April 25, 2025 • 15 mins
Holly shares a theory on why Wanda Gág didn’t drink. There is also discussion of Gág’s medical issues and how they were handled by doctors.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff You missed in History Class, a production
of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Holly Fry and
I'm Tracy V.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Wilson.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
And we talked about Wanda Gog all week. Yeah. You
know what we did not talk about Regarding Wanda gog
A lot of her friends kind of talk trash about her.
Oh really, They were like, she was really selfish and
kind of hard to be around. And I'm like, oh,
that would explain why there aren't a lot of friends
in her picture a lot of the time. Yeah, although
her siblings remained very close to her. Her her youngest sibling, Flavia,
(00:41):
spent a lot of time with Wanda throughout her life,
often staying at her house, and her other siblings would
often stay there as well. I have questions.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Yes, So, based on her life story, it seems like
from a really early age she was trying so hard
to financially hold her family together.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
So the characterization of her is selfish. Like, I get it.
I get how a person can be in a friend
context coming off as selfish or maybe self centered, right,
But it's and I it's in some ways seems at
odds with this idea of like having really tried from
her teens to try to keep the family afloat. But
(01:25):
also part of me is like I feel like if
I were in that situation, and I were from my
teenage years meticulously tracking my money to try to keep
my family fed, I might as an adult be a
little selfish. Yeah, I would be self indulgent as hell.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
I mean, I think part of it probably is actually
that she lived for no one else but Wanda Dog,
do you know what I mean? Like her desires were
her primary priority, which I think is fine and great.
Like she didn't do a lot of like well, would
so and so be unhappy if I do? It'd be like,
(02:05):
this is what I want to do, this is what
I'm going to do. And I think on top of that,
the fact that she was pretty conceited about her artistic
talent probably rubbed people the wrong way, but they just
put it that way, so instead they said she was selfish,
do you know what I mean? Because that would be
like admitting that they didn't they weren't on even footing
(02:27):
in terms of art career. There's a fun factoid that
I saw on a video that is on the website
for the Wandagogue house, and it is a weird numerology thing,
but it's fascinating. It is the importance or the constant
recurrence of the number seven in her father and mother's lives.
(02:52):
The house was originally painted with seven different colors when
he built it would when he only had the one child,
not seven. It has seven different window shapes, it has
seven rooms, and then they had seven children, and then
both Anton and Lissie died when they were forty nine
(03:14):
years old, which is seven squared. It's just weird. I
don't think it means anything. I don't I'm just saying
it's interesting. I love it. But speaking of her parents,
there's a thing we mentioned that Wanda was perceived by
her friends as being kind of Victorian in her social values.
(03:38):
And one thing we didn't talk about in the show,
and in part because I feel like it's a thing
that's a little hard to pick apart, is that I
think she had some early experiences with people drinking that
she did not like. Okay, apparently after her father died.
(03:59):
You know, we talk about how the kids are all
doing all the work to support the family, and her
mom really wasn't and she was physically ill, but it
seems like also she may have had a problem with
alcohol misuse at the end of her life, because she
had been prescribed by a doctor at some point to
drink beer to help calm her nerves, and it seems
(04:23):
like that escalated. And so I feel like Wanda would
never speak ill of her mother, but it seems like
that impacted her perception of drinking and alcohol use and
she didn't want any part of it. And one of
the reasons that she and Earl, one of the reasons
she wanted to move from a house they had been
(04:44):
in in the country for several years, was that they
had a neighbor that would come over and drink with Earl,
and she didn't like him drinking either, and that was
part of what precipitated her being like, we should move,
which is just interesting. I don't think she ever I
read her younger year diaries, and I read a lot
(05:05):
of her other writing, but I never saw, and it
could be in there somewhere anything that specifically said like, hey,
I saw people drinking and that was horrible and I
didn't like it. So I didn't want any part of it.
But she never was a drinker at all, Like I
think she just associated it with not good things and painfulness,
which is kind of interesting. She also there are a
(05:28):
couple of things about her personal health that I did
not include. She did, at least one time in her
life terminate a pregnancy, which is pretty open about in
her diary. She also had a lot of issues with
her period throughout her life, which was another thing that
(05:48):
she would try to describe to doctors and they would
be like, you need rest. But they were bad enough
that when she would get her period, it would be
extremely painful for several days, and it was bad enough
that she had to structure her life around like I
need to have those days off because I can't do
anything right. Like she was basically bedridden because it was
(06:09):
so painful it was hard to move. But I will
say that she called her period by a funny name,
much like vacation is a funny name for open relationship. Okay,
she called her period hallelujah. Okay, I don't know if
that's something she started calling it. Yeah, because she was
(06:30):
having some sexual alliances. Okay. I can't imagine another reason
you would know it that, especially if but pain right, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
We have made some progress as a society in terms
of women's health. Yeah, but like, as an example sample,
my mom has a progressive neurological disorder that she spent
so many years going to doctors and specialists and having
(07:12):
them tell her it was just stress.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Yeah, it's not.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Her neurons are being actively damaged in her body.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Right. Yeah, that happens a lot. I mean, I am
not to be too overshary about personal stuff, but right,
you remember, at the beginning of last year, I was
having don't anybody be scared, I'm fine. I was having
chest pain, which my doctor kept telling me was because
I was eating spicy food, even though I was like
(07:43):
I don't know how to eat spicy food. I could.
I will eat all the butter, but I can't really
do spices. I can never tolerate them. I don't know
what's going on. And it turned out that I had
like a big old gallstone launched in the duct between
my gallbladder and my stomach, and like for it was like,
you know, you're just I think it's spicy food and
stress and you're not drinking too much coffee and not
taking care of yourself. And like there was a week
(08:05):
where I wasn't allowed to eat because we were trying
to like get all of the stuff out of my system,
and it was like it didn't get any better. Yeah,
until I was in the er and they were like,
oh girl, that's not what's up right, right.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
I remember the extended misery of like trying to avoid
coffee during all of that, and then you had your
gallbladder out and it was like everything result, everything was
fine instantly, fine felt great after that.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Yeah, it was. It's kind of funny. We're not there yet,
and I'm sure some of it is just right, like some.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Of it's the system and it applies to everyone, but
there are disproportionate things that affect everyone who's not a man.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yeah. I mean I feel like too a lot of
the times, because menopause has not been studied all that much,
right compared to other things. It's not to say that
there haven't been any, but when you say something sometimes
they'll just be like, oh, that's probably menopause, or I
don't know, maybe is this menopause. I don't know, maybe,
(09:06):
and so it can get really frustrating. So it doesn't
surprise me that she was going to doctors and going
I think I'm starting menopause. I think it's giving me problems,
and they were like, probably not something in my chest hurt.
Since she was like, they were like, you need to
lie down. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
I've had multiple conversations with people in my friend group
about perimenopause specifically and how everything we know about it
we have learned from each other and not from doctors. Yeah,
and you'll go to the doctor and have like the
(09:47):
similar situation of like, I'm having these things happen and
they're like, yeah, maybe maybe maybe you know, I feel
like I have a doctor that does listen to me
and does like and we'll order tests to try, but
it still is like we don't really for sure know
why this is happening. All of the tests are normal,
maybe perimenopause maybe.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Yeah, And I will say this is like my moment
to do a little PSA. I know that healthcare is
not available to everyone, but if you can, and if
you have access, and if you are able to, please
get all of your baseline screenings done as often as
you possibly can on your yearly or whatever schedule, because
it's when you have that in place it's easier to
(10:29):
see the variations that indicate something else is wrong. Yeah,
I know it sucks, but please do it and take
care of yourself because you're the only one we have.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
And I will also add to this that, like, I know,
it can be really hard for a number of reasons
to stay on top of the things that your doctor
has asked you to do. But for example, I would
not know that I needed an increase in my blood
pressure medicine had I not been trying to take my
blood pressure at home three times times a week, like
(11:00):
my doctor asked.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Yeah, I mean that stuff is really important, especially as
you kind of hit our age, you know, as the
world becomes progressively more chaotic, and possibly the increased stress
in your life is making your blood pressure significantly higher. Yeah. Yeah.
We mentioned in the course of the episode, when Earle
(11:22):
and her brother decided not to tell her she had
advanced stage cancer, that it was not entirely unheard of
for that to be the case, even though she and
her diary is like they're giving me X ray therapy.
I'm pretty sure this is cancer not uncommon. Hard to
(11:45):
hear that, you know, in our age where we are
a little more aware of conscious of often discussing the
ideas of bodily autonomy, and it's easy to want to
condemn that choice, But I don't think that didn't feel
especially out of hand given time and place, right, right,
and because Earle was obviously really devoted to her at
(12:07):
the end of her life, you know, he did basically
put aside everything he had going on to take care
of her. Yeah. Yeah, so, but it's also weird.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Yeah, by the time these episodes come out, we will
have had a Saturday Classic about George Wallace, who we
have a similar story in that episode regarding his wife
and a cancer diagnosis that she wasn't informed of. It
is by coincidence that that is how this is lining up. Yeah,
(12:40):
I mean, I feel like I also was thinking of
in the recent Vonnegut episode, we mentioned that when his
sister was very ill in the hospital with cancer, they
didn't want to tell her that her husband had died, right,
which you know, she found out by accident and it
(13:03):
was horrible.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
And I don't, I don't know. That's a hard choice
to make, and I don't I don't want to dog
anybody as stealing someone's autonomy when I know in these
cases it's not like they're hiding something from someone to
try to do something devious. They're trying not to hurt
them worse. But I don't I'm not equipped to make
(13:25):
those decisions for other people, So I don't know. But
I did think it would be a little more joyous
to end this one by talking about what Wanda Gog
throughout her life listed as her three passions, and they were, obviously,
unsurprisingly to anyone. Art yep, sex yep, and growing things. Okay,
(13:49):
she loved gardens.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Yeah. I find it funny that she thought the books
that made her most famous were kind of like, I'm
just doing this, I have money to make art. That
kind of tickles me a little bit. I love it.
I kind of love her. She's she's wild. I can't
imagine being as confident as her now. She just had
(14:18):
no hesitation about how great she thought she was, which
is wonderful but not something I can identify with. So, oh, Wanda,
please give us strength and these times going forward. If
this is your weekend coming up, I hope that you
can invoke a little bit about of that Wanda Gog
spirit and advocate for yourself and be confident in yourself
(14:40):
and know that you are very good at some stuff
in your life, and that you know you should. You
should be able to make your own decisions and follow
follow your your own conscience as to what is best.
I also hope everything goes smoothly for you and that
people are nice to you, and that you are nice
to people in return. We got to take care of
our and each other. If you have medical things and
(15:02):
you can get them screened, please get them screened. Do
it for me, Tell your doctor, Holly said. So we
will be right back here tomorrow with a classic episode
and then on Monday with something brand new. Stuff you
missed in.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts
from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Stuff You missed in History Class, a production
of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Holly Fry and
I'm Tracy V.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Wilson.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
And we talked about Wanda Gog all week. Yeah. You
know what we did not talk about Regarding Wanda gog
A lot of her friends kind of talk trash about her.
Oh really, They were like, she was really selfish and
kind of hard to be around. And I'm like, oh,
that would explain why there aren't a lot of friends
in her picture a lot of the time. Yeah, although
her siblings remained very close to her. Her her youngest sibling, Flavia,
(00:41):
spent a lot of time with Wanda throughout her life,
often staying at her house, and her other siblings would
often stay there as well. I have questions.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Yes, So, based on her life story, it seems like
from a really early age she was trying so hard
to financially hold her family together.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
So the characterization of her is selfish. Like, I get it.
I get how a person can be in a friend
context coming off as selfish or maybe self centered, right,
But it's and I it's in some ways seems at
odds with this idea of like having really tried from
her teens to try to keep the family afloat. But
(01:25):
also part of me is like I feel like if
I were in that situation, and I were from my
teenage years meticulously tracking my money to try to keep
my family fed, I might as an adult be a
little selfish. Yeah, I would be self indulgent as hell.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
I mean, I think part of it probably is actually
that she lived for no one else but Wanda Dog,
do you know what I mean? Like her desires were
her primary priority, which I think is fine and great.
Like she didn't do a lot of like well, would
so and so be unhappy if I do? It'd be like,
(02:05):
this is what I want to do, this is what
I'm going to do. And I think on top of that,
the fact that she was pretty conceited about her artistic
talent probably rubbed people the wrong way, but they just
put it that way, so instead they said she was selfish,
do you know what I mean? Because that would be
like admitting that they didn't they weren't on even footing
(02:27):
in terms of art career. There's a fun factoid that
I saw on a video that is on the website
for the Wandagogue house, and it is a weird numerology thing,
but it's fascinating. It is the importance or the constant
recurrence of the number seven in her father and mother's lives.
(02:52):
The house was originally painted with seven different colors when
he built it would when he only had the one child,
not seven. It has seven different window shapes, it has
seven rooms, and then they had seven children, and then
both Anton and Lissie died when they were forty nine
(03:14):
years old, which is seven squared. It's just weird. I
don't think it means anything. I don't I'm just saying
it's interesting. I love it. But speaking of her parents,
there's a thing we mentioned that Wanda was perceived by
her friends as being kind of Victorian in her social values.
(03:38):
And one thing we didn't talk about in the show,
and in part because I feel like it's a thing
that's a little hard to pick apart, is that I
think she had some early experiences with people drinking that
she did not like. Okay, apparently after her father died.
(03:59):
You know, we talk about how the kids are all
doing all the work to support the family, and her
mom really wasn't and she was physically ill, but it
seems like also she may have had a problem with
alcohol misuse at the end of her life, because she
had been prescribed by a doctor at some point to
drink beer to help calm her nerves, and it seems
(04:23):
like that escalated. And so I feel like Wanda would
never speak ill of her mother, but it seems like
that impacted her perception of drinking and alcohol use and
she didn't want any part of it. And one of
the reasons that she and Earl, one of the reasons
she wanted to move from a house they had been
(04:44):
in in the country for several years, was that they
had a neighbor that would come over and drink with Earl,
and she didn't like him drinking either, and that was
part of what precipitated her being like, we should move,
which is just interesting. I don't think she ever I
read her younger year diaries, and I read a lot
(05:05):
of her other writing, but I never saw, and it
could be in there somewhere anything that specifically said like, hey,
I saw people drinking and that was horrible and I
didn't like it. So I didn't want any part of it.
But she never was a drinker at all, Like I
think she just associated it with not good things and painfulness,
which is kind of interesting. She also there are a
(05:28):
couple of things about her personal health that I did
not include. She did, at least one time in her
life terminate a pregnancy, which is pretty open about in
her diary. She also had a lot of issues with
her period throughout her life, which was another thing that
(05:48):
she would try to describe to doctors and they would
be like, you need rest. But they were bad enough
that when she would get her period, it would be
extremely painful for several days, and it was bad enough
that she had to structure her life around like I
need to have those days off because I can't do
anything right. Like she was basically bedridden because it was
(06:09):
so painful it was hard to move. But I will
say that she called her period by a funny name,
much like vacation is a funny name for open relationship. Okay,
she called her period hallelujah. Okay, I don't know if
that's something she started calling it. Yeah, because she was
(06:30):
having some sexual alliances. Okay. I can't imagine another reason
you would know it that, especially if but pain right, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
We have made some progress as a society in terms
of women's health. Yeah, but like, as an example sample,
my mom has a progressive neurological disorder that she spent
so many years going to doctors and specialists and having
(07:12):
them tell her it was just stress.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Yeah, it's not.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Her neurons are being actively damaged in her body.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Right. Yeah, that happens a lot. I mean, I am
not to be too overshary about personal stuff, but right,
you remember, at the beginning of last year, I was
having don't anybody be scared, I'm fine. I was having
chest pain, which my doctor kept telling me was because
I was eating spicy food, even though I was like
(07:43):
I don't know how to eat spicy food. I could.
I will eat all the butter, but I can't really
do spices. I can never tolerate them. I don't know
what's going on. And it turned out that I had
like a big old gallstone launched in the duct between
my gallbladder and my stomach, and like for it was like,
you know, you're just I think it's spicy food and
stress and you're not drinking too much coffee and not
taking care of yourself. And like there was a week
(08:05):
where I wasn't allowed to eat because we were trying
to like get all of the stuff out of my system,
and it was like it didn't get any better. Yeah,
until I was in the er and they were like,
oh girl, that's not what's up right, right.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
I remember the extended misery of like trying to avoid
coffee during all of that, and then you had your
gallbladder out and it was like everything result, everything was
fine instantly, fine felt great after that.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Yeah, it was. It's kind of funny. We're not there yet,
and I'm sure some of it is just right, like some.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Of it's the system and it applies to everyone, but
there are disproportionate things that affect everyone who's not a man.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yeah. I mean I feel like too a lot of
the times, because menopause has not been studied all that much,
right compared to other things. It's not to say that
there haven't been any, but when you say something sometimes
they'll just be like, oh, that's probably menopause, or I
don't know, maybe is this menopause. I don't know, maybe,
(09:06):
and so it can get really frustrating. So it doesn't
surprise me that she was going to doctors and going
I think I'm starting menopause. I think it's giving me problems,
and they were like, probably not something in my chest hurt.
Since she was like, they were like, you need to
lie down. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
I've had multiple conversations with people in my friend group
about perimenopause specifically and how everything we know about it
we have learned from each other and not from doctors. Yeah,
and you'll go to the doctor and have like the
(09:47):
similar situation of like, I'm having these things happen and
they're like, yeah, maybe maybe maybe you know, I feel
like I have a doctor that does listen to me
and does like and we'll order tests to try, but
it still is like we don't really for sure know
why this is happening. All of the tests are normal,
maybe perimenopause maybe.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Yeah, And I will say this is like my moment
to do a little PSA. I know that healthcare is
not available to everyone, but if you can, and if
you have access, and if you are able to, please
get all of your baseline screenings done as often as
you possibly can on your yearly or whatever schedule, because
it's when you have that in place it's easier to
(10:29):
see the variations that indicate something else is wrong. Yeah,
I know it sucks, but please do it and take
care of yourself because you're the only one we have.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
And I will also add to this that, like, I know,
it can be really hard for a number of reasons
to stay on top of the things that your doctor
has asked you to do. But for example, I would
not know that I needed an increase in my blood
pressure medicine had I not been trying to take my
blood pressure at home three times times a week, like
(11:00):
my doctor asked.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Yeah, I mean that stuff is really important, especially as
you kind of hit our age, you know, as the
world becomes progressively more chaotic, and possibly the increased stress
in your life is making your blood pressure significantly higher. Yeah. Yeah.
We mentioned in the course of the episode, when Earle
(11:22):
and her brother decided not to tell her she had
advanced stage cancer, that it was not entirely unheard of
for that to be the case, even though she and
her diary is like they're giving me X ray therapy.
I'm pretty sure this is cancer not uncommon. Hard to
(11:45):
hear that, you know, in our age where we are
a little more aware of conscious of often discussing the
ideas of bodily autonomy, and it's easy to want to
condemn that choice, But I don't think that didn't feel
especially out of hand given time and place, right, right,
and because Earle was obviously really devoted to her at
(12:07):
the end of her life, you know, he did basically
put aside everything he had going on to take care
of her. Yeah. Yeah, so, but it's also weird.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Yeah, by the time these episodes come out, we will
have had a Saturday Classic about George Wallace, who we
have a similar story in that episode regarding his wife
and a cancer diagnosis that she wasn't informed of. It
is by coincidence that that is how this is lining up. Yeah,
(12:40):
I mean, I feel like I also was thinking of
in the recent Vonnegut episode, we mentioned that when his
sister was very ill in the hospital with cancer, they
didn't want to tell her that her husband had died, right,
which you know, she found out by accident and it
(13:03):
was horrible.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
And I don't, I don't know. That's a hard choice
to make, and I don't I don't want to dog
anybody as stealing someone's autonomy when I know in these
cases it's not like they're hiding something from someone to
try to do something devious. They're trying not to hurt
them worse. But I don't I'm not equipped to make
(13:25):
those decisions for other people, So I don't know. But
I did think it would be a little more joyous
to end this one by talking about what Wanda Gog
throughout her life listed as her three passions, and they were, obviously,
unsurprisingly to anyone. Art yep, sex yep, and growing things. Okay,
(13:49):
she loved gardens.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Yeah. I find it funny that she thought the books
that made her most famous were kind of like, I'm
just doing this, I have money to make art. That
kind of tickles me a little bit. I love it.
I kind of love her. She's she's wild. I can't
imagine being as confident as her now. She just had
(14:18):
no hesitation about how great she thought she was, which
is wonderful but not something I can identify with. So, oh, Wanda,
please give us strength and these times going forward. If
this is your weekend coming up, I hope that you
can invoke a little bit about of that Wanda Gog
spirit and advocate for yourself and be confident in yourself
(14:40):
and know that you are very good at some stuff
in your life, and that you know you should. You
should be able to make your own decisions and follow
follow your your own conscience as to what is best.
I also hope everything goes smoothly for you and that
people are nice to you, and that you are nice
to people in return. We got to take care of
our and each other. If you have medical things and
(15:02):
you can get them screened, please get them screened. Do
it for me, Tell your doctor, Holly said. So we
will be right back here tomorrow with a classic episode
and then on Monday with something brand new. Stuff you
missed in.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts
from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Stuff You Missed in History Class News
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Decisions, Decisions
Welcome to "Decisions, Decisions," the podcast where boundaries are pushed, and conversations get candid! Join your favorite hosts, Mandii B and WeezyWTF, as they dive deep into the world of non-traditional relationships and explore the often-taboo topics surrounding dating, sex, and love. Every Monday, Mandii and Weezy invite you to unlearn the outdated narratives dictated by traditional patriarchal norms. With a blend of humor, vulnerability, and authenticity, they share their personal journeys navigating their 30s, tackling the complexities of modern relationships, and engaging in thought-provoking discussions that challenge societal expectations. From groundbreaking interviews with diverse guests to relatable stories that resonate with your experiences, "Decisions, Decisions" is your go-to source for open dialogue about what it truly means to love and connect in today's world. Get ready to reshape your understanding of relationships and embrace the freedom of authentic connections—tune in and join the conversation!