December 3, 2008 • 14 mins
With much of America's workforce fighting in World War II, women broke past traditional gender stereotypes and gained employment in industries formally restricted to men. Check out this HowStuffWorks podcast to learn more about Rosie the Riveter.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how
Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.
I'm editor Kane to Skipson, joined by staff Riyar Chamber, Heather,
Candice Jane. What's your favorite icon? Um? Maybe Mr Clean. Oh,
(00:23):
that's a good choice. I'm partial to and I also
like um the snuggle bear you know from Is It Downy? Yeah?
I think so. Advertisers have a way of hooking us
and drawing us to their products, and even if we
don't go out and buy the products, we still have
an allegiance to them because they have this cute or
(00:45):
quirky or tough character that we associate with it. That's true,
and we were sort of convinced by the way they
look the visual representation of it. It's very convincing. And
that's the power of propaganda really, and propaganda, depending on
how you look at it, can be a good or
or a bad thing. Essentially, when propaganda convinces a bunch
(01:06):
of people to act in a way that benefits you know,
a nation or an organization, it has a pretty positive effect.
But when propaganda convinces people to act out negatively or
to act in ways that don't benefit mankind. That's when
we say it's you know, it's bad propagandas right, And
one of the most famous instances of I guess bad
(01:27):
propaganda would be, uh, during the Nazi regime in Germany,
Like they had this whole machine basically that produced propaganda
to sway people over to the Nazi side, and various
forms of propaganda, not just posters, but film and I
think even music and even just I guess efforts. Really,
if you could call efforts propaganda, I think that they
(01:49):
made radios readily available so the people could hear broadcasts
from Hitler and as far as the Americans go, during
World War Two, if you ask anyone whether my ist
famous propaganda icon is from that era, I bet you
dollars to donuts that most people will say Rosie the
Versie the Riveter. And ironically enough, yeah, the image of
(02:12):
Versie the Riveter was produced during World War Two, but
it wasn't popularized until the nineteen eighties. And I think
that's where people really get the story of Rosie wrong. Yeah,
that's right. And the name Rosie was known during the
war and it was associated with women, women taking up
the man's role in the workplace. But it didn't. It
didn't actually have the picture that we associate with it today,
(02:33):
which was the we can do it lady with the
polka dot scarf on her head and the defiant look
in her eyes. Um. Rosie was known more so, um
won by a song. A song was written about Rosie
and uh that that was pretty popular, and I think
it was forty two and uh then by forty three, um,
the famous Norman Rockwell had had drawn his version of
(02:56):
Rosie and that was the picture that was actually very
famous during the war in America. Yeah, and as famous
as Rockwell is and his images from the Saturday Evening Post.
When I saw this image of Rosie the Riveter, I've
never seen it before, and it kind of took me
aback because I'm used to the iconic one with the
other background and the very jaunty head scarf and the
eyeliner and you know, very long eyelashes, very feminine Rosie
(03:20):
and we'll get to her in a second. But Rockwell's
Rosie is really really tough looking. Yeah. It's interesting. It's
very different to look at the two next to each other,
because like the Rosie, Rockwells Rosie is sort of she's
a relaxed story to she's taking a break from her work.
She has this lord, she has her tools on her,
(03:42):
she has goggles and everything, and she's just eating her
lunch on her break and and she's just sort of like, yeah, whatever.
And we know it's Rosie because on her lunch pail
it says Rosie and white letters. And Rockwell's paintings are
infused with so much symbolism. And if you really steady
this painting close so you can see all sorts of
(04:03):
things that that Rockwell is trying to get across to us.
For one, um, there's a flag in the background. She's
wearing a red cross button. I think she's got a
V for victory button. And she's seen in this very
all American bologna sandwich. And my favorite part of the
little clues inside is that she's standing on her for
her foot is over um the famous bookmont comp of course,
(04:24):
the autobiography of Adolf Hitler. So there you go that
packs of powerful statement in and of itself. And you
mentioned that she has tools in her lap, and we
should mention one of the tools or the main tool,
really is a riveting tool. So she is by all
definitions and all purposes a riveter. And so we have
this amalgamation of Americana and anti Nazi sentiment and femininity
(04:51):
because she is still a woman, and even though she
has muscles and she is you know and sort of
I guess traditional male garb, she does exude a certain
sense of femininity. Yeah, she's stills makeup on and she
she sort of embodies both both sides, I guess. Yeah.
And the thing that really touched me, and I didn't
see this connection on my own I I read about
it was that her stance actually mimics that of the
(05:14):
prophet Isaiah from the Sistine Chapel. Yeah, I read that too,
and that really shocked me into I went and looked
it up that that picture, and it really is strikingly similar.
That rock Will must have taken it from that, and
you get that sense that this image of Rosie, it's
very much Steve in antiquity and a higher purpose of sorts,
and he's almost making her an arc type, not just
(05:34):
for women, but just you know, for for people. You know,
this is what we should be during war time. We
should be active and proactive citizens who are educated and
patriotic and and doing what's right, And I guess the
word do that brings us back to the other image
of Rosie, the idea that Rosie was an empowering female
(05:57):
figure who told everyone that we can do. That's how
I think many of us look at her today, because
I think that most of us would imagine this other
polka dotted Rosie on color as opposed to the rackwell
rose a. Yeah, and like I said, it's much more defiant.
It like challenges the viewer to look at it. Yeah,
And I think that the history most of us know
behind this particular image is that it was propaganda, maybe
(06:20):
on behalf of the U. S. Government, maybe on behalf
of the National ad Council, and it was designed to
draw women into the workplace and motivate them to go
fill these wartime factory or other jobs like postal worker
jobs that had been vacated after the men had gone
to the battlefront. And that's not the case, that's right,
and it's it's it's an easy assumption to make comparing it,
especially to the Nazis of the time, like they were
(06:42):
actually the government was producing this propaganda where that that
wasn't the case for this this Rosie. She was actually
to demestify her a little bit. Drawn by J. Howard Miller,
and he didn't draw her of his own volition. He
was employed by an advertising agency and he was doing
this for Western as Electric Company. And the idea was
(07:02):
that this was a poster that was supposed to be
displayed for a very specific amount of time. Um, I
think even on the bottom of the poster you can
see in faint leonards it's just post from fed fifteen
through twenty eight, so much time. No, it's it's not,
But I guess it served its purpose. And there's a
long history behind Westinghouse Electric in manufacturing company and their factories.
(07:25):
They had many, many series of posters like this designed
to motivate and energize their workers. They weren't drawing people
into the workplace, they were trying to motivate those who
were already there. And furthermore, even if this Rosie was
trying to communicate a public message, it wouldn't have been
public beyond the walls of Westinghouse because it's intended for
(07:46):
private use only. So you can make the case that
this isn't this isn't for recruitment at all. This this
we can do it, Rosie, This was um. Uh what
I read was it was it um Rosie the polka
dotta Rosie could actually be away to um discourage sort
of labor labor movements inside of these Westinghouse factories that
they were sort of because communism was it was beginning
(08:08):
to be a problem. And uh so um the company
would would commission these these posters not to say, hey, women,
you should take up your man's work, but but instead
be like, do your job. And I think there were
actually three specific goals that Westinghouse had in mind behind
this pocad dot at Rosie and other posters and series
similar to that, and that was too increase production, decrease absenteeism,
(08:30):
and to keep strikes at bay. No one wanted that
rising in the factories. And when we look at this Rosie,
you know, like we sort of picked apart rockwells Rosie.
The different symbols there. There weren't many symbols when it
comes to PoCA dot at roseye to J. Howard Miller Rosie.
But you can see she is a Westinghouse employee. She
has the name tag on in the body of corner
it says Westinghouse. And I think a lot of reproductions today.
(08:53):
Jay Howard Miller's name has been cropped out, but clearly
this was produced on behalf of Westinghouse. And she is very,
very feminine, even more so compared to the Rockwell Rosie.
You can clearly see in her hand that she's wearing
a touch of neal polos. You can see the eyeliner,
you can see her momscara, you can see the little
(09:13):
curls of her hair underneath her head scarf. She's much
more attractive than the Rockwell Rosie in a lot of ways.
She is, and if you look at other posters that J.
Howard Miller designed, you can see that that's not uncommon.
She's actually the most rough and tumble of all the
women featured on Miller's posters. We see, you know, a
lot of the World War two sentiment or women are like,
(09:33):
you know, crying and maybe a caption was, you know,
um wanting won't bring him home any stereotypical with the
stereotypical woman who's wasting away at home waiting for a
man to come back. The idea of being go ahead
and get into the factory. We know that's not the
case with Miller's Rosie, but we know, through and through
she is a Westinghouse girl. And it's so funny because
(09:54):
if you look at some of the photographs of other
Westinghouse employees, or you read about Westinghouse history, you know
that that upward thrust of the fest is characteristic of
that company because they used to use it at meetings
or rallies to motivate the workers. So while today we
had a very feminist spent on what Rosie is saying,
(10:16):
we can do with that upward thrust of the fest
that would have been typical of men and women in
Westinghouse factories during World War Two. And it's it's interesting
also how this sort of flipped around, how like in
during World War Two, this Rockwell Rosie was the more
popular one, and how how this one came to be
if it was only seen by you know, so many
people working in those factories in those few months, um,
(10:39):
those few weeks. Uh. And it's interesting because it all
comes down to the fact that Rockwell's painting is actually copyrighted.
It's a copyrighted image and so you know, um, you
have to pay money to use it and or it's
like a protected but um Miller's uh drawing actually didn't
have any such protection, and so people could use it
for whatever they want, and it fit into the the
(11:03):
feminist um uh theory so well that it became so
popular and actually um succeed like it's a superseded Rockwell's painting.
I guess yeah. I think that today the National Archives
say it's one of the top ten most requested images.
And I think that as far as phonists go and
(11:23):
the idea of correcting the misconceptions we have behind Rosie,
this is a perfect demonstration, like we said, because she
was representative of of the men and women in Westinghouse factories.
That speaks volumes because other women who went to work
not just as riveters, but in other fields of the
manufacturing industry or even as postal workers. When the men
came back from war, they were asked to leave their jobs.
(11:46):
You know, this wasn't the huge floodgate opening of women
shuffling into the workplace that we would like to think
and hope that it was. I think, like, you did
your job and now you know, go home. Yeah, we
appreciate it, thanks a lot. We're done here. And I
think to an extent it did open a floodgat of
source because women saw that they were capable, that you know,
they could do men's work. It wasn't as hard as
(12:08):
they had imagined. They could still be feminine and still
be women while they did it. But there was also
a very early type of glass ceiling that we see too,
because even though they were doing the same work that
men had done before the war, they weren't getting paid
as much. And there weren't as many women coming into
the workplace from homes and the private sector as there
(12:29):
were women who were already in the workplace, or minority women,
un married women who were just getting into these manufacturing
positions to get higher wages. That's what I was surprised at.
You know, you we we buy into this myth that um,
all of a sudden, mothers started to start working at
factories where like the fathers were in the family were
and and that wasn't really the case. It was women
who were not married housewives. They were just looking for,
(12:52):
you know, a job to feed themselves, right, And that's
an important detail to know. If you look at Rockwell's
Rosie and Miller's Rosie and nine, there is wearing a
wedding ring at any swords and uh one thing that
also a slide thing about Rockwell's Rosie is that she's
actually wearing loafers as opposed to what men of the
time would be wearing, which would steel toed boots for
(13:13):
a riveter, like you're doing this heavy work and you
should have protected feet. And they actually didn't make uh
these steel toed um women's shoes at the time until
a little bit later, like towards the end of the war.
And um, so it was actually very accurate and Rockwell
to incorporate those brown loafers into Rosy. Yeah, they got
all the details right. And it seems so ironic today
(13:34):
that you can get this famous miller. We can do
an image on everything from ovenmits, aprons to coffee cups.
I mean things we may associate with a housewife, you know,
an apron and an oven met, but it's an image
that people are very fond of, you know, almost as
fond as I am of you know, a little little
snuggle bear. So um. Now, hopefully you know the real
(13:56):
story of Rosie Riter and you won't make a mistake
that many many people do about her. And if you
want to learn even more about Rosie in World War
two history and just women in general. Be sure to
visit how stuff works dot com. For more on this
and thousands of other topics. Visit how stuff works dot com.
Let us know what you think. Send an email to
(14:18):
podcast at how stuff works dot com
Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how
Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.
I'm editor Kane to Skipson, joined by staff Riyar Chamber, Heather,
Candice Jane. What's your favorite icon? Um? Maybe Mr Clean. Oh,
(00:23):
that's a good choice. I'm partial to and I also
like um the snuggle bear you know from Is It Downy? Yeah?
I think so. Advertisers have a way of hooking us
and drawing us to their products, and even if we
don't go out and buy the products, we still have
an allegiance to them because they have this cute or
(00:45):
quirky or tough character that we associate with it. That's true,
and we were sort of convinced by the way they
look the visual representation of it. It's very convincing. And
that's the power of propaganda really, and propaganda, depending on
how you look at it, can be a good or
or a bad thing. Essentially, when propaganda convinces a bunch
(01:06):
of people to act in a way that benefits you know,
a nation or an organization, it has a pretty positive effect.
But when propaganda convinces people to act out negatively or
to act in ways that don't benefit mankind. That's when
we say it's you know, it's bad propagandas right, And
one of the most famous instances of I guess bad
(01:27):
propaganda would be, uh, during the Nazi regime in Germany,
Like they had this whole machine basically that produced propaganda
to sway people over to the Nazi side, and various
forms of propaganda, not just posters, but film and I
think even music and even just I guess efforts. Really,
if you could call efforts propaganda, I think that they
(01:49):
made radios readily available so the people could hear broadcasts
from Hitler and as far as the Americans go, during
World War Two, if you ask anyone whether my ist
famous propaganda icon is from that era, I bet you
dollars to donuts that most people will say Rosie the
Versie the Riveter. And ironically enough, yeah, the image of
(02:12):
Versie the Riveter was produced during World War Two, but
it wasn't popularized until the nineteen eighties. And I think
that's where people really get the story of Rosie wrong. Yeah,
that's right. And the name Rosie was known during the
war and it was associated with women, women taking up
the man's role in the workplace. But it didn't. It
didn't actually have the picture that we associate with it today,
(02:33):
which was the we can do it lady with the
polka dot scarf on her head and the defiant look
in her eyes. Um. Rosie was known more so, um
won by a song. A song was written about Rosie
and uh that that was pretty popular, and I think
it was forty two and uh then by forty three, um,
the famous Norman Rockwell had had drawn his version of
(02:56):
Rosie and that was the picture that was actually very
famous during the war in America. Yeah, and as famous
as Rockwell is and his images from the Saturday Evening Post.
When I saw this image of Rosie the Riveter, I've
never seen it before, and it kind of took me
aback because I'm used to the iconic one with the
other background and the very jaunty head scarf and the
eyeliner and you know, very long eyelashes, very feminine Rosie
(03:20):
and we'll get to her in a second. But Rockwell's
Rosie is really really tough looking. Yeah. It's interesting. It's
very different to look at the two next to each other,
because like the Rosie, Rockwells Rosie is sort of she's
a relaxed story to she's taking a break from her work.
She has this lord, she has her tools on her,
(03:42):
she has goggles and everything, and she's just eating her
lunch on her break and and she's just sort of like, yeah, whatever.
And we know it's Rosie because on her lunch pail
it says Rosie and white letters. And Rockwell's paintings are
infused with so much symbolism. And if you really steady
this painting close so you can see all sorts of
(04:03):
things that that Rockwell is trying to get across to us.
For one, um, there's a flag in the background. She's
wearing a red cross button. I think she's got a
V for victory button. And she's seen in this very
all American bologna sandwich. And my favorite part of the
little clues inside is that she's standing on her for
her foot is over um the famous bookmont comp of course,
(04:24):
the autobiography of Adolf Hitler. So there you go that
packs of powerful statement in and of itself. And you
mentioned that she has tools in her lap, and we
should mention one of the tools or the main tool,
really is a riveting tool. So she is by all
definitions and all purposes a riveter. And so we have
this amalgamation of Americana and anti Nazi sentiment and femininity
(04:51):
because she is still a woman, and even though she
has muscles and she is you know and sort of
I guess traditional male garb, she does exude a certain
sense of femininity. Yeah, she's stills makeup on and she
she sort of embodies both both sides, I guess. Yeah.
And the thing that really touched me, and I didn't
see this connection on my own I I read about
it was that her stance actually mimics that of the
(05:14):
prophet Isaiah from the Sistine Chapel. Yeah, I read that too,
and that really shocked me into I went and looked
it up that that picture, and it really is strikingly similar.
That rock Will must have taken it from that, and
you get that sense that this image of Rosie, it's
very much Steve in antiquity and a higher purpose of sorts,
and he's almost making her an arc type, not just
(05:34):
for women, but just you know, for for people. You know,
this is what we should be during war time. We
should be active and proactive citizens who are educated and
patriotic and and doing what's right, And I guess the
word do that brings us back to the other image
of Rosie, the idea that Rosie was an empowering female
(05:57):
figure who told everyone that we can do. That's how
I think many of us look at her today, because
I think that most of us would imagine this other
polka dotted Rosie on color as opposed to the rackwell
rose a. Yeah, and like I said, it's much more defiant.
It like challenges the viewer to look at it. Yeah,
And I think that the history most of us know
behind this particular image is that it was propaganda, maybe
(06:20):
on behalf of the U. S. Government, maybe on behalf
of the National ad Council, and it was designed to
draw women into the workplace and motivate them to go
fill these wartime factory or other jobs like postal worker
jobs that had been vacated after the men had gone
to the battlefront. And that's not the case, that's right,
and it's it's it's an easy assumption to make comparing it,
especially to the Nazis of the time, like they were
(06:42):
actually the government was producing this propaganda where that that
wasn't the case for this this Rosie. She was actually
to demestify her a little bit. Drawn by J. Howard Miller,
and he didn't draw her of his own volition. He
was employed by an advertising agency and he was doing
this for Western as Electric Company. And the idea was
(07:02):
that this was a poster that was supposed to be
displayed for a very specific amount of time. Um, I
think even on the bottom of the poster you can
see in faint leonards it's just post from fed fifteen
through twenty eight, so much time. No, it's it's not,
But I guess it served its purpose. And there's a
long history behind Westinghouse Electric in manufacturing company and their factories.
(07:25):
They had many, many series of posters like this designed
to motivate and energize their workers. They weren't drawing people
into the workplace, they were trying to motivate those who
were already there. And furthermore, even if this Rosie was
trying to communicate a public message, it wouldn't have been
public beyond the walls of Westinghouse because it's intended for
(07:46):
private use only. So you can make the case that
this isn't this isn't for recruitment at all. This this
we can do it, Rosie, This was um. Uh what
I read was it was it um Rosie the polka
dotta Rosie could actually be away to um discourage sort
of labor labor movements inside of these Westinghouse factories that
they were sort of because communism was it was beginning
(08:08):
to be a problem. And uh so um the company
would would commission these these posters not to say, hey, women,
you should take up your man's work, but but instead
be like, do your job. And I think there were
actually three specific goals that Westinghouse had in mind behind
this pocad dot at Rosie and other posters and series
similar to that, and that was too increase production, decrease absenteeism,
(08:30):
and to keep strikes at bay. No one wanted that
rising in the factories. And when we look at this Rosie,
you know, like we sort of picked apart rockwells Rosie.
The different symbols there. There weren't many symbols when it
comes to PoCA dot at roseye to J. Howard Miller Rosie.
But you can see she is a Westinghouse employee. She
has the name tag on in the body of corner
it says Westinghouse. And I think a lot of reproductions today.
(08:53):
Jay Howard Miller's name has been cropped out, but clearly
this was produced on behalf of Westinghouse. And she is very,
very feminine, even more so compared to the Rockwell Rosie.
You can clearly see in her hand that she's wearing
a touch of neal polos. You can see the eyeliner,
you can see her momscara, you can see the little
(09:13):
curls of her hair underneath her head scarf. She's much
more attractive than the Rockwell Rosie in a lot of ways.
She is, and if you look at other posters that J.
Howard Miller designed, you can see that that's not uncommon.
She's actually the most rough and tumble of all the
women featured on Miller's posters. We see, you know, a
lot of the World War two sentiment or women are like,
(09:33):
you know, crying and maybe a caption was, you know,
um wanting won't bring him home any stereotypical with the
stereotypical woman who's wasting away at home waiting for a
man to come back. The idea of being go ahead
and get into the factory. We know that's not the
case with Miller's Rosie, but we know, through and through
she is a Westinghouse girl. And it's so funny because
(09:54):
if you look at some of the photographs of other
Westinghouse employees, or you read about Westinghouse history, you know
that that upward thrust of the fest is characteristic of
that company because they used to use it at meetings
or rallies to motivate the workers. So while today we
had a very feminist spent on what Rosie is saying,
(10:16):
we can do with that upward thrust of the fest
that would have been typical of men and women in
Westinghouse factories during World War Two. And it's it's interesting
also how this sort of flipped around, how like in
during World War Two, this Rockwell Rosie was the more
popular one, and how how this one came to be
if it was only seen by you know, so many
people working in those factories in those few months, um,
(10:39):
those few weeks. Uh. And it's interesting because it all
comes down to the fact that Rockwell's painting is actually copyrighted.
It's a copyrighted image and so you know, um, you
have to pay money to use it and or it's
like a protected but um Miller's uh drawing actually didn't
have any such protection, and so people could use it
for whatever they want, and it fit into the the
(11:03):
feminist um uh theory so well that it became so
popular and actually um succeed like it's a superseded Rockwell's painting.
I guess yeah. I think that today the National Archives
say it's one of the top ten most requested images.
And I think that as far as phonists go and
(11:23):
the idea of correcting the misconceptions we have behind Rosie,
this is a perfect demonstration, like we said, because she
was representative of of the men and women in Westinghouse factories.
That speaks volumes because other women who went to work
not just as riveters, but in other fields of the
manufacturing industry or even as postal workers. When the men
came back from war, they were asked to leave their jobs.
(11:46):
You know, this wasn't the huge floodgate opening of women
shuffling into the workplace that we would like to think
and hope that it was. I think, like, you did
your job and now you know, go home. Yeah, we
appreciate it, thanks a lot. We're done here. And I
think to an extent it did open a floodgat of
source because women saw that they were capable, that you know,
they could do men's work. It wasn't as hard as
(12:08):
they had imagined. They could still be feminine and still
be women while they did it. But there was also
a very early type of glass ceiling that we see too,
because even though they were doing the same work that
men had done before the war, they weren't getting paid
as much. And there weren't as many women coming into
the workplace from homes and the private sector as there
(12:29):
were women who were already in the workplace, or minority women,
un married women who were just getting into these manufacturing
positions to get higher wages. That's what I was surprised at.
You know, you we we buy into this myth that um,
all of a sudden, mothers started to start working at
factories where like the fathers were in the family were
and and that wasn't really the case. It was women
who were not married housewives. They were just looking for,
(12:52):
you know, a job to feed themselves, right, And that's
an important detail to know. If you look at Rockwell's
Rosie and Miller's Rosie and nine, there is wearing a
wedding ring at any swords and uh one thing that
also a slide thing about Rockwell's Rosie is that she's
actually wearing loafers as opposed to what men of the
time would be wearing, which would steel toed boots for
(13:13):
a riveter, like you're doing this heavy work and you
should have protected feet. And they actually didn't make uh
these steel toed um women's shoes at the time until
a little bit later, like towards the end of the war.
And um, so it was actually very accurate and Rockwell
to incorporate those brown loafers into Rosy. Yeah, they got
all the details right. And it seems so ironic today
(13:34):
that you can get this famous miller. We can do
an image on everything from ovenmits, aprons to coffee cups.
I mean things we may associate with a housewife, you know,
an apron and an oven met, but it's an image
that people are very fond of, you know, almost as
fond as I am of you know, a little little
snuggle bear. So um. Now, hopefully you know the real
(13:56):
story of Rosie Riter and you won't make a mistake
that many many people do about her. And if you
want to learn even more about Rosie in World War
two history and just women in general. Be sure to
visit how stuff works dot com. For more on this
and thousands of other topics. Visit how stuff works dot com.
Let us know what you think. Send an email to
(14:18):
podcast at how stuff works dot com
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