Bacon's Rebellion, Part 2

Last time, we talked about the many reasons Virginia colonists were frustrated by the 1670s, including the price of tobacco, taxation, and disparities between the richest colonists and everyone else. But another issue actually sparked the rebellion. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey everybody. Before we start today's episode, we wanted to
let you know that Stuff you Missed in History Class
has been nominated for a Webby Award this year. We've
been nominated for Best Writing in the Podcast category. You
can vote by going to Webby Awards dot com. Welcome
to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of

(00:20):
I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hello, and welcome to
the podcast. I'm Tracy V. Wilson and I'm Holly Fry.
Today we're going to get to the actual fighting part
of Bacon's rebellion. And if you have not listened to
our previous episode, which did not it included some off

(00:43):
screen fighting in the form of things like the Anglo
Dutch Wars, but uh, that one did not have as
much direct conflict. And if you have not listened to
that one, this one might make sense on a very
basic level. But there is just there's so much context
for this incident that we are not covering. We're not
going to repeat all those things today, so I recommend

(01:05):
the other one before this one. And last time, we
talked about the many reasons Virginia colonists were frustrated by
the sixteen seventies many of which were connected to the
price of tobacco, taxation, and disparities between the richest and
most prominent colonists and basically everyone else. But none of
those issues were the spark that started the rebellion. Instead,

(01:27):
it was the difference between how the colony was responding
to native people and how the colonists thought the colony
should respond. The treaty that had ended the Third Anglo
Palatan War had drawn a clear boundary between the colony
and the Palatin Confederacy, but as more colonists came to Virginia,
they started moving closer and closer to that line, and

(01:48):
then eventually across it into what was supposed to be
the Confederacy's territory. Also, not every tribe and nation in
the area was a party to this treaty. The Poetan
Confederacy was an alliance of Algonquin speaking tribes, but not
every Algonquin tribe was part of the confederacy, and Algonquin
speaking tribes were not the only tribes in the region.

(02:10):
In terms of just the tribes that were either part
of or affected by Bacon's rebellion in some way, there
were at least twelve representing three different language groups. And
that is also there were more than twelve tribes and
nations in the area. That's that's I cannot stress enough that,
like North America, was a hugely diverse place with a

(02:30):
lot of individual tribes and nations long before Europeans ever
got to it. So in my sixteen seventy five, most
of the colonists in Virginia's more inland areas were really
wary of the native people, and some of them felt
threatened by their proximity. This was especially true after they
started hearing about King Philip's War, which had started in

(02:52):
New England that year. Others just thought the native people
were in the way of colonial expansion, or that the
College and He's trade with Native nations was taking opportunities
away from Europeans. Native people also became scapegoats for a
lot of the colonists frustrations that just did not have
anything to do with them, with some colonists even going

(03:13):
so far as blaming some kind of native sorcery for
bad weather that ruined the tobacco crop. Regardless of their
exact motivations, though, the prevailing sentiment among the colonists was
that the native population needed to go. In July of
sixty five, members of the Algonquin speaking Doeg people were

(03:34):
caught up in an ongoing trading dispute with Virginia planter
Thomas Matthews. Eventually, several Doeg's rated Matthew's plantation, and Matthew's
herdsman killed at least one of them before dying of
his own injuries. This led to a series of back
and forth retaliations between the colonists and the Doegs, which
ultimately involved the Virginia Militia and at times crossed into

(03:57):
neighboring Maryland. It was across the border in Maryland that
the militia wrongly attacked a completely different tribe who had
nothing to do with this situation. This was the Iroquois
speaking Susquehannas. The militia killed fourteen Susquehanna hunters, attacking them
while they were asleep in a cabin. The Doeg hunters

(04:17):
that the militia was actually trying to go after, was
in a different cabin that was not far away. The
Susquehannas had previously maintained an alliance with the Virginia Colony,
but they couldn't just allow the killing of fourteen people
to go unanswered. They killed two colonists, along with killing
some livestock and destroying crops before contacting Governor Berkeley to

(04:38):
negotiate for peace. Berkeley did not want another large scale
war with the native population. He thought that it would
be expensive and destructive, and that it would disrupt a
profitable fur trade that he had established with some of
the region's tribes. He was also concerned that a violent
confrontation with one tribe might unite others in the area

(05:00):
against the colonists, regardless of whether they were allies or
enemies before that point. But the colonists and many of
the militia had no patience for caution. They wanted the
perceived native threat to be removed entirely. A volunteer militia
continued to attack Native people without much regard at all
for who they were actually fighting, and they lay siege

(05:21):
to Afford, where the Susquehannics had taken refuge. When several
Susquehanna leaders left under a flag of truce to try
to negotiate with the governor, the militia killed them, and
this led to an outright war between the Susquehannas and
the colony. Yeah, Berkeley and this whole scenario. Berkeley is
the person that like differentiated the idea that there were

(05:45):
multiple different Native people's and that they were not one monolith. Uh.
Not necessarily because he was magnanimous or enlightened, but because
he was the person that was responsible for maintaining a
lot of these relationships. But the colonists, as a general rule,
thought that like all Native people were the same and
needed to be treated the same, and the same treatment

(06:08):
in this case was to get rid of them. And
that's where Nathaniel Bacon Jr. Finally comes into this picture
after more than one entire episode about the rebellion name
for him. He was twenty nine years old and he
had arrived in the colony a couple of years before.
He was also Governor Berkeley's cousin by marriage, and he
had been given a seat on the Governor's council because

(06:28):
of that family connection in his family's prominence, but he
was also kind of a troublemaker. He had married a
woman without her father's consent, and then he had allegedly
tried to cheat a neighbor in England out of his inheritance.
So his father, Nathaniel Bacon Senior, had paid for his
son to go to Virginia and the hope that he
would maybe gain some maturity and some wisdom there. Ah

(06:52):
should be obvious that's not what happened. Spoiler alert, not
so much. One of the younger Bacon's plantations was at
the head of the Orc River, and it was there
that a native fighting force it is not clear from
which tribe killed his overseer and one of his servants.
Bacon swore to avenge their deaths. A growing volunteer militia

(07:12):
made up of free farmers, European and African, indentured workers
and enslaved Africans made him its leader. Yeah. The the
makeup of that militia is why we spent so much
time talking about indentured workers and enslaved people in the
previous episode, because they all united together as part of
this force. In seventeen o four, historian Robert Beverly described

(07:34):
this militia and Bacon's involvement this way quote. At first
they flocked together, tumultuously, running in troops from one plantation
to another without a head, until at last the seditious
humor of Colonel Nathaniel Bacon led him to be of
the party. This gentleman had been brought up at one
of the ends of court in England. He had a

(07:55):
moderate fortune. He was young, bold, active of an inviting aspect,
and powerful elocution. In a word, he was in every
way qualified to head a giddy and unthinking multitude. We're
going to talk about what the giddy and unthinking multitude
did after we first paused for a sponsor break. Nathaniel

(08:24):
Bacon Jr. Was one of the many Virginia colonists who
thought that the native population needed to be eliminated entirely,
and his own words, one of his goals was quote
not only to ruin and extirpate all Indians in general,
but all manner of trade and commerce with them. But
this wasn't just Bacon and the rebels attacking native people.

(08:46):
The tribes themselves already had their own conflicts and divisions,
and Bacon took advantage of those conflicts to wage his campaign.
As one example, as a situation between the Susquehannics and
the colonists had become more violent, the Susquehannics had needed
to increase their numbers, so they pressured the members of

(09:07):
other nearby nations described in records from the time as
Monacan and an Electin to join them at their fort. Meanwhile,
another tribe, the Okanici, saw the conflict between the Susquehannas
and the colonists as an opportunity to get rid of
one of their rivals for territory and trade. The okan
Echis colluded with the colonists and with the Monacan and

(09:29):
an Electin, who all attacked the Susquehannics inside the fort
where they were staying. Yeah, the okan Echi has made
almost h like a Trojan Horse kind of situation where
they persuaded these people who were taking shelter with the
Susquehanna tow to rise up against them from within. But uh,
the Okanicis having done this did not lead the colonists

(09:51):
to form some kind of ongoing alliance with them or
to offer them any sort of protection. When the okan
Echis went back to Bacon with news of their victory
over the Susqua Hannock's, Bacon's force attacked them too, killing
more than a hundred people and destroying their primary village.
After all of these events, the surviving Oknicies and Susquehannocks

(10:11):
each separately fled toward North Carolina. Meanwhile, Governor Berkeley, who
had warned Bacon that his actions constituted mutiny, ejected Bacon
from his council and declared him an outlaw. Then he
dissolved the House of Burgesses and called for a new election,
and proposed that when the new assembly convened, it should
call for a new colonial governor. In this election, Henrico

(10:33):
County elected Nathaniel Bacon is one of its burgesses. It's
not clear how many of the votes came from people
who legitimately agreed with his methods, though I mean he
had a lot of support among the like the poor
farmers and the indentured people and the enslaved people. He
did not have a lot of support among the rich people,
who at this point were the ones who could vote.

(10:56):
But there wasn't a printing press in Jamia at this time,
so news was spread by somebody carrying a message physically
into town and reading the message out loud at the
courthouse steps. Bacon's militia and Henrico County had prevented the
messenger from reading the proclamation that had declared him an outlaw,
so it's possible that people voting in this election didn't

(11:17):
even know about it, and it's also possible that his
militia intimidated voters on election day. When Bacon arrived to
join the Assembly on June six, sixty six, he was
captured and forced to apologize and denounce his actions before
he was allowed to take his seat. After he had
done that, he was also restored to the Governor's council. Then,

(11:38):
Bacon asked for a commission in the army that the
Assembly had decided to raise to fight the Susquehannics. The
Assembly denied him this request, and after some arguing about it,
the governor ejected him from the council that he had
just been reinstated too. So Bacon left and then on
June twenty three, he came back to Jamestown with five
hundred armed men. They surround founded the building where the

(12:01):
Assembly was meeting, and then Bacon threatened them in an
extremely dramatic confrontation that culminated with the governor baring his
chest and daring Bacon to shoot him. Bacon did not
shoot him, but he did manage to extort the commission
that he wanted from the Assembly. In general, the Assembly

(12:21):
did not think fondly of Bacon at all, but he
had the building surrounded with fusiliers. Not only did they
make him commander in chief of the army, but they
also pardoned him for everything that he had done since
the start of March. And with that, Bacon left again
to continue fighting. Yeah, he managed to extort a whole
lot of stuff out of the Assembly that day. The

(12:42):
Assembly went on meeting after he left and adjourned on June,
and by that point had passed a whole series of
reforms to try to address some of the issues that
had become sources of frustration. These reforms required, for example,
that the office of sheriff be rotated annually, so one
person could not become sheriff and stay there forever and

(13:03):
abuse his power. The new laws also forbade people from
holding multiple offices at once. That came up in our
episode on the regulator wars, where one person would be
like the register of deeds and the sheriff and some
other thing like this was happening in Virginia two. The
Assembly also addressed some of the colonists frustration with taxes

(13:24):
and fees. They abolished the tax exemption that had applied
to members of the Governor's Council, and they banned two
people who had reputations for abusing their power from ever
holding public office again. The Assembly also repealed that sixteen
seventy act that had disenfranchised landless people, so they restored
lots of people's rights to vote. Meanwhile, as the Army's

(13:45):
commander in chief, Bacon continued his indiscriminate fighting against the
native people of the Chesapeake Bay Area. He also made
exorbitant requests for funding for his fighting force. This led
Governor Berkeley to denounce him as a rebel and a
tree leader again, which led Bacon to issue a manifesto
of his own denouncing the governor. Strangely, a whole lot

(14:06):
of the grievances spelled out in Bacon's manifesto were things
that had just been addressed by the Assembly. He wrote
a whole lot about unjust taxes and about the governor
of playing favorites with his judicial appointments. The several of
the points that he made were literally things that had
just been reversed by the Assembly. And then, of course
there's also a lot about the Native people. Bacon cites

(14:29):
the Native involvement in the beaver trade as a problem,
and he denounces the governor quote for having protected, favored,
and emboldened the Indians against his Majesty's loyal subjects, never contriving, requiring,
or appointing any do or proper means of satisfaction for
their many invasions, robberies, and murders committed upon us. The

(14:52):
manifesto also criticizes Governor Berkeley for having pulled the English
army back from the fight, leaving the Native people, to
quote bur Spoil and murther, I really like all the
murdering that he talks about. Having thus denounced the Governor
at length, Bacon turned the army against the Pamunkey tribe.
Not only had the Pamunkey been allied with the Colony

(15:15):
since the end of the Third Anglo poet In War,
but they had also signed a treaty with the Colony
just a few months before, after its leader Kakakoeski, had
agreed to provide about a dozen men for the Colony's
war effort. Bacon's force massacred at least fifty members of
the tribe and captured others. From there, Bacon turned his
attention toward trying to track down the governor, who had

(15:37):
left the capital of Jamestown. To try to recruit more
men for a fighting force of his own. Bacon had
a small navy which found and attacked the governor's fleet
on Virginia's eastern shore. That's that little strip of land
in northeast Virginia that's separated from the rest by Chesapeake Bay.
The governor and his loyalist force won this battle, and

(15:58):
they hanged several of Bacon's officers. Then both Bacon and
Berkeley started moving back towards Jamestown. Berkeley got there first
on September eight, but then Bacon arrived and lay siege
to the city for ten days, at which point Berkeley
and those still loyal to him fled. The rebels burned
Jamestown on September nineteen. As Bacon started to gain the

(16:20):
upper hand, more and more prominent Virginians started taking his
side in the dispute. With Jamestown destroyed, Bacon went back
to the Virginia frontier to try to search for any
Native people that they hadn't already fought, and some of
his force went on the hunt for people who were
loyal to the governor. These two forces probably would have
done a whole lot more damage. But then Bacon died

(16:43):
on October six, seventy six, of what was described as
the Bloody Flux. This is probably a combination of Typhus
and Dysenterry. A day later, having no idea of Bacon's death,
King Charles the Second issued a proclamation ordering that the
rebellion be put down. It took about two more months
of heavy fighting for the governor to finally regain control

(17:05):
of the colony. For much of November, rebel forces controlled
nearly all of the colony outside the eastern Shore, but
in the end, after huge casualties on both sides, Governor
Berkeley did manage to regain control of the colony. In
addition to the people killed in the fighting, Berkeley executed
twenty three of the rebellion's leaders. He also confiscated land

(17:28):
and corn for many of the ones who had survived,
and then he returned to Jamestown on January sixteen sixty seven.
A week later, three commissioners who had been dispatched from
England at the end of the previous year arrived. After
the proclamation from the King. Francis Morrison, Sir John Barry,
and Colonel Herbert Jeffreys had been sent to put down

(17:49):
the rebellion and to investigate what happened, and they had
about one thousand soldiers with him by that point. Though
the rebellion was over, this whole investigation was a frustrating
and rasment for Berkeley. He was about seventy years old
and he had lost most of his hearings, so the
questioning was difficult and it tended to escalate into both
sides shouting at each other. But instead of being praised

(18:12):
for restoring order, Berkeley was being investigated, and the investigation
found that his treatment of the rebels that he had
put into play with all the hangings and confiscations was
overly harsh. As the commissioners were leaving, there was one
last incident described by one of the commissioner's clerks as
quote the occasion of the scandalous postilion. Governor Berkeley's wife, Francis,

(18:33):
had arranged a carriage to take the commissioners back to
their barge. As they approached the carriage, an African man
replaced the coaches postilion. That was someone who rode along
as a guide, and in this case may have also
been the coaches driver, which wasn't entirely clear. The commissioners,
having seen this happen, declined to get into the carriage,
apparently they did not want to ride in the carriage

(18:56):
that had just been given an African postilion, but the
carriage followed them all the way to the river anyway.
The commissioners later learned that this replacement postilion was one
of the colonies hangman. It's possible that he wasn't really
the hangman, but that this was a rumor. If it
was a rumor, it was definitely a rumor that they believed.

(19:17):
So there is a lot going on with this story,
including that an African man was presumably entrusted with executing
Europeans in the colony, and that the governor's wife seems
to have arranged this as a spectacle to insult the commissioners.
Historian Susan Westbury argued in the two thousand four paper
that this was an example of Frances putting her political

(19:37):
power as the governor's wife to use to try to
support her husband. Probably did not help things. Though her
husband was removed from office, he was summoned back to
England to answer for what he had done, But then
he died on July night, six seventy seven, before he
had had the chance to give his account to the King.
We have other accounts, though, including one written by a

(19:58):
Mrs Ann Cotton in sixty eight six. Thomas Matthews, whose
dispute with the doeg had helped start this whole thing,
also wrote an account of it thirty years later at
the request of the First Earl of Oxford, Robert Harley,
who at the time it was written with Secretary of
State under Queen Anne. It's a mostly straightforward account, ending
with Matthew's opinion that Bacon and his supporters were quote wheels,

(20:21):
agitated by the weight of his former and present resentments
after their cohler was raised up to a very high
pitch at having been so long and so often trifled with,
on their humble supplications to the Governor for his immediate
taking in hand the most speedy means towards stopping the
continued effusions of so much English blood from time to

(20:42):
time by the Indians. In other words, a bunch of
frustrated people were mad at the governor for ignoring their
request to stop the native people, but it's so much
more florid the other way. The king and his ministers
repealed most of the reforms that had been passed by
the sixteen seventy six Assembly. So from that perspective, a

(21:04):
lot of things went back to the way they were before.
But at the same time, a lot changed in Virginia
after this rebellion, and we're going to get to all
of that after we have one more break from one
of the sponsors that keeps the show going. After Bacon's

(21:25):
rebellion was over, England negotiated a new treaty with several
of the native tribes that had been affected by it,
and this became known as the Treaty of Middle Plantation,
which was signed on May sixteen, seventy seven. It acknowledged
that all this fighting had started with quote violent intrusions
made by the colonists against the tribes. The tribes who

(21:46):
signed this treaty gave up their sovereignty and became subjects
of the monarch in exchange for peace and protection. Under
the terms of this treaty, each quote Indian king and
queen had equal power to govern their own people, while
also giving kaka Koweski, described in the treaty as the
queen of Monkey authority over several other tribes. At least

(22:07):
one of these tribes refused to be placed under her leadership.
Though yeah, this was these were tribes that had previously
been sort of under the jurisdiction of the Monkey, and
they were like, we we were free of that. We
don't need to go back to that anymore. Under the
Treaty of Middle Plantation, the native parties to the treaty
were supposed to pay three arrows per year along with

(22:28):
twenty beaver skins, and they were given the right to hunt,
to fish, and to gather. They were supposed to have
adequate land available to them, and they also had to
agree to side with the colony against quote foreign Indians
who were not party to the treaty if there was
some kind of violent conflict with them. Overall, this document
seems to attempt to treat fairly with the native people's

(22:49):
but at the same time it did require the ones
that had not already become tributaries to the English to
give up their sovereign team. And as the colonies and
later the U. S government's native policy became more and
more similar to what Nathaniel Bacon had been advocating, its
terms weren't really honored. They were also increasingly undermined by
anti Native laws, such as laws that prohibited Native people

(23:12):
from testifying in court. Another big change that followed this
was in the colony's labor. So Nathaniel Bacon, who was
a wealthy newcomer to the colony, managed to lead a
rebellion that was mostly made up of the colonies lower classes,
small free planters, indentured workers of all races, and enslaved Africans,
and they had all come together to fight against a

(23:34):
perceived Native threat and then ultimately to turn against the
colonial government. And the colonial elite saw this uniting of
all the lower classes together as a huge threat, so
after this, the Assembly passed a series of laws separating
the white and black population. Laws that specifically addressed the
African population and enslaved Africans in which prohibited interracial marriages.

(23:59):
Laws that allowed a person to be freed if they
could prove that they were baptized were abolished. The law
increasingly made divisions between black and white and slave and free.
The colony also focused less and less on using indentured
workers and more and more on enslaved workers. Some of
this was part of an ongoing trend, but some of

(24:19):
it was also a deliberate effort to move toward using
slavery rather than indenture, because permanently enslaved people were considered
to be more easily controlled. But there were other factors
as well, including economic changes in England that made it
more expensive to negotiate indentures. And then of course word
also got back to Europe. There was less and less

(24:41):
available land in North America. There were all kinds of
conflicts going on. Things the idea of immigrating became less
attractive to a lot of people. So Bacon's rebellion accelerated
a shift that was already under way. In sixteen eighty three,
years after the rebellion ended, seven percent of the population
and of Virginia and nearby Maryland were enslaved Africans. In

(25:04):
twenty years that rose too. In seventeen oh five, the
General Assembly passed an Act concerning Servants and Slaves, which
freed indentured servants at the age of twenty four while
codifying various aspects of slavery. This included outlawing resistance against
white Christians by quote Negroes, Mulatto's, Indians, and others, and

(25:27):
absolving enslavers from guilt if they killed a slave while
administering punishment. The shift also affected the enslavement of Native Americans,
and some of it was just a matter of numbers.
By the late seventeenth century, as the Transatlantic slave trade
was bringing more and more Africans to North America, there
was less and less demand for enslaved Native Americans because

(25:48):
there were just a lot more Africans available. The law
on this continued to be kind of scattered, with the
General Assembly confirming that it was legal to enslave Native
Americans in sixteen eighty two and then passing an act
that said the opposite a year later. The Assembly also
used a law that had been passed back in sixteen
sixty five, so before the rebellion, to sell an entire

(26:10):
community into slavery in the Caribbean and retaliation for one
murder that happened in seventeen oh five. A series of
court cases towards the end of the seventeen hundreds and
into eighteen hundred ruled that Native people were free, and
as was the case with enslavement, passing from an African
mother to her children, that freedom passed from a Native

(26:32):
mother to her children. None of this happened overnight, and
there was a lot of overlamp in the progression of
indentured servitude and slavery in Virginia, But overall, Bacon's rebellion
accelerated those trends, leading the colony to turn to slavery
more than indenture into enslaved Africans more than Native Americans,
until finally virtually all of the enslaved labor in the

(26:54):
colony was African, and slavery was viewed as something specific
to Africans and people of freaking descent. But none of
this is how people thought about Bacon's rebellion in the
years after it happened. This was especially true after the
Revolutionary War, which started a hundred years later, and the
wake of the Revolutionary War, people started thinking of Bacon's

(27:14):
rebellion almost as a dress rehearsal to the revolution. A
big proponent of this idea was Thomas Jefferson, who got
a copy of Thomas Matthew's account in eighteen o three.
Jefferson arranged for this account to be printed in the
Richmond Inquirer in eighteen o four, along with his introduction,
which read, in part quote, if this little book speaks

(27:35):
the truth, Nathaniel Bacon will be no longer regarded as
a rebel, but as a patriot. His name will be
rescued from the infamy which has adhered to it for
more than a century. The stigma of corruption, cruelty, and
treachery will be fixed on the administration by which he
was condemned, And one more case will be added to
those which prove that insurrections proceed oftener from the misconduct

(27:57):
of those in power than from the fact is and
turbulent temper of the people. This view that Bacon was
a hero instead of a trader, and that the rebellion
was an uprising against tyranny instead of a mutiny persisted
for a really long time. A man named Thomas Jefferson
Wurtenbacher wrote a book in nineteen forty that described Bacon

(28:19):
as a patriotic hero. One of the essays that I
read while researching this described this book as quote one
of the worst books on Virginia their reputable scholarly historian
ever published, and even in recent articles that acknowledge some
of the context to all of this. There is a
startling amount of phrasing that suggests that Berkeley was to

(28:39):
blame because he ignored what the colonists wanted, which was
to get rid of the native population. Yeah, that one
of the first I have access to, like all kinds
of encyclopedia type resources through various libraries, and a lot
of times that's where I will sort of start with
either a refresher or some background information or type of thing.

(29:01):
And there was one that was sort of the two
paragraph summary of Bacon's rebellion that really made it sound like, well,
if the governor had just done what the colonists asked
him to do, it would have been avoided. And I
was like, the governor or, the colonists are asking him
to exterminate people. That just doesn't seem like a great
conclusion to be drawing in this thing that was written

(29:22):
within the last two decades. Ye, what's your scoop? On
listener mail? More uplifting? It is definitely more fun. It
is from Greg. Greg says Hi tracing Holly as a
long time listener. I thought I'd right to let you
know what an interesting podcast you did on Sappo My
family History traces its roots to the Greek mainland and

(29:44):
to Armenia. A great many years ago, my parents took
the family on a summer vacation to Europe, spending some
time driving around the continent, including a sailboat cruise along
some of the Greek islands. That cruise ran into some weather,
and to avoid becoming a sequel to Gilligan's Island, we
took ref in the port of one of the smaller,
non touristy islands for a few days. That gave us
a chance to wander it's quite narrow streets and local

(30:07):
restaurants without the crowds and commotion that accompany the more
popular destinations. Listening to your podcast brought back some memories
of that wonderful trip, and I found myself on Google
street View wandering around the streets of the island of
Les Bus as Sappho might have done while listening to
you read her poetry. I suppose, though the architecture might

(30:28):
have been just a little different back then. Keep up
the good work, Greg. Thank you Greg for this note.
I love that idea of using Google street View to
kind of go visit a place that you're hearing about
on the podcast. I also love the Greek spelling slash
pronunciation of les bus there because it's definitely a be
in English. But apparently if you go to Greece they

(30:49):
will insist that that is not a B. So thank
you Greg for sending us that note. That is a
pretty ingenious thing to do. I have to say, yeah,
I have used I mean, I make use of Google
street View a lot for all kinds of you know,
is it is there a sidewalk this place? I am
planning to walk that kind of thing, um, but like this,

(31:10):
using it to sort of see what's this place like
now in this podcast I'm listening to. That sounds really cool.
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(31:32):
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