April 4, 2011 • 40 mins
Bullying is an age-old institution, but internet access has added a new layer to this pattern of repeated intimidation, harassment and ridicule. In this episode, Chris and Jonathan take a closer look at the phenomenon known as cyberbullying.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.
It's ready. Are you get in touch with technology? With
tech Stuff from how stuff works dot com. Hello again, everyone,
Welcome to tech stuff. My name is Chris Poulette and
I am an editor at how stuff works dot com.
(00:22):
Sitting across from me as always a senior writer, Jonathan Strickland.
I want my two dollars. I haven't thought about that
in a long time. Actually, I accorded from that movie
not too long ago. But you know what, it's a
good one. Not sense then, not sense then. So today
we're actually gonna tackle a pretty serious subject, but it's
it's one that has had a lot of attention recently
(00:45):
for various reasons. Um, we're gonna talk about cyber bullying,
and this kind of relates to a previous episode we
recorded a couple of years ago, the about internet trolls, right,
controlls work, cyber bullying being a sort of a specific
type of internet troll. Yeah, yeah, And um, I think
(01:06):
it's kind of interesting we're gonna have to people will
ask about this. Cyber bullying in a lot of ways
is not especially different in character from Frankly bullying in person.
It's just using the tools of the internet. You know,
now that we have the ability to publish instantly and frequently. Um,
(01:28):
you know, people use those tools to pick on others. Yeah,
and uh, and we've been seeing a lot of this
in the news, uh, from like I said, from various sources,
over various um activities, you know, things that have happened recently.
But the one that kind of spurred this, at least
from my perspective, was the whole Rebecca Black phenomenon train wreck,
(01:54):
however you want to call it. Right, So, for the
few of you out there who may not have heard
of who of Rebecca Black? I suspect most of you
probably have. Rebecca Black is a thirteen year old girl
who received an amazing gift her mom um paid for
her to have a music video done. And it's a
(02:17):
The song is called Friday and let's just get this
all of the way. It is not a good song.
It is very let's let's the lyrics are banal, would
you yes? The tune itself is pretty catchy, you know
it's it's it's one of those that's that's been engineered
to get stuck in your head and stay there until
(02:38):
you start to go crazy. But Rebecca Black did not
write the song but not but she did. She did
perform it, and the song features her voice being auto
tuned to the point where it sounds almost robotic and
um and like I said, the lyrics are really really boring,
but not really that's not really here nor there. She
(02:59):
uploaded the video to YouTube and then, um, I think
it was on like February tenth, two thousand eleven that
she uploaded it to YouTube, and it took about a week.
But then people started to to share this video and
it went totally viral, and before you knew it, there
were thousands and thousands of views of this video. Yeah.
(03:20):
I had read an article in preparation on Mashable by
Todd Wasserman who was basically charting it. And yes, you
know February tenth, this when it was initially published. Uh
you remember Michael J. Nelson, don't you? Yes? Yes, of
Mystery Science Theater three thousand and tracks fame. Um. He
tweeted about it on his Twitter account to he's got
(03:44):
According to Wasserman, more than nineteen thousand followers, probably had more.
I didn't actually look this morning right before we decided
to do this podcast, but um basically said, you know,
this is a catchy song, but it also answers the
question what's the worst video ever made? It's a quote
from that and and of course when someone who is
(04:05):
got that level of followers, you know, you're it's going
to attract attention. And that's around the time that it
started picking up, and that was in March. So really,
I should also point out that I think Total Eclipse
of the Heart still gives it a run for the
money as total worst video ever made. But anyway, I'm
not fond of the song to begin with, let alone
the video turn around Bright Eyes the uh. At the
(04:28):
time of the recording of this podcast, which is in
late March right now, according to YouTube, the video has
had forty seven million, seventy six thousand, three hundred four views.
Oh there's another one. Yeah, And and we should also
add that YouTube does not update these in real time,
that the numbers update to a schedule that makes sense
(04:52):
to YouTube basically in batches. Yeah, so so it could
be that that number is, of course not entirely accurate.
Even as I'm saying this right now into the microphone.
Of course, will not be accurate by the time you
hear this podcast, so million views, that's a lot. I mean,
that's an incredible And the song is actually on iTunes
(05:12):
as well. You can purchase the song on iTunes, and
a lot of people have done that, and you could
argue that maybe it's in a sense of irony, they're
they're ordering it because they think it's so bad. It's
it's funny, and therefore they're going to get the song.
Some people may legitimately like the song, although they may
also say that it's a terrible song. Personally, Like I said,
(05:32):
I think the tune is kind of catchy. I think
the the the lyrics again are so ridiculously plain, Like
it's just it's explaining such a mundane experience that you know,
you can't help but think, wow, this is kind of
this is really ridiculous, right in a nutshell. It's Friday,
and she's happy about that because it means it's the weekend.
(05:53):
It's the weekend. And I think it's when you hear
that Sunday comes afterward. That was the point where I
was like, really, I mean, just the going down and
have to get a bowl, have to eat your serial
that was That was a little rough too. But here's
here's where we're leading with this. This video has prompted
a lot of people to leave extremely negative comments on
(06:15):
the YouTube video. Now I would not I don't argue
that leaving a negative comment for a bad video and
saying like, wow, this was a really dumb song or
this was a really dumb video. That's one thing. Yeah, yeah,
I want to point out it may sound since we're
both kind of negative on the song. I don't want
to give anyone the wrong impression and think that we
(06:36):
are are anti Rebecca Black or the songwriter, or or
anyone involved with it. I mean, it's, uh, you know,
everyone involved is making an attempt to entertain people, and
you could say that it was, you know, an unsuccessful attempt,
or at least it wasn't successful in the way they
had intended. Right, Even even star musicians can write yeah,
(07:00):
it's not And I'm certainly you know you have the
old the old saying well, let's see you try it. Well,
you know, I haven't ever written a song, so I
can't really talk. And you know what, there's some bad
songs out there that have become incredibly popular and became standards.
Someone left the Cake out in the Rain. I'm just saying,
if you look at the lyrics to MacArthur Park, it
(07:21):
is the dumbest song. I mean, it's dumber than Friday.
People seriously read the lyrics. So yeah, we're not angry
at at anyone involved with the project, right, But the
point being that there have been a lot of people
who have left comments that were directed personally at Rebecca Black.
So we're not talking about people who are criticizing the
song or criticizing the video or saying that, you know,
(07:41):
the subject matter is ridiculous. We're talking about people who
are directing personal attacks at Rebecca Black to the point
of saying that you are stupid, or you are ugly,
or you know, uh, you know, things like that, things
that have nothing to do with the actual subject matter
but are more of a personal nature that I think
constitute cyber bullying. You know, it's it's it's harassing someone
(08:05):
directly well as a matter of fact. Um she she
came out in an interview not terribly long ago and
uh said, and I quote at times, it feels like
I'm being cyber bullied end quote, which um, I actually
found that in an article in Time magazine online by
(08:28):
hands Villa Rica and UM basically he uh was was
saying that this isn't helping her case because she's drawing
attention to the fact that she's being attacked and for
some people that leave them to UM. But in that article,
um Hans also mentioned that UM he had spoken with
(08:52):
Karen Slovak in Ohio University professor UM and she basically
said that cyber bullying is it doesn't really fit this
what is going on with Rebecca Black necessarily, although it
may she may change her mind. Now this was done
uh several days ago, probably about a week and a
(09:13):
half ago by the time we're recording this, so UM,
you know what what she said was that cyber bulling
has done over time, like it's consistently applied. It's not
one personal attack. If somebody attacks you, that's not bullying,
is what she's saying. Bullying is something that you know,
the big kid comes up and asks you for your
lunch money every day, So yeah, I got you. So
(09:34):
it's it's repeated and it's yes, over it got you.
But at this point you might argue that by now,
now that it's been several weeks and it's still going
on that it is it has graduated to actual cyber bullying. Um,
but yeah, they they He spoke to several experts about
it and said, um, you know, yeah, it may not
(09:55):
necessarily be cyber bullying, but it is definitely a personal attack,
and uh know it's it's painful to the person being attacked. Ye,
and she has said as much. Chris and I have
talked offline about how sometimes you know, we get negative reviews,
and that's legitimate. You know, if people don't like what
we do, then I I don't think there's any reason
(10:16):
why they shouldn't say so, or why they cannot offer
criticisms or anything like that. But occasionally we get uh
personal attack comments, things that things that are not criticisms
or helpful in any way. They're just you know, you're
stupid or something like that. And that hurts, you know,
even even as a grown adult. You know, there's there's
(10:37):
an element, there's an emotional element there. And yeah, I
don't even know this person as far as I know.
This person could be uh like the person who directs
an attack towards me, maybe someone who I would never
care for or respect in person if I met them.
But that's beside the point that you don't. It doesn't
feel good to get that kind of stuff, and if
you get enough of it, it could really affect yourself image. Now, fortunately,
(10:59):
with the the case of Rebecca Black, it appears that
she's got a pretty level head on her, which that's
amazing because she's thirteen. When I was thirteen, I did
not have a level head. Um, technically I don't right now.
It's kind of rounded. But anyway, the uh no, it's
when you're when you're thirteen. Sorry, I'm interacted. I was
going to say that that's you know, that's a a
(11:22):
troublesome time. You're going through a lot of changes in
your life. Um, you know, starting to come into your
own as an adult, and you know the the opinion
of your peers is very important to you. Yeah, and
we have a lot of listeners who are in that
age range twelve to uh to sixteen. So imagine having
literally thousands of people saying that you are not worth anything.
(11:43):
So there were I remember Rebecca Black did an interview
with Good Morning America in which she said that there
were people leaving comments saying things like you should starve yourself,
you're too fat, or you should cut yourself or things
like that. I mean people saying that you should harm yourself,
that that's me. That's a threat, is really what that
comes down to. It may not be a threat that
(12:04):
anyone's going to act on, but you get enough of those,
and that's really gonna affect yourself worth if you aren't careful.
And like I said, apparently, uh, Rebecca Black has a
very good um um. She she's she's comfortable with herself
enough where that's not affecting her um. And she says
that she no longer is paying attention to the negative reviews,
which is helping a lot. And she's also taking steps.
(12:27):
I mean, she's making some serious money off of this
this music video, and that's of course fueling more people
to even up the ante and talking about how ridiculous
it is, how terrible it is. But the fact is
is that at least on one one analyst I saw
said that they had projected she would make around twenty
thousand dollars off iTunes and another twenty five thousand off YouTube.
(12:49):
I might have those mixed up, um, And that was
just one analyst, so it may be that it could
be more than that. Rebecca Black by the Way has
also said that she's going to donate some of her
proceedings to uh to relief efforts for the victims of
the Japan earthquake and tsunami, and that she's also donating
some of the money to her own school. I think
(13:09):
that's remarkable, you know, it's an amazing thing. So considering
the storm she weathered, I think that she's she's behaved admirably.
Now to get back to the people who are directing
these attacks. The internet is a weird thing. Uh. We
see there are cases of bandwagons that go for or
(13:30):
against certain causes, and sometimes it doesn't make much sense,
but you'll see that that they'll become there'll be this
sort of groundswelling of support for or against certain people. Uh.
And sometimes it's a great thing. So for example, in
the case of of Katie Goldman, Katie Goldman was the
(13:53):
young girl who loved Star Wars and she would but
she was getting teased when she would go to school
because she had a little Star our Wars backpack and
Star Wars lunch box and things, and she was told
by the boys that Star Wars is something that boys like,
not what girls like. And she she felt she felt
a lot of pressure from her peers and that that
(14:13):
she was doing something wrong and she would actually she
came to her mom and said that she wanted like
a pink lunch box, something that didn't have Star Wars
on it, because she didn't want to be teased anymore. Well,
there was this huge ground swelling of support amongst the
internet because first of all, a lot of us are geeks.
I incured myself, and we think there's nothing wrong with
being a geek. And I agree, there's nothing wrong with that.
(14:34):
And so a lot of people through support at this
young girl. She received tons of gifts from people, She
received messages from folks who have been in Star Wars
property projects. I mean, she she got a lot of support,
and it was really heartwarming to see that, Like this
is a This is a bunch of people saying, no,
it's good, you should be who you are. That's okay,
(14:57):
don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Then you see this
Rebecca Black video come out, and you see kind of
the opposite. You see all these people piling on saying
you're terrible, why are you doing this? Your music is horrible,
You're not worth anything, and it I can't help, but
suspect that there's at least some overlap that some of
the people who piled on Rebecca Black were the same
(15:17):
ones who thought you go girl for Kitty Coldman. And
the hypocrisy there is kind of amazing. Why should Kitty
Goldman be proud of who she is but Rebecca Black
be ashamed of who she is? Right, that's a mixed message.
So that again is what spurred the whole cyber bullying story. Now,
the actual stories about cyber bullying go well beyond Rebecca Black, Right,
(15:40):
we have had a lot of different stories come out
in the news about particularly about teenagers who have either
committed suicide or attempted suicide. And and at least part
of the reason for that that horrible decision, uh stemmed
from cyber bullying online and uh and and that's just
(16:03):
it's it's so unthinkably terrible to me that that people
online can feel the freedom to criticize or bully other folks.
I think part of it is that when you're online,
if you're the attacker, you kind of feel a sense
of distance, like the words you're saying don't really impact anything,
(16:23):
because you're not really telling the person to their face.
You're telling a website or you're telling a screen these things, right, Well,
a lot of people wouldn't have the courage to go
up to that person or yeah, or even if it's
not courage, I mean, yes, I think that's a that's
that's definitely a legitimate point. But there's some people who
(16:45):
if you were to present them with a computer screen
or the actual person and you know, whatever it was
that triggered that that comment, if the person were there,
it wouldn't necessarily even be a matter of courage. It's
that that cultural pressure of saying, no, you don't say
that to a person. That's just wrong. You wouldn't come
up to a person and say, you know, you're you're
ugly or you're fat or whatever. I mean some people would,
(17:07):
but well most people would not. But then you show
them on a screen. You've got that level of distance there,
and suddenly that some of those those cultural barriers that
would prevent you from doing such a thing in person
are gone, and you don't feel restrained, so you start
doing But the problem is that those words still hurt
when you read them, right, Yeah, I was just thinking too.
(17:30):
Another thing that you have sort of spurring this along too,
is maybe you're you've decided somebody mentioned the video to
You've gone to YouTube, and now all of a sudden
you can read all the other people who are attacking
her for the quality of the song and of the video,
and you go, you know what, this does stink? And
(17:51):
you know, and look at her, look at her, You're
gonna weigh in, Yeah, exactly, or so it's a it's
a mob mentality exactly online and you get you get
that that thing. You know. You might think, oh, I've
got this great, great snappy bar, but then I want
to throw in there. And you're doing it as part
of a mask conversation, right, You're not necessarily thinking I'm
directing this at someone. I'm just I got this funny
(18:13):
thing that's really really sharp and cruel and acidic, and
it's gonna be awesome and people are gonna laugh, not
thinking ultimately the target of this is a thirteen year
old girl. So um, yeah, there's a lot of those
elements there. So and this is kind of again like
armchair psychology and armchair sociology, but there have been several
(18:36):
studies about cyber bullying. There's actually a I found a
document called cyber Bullying Research Summary cyber Bullying and Suicide,
which was very disturbing to me. And in the highlights
from the research section, the report says that they surveyed
students who are are young people who had been um
(18:58):
active online and tried to determine, you know, how many
of them had admitted to either considering or even attempting suicide,
how many of them had been victims of bullying, how
many of them have been victims of cyber bullying specifically. Well,
the highlights from the survey said that of all the
respondents reported seriously thinking about attempting suicide, so that was
(19:23):
disturbing on its own, and then that all forms of
bullying were significantly associated with increases in suicidal ideation. So
in other words, UH, the people who had seriously considered
attempting suicide, more of them had been victims of bullying
than otherwise, right, And that cyber bullying victims were almost
(19:44):
twice as likely to have attempted suicide compared to youth
who had not experienced cyber bullying. So the survey at
least suggests that they and this was around two thousand
randomly selected UH students from middle school age. So two
thousand people, that's a decent size, right, That's that's a
(20:06):
it's not a you know, you couldn't call it definitive
or anything, but it's it's a good size for a study. Um,
that suggests that there is a definite link to cyber
bullying and your sense of self worth as well as
your likelihood to consider suicide. So those words really do count.
I mean, we we've all heard the little rhyme of
(20:28):
sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can
never hurt me. That's not really true. Those words can
be really, really impactful. And because of that, and because
of the attention on recent cases of tragic suicides and
and cyber bullying in particular, there's been a lot of
uh proposed legislation in both state and federal venues to
(20:54):
ban cyber bullying or to punish cyber bullying. Probably probably
the most notable case of cyber bullying that has um
led to these efforts, these legislative efforts was Megan Meyer. Um.
It was very very well known. Yeah, I but I
believe we talked about her in the troll episode. I
(21:14):
believe I'm thinking so too. Um and Jonathan wrote a
post on it back on Mail eleven, two thousand nine
called Internet trolls come under Fire. UM, And at that
point we were talking about legislation. UM. But what had
happened Megan Meyer was had a friend who lived just
(21:35):
four houses away from her and UM, the other girl's mother,
and she basically had decided that they were growing apart.
Apparently the two girls were growing apart, and they were
concerned that Megan might have been telling stories about her,
so they decided to get back at Megan. Yeah, they
(21:55):
were trying to apparently trying to figure out what was
being said, seeing if there was a way to win
her trust through another method to uh, to see if
they can figure out what she was saying about the
other girl and and you know, possibly do a little
punishment to UM. I think I think from what I've read,
I think it sort of went awry because they had
(22:17):
a family friend who has said that she was the
one who came up with the idea to do this.
They created a fake uh persona on my Space UM
and befriended Megan Meyer. Yeah. It was It was a
boy and it was showing interest in Megan Meyers. So
you've already got that romantic, you know, and they picked
they picked a picture that was a very good looking
(22:37):
young man. Yeah. So you know, think about you are
a teenager, you're you know, you might have some insecurities,
and then you have this good looking person suddenly showing
an interest in you. I mean that that makes you
feel good, right, And they did start up a virtual
friendship with this this fake persona and this real girl,
(22:59):
and then they they began using the persona to make
personal attacks on Megan. Yeah. They they first won her
trust and then they started to use it to criticize her,
to insult her, uh and to belittle her. Um. And
so eventually, uh, she decided to hang herself because she
(23:23):
was very upset about some of the things that that
were said. And the mother, Laurie Drew Um, was charged
on several counts UM. But the case really sort of
came down to whether or not violating the terms of
service of my Space UM was illegal action. Yeah, because
(23:44):
they're they're at that point, were no cyber bullying laws
I don't think anywhere on the books. UM. And that
was the thing was they didn't really have anything to
charge them with. There was you know, what do you do?
It's like people wanted to punish them, and there wasn't
anything to punish them with, right, So that that definitely
gave rise to this, uh, this movement to try and
(24:05):
find a way to deal with cyber bullying in a
legal aspect of legal way and and there are a
lot of states that have been trying at Louisiana proposed
a cyber bullying bill that would make harassment on text
messages or through sites like Facebook illegal. Arkansas as well.
(24:25):
There's a lot of states that have actually proposed legislation.
And here's where we're going to transfer into a different
kind of conversation. I'm personally a little nervous about cyber
bullying legislation. And here's why. There's a very delicate line
you need to walk in this because on the one hand, yes,
(24:49):
you want to make sure that that there is some
way to uh to legally pursue UH punishment against people
who are are legitimately causing injury and harm to other people,
whether it's through cyber bullying or other means. Right, otherwise
you don't have you know, society breaks down if you
(25:09):
don't have that kind of stuff. But on the flip side,
you want to make sure that you do so in
a way that does not infringe upon people's First Amendment rights.
And so where is that line, Where does the line
go from this is cyber bullying. Uh, And on the
other side, this is a criticism or this is a
commentary that is legitimate in nature. And and that's gonna
(25:32):
be a very difficult thing to do. It's kind of
like saying what is art versus what is not art.
It really becomes a subjective issue. And I think judges
in the in the states where the this this, these
proposed bills become actual legislation, are going to have a
really challenging time determining in individual cases which things are
(25:54):
you know, which things constitute actual cyber bullying versus expressing
your opinion, you know, under the rights of free speech.
Now we must keep in mind, of course, free speech
is not unfettered right. You know, it's not truly free
in that there are limitations. It was Oliver Wendell Holmes
who said the right to swing my fist ends at
(26:14):
the other man's nose. Uh. That being said, you know,
you can't you cannot, uh, you cannot expect to have
complete freedom of speech because there are certain things you
cannot do. The famous example being don't yell fire in
a crowded theater. UH. The idea thing that you create
a panic and thus people can come to harm. So
(26:36):
the argument is that those people's right to an expectation
of safety overrides your right to yell something that's not true. UM.
Yes and um uh. Representative head her name right here,
Linda T. Sanchez has tried a couple of times to
introduce federal legislation UH in the House of Representatives. UM.
(27:00):
And in that that particular piece of legislation, which is
aimed to amends Title eighteen of the United States Code,
UM would define it makes a definition of cyber bullying
UM and I'll quote any communication with the intent to coerce, intimidate, harass,
or cause substantial emotional distress to a person using electronic
(27:21):
means to support severe, repeated and hostile behavior end quote
UM and and in that case, it was introduced in
the Congress in the United States UM on July th eight.
It was referred to a House subcommittee and then referred
to the Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism and Homeland Security, and
it basically died. Uh. She tried again in the Congress UM.
(27:47):
On April second, two thousand nine, it was referred to
the House Committee on the Judiciary and again to the
Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism and Homeland Security on on September
two thousand nine, there were hearings hell but again it's
it is stalled and there's there's nothing going on now.
I've seen a lot too about bullying in general, not
(28:10):
just cyber bullying, but bullying in general UM at schools
on TV. I know, I've seen lots and lots of
public service announcement. There's there's the entire it Gets Better
routine that UM for for for people, young people who
realize that that they're gay and that they are receiving
(28:32):
lots of bullying and pressure from other people because of
their identity, or they feel like they can't be who
they really are because there's this pressure around them, and
that as a result, their their sense of self worth
declines over time and they begin to consider attempting suicide
or or or having other really negative impacts on their lives.
(28:56):
We've seen a lot of the p s a s
that come out and say, look, you know, I know
that this part of your life is terrible and that
it feels like it's never going to end, but it
does get better. So yeah, I mean there's been a
lot of attention on a national and even global level
to this kind of of thing. And and I know
there have been uh principles, school principles who've been pressured
(29:18):
to do things. But part of the problem is that,
you know, this is cyber bullying. A lot of it
is not taking place in school. And even though for example,
was limited to two people, two kids, the bullier and
the bullied, Uh, if it's happening at eight o'clock at
night after school, there's really nothing the principle can do
(29:39):
about it. And because I mean legally, because we're talking
about the internet, it wouldn't even necessarily be two people
in the same school. Yeah, it can be, but it
could also be two people who know each other but
don't go to the same school. Well then what do
you do. Do You contact the other school and say
your student is harassing a student of another school, So
(30:00):
therefore it's your job to discipline. And I mean, it
gets really muddy, and that's that's part of the reason
why you have this legislation being proposed, because there a
lot of prosecutors feel like there's not a whole lot
of avenues to take in these in these sort of situations.
I mean, there are harassment laws that are out there,
(30:20):
but some of them are difficult to apply using if
the harassment is taking place online. It's just it's it's
hard because the laws were not formed with that in mind,
and therefore there's a debate on whether or not the
laws apply in those cases. Um. And I did see
one comment on a on a thread related to this
(30:42):
that kind of made my eyes open a little bit
because I wasn't thinking of it in those terms. But um,
there it depends on what's said and how it's said.
But you know, there are laws against libel and slander. Um.
And depending on what what's said, how again, how it's done.
You know, there is that case which you could say,
(31:06):
you know, yes, there is illegal grounds under which someone
can be punished, right with slender and libel, You've got that.
That's again another restriction on free speech. Your speech is
not entirely free if what you are doing is spreading
misinformation and lies about someone deliberately, deliberately, right, you you
knowingly are lying about someone's character or their behavior, and
(31:27):
you're doing so as a means of hurting that person.
That speech is not protected under the First Amendment. Um,
hate speech, hate speech as well. Yeah, so you might
also hear about fighting words. It's true you can be
cited by the police for using fighting words. Well, you know,
a lot of people don't understand the difference between a
salt and battery. But AsSalt is you know, I'm going
(31:48):
to kill you, and that you could be charged with
a salt even though you never lay a finger on
the other person, because you were intending to do harm
to that you have to prove I guess that the intent,
which is really trick. But like if you never swung
a fist, then it's gonna be hard for them to
prove that you really did intend that and you weren't
just quote unquote joking. Yeah, but yeah, I mean you
(32:09):
say that your friends, Yeah you do. But yeah, you
had a bat at the time, Yeah you had you
had your eyes were glowing red and there was really
creepy music playing in the background. Um, And you know,
I do have this concern about the legislation that's been
proposed to to prevent cyber bullying or to punish it's
(32:29):
not even to prevent cyber bullying. Really, it's to punish
acts of cyber bulls, right, So this is this is
a reactionary thing, not a proactive thing. It doesn't stop
it from happening in the first place, exactly. So the
damage has already been done. It's just that you're punishing
the people who have committed the act. Now, to me,
I think that's important. I can't say that that's not important.
(32:50):
But to me, what's more important is finding ways to
educate children and even adults really because a lot of
people fall fall into this kind of trap. But to
educate people about respect and compassion and these concepts that
you know, you should extend these to other people because
(33:10):
it's it's going to make everything better. People don't deserve
to have this kind of stuff heaped on them for
the smallest of of what you think of as as
something like you know, like Rebecca Black's video something like
that does not She doesn't deserve getting hate mail and
and and veiled threats or unveiled threats directed at her
(33:30):
for that. Just say, you know the song is is
goofy and leave it at that. And uh. And I
think that what's important is that we've we concentrate on
that front end that we do try and instill in
people a sense that it's important to respect and show
compassion towards others, and that if we follow those those guidelines,
(33:54):
the back end of punishment becomes less important. It still
needs to be there because there's always going to be
people who will always fall to that side. But I
think we need to really concentrate on ways to encourage
the that sort of sense of community and responsibility early on,
(34:14):
and that that's what we're funding needs to go because
otherwise what you're talking about is, yeah, we've got all
this punishment in place, but that's not going to stop
the victims. Like, the victims are still going to be hurt.
And I would rather see us work on ways to
prevent victimization in the first place, right because I'm crazy
like that. Well, you know that that's that's admirable. But
(34:38):
at the same time, you know, I think that a
lot of people are going to want to see something,
you know, what happens when it happens. Anyway, I agree,
and I think that does need to be there. I
just right, I think I don't think it's ever going
to be a deterrent. I think it's only going to
be a punishment, but I think it's still necessary. I
(34:58):
just think that we can not focus on that at
and and then ignore the front end. Right. If we
we just focus on the punishment, then you haven't solved
the problem. You've just created a way of punishing the
people who commit the problem. And same way I think
of pretty much the criminal system in general, is that
if you don't address the underlying reason for why the
(35:20):
crime is happening, you're just going to have a cycle
of crime. And yeah, you have a way of punishing it,
but you don't have a way of preventing it. Right,
And they'll also have to if they ever want to
get something like that passed on a national level. I
think they'll probably need to be very careful how the
bill is written too, because it free speech advocates are
going to say, sure, that's fine, but it's so broad
(35:40):
now you can punish all these other things well, and
which is a legitimate concern. And what would happen with
that is, even if the law were passed, you would
essentially it wouldn't take long before you saw a case
come before the Supreme Court, and then the Supreme Court
would have to rule on whether or not it was truly,
you know, violating the first Amendment of the Constant Ship.
And you know that's a very long and drawn out process.
(36:04):
And in the meantime, you have a law that might
be hurting people almost as much as the actual crime
of cyber bullying is hurting people. It's it's it's a
complicated issue. And so offer constructive criticism, right, constructive criticism.
Try to be a little compassionate about people. That doesn't
mean that you can't say that something is um poorly
(36:27):
written or or poorly done. There's no reason for you
to feel fettered that you you know, you cannot say
that this is a bad work or anything like that.
Just you know, try to keep the personal attacks under control.
I would like to have heard her without auto tune,
just to see what her voice is like. Yeah, on
Good Morning America. She's saying a couple of bars at
(36:48):
the Star Spangled banner, and she had you know, she
could carry a tune like I wouldn't say that she had.
She herself said, I don't think I have the best voice,
but I don't think I have the worst voice either,
And I would agree with that. My voice is certainly
much worse. Um, of course. I I also and there
is a video of me on YouTube singing, so you
(37:08):
shouldn't have said that. Well I already they already know
about it because it's the Evil League of Evil Things.
Part of the part of the audition process was you
had to sing. Uh. And I apologize to the you know,
two dozen of you or whoever you went over and
saw that video. I should have should have warned you beforehand.
That was my fault. Well, they're not around to complain now,
and I'm gonna wrap this up. Well, I'm gonna wrap
(37:29):
this up by just stating one other thing that I
find really uh infuriating about about the American psyche, and
I am also guilty of this. I include myself with this,
which is that we have in America this this uh,
the American myth or the American uh like the underlying
foundation of what we think it is to be American
(37:49):
is that if you work really hard, or you or
you really tried to do something, then uh, you should succeed.
But then at the same time, we have this feeling
that that people who exceeed, we have this need to
tear them down. So we've got folks who will succeed
and and at the first, at one point, you've got
the drive to succeed because culturally, that's what it is
(38:10):
to be American. You want to you want to try,
and whatever your goal is, you want to make sure
you get it because this is America and whatever you
want is possible. But then you get there and then
people start tearing you down. And that's also American, and
that's just insane. It's not just America that does that either.
I know that. But you know when you see that
kind of that, that double edged sword, like succeed succeeds, succeed,
(38:34):
you succeeded, You're a jerk. That's just come on, people,
give me a break. I work hard. Don't tear me
down for working hard. Now. I know we're way over now,
but my my personal thing like that is your your
favorite restaurant on the corner and then and everybody loves him,
and you're enjoying this because hey, they're they're finally getting customers.
(38:55):
Look at this, and then well then you can't get
a table. And then they open one acros us town.
You're like, oh, that's cool, they're expanding, and then they
get three and then all of a sudden It's like
they're on every corner in every place in America. Like man,
that big corporation, right, Yes, they stink or or want
them to support little restaurants or as you know bands. Yes,
(39:15):
the band is cool when no one knows about it,
and then when it becomes a success, they sold out
that that's what I think of his from from my
age group r EM and you two both got that criticism. Well.
To close out, I just gotta say, Chris, I'm glad
that it's Friday Friday. I'm going to have fun, fun, fun, fun,
(39:37):
and uh, if you guys want to have some fun,
you can interact with us. We promise we will make
it fun. You can let us know on Twitter or
Facebook or handle There is tech Stuff hs W, or
you can shoot us an email that addresses tech stuff
at how stuff works dot com. Chris and I will
talk to you again really soon. For more on this
(39:58):
and thousands of other topics. Is the House to works
dot com. To learn more about the podcast, click on
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Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.
It's ready. Are you get in touch with technology? With
tech Stuff from how stuff works dot com. Hello again, everyone,
Welcome to tech stuff. My name is Chris Poulette and
I am an editor at how stuff works dot com.
(00:22):
Sitting across from me as always a senior writer, Jonathan Strickland.
I want my two dollars. I haven't thought about that
in a long time. Actually, I accorded from that movie
not too long ago. But you know what, it's a
good one. Not sense then, not sense then. So today
we're actually gonna tackle a pretty serious subject, but it's
it's one that has had a lot of attention recently
(00:45):
for various reasons. Um, we're gonna talk about cyber bullying,
and this kind of relates to a previous episode we
recorded a couple of years ago, the about internet trolls, right,
controlls work, cyber bullying being a sort of a specific
type of internet troll. Yeah, yeah, And um, I think
(01:06):
it's kind of interesting we're gonna have to people will
ask about this. Cyber bullying in a lot of ways
is not especially different in character from Frankly bullying in person.
It's just using the tools of the internet. You know,
now that we have the ability to publish instantly and frequently. Um,
(01:28):
you know, people use those tools to pick on others. Yeah,
and uh, and we've been seeing a lot of this
in the news, uh, from like I said, from various sources,
over various um activities, you know, things that have happened recently.
But the one that kind of spurred this, at least
from my perspective, was the whole Rebecca Black phenomenon train wreck,
(01:54):
however you want to call it. Right, So, for the
few of you out there who may not have heard
of who of Rebecca Black? I suspect most of you
probably have. Rebecca Black is a thirteen year old girl
who received an amazing gift her mom um paid for
her to have a music video done. And it's a
(02:17):
The song is called Friday and let's just get this
all of the way. It is not a good song.
It is very let's let's the lyrics are banal, would
you yes? The tune itself is pretty catchy, you know
it's it's it's one of those that's that's been engineered
to get stuck in your head and stay there until
(02:38):
you start to go crazy. But Rebecca Black did not
write the song but not but she did. She did
perform it, and the song features her voice being auto
tuned to the point where it sounds almost robotic and
um and like I said, the lyrics are really really boring,
but not really that's not really here nor there. She
(02:59):
uploaded the video to YouTube and then, um, I think
it was on like February tenth, two thousand eleven that
she uploaded it to YouTube, and it took about a week.
But then people started to to share this video and
it went totally viral, and before you knew it, there
were thousands and thousands of views of this video. Yeah.
(03:20):
I had read an article in preparation on Mashable by
Todd Wasserman who was basically charting it. And yes, you
know February tenth, this when it was initially published. Uh
you remember Michael J. Nelson, don't you? Yes? Yes, of
Mystery Science Theater three thousand and tracks fame. Um. He
tweeted about it on his Twitter account to he's got
(03:44):
According to Wasserman, more than nineteen thousand followers, probably had more.
I didn't actually look this morning right before we decided
to do this podcast, but um basically said, you know,
this is a catchy song, but it also answers the
question what's the worst video ever made? It's a quote
from that and and of course when someone who is
(04:05):
got that level of followers, you know, you're it's going
to attract attention. And that's around the time that it
started picking up, and that was in March. So really,
I should also point out that I think Total Eclipse
of the Heart still gives it a run for the
money as total worst video ever made. But anyway, I'm
not fond of the song to begin with, let alone
the video turn around Bright Eyes the uh. At the
(04:28):
time of the recording of this podcast, which is in
late March right now, according to YouTube, the video has
had forty seven million, seventy six thousand, three hundred four views.
Oh there's another one. Yeah, And and we should also
add that YouTube does not update these in real time,
that the numbers update to a schedule that makes sense
(04:52):
to YouTube basically in batches. Yeah, so so it could
be that that number is, of course not entirely accurate.
Even as I'm saying this right now into the microphone.
Of course, will not be accurate by the time you
hear this podcast, so million views, that's a lot. I mean,
that's an incredible And the song is actually on iTunes
(05:12):
as well. You can purchase the song on iTunes, and
a lot of people have done that, and you could
argue that maybe it's in a sense of irony, they're
they're ordering it because they think it's so bad. It's
it's funny, and therefore they're going to get the song.
Some people may legitimately like the song, although they may
also say that it's a terrible song. Personally, Like I said,
(05:32):
I think the tune is kind of catchy. I think
the the the lyrics again are so ridiculously plain, Like
it's just it's explaining such a mundane experience that you know,
you can't help but think, wow, this is kind of
this is really ridiculous, right in a nutshell. It's Friday,
and she's happy about that because it means it's the weekend.
(05:53):
It's the weekend. And I think it's when you hear
that Sunday comes afterward. That was the point where I
was like, really, I mean, just the going down and
have to get a bowl, have to eat your serial
that was That was a little rough too. But here's
here's where we're leading with this. This video has prompted
a lot of people to leave extremely negative comments on
(06:15):
the YouTube video. Now I would not I don't argue
that leaving a negative comment for a bad video and
saying like, wow, this was a really dumb song or
this was a really dumb video. That's one thing. Yeah, yeah,
I want to point out it may sound since we're
both kind of negative on the song. I don't want
to give anyone the wrong impression and think that we
(06:36):
are are anti Rebecca Black or the songwriter, or or
anyone involved with it. I mean, it's, uh, you know,
everyone involved is making an attempt to entertain people, and
you could say that it was, you know, an unsuccessful attempt,
or at least it wasn't successful in the way they
had intended. Right, Even even star musicians can write yeah,
(07:00):
it's not And I'm certainly you know you have the
old the old saying well, let's see you try it. Well,
you know, I haven't ever written a song, so I
can't really talk. And you know what, there's some bad
songs out there that have become incredibly popular and became standards.
Someone left the Cake out in the Rain. I'm just saying,
if you look at the lyrics to MacArthur Park, it
(07:21):
is the dumbest song. I mean, it's dumber than Friday.
People seriously read the lyrics. So yeah, we're not angry
at at anyone involved with the project, right, But the
point being that there have been a lot of people
who have left comments that were directed personally at Rebecca Black.
So we're not talking about people who are criticizing the
song or criticizing the video or saying that, you know,
(07:41):
the subject matter is ridiculous. We're talking about people who
are directing personal attacks at Rebecca Black to the point
of saying that you are stupid, or you are ugly,
or you know, uh, you know, things like that, things
that have nothing to do with the actual subject matter
but are more of a personal nature that I think
constitute cyber bullying. You know, it's it's it's harassing someone
(08:05):
directly well as a matter of fact. Um she she
came out in an interview not terribly long ago and
uh said, and I quote at times, it feels like
I'm being cyber bullied end quote, which um, I actually
found that in an article in Time magazine online by
(08:28):
hands Villa Rica and UM basically he uh was was
saying that this isn't helping her case because she's drawing
attention to the fact that she's being attacked and for
some people that leave them to UM. But in that article,
um Hans also mentioned that UM he had spoken with
(08:52):
Karen Slovak in Ohio University professor UM and she basically
said that cyber bullying is it doesn't really fit this
what is going on with Rebecca Black necessarily, although it
may she may change her mind. Now this was done
uh several days ago, probably about a week and a
(09:13):
half ago by the time we're recording this, so UM,
you know what what she said was that cyber bulling
has done over time, like it's consistently applied. It's not
one personal attack. If somebody attacks you, that's not bullying,
is what she's saying. Bullying is something that you know,
the big kid comes up and asks you for your
lunch money every day, So yeah, I got you. So
(09:34):
it's it's repeated and it's yes, over it got you.
But at this point you might argue that by now,
now that it's been several weeks and it's still going
on that it is it has graduated to actual cyber bullying. Um,
but yeah, they they He spoke to several experts about
it and said, um, you know, yeah, it may not
(09:55):
necessarily be cyber bullying, but it is definitely a personal attack,
and uh know it's it's painful to the person being attacked. Ye,
and she has said as much. Chris and I have
talked offline about how sometimes you know, we get negative reviews,
and that's legitimate. You know, if people don't like what
we do, then I I don't think there's any reason
(10:16):
why they shouldn't say so, or why they cannot offer
criticisms or anything like that. But occasionally we get uh
personal attack comments, things that things that are not criticisms
or helpful in any way. They're just you know, you're
stupid or something like that. And that hurts, you know,
even even as a grown adult. You know, there's there's
(10:37):
an element, there's an emotional element there. And yeah, I
don't even know this person as far as I know.
This person could be uh like the person who directs
an attack towards me, maybe someone who I would never
care for or respect in person if I met them.
But that's beside the point that you don't. It doesn't
feel good to get that kind of stuff, and if
you get enough of it, it could really affect yourself image. Now, fortunately,
(10:59):
with the the case of Rebecca Black, it appears that
she's got a pretty level head on her, which that's
amazing because she's thirteen. When I was thirteen, I did
not have a level head. Um, technically I don't right now.
It's kind of rounded. But anyway, the uh no, it's
when you're when you're thirteen. Sorry, I'm interacted. I was
going to say that that's you know, that's a a
(11:22):
troublesome time. You're going through a lot of changes in
your life. Um, you know, starting to come into your
own as an adult, and you know the the opinion
of your peers is very important to you. Yeah, and
we have a lot of listeners who are in that
age range twelve to uh to sixteen. So imagine having
literally thousands of people saying that you are not worth anything.
(11:43):
So there were I remember Rebecca Black did an interview
with Good Morning America in which she said that there
were people leaving comments saying things like you should starve yourself,
you're too fat, or you should cut yourself or things
like that. I mean people saying that you should harm yourself,
that that's me. That's a threat, is really what that
comes down to. It may not be a threat that
(12:04):
anyone's going to act on, but you get enough of those,
and that's really gonna affect yourself worth if you aren't careful.
And like I said, apparently, uh, Rebecca Black has a
very good um um. She she's she's comfortable with herself
enough where that's not affecting her um. And she says
that she no longer is paying attention to the negative reviews,
which is helping a lot. And she's also taking steps.
(12:27):
I mean, she's making some serious money off of this
this music video, and that's of course fueling more people
to even up the ante and talking about how ridiculous
it is, how terrible it is. But the fact is
is that at least on one one analyst I saw
said that they had projected she would make around twenty
thousand dollars off iTunes and another twenty five thousand off YouTube.
(12:49):
I might have those mixed up, um, And that was
just one analyst, so it may be that it could
be more than that. Rebecca Black by the Way has
also said that she's going to donate some of her
proceedings to uh to relief efforts for the victims of
the Japan earthquake and tsunami, and that she's also donating
some of the money to her own school. I think
(13:09):
that's remarkable, you know, it's an amazing thing. So considering
the storm she weathered, I think that she's she's behaved admirably.
Now to get back to the people who are directing
these attacks. The internet is a weird thing. Uh. We
see there are cases of bandwagons that go for or
(13:30):
against certain causes, and sometimes it doesn't make much sense,
but you'll see that that they'll become there'll be this
sort of groundswelling of support for or against certain people. Uh.
And sometimes it's a great thing. So for example, in
the case of of Katie Goldman, Katie Goldman was the
(13:53):
young girl who loved Star Wars and she would but
she was getting teased when she would go to school
because she had a little Star our Wars backpack and
Star Wars lunch box and things, and she was told
by the boys that Star Wars is something that boys like,
not what girls like. And she she felt she felt
a lot of pressure from her peers and that that
(14:13):
she was doing something wrong and she would actually she
came to her mom and said that she wanted like
a pink lunch box, something that didn't have Star Wars
on it, because she didn't want to be teased anymore. Well,
there was this huge ground swelling of support amongst the
internet because first of all, a lot of us are geeks.
I incured myself, and we think there's nothing wrong with
being a geek. And I agree, there's nothing wrong with that.
(14:34):
And so a lot of people through support at this
young girl. She received tons of gifts from people, She
received messages from folks who have been in Star Wars
property projects. I mean, she she got a lot of support,
and it was really heartwarming to see that, Like this
is a This is a bunch of people saying, no,
it's good, you should be who you are. That's okay,
(14:57):
don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Then you see this
Rebecca Black video come out, and you see kind of
the opposite. You see all these people piling on saying
you're terrible, why are you doing this? Your music is horrible,
You're not worth anything, and it I can't help, but
suspect that there's at least some overlap that some of
the people who piled on Rebecca Black were the same
(15:17):
ones who thought you go girl for Kitty Coldman. And
the hypocrisy there is kind of amazing. Why should Kitty
Goldman be proud of who she is but Rebecca Black
be ashamed of who she is? Right, that's a mixed message.
So that again is what spurred the whole cyber bullying story. Now,
the actual stories about cyber bullying go well beyond Rebecca Black, Right,
(15:40):
we have had a lot of different stories come out
in the news about particularly about teenagers who have either
committed suicide or attempted suicide. And and at least part
of the reason for that that horrible decision, uh stemmed
from cyber bullying online and uh and and that's just
(16:03):
it's it's so unthinkably terrible to me that that people
online can feel the freedom to criticize or bully other folks.
I think part of it is that when you're online,
if you're the attacker, you kind of feel a sense
of distance, like the words you're saying don't really impact anything,
(16:23):
because you're not really telling the person to their face.
You're telling a website or you're telling a screen these things, right, Well,
a lot of people wouldn't have the courage to go
up to that person or yeah, or even if it's
not courage, I mean, yes, I think that's a that's
that's definitely a legitimate point. But there's some people who
(16:45):
if you were to present them with a computer screen
or the actual person and you know, whatever it was
that triggered that that comment, if the person were there,
it wouldn't necessarily even be a matter of courage. It's
that that cultural pressure of saying, no, you don't say
that to a person. That's just wrong. You wouldn't come
up to a person and say, you know, you're you're
ugly or you're fat or whatever. I mean some people would,
(17:07):
but well most people would not. But then you show
them on a screen. You've got that level of distance there,
and suddenly that some of those those cultural barriers that
would prevent you from doing such a thing in person
are gone, and you don't feel restrained, so you start
doing But the problem is that those words still hurt
when you read them, right, Yeah, I was just thinking too.
(17:30):
Another thing that you have sort of spurring this along too,
is maybe you're you've decided somebody mentioned the video to
You've gone to YouTube, and now all of a sudden
you can read all the other people who are attacking
her for the quality of the song and of the video,
and you go, you know what, this does stink? And
(17:51):
you know, and look at her, look at her, You're
gonna weigh in, Yeah, exactly, or so it's a it's
a mob mentality exactly online and you get you get
that that thing. You know. You might think, oh, I've
got this great, great snappy bar, but then I want
to throw in there. And you're doing it as part
of a mask conversation, right, You're not necessarily thinking I'm
directing this at someone. I'm just I got this funny
(18:13):
thing that's really really sharp and cruel and acidic, and
it's gonna be awesome and people are gonna laugh, not
thinking ultimately the target of this is a thirteen year
old girl. So um, yeah, there's a lot of those
elements there. So and this is kind of again like
armchair psychology and armchair sociology, but there have been several
(18:36):
studies about cyber bullying. There's actually a I found a
document called cyber Bullying Research Summary cyber Bullying and Suicide,
which was very disturbing to me. And in the highlights
from the research section, the report says that they surveyed
students who are are young people who had been um
(18:58):
active online and tried to determine, you know, how many
of them had admitted to either considering or even attempting suicide,
how many of them had been victims of bullying, how
many of them have been victims of cyber bullying specifically. Well,
the highlights from the survey said that of all the
respondents reported seriously thinking about attempting suicide, so that was
(19:23):
disturbing on its own, and then that all forms of
bullying were significantly associated with increases in suicidal ideation. So
in other words, UH, the people who had seriously considered
attempting suicide, more of them had been victims of bullying
than otherwise, right, And that cyber bullying victims were almost
(19:44):
twice as likely to have attempted suicide compared to youth
who had not experienced cyber bullying. So the survey at
least suggests that they and this was around two thousand
randomly selected UH students from middle school age. So two
thousand people, that's a decent size, right, That's that's a
(20:06):
it's not a you know, you couldn't call it definitive
or anything, but it's it's a good size for a study. Um,
that suggests that there is a definite link to cyber
bullying and your sense of self worth as well as
your likelihood to consider suicide. So those words really do count.
I mean, we we've all heard the little rhyme of
(20:28):
sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can
never hurt me. That's not really true. Those words can
be really, really impactful. And because of that, and because
of the attention on recent cases of tragic suicides and
and cyber bullying in particular, there's been a lot of
uh proposed legislation in both state and federal venues to
(20:54):
ban cyber bullying or to punish cyber bullying. Probably probably
the most notable case of cyber bullying that has um
led to these efforts, these legislative efforts was Megan Meyer. Um.
It was very very well known. Yeah, I but I
believe we talked about her in the troll episode. I
(21:14):
believe I'm thinking so too. Um and Jonathan wrote a
post on it back on Mail eleven, two thousand nine
called Internet trolls come under Fire. UM, And at that
point we were talking about legislation. UM. But what had
happened Megan Meyer was had a friend who lived just
(21:35):
four houses away from her and UM, the other girl's mother,
and she basically had decided that they were growing apart.
Apparently the two girls were growing apart, and they were
concerned that Megan might have been telling stories about her,
so they decided to get back at Megan. Yeah, they
(21:55):
were trying to apparently trying to figure out what was
being said, seeing if there was a way to win
her trust through another method to uh, to see if
they can figure out what she was saying about the
other girl and and you know, possibly do a little
punishment to UM. I think I think from what I've read,
I think it sort of went awry because they had
(22:17):
a family friend who has said that she was the
one who came up with the idea to do this.
They created a fake uh persona on my Space UM
and befriended Megan Meyer. Yeah. It was It was a
boy and it was showing interest in Megan Meyers. So
you've already got that romantic, you know, and they picked
they picked a picture that was a very good looking
(22:37):
young man. Yeah. So you know, think about you are
a teenager, you're you know, you might have some insecurities,
and then you have this good looking person suddenly showing
an interest in you. I mean that that makes you
feel good, right, And they did start up a virtual
friendship with this this fake persona and this real girl,
(22:59):
and then they they began using the persona to make
personal attacks on Megan. Yeah. They they first won her
trust and then they started to use it to criticize her,
to insult her, uh and to belittle her. Um. And
so eventually, uh, she decided to hang herself because she
(23:23):
was very upset about some of the things that that
were said. And the mother, Laurie Drew Um, was charged
on several counts UM. But the case really sort of
came down to whether or not violating the terms of
service of my Space UM was illegal action. Yeah, because
(23:44):
they're they're at that point, were no cyber bullying laws
I don't think anywhere on the books. UM. And that
was the thing was they didn't really have anything to
charge them with. There was you know, what do you do?
It's like people wanted to punish them, and there wasn't
anything to punish them with, right, So that that definitely
gave rise to this, uh, this movement to try and
(24:05):
find a way to deal with cyber bullying in a
legal aspect of legal way and and there are a
lot of states that have been trying at Louisiana proposed
a cyber bullying bill that would make harassment on text
messages or through sites like Facebook illegal. Arkansas as well.
(24:25):
There's a lot of states that have actually proposed legislation.
And here's where we're going to transfer into a different
kind of conversation. I'm personally a little nervous about cyber
bullying legislation. And here's why. There's a very delicate line
you need to walk in this because on the one hand, yes,
(24:49):
you want to make sure that that there is some
way to uh to legally pursue UH punishment against people
who are are legitimately causing injury and harm to other people,
whether it's through cyber bullying or other means. Right, otherwise
you don't have you know, society breaks down if you
(25:09):
don't have that kind of stuff. But on the flip side,
you want to make sure that you do so in
a way that does not infringe upon people's First Amendment rights.
And so where is that line, Where does the line
go from this is cyber bullying. Uh, And on the
other side, this is a criticism or this is a
commentary that is legitimate in nature. And and that's gonna
(25:32):
be a very difficult thing to do. It's kind of
like saying what is art versus what is not art.
It really becomes a subjective issue. And I think judges
in the in the states where the this this, these
proposed bills become actual legislation, are going to have a
really challenging time determining in individual cases which things are
(25:54):
you know, which things constitute actual cyber bullying versus expressing
your opinion, you know, under the rights of free speech.
Now we must keep in mind, of course, free speech
is not unfettered right. You know, it's not truly free
in that there are limitations. It was Oliver Wendell Holmes
who said the right to swing my fist ends at
(26:14):
the other man's nose. Uh. That being said, you know,
you can't you cannot, uh, you cannot expect to have
complete freedom of speech because there are certain things you
cannot do. The famous example being don't yell fire in
a crowded theater. UH. The idea thing that you create
a panic and thus people can come to harm. So
(26:36):
the argument is that those people's right to an expectation
of safety overrides your right to yell something that's not true. UM.
Yes and um uh. Representative head her name right here,
Linda T. Sanchez has tried a couple of times to
introduce federal legislation UH in the House of Representatives. UM.
(27:00):
And in that that particular piece of legislation, which is
aimed to amends Title eighteen of the United States Code,
UM would define it makes a definition of cyber bullying
UM and I'll quote any communication with the intent to coerce, intimidate, harass,
or cause substantial emotional distress to a person using electronic
(27:21):
means to support severe, repeated and hostile behavior end quote
UM and and in that case, it was introduced in
the Congress in the United States UM on July th eight.
It was referred to a House subcommittee and then referred
to the Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism and Homeland Security, and
it basically died. Uh. She tried again in the Congress UM.
(27:47):
On April second, two thousand nine, it was referred to
the House Committee on the Judiciary and again to the
Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism and Homeland Security on on September
two thousand nine, there were hearings hell but again it's
it is stalled and there's there's nothing going on now.
I've seen a lot too about bullying in general, not
(28:10):
just cyber bullying, but bullying in general UM at schools
on TV. I know, I've seen lots and lots of
public service announcement. There's there's the entire it Gets Better
routine that UM for for for people, young people who
realize that that they're gay and that they are receiving
(28:32):
lots of bullying and pressure from other people because of
their identity, or they feel like they can't be who
they really are because there's this pressure around them, and
that as a result, their their sense of self worth
declines over time and they begin to consider attempting suicide
or or or having other really negative impacts on their lives.
(28:56):
We've seen a lot of the p s a s
that come out and say, look, you know, I know
that this part of your life is terrible and that
it feels like it's never going to end, but it
does get better. So yeah, I mean there's been a
lot of attention on a national and even global level
to this kind of of thing. And and I know
there have been uh principles, school principles who've been pressured
(29:18):
to do things. But part of the problem is that,
you know, this is cyber bullying. A lot of it
is not taking place in school. And even though for example,
was limited to two people, two kids, the bullier and
the bullied, Uh, if it's happening at eight o'clock at
night after school, there's really nothing the principle can do
(29:39):
about it. And because I mean legally, because we're talking
about the internet, it wouldn't even necessarily be two people
in the same school. Yeah, it can be, but it
could also be two people who know each other but
don't go to the same school. Well then what do
you do. Do You contact the other school and say
your student is harassing a student of another school, So
(30:00):
therefore it's your job to discipline. And I mean, it
gets really muddy, and that's that's part of the reason
why you have this legislation being proposed, because there a
lot of prosecutors feel like there's not a whole lot
of avenues to take in these in these sort of situations.
I mean, there are harassment laws that are out there,
(30:20):
but some of them are difficult to apply using if
the harassment is taking place online. It's just it's it's
hard because the laws were not formed with that in mind,
and therefore there's a debate on whether or not the
laws apply in those cases. Um. And I did see
one comment on a on a thread related to this
(30:42):
that kind of made my eyes open a little bit
because I wasn't thinking of it in those terms. But um,
there it depends on what's said and how it's said.
But you know, there are laws against libel and slander. Um.
And depending on what what's said, how again, how it's done.
You know, there is that case which you could say,
(31:06):
you know, yes, there is illegal grounds under which someone
can be punished, right with slender and libel, You've got that.
That's again another restriction on free speech. Your speech is
not entirely free if what you are doing is spreading
misinformation and lies about someone deliberately, deliberately, right, you you
knowingly are lying about someone's character or their behavior, and
(31:27):
you're doing so as a means of hurting that person.
That speech is not protected under the First Amendment. Um,
hate speech, hate speech as well. Yeah, so you might
also hear about fighting words. It's true you can be
cited by the police for using fighting words. Well, you know,
a lot of people don't understand the difference between a
salt and battery. But AsSalt is you know, I'm going
(31:48):
to kill you, and that you could be charged with
a salt even though you never lay a finger on
the other person, because you were intending to do harm
to that you have to prove I guess that the intent,
which is really trick. But like if you never swung
a fist, then it's gonna be hard for them to
prove that you really did intend that and you weren't
just quote unquote joking. Yeah, but yeah, I mean you
(32:09):
say that your friends, Yeah you do. But yeah, you
had a bat at the time, Yeah you had you
had your eyes were glowing red and there was really
creepy music playing in the background. Um, And you know,
I do have this concern about the legislation that's been
proposed to to prevent cyber bullying or to punish it's
(32:29):
not even to prevent cyber bullying. Really, it's to punish
acts of cyber bulls, right, So this is this is
a reactionary thing, not a proactive thing. It doesn't stop
it from happening in the first place, exactly. So the
damage has already been done. It's just that you're punishing
the people who have committed the act. Now, to me,
I think that's important. I can't say that that's not important.
(32:50):
But to me, what's more important is finding ways to
educate children and even adults really because a lot of
people fall fall into this kind of trap. But to
educate people about respect and compassion and these concepts that
you know, you should extend these to other people because
(33:10):
it's it's going to make everything better. People don't deserve
to have this kind of stuff heaped on them for
the smallest of of what you think of as as
something like you know, like Rebecca Black's video something like
that does not She doesn't deserve getting hate mail and
and and veiled threats or unveiled threats directed at her
(33:30):
for that. Just say, you know the song is is
goofy and leave it at that. And uh. And I
think that what's important is that we've we concentrate on
that front end that we do try and instill in
people a sense that it's important to respect and show
compassion towards others, and that if we follow those those guidelines,
(33:54):
the back end of punishment becomes less important. It still
needs to be there because there's always going to be
people who will always fall to that side. But I
think we need to really concentrate on ways to encourage
the that sort of sense of community and responsibility early on,
(34:14):
and that that's what we're funding needs to go because
otherwise what you're talking about is, yeah, we've got all
this punishment in place, but that's not going to stop
the victims. Like, the victims are still going to be hurt.
And I would rather see us work on ways to
prevent victimization in the first place, right because I'm crazy
like that. Well, you know that that's that's admirable. But
(34:38):
at the same time, you know, I think that a
lot of people are going to want to see something,
you know, what happens when it happens. Anyway, I agree,
and I think that does need to be there. I
just right, I think I don't think it's ever going
to be a deterrent. I think it's only going to
be a punishment, but I think it's still necessary. I
(34:58):
just think that we can not focus on that at
and and then ignore the front end. Right. If we
we just focus on the punishment, then you haven't solved
the problem. You've just created a way of punishing the
people who commit the problem. And same way I think
of pretty much the criminal system in general, is that
if you don't address the underlying reason for why the
(35:20):
crime is happening, you're just going to have a cycle
of crime. And yeah, you have a way of punishing it,
but you don't have a way of preventing it. Right,
And they'll also have to if they ever want to
get something like that passed on a national level. I
think they'll probably need to be very careful how the
bill is written too, because it free speech advocates are
going to say, sure, that's fine, but it's so broad
(35:40):
now you can punish all these other things well, and
which is a legitimate concern. And what would happen with
that is, even if the law were passed, you would
essentially it wouldn't take long before you saw a case
come before the Supreme Court, and then the Supreme Court
would have to rule on whether or not it was truly,
you know, violating the first Amendment of the Constant Ship.
And you know that's a very long and drawn out process.
(36:04):
And in the meantime, you have a law that might
be hurting people almost as much as the actual crime
of cyber bullying is hurting people. It's it's it's a
complicated issue. And so offer constructive criticism, right, constructive criticism.
Try to be a little compassionate about people. That doesn't
mean that you can't say that something is um poorly
(36:27):
written or or poorly done. There's no reason for you
to feel fettered that you you know, you cannot say
that this is a bad work or anything like that.
Just you know, try to keep the personal attacks under control.
I would like to have heard her without auto tune,
just to see what her voice is like. Yeah, on
Good Morning America. She's saying a couple of bars at
(36:48):
the Star Spangled banner, and she had you know, she
could carry a tune like I wouldn't say that she had.
She herself said, I don't think I have the best voice,
but I don't think I have the worst voice either,
And I would agree with that. My voice is certainly
much worse. Um, of course. I I also and there
is a video of me on YouTube singing, so you
(37:08):
shouldn't have said that. Well I already they already know
about it because it's the Evil League of Evil Things.
Part of the part of the audition process was you
had to sing. Uh. And I apologize to the you know,
two dozen of you or whoever you went over and
saw that video. I should have should have warned you beforehand.
That was my fault. Well, they're not around to complain now,
and I'm gonna wrap this up. Well, I'm gonna wrap
(37:29):
this up by just stating one other thing that I
find really uh infuriating about about the American psyche, and
I am also guilty of this. I include myself with this,
which is that we have in America this this uh,
the American myth or the American uh like the underlying
foundation of what we think it is to be American
(37:49):
is that if you work really hard, or you or
you really tried to do something, then uh, you should succeed.
But then at the same time, we have this feeling
that that people who exceeed, we have this need to
tear them down. So we've got folks who will succeed
and and at the first, at one point, you've got
the drive to succeed because culturally, that's what it is
(38:10):
to be American. You want to you want to try,
and whatever your goal is, you want to make sure
you get it because this is America and whatever you
want is possible. But then you get there and then
people start tearing you down. And that's also American, and
that's just insane. It's not just America that does that either.
I know that. But you know when you see that
kind of that, that double edged sword, like succeed succeeds, succeed,
(38:34):
you succeeded, You're a jerk. That's just come on, people,
give me a break. I work hard. Don't tear me
down for working hard. Now. I know we're way over now,
but my my personal thing like that is your your
favorite restaurant on the corner and then and everybody loves him,
and you're enjoying this because hey, they're they're finally getting customers.
(38:55):
Look at this, and then well then you can't get
a table. And then they open one acros us town.
You're like, oh, that's cool, they're expanding, and then they
get three and then all of a sudden It's like
they're on every corner in every place in America. Like man,
that big corporation, right, Yes, they stink or or want
them to support little restaurants or as you know bands. Yes,
(39:15):
the band is cool when no one knows about it,
and then when it becomes a success, they sold out
that that's what I think of his from from my
age group r EM and you two both got that criticism. Well.
To close out, I just gotta say, Chris, I'm glad
that it's Friday Friday. I'm going to have fun, fun, fun, fun,
(39:37):
and uh, if you guys want to have some fun,
you can interact with us. We promise we will make
it fun. You can let us know on Twitter or
Facebook or handle There is tech Stuff hs W, or
you can shoot us an email that addresses tech stuff
at how stuff works dot com. Chris and I will
talk to you again really soon. For more on this
(39:58):
and thousands of other topics. Is the House to works
dot com. To learn more about the podcast, click on
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