Linda Hazzard and Starvation Heights

Hazzard had no medical training but called herself a doctor. Her patients often signed over all their money to her, gave her their jewelry, and made her their legal guardian, even as she starved them to death in a "sanitarium" in rural Washington.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how
Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.
I'm trained Cevie Wilson and I'm Holly Frying. Today's podcast
is a creepy one. Yeah a woman, yes, yes, and no.

(00:23):
I mean it's creepy, but it's also horrible. It's about
a woman who had no medical training but called herself
a doctor, and she had an uncanny ability to inspire
a total devotion in her patients, to the point that
they would sign over all their money to her and
their jewelry, they would make her their legal guardian, they
would will her all of their stuff, and they did

(00:43):
this even as she was literally starving them to death
in a sanitarium in rural Washington. If that sounds disturbing
to you, that's your heads up. Her name was Dr
Linda Hazard, the doctor being basically made up, and the
health facility that she ran was in a Lala, which

(01:04):
is across the Puget Sound from Seattle. This property was
originally called Wilderness Heights, but locals came to call it
Starvation Heights. For this episode is a listener request from
Sarah Sierra and and probably some other people. And then
Heather requested it while I was about halfway through the research. Yeah,

(01:24):
that was fortuitous timing on Heather's side. O uh. Linda
Hazard was born Linda Burfield in Carver County, Minnesota in
eighteen sixty seven. She got married at about the age
of eighteen, and she had two children. However, in eighteen
ninety eight, when she would have been thirty or thirty one,
she left that family and she moved to Minneapolis to

(01:45):
pursue a career in alternative medicine. The quote natural remedy
that she advocated was fasting. The idea that you can
improve your health through fasting is not new. Cultures all
over the world have promoted temporary fasting for both health
and religious purposes for basically most of human history, and
of course there are famous stories of mystics and ascetics

(02:07):
and people on hunger strikes who fasted for a lot
longer than that. Today, there are even some studies to
suggest that short term fasting might actually have some health
benefits um and the same istry of like a longer term,
lower calorie diet. A lot of this research is pretty
much in the category of preliminary but worth studying further.
But none of this that we're talking about, these studies

(02:30):
that have happened, are really related to what Linda Hazard
was doing. Her patients would subsist on a couple of
ounces of broth for extended periods of time. They would
undergo a percussive massage that some witnesses described as more
akin to a beating, and there were enemas that took hours.
They were meant to cleanse the colon of impacted matter

(02:51):
and of bile that Hazard claimed was generated by the
fasting process. By nineteen o two, after she'd moved to
set up up in Minneapolis, Linda Hazard and her first
husband had divorced, and that same year, a patient in
her care died of what the coroner determined to be starvation.
The coroner actually advocated charging Hazard for this death, but

(03:14):
because of a legal loophole, the fact that she wasn't
actually a doctor meant she could not be held accountable
for what seemed like a clear result of her so
called medical treatments. She had withheld food from that patient,
and that patient had died. Also in the early nine hundreds,
she met Samuel Christian Hazard, who she would go on
to marry. He was a graduate of West Point who

(03:36):
had been married twice, although at least one of those
marriages had not been legally dissolved at the time that
he married Linda. So Sam hazard wound up on trial
for bigamy in nineteen o four and was sentenced to
two years in prison. Although the rest of this podcast
was mostly focused on Linda, Sam was her accomplice, especially
when it came to getting control over patients money relevant

(03:58):
to that piece of the story. He was also a
graduate of West Point who misappropriated military funds, which ended
his career in the Army. In nineteen o six, after
Sam got out of prison, he and Linda moved to
the Pacific Northwest. Linda established an office in Seattle and
began treating patients via fasting because she had already established

(04:18):
this practice. When the state of Washington began to require
doctors to have licenses to practice medicine, she was able
to get one. She and other natural practitioners who were
already working in the area were allowed to just claim
a license and continue to practice. Soon she started planning
a sanitarium on a forty acre property that was owned

(04:39):
by state Legislator Louis E. Rader, who was a patient
of hers. That was the property that was known as
Wilderness Heights. In eight she self published a book called
The Fasting Cure for Disease. There are at least five
editions of this book, and all of the ones that
Tracy found started with quote, Appetite is craving hungary desire.

(05:01):
Craving is never satisfied, but desire is relieved when want
is supplied. Eating without hunger or pandering to appetite at
the expensive digestion makes disease inevitable. At the start of
the editions of the books, she also thinks thanks eight Dewey,
who was another proponent of fasting for medical purposes, and

(05:22):
she claims to have studied with him, although that's not
clear whether that really happened. Here are some of the
things she advocated, all taken from the edition of the book. First,
she claimed that fasting could not kill you. Quote. Popular
belief and medical teaching lead to the conclusion that abstinence
from food for ten or twelve days will result in

(05:44):
starvation or death. This is easily refuted. On my lists
are considerably over one thousand instances of continuous fasts whose
limits extend from ten to seventy five days. She goes
on to write, in twelve years, only eleven patients have
died while under my care. Each of these deaths has
proved an occasion for persecution, malignment, prosecution, and injury. From

(06:08):
each and every case, both I and the method have
emerged triumphant, the autopsy showing organic disease and that death
was inevitable. So basically, she was saying, it was never
the fasting that killed you, it was the underlying illnesses
that you were treating with fasting. And as a side
note in terms of saying that the autopsies revealed that
an underlying disease caused the death, these were autopsies she

(06:31):
conducted herself handy uh. In her description, you need to
rest your digestive system just like you need to rest
your legs after you go for a long run. Also,
according to her, food is poisoned. At this point, I
would close the book on Linda Hazard and bid her
ad you Uh. Disease, according to her, was a product

(06:53):
of your body being out of balance, and fasting restored
that balance. Without food to deal with, your kidneys and
your liver could go on doing their jobs, but this
time they would really purify your body and your blood,
not just play catchup based on what you ate. She
goes on to make a lot of the same claims
that come up in quackery cases today. She claims that

(07:14):
drugs are poison, and that traditional medicine is dying, and
that you can treat literally anything with the right natural cure.
And in spite of her insistence that fasting could not
kill you, like she very cavalierly admitted in her own book,
a lot of her patients did die, and we're going
to talk about some of that after a brief word
from one of our great sponsors, to return to the

(07:36):
story of Linda Hazard. She attracted the same sorce of
patients who visited other sanitariums and health reform centers in
the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. For the most part,
these are people who were affluent, They had lots of
leisure time, and they didn't feel quite well. However, at
most of these places, including the past podcast subject Battle

(07:58):
Creek Sanitarium, which was run by John rvy Kellogg, patients
did not die from their treatments. That was not the
case with Linda Hazard. Daisy Maud Hagland was a Seattle
area patient originally from Norway, and she died on February
twenty six and nineteen o eight after a fifty day
fast under Lynda Hazard's care. She was thirty eight, and

(08:19):
she left behind a young son, Ivor, who grew up
to start the Seattle seafood chain Ivers, which is mentioned
in just about every article that you see about this
whole event. Yeah, I can't I can't quite figure out
whether people mention it invariably because that restaurant chain is
really famous in Seattle, or because it seems kind of
ironic that his mother died of starvation and then he

(08:40):
grew up to start a famous restaurant chain, Probably a
combination of the two. In nineteen o nine, a decomposing
body was found on the Hazards property, and it was
later identified as belonging to Eugene Stanley Wakeland. He was
twenty six. The cause of death was a bullet wound
to the head. He was an another one of Hazard's patients,

(09:01):
and his death was originally reported as a suicide. However,
later on the British Vice consul theorized that one of
the Hazards had actually shot him after learning that in
spite of being the son of a British lord, he
did not actually have a lot of money for them
to would start from him, so these and other deaths
did indeed attract attention. Seattle newspapers covered these incidents as

(09:25):
they came up, and local residents reported finding wandering, severely
emaciated people on their property looking for help. But the
state of Washington didn't yet have any kind of laws
governing medical malpractice. That wouldn't happen until nineteen so when
people were dying in hazard's care after undergoing treatment that
they had apparently willingly signed up for and in some

(09:47):
cases even supposedly signed legal documents, authorizing authorities didn't feel
like there was really much that they could do. That
changed with British sisters Claire and Dorothy Williamson. Athea, who
was known as Dora, was thirty seven and Claire was
thirty four. Both of their parents had died, but their father,
who had been an army officer, had left them enough

(10:09):
money for the two of them to be quite comfortable,
and they were both very interested in their health. They
were vegetarians, and they had stopped wearing corsets. Both of
these decisions were motivated by a belief that the things
that they were turning away from were bad for them,
and neither of them considered themselves to be in the
best of health. Dorothea Dora, as we had mentioned quote,
suffered occasionally from rheumatism and indigestion. According to court documents,

(10:34):
Claire reportedly had a displaced uterus, and they had taken
a number of natural cures to try to feel better.
Their family did not approve, so they just stopped telling
their aunts and uncles what they were up to. I
could not figure out whether Claire legitimately had an actual
physical uh like misplacement in her uterus, like that is

(10:54):
a thing that can happen, but also weird non problems
with women's uteruses where often part of medical quackery and
the moment, especially nineteenth century, and I could not figure
out which one of those two things that was. In
September of nineteen ten, the two sisters were visiting Victoria,

(11:15):
British Columbia, and they saw an ad for Limba Hazards
Sanitarium and a Seattle newspaper that their hotel had on hand.
Claire wrote the Hazard for more information, and Hazard forwarded
a copy of her book and a brochure about the sanitarium.
The Williamson's thought that Hazard Sanitarium sounded ideal for them.
They envisioned this as an idyllic retreat where they would

(11:36):
be sustained by delicate broth made from locally farmed ingredients,
so they kept up a correspondence with Hazard that lasted
through February of nineteen eleven. They had originally planned to
leave the United States bound for Britain and Australia, but
they decided instead to stop first in Seattle and undertake
hazard S cure. When they arrived in Seattle on February

(11:58):
twenty six, nineteen eleven, they found that the institute was
not ready to receive patients yet. Hazard instead got them
an apartment in Seattle's Capitol Hill, and they each agreed
to pay her sixty dollars per month for Monday to
Friday treatments that would include, in the words of documents
included in Hazard's appeal quote massage or rubbing the abstaining
from food except fruit juice, asparagus, water, and vegetable broth

(12:22):
with a small bit of butter. They're in about as
large as the thumbnail. A warm bath every day or
practically every day, and an enema from four to six
quarts of warm water each day. This diet also was
not the farm fresh, locally sourced fair that they had
been hoping for. It was mostly made from canned tomatoes.
The sisters went from their apartment to Hazard's Seattle office

(12:44):
Monday to Friday, as agreed from February until about the
fifteenth of March, and at that point they became too
weak to be able to leave their apartment, so Hazard
came to them, giving them their multi hour enemas in
the bathtub, which was fitted with canvas supports. Once their
treatments made them too weak to stand. As the two
sisters got weaker, Hazard started to ask them about their family,

(13:08):
their money, their jewelry, their legal affairs. She took all
of their jewelry and their personal papers with her when
she left one day, telling them that it was not
safe keeps such such things in their apartment. The Williamson's
sisters treatment in Seattle went on until April twenty second,
nineteen eleven, when they were transferred to Allala, and it
still wasn't a sanitarium so much as a space in

(13:30):
the Allala home. Their health at this point was precarious
enough that they each were carried to a separate ambulance
by stretcher, and once they got to the sound, they
were taken across in a private boat. Before they left, though,
Hazard's attorney arrived at the dock and got clear to
sign a will that left an annuity to the sanitarium,
as well as documents that signed all the money in

(13:52):
her bank account over to Hazard. At this point, the
two sisters reportedly each weighed only about seventy pounds. After
their moved to a lala, their health, of course, continued
to deteriorate. They started to lose consciousness during their massages
and their enemy treatments. One of them stumped their childhood nurse,
Margaret Conway an odd telegram on April thirty that year,

(14:16):
asking her to come and visit them in a lalla.
She was alarmed by this term telegram and worried for
their safety, so she left Australia and took a ship
to Vancouver. It would take her until June to get
to Seattle. Meanwhile, in mid May, Hazard expressed doubt that
Claire Williamson would recover, not from the treatment but from

(14:37):
the ailments that the treatment was supposedly purging from her body,
and on May nineteenth of nineteen eleven, Claire did indeed die.
Hazard waited three days to inform their uncle, John Herbert,
who lived in Portland and who she already knew how
to contact, that his niece had died. At this point,
she and her sister each weight about half of what

(14:58):
they had before star Hazard's treatments. On Hazard filed a
petition to make to be made Dora's legal guardian, claiming
that she was an invalid and mentally incompetent to manage
her own affairs. This petition was granted. Also in May,
Louis E. Rader, who was the person who had owned

(15:19):
the property that this sanitarium was built on, also died. He,
as we said, had been a patient of Hazards. He
had been staying in a hotel near Pike Place Market
in Seattle, but when the police tried to question him
about what was going on at his old Wilderness Heights property,
Hazard moved him someone else somewhere else in secret, where

(15:39):
he later died. When Margaret Conway arrived in Seattle on
June one, Hazard's husband, Samuel Hazard, broke the news that
Claire was dead as they wrote a bus to Conway's hotel.
Upon seeing her body, which had been embalmed in placed
on display at Butterworth Mortuary in Seattle, nWay was immediately

(16:01):
suspicious that something was going on. This body did not
look like Claire to her, and it wasn't just because
it was almost skeletal. It was because the bone structure
of the body itself didn't look like Claire's to her.
The bones in the hands and the face were shaped
all wrong, and her hair was a different color. Then
Conway went to a lala where she found that Dora

(16:22):
only weighed about fifty pounds and was so amaciated that
she couldn't even sit without serious pain. In spite of
her obvious horrible physical condition, Dora refused to leave. Plus
as we alluded to earlier, the Williams and the sisters
had at this point signed away everything they had to
the Hazards. In addition to being named Dora's guardian, Linda

(16:45):
Hazard had been named the executor of Claire's estate, and
her husband had power of attorney over Dora. Linda Hazard
had also started wearing the sister's clothing and jewelry, including
when she met with their childhood nurse Conway. nWay immediately
sent for John Herbert, who came to see what was
going on, and only after he agreed to pay the

(17:05):
Hazards a thousand dollars, which was negotiated down from their
initial demand of two thousand dollars, did they allow Dora
to leave. It's not clear whether this was a bill
or some sort of ransom. Conway nursed the surviving Williamson's
sister back to health at this point, that's by starvation
under the care of Linda. Hazard were really well known

(17:26):
in the Seattle area. Articles in the Seattle Daily Times
were running under headlines like woman air quote m d
air quote kills another patient. But as we said earlier,
authorities did not feel like they had the jurisdiction to
put a stop to it, which is why John Herbert
took the matter to the British consul in Tacoma. The

(17:46):
British government started to pressure Kitsap County, Washington to charge
Hazard with murder. The county was small and rural, and
when it claimed it couldn't afford such an expensive legal proceeding,
Dorothea Williamson offered to pay for it. We're going to
talk about the trial and what happened afterward. After another
brief word from one of our great sponsors, so Linda

(18:08):
Hazard was finally arrested on August fifteenth, nineteen eleven. She
was charged with first degree murder and the death of
Claire Williamson, and the trial began the following January. Nurses
and servants from the household testified about horrifying conditions at
the Alala Sanitarium. Witnesses also spoke about the way the
Hazards had gotten their patients to hand over all their assets.

(18:31):
The prosecution framed this as quote financial starvation. There were
also numerous instances of fraud in which both Hazards had
forged documents and faked diary entries to get money and
possessions that their patients would not give them willingly. Some
of these documents that were saying that they people were

(18:51):
willingly under Hazard's care had in fact been forged. The
Butterworth Mortuary, where Claire Williamson's body had been displayed, was
accused of collusion as well. It was never proved, but
accusations were made that the mortuary had swapped Claire's body
for one that was not quite so skeletal. Throughout all
of this, Linda Hazard maintained her innocence, regardless of how

(19:15):
little a patient had eaten or how clearly their cause
of death was started at starvation and Hazard's assertion it
was not the fasting that did it. She also claimed
that she was being unfairly persecuted and that this was
the reason that she was being accused of murder, not
because of having starved patients to death. And this continues
to be true, and quackery cases that that come up today,

(19:38):
the people on trial will will claim that they are
being unjustly persecuted by the medical establishment, when really they
are the ones who have the real answers. She refused
to take the stand in her own defense, saying it
was because the jury was all male and that if
they had been women, she would have done it. Other
purveyors of natural cures agreed with Hazard that she was

(19:58):
not to blame. Henry S. Tanner, who was known for
a public forty day fast in New York City more
than thirty days before all of this business, offered to
testify for the defense, but he was never called. Although
Hazard was found guilty, it was ultimately of manslaughter, not
a first degree murder. Her medical license was revoked and

(20:19):
she was sentenced to prison in the state penitentiary at
Walla Lalla for quote not more than twenty years and
not less than two years. She served two years of
her sentence, spending much of that time fasting and an
attempt to prove that she was really innocent. She also
tried to appeal, citing twelve different purported instances of errors
and misconduct at her previous trial. And we're gonna link

(20:42):
to all of this appeal in our show notes because
it is a dizzying read in your most clear headed state. Definite, Yes,
it was too dizzying to try to like distilled down
to a podcast sentence. Yeah, you definitely want to have
a cup of coffee or whatever else wakes you have

(21:02):
before you tackle that. August twelfth of nineteen thirteen, the
State of Washington issued a ruling that her previous trial
had in fact been fair. Extremely long story short quote.
Considering the entire record in this case, it is clear
that the defendant had a fair trial. Her attorneys were
alert to protect her interests. There is substantial evidence to
support the verdict of the jury. The trial court in

(21:25):
imposing sentence tempered justice with mercy. The judgment will therefore
be affirmed. After she was paroled and the governor pardoned
her and exchanged for a promise that she leaves Washington,
she did. She moved to New Zealand for a while,
where a sizable group of people supported her and advocated
her treatments. Then after a while, she moved back to

(21:46):
Allala in nineteen twenty with the intent of building a
one bed school for health. She wound up in court
again in the mid nineteen twenties, having been fined for
practicing medicine without a license. Her argument was she had
been pardoned by the governor and that the revocation of
her license was part of the punishment for having been
convicted of manslaughter, but since she had been pardoned of

(22:08):
that crime, she should have that license back. The court
ruled that while some inalienable rights do revert to someone
after a pardon, you have no intrinsic right to a
licensed to practice medicine if you are not qualified to
do it. Her institute burned down in five and at
that point her popularity had really waned. There were only
about a dozen patients being housed there. Hazard began a

(22:32):
fast three years later after falling ill herself, and she
never recovered. She died in nine thirty eight at the
age of seventy one. So you can read multiple editions
of her book online for free because it's public domain. Now.
Google Books has a scan of one of them that
was donated to Harvard. When I started reading it, I
was like, why does this name of the person who

(22:54):
owned this book sounds so familiar to me? And then
I was reading and I realized the original owner of
the copy of the book that that was donated to
Harvard that Google Books has hand was Horace Fletcher, the
great masticator, the guy who advocated chewing your food like
a bazillion times until it was kind of glossily slid

(23:15):
slid down your throat. And there are a bunch of
notes in the margin. I found them very disturbing because
they're all about how Linda Hazard really has a point here.
And I don't know if they're Horace Fletcher's notes or
the notes of whoever got the book from him, because
he himself is not the person who made the donation
to Harvard. But yeah, that was the most disturbing thing

(23:37):
that I read in this, Like there are all these
accounts of these horrible things that happened in her sanitarium.
But the thing that, uh, that really creeped me out
the most was whoever was writing in the margins saying
that all of these things she was writing, which are
made up and wrong, were in fact great. Yeah, that's
troubling for sure. Although some of the outbuildings and the

(24:00):
smaller structures from the institute still stand, all that's left
of the main buildings or the foundation in the concrete
tower that may have housed an incinerator. A cottage that
it has some of the patients was purchased by a
private citizen about thirty years ago, and its history was
not disclosed to the buyers. Because some of the bodies
were reportedly burned, buried in the woods, or dumped into

(24:20):
the sound. There's actually no official death toll. Numbers range
from a dozen to more than forty. There's also a
whole book about it, written by somebody who actually lives
in the Allowa area, which is aptly named Starvation Heights. Oh,
Linda Hazard, Obviously I have no patients for her medical question. Well,

(24:42):
and it's one of those things. Um I lived in
the city Northwest when I was a kid, and I
do vaguely remember one of my parents making sort of
a Ma Cob joke when I didn't want to eat
something on my plate at one point, saying like, do
you think this is a Linda hazard treatment? Were you like,
what is that about? Yeah? I had no idea. And

(25:03):
then later on as I got older, it's one of
those things that does come up if you live there. Uh,
you'll eventually hear stories of it. And I was like, oh, oh,
everything is illuminated now I understand that that sort of
creating at the dinner table. Yeah. Well, I don't know
if we have ever talked on the show before about
how I spent some years of my life as a

(25:23):
licensed massage therapist. Uh. And I worked with a lot
of people who were great, who were just basically about
feeling better and and and having a good degree of wellness.
And then there were a few people who I worked
with who were not, and they would advocate these things
that were dangerous and damaging, and I was like, I
can't that. I know that's not okay to be telling

(25:48):
people is true about their health that is in fact harmful. Um.
And one of the things I was most relieved about
when I ceased to be a licensed massage therapist is uh,
the people who are advocating things that are quackery and
are either outright dangerous and damaging to people, or give

(26:08):
people false hope for something that's not actually going to
help them with a serious illness. Yeah, those are troubling,
and I find they happen in uh, they span out.
They're not just in things like massage, but like if
you go to an esthetician, even like in the beauty
of history, there are a lot of treatments that will

(26:30):
be purported as very natural and curative in some way
of some you know, like a skin condition or whatever,
and they're really just products being sold to make dollars. Yeah.
My worst skincare experience of my entire life was uh,

(26:51):
an all natural thing that one of the places I
worked was selling that I tried because I bought this
whole idea that maybe my skin would not break out
if I only put this natural stuff on it. And
what really happened wasn't My skin broke out worse than
it ever had been in my entire life, And representatives
of that company told me it was my fault for
clearly being a sensitive person. Huh. Yeah, that's the thing

(27:15):
to remember. Not all natural remedies. That doesn't always mean
they're gentle and soothing either. There are lots of things
in the natural world that can hurt you. Yep. So anyway,
Linda Hazard, I obviously murdered a whole bunch of people,
and then I also am intolerant of her medical quackery.

(27:36):
There you go. Do you also have some listener mail
for us? I knew it is from Jason, and Jason says, Hi,
Holly and Tracy, thanks so much for including a classical
music episode and stuff you within history class. I was
excited to finally hear about a subject area that I'm
particularly passionate about as I'm a classically trained composer. Yes,
we still exist. I wanted to address a point that

(27:57):
you seem to struggle with regarding the reasoning why classical
muse usitions tend to make list out to be a
better performer than composer. I think you touched on an
important point when you mentioned jealousy. Certainly, haters of any
era are gonna hate, but there is more prominent, or
at least more openly cited reason for lists not quite
first rate status as a composer, which is unique to

(28:17):
classical music's value system. In our musical tradition, there is
an accepted divide between the piece and the performance, a
concept which today's musical traditions make little distinction over. When
you think about classical music, it makes sense performer A
can be can play a piece by composer B, and
we can judge the merits of these elements independently. Mary

(28:37):
Jones did a great job playing Beethoven's third piano Sonata
Opus two number three. That piece is wonderful. Consider similar
praise awarded to a popular music group I love the
Beatles song I Want to Hold Your Hand. Even if
List were performing his own compositions, he wouldn't be evaluated
as the singer songwriter, but separately as a composer and performer.

(28:58):
How does this attitude a fly to the reception of
lists compositions. When classical musicians look at pieces by list,
they see a lot of what makes the late Romantic
piano style great. An expressive sense of drama, use of
all the ranges of the piano, and textures resembling a
bazilion notes flying by at breakneck pace. But when we

(29:19):
are also trained to look through all the notes to
an underlying musical structure beneath the surface of the music.
If you're not familiar with music theory or have no
classical music training, this can be difficult concept to articulate.
An email, he provides a link for a little bit
of context. What does that Some folks take issue with
the integrity of his work. What the haters hate about
list music is that there is a decidedly performative focus

(29:43):
on his music, contrary to the customary preference for the
architectural focus. To put it bluntly, the hater's field that
lists music is all sizzle, no stake. People dismiss his
music because of the obvious virtuosity demonstrated in its performance,
considering it gaudy. I like to thinking of it as
musical wasps versus the neuvau reach. Compared to a similar

(30:03):
piece by Brahms, whose piano music is also virtualistic in
its own right, it doesn't feel as enriching, say the haters. Luckily,
lists music has been getting a fairer shake in more
recent years. He did a lot to advance the classical
music's harmony, as he noted in the podcast. Although I
thought your use of the term avant garde was an
appropriate that refers to a very specific period of music
decade later. Consider it this piece by list and he

(30:27):
has a link to it which explores the podcast classical
Scales and Ven's harmony to just before it breaks. Uh.
And then he says he hopes that we do some
more pieces on classical music and offers some resources in
case that we do. So, thank you Jason for sending
that email. I actually did look up avant garde and

(30:47):
whether it was appropriate to use before I said that
in the podcast and a thing that I had found
UM talked about Wagner being considered an avant garde musician,
and since we also talked about Wagner in the episode, Uh,
I did not think that was incorrect, so apparently it was.
But otherwise, thank you for sending all of that context

(31:08):
that I did not have when we did that when
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(31:31):
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(31:53):
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(32:18):
h