and in the c d CES upside
it says they didn't. So we did issue a correction.
But I had I had a couple of people on
YouTube coming up and saying, no, I'm related to someone
(12:10):
there they were infected with syphilis by the government. So well,
that's one of those things. Do you trust the government source?
A lot of people don't. We We kind of ride
that fine line between wanting to take what what's said
and kind of use it in conjunction with other information.
It's a tough spot for us to really know what
(12:31):
the truth is. Yeah, well, we we do try to
make sure that we can find it it is. It
is a good point, Matt. It can be difficult at
times to discern where the truth is in in between
varying accounts, you know. Uh So, with all due respect
everybody involved, I think the best thing that we can
say is that we have conflicting reports, but the official
(12:55):
story is that the people already had syphilis. Now we're
building up to them. Probably the most well known periods
of modern human experimentation, that side World War Two. Man,
that's that's where are things. That's where it gets crazy. Then, yes,
that's where it gets crazy. Concentration camp experiments. This is
something that everybody probably knows about. I would be surprised
(13:19):
if someone was a fan of our show and did
not know that multiple scientists across various concentration camps like
dock Ow, uh Sastenhausen, not Spidler, buken Walden, more, you
can bold and more, we're conducting just diabolical, fiendish experiments
on completely innocent people. Um. When you're looking at everything
(13:43):
from extreme temperatures, looking at hypothermia, hypothermia, UM, pressure chambers.
I mean, that's that's some pretty crazy stuff, trying to
look at the human body and altitude and like, how
what are the thresholds for the human body? Um, You're
looking at diseases and actions typhoid, malaria, yellow fever, even gases,
(14:04):
mustard gas. Uh. They Now this case, we do know
it is unambiguously true that the scientists in this case
did deliberately affect people with diseases. UM. Now you know
one of the most infamous of these people is a
fellow named Josef Mengele at Auswitz. Uh. He he was
(14:26):
The way that we have it here um is that
he was torturing people under the guise of medicine. Um.
But as we look at some of his experiments, his
science wasn't that great. No, it's the confirmation biased thing,
trying to trying to prove his his ideological beliefs right
(14:46):
through this experimentation about races. I mean it's really deeply
seated in racism, is it not. Yeah, Yeah, it's really
deeply seated in his idea of proving that um an
aryan man us to race was somehow superior to other people.
So as founding principles run sound, which made his science unsound. Uh.
(15:07):
He had one thing we should mention. Uh. He had
a number of obsessions. Probably the most well known would
be his obsession with twins. Um do twins, Uh experience
each other's emotions? If something happens, to which win will
the other one be aware? Um oregan transplants experimented with
as well. Apparently there are a lot of grizzly things
(15:28):
that happened to one twin and perhaps not to the other,
and one survived. That's really crazy stuff. Yeah, And just
as an example to show how off his science was,
he would have experiments where he had this concussion or
head injury experiment where they just had this kid being
hit over and over in the head with a hammer.
(15:49):
Good god, kind of well to see what happens, which
is such a strange question. You know, what happens when
you just get hit in the head with a hammer.
You know, let's find out just forever one and a hammer. Yeah,
and this pales and you know, we're not making light
of this, If anything, we're indicting the guy for um
(16:10):
going so far with such bad science. Um, but yeah,
he wasn't the only one. Was. The Germans were not
the only people doing experimentations at the time. The UM
Japan also had a little bout with human experimentation. That's
of course Unit seven thirty one that was headed by
shiro Ishi and that was founded in nineteen thirty two
(16:32):
and it was active from nineteen thirty seven to nineteen
and um there again lots of experiments with chemicals, with
biological agents against stuff to poison, like exposing people to
poisonous substances and extreme temperatures again, more vivisection and even
you know, diseases like the bubonic plague. Now they were
(16:53):
top secret right at the time. Yeah, that was found
out later. This is this. Uh, these two cases are
interesting because um, some of the members of Unit thirty
one had diplomatic immunity at the close of the war
because the idea was that their experiments um, as messed
up as they were and how or as horrific as
(17:14):
they were, their experiments did have some sort of scientific
merit and most importantly they could never be repeated. Yeah,
but that information was important, like you said, and what
happened to it. Funny story. Funny story about what happened
to it. We know what happened to uh, some of it.
We know that a lot of it did end up
in the United States and informed later epidemiological research on
(17:39):
our end. We also know that a lot of its
state classified. So what's your take on that using using
the information that came directly from the suffering of people. Well,
to be candid with you, and that is a great
question to be candid with you. I think that it's Ah,
it's our possibility as people to use that kind of
(18:03):
information if there's a way to prevent further deaths. Um,
what about you? Actually, I think we I think it
is our responsibility also to have that information because that's
information that could be when you look at something with
the extreme temperatures. Let's just take that as an example,
all right, imagine how that probably has informed things like
(18:29):
clothing for extreme temperatures. UM, trauma. Yeah right, I mean
there there are great things that will eventually come out
of it, as horrible as it is, and hopefully will
never happen again. That one time that it happened in
the nineteen forties that we know of that we know
of we've gained a lot of information and it's terror
(18:51):
it's horrible to think about it. Well, yeah, that's and
you know, that's a fair point. There's an ongoing debate
today about whether the day provided by these experiments is
useful or if so, to what degree. And there are
people who will say that it wasn't useful at all.
But as we found out, if we turn from that
(19:12):
chapter of history and go just a little bit further
into the future, Um, we go to St. Louis. Oh, yeah,
an old St. Louis in nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties,
in the early days of the Cold War, the army
arrived in St. Louis and began spraying zinc cadmium sulfide
on children and families. Yeah. And uh, these these poor,
(19:37):
unfortunate folks were from the Pruitt Ego housing projects. So
again we see the pattern of taking advantage of the
disenfranchised to the poor. Um to see how this would
how this would work out? Um, do you want to
talk about another this is it feels weird saying that
this is one of our favorites because it's such a
(19:58):
grizzly thing to discuss. Yeah, yeah, um, mk Ultra, I mean, yes, sir,
Well that's this one. This one is fascinating to me
obviously because there are you can read some of the
reports on the information from this, they declassified information. So
this the mk Ultra is the c I a program
where LSD was used to test essentially essentially psychology. Yeah,
(20:24):
finger quotes around tests there. Yeah, this is true. But
this is this is the infamous one that you've probably
heard about. You may have heard of Project Artichoke. We
did a whole series on Artichoke, which was I believe
the predecessor of mk Ultra. Yeah. Mk Ultra had a
couple of predecessors, and it had a couple of sub programs.
The ideas were that some of the ideas were things like,
(20:48):
will LSD function as a truth serum? Or will l
s D allow us to make a Manchurian candidate, to
compel somebody to do something that they would not usually do.
But they just went not with it. They went nuts
and bananas with it. They were dosing everybody and their mom.
They were dosing you know, they were getting prostitutes to
pull guys over and like a honey pot trap and
then dosing those guys. They were dosing each other. They
(21:11):
were doing a little joking, Hey I dosed you. I know,
we're having this dinner party, but which you know, quickly
becomes more of a portrait of an agency out of control,
um than any kind of rigorous human experimentation. Although there
was a sort of merit to what they were doing
(21:31):
because they did learn valuable things. Um, But then I
think they went out of control with it, and that
is just we're just scratching the surface. We're just touching
on some of the more well known human experimentation examples. Uh,
there's psychological stuff that could not be repeated today, like
the Stanford prison experiment, um, the or the Milgram experiment
(21:55):
I believe, and the Stanford prison one is where they
took some students, they divided them into prison guards and prisoners, right, Yeah,
and it quickly it was found out that when you
when you play someone in a position of power at
the guards, they take on this other so um, just
(22:15):
these qualities that that hadn't been really observed before. How
quickly that those qualities were taken in Yeah, and to
such an extreme degree, to the point of being abusive
to the pseudo prisoners and so on. You know, what's
what's always startling to me about the psychological experiments And
I have a question for you about these later, But
(22:37):
what's always startling to me is that it calls to
mind how much the human mind is like water and
it conforms to its container. And the containers would be
the roles, uh, that society gives us or that we
give ourselves. So there's there's so many implications about this.
You know, what kind of what kind of container do
(22:59):
you put somebody in socially if you want them to
be successful? What do you do if you want them
to fail? And how do we apply that knowledge? This
is what I'm thinking about during the HR meetings. Man,
you guys can't see this, but Ben Ben looks at
me so intensely sometimes when he's saying these things. It's
it's incredible. You you have to do it one day.
You have to sit across from Ben. H. I would
(23:22):
highly recommend it. Oh man, Uh, that's that's weird. Man.
Maybe maybe some people in the audience have already set
across from us in disguise, right what, it's all part
of our experiment. There were also epidemiological experiments. This is
when you told me about, Matt. Oh, yeah, this is
the this is Operation Big Buzz Wow. Okay, so this
(23:44):
is where Mosquito it was. It was tested whether or
not mosquitoes would be a good weapon. If you weaponize
the mosquitoes by infecting them with yellow fever and then
you send out this massive swarm of mosquitoes on your enemies,
everybody gets yellow fever over there. Um, let's see if
this works. So it was tested in Georgia actually nineteen
(24:05):
and um, I don't know. It just seemed like a
crazy idea to me. It sounds like an interesting idea. Yeah,
it's and you know if from a tactical perspective, it's
it's smart warfare. If it would work, it's interesting. Ben.
It makes me think about the West Nile outbreak that
happened in a couple of different places, and it was
largely thought that mosquitoes were the carriers of the West
(24:27):
Nile virus. Hum. I don't know. It just makes me think, oh, dude,
is somebody send some West ni house Quito's over here? Man. Well,
if you think about it, it's I mean, it makes
sense that a country or a government would want to
learn how to propagate things that way, because that's how
Mosquito has already been doing it for you know, thousands
(24:48):
of years, millions of years. Maybe, so it's I think
it's smart. I think it's ethnically questionable. Um, we should
probably we should probably save some of the radiation experiments
for another day. But just to just to make it clear.
For instance, um, with radiation, these are things like exposing
(25:11):
children who are orphans, were disabled to rods of radioactive
material may be inserted in their nose or their septum. Uh,
you know, see what happens. Just for funzies, Radiation poisoning
is what happens. Radiation poisoning is what happens. Uh. You
can read a fairly comprehensive history of some of these
(25:32):
experiments online if you especially if you do radiation experiments
United States, Cold War, you'll find some you'll find some
amazing stuff. But we are going to wrap up by
pointing out a place where this kind of experimentation is
still going on today. Isn't that right? Matter? Yes, then
(25:52):
we have to head over to the old DPRK, North Korea,
and we've got some crazy information. They're a defector. Is
that say this is still going on in prison camps. Yes. Uh,
one of those defectors being a guy named Dr Kim,
one of the three research scientists working with the blessing
(26:13):
of the leadership and the Workers Party which kind of
runs the country. Uh. He testified that he had developed
a chemical weapon that was cyanide mixed with another compound
and experimented with it on on people who are caught
in a place called Camp twenty two, which is a
(26:33):
notorious prison camp. Future historians are going to be baffled
and probably sickened by the concentration camp situation in North Korea. Geopolitically, Uh,
it's such that no other countries rushing in to help
these people. But for a long time, these rumors of
(26:54):
human tests and were just that rumors. But now a
scientist who defected from there is saying um that that
it is all true, and his stories are backed up
with facts as confirmed by intelligence agents. And it's especially
important to know that Camp twenty two is just one
of tons. I don't know how many exactly there are,
(27:14):
it's it's secret, but there are a lot of them.
And we're going to do an episode on North Korea
to so stay tuned for that one. But when we
get to the question of what else could be going
on right now, Well, we can't really know. Nope, there's
a there's a culture of secrecy that makes it difficult
to know for sure until after the fact. But we
(27:35):
do We do know that human experimentation continues, hopefully in
a more ethical way. Um. And pretty much every every
region of the world. The United States has DARPA, you know,
we have other experiments or other experimentation centers in Russia
and China and Japan. Across the world, people are experimenting
(27:57):
on human beings, hopefully in a more ethnic a way. UM.
That I have to ask you about the future. All right,
I'm ready. So do you think that technology could ever
reach a point where human experimentation is unnecessary? Absolutely? Okay?
How well, I think it will be a combination of
(28:18):
computer models of the human body and how one functions,
and something to do with possibly creating a human that
isn't necessarily a human. So a body that isn't necessarily
considered a human. Perhaps it doesn't have a brain, or
perhaps it doesn't it only has a central nervous system
(28:41):
that can be tested. Now here's my question, you, ben, Okay,
if we could make that kind of being a a
corpse body that's alive. Would you be okay with testing
on it? Um? You know, I would probably be more
comfortable with it if it were made a piece meal.
If there were, you know, it'd be much less ethically difficult.
(29:03):
I think to conduct experiments on a human heart by itself,
or a foot or toe or and I I know
that's grizzly. But the idea, the idea of making a
whole body and just taking away the brain. I don't
know if that it makes me question my own idea
because if it doesn't have a brain, how do we
know how the singles are being interpreted? And that's usually
(29:25):
the most important thing, Like what what are the effects
on the human and the way you find that out
is through the brain. Well, what about then, a virtual
simulation of a human being with such fidelity that you
could you could treat it exactly like virtual models, So
you wouldn't have the hands on experience, but would you
would know the effects of different things. You just have
(29:47):
to be able to code those effects, right, Yeah, which
means you might have to have a person to begin with. Yeah.
I don't know, man, Okay, so we're gonna leave it
up to you. Guys. We know that we and a
little bit long on this, but I like this episode, Matt,
because we went from hidden history, one of our favorite things,
to the precipice of the future. Right, that's right and
(30:09):
beyond and beyond. Uh and speaking beyond, we are going
to head out and go beyond the studio here, guys,
thanks so much for tuning in. We hope that you
are enjoying our new show. We'd love to hear from you.
Give us some ideas for upcoming topics, let us know
some of your perspectives on human experimentation, or you know,
just say what's up. Give me a shout out if
(30:30):
you want to talk to us. Heading over to Facebook,
we are conspiracy Stuff. You can also find us on Twitter.
We are at conspiracy Stuff. You can go to our
YouTube channel, which is YouTube dot com slash conspiracy stuff
or test tube dot com. Again, I think that one
you have to go just find stuff they don't want
you to know on test Tube. Yeah, so many, so
many different dot coms than Internet. We're on Google t Yeah,
(30:54):
we're apparently on Google Plus. We should probably get a tumbler.
Um we're gonna start binding. It's gonna be crazy. Oh man, Yeah,
let's just always do vide videos. You can also email
us directly. We are conspiracy at Discovery dot com. From
more on this topic, another unexplained phenomenon, visit test tube
(31:18):
dot com slash conspiracy stuff. You can also get in
touch on Twitter at the handle at conspiracy stuff.
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The Bobby Bones Show
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