The Rendlesham Forest Incident with Toby Ball

Over a period of just a few days, multiple members of the military witnessed strange, unexplained events in the vicinity of the UK's Rendlesham Forest. Today, the guys welcome returning guest Toby Ball to learn more about this infamous series of UFO sightings -- and what he found in the course of his research into the bizarre, at times contradictory claims surrounding this event.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of I Heart Brading. Hello, welcome back to the show.

(00:25):
My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called
me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer
Paul mission controlled decands. Most importantly, you are you, You
are here, and that makes this the stuff they don't
want you to know. We're pretty excited about today's episode, folks,
because we're diving into something that is near and dear

(00:46):
to our hearts and hopefully to yours, especially nowadays with
the with the U. S. Government admitting that there are
unknown things somewhere out there in the sky. That's right,
we're talking about UFOs, but we are not examining this alone.
We're talking about a very specific story of UFO encounters,

(01:08):
and we're doing it with the help of the one
and only Toby Ball, investigative journalist, podcaster, the creator of
Strange Arrivals. Strange Arrivals Season two is out now as
you listen to today's show. Toby, thanks so much for
joining us. Well, thanks for having me back. That's right,
you're returning guests. I think Saturday Night Live rules say

(01:32):
once you hit number five, we have to give you
a jacket. You're on a short list, my friend, we
don't have that many returning guests. I don't know if
it's because they don't want to come back or what not.
I'm kidding, but no, it's very very excited to have
you back. And uh, such a cool way of extending
what you did in the first season of Strange Arrivals
with this, you know, very familiar story, but I think
one that's not familiar in terms of like how it

(01:54):
sits in the overall lore of UFO sightings. Well, yeah,
let's let's get into that, Toby. The the Rendelshore Forest
incident is known by a lot of people as kind
of the Roswell Incident of the UK. So why don't
why don't you just tell us what it is, like overall,
what happened, what's supposedly happened, and then we'll get into

(02:16):
what you found throughout your season. Yeah, it's the Roswell
of the UK. It's an encounter that takes place over
three nights. There's actually the first and the third night
are sort of major nights. The second night there's there's
a little something that happens, but essentially the first night
is Christmas night on and I should take a step back.

(02:41):
This all takes place in Rendelshom Forest, which is a
force that's in between two Royal Air Force Bass bent
Waters and Woodbridge, and there while they're both sort of
technically under the control of the British Air Force, in
act their US Air Force Bass and bent Waters actually

(03:04):
has nuclear weapons. So this is night. It's the height
of the Cold War, so you know, it's Christmas night.
It's not a whole lot going on. There's sort of
a routine patrol around the perimeter, and one of the
two people in the jeep, uh, this guy Bud Stephens,
sees a light in the sky that descends into the

(03:24):
forest just a matter of maybe a quarter mile from
where they're driving. And yes, the guy who's with him,
whose name is John Burrows, he says, you know, have
you ever seen anything like that? Burrows says, I haven't,
And they see a light coming from the forest. They're
not they're not sure what to do because the forest

(03:45):
is actually off base, so they don't have clearance to
go out there, they call into headquarters. Headquarters sends uh
this guy Jim Peniston who's slightly higher ranking, and aup
of other people to meet them at this gate. So
they get there and they talk it over and they

(04:06):
think that maybe it's a plane crash. That that seems
to be the best explanation they can come up with
with that limited data, and they start. What they need
to do is to go off base, go into the
woods to see, you know, if their survivors see what
the situation is. Uh. So they leave their weapons with
Stephens and three and three of them take off in

(04:26):
a jeep, drive the jeep as far as they can
into the forest and then proceed on foot. They have
trouble with their radios. They leave one guy, this guy
Ed Caban sag sort of as a relay in between
the jeep and where they're going. They see this light
coming at them through the forest, and then so Burrows
and Peniston approached the light. Apparently the light gets brighter.

(04:50):
They dive behind like this this berm, like this raised
area of ground, and then the stories sort of diverge lightly.
And I'll give you the sort of less involved version,
which is and this is Burrows version is that they
get up and they see the light is receding through

(05:11):
the trees, and they follow it, and they don't actually
see a craft, but they keep following this light and
they go out into a field which is near like
this very very small village, and the light continues to
go away. They try and follow it, they don't catch it.
They eventually turn around, um and if they're coming back,

(05:34):
they see another set of lights in the forest, and
this is sort of a blue and white set of lights.
And at that point they return to base and and
and report in. So that that's the first night. And
I assume we will wait and I'll tell the longer
penestation setting. I already have so many questions, and I'm

(05:57):
sure that the audience does as well. So. Uh. One
of the things our fellow conspiracy realists are always interested
in when we when we hear specific details or timelines
of high profile UFO u a P sightings is the
point where the stories diverge. In your previous work on

(06:18):
season one of Stranger Rivals with the Betty and Barney hillcase,
you had really dug in and found those those intersection points,
right of differences in reports, differences in opinion or speculation.
But one thing that's different about this is that, as

(06:39):
as you had mentioned to us earlier, we're chatting off
air this this event occurred in the eighties, so there
are people alive and lucid who who have personal experience,
firsthand experience with this. When you were talking with people
and found these divergent points in the story, Toby, uh,
did people seem to agree to disagree? Was there anyone

(07:04):
saying like, no insert person here has their facts wrong,
or were they just saying, well that's how I remember it. Yeah,
this is an interesting question. The three people I interviewed,
who are really the three main voices on rendallshem of
the people who actually had encounters, So that's that's Chuck Halt.
Who have we haven't talked about yet, John Burrows and

(07:27):
Jim Peniston. I mean, they're all they've they've all work
together on things and work separately on things. And as
time has gone on, you know, certainly in Peniston's situation
and Halts to to somewhat lesser extent, Burrows not so much,
like their stories have changed slightly. And I think there

(07:47):
is and I talked about this a little bit in
the podcast and I don't think it's like in a
malicious way, but there is there's a sense of who
owns the story, right, like who owns your experience? So
when I buck to them, there was a little bit
of that guy doesn't know what he's talking about. Oh,
I don't know. That guy kind of panicked and is well,
I'm sure to talk about in a little bit. You know,

(08:10):
this guy was stuck in suspended animation and didn't experience
this thing. So I'm the only person who actually knows
what happened, you know. So, and it was with different
levels I mean there, I think there is some I
mean their books involved, So there are two of the
people were kind of sort of either I wouldn't say

(08:30):
accused each other of lying, but of of not having
the facts trade and sort of promoting a narrative that
wasn't born out by what actually happened. Yeah, so this
is something you get into later in the in the season.
I don't want to spoil too much, but a major
theme I think of the show, uh competing narratives and
motivation for having a separate narrative. UH. A lot of

(08:55):
the diverging information seems to come when television producers or
you know, a lot of times television producers or somebody
else comes through and is interviewing one of these individuals
for a high profile show, and then it seems as
though maybe the stories really begin to diverge that way.
We've talked on this show before. How you know, a

(09:16):
producer a lot of times has a a need to
have the most compelling story possible, and the lines between
you know, what is nonfiction and fiction blur a little
bit in their needs, so like and and it also
it also goes into some of the government's motivations for

(09:36):
some of the things that happened later in the season. So, uh,
in your mind, do you think these guys when you're
talking to them, do you get a sense that they
believe like their own story so much so that it's
truth to them, or that did you get a sense
that maybe there's something else going on there? So when

(09:59):
I talked to John Rows, I I feel like his
story has been fairly consistent. He kind of talks about
what he knows and what he doesn't know. You know,
he has some thoughts about what it actually was, which
you know, I don't know how accurate that is. And
Chuck halt I feel like he feels very strongly. And
what's kind of interesting about his story is that he

(10:19):
kind of sticks to the story. But like these things
that get mentioned kind of in passing at the time
take on new life. You know, it becomes a little
more dramatic than it was when he first talked about it.
It you know, late nineteen early nine. One Peniston has
a whole new narrative line that that pops up well

(10:40):
after the fact, and so I can't judge on how
cincerious or anything like that, but it is something that
that really kind of pops up out of nowhere. And
again it actually the critical moment, as you were talking
about it, comes when they're taping I think it's Ancient
Aliens maybe, but one of those shows, and it's on camera,

(11:02):
Like there's a clip of it that you can find,
I don't know if you can find on the internet,
but somebody shared it with me to show me, like
what happened, um, And it's he finds this binary code
in this in this notebook while they're while they're filming,
and that's kind of the key moment to this next
like longer, completely strange narrative that he tells and This

(11:24):
is really important because this is something that we discussed
in season one in our interview, which is there's this
the lemma between perceived sincerity and uh, just the treacherous
nature of memory. Right, and in your in your work
as an investigative crime reporter, I'm sure you've seen eye

(11:47):
witnesses get things wrong, but not because they're trying to
be misleading. It's simply because every time you remember something,
you remembering the last time you remembered it. So with this,
the reason I wanted to ask originally about how people
treated these different divergent narratives or opinions is because that

(12:10):
is one of the things that you know, like the
hardcore skeptics really hinge on when they talk about any
kind of inexplicable encounter. But I don't. I don't want
to disrupt our timeline too much because I know, I
know a lot of us are listening at home or
possibly in a spacecraft and wondering, well, hey, what happened

(12:34):
on day two? So Day two is actually not a
ton happens there. There's a brief encounter where a car
is on patrol. It's not even clear if there are
one or two people in the car um and a
light actually goes inside the car, and you know, so
traumatizes the woman officer who's in the car, whose name

(12:55):
I'm I'm forgetting at the moment that you know, she's
taken off duty and is actually I think leaves leaves
Bentwaters goes to another base. I tried to track her
down without success. Um. I heard from somebody else that
she kind of is laying low and not talking about this.

(13:16):
But that was really the only thing that happened. Like,
I don't even know if that would be much of
a story if it wasn't bridging nights one and night three.
But night three is is the next night when there's
like a big encounter that's that's seen by a whole
bunch of people. So you mentioned this other person, Halt,
Now can you describe who that person is and what

(13:38):
they did to add to what we know about this incident? Okay,
So Chuck Halled was a deputy base commander, so he
was fairly high up in the in the hierarchy on base.
So there was a party which would be the night
of the teven and the bass brass are there, and

(13:59):
you know, an airmand comes in and says the you know,
the lights are back, and so there's some conversation and
you know, people for the most part don't want to
deal with it, like I don't think it was taken
so seriously, so as it's been put to me. Chuck
Holt got the short straw, so he has to like
pull together a group of people to go out into

(14:20):
the forest to see what's going on. So he gets
a group, including this guy, Morgan Neville's who apparently is
sort of a uh, photography enthusiasts, and so he gets
brought along thinking that maybe he takes some pictures. They
get night vision goggles, uh, and there's some question about
whether they had been trained on them and knew exactly

(14:43):
what they did a Geiger counter, and they tromp off
into the woods to try and figure out what's going on.
At the same time, John Burrows has been hanging out
with some of his buddies on base and they decided
to go out and check it out for themselves too.
So you've got these two groups who kind of they
eventually meet in the forest Halt. You know, he goes

(15:05):
to where his understanding of the original landing spot was.
They see this light through the trees, he takes some
Geiger counter readings. My understanding is that even though it
wasn't you know, at zero or whatever, that it was
basically normal background radiation. They use the night vision goggles,
which increases light twenty thousand times or something. So he

(15:28):
through the night vision goggles in addition to be like
nearly blinded by how bright things are, he thinks he
sees a little bit more detail. It looks like an
eye looking at him. But the light keeps coming in, disappearing, coming, disappearing,
And they do the same thing, right, They kind of
try to follow the light. They go out into the
into the field, the light sort of receding from them,

(15:50):
and then they see what what they think are a
whole bunch of lights in the sky, probably above Bentwaters
Air Base. And they watch it for quite a long time,
are reporting back, aren't getting much back from headquarters, wondering
if there's radar on any of these things, not get
anything back on that, uh, And eventually they're just cold

(16:14):
and tired and they leave, and you have an actual
recording of that occurrence, right right, right, So Hal when
that was I did mention this. But when Halt goes out,
he brings a tape recorder, like a nineteen eighties tape recorder,
and uh, and so he's taping what he considers to
be important moments because he's only got so much tape,

(16:36):
right and batteries, so he's turning it on and off
and on and off and on and off. So but
you do here, I mean, it's this real time record
of these moments while they're watching it, and you can tell,
I mean, they're not doesn't sound like they're faking it.
They honestly don't know what's what's going on. Uh, And
they're kind of freaked out about it, but not not scared.

(16:57):
I mean, Hall is just you know, he's kind of
laughing in amazement at what's what's going on around him. Um.
So you know, they come back and they report in
and eventually the Air Force, the people who are in charge,
the the Americans. I don't really know what to make
of it. In all honesty. One of the things that's

(17:18):
interesting about the official responses it seems like they're never
really all that concerned. But because you have American service
people marching around off base in the middle of the night,
there needs to be some kind of explanation. And so
the base commander has Halt right a memo that he's

(17:39):
going to give to the Royal Air Force guy who's
like sort of technically in charge of the base, sort
of explaining what was happening. Right, And so this is,
you know, this is the morning, early morning of so
we're still in the holidays, so this base commander is
actually off, I believe in Wales, like visiting family for
the holidays. So Halt writes this memo is just one page.

(18:02):
I think there's four points that he makes, and he's
sort of detailing both of what happened on the first
night as far as he's heard, and then what he
actually witnessed. So he writes it, but then he waits
until this guy comes back from vacation like days and
days and days, like more than a week, and then
he gives it to him. And so that's another thing
that will come up later. It's like, well, you know,

(18:23):
if you thought, you know, aliens or whatever we're you know,
penetrating this nuclear air base, why didn't you like call
the guy and like tell him right away that this
is going on. Why did you wait like a week
and a half to give him this information? Like it
doesn't seem like you were taking it too seriously. Yeah,
that's the That's the thing like reading that memo, which

(18:43):
is publicly available now, uh, I think since nine under
an f o I A. Reading this memo was really
fascinating because the title makes you wonder just how many
memos these guys get. The idol is literally unexplained lights
you know, two weeks later or whatever. And with this

(19:06):
what's fascinating is when you know, when we hear fo
I request, the assumption for a lot of people is
that it means whatever document was given was top secret departmentalized.
But from my understanding, the memo itself was not actually classified,
and the response did seem somewhat lackluster, especially considering the

(19:30):
concerns you would have about any kind of security around
a nuclear base. In your opinion, When Holt, as he said,
pulls the short straw and goes out and he has
this equipment and he notices that there's something to miss um,
did he initially come to a conclusion that there was
something extraterrestrial occurring? Because I believe that he has gone

(19:54):
on record afterwards saying that he personally believes he saw
something extra terrestrial. Do you think that was one of
his initial conclusions or something he arrived at over time,
because again the memo is just like their lights and
we don't know why or right, Yeah, that's a good question.

(20:14):
I don't know if I have a definitive answer on that.
I mean, I think looking back at it, Halt sort
of implies that he did at the time, but I
don't know if that if that's actually the case. And again,
I think there's this strange lack of urgency that you
think if he was committed at that time to its

(20:36):
extraterrestrials hovering above our nuclear weapons, that he would push
a little bit harder to get that to the people
who needed to see it, and that just didn't happen.
And again that that gap in time is something that
you know, skeptics point to, and that the military at

(20:56):
the time, like the the you know, the government of
Great Britain or you know, Kingdom, that was one of
the things they said. It's like we didn't take it
seriously because they didn't take it seriously, like the people
who did the report didn't think it was serious enough
to bother somebody during vacation, like they wait until they
came back, so you know. I mean, I've run across

(21:18):
things in my job that I don't think are that important,
but I would call my boss sure how and it
doesn't have to do with aliens and nuclear weapons. Well,
I mean, you know, for example, we we we always talked,
we always talk about these disembodied lights. That's being kind
of like a hallmark of classic UFO sightings, and the
Phoenix lights, I think is one of the more recent
ones that we've talked about on the show. I actually
just realized that's pretty funny. Kurt Russell, the actor, was

(21:40):
the civilian pilot who actually spotted the Phoenix lights and
reported them. Um, I don't I don't know if we
talked about that in the episode, but I was looking
it up and they came up. He just kind of
casually mentioned in a BBC interview, but he was flying
his son to visit his son's girlfriend or something and
he saw this like V shaped array of lights and
he called it in. So I mean, you know, like
it seems like something would definitely escalate, especially if you

(22:01):
were in charge of overseeing, um, things of that nature,
like nuclear weapons or nuclear facilities. But I'm wondering, you know, Ben,
you made a really good point early on in this
interview about how this was in the eighties, So there
was a lot more stuff out there in terms of
reports of these kinds of sightings in terms of pop culture,
like the Close Encounters of the third kind came out

(22:23):
in nineteen seventy seven. I'm just wondering if, like you
think any of that stuff fed into or detracted maybe
from the stories or from these folks willingness to to
report them. Maybe they thought because there was all this
stuff out there, they would be seen as quacks or
something if they, like you know, reported anything of that nature.
That's a good question. I know that Penistin in particular,

(22:44):
but all three of them kind of mentioned that, like
reporting that you saw UFOs was not really a path
to success in the air force. You know. I think
there's that angle to it. But I also think there's
the angle that it's it's it's out there, like you
see strange lights. One of the possibilities is, you know,
alien visitation, and would that have happened in like vent

(23:08):
two before Close Encounters and and uh, you know, before
some of this other stuff was in the air. I
don't know. And then when you see when when when
you uh find out what the skeptics the kind of
the explanation for it is. Would would you be more
open to that explanation even at the time if you

(23:30):
didn't have in the back of your mind, oh man,
this is this maybe you know, extraterrestrial craft that we're encountering.
This is context that you can kind of exist within.
Where it was before that it wasn't there and it
was just kind of like w TF. But now it's like, Okay,
there's a calculus that goes into this decision at this
point where I'm based on what we know, what's been reported,
what's out there, what you know in pop culture and

(23:51):
cinema and TV and stuff. It's like, how does this
make me look? You know, because there really is like
a much more concrete understanding, uh and a vied right
between the skeptics and the believers at this point in time. Well, yeah,
and I think when you when you add the fact
that it's you know, it's in the military, um, and
the military has gone through, you know, the Air Force

(24:12):
in particular has gone through. This whole process was Project
Blue Book that ended, you know, about ten years before,
and it's sort of officially we're not dealing with UFOs anymore.
If you see anything, you report it to your local authorities,
don't report it to us. And then when you have
people who are part of the Air Force said, no,
we're tramping around in the woods and we saw this

(24:33):
light and you know, we think it's extra terrestrials. You know,
I think that's kind of a head scratcher. It's you know,
it's like, why, why is this happening? Why are you
telling me this? What do you want me to do
about it? Because we officially, like, you've got to take
it up with a different authority. Side note, Toby, thank
you for putting officially in there, right, some things would

(24:55):
later come to light. We'll pause for a word from
our sponsor and we'll be with Toby Ball, and we're
back with more from Toby Ball on Strange Arrivals season two.
There's so much to talk about, specifically with the Randels
from Force incident, but I I kind of want people

(25:18):
to have the revelations in the middle of your podcast
rather than this one. Specifically from the skeptic angle, that
episode three, in particular is one where it feels like
your eyes get open to a lot of data that
wasn't available when the original stories are happening. Yeah, and

(25:40):
you can you'll get it from the title of episode
three that I'm not even gonna say on this episode. Uh,
but you mentioned some of the other Project Bluebook and
everything that kind of culminated up to before this occurrence. Um.
You talk a lot about j Allen Heinik and the

(26:02):
kind of the civilian part of the UFO information gathering
that was done by the US government. UM. I want
to talk about him a little bit, specifically in regards
to the encounters system that he created. Uh. You'll you'll
you'll be familiar with this close encounters of the first, second,
and third kind, as well as the additions that came later,

(26:26):
the fourth kind and the fifth kind. And I can't remember,
Toby if last time we talked with you we had
already talked with Stephen Greer or not, but we we
had him on the show to discuss the fifth kind. Um,
which who buddy, Uh, that's a whole thing. Uh. But
specifically I want to ask you about Heinik again, the

(26:47):
guy that created this thing. Why was he so interested
in close encounters of the second kind, which is I
think how you would describe the Randall sham Forrest incident. Yeah,
that's it's an interesting It probably kind of fall in
between the first and the second. So the close encounters
of the second kind are not just sort of visual
sightings but also involve some kind of physical evidence. And

(27:11):
that's you know, again, it's not like a tail fin
being found, because we would know about that, right, that
would be a big deal. But it's things like burned
brush or their markings on the ground where something might
have might have landed. Sometimes people may get something that
looks like a sunburn or like scrapes or or what

(27:34):
have you. Um So that was one of the things
that with Rundall show is there did seem to be
some physical evidence in addition to the sightings, and that's there.
There looked like there might have been, um some marketings
on the ground where a thing might have landed or
sort of been rooted to the spot by some other forces.

(27:58):
And they saw some stuff through the knife and goggles
that that where the trees seem to glow and give
off some kind of emanation. It's it's kind of interesting
in that. Uh. The guy's guy Ian Redpath, who was
a astronomer and a journalist you know, he went and
talked to the forster who lived in reynolstom Force, a

(28:19):
guy whose name is improbably Vincent thurk Kettle, and uh
and then uh so Third Kettle like kind of comes up.
It's sort of like, well, you know, and I guess
we're not giving away what's sort of the large answer.
I get it, So I would leave you to for

(28:42):
the big story. You can listen to UM episode three eight.
But for instance, for these like supposed like landing spots,
he looks at He's like, look, that's those are like
squirrel diggings or rabbit diggings. You know, that's that's that's
what it looks like when a rabbit is digging for food,
it leaves these spots. It's not you know, an eight

(29:02):
thousand pounds you know, extraterrestrial craft landing. So yeah, maybe
he's just covering it up, you know. Part of it's Yeah,
that's one of my favorite observations where when it comes
to that close encounter kind which is a great question
that uh the there's this line where it may have

(29:26):
been Third Kettle or someone associated with him and says, yes,
they're broken branches in that area because that's in a
forest and forests have broken branches, which I thought was like,
I thought it was just enough snark, you know, to
to be the educational Forrester. But but one thing that's
interesting with this guy with Third Kettle is that he,

(29:49):
from what I understand, uh, he received a visit from
some folks before he himself was like made aware what
had happened. Uh, there's there's this incident. I think it's yeah,
it's December, of course, and he says that it was

(30:09):
later in December when some people came to ask him
some questions like almost men in black style, And what
he said is that you know, um, this the kind
of the same vibe he has throughout a lot of things. Uh,
he said, I I didn't know what they were talking about,

(30:31):
and then later I found out. And apparently he still
wasn't sure who those folks were, but I know who
they were. They were Majestic twelve for sure. There we go,
There we go. But I want to ask to because
there's there's another person that we could maybe introduce here

(30:52):
because we talked about talked about uh, we talked about halt.
How he doesn't uh, he doesn't shy away now or
you know later from his opinion of what he witnessed,
but he is, Uh, this is not a unanimous opinion
whether or not the storylines diverge. It appears there were

(31:13):
some Uh, there were some folks who were pretty skeptical. Um.
There was one that stood out to me, Colonel Ted Conrad,
who said that I'm just picking him as one example
of somebody who disputed the testimony of these of the
men who encountered these sightings. Do you feel that these

(31:36):
sightings get kind of shut down as a matter of
course in these sorts of investigations. I mean, given like
he said, project Blue Book closing down, given the fact
that it was heavily implied this might not be the
best thing for your career. Uh, Like, do you think
they were there were any fears of like recrimination or

(31:57):
ridicule when these guys are reporting this stuff the part
of the Air Force, on the part of these individuals,
on the part of these individuals reporting to their superior
My sense, and part of it comes from talking to
Jim mcgahey, who was also in the Air Force and
did some investigation of a zone on this stuff is

(32:19):
and also just from what you've seen the in the
official reaction is that nobody took it that seriously, right.
I think they thought, here are these guys, they saw something,
It's not something we have to worry about. And I think,
what what Conrad? If I'm remembering this correctly, you know,
part of what he really objects to is Halt in particular,

(32:43):
but Penistin and Burrows too sort of accusing them of
a cover up, and he's like, you know, you should
be ashamed to say that because you think something happened
and we didn't doesn't mean we're covering it up. It's
just you know, you're deluded and we aren't. I think
it's there is the Air Force his uh take on it.
So Peniston makes a comment, I don't know if it

(33:05):
made it to the to the series or not, where
afterwards he got he had sort of a guy who
sort of it was like his guardian angel in the
Air Force and kind of made sure that things went
well for him. Uh, And I think that was you know,
it wasn't really in exchange for for keeping quiet about things,

(33:25):
but it's served an acknowledgment that he had he had
experienced something that kind of went up, went above and
beyond what would be expected. Again, this is just something
he said, like I you know, I've got no confirmation
or evidence that it actually happened, but it was part
of this larger story that he tells about randelshow that
nobody else can confirm. Do locals in the area at

(33:49):
this time in in the early eighties do locals in
the area? Uh? Respond? How how do the civilians that
are living, you know, roughly nearby, how do they digest
or encounter the story of this sighting? As in like
when do they learn about it? Um or is it

(34:10):
treated skeptically? Is he treated the way the Air Force
has treated it? I guess you know, I I don't.
I don't know for sure. You know, in three when
it when it comes out in the in the London tabloids,
I think that would be the first time they would
hear about it. I don't know, like in the in
the years that immediately followed, what the feeling was. I
know there were some local people who are sort of

(34:31):
UFO interested to begin with, who you did some investigation
as you would expect, And now I guess it's another
way where it's a little bit like Britain's Roswell, where
it's you know, you hit all these anniversaries and their
stories about it, and there's still stories I and I
think I mentioned it in one of the episodes where
I was just going through like the last year's you know,

(34:52):
just doing a Google search on you know, British newspapers
and the last year's worth of rendalsome stories and there's
still you know, they're still coming up with with series
about what happened. And uh I was actually interviewed by
BBC Sussex I think about the podcast. So I think
there's still interests, but I think it's more as a

(35:13):
weird piece of local history more than we were we
were visited by aliens and maybe folklore at this point. Yeah. Absolutely.
One of the reasons I'm asking that is because what
we've found in cases like Roswell and in other cases
not even necessarily UFO related, ostensibly, we found that when

(35:36):
they happen in more isolated or slightly rural areas, that
locals tend to latch onto these things as a way
of sort of distinguishing their community or area, up to
and including creating a tourist industry. So that's that's why
I was asking what their consideration there was. Yeah, you know,

(35:59):
there is a you know, I believe bent Waters is
shut down and Woodbridge might be as well. But there
is like a UFO trail in Rendelssop Forest and they've
got a model of what you know, the craft was
described as. And you know, I think they have a
little plaque and stuff. But if you go if you
look at Rendlssom Forest UFO and on Google and you

(36:21):
go to the images, it's like kids climbing all over
this uh this model UFO. It's uh so that's I
think that's It's not like Roswell where they have you know,
UFO festivals and you know UFO theme parks or whatever.
I mean, I don't know exactly what Roswell has, but
I know that that's it's a UFO tourist destination. And

(36:42):
with that, we're going to take a quick break. We'll
be right back after a word from our sponsor and
we've returned. So I want to blow this out a
little bit more, even further just from the Rendelshop Forest incident,
because you you end up following so many trails as
you go throughout your season, you speak with these legendary

(37:06):
figures dude in in the world of UFO people that
we've been talking about and thinking about for a long time.
Perhaps personally for me, one of the most compelling people
you talked to is this guy named Richard C. Dody.
And when you hear that name, that might ring a bell.
We've discussed in before with regards to a documentary from

(37:28):
called Mirage Men to uh, some of the weird stuff
going on between I think it was Bill Moore and
oh gosh, who's the person that was like being fed
information from Paul Benewitz? My goodness. Okay, So there's this
whole like world of UFO lore that exists around this guy.

(37:49):
When you're talking to him, you just you describe him,
first of all as a former professional counter intelligence agent.
I want to know if there's anything that it didn't
make it into the podcast that he told you that
was just too extraordinary or you just couldn't believe, or
you're like, that's definitely just info, just anything that you

(38:09):
encountered that you didn't put in. Yeah. So I talked
to him for about two hours, and so there was
a lot of stuff, you know, and I kind of
signposted hopefully well enough, because I think a lot of
what he was telling me it was sort of consistent
and compatible with the disinformation that he'd been passing back
in the eighties, like he's not changing his story and saying, well,

(38:30):
I you know, it's it's um, this is this is
the reality, and this is what I was telling people.
He's continuing with those stories. I'll tell you the one
thing that I got. I wrestled with whether to put
this in, and I actually wrote half an episode about this,
and then I just decided agetting too far outside of
the scope. But um, I don't know if you guys

(38:52):
have covered this, but Projects Serpo do you know about this?
So I haven't done it on air, but yeah, I
have a passing awareness yet so so Project Serpo. And
I'm not gonna remember the name of the guy who
who ran this sort of UFO email list serve thing,
but he got he got this email from a guy
who was supposed to you know, quote unquote a government

(39:13):
insider who was leaking, according to him, information about this
this secret project. And it kind of goes it goes
way back to like the sort of context who it
goes way back to Roswell where they say, you know,
we recovered alive um alien called Eban I think it's

(39:35):
what they called him. And uh so they bring him
and and he's kept for a number of years, and
they recover communication device from one of the UFOs and
they get it back working again, and he communicates back
to his home planet and like asked him to come
and get him, and then they send a group to

(39:56):
come and get him. But but this this alien has
died in the in the meantime. But they come and
there's a meeting and there's an agreement put in place
where there's gonna be like this exchange program where we're
going to send twelve either military people are astronauts. It's
not entirely clear to me which back to this planet

(40:18):
where these aliens come from. And it's a planet that's
code named by US. I don't know if it's what
the aliens call it, but it's called Serpo. So in
the late sixties, I believe, I'm not gonna remember the
exact date, we send twelve people. I think it's ten
men and two women on this spaceship off to this planet,

(40:40):
sort of like Close Encounters. Right at the end of
Close Encounters where people getting on spaceship. So they go
there and apparently it's this planet that's largely sort of
these small communities. You know, it's it's got you know,
six d thousand residents or something. It's a little bit
smaller than Earth's got these small communities, although there is
like a central role government of some sort. And there's

(41:02):
this whole story about how they got into a war,
interplanetary war thousands of years ago and all this stuff. Anyway,
it's it's crazy, right, And then so two of the
people died on Surpo. Two decided they like Surpos so
much they were just going to stay there. So eight

(41:23):
return to Earth and Surpo is in the Zeta articularized system,
which has two sons. So apparently the radiation from two
sons caused like these tremendous health problems for the for
the astronauts who returned, and I think the last one
supposedly died in like the early two thousand's. But anyway,
so I Doty was telling me the story, and and

(41:47):
you know, I guess, not surprisingly, he's been kind of
accused of being the guy behind the story, and he
was saying, no, no, no, it wasn't me, it was
this other guy. And I went with Bill Moore and
we met with him, and he denied it, but it's
pretty clear or that it's him. But he said he
talked to dot He told me, you know, I talked
to my my sources, and they said, yeah, you know,

(42:07):
some of the some of the details are wrong, but
the basics of the story that we sent astronauts to
this planet, Serpo and then they came back and all
this stuff. He's like that that's all accurate, Like that's
that's all based on truth. Um, what what? Yeah? But
I guess one of those you know, it's interesting and

(42:29):
then you're like, Okay, so you're a disinformation agent and
this is what you're laying on me, right, And I
think it's you know, it's it's in the context of
when he was first putting that stuff out there and
what what people believed at the time, and especially these
like people who are deep, deep, deep into the UFO culture, right,

(42:53):
what would they believe? And then I think like pushing
it to extremes because you want people to believe that
they have like the absolute insider knowledge of of what's
going on. That that's the whole My whole question is
leading up to why what advantage does that kind of
disinformation give to the United States government, because that's where

(43:16):
it would be originating, originating from, right, an agent of
the intelligence community of the United States government. Why would
they give that kind of thing to the UFO community
of all places. Yeah, So two things. One is Doughty
was very clear that like anything he did was coming
from above, right, Like he wasn't coming up with these
things and sending him on like he would get a

(43:37):
mission and information. So it was it was being manufactured
by you know, probably Air Force intelligence. You know, I
think that's that's sort of the question is why did
they do it this way? I think it's pretty clear that, um,
you know, this is again it's during the Cold War
when a lot of this stuff was going on late seventies, eighties,

(44:00):
early nineties, I guess early nineties as past the Cold War,
but late seventies, early mid eighties, and there was concern
that because a lot of sort of UFO hunters were going,
you know, to to Groom Lake, uh and like going
up on these ridges and taking pictures and looking through
binoculars and what's going on in other Air Force bass

(44:24):
and there was concerned that what they were getting was
genuinely you know, top secret test craft including the stealth
the stealth planes, and they were concerned that that particularly
the Russians had infiltrated the UFO community, and we're trying
to get whatever information they could from those people who
were sort of observing these bases as intelligence. So what

(44:48):
their plan was will muddy the waters by putting in disinformation?
I mean, I think there's some question about why they
put in the disinformation they actually did, especially with Paul Benowitz,
which is another story get into in the podcast, seems
sort of unnecessarily cruel. I guess, you know, they really
took advantage of this guy who I think pretty clearly

(45:10):
had mental health concerns, and they just exacerbated them, you know,
rather than putting them at ease. Yeah. Yeah, there's there's
the question of ethics right in this kind of counterintelligence operation.
I think also just personally, it's got some big these
kinds of disinfo stories, if this info they are, they

(45:31):
have these big suppressed screenwriter vibes, you know what I mean,
Like this somebody when somebody got their job at the
Air Force, right because they dropped out of film school,
and then they go and uh, they need to have
a good thing to muddy the waters, so they're like,

(45:51):
I remember my sophomore college script sata reticuli. Yeah, like
that's the I see how that could happen. I completely
agree with your point about the unnecessary cruelty, but I
think it's also a very very good point about the
strange game of bluff against bluff that occurred during the

(46:15):
Cold War, especially when we know that, if not the majority,
at least a minority of alleged UFO sidings later turned
out to be I wouldn't say solidly confirmed to be
secret craft man made, but we're there's compelling evidence, you know,
that people were seeing self bombers and saying this is

(46:37):
a UFO. It makes me think it really brings the
conversation kind of around to the present in my mind,
with this uh somewhat underwhelming disclosure document that the government
put out. I mean, there's some fun stuff in there
that uh kind of it really brings up more questions
than it gives answers in terms of like the whole
category of like secret corporate things, like what does that

(46:59):
even consist of? It's so vague it's almost laughable. But um,
I do think that the whole like oh it was
like under development government tech that the public isn't aware
of yet. I think that's been aligned for quite a
long time. And I'm just wondering what you made of
that document, if you were underwhelmed, if it like kind
of like brought up new ideas for you or new

(47:20):
areas to pursue, or if it just kind of felt
like a bit of a deflating moment. That's a great question,
because I was sort of hoping, you know. I I
started working on all this stuff, and we had we
had the timeline UH down before we kind of knew
what was going to happen with that report. But when
the time of the report came, I was like, this

(47:42):
is gonna be great because I'm spending this whole UH
season kind of talking about the development of of the
UFO folklore and what we think we know about UFOs,
and then this report is going to come out and
I can kind of tie up the series by by
looking at the report and talking about how the assumptions
that we've we've kind of built up over the decades

(48:04):
kind of play into this report and the way we
kind of interpreted and understand it. And then the thing
came out and it's like, what am I supposed to
do with this, you know, it's just not enough. They're
they're to kind of tie back to all these other
things that we were talking about. So, you know, I
think it's not surprising that what you got wasn't definitive

(48:27):
in any way, and that it was just you know,
I mean, in some ways, it seemed to me like
the kind of thing that you put out when you
don't really want to do it, and you're just like,
you know, let's just let's just get this thing done,
and I want to put it out there. So nobody's
given me that much of a hard time. So I'm
just gonna kinda tow the line the government equivalent of

(48:48):
writing an essay about why I refused to write this essay. Yeah, yeah, no,
I thought that's I was like, you know, in tenth grade,
you know, if if I had to write something so anyway, UM,
you need to get Falcon on the phone, Toby. Yeah. Yeah,
So I don't know. I I read it and I
was just sort of underwhelmed, and I thought what would

(49:11):
be interesting was to see how the different sides tried
to kind of stake out that this was sort of
confirmatory or at least didn't uh disconfirm what their beliefs were.
But quite honestly, and and this is from admittedly like
a small sample size of like people who I follow
on Twitter and websites I check, it seemed like after

(49:34):
a little bit of of conversation, like it all just
kind of died away. You know. I think I think
people there wasn't enough meat there to really sustain much
of a discussion, so I think people just kind of
moved on. It feels by design though, that it died away,
you know, like there was all this hoopla around it
and all this kind of build up, and then the
thing came out and it's like, well, this is all

(49:55):
kind of stuff we've already been talking about for a while.
It's not really much new conversation to add. Um, So
it makes sense, And you're right, Banning, that's a really
good analogy. It's like a book report by someone who
totally didn't want to write a book report. Um. But
I wonder if that's by design and if you know,
we talked about on the episode where we covered this
document that there's definitely a much larger, broader report that

(50:19):
we will never see. Um, what do you think in
that one. Yeah, that that's an interesting question. I don't
know if it would be, like I do I cover
in in this season the Robertson and the Condon Reports,
which are sort of the two big reports that came
out of Project Blue Book, And what they did, especially
the Condon Report, was to take a look at, you know,

(50:40):
specific cases that you know had sort of confounded people
and try to get to the bottom of what it
actually was. And you know, there are a few that
they said like, we can't explain this, right. So I
don't know if they went to that to that level
where it was things like like the limits, uh stuff,

(51:02):
whether they did sort of deeper dive into that and
and you know, got whatever documents they could and and
show them to scientists and try to come to some
kind of conclusion. Like I would kind of hope that
would be what they would do. Like, I don't know
what else you would spend your your money on, um
if it's not to take a look at legitimately hard

(51:23):
to explain cases. And of course the government you know,
likes to sort of interrogate its own processes, so that
might be another aspect to it, is what are we doing,
like how are we collecting this data, what are we
doing with this data, who's analyzing it, who's getting the
results of that analysis? Uh, that kind of stuff. But

(51:45):
like when somebody in the Pentagon, you know, gets this
mandate from Congress, it's like, we want to know everything
you know about UFOs. Like I think, depending on whose
desk it falls on, some people are gonna be like,
oh my god, are you serious, Like I have to
spend my time on this, And then there'll be other
people who would be like, all right, right on, Like

(52:06):
I I've been wondering about that myself. I mean, you
know the past people. Yeah, you know, it just depends
on who gets it. I would say, you know, when
one excellent point you just made, Toby, that I agree
with Toli is is the love of self examination of
methodology and process. Because a lot that the short public

(52:30):
UAP report, a great deal of it, as as we
all know, is is about methodology and equating to if
you guys really want us to do this, then we
need more money and uh. And that's it's funny because
I spoke with some friends and government and they said,
you know, that's pretty common actually, and the most mundane

(52:52):
of reports. If you ask people like to measure water
levels in an estuary, part of their responses going to be, uh,
you know point bullet point seven. Also, we need more
money and more time to do this. Uh So that's
while that struck some people as odd, it's very much,
um apparently a standard operating procedure. It's a known thing,

(53:16):
like a format of an essay. But when when we
talk about this, one of the questions that I want
to ask you specifically about this story, which is, in
my opinion right now, the best most in depth and
objective examination of the Rendel Sham Forrest incident, what do

(53:36):
you think comes next? Like you know you I appreciate
you said, like there's this almost cyclical or dare I
say seasonal reporting right in at least British news. Um,
do you see do you see it linking with other things?
As Matt said, there are a lot of webs tracing

(53:57):
tracing away from this story right different rabbit holes. Um
where what what would you like the audience too? What
would you like them to take away from this thing
that you know, Honestly, unless you're a UFO enthusiasts, or
unless you live in the United Kingdom, you you will

(54:19):
probably not have near as much awareness of this as
you will after hearing Strange Rival season two. So where
where where do you think this goes? And what do
what do you we hope people get from this? So? Uh,
you know, I think there's two things. One is this
is part of like the larger theme of this season,

(54:41):
which is, how does what we know about UFOs? How
did how did we get this information? Right? What are
the folklore processes? Which is not to say the folklore again,
not to use that as a like it's a fairy tale,
but it's like it's it's information you're getting from from
sort of non official sources, right, And so how did

(55:03):
this develop? And I think what's what's interesting about rendal
ship and a lot of UFO stuff is that you know,
you have multiple stories, right from the people who encountered it.
You've got stories that vary somewhat, and you've got the
skeptical explanation, which you know varies a lot from them.

(55:25):
So in these situations where none of these explanations are
taken as being the explanation, right, that's where stories you
can kind of morph and take on a life of
their own right. And you'll see that and that's kind
of what I try and and demonstrate at the beginning

(55:45):
of this series, is that because there isn't any settled
upon narrative as as being the truth, that the story
grows in these different ways and it branches off in
different ways. And then because the the UFO stuff, so
you know, it's such a network and there's these people
who are involved in different parts of it and stuff. Um,

(56:06):
like I did, I brought up I asked Richard Dody
about about Rendel Shum and he kind of said, you know,
he heard about it, and he took a look at
the files and he talked to some people he knew,
and it seemed legit to him, right, so he's adding
whatever authority he has to this story. But I didn't

(56:28):
follow up because again this was a major part of
our conversation. But I kind of wanted to ask which story,
right are you? Are you lending your your voice to
Peniston story or to Halt story or to Burrows story? Um,
because there you know, in some cases, uh, they rule

(56:48):
each other out, like you can't you can't believe both.
So like in the end, I kind of took a
look at Rendal Shum as being sort of Writt Small
like this larger process by which um and the way
I wanted to start it to kind of give you
an idea of where I was hoping to head, but
we couldn't get the rights is uh is. There was

(57:11):
a Jimmy Kimmel had a MoMA on uh this one time,
and you know, they're talking and he said, I can't
remember exactly how it came up, but he said, Kimmel says,
if I was president, like, as soon as we were
done getting sworn in, I'd like run off the stage
and go back to the White House and I'd ask

(57:31):
somebody like get me. I want to know what's going
on in Area fifty one and uh, you know, the
whole the chlorade laughs. And Obama was like, well, that's
just another reason why you won't be president and uh yeah,
And I was thinking, you know what's interesting about that
is nobody has to be explained what Area fifty one is, right,
even if you don't care a thing about UFOs, It's

(57:53):
just ubiquitous in the culture, and it brings with it
certain certain you know lots about government cover ups and
alien technology and and all this stuff. And it's like,
how did we get here right, How did because the
government hasn't put out anything saying this is what's going on,
it's all through these sort of informal channels. I don't

(58:16):
want to spoil this for anybody listening right now, but
you have to listen to Is it the last episode
or is it the penultimate episode where Chris Carter and
Glenn Morrigan. Yeah, second to last, Okay, so there. I
think it's Glenn Morgan's explanation of how he would write
plots for some of the X Files episodes, which mirror

(58:38):
how a lot of the unexplainable or unprovable conspiracy theories
that have developed over the years come about. Where there
are two truths that do exist, you can find them,
they're researchable, they they are real. Then you put something
in the middle of them that's a lie or something
you make up, and you connect it all together in
saying I think he calls it a sandwich or oreo

(59:00):
or cooking or whatever exactly, and he just discusses how
every episode of X Files a show which informed me
and countless others about this subject even though it's not real,
but it forms the for the folklore around UFOs and
a lot of these subjects um that is mirrored with

(59:20):
conspiracy theories that are popping up from all quarters of
the earth about all various different kinds of subjects. Uh.
It's the same way X Files are written. Anyway, Just
it blew my mind. Highly recommend you check out that
episode as you're listening through, you know, just an addition
to being able to talk to Chris Carter and Glenn
Morrigan about the work they did. What I what I

(59:42):
thought was interesting about the X Files and and and
some of the other UH media about UFOs, but especially
that because I think that's, you know, that's the biggest,
most influential show. Like this is the way that it
it both takes f um the existing UFO folklore as

(01:00:02):
source material and then outputs this fictionalized version of it
that people come to sort of internalized as sort of
the new folklore. Right, So I think it's like this
interesting uh process. And Glenn actually talks about It's an

(01:00:24):
episode he does about um ice cores in in the Arctic.
I think, where they where they find these worms and
and what happens and then he says that, you know,
years afterwards, people are like, oh, yeah, I read the
article about that. You got that idea from in Glens
Like there was no article. I just made it up
and like, oh no, man, it was a national geographic.

(01:00:44):
I read it and uh, and so that. But that's
how that stuff enters enters the realm, right, It's like
you hear it and you don't you remember the story,
you don't remember where it came from, and you you
kind of process it as, oh, yeah, this thing I
read about something that happened, which can be a bad thing.

(01:01:05):
I mean, and you know it's not always. You know,
it's can certainly lead to people spreading things that aren't
backed in science at all. But I think it's really
interesting you point that up, because you know, science fiction
at its best, oftentimes as prescient, you know, oftentimes has
sort of this forward thinking um attitude behind it. The
things that are ultimately pulled out of the minds of

(01:01:25):
these amazing creators do come to pass in some ways.
And I think X files does a great job of
kind of building on that folklore and almost at times
like making it these like weird cautionary tales about you know,
certain things in society. It's interesting, but you know, you're right.
I think the way you've built Strange Arrivals as this
kind of like, I don't know, it's a really interesting

(01:01:45):
thesis about UFO reports being this new oral tradition that's
kind of passed down and kind of gives personality and
character to these like small kind of off the map locations.
And UM, I think it's really really well done and
really thoughtful, and H really enjoy the show very much.
Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, well, this is and

(01:02:06):
this is something that I've I've also been super interested in.
You know, we we've got previous episodes on the ways
in which, um, the ways in which stories of change
leans in Europe centuries and centuries ago match pretty much
one to one with stories of alien abductions, history, folklore. Uh,

(01:02:27):
these traditions, they are reciprocal. They are two way street
fiction and fact talked together to get their story straight.
And this is uh, this is an amazing process uh
to be have to say, I I was floored by
Strange Arrivals season one, and just between just between us
and everybody listening, I guess I I thought, can can

(01:02:52):
this lightning in a bottle happen again? With season two?
And Over the Moon not a UFO but over the
moon to say that is very much the case, and
we hope that we've given you just enough of a
taste that you will immediately pause this episode and go
straight to your podcast platform of choice for Strange Arrivals

(01:03:14):
season two. I believe the entirety of the show is
out now as our fellow conspiracy realists are hearing this,
But there's a ton of bonus content coming to right toy. Yeah,
there'll be a bunch of full interviews with like Chris
Carter and Glenn Morrigan, and I'm not gonna put the
whole tote so I can share some choice bits with

(01:03:39):
you guys. There's not enough like parts, you know. I
would just hate for somebody to jump into it, like
fifteen minutes in and be like, oh my god, I
can't believe that we're sending people to the planet Serpo
without me like being able to sign posts that. You know,
you've got to take all this with a huge grain
of assault. Full disclosure, everybody. I am listed as an

(01:04:01):
executive producer on this show, but I had exactly point
zero five percent to do with it. Uh, just awesome, man,
big fan, As as somebody who barely touched it likewise. Uh,
full disclosure, I think Nolan and I both are just
big fans here. We're civilians on this one. But Toby,
thank you so much for becoming one of our returning

(01:04:24):
guests on this show. Today. We're only partially joking about
Saturday Night Live rules. So I think by the time
you're on here five times, there is some legal requirement
for us to get you a cool jacket. Uh. Nice.
And in the meantime, while we're waiting for that, where
can people go to learn more about your work with

(01:04:46):
strange arrivals and also your other persons? Um? Well? Uh?
Probably the best places Twitter, which is at at Toby
ball n h Um. My website has been sadly neglected
based on all the other stuff I've doing. Uh, but
that's the that's the best place you can Also, you
can also search my name on Amazon. You can find
out more about my books there. And if you find

(01:05:08):
yourself online. Uh. And you would like to follow up
with us as well, we would love to hear your feedback,
your opinion about Randelship Forrest incident and related incidents. What
actually happened that December in the early nineteen eighties. Let
us know your take We try to be easy to
find online. You can find us on the Internet at

(01:05:30):
conspiracy Stuff on Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube. You can find
us on Instagram at Conspiracy Stuff Show. And Hey, while
you're on the internet, why not swoop on over to
Apple Podcasts and leave us a five star review and
then also go over to Strange Arrivals and do the
same because it is absolutely worthy of all five of
those stars, if not more. Um, and if you want
to not be on the Internet, you can give us

(01:05:51):
telephone call. That's right, we have a phone number. It
is one eight three three st d w y t K.
When you call, you've got three minutes. Please give yourself
a cool nickname that isn't your real name, so Richard C.
Doughtie doesn't know who you really are. Yeah, seriously, Um,
say anything you want to. If you've got anything person

(01:06:12):
will say to us or for the show, leave it
right at the end. That would be wonderful. If you've
got more to say, then you can fit into that
three minutes. If you've got some links or some maybe
books or anything you want to tell us about, you
can send us a good old fashioned email. We are
conspiracy at I Heeart Radio dot com stuff they don't

(01:06:48):
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