January 8, 2022 • 38 mins
Carl Sagan was the world's first mainstream media super scientist, capapble of breaking down complex ideas for the common folk. But what made him tick? Billions and billions of great ideas. Explore his life and legacy with Josh and Chuck in this classic episode.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everyone. Here on December our Time Capsule episode a
k A. Weekend Saturday Selects, We're going to take you
back and talk about an American hero by the name
of Carl Sagan. In the appropriately titled podcast episode Carl
Sagan colin American Hero. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know,
(00:24):
a production of I Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to
the podcast. I'm Josh Clark with Charles W. Chuck Bryant,
and Noel. The stint of Noel is winding down. Sadly.
It's such an awkward thing having nol here know the
stint of Knell? Right, yeah, oh, you mean the wording? Yeah, fine,
(00:50):
all right, how you doing? I'm fine, just like that
wording I'm sleepy. Why about I've just been staying up
late writing until one and two in the morning, like
a dope, like a seventeen Oh yeah, yeah, a manifesto. No, No,
just staying up too late typing. That's neat. Do you
(01:11):
drink wine while you type? Last night? It was bullet bourbon? Yeah,
And then you're just like, I'm not typing words correctly anymore.
And then it's time for bed. You get on a
roll and then you look up and it's to two am.
Nice man, I'm glad to hear that six thirty rolls
around and here we are. That's awesome. Yeah, that's great.
So you're creative juices are flowing. They're flowing. Baby. Do
you know who else is juices were flowing and still
(01:34):
flow through this universe? Carl Sagan, he was. He was
a creative science type. Yeah, and it made him kind
of controversial, man. It also made him beloved, beloved, and uh,
I think one of like the precursors to what we
do you know? In fact, he there's a quote on
(01:55):
him being an explainer, which I thought was very cool,
which is the geekiest remember, but it's a pretty it's
a good term. Yeah, he said. I think I'm able
to explain things because understanding wasn't entirely easy for me.
Some things that the most brilliant students were able to
see instantly, I had to work to understand. I can
remember what I had to do to figure it out.
(02:16):
The very brilliant ones figure it out so fast that
sounds familiar. They never see the mechanics of understanding. So
I really identified with that, and like, man, that's kind
of what we do, you know? We worked really hard
to understanding this because we're not experts, and he wasn't
an expert on one thing. He covered a lot of
That's what made him unique, a lot of different facets
of science. Yeah, which you don't see much. No you don't.
(02:40):
I mean it does pop up here and there. But
if you if you think about the people who are
like that, like Jared Diamond is a really good current
example Neil type. No, that's Dustin Diamond, Okay, Jared Diamond.
Uh man. I don't even remember what he's trained in.
He's just such a generalist. But he wrote like guns,
(03:01):
germs and steel. Um, he's got a little a little
Robert bork Beard, good guy. Um, he's one. Neil deGrasse
Tyson has definitely become one, although he's still very much
an astrophysician, right, yeah, but he's he's sort of talked
about a lot of times in terms of being like Sagan,
and not just because he rebooted Cosmos, which was Sagan's show,
(03:25):
but um, oh yeah, he's just the face of science,
like he's the go to guy. Sure. I mean, like
he was the obvious choice for Cosmos because he was
already so much like Sagan following in those footsteps for sure.
Those other guys like Brian Green as a science explainer,
Bill Nye as a science explainer, Um, they're definitely out
there for sure. But you can you make a good
(03:45):
point that Sagan was one of the originals, if not
the original, but the idea that he was somebody who
was willing to draw parallels from different disciplines in science
or bring him together to create, um, something approachable for people,
to kind of invigorate people's love of science. I think
(04:05):
it's amazing. Yeah, it made him beloved. It also just
made him not reviled. This is not the right word,
but he was definitely criticized in the scientific establishment. Uh
in parts for sure. Some people in the scientific establishment
loved him, and some were like, uh, you're not doing
much real research, you know, you're just sort of a
(04:28):
face guy. And um, I poo poo that entirely and
say that he did a lot for science and people
like him are are necessary, and uh, I value their work. Okay,
you're taking a stand. Huh. Yeah, man, Carl Sagan is amazing.
He's one of my heroes. Yeah, he's like I watched
Cosmos when I was ten years old. I've never seen it. Man,
(04:50):
it was great. I mean it was a PBS show
that had tens of millions of viewers. I know, millions
and millions. Yeah, so that's your saken. Yeah. And you
know what he he told Johnny Carson, he never said
billions and billions. Uh, he said billions upon billions, right,
(05:10):
I never heard it. There's a super cut on YouTube
of all of his billions, millions and trillions from Dots
Moats cut to uh with it like hip hop music
bed and um, is that a glorious down? I don't
remember the name of it. There's one. There's a video
a song that somebody created with him, a super cut
(05:31):
of him. It's called Glorious Toll. That's pretty great. Well,
I never heard billions and billions in there. There's a
lot of billions and millions and trillions. He loved those words,
but um, he said, I never specifically said to billions
and billions, and I couldn't. I didn't hear it either,
So he's a misunderstood genius. Yeah. Became I think Carson
did at first, or maybe it was Saturday out Live,
(05:53):
and then that just became the thing. Billions and billions
because he is a weird little dude for sure, and
a lot of what's easily parody, but he also seemed
to have a really good sense of humor about himself
at least and in general. He smoked grass. He thought
grass was far out. Man. We just vaulted back in
(06:14):
time with that one. Yeah, he smoked the marijuana grass
making a contemporary. He was on the pot, Yeah, he did.
He liked to smoke weed and um. In fact, I
have a quote here from he wrote an essay. The
quote reads, and woe. Best Pavement album by the way.
He wrote an essay. I don't know about that. Oh yeah,
(06:35):
what's your favorite? Um, I've played it in enchanted. Yeah,
the first one. It's hard, although Crooked Ray and Crooked
Rain was pretty good. No, I've never seen him more
interested in what we're talking about. It's funny. In college,
we used to have a saying, it's not a matter
of which album are we gonna listen to next? It's
which Pavement album are we gonna listen to next? Just
put down T shirt? Yeah. So anyway, Sagan wrote an
(06:58):
essay and Marijuana reconsidered, um, and here is one of
his quotes. He said, the cannabis experienced has greatly improved
my appreciation for art, subject which I had never much
appreciated before. The understanding of the intent of the artist,
which I can achieve when high, sometimes carries over to
when I'm down. This is one of many human frontiers
(07:21):
which cannabis has helped me traverse. Was that Kermit the
Frog doing Carl Sagan Let's sort of kermity but he
uh yeah, I mean that's not it doesn't define him
or anything, but yeah, he liked to smoke the pot
and he liked to get out his little tape recorder
and talk about stuff. But on the turnal neck, yeah,
with nothing else. It was the sixties and seventies, of
course he was, and I think the eighties and maybe
(07:44):
even into the nineties, that's true. So um, let's let's
I guess, let's go back to the beginning. We've done
some pretty good teasing here, right, And when you're talking
about a human being, there's no place better to start
at the beginning than with their earth Brooklyn, New York.
(08:04):
His mother was Rachel, was a garment industry manager and
apparently oh yeah, yeah, but his mom was overbearing. Yes,
mom was overbearing. Sorry, dad was a Ukrainian immigrant Samuel
who worked as a garment industry manager. Because in ninety
four they prebad and hire women to do chops like that,
which is really stinky. So uh and we it's not
(08:27):
like we've met the lady or anything and can report
that she's overbearing. The idea that she's overbearing comes from
this long standing image of her of she had very
high hopes and high expectations and aspirations for Carl very
well may have made the man. Yeah, you know, moved
to New Jersey after a little while and was voted
(08:47):
the class brain at Rahway High School. And I thought
this is interesting in this what article is this the
New Yorker, which one while why Carl Sagan's truly replaceable
Smiths and Enjoel Achenbach. Uh. It was a great article though,
But they tracked down in nineteen fifty three a questionnaire
(09:07):
from high school that he had to fill out on
his own character traits, and Sagan said he gave himself
low marks for vigorousness like with sports, an average rating
for emotional stability, and the highest ratings for being dominant
and reflective. I'm gonna start using that vigorousness. Yeah, and
I worked out this morning. I'm so vigorous. Um. So
(09:30):
that's not just a piece of paper they dug up, chuck.
That's from his archives, which were actually sold to the
Library of Congress by his widow. Um what is his
widow's name, Anne andrew In one of his uh well,
his his widow, but he was married three times, um
and uh ann sold the papers. Are supplied the papers
(09:52):
for an honorarium, I guess, to the Library of Congress.
And the Library of Congress got that money from Seth
McFarlane had basically Seth McFarland bought Carl Sagan's papers and
donated them to the Library of Congress. Yes, that's why
it's pretty cool. That's why it's called the Seth McFarland
Collection of the Carl Sagan and and Drury and Archive.
(10:13):
I had to put his name on there. Well, I mean, sure,
why not? You know, no, it's fine. He's he's he's
a huge fan of his work, and he's the one
who rebooted Cosmos right and genuinely, like I mean, I
gotta say, like whatever you have to say about Seth McFarland.
And there's plenty to say about Seth McFarland. He is
he proved himself a true fan of Carl Sagan and
(10:34):
a rich guy to fan. I've always liked a family guy,
so I don't have anything bad to say about him. Uh,
what have you seen American dad? No, I never got
into that. Actually, OK, yeah, it's not family guy. It's
definitely just totally different. Gotch uh seven hundred and ninety
eight boxes of stuff of archival material. Um. The guy
(10:55):
love to log every conversation he ever had, and he
thought that ever entered his brain mainly through the cassette tape.
But um, I guess that was transcribed by other folks. Yeah,
apparently that's um. Joel achenbach Um says that his his
writing style was so conversational because he didn't write, He
dictated into a dictaphone and then it was transcribed. Basically, basically,
(11:19):
it was like the Hunter S. Thompson of science. Yeah.
Remember Hunter t had like the real real he'd wear
around his neck when one is high on marijuana. It
is a buzz kill to type. Actually, that's funny. We
bring up Hunter Thompson. Hunter Thompson loved acid. You know
who else loved acid? Timothy Leary. You know who hung
out with Timothy Leary, Carl Sagan. Timothy Leary was trying
(11:40):
to get Sagan to advise him on how to build
a an interstellar arc because Leary just totally lost his
stuff by this time. Right, we should do a show
on him. Oh yeah, I'm surprised. We haven't to be crazy. Um,
let's do it, man, Yeah, we should. We should do
one on like the Mary pranks. There's a whole thing
just basically redo the electric kool Aid asset test totally.
(12:01):
It would be a good episode. But Leary um at
a mental institution because he'd been popped with a bunch
of acid I think, had a visitor in Carl Sagan
and Frank Drake of the famous Drake equation, and they
came by to say hi, and and Leary was like, seriously,
you guys have to help me design this. And they
were like this, the closest star is too far away.
You're kuk, this isn't gonna work. And Learry said he
(12:24):
since that they had some sort of neural blockage. That's
why they couldn't think like he could. Man. So that
was Carl Sagan Timothy Larry story but I think they
stayed in touch. Oh, I'm sure they did so. Uh,
young Sagan is his life kind of changes when he
goes to the World's Fair in nineteen thirty nine. He
(12:45):
was just five years old. You remember whose World's Fair
that was? Was that? No? Was it Chicago? Eddie bernays, Oh, yeah,
that was the one. Wow, the one that changed everything,
including Carl Sagan. Boy, that's a big one. Um. So
Sagan goes to the World Fair and it was sort
of a a great time, um, to be a young
kid interested in science, because in the late thirties and
(13:08):
forties and fifties, it was like everyone was captivated by
the future. Right, there's this idea that science could do anything, Yeah,
anything and very soon would. It was really exciting and um,
it was just a great time to be to be
into it. It's the uh what's his name Openheimer? No, Oppenheimer.
(13:29):
Now I'm talking about the article back like, yeah Oppenheimer,
this guy. Yeah, I'm the I'm become death. That's what
I thought you were talking about. Uh. In the article,
he makes a great point about, um, just that that
time period and um, how exploratory everything was really from then,
(13:50):
like through the nineteen seventies. That was a great, like
forty year period in science where basically that was funding
and like anything is possible, we can do anything we want,
until they started to you know, I guess disprove things
here and there, right. And actually what's interesting is there's
a corresponding boost in technology from that era too, And
a lot of people point out that all of this
(14:12):
stuff from about nineteen seventy five on is actually built
on the backs of the stuff that was built in
the forty years before that, from about nineteen thirty five
to nineteen seventy five and ever since then, we've had
a technological plateau. It's really interesting, and you don't think
about You're like, well, no, I mean we have iPhones now.
It's like, yeah, iPhones are all they're a combination of
different stuff that was first discovered or invented forty or
(14:35):
more years ago. Um, And basically everything's like that. We
were in a slump right now. So it was not
only a time where they thought science could do anything.
Science was doing just about anything. And we've since hit
a plateau and um, he the author described him. I
thought it was a great description. Sagan as a nuanced
referee Because really cool thing about Sagan was he was
(14:59):
very grounded and science and proof and facts. But he
wasn't um. He wasn't just a square and a skeptic,
although he was a skeptic, yeah, but he was also
like he wanted to to find life on other planets.
And he didn't shut things down. He was all about
the discussion of everything as long as you still did
(15:21):
the research. And we're grounded in facts as a matter
of fact. And he did not believe in UFOs. He
did not think that UFOs were extraterrestrial spacecraft. But in
nineteen sixty nine he mounted a conference on UFOs in
which everyone apparently had their say all sides. Yeah, it
wasn't like we're mounting a conference on UFOs. You can
(15:42):
come so the rest of us can poo poo your
ideas and beliefs. It was come and share your your
position on it. That's enormous, and that in and of
itself is worth remembering the person for. But this is
nineteen sixty nine, before you'd even become like a household
name or anything like it. Yeah, and I like to
think we do that and we still get emails. So
(16:02):
we got one today for people that said it's it's
dangerous to even mention other schools of thought. That's dogmatic. Yeah,
And I just I don't agree with dogmatic and close
minded and don't even bring don't even email us with
that crap. Yeah, I just don't don't even bother because
we're gonna we're gonna make fun of you on the air. Yeah,
because that's not what our shows about. Even if we
(16:24):
don't believe something, we like to throw all sides out
there because I think, uh, discussion is healthy no matter what.
That's just me. Even when we were mocking crop circles,
we still like talked about crop circles, did we not.
It's not like we just pretended like there wasn't such
a thing as crop circles. That's right, And we have
Carl Sagan, thank for laying that golden path in front
(16:44):
of us. So you want to take a break, I
don't want to, but we have we need to, Okay,
all right, we'll be right back. Alright. So we've been
(17:14):
beating around the bush here. Um, let's talk well not really,
we've been getting into it, but let's let's talk about
some of the things that Sagan uh he wasn't just
some Johnny come lately. He had uh, degree upon degree.
I think he had billions and billions. We had undergrad degree,
he had his masters, he had his PhD. He was
(17:35):
he was well versed in a lot of realms of science,
but his big thing was astronomy. Right. He had two
degrees in undergrad and masters in physics and then a
doctorate in astronomy um. And he did a little stint
at Harvard. I didn't get tenure. So he's like, I'm
out of here. And Cornell is like, you come to
us and we will treat you like a god. And
(17:56):
they did. And he settled in at Cornell and set
up his own lab, right, the Laboratory for Planetary for
Planetary Studies. Uh, and he just that was when he
really started to get going. He was doing side work
for NASA at the time as well, doing consulting. He
did that throughout his whole career, formulas, that kind of stuff. Sure,
when NASA is picking your brain about like the Apollo mission,
(18:20):
you're you're doing pretty well for yourself as a scientist.
But so he had this this this potential to to
really go as sciency as he wanted to with this stuff,
and he did in some ways in a lot of
ways with his consulting with NASA, but he also kind
of pushed NASA into humanities um direction as well, like
(18:42):
the the Voyager discs, that's a that's a really great
example of it. Like he talked NASA into including discs
on Voyager one and two, the Golden Record, Yeah, that
are They're basically like, here's some stuff that represents humanity
and Earth. Yeah, pretty much like if we ever do
mind life on Earth, we need to have something to
offer them to represent us. Yeah, yeah, what I say,
(19:06):
life on Earth? Yeah, yeah, there's life on Earth. It's
pretty much documented as fact, life out there, extraterrestrial life.
He said, we needed to present ourselves and what Earth
is like and what humans are like. So he included
a hundred and fifteen images representing the diversity of life
and then uh sounds basically like his wife literally, this
(19:26):
is pretty out there. I don't know if marijuana had
anything to do with it. I think so. Yeah, his wife,
and she created her own sounds for the project. Basically,
she meditated and then thought told the story of the
universe by thinking it with her brain, and then those
brain waves were translated into music, and she said, my
(19:48):
mind also wandered to my love of my husband, so
that was translated. So they blasted. That was her message
that they blasted out to space, which is pretty far
out right, but but awesome messages of love. Yure, man,
it's pretty neat. He wasn't afraid to show his tender side. No, no, no,
he definitely wasn't. He was vulnerable in a lot of woics. Um.
(20:10):
And also on those discs, there's I believe etchings of
a man and a woman. I think it's etched on
the disc and they're like laser disc size. They're super
retro and made of gold, which is pretty cool. Um.
And then there's a basically a depiction of where Earth
is in the Milky Way, I believe, so it's basically
saying we're here if you ever find this. And then
(20:30):
of course Voyager one, I believe, got lost and awakened
and became sentient and then became a god on to
some beings. Remember, and I think Star Trek one, the
first the first movie. I never saw this veture. You
never saw any of the Star Trek movies, dude, I've
never seen one episode of the TV show. I've never
(20:53):
seen one episode of the Next Generation. The only Star
Trek thing I've ever ingested was Our Apologies to a Wheaten.
By the way, was that first movie that J. J.
Abrams did. I saw that. I saw the second one
of that. I also saw I think Star Trek maybe one, two,
and three. And in one of those there's this god
(21:15):
vjer who's like this artificial intelligence, and they finally meet
Vijor and realized that the oi uh is blotted out
and it's really Voyager one, the Space Probe. Wow. Yeah,
that's pretty cool. I thought it was pretty neat too.
I'm not a tricky by any means, but yeah, they
were still entertaining. I just never got into it. I
(21:36):
was always a Star Wars guy, not that they're mutually exclusive,
but I don't know, it just didn't grab me. You know,
who would have predicted that we go off on a
Star Trek Tangent and the Carl. Although I think I've
told the story of working on a commercial with William Chatterer,
you have, didn't he like bend you over a car
and pretend to arrestue That was punch, Hey shot, it
(21:57):
was t J. Hooker. Could have happened. Yeah, he was
though he was awesome. He'd loved being William Shatner. Oh yeah, man,
you can tell like guy wears it like a suit.
Yeah he was. He was awesome, very nice guy. So, um,
we're getting off track again here, Sagan with science. There
was actual science to stuff. As a matter of fact,
the idea of the greenhouse effect is rooted partially in
(22:19):
his work. Yeah, I mean that that had been around
since the late nineteenth century. But um, he looked at
like a planet like Venus and said, you know what,
Venus is really hot, and I think wise because this
greenhouse effect. And um, then because of that work, people
started thinking, well, maybe Earth has a greenhouse effect. Going
(22:41):
on to right really opened the door for that line
of thought. It did, and he's correct. Earth definitely does
have a greenhouse effect and it's problematic. Correct. Another one
that he's widely cited for is the Fate Young Young
Son paradox. Um. I don't know if the if he
was the one who first pointed this out, or if
(23:04):
he just kind of built upon it and it's still
not fully solved. I think so he and George Mullen
figured this out. I'm pretty sure Yeah. So the idea
is that Earth early on its history was a ball
of ice. But problematically, there was also some liquid water
on Earth too, It wasn't all ice. This doesn't make
much sense because the Sun as it stands now is
(23:27):
just about enough to keep Earth from from being a
frozen ball of ice. But back then, when Earth was
mostly a frozen ball of ice, the Sun was only
at like s of its luminosity or lumosity, luminosity one
of those luminosity right, yeah, sure, um that it is today,
and so it doesn't make sense that there should be
(23:48):
any liquid water on Earth. And it's called the faint
Young Sun paradox. And um, I believe they figured out
or they Sagan and Mullin said, well, it's the greenhouse effect. Yeah,
and I don't think they ever fully settled on that. Um. Still,
it's it's outstanding. Yeah. They think it might be a
combination of that and some other stuff. That's right. Uh,
what else did you do? He looked at um Titan,
(24:08):
Saturn's moon at one point and said, you know what,
I think there's organic molecules up there and that's why
it looks red. And he was right. Yeah. He went
to h Yeah. So, I mean he he wasn't afraid
to throw a wacky hypothesis out there, and that did
not do him any favors in the scientific community either. No,
(24:28):
because there is a definite um arrogance associated with throwing
out the hypothesis and not doing the work, leaving it
to other people to do the work, and then you
still get the credit for throwing the hypothesis out there. Um.
It's it's one of the it's one of the main
reasons why Sagan was highly criticized by some people in
(24:50):
the scientific community. Yeah, there's um in the Smithsonian article. Um,
they say there's sort of an unwritten rule among scientists. Uh,
they'll shout that speculate, that'll shout talk about things outside
your immediate area of expertise. It's a big one that
he transgressed. Yeah. He was all over the place, uh
and now shouting that horse around on late night TV
talk shows. Yeah with Carson. Yeah, he was on Carson
(25:12):
two dozen times over a couple of decades and was,
like I said, sort of the Neil de grasse Tyson.
He was the go to when anyone in the press
needed anything for television. He was the guy and anything
that had anything even remotely to do with science, even
if I had to do with theology, and somebody wanted
a sciences opinion of theology, go to Carl Sagan. Yeah,
(25:35):
And so from Sagan's at his point of view, he's
just furthering science. What's the problem From this other scientists
point of view, It's like it makes it look like
Carl Sagan is trained in everything from astrophysics, which he was,
to theology and biology and anthropology and every ology in between,
(25:56):
and he wasn't. True. There's some professional jealousy too, you know.
I think, um, you know how it is like he's
getting all the press, and uh, other folks are stuck
in a lab doing what they think is the real work.
So I kind of get it in a way. But
I just think that people like Bill Nye and Tyson
and and Sagan are hugely necessary. You know, you gotta
(26:18):
have a face out there furthering it. You definitely need,
you know, yea, and you gotta have a media outlet
like Parade magazine to put that face one that was
his go to for sure? Was he in there a lot?
Oh yeah, it was. That's the Sunday insert right, Yeah,
and that was like kind of the big joke because
that he stopped publishing in academic journals and started publishing
(26:40):
and Parade Magazine. And if you remember in our Nuclear
Winter episode, yeah he was. Did he completely in uh
think of that? No, he just furthered it. He was
part of a group that that was organized that basically said, like,
if you guys start setting off nuclear bombs, it's not
going to be this thing that just it's like, there's
(27:01):
going to be this thing called Nuclear Winner. And they
hadn't done all the science yet before he went and
wrote an article in Parade Magazine and told the world
about Nuclear Winner, and in the opinion of the science
that's he was working with, like really undermine their case
because it's sensationalized it. Yeah, but what it also did
was it got your your average Joe thinking about nuclear
(27:22):
war in the Cold War and maybe we shouldn't be
zooming toward our own demise right at a hundred miles.
And that's the big back and forth about Sagan's legacy, Yeah,
or the the actual work he did too. Yeah, and
you mentioned that theology. He was famously um spiritual agnostic.
He was a spiritual agnostic, is how he defined himself. Yeah,
(27:44):
he didn't classify until as atheist. No, and the reason why,
true to Sagan's own um own way, was that he
could not scientifically prove that there was not God. So
he said, how can I call myself an atheist? Which
is um, it's pretty cool. And actually he's the guy
supposedly that coined the term extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
(28:06):
That's what I here? Does that go back to him?
So he's like, skeptics love the dude. Oh yeah, he's
the father of the skeptic. But I think he I
don't know. I think he gives skeptics the good name. Sure,
but if you want to prove your bones to how
hardcore skeptic you are, criticize Carl Sagan in the skeptic community,
(28:30):
you can really show that you're a super skeptic. Yeah.
Sagan was a milk toast as far as skeptics go. Yeah,
because he would indulge other lines of thought, um, but
still require proof. But he wouldn't just shut it down
right out of the gate. So we will get back
to Carl Sagan right after these messages. All right, chuckers,
(29:12):
we're back. So, um, there was one thing that Carl
saying he would poke funded himself. He never abandoned. It
was this idea that possibly, maybe, just maybe, um, there
was intelligent life out there, and um, he wanted there
to be for sure, you know. Uh, he helped disprove
(29:33):
or set the conditions against life being out there for sure.
Like for example, um, he suggested that on Mars, the
shifting features of Mars were a result of dust storms,
and it turned out he was right, But those dust
storms also basically said there's probably not life on Mars
just from that reason alone, those horrible dust storms, right yeah,
(29:54):
and he um, actually he want to pull a surprise
for some of his work. I think he wrote more
than dozen books. But one of the things he wrote
was Contact, the novel not uh you know, he was
totally into sci fi and wrote you know, the movie
uh Contact McConaughey and Jodie Foster that was based on
(30:14):
his novel. And of course that movie was about sending
signals into outer space trying to find life. So you
could tell the guy it was something he loved to
talk about and write about. Oh yeah, but he also
loved it like actually that that kind of research, which
is totally up his Alley like st um, the search
for extraterrestrial intelligence is is evidence based in science based
(30:38):
search for extraterrestrials? Right, Yes, that was that's Carl Sagan
through and through. That's just totally him. He was, um,
he wanted to believe in extraterrestrial life, but he needed
proof to believe in it. Really. Yeah, he just couldn't
make that jump to just saying yes, they they exist
without any proof. Yeah, exactly. So he's writing books, he
(31:00):
NASA is picking his brain, he's all over the place
and he eventually We've talked about his TV show debuted
on UM well, actually the debuted nineteen eighty one. Yeah,
I thought eight. Yeah, yeah, I think it was, um
so I must have been nine years old. I was four.
I thought it was ten. What month was it, I
(31:23):
don't know. I don't even um. But he originally it
was the TV series is going to be called Man
and the Cosmos. But he thought that was sexist and
he was a feminist, so he said, um, he proposed
a couple of more titles. One was called There Terrible
t H E R E uh with some subtitle, and
then the other was Cosmos along with a subtitle. Um,
(31:47):
and he spent like three years around the world filming
this thing, right, Yeah, and it just it was a
what it's not like it ran for seasons and seasons.
It was like a a single run of shows on
PBS that televis an event. Yeah, it was a TV
event exactly. One of the other things that he did,
which I never knew, was he wrote along with his son.
(32:08):
Now because his son uh has a byeline, I guess
Jimmy Sagan Todd Sagan his five kids I think total,
but one of his sons became a sci fi writer,
another one became more of a science writer. So basically
he split into two. Yeah. Actually I never thought about
that way. Um, I just explained two of his kids existence.
(32:32):
He wrote the entry for Life for Encyclopedia Britannica, like
this is what life is. Yeah. He was fairly energetic dude,
for sure. Yeah, to say the least. I mean he
did Cosmos in his mid forties, just out of nowhere,
a lot accomplished for a pot head, he really did,
you know, He's like the Cypress Hill of of science.
(32:52):
I don't know, hey, man, they put out like three
albums in like four or five years. Yeah, it's a
lot of work and then retired. Yeah, secand did not retire, No,
he did not, sir. He worked up until his death
in n Yeah. He dies after battling UM, a bone
marrow disease for about a year or so to two years,
(33:14):
I think is closer. Um, he's diagnosed with it and
he needed a transplant, and his sister uh stepped up
and volunteered to give him a donation and did and
uh apparently it wasn't quite enough because he died of
an infection after about a year and a half after
um the transplant. Just sixty four years old. Yeah, too, way,
(33:35):
way too young, it really is. And in fact, yesterday,
the day we're recording this is November ten. I believe
yesterday was would have been his eighty first birthday. Oh yeah,
you didn't plan that, nope. Wow, that's a pretty impressive
speaking to me from billions of light years away. Yeah,
that's funny that you say that. Because somebody wrote to him, Um,
(33:56):
they said, how do you know that there's not a heaven?
And um, he had this really great response. He remember
in his archives, he was a pack rat, so he
kept a lot of correspondence and from it they found Um.
In this achembach Um article, there's a a citation of
a letter that he wrote to somebody, and UM, he says,
thanks for your letter, nothing like the Christian notion of
(34:18):
heaven has been found out to about ten billion light years,
and then in parentheses he puts one light year is
almost six trillion miles. Best wishes. And the point is
like he took the time to write the letter back
to this guy, like he would engage rather than just
ignore the letter entirely. So he entertained and indulged people's
(34:39):
ideas enough that he would engage with somebody he didn't
even know about whether there's heaven or not. And this
this was sent um the year he died. Actually, so
he's writing this from his sick bed. Wow, that's awesome. Uh.
As far as whether or not it bothered him, whether
or not he was how he was thought of in
the scientific community, UM, it kind of all came to
(35:01):
a head in Uh, he was on a list to
be included um as a nominee for the National Academy
of Sciences. Uh. In the end he was not included,
and it bothered him. Um. He kind of brushed it
off to two people in public saying that, you know,
I didn't think I would get in any way, but
(35:23):
his widow said, uh, quote, it was painful. It seemed
like a unsolicited slight end quote. And they ended up
giving him an honorary medal, which was nice, but that
was definitely a big sting for him. Yeah. The National
Academy of Sciences said, nope, you're not a member. Yeah,
you're not one of us. They basically said that the
(35:43):
the actual research that you did wasn't strong enough, which, uh,
it stinks. It sounds like a definite calculated slight Yeah. Yeah, yeah,
he's included in my book. Yeah for sure. Man. Uh
so my hat is off to you, sir forever. Do
you got anything else? No, man, I just uh that
someone needs to make a great documentary or movie about
(36:05):
the guy. Yeah, you know, starring Ashton Kutcher is Carl Sagan.
That guy can play anybody. Yeah. Uh. If you want
to know more about Carl Sagan, you can start with
this delightful little article on how stuff works by typing
Carl Sagan in the search bar. And since I said
search bar, its time for listener mail. Hey guys, my
(36:26):
name is Connie. I've been a listener for a couple
of months after my brother turned me onto the show.
Since then, I've been completely obsessed and haven't been able
to stop listening. UM on track to become a nurse,
so I can can't get enough of anything science or
biology related. I want to thank you for a couple
of things. UM in a base level anatomy class right
now and the rigor Mortist podcast saved my behind and
(36:47):
my grade on my cadaver dissection and muscle's desk. A
lot of the things you covered, like the nature of
the muscle's relationship with a TP and the integral proteins
really helped me pass my exam and not pass out
in the cadaver lab. You also even taught my anatomy
professor something new about keila cells. How about that last
year I was diagnosed with anxiety and depression due to
(37:08):
the fact that I could never really fit in the
right way. I lost almost all of my friends when
I made an early jump from high school to college,
and being able to count on YouTube weekly has really
helped a little bit with the loneliness and learning something
new is always a healthy distraction from anxiety. So you guys,
really give me something new and exciting to discuss and
learned about twice a week when you work forty hours,
(37:30):
it really goes a long way. Uh. It would absolutely
make his ear if you could give a shout out
to my brother, Matt the physics teacher. That is very nice. Yeah,
he's the reason I started listening to you and sharing.
The love of knowledge is really something that has kept
us close in spite of our eleven year age difference.
It sparked so many interesting and inspired conversations between us.
So thank you for what you're doing and helping many
(37:51):
of us make it through tough spots. That is much
love from Connie from Illinois. So thank you, Connie, and
hello to Matt your brother. Hey, Matt the physics teacher. Yeah,
thanks guys. It's we love families that listen and bringing
people together. Man, it's makes us feel good. Yeah. The
family that listens to s Y s K together stays together.
That's right. It's a dire warning. Uh. If you want
(38:14):
to let us know how great somebody in your life
is because they introduced you to the stuff, you should
know we love hearing that stuff. You can tweet to
us at s Y s K podcast. You can join
us on Facebook dot com slash stuff you Should Know.
You can send us an email to Stuff podcast at
how stuff Works dot com and has always joined us
at our home on the web. Stuff you Should Know
dot Com. Stuff you Should Know is a production of
(38:37):
I Heart Radio. For more podcasts my Heart Radio, visit
the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.
Hi everyone. Here on December our Time Capsule episode a
k A. Weekend Saturday Selects, We're going to take you
back and talk about an American hero by the name
of Carl Sagan. In the appropriately titled podcast episode Carl
Sagan colin American Hero. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know,
(00:24):
a production of I Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to
the podcast. I'm Josh Clark with Charles W. Chuck Bryant,
and Noel. The stint of Noel is winding down. Sadly.
It's such an awkward thing having nol here know the
stint of Knell? Right, yeah, oh, you mean the wording? Yeah, fine,
(00:50):
all right, how you doing? I'm fine, just like that
wording I'm sleepy. Why about I've just been staying up
late writing until one and two in the morning, like
a dope, like a seventeen Oh yeah, yeah, a manifesto. No, No,
just staying up too late typing. That's neat. Do you
(01:11):
drink wine while you type? Last night? It was bullet bourbon? Yeah,
And then you're just like, I'm not typing words correctly anymore.
And then it's time for bed. You get on a
roll and then you look up and it's to two am.
Nice man, I'm glad to hear that six thirty rolls
around and here we are. That's awesome. Yeah, that's great.
So you're creative juices are flowing. They're flowing. Baby. Do
you know who else is juices were flowing and still
(01:34):
flow through this universe? Carl Sagan, he was. He was
a creative science type. Yeah, and it made him kind
of controversial, man. It also made him beloved, beloved, and uh,
I think one of like the precursors to what we
do you know? In fact, he there's a quote on
(01:55):
him being an explainer, which I thought was very cool,
which is the geekiest remember, but it's a pretty it's
a good term. Yeah, he said. I think I'm able
to explain things because understanding wasn't entirely easy for me.
Some things that the most brilliant students were able to
see instantly, I had to work to understand. I can
remember what I had to do to figure it out.
(02:16):
The very brilliant ones figure it out so fast that
sounds familiar. They never see the mechanics of understanding. So
I really identified with that, and like, man, that's kind
of what we do, you know? We worked really hard
to understanding this because we're not experts, and he wasn't
an expert on one thing. He covered a lot of
That's what made him unique, a lot of different facets
of science. Yeah, which you don't see much. No you don't.
(02:40):
I mean it does pop up here and there. But
if you if you think about the people who are
like that, like Jared Diamond is a really good current
example Neil type. No, that's Dustin Diamond, Okay, Jared Diamond.
Uh man. I don't even remember what he's trained in.
He's just such a generalist. But he wrote like guns,
(03:01):
germs and steel. Um, he's got a little a little
Robert bork Beard, good guy. Um, he's one. Neil deGrasse
Tyson has definitely become one, although he's still very much
an astrophysician, right, yeah, but he's he's sort of talked
about a lot of times in terms of being like Sagan,
and not just because he rebooted Cosmos, which was Sagan's show,
(03:25):
but um, oh yeah, he's just the face of science,
like he's the go to guy. Sure. I mean, like
he was the obvious choice for Cosmos because he was
already so much like Sagan following in those footsteps for sure.
Those other guys like Brian Green as a science explainer,
Bill Nye as a science explainer, Um, they're definitely out
there for sure. But you can you make a good
(03:45):
point that Sagan was one of the originals, if not
the original, but the idea that he was somebody who
was willing to draw parallels from different disciplines in science
or bring him together to create, um, something approachable for people,
to kind of invigorate people's love of science. I think
(04:05):
it's amazing. Yeah, it made him beloved. It also just
made him not reviled. This is not the right word,
but he was definitely criticized in the scientific establishment. Uh
in parts for sure. Some people in the scientific establishment
loved him, and some were like, uh, you're not doing
much real research, you know, you're just sort of a
(04:28):
face guy. And um, I poo poo that entirely and
say that he did a lot for science and people
like him are are necessary, and uh, I value their work. Okay,
you're taking a stand. Huh. Yeah, man, Carl Sagan is amazing.
He's one of my heroes. Yeah, he's like I watched
Cosmos when I was ten years old. I've never seen it. Man,
(04:50):
it was great. I mean it was a PBS show
that had tens of millions of viewers. I know, millions
and millions. Yeah, so that's your saken. Yeah. And you
know what he he told Johnny Carson, he never said
billions and billions. Uh, he said billions upon billions, right,
(05:10):
I never heard it. There's a super cut on YouTube
of all of his billions, millions and trillions from Dots
Moats cut to uh with it like hip hop music
bed and um, is that a glorious down? I don't
remember the name of it. There's one. There's a video
a song that somebody created with him, a super cut
(05:31):
of him. It's called Glorious Toll. That's pretty great. Well,
I never heard billions and billions in there. There's a
lot of billions and millions and trillions. He loved those words,
but um, he said, I never specifically said to billions
and billions, and I couldn't. I didn't hear it either,
So he's a misunderstood genius. Yeah. Became I think Carson
did at first, or maybe it was Saturday out Live,
(05:53):
and then that just became the thing. Billions and billions
because he is a weird little dude for sure, and
a lot of what's easily parody, but he also seemed
to have a really good sense of humor about himself
at least and in general. He smoked grass. He thought
grass was far out. Man. We just vaulted back in
(06:14):
time with that one. Yeah, he smoked the marijuana grass
making a contemporary. He was on the pot, Yeah, he did.
He liked to smoke weed and um. In fact, I
have a quote here from he wrote an essay. The
quote reads, and woe. Best Pavement album by the way.
He wrote an essay. I don't know about that. Oh yeah,
(06:35):
what's your favorite? Um, I've played it in enchanted. Yeah,
the first one. It's hard, although Crooked Ray and Crooked
Rain was pretty good. No, I've never seen him more
interested in what we're talking about. It's funny. In college,
we used to have a saying, it's not a matter
of which album are we gonna listen to next? It's
which Pavement album are we gonna listen to next? Just
put down T shirt? Yeah. So anyway, Sagan wrote an
(06:58):
essay and Marijuana reconsidered, um, and here is one of
his quotes. He said, the cannabis experienced has greatly improved
my appreciation for art, subject which I had never much
appreciated before. The understanding of the intent of the artist,
which I can achieve when high, sometimes carries over to
when I'm down. This is one of many human frontiers
(07:21):
which cannabis has helped me traverse. Was that Kermit the
Frog doing Carl Sagan Let's sort of kermity but he
uh yeah, I mean that's not it doesn't define him
or anything, but yeah, he liked to smoke the pot
and he liked to get out his little tape recorder
and talk about stuff. But on the turnal neck, yeah,
with nothing else. It was the sixties and seventies, of
course he was, and I think the eighties and maybe
(07:44):
even into the nineties, that's true. So um, let's let's
I guess, let's go back to the beginning. We've done
some pretty good teasing here, right, And when you're talking
about a human being, there's no place better to start
at the beginning than with their earth Brooklyn, New York.
(08:04):
His mother was Rachel, was a garment industry manager and
apparently oh yeah, yeah, but his mom was overbearing. Yes,
mom was overbearing. Sorry, dad was a Ukrainian immigrant Samuel
who worked as a garment industry manager. Because in ninety
four they prebad and hire women to do chops like that,
which is really stinky. So uh and we it's not
(08:27):
like we've met the lady or anything and can report
that she's overbearing. The idea that she's overbearing comes from
this long standing image of her of she had very
high hopes and high expectations and aspirations for Carl very
well may have made the man. Yeah, you know, moved
to New Jersey after a little while and was voted
(08:47):
the class brain at Rahway High School. And I thought
this is interesting in this what article is this the
New Yorker, which one while why Carl Sagan's truly replaceable
Smiths and Enjoel Achenbach. Uh. It was a great article though,
But they tracked down in nineteen fifty three a questionnaire
(09:07):
from high school that he had to fill out on
his own character traits, and Sagan said he gave himself
low marks for vigorousness like with sports, an average rating
for emotional stability, and the highest ratings for being dominant
and reflective. I'm gonna start using that vigorousness. Yeah, and
I worked out this morning. I'm so vigorous. Um. So
(09:30):
that's not just a piece of paper they dug up, chuck.
That's from his archives, which were actually sold to the
Library of Congress by his widow. Um what is his
widow's name, Anne andrew In one of his uh well,
his his widow, but he was married three times, um
and uh ann sold the papers. Are supplied the papers
(09:52):
for an honorarium, I guess, to the Library of Congress.
And the Library of Congress got that money from Seth
McFarlane had basically Seth McFarland bought Carl Sagan's papers and
donated them to the Library of Congress. Yes, that's why
it's pretty cool. That's why it's called the Seth McFarland
Collection of the Carl Sagan and and Drury and Archive.
(10:13):
I had to put his name on there. Well, I mean, sure,
why not? You know, no, it's fine. He's he's he's
a huge fan of his work, and he's the one
who rebooted Cosmos right and genuinely, like I mean, I
gotta say, like whatever you have to say about Seth McFarland.
And there's plenty to say about Seth McFarland. He is
he proved himself a true fan of Carl Sagan and
(10:34):
a rich guy to fan. I've always liked a family guy,
so I don't have anything bad to say about him. Uh,
what have you seen American dad? No, I never got
into that. Actually, OK, yeah, it's not family guy. It's
definitely just totally different. Gotch uh seven hundred and ninety
eight boxes of stuff of archival material. Um. The guy
(10:55):
love to log every conversation he ever had, and he
thought that ever entered his brain mainly through the cassette tape.
But um, I guess that was transcribed by other folks. Yeah,
apparently that's um. Joel achenbach Um says that his his
writing style was so conversational because he didn't write, He
dictated into a dictaphone and then it was transcribed. Basically, basically,
(11:19):
it was like the Hunter S. Thompson of science. Yeah.
Remember Hunter t had like the real real he'd wear
around his neck when one is high on marijuana. It
is a buzz kill to type. Actually, that's funny. We
bring up Hunter Thompson. Hunter Thompson loved acid. You know
who else loved acid? Timothy Leary. You know who hung
out with Timothy Leary, Carl Sagan. Timothy Leary was trying
(11:40):
to get Sagan to advise him on how to build
a an interstellar arc because Leary just totally lost his
stuff by this time. Right, we should do a show
on him. Oh yeah, I'm surprised. We haven't to be crazy. Um,
let's do it, man, Yeah, we should. We should do
one on like the Mary pranks. There's a whole thing
just basically redo the electric kool Aid asset test totally.
(12:01):
It would be a good episode. But Leary um at
a mental institution because he'd been popped with a bunch
of acid I think, had a visitor in Carl Sagan
and Frank Drake of the famous Drake equation, and they
came by to say hi, and and Leary was like, seriously,
you guys have to help me design this. And they
were like this, the closest star is too far away.
You're kuk, this isn't gonna work. And Learry said he
(12:24):
since that they had some sort of neural blockage. That's
why they couldn't think like he could. Man. So that
was Carl Sagan Timothy Larry story but I think they
stayed in touch. Oh, I'm sure they did so. Uh,
young Sagan is his life kind of changes when he
goes to the World's Fair in nineteen thirty nine. He
(12:45):
was just five years old. You remember whose World's Fair
that was? Was that? No? Was it Chicago? Eddie bernays, Oh, yeah,
that was the one. Wow, the one that changed everything,
including Carl Sagan. Boy, that's a big one. Um. So
Sagan goes to the World Fair and it was sort
of a a great time, um, to be a young
kid interested in science, because in the late thirties and
(13:08):
forties and fifties, it was like everyone was captivated by
the future. Right, there's this idea that science could do anything, Yeah,
anything and very soon would. It was really exciting and um,
it was just a great time to be to be
into it. It's the uh what's his name Openheimer? No, Oppenheimer.
(13:29):
Now I'm talking about the article back like, yeah Oppenheimer,
this guy. Yeah, I'm the I'm become death. That's what
I thought you were talking about. Uh. In the article,
he makes a great point about, um, just that that
time period and um, how exploratory everything was really from then,
(13:50):
like through the nineteen seventies. That was a great, like
forty year period in science where basically that was funding
and like anything is possible, we can do anything we want,
until they started to you know, I guess disprove things
here and there, right. And actually what's interesting is there's
a corresponding boost in technology from that era too, And
a lot of people point out that all of this
(14:12):
stuff from about nineteen seventy five on is actually built
on the backs of the stuff that was built in
the forty years before that, from about nineteen thirty five
to nineteen seventy five and ever since then, we've had
a technological plateau. It's really interesting, and you don't think
about You're like, well, no, I mean we have iPhones now.
It's like, yeah, iPhones are all they're a combination of
different stuff that was first discovered or invented forty or
(14:35):
more years ago. Um, And basically everything's like that. We
were in a slump right now. So it was not
only a time where they thought science could do anything.
Science was doing just about anything. And we've since hit
a plateau and um, he the author described him. I
thought it was a great description. Sagan as a nuanced
referee Because really cool thing about Sagan was he was
(14:59):
very grounded and science and proof and facts. But he
wasn't um. He wasn't just a square and a skeptic,
although he was a skeptic, yeah, but he was also
like he wanted to to find life on other planets.
And he didn't shut things down. He was all about
the discussion of everything as long as you still did
(15:21):
the research. And we're grounded in facts as a matter
of fact. And he did not believe in UFOs. He
did not think that UFOs were extraterrestrial spacecraft. But in
nineteen sixty nine he mounted a conference on UFOs in
which everyone apparently had their say all sides. Yeah, it
wasn't like we're mounting a conference on UFOs. You can
(15:42):
come so the rest of us can poo poo your
ideas and beliefs. It was come and share your your
position on it. That's enormous, and that in and of
itself is worth remembering the person for. But this is
nineteen sixty nine, before you'd even become like a household
name or anything like it. Yeah, and I like to
think we do that and we still get emails. So
(16:02):
we got one today for people that said it's it's
dangerous to even mention other schools of thought. That's dogmatic. Yeah,
And I just I don't agree with dogmatic and close
minded and don't even bring don't even email us with
that crap. Yeah, I just don't don't even bother because
we're gonna we're gonna make fun of you on the air. Yeah,
because that's not what our shows about. Even if we
(16:24):
don't believe something, we like to throw all sides out
there because I think, uh, discussion is healthy no matter what.
That's just me. Even when we were mocking crop circles,
we still like talked about crop circles, did we not.
It's not like we just pretended like there wasn't such
a thing as crop circles. That's right, And we have
Carl Sagan, thank for laying that golden path in front
(16:44):
of us. So you want to take a break, I
don't want to, but we have we need to, Okay,
all right, we'll be right back. Alright. So we've been
(17:14):
beating around the bush here. Um, let's talk well not really,
we've been getting into it, but let's let's talk about
some of the things that Sagan uh he wasn't just
some Johnny come lately. He had uh, degree upon degree.
I think he had billions and billions. We had undergrad degree,
he had his masters, he had his PhD. He was
(17:35):
he was well versed in a lot of realms of science,
but his big thing was astronomy. Right. He had two
degrees in undergrad and masters in physics and then a
doctorate in astronomy um. And he did a little stint
at Harvard. I didn't get tenure. So he's like, I'm
out of here. And Cornell is like, you come to
us and we will treat you like a god. And
(17:56):
they did. And he settled in at Cornell and set
up his own lab, right, the Laboratory for Planetary for
Planetary Studies. Uh, and he just that was when he
really started to get going. He was doing side work
for NASA at the time as well, doing consulting. He
did that throughout his whole career, formulas, that kind of stuff. Sure,
when NASA is picking your brain about like the Apollo mission,
(18:20):
you're you're doing pretty well for yourself as a scientist.
But so he had this this this potential to to
really go as sciency as he wanted to with this stuff,
and he did in some ways in a lot of
ways with his consulting with NASA, but he also kind
of pushed NASA into humanities um direction as well, like
(18:42):
the the Voyager discs, that's a that's a really great
example of it. Like he talked NASA into including discs
on Voyager one and two, the Golden Record, Yeah, that
are They're basically like, here's some stuff that represents humanity
and Earth. Yeah, pretty much like if we ever do
mind life on Earth, we need to have something to
offer them to represent us. Yeah, yeah, what I say,
(19:06):
life on Earth? Yeah, yeah, there's life on Earth. It's
pretty much documented as fact, life out there, extraterrestrial life.
He said, we needed to present ourselves and what Earth
is like and what humans are like. So he included
a hundred and fifteen images representing the diversity of life
and then uh sounds basically like his wife literally, this
(19:26):
is pretty out there. I don't know if marijuana had
anything to do with it. I think so. Yeah, his wife,
and she created her own sounds for the project. Basically,
she meditated and then thought told the story of the
universe by thinking it with her brain, and then those
brain waves were translated into music, and she said, my
(19:48):
mind also wandered to my love of my husband, so
that was translated. So they blasted. That was her message
that they blasted out to space, which is pretty far
out right, but but awesome messages of love. Yure, man,
it's pretty neat. He wasn't afraid to show his tender side. No, no, no,
he definitely wasn't. He was vulnerable in a lot of woics. Um.
(20:10):
And also on those discs, there's I believe etchings of
a man and a woman. I think it's etched on
the disc and they're like laser disc size. They're super
retro and made of gold, which is pretty cool. Um.
And then there's a basically a depiction of where Earth
is in the Milky Way, I believe, so it's basically
saying we're here if you ever find this. And then
(20:30):
of course Voyager one, I believe, got lost and awakened
and became sentient and then became a god on to
some beings. Remember, and I think Star Trek one, the
first the first movie. I never saw this veture. You
never saw any of the Star Trek movies, dude, I've
never seen one episode of the TV show. I've never
(20:53):
seen one episode of the Next Generation. The only Star
Trek thing I've ever ingested was Our Apologies to a Wheaten.
By the way, was that first movie that J. J.
Abrams did. I saw that. I saw the second one
of that. I also saw I think Star Trek maybe one, two,
and three. And in one of those there's this god
(21:15):
vjer who's like this artificial intelligence, and they finally meet
Vijor and realized that the oi uh is blotted out
and it's really Voyager one, the Space Probe. Wow. Yeah,
that's pretty cool. I thought it was pretty neat too.
I'm not a tricky by any means, but yeah, they
were still entertaining. I just never got into it. I
(21:36):
was always a Star Wars guy, not that they're mutually exclusive,
but I don't know, it just didn't grab me. You know,
who would have predicted that we go off on a
Star Trek Tangent and the Carl. Although I think I've
told the story of working on a commercial with William Chatterer,
you have, didn't he like bend you over a car
and pretend to arrestue That was punch, Hey shot, it
(21:57):
was t J. Hooker. Could have happened. Yeah, he was
though he was awesome. He'd loved being William Shatner. Oh yeah, man,
you can tell like guy wears it like a suit.
Yeah he was. He was awesome, very nice guy. So, um,
we're getting off track again here, Sagan with science. There
was actual science to stuff. As a matter of fact,
the idea of the greenhouse effect is rooted partially in
(22:19):
his work. Yeah, I mean that that had been around
since the late nineteenth century. But um, he looked at
like a planet like Venus and said, you know what,
Venus is really hot, and I think wise because this
greenhouse effect. And um, then because of that work, people
started thinking, well, maybe Earth has a greenhouse effect. Going
(22:41):
on to right really opened the door for that line
of thought. It did, and he's correct. Earth definitely does
have a greenhouse effect and it's problematic. Correct. Another one
that he's widely cited for is the Fate Young Young
Son paradox. Um. I don't know if the if he
was the one who first pointed this out, or if
(23:04):
he just kind of built upon it and it's still
not fully solved. I think so he and George Mullen
figured this out. I'm pretty sure Yeah. So the idea
is that Earth early on its history was a ball
of ice. But problematically, there was also some liquid water
on Earth too, It wasn't all ice. This doesn't make
much sense because the Sun as it stands now is
(23:27):
just about enough to keep Earth from from being a
frozen ball of ice. But back then, when Earth was
mostly a frozen ball of ice, the Sun was only
at like s of its luminosity or lumosity, luminosity one
of those luminosity right, yeah, sure, um that it is today,
and so it doesn't make sense that there should be
(23:48):
any liquid water on Earth. And it's called the faint
Young Sun paradox. And um, I believe they figured out
or they Sagan and Mullin said, well, it's the greenhouse effect. Yeah,
and I don't think they ever fully settled on that. Um. Still,
it's it's outstanding. Yeah. They think it might be a
combination of that and some other stuff. That's right. Uh,
what else did you do? He looked at um Titan,
(24:08):
Saturn's moon at one point and said, you know what,
I think there's organic molecules up there and that's why
it looks red. And he was right. Yeah. He went
to h Yeah. So, I mean he he wasn't afraid
to throw a wacky hypothesis out there, and that did
not do him any favors in the scientific community either. No,
(24:28):
because there is a definite um arrogance associated with throwing
out the hypothesis and not doing the work, leaving it
to other people to do the work, and then you
still get the credit for throwing the hypothesis out there. Um.
It's it's one of the it's one of the main
reasons why Sagan was highly criticized by some people in
(24:50):
the scientific community. Yeah, there's um in the Smithsonian article. Um,
they say there's sort of an unwritten rule among scientists. Uh,
they'll shout that speculate, that'll shout talk about things outside
your immediate area of expertise. It's a big one that
he transgressed. Yeah. He was all over the place, uh
and now shouting that horse around on late night TV
talk shows. Yeah with Carson. Yeah, he was on Carson
(25:12):
two dozen times over a couple of decades and was,
like I said, sort of the Neil de grasse Tyson.
He was the go to when anyone in the press
needed anything for television. He was the guy and anything
that had anything even remotely to do with science, even
if I had to do with theology, and somebody wanted
a sciences opinion of theology, go to Carl Sagan. Yeah,
(25:35):
And so from Sagan's at his point of view, he's
just furthering science. What's the problem From this other scientists
point of view, It's like it makes it look like
Carl Sagan is trained in everything from astrophysics, which he was,
to theology and biology and anthropology and every ology in between,
(25:56):
and he wasn't. True. There's some professional jealousy too, you know.
I think, um, you know how it is like he's
getting all the press, and uh, other folks are stuck
in a lab doing what they think is the real work.
So I kind of get it in a way. But
I just think that people like Bill Nye and Tyson
and and Sagan are hugely necessary. You know, you gotta
(26:18):
have a face out there furthering it. You definitely need,
you know, yea, and you gotta have a media outlet
like Parade magazine to put that face one that was
his go to for sure? Was he in there a lot?
Oh yeah, it was. That's the Sunday insert right, Yeah,
and that was like kind of the big joke because
that he stopped publishing in academic journals and started publishing
(26:40):
and Parade Magazine. And if you remember in our Nuclear
Winter episode, yeah he was. Did he completely in uh
think of that? No, he just furthered it. He was
part of a group that that was organized that basically said, like,
if you guys start setting off nuclear bombs, it's not
going to be this thing that just it's like, there's
(27:01):
going to be this thing called Nuclear Winner. And they
hadn't done all the science yet before he went and
wrote an article in Parade Magazine and told the world
about Nuclear Winner, and in the opinion of the science
that's he was working with, like really undermine their case
because it's sensationalized it. Yeah, but what it also did
was it got your your average Joe thinking about nuclear
(27:22):
war in the Cold War and maybe we shouldn't be
zooming toward our own demise right at a hundred miles.
And that's the big back and forth about Sagan's legacy, Yeah,
or the the actual work he did too. Yeah, and
you mentioned that theology. He was famously um spiritual agnostic.
He was a spiritual agnostic, is how he defined himself. Yeah,
(27:44):
he didn't classify until as atheist. No, and the reason why,
true to Sagan's own um own way, was that he
could not scientifically prove that there was not God. So
he said, how can I call myself an atheist? Which
is um, it's pretty cool. And actually he's the guy
supposedly that coined the term extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
(28:06):
That's what I here? Does that go back to him?
So he's like, skeptics love the dude. Oh yeah, he's
the father of the skeptic. But I think he I
don't know. I think he gives skeptics the good name. Sure,
but if you want to prove your bones to how
hardcore skeptic you are, criticize Carl Sagan in the skeptic community,
(28:30):
you can really show that you're a super skeptic. Yeah.
Sagan was a milk toast as far as skeptics go. Yeah,
because he would indulge other lines of thought, um, but
still require proof. But he wouldn't just shut it down
right out of the gate. So we will get back
to Carl Sagan right after these messages. All right, chuckers,
(29:12):
we're back. So, um, there was one thing that Carl
saying he would poke funded himself. He never abandoned. It
was this idea that possibly, maybe, just maybe, um, there
was intelligent life out there, and um, he wanted there
to be for sure, you know. Uh, he helped disprove
(29:33):
or set the conditions against life being out there for sure.
Like for example, um, he suggested that on Mars, the
shifting features of Mars were a result of dust storms,
and it turned out he was right, But those dust
storms also basically said there's probably not life on Mars
just from that reason alone, those horrible dust storms, right yeah,
(29:54):
and he um, actually he want to pull a surprise
for some of his work. I think he wrote more
than dozen books. But one of the things he wrote
was Contact, the novel not uh you know, he was
totally into sci fi and wrote you know, the movie
uh Contact McConaughey and Jodie Foster that was based on
(30:14):
his novel. And of course that movie was about sending
signals into outer space trying to find life. So you
could tell the guy it was something he loved to
talk about and write about. Oh yeah, but he also
loved it like actually that that kind of research, which
is totally up his Alley like st um, the search
for extraterrestrial intelligence is is evidence based in science based
(30:38):
search for extraterrestrials? Right, Yes, that was that's Carl Sagan
through and through. That's just totally him. He was, um,
he wanted to believe in extraterrestrial life, but he needed
proof to believe in it. Really. Yeah, he just couldn't
make that jump to just saying yes, they they exist
without any proof. Yeah, exactly. So he's writing books, he
(31:00):
NASA is picking his brain, he's all over the place
and he eventually We've talked about his TV show debuted
on UM well, actually the debuted nineteen eighty one. Yeah,
I thought eight. Yeah, yeah, I think it was, um
so I must have been nine years old. I was four.
I thought it was ten. What month was it, I
(31:23):
don't know. I don't even um. But he originally it
was the TV series is going to be called Man
and the Cosmos. But he thought that was sexist and
he was a feminist, so he said, um, he proposed
a couple of more titles. One was called There Terrible
t H E R E uh with some subtitle, and
then the other was Cosmos along with a subtitle. Um,
(31:47):
and he spent like three years around the world filming
this thing, right, Yeah, and it just it was a
what it's not like it ran for seasons and seasons.
It was like a a single run of shows on
PBS that televis an event. Yeah, it was a TV
event exactly. One of the other things that he did,
which I never knew, was he wrote along with his son.
(32:08):
Now because his son uh has a byeline, I guess
Jimmy Sagan Todd Sagan his five kids I think total,
but one of his sons became a sci fi writer,
another one became more of a science writer. So basically
he split into two. Yeah. Actually I never thought about
that way. Um, I just explained two of his kids existence.
(32:32):
He wrote the entry for Life for Encyclopedia Britannica, like
this is what life is. Yeah. He was fairly energetic dude,
for sure. Yeah, to say the least. I mean he
did Cosmos in his mid forties, just out of nowhere,
a lot accomplished for a pot head, he really did,
you know, He's like the Cypress Hill of of science.
(32:52):
I don't know, hey, man, they put out like three
albums in like four or five years. Yeah, it's a
lot of work and then retired. Yeah, secand did not retire, No,
he did not, sir. He worked up until his death
in n Yeah. He dies after battling UM, a bone
marrow disease for about a year or so to two years,
(33:14):
I think is closer. Um, he's diagnosed with it and
he needed a transplant, and his sister uh stepped up
and volunteered to give him a donation and did and
uh apparently it wasn't quite enough because he died of
an infection after about a year and a half after
um the transplant. Just sixty four years old. Yeah, too, way,
(33:35):
way too young, it really is. And in fact, yesterday,
the day we're recording this is November ten. I believe
yesterday was would have been his eighty first birthday. Oh yeah,
you didn't plan that, nope. Wow, that's a pretty impressive
speaking to me from billions of light years away. Yeah,
that's funny that you say that. Because somebody wrote to him, Um,
(33:56):
they said, how do you know that there's not a heaven?
And um, he had this really great response. He remember
in his archives, he was a pack rat, so he
kept a lot of correspondence and from it they found Um.
In this achembach Um article, there's a a citation of
a letter that he wrote to somebody, and UM, he says,
thanks for your letter, nothing like the Christian notion of
(34:18):
heaven has been found out to about ten billion light years,
and then in parentheses he puts one light year is
almost six trillion miles. Best wishes. And the point is
like he took the time to write the letter back
to this guy, like he would engage rather than just
ignore the letter entirely. So he entertained and indulged people's
(34:39):
ideas enough that he would engage with somebody he didn't
even know about whether there's heaven or not. And this
this was sent um the year he died. Actually, so
he's writing this from his sick bed. Wow, that's awesome. Uh.
As far as whether or not it bothered him, whether
or not he was how he was thought of in
the scientific community, UM, it kind of all came to
(35:01):
a head in Uh, he was on a list to
be included um as a nominee for the National Academy
of Sciences. Uh. In the end he was not included,
and it bothered him. Um. He kind of brushed it
off to two people in public saying that, you know,
I didn't think I would get in any way, but
(35:23):
his widow said, uh, quote, it was painful. It seemed
like a unsolicited slight end quote. And they ended up
giving him an honorary medal, which was nice, but that
was definitely a big sting for him. Yeah. The National
Academy of Sciences said, nope, you're not a member. Yeah,
you're not one of us. They basically said that the
(35:43):
the actual research that you did wasn't strong enough, which, uh,
it stinks. It sounds like a definite calculated slight Yeah. Yeah, yeah,
he's included in my book. Yeah for sure. Man. Uh
so my hat is off to you, sir forever. Do
you got anything else? No, man, I just uh that
someone needs to make a great documentary or movie about
(36:05):
the guy. Yeah, you know, starring Ashton Kutcher is Carl Sagan.
That guy can play anybody. Yeah. Uh. If you want
to know more about Carl Sagan, you can start with
this delightful little article on how stuff works by typing
Carl Sagan in the search bar. And since I said
search bar, its time for listener mail. Hey guys, my
(36:26):
name is Connie. I've been a listener for a couple
of months after my brother turned me onto the show.
Since then, I've been completely obsessed and haven't been able
to stop listening. UM on track to become a nurse,
so I can can't get enough of anything science or
biology related. I want to thank you for a couple
of things. UM in a base level anatomy class right
now and the rigor Mortist podcast saved my behind and
(36:47):
my grade on my cadaver dissection and muscle's desk. A
lot of the things you covered, like the nature of
the muscle's relationship with a TP and the integral proteins
really helped me pass my exam and not pass out
in the cadaver lab. You also even taught my anatomy
professor something new about keila cells. How about that last
year I was diagnosed with anxiety and depression due to
(37:08):
the fact that I could never really fit in the
right way. I lost almost all of my friends when
I made an early jump from high school to college,
and being able to count on YouTube weekly has really
helped a little bit with the loneliness and learning something
new is always a healthy distraction from anxiety. So you guys,
really give me something new and exciting to discuss and
learned about twice a week when you work forty hours,
(37:30):
it really goes a long way. Uh. It would absolutely
make his ear if you could give a shout out
to my brother, Matt the physics teacher. That is very nice. Yeah,
he's the reason I started listening to you and sharing.
The love of knowledge is really something that has kept
us close in spite of our eleven year age difference.
It sparked so many interesting and inspired conversations between us.
So thank you for what you're doing and helping many
(37:51):
of us make it through tough spots. That is much
love from Connie from Illinois. So thank you, Connie, and
hello to Matt your brother. Hey, Matt the physics teacher. Yeah,
thanks guys. It's we love families that listen and bringing
people together. Man, it's makes us feel good. Yeah. The
family that listens to s Y s K together stays together.
That's right. It's a dire warning. Uh. If you want
(38:14):
to let us know how great somebody in your life
is because they introduced you to the stuff, you should
know we love hearing that stuff. You can tweet to
us at s Y s K podcast. You can join
us on Facebook dot com slash stuff you Should Know.
You can send us an email to Stuff podcast at
how stuff Works dot com and has always joined us
at our home on the web. Stuff you Should Know
dot Com. Stuff you Should Know is a production of
(38:37):
I Heart Radio. For more podcasts my Heart Radio, visit
the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.
Stuff You Should Know News
Hosts And Creators
Chuck Bryant
Josh Clark
Show Links
AboutOrder Our BookStoreSYSK ArmyRSSPopular Podcasts
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Decisions, Decisions
Welcome to "Decisions, Decisions," the podcast where boundaries are pushed, and conversations get candid! Join your favorite hosts, Mandii B and WeezyWTF, as they dive deep into the world of non-traditional relationships and explore the often-taboo topics surrounding dating, sex, and love. Every Monday, Mandii and Weezy invite you to unlearn the outdated narratives dictated by traditional patriarchal norms. With a blend of humor, vulnerability, and authenticity, they share their personal journeys navigating their 30s, tackling the complexities of modern relationships, and engaging in thought-provoking discussions that challenge societal expectations. From groundbreaking interviews with diverse guests to relatable stories that resonate with your experiences, "Decisions, Decisions" is your go-to source for open dialogue about what it truly means to love and connect in today's world. Get ready to reshape your understanding of relationships and embrace the freedom of authentic connections—tune in and join the conversation!