Lady Jane Grey, the Nine-day Queen

For a very short time between Edward VI and Mary I, Lady Jane was, at least nominally, Queen of England and Ireland, but whether she had any right to the title is still the subject of dispute.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to steph you missed in history class from how
Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Tracy Wilson and I'm Holly Frying. Before we jump
into today's episode, quick announcement, we will be at Salt

(00:21):
Lake Comic Con fan X March seventeen. Yeah, we're going
to do a live show. We are, uh, we are
each on some other panels. I think. Yeah, our live
show I believe it is on Saturday the eighteenth, and
then there are other panels. And I will at some
point when I get a moment to do a little

(00:41):
right up of when we'll be where and put it
on our blogs so people can reference that. Yes, so
if you're in the Salt Lake City area, you can
come and see us on the seventeenth and eighteenth of March. Yeah,
and now we'll get into today's topic, which is a
very very frequent listener request. That's like an understatement. Yeah,

(01:05):
you could say very about twelve to fourteen more times
and it would still be maybe underselling how much we
get this request A lot, a lot. Uh. And this
is Lady Jane Gray, also known as the Nine Day Queen.
She came up very briefly in a past episode by
Katie and Sarah in their their episode Elizabeth the First,

(01:27):
before she was queen basically for an incredibly short time
between Edward the sixth and Mary the First, Lady Jane
was at least nominally the Queen of England and Ireland,
but whether she had any right at all to that
title is still the subject of dispute even today. I
found scholars with polar opposite opinions on that uh And

(01:52):
really a lot of what goes into the story went
on behind closed doors and off the record, so different
accounts of it today present incredibly different interpretations of what happened.
What we do know is that Lady Jane Gray was
born in fifteen thirty seven, but her exact date of
birth is unclear. Her birthday is traditionally noted as having
taken place in October, the same month as King Edward

(02:13):
the sixth. Her parents were Henry Gray and Lady Francis Brandon,
and when Jane was born, Henry Gray was Marcus of
Dorset and he would later become the Duke of Suffolk,
and her parents were still pretty young when they had Jane.
They had married at the ages of just fifteen and sixteen,
and they were only twenty and twenty one when she
was born. Jane and her sisters were Henry the seventh

(02:35):
great granddaughters through their mother Francis, whose mother was Mary Tutor.
Mary Tutor was Henry the eighth sister, so this made
them Henry the eighth great nieces. Mary's husband had also
been one of Henry the Eighth's close friends, so on
Jane's mother's side, the family was very closely connected to
the throne. The only reason that Francis had not married

(02:58):
someone higher up in the noble was that her father
had been married before, so she had a lot of
older half siblings to marry off before they got to her.
And just uh. Two different biographies that I consulted for
this both started with multiple pages of family trees outlining

(03:18):
these relationships. So if it was a little confusing, welcome
to the club, it is a little confusing. Francis and
her daughters were, at various points very high up in
the line of succession. Henry the Eighth famously had his
series of ill feated wives and offspring, and in fifteen
thirty six, two of those offspring, Mary and Elizabeth, were

(03:40):
declared illegitimate with no claim to the throne. Because Henry
had divorced Mary's mother and beheaded Elizabeth's consequently, for about
a year before Jane's birth, her mother, Francis, was basically
next in line. Henry the Eighth at that point had
no sons, his daughters had been declared illegitimate, and he
had no other surviving siblings, so his niece Francis, while

(04:03):
not his child, was at least a lawfully begotten child
and an actual relative. When Edward was born on October twelfth,
fifteen thirty seven, as his father's legitimate son, he became
next in line to the throne, making Frances second, since
Mary and Elizabeth were still viewed as ineligible to rule. However,

(04:24):
in fifteen forty three, Parliament passed an Act of Succession,
which received royal assent the following year, and this legislation
made no mention of Francis or her family, but it
restored Mary and Elizabeth back to the line of succession,
regardless of their legitimacy, should their brother die without an heir.

(04:45):
This Act of Succession also gave Henry the right to
name a successor by testament or in his will, which
he did. Henry. The eighth will specified that if his
children had no male heir, the next in line after Edward,
Mary and Elizabeth would be Francis's children, since Francis was
his legitimate niece. The fact that Francis herself was not

(05:06):
named in the will as being in the line of
succession apparently annoyed her very greatly, and this is one
of the reasons why and some versions of this story
she's the one described as being the mastermind, scheming behind
the scenes to put her daughter on the throne. So
from the time she was born, Jane didn't have that
many steps between herself and the throne, and apart from

(05:28):
her place in the line of succession, her parents and
many other people in her life hoped she would marry
someone quite powerful, perhaps even then Prince Edward himself, so
they groomed her to that purpose, paying special attention to
her education. She was quite bookish and very precocious, and
she developed a widespread reputation as a scholar. She learned

(05:51):
to speak and write both Latin and Greek, and she
also spoke free French, Hebrew, and Italian. She was also
deeply religious, and specifically deeply Protestant, in fifteen forty seven.
Her parents also placed Jane as a ward in a
very prominent family, that of Lady Catherine Parr, last wife
of Henry the eighth and very recently his widow after

(06:14):
she remarried Thomas Seymour, Baron of Sudley. Sending a child
to live with a high placed family was a pretty
typical practice among the nobility, although at age ten, Jane
was a little younger than usual for this. Lady Catherine
was also Princess Elizabeth's guardians, so for a time both
Jane and Elizabeth were raised in the same household. Although

(06:36):
they did get to know each other, because of the
difference in their ages, they weren't particularly close, and Elizabeth
was also completely aware of the fact that Jane was
a potential threat to her own place in the line
of succession. Since there were no questions of Jane's legitimacy
or her parentage to get in the way of her

(06:56):
approval as a potential monarch, for about a year, Jane
had access to the same tutors and social interactions as
Elizabeth did, and it may have been during this time
that Jane's father and her guardian began planning for a
potential marriage to Edward, who had become king after Henry
the Eighth's death on January fifteen forty seven. But Jane's

(07:18):
time in this household didn't last very long. Catherine Parr
died due to complications from childbirth and fifty eight, and
Jane stood in the role of her chief mourner during
the funeral ceremonies. Afterward, Jane went home for a while,
but after some back and forth between her father and
Thomas Seymour, she returned with her. With Catherine's death, her

(07:41):
royal wealth had reverted back to the crown, so Thomas
basically wanted to keep Jane as award as a mark
of his continued status, so it wasn't like he lost
in one fell swoop all of his marks of social
well offness. Finally, Jane's father agreed to sent her back

(08:02):
to Thomas Seymour, but that did not last long either.
In fifteen forty nine, Thomas Seymour was arrested and charged
with treason in an alleged plot to kidnap the King
and Mary Elizabeth himself. He had also, at one point
the year before, been found embracing her too much scandal.
He was executed on March twentie and Jane once again

(08:23):
went home in October of fifteen fifty one. So a
couple of years later, Jane's father became the Duke of Suffolk,
and this gave Jane a lot more access to the
highest echelons of the nobility without needing to be someone
else's ward to get there, and from that point she
was often at court still with a lot of the
people around her angling for her to marry the king eventually.

(08:47):
At this point they were both only fourteen years old,
and while it wasn't unheard of for people to get
married that young, especially among the nobility and the monarchy,
all the various approvals that would be required for a
royal marriage to take place stood in the way, along
with their being lots of other potential candidates for Edward's wife,

(09:08):
all of whom would, in one way or another, suit
some kind of political end, so in addition to obstacles,
there was competition. However, wiping all of this off the
slate is the fact that Edward's health started to fail
and so the idea of him marrying Jane completely fell apart.
And we're going to talk about that after we first
paused for a little sponsor break. Edward the sixth had

(09:36):
only been nine years old when his father, Henry the
eighth died, and at first Edward Seymour, the Duke of Somerset,
had been Edwards regent. However, if that last name, Seymour
sounded familiar, Edward Seymour's youngest brother was Thomas Seymour, the
same one we talked about before the break, who was
executed for treason after an alleged plot to kidnap the king.

(09:58):
His brother's regency not last long after that. The Duke
of Somerset's replacement as regent was John Dudley. John Dudley
was the Duke of Northumberland, who had a lot of
influence over the young king, understandably because he was still
at that point a child. In some accounts, literally everything
that happened with Jane after this point was a result

(10:21):
of Northumberland's nefarious scheming and his undue influence over the King.
But in other accounts, as Edward gained in some experience
and some maturity, he was taking the initiative for at
least some of it on his own. In November two,
King Edward the six got sick and by the following February,

(10:43):
people were becoming seriously concerned about how long he was
going to live. In the opinion of his doctors, he
had tuberculosis, and although he did recover somewhat, it was
clear that he was still very ill. As the king's
health declined, Northumberland started trying to figure out how to
secure his own claim to power, since it was not

(11:03):
likely he would have nearly such an advantageous place if
Mary or Elizabeth became queen, and this was especially true
since if the line of succession proceeded as planned to
marry he would be basically out because he was a
Protestant and she was Catholic. At the same time, Jane,
her parents, and the many other interested parties around her

(11:26):
abandoned the idea of her marrying this ailing king. They're
marrying in his dying soon after having not produced an
air with Jane. Wasn't a risk that any of them
were willing to take. It's not entirely clear who first
proposed the idea that Jane should marry Lord Guilford Dudley.
He was the fourth and only unmarried son of John Dudley,

(11:48):
Duke of Northumberland. It may have been Northumberland's scheme to
connect the family to somebody who was in the line
of succession, albeit not at the top of the list.
But there's a whole other school of thought on this
that it was really William Parr, Marquis of Northampton, who
initially hatch this plan. William Parr had wealth and property

(12:09):
that were at stake which he would lose if Mary
followed Edward on the throne. So according to this theory,
Northampton thought that if Jane Gray married Northumberland's son, Northumberland
would be more likely to back her own claim to
the throne, and that would help Northampton protect his own
financial interests. Regardless of whose idea it was, the betrothal

(12:34):
of Jane and Guilford was announced on April fifteen fifty three.
On May, at the age of fifteen, Jane Gray married
Lord Guilford Dudley in a triple wedding that made multiple
connections among the Dudley's and other families. Guilford Dudley's sister, Catherine,
married Henry Hastings, who was an heir to an earl,

(12:54):
and Jane's sister, also named Catherine, married the heir to
another earl, although the king himself was too ill to
attend these proceedings, the Triple wedding was hugely attended by
the English nobility. Meanwhile, as his father had done before him,
Edward the sixth was writing a will to specify who
should follow him on the throne, and there's a lot

(13:15):
of speculation into how much input he had into this will.
As we said before, it's often retold that this was
almost entirely Northumberland's influence. But Edward was also raised as
a Protestant, and he knew that if his half sister
Mary followed him on the throne, she would roll back
what he saw as the progress of Protestantism in England

(13:38):
and would oversee the return of Catholicism. So while it's
incredibly likely that Northumberland had at least some influence over
the young monarch, who was both ill and as we've noted,
not particularly old at this point, he almost certainly had
a real interest in the outcome. On June twelfth, Edward

(13:59):
met with lawyer and judges and instructed them to take
legal steps to make Jane his heir, skipping over his
half sisters Mary and Elizabeth. He struck through a previous
provision in which Francis, Jane's mother would rule as governor
in the absence of male heirs. A patent outlining this
new line of succession was signed on June one, making

(14:21):
it official, at least on paper, that if Edward didn't survive,
Jane would be queen. As we mentioned at the top
of the show, different accounts take completely different tax on
whether he had any right to do this. Some of
them cite the President of Henry the Eighth's own will,
which did specify who should follow him on the throne,

(14:41):
but that Act of Succession that had come out in
fifteen forty three and fifteen forty four clearly specified that
Mary followed Edward in the line of succession. There was
also a fifteen forty seven Treasons Act that specified that
changing the line of succession as it was outlined in
the previous Act of Succession was high treason, so even

(15:03):
at the time and the opinions of some of the
judges who were involved in this, the only way that
Edward would have the actual authority to name Jane as
his successor would be for Parliament to repeal the Act
of succession he was king, but that did not mean
that he was above the law. Edward did, in fact
issue ritz to summon Parliament in September of that year,

(15:27):
most likely to do that very thing, get rid of
the Act of Succession so he would have the legal
leeway to name Jane his heir. However, in spite of
doctors and healers being called in to try to keep
him alive until the parliament convened, or perhaps because of it,
given how many medical treatments of the day were actually

(15:47):
quite harmful, Edward died on July sixty three, and in
spite of the questionable legality of it all, Jane was
named queen on July seven. The Mayor of London, the
city magistrates, and the guard all swore oaths of allegiance
to her. Edward's half sister, Mary, however, did not, even

(16:08):
though attempts were made to keep Edward's death a secret
until Jane's succession was secure. Those attempts were not very successful,
and Mary heard about it. Elizabeth presumably did as well,
but she stayed out of this whole thing. Mary must
a force to march to London to try to assert
her own claim to the throne, and on July eight

(16:29):
she proclaimed herself queen from her estates in East Anglia.
She wrote to the council to instruct them to do
the same, and her letter to them arrived two days later.
Jane learned that she was queen at Northumberland's estate outside
London on the ninth. Her husband was there, along with
her parents and some of the Royal Council. Reportedly, her
response was that she accepted the crown quote if what

(16:52):
has been given to me is lawfully mine. In some
accounts she then fainted, and another she just fell to
the ground and upt This fainting and or crying came
to be used as evidence that Jane was very young,
wholly innocent, completely overwhelmed by circumstance, and was basically a
totally help helpless pawn of her parents and Northumberland. But

(17:16):
modern scholars have taken a different interpretation that it was
a very visible and intentional demonstration of her claim that
she had not been seeking this throne herself that had
been bestowed upon her unsought. She didn't really have the
means to have a press conference to issue that statement,
so instead she fell to the ground and cried, so

(17:36):
it would be obvious to everyone from Northumberland's estate, Jane
went to the White Tower of London to formally take
possession of it as monarch. Almost immediately, though, things started
to fall apart as Mary made her own move for
the throne, and possibly because Northumberland was hugely out of
favor with the general public, Mary was finding huge support.

(17:58):
The size of her force grew quickly, including through five
royal ships that mutinied with their men, forcing their officers
to go over to Mary's side. Northumberland started to rally
a force to head Mary off on her way to London,
and Jane's father was initially supposed to lead it, but
he was becoming increasingly ill, so Northumberland took charge of

(18:19):
it himself, but he was so out of favor, and
this whole plot was becoming so increasingly a point of
contention that his men continually deserted him, and the idea
that he would steadfastly support Jane if she was married
to his son did not wind up holding up. By
July eighteenth, he only had three men left, and one

(18:41):
of them was Jane's ailing father. He abandoned his efforts
to protect James's claim to the throne on the nineteenth
of July, at which point she was removed. He formally
proclaimed Mary Queen on the twentie Jane stayed in the
Tower of London, though now instead of being the monarch,
she was a prisoner. And we're going to talk about

(19:02):
the aftermath and how Jane came to become a cultural figure,
after we first take a little break for a sponsive break.
Mary the first, who would go on to be known
as Bloody Mary, formally entered London on August three, fififty three,

(19:22):
and as the Protestants and this story had feared, she
did return Catholicism to the monarchy and to the country. Really,
she would later refer to fifteen fifty three as her
miracle year. Trials for the accused, who were charged with
treason for their role in trying to make Jane queen
started on August eighteen. By that point, the Duke of

(19:43):
Northumberland and many of his sons and supporters had been
imprisoned in the tower since July. All of the accused
were convicted in Northumberland, and two of his men were
sentenced to death. Those executions were carried out on August May. Mary, however,
didn't really want Jane to be executed, even though they

(20:04):
were on totally opposite sides in terms of religion and
in terms of who should be on the throne, and
in some accounts Jane had actually been rude to marry
over her Catholic faith. Mary mostly saw Jane as upawn
and not really that much of a threat, so Jane
eventually was allowed some freedom in the tower, including being
allowed to walk in the Queen's gardens, starting the December

(20:26):
after she was imprisoned. However, that changed the following February
in fifteen fifty four, Jane's father joined what came to
be known as Thomas Wyatt's Rebellion against Mary, and even
though they had nothing to do with this rebellion, the
fact that it happened and involved Jane's father meant that
Jane and her husband were no longer viewed as harmless innocence.

(20:49):
They were both beheaded on February twelve of fifteen fifty four.
She was just sixteen at the time. Jane's father was
beheaded for his role on February. There are a lot
of people who get beheaded in this story. That's why
the whole Bloody marything. Yet the beheadings continue long after
this story is over. Because of the role of religion

(21:12):
in this whole saga and Jane's own steadfast devotion, she
wound up being regarded as a Protestant martyr. While she
was imprisoned in the tower, she wrote letters to her
family and her New Testament, and in her prayer book,
she wrote to her sister in one of these books, quote,
I have here sent you, good sister Catherine, a book which,

(21:32):
although it be not outwardly trend with gold, yet inwardly
it is more worth than precious stones. It is the book,
dear sister, of the law of the Lord. It is
his testament and last Will, which he bequeathed unto us wretches,
which shall lead you to the path of eternal joy.
And if you with a good mind read it, and
with an earnest mind do you purpose to follow it,

(21:53):
It shall bring you to an immortal and everlasting life.
It shall teach you to live, and learn you to die.
Before her death, she sent this New Testament to her sister,
and while awaiting her execution, Jane claimed that she had
simply accepted the throne that was offered to her, she
had not sought it herself, which she did to try
to decouple this concept of treasonous from Protestant. Protestant propaganda

(22:20):
after her death reiterated the idea that she was wholly
innocent and a religious murder. Once Elizabeth the First, a Protestant,
became queen, the idea that Jane herself was treacherous mostly faded.
Lady Jane Gray became a highly highly romanticized figure after
her death. Overall, we don't have a lot of her

(22:41):
letters or her personal papers, and it's unclear whether any
of the paintings and engravings that were made of her
uh during her lifetime or shortly after it are really
of her. A lot of them are just labeled Jane
with no other identifying information, so we know it's a
Jane who lived around that time, but not whether it
was this Jane um. Apparently there was a painting that

(23:03):
was very clearly labeled that it was Jane the Queen,
but that painting has been lost. The only eyewitness account
of her appearance in writing that contains any detail at
all was probably a forgery made for an early twentieth
century biography. So for a lot of people, their mental
image of Lady Jane Jane's so For a lot of people,

(23:26):
their mental image of Lady Jane Gray comes from Paul
Delarochia's portrait The Execution of Lady Jane Gray, which dates
back to eighteen thirty three, so centuries after all of
this happened. So it was really easy, given all of
this lack of concrete information, for her to become kind
of a blank slate for the heroine in tragic stories

(23:47):
and poems. This was especially true around seventeen fourteen and
seventeen fifteen, around the time of the first Jacobite Uprising, which,
to recap, was a challenge by the House of Stewart
against the reigning House of Hanover. Because Jane's story was
all about the line of succession and religious divisions between
Protestants and Catholics, it mirrored the political situation at the time,

(24:08):
and it became incredibly popular. Edward Young's poem The Force
of Religion or Vanquished Love was first published in seventeen fourteen.
Three editions of that poem came out in under two years.
The Tragedy of Lady Jane Gray was first staged in
seventeen fifteen by playwright Nicholas Rowe, which was his last
play and the most successful play of the season. As

(24:32):
we said at the top of the show, there's a
lot of detail we just don't have about Lady Jane Gray,
and a lot of people imagine her and have depicted
her as this sort of completely lacking agency teenage waif
who was pushed from place to place by parents and
guardians and Northumberland and everyone else. But given her intelligence

(24:55):
and her education and the fact that she had been
immersed in a very cutthroat nobility since her birth, it's
unlikely that she was the totally unresisting pawn that she's
often depicted as. A lot of more contemporary scholars have
have compared her behavior to other people who were within
the nobility and the monarchy and the ways that they

(25:20):
displayed their own sort of cunning efforts to define themselves
and are like, yeah, she, yeah, she There were a
lot of things she didn't have control over, but you know,
her continual assertion of her religious faith and the fact
that she deliberately did things to try to distance her

(25:40):
religion from treason against the monarchy, Like these were all
proactive steps she took for herself that were quite smart, uh,
to to try to keep keep the Protestant faith from
being tarnished by her role in all of this. Yeah,
that that whole cutthroat and love the monarchy and the

(26:02):
royal whole more. Ass is why I think I always
have a disconnect where I kind of don't get it
because I feel like, and granted I'm looking at this
from a very modern perspective, but I feel like if
I were involved in all of that, I'd be like,
that's cool, I don't need to rain. That's I'm just

(26:22):
gonna go over here and have like maybe a little
shop and be alive. That sounds fine. Yeah, but I
guess and you are raised to believe that it is
your birthright and that that's the most important thing on earth,
you would be more invested in it, unless like a
hippie like me, that's like, that's cool, let's just leave
this alone. Don't need to have any of that. Yeah,

(26:43):
Like that's it kind of gets on a couple of
things get on my nerves. One is that a lot
of the very basic summaries of this whole thing leave
out that she was actually a relative. They make it
sound almost like she was a hapless teenager plucked out
of nowhere and stuck into the line of succession, which
that is not really the case, um. And the other

(27:07):
is how many just seemed to portray her as a
blank slate of parental ambition, uh who had no say,
and it would really we know that she was quite
quite intelligent and that she corresponded with scholars uh in
in Britain and on the continent like she had. She
had a lot more going on than just um a

(27:32):
political pond for other people to stick somewhere. We have
a bit of business before we jump to listener mail. Yeah,
this march, lots of podcasts are encouraging folks to try
lots of other podcasts. It is uh called tripod hashtag
tripod spelled t r y pod, not tripod like on

(27:53):
a camera. One of the podcasts that I have enjoyed
a whole whole lot is Welcome to Night Bail, which
is very different from our own podcast. It is a
a fiction told through a local radio broadcast, UM, with
a cast of characters who I genuinely love. The one

(28:16):
episode came out uh not that long ago and was
genuinely touching and moving in so many ways. Anyway, I
love it a whole whole lot. So if you go
onto Twitter search the hashtag tripod t R y p
o D. You will find lots of shows that people
are talking about and recommending, so you can find new

(28:36):
stuff to listen to yourself. And I do also have
some listener mail. Uh. This is a subject that a
lot of people have written to us about, So I'm
just picking one of the ones, one of the things
that has come in, and it is from Kate, and
I think this might actually be the first one that
came in. Kate says, love the podcast. I've learned so

(28:56):
much driving to and from work and look forward to
learning a lot more were I live in Wisconsin and
found the butter versus Marjarine episode very interesting. Is my
mother could remember driving uh to Illinois with her mother
to stuck up for Marjarine for their family and friends.
Apparently Wisconsin is still enforcing a not that old law
about butter quality, and people are still smuggling contraband butter

(29:19):
into the states. We have standards and fancy imported butter
totally doesn't measure up. Here's a link to a story
that aired yesterday. Yesterday at that point was February four, UH,
and she says, I hope you find this as amusing
as I do. Kate, we have gotten so many links
to different versions of this story. And basically, the long
and short of it is a lot of people are

(29:41):
drinking something that is called bulletproof tea or bulletproof coffee,
which involves putting butter. Yeah, that kind of had like
a big surge in popularity a couple of years ago. Yeah,
there's still people hanging onto that. Yep, and everybody's uh.
The the go to is UH is grass fed butter,
which is kind of hard to find, and the favorite,

(30:03):
apparently in this particular area UM is Carrie Gold pure
Irish butter. And the issue is that there's a state
law that requires butter that's sold in Wisconsin to be
tested by experts and then it's supposed to get a
letter grade for quality. But since this butter is from Ireland,
it's not tested in the United States, and it's not
getting scorts and disappearing from people's grocery store shelves, and

(30:26):
they are quite upset about it. So a whole lot
of folks have told us about that. I thought we
would share it with the rest of you. I will
briefly tell the story of how much I've kind of
laughed when the whole butter in your coffee trend begin.
You and I have a utual friend who has always
put butter in her coffee? Is it, Lily? It is?
And the funny thing is that, like I have, would

(30:48):
be at her house many times when she would entertain,
and she would always put butter in people's coffee. People
would go on and on about how delicious it was,
and then they would say, what do you put in
this coffee to make it so yummy? And she would
have a butter in it, and they would act like
she had said she had put like dog hair in it,
butter in the coffee. And now butter is this big
popular thing, and it corrects me up every time somebody

(31:09):
talks about it. I um, I have never tried butter
in my coffee or in my tea, but I have,
you know, read uh, descriptions of various cultures who like,
that's the standard thing is having uh, you know, as
some kind of buttery beverage that is hot uh. And

(31:30):
I imagine that it's probably quite good, but I have
never personally tried it myself. It's pretty yummy. So if
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(31:50):
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you can come to our website, which is a miss
in history dot com. You will find an archive of
every single episode that has ever happened. You'll also find
show notes for all the episodes Holly and I have

(32:12):
done and we are We're going to start combining those
show notes with the page of the podcast is actually on,
so everything is in one place, so no no more
having to hunt in two different places for that. So
you can do all of that and so much more
at how stuff works dot com or miss in history
dot com for more on this and thousands of other topics.

(32:35):
Is it how stuff works dot com