Chicago

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women and um are all their discussions just boyfriends and
husbands or do they have individualism the patriarchy? Zef and
best start changing it with the Bell Cast. Hey, Jamie,
Hey Caitlin, you know how we are both in jail

(00:23):
right now for murdering our lovers classic us. Yes, well,
here's what I'm thinking when we get exonerated, because we're
so hot, We're so sexy and peregantinette. Yeah exactly, So
when we get exonerated, would you like to start a

(00:44):
podcast together? Oh my god, can you imagine a Villa Mkelly,
Roxy Heart Puck. Okay, that is like the best worst
basic cable sitcom reboot I've ever heard of in my life. Like,
oh my god, yes you're the answer to your question
is yes, yes, amazing. That Wait so horrible. Wait who

(01:07):
would they cast as Vilma, Kelly and Roxy Heart doing
a murder punk? Oh my god, they'd be like Kristen
Ritter and Kristen Bell are Roxy and Velma and oh
my gosh, sign me up. Honestly, CBS call me. I've

(01:28):
got the worst idea ever. Oh my god, it would
be on CBS and there would be like laugh tracks
and stuff. Yeah, oh my god, it would be an
absolute nightmare and millions of people would watch. It would
be America's number one show. Anyway. Hello, and welcome to
the Beckel Cast. Jamie. It's your birthday episode day. Happy birthday, Jamie.

(01:52):
Thank you so much. Uh yeah, I um, I can't
believe it. Another year, another year has past. I've spent
half of my twenties on this podcast. Wow Fully, we're
coming up on the five year anniversary. We are, which
means I've spent half of my thirties on this podcast.
It's I mean, we look at God. Look at God.

(02:17):
When God invented podcasting, she really had us in mind.
Thank you. Thank you for the birthday wishes. On the
actual day of my birthday when this comes out, I'll
be in Boston. I think that I'll buy I'll do
I'll do the Jamie Classic Boston Special, which is that
I will get a large cold brew, drink the whole thing.

(02:40):
Then I will go to a bar and have a beer,
and then they'll cancel each other out and I'll be
kind of tired, and then I'll do the same thing again,
and then I'll sleep for twelve hours. I think that's
probably gonna be how I spent my birthday. I did
that for so like, why live your life like that?
But that's what I did. I mean, it's your life,

(03:01):
your choice. I'm just sad that I'm not there to
spend it with you because I'm still in l A.
I would, oh my god, I would peel all of
my skin off to be back in l A. But
you know what I love. I love Boston, I love
my family, So it's fine. Yeah, so so no, I
I'm so excited to finally be covering a movie that

(03:23):
I feel like we were okay. So we're covering Chicago
two thousand two, a modern classic, one of my favorites,
and I feel like we were originally putting off covering
this movie because we wanted to do a live show
in Chicago and cover Chicago. Was that the reason? I
believe so well, So, with all due respect to Chicago,

(03:45):
I could not wait any longer. I couldn't. I couldn't
wait another second. And uh, you know the way things
are going right now, who knows when we will be
performing regularly again. So we're doing Chicago and I'm so
oh my god. I okay, I can we can we like? Well, wait,
this is a main feat episode. Okay, so this is

(04:06):
the Bechtel cast. This is our It's my birthday. I
don't have to be good at my job today. Do
you want to take a load off and let me
do this so you can just sit back and relax
on your birthday? Oh my god, I'm going to have
a sip of lean in food Google's Summer Shandy. Oh yummy,
take a swig, and I will tell the listeners that

(04:28):
what is the show again? We examine movies through an
intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechtel test simply as a
jumping off point, which is of course a media metric
created by cartoonist Alison Bechtel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace
test that requires for our specific purposes, because we've made

(04:51):
some slight variations to the test here and there. Our
version is due two people of any marginalized gender, how
of names, They have to speak to each other about
something other than a man, for what is hopefully a
meaningful conversation in the movie or work of fiction. Right

(05:12):
and boy is Chicago an incredible movie? To cover? For
these purposes, they are talking about. I feel like, you know,
we we've been adding asterisks to this test. I feel
like this asterisk canonically on this show may already exist
that if you're talking about murdering a man who's an asshole,
it's it's actually as that does pass the test. I

(05:34):
agree this, not that we are condoning murdering men, but
like in the fictional space, it's cathartic. Okay there. This
movie gets me so fucking pumped for what I don't know,

(05:55):
but it basically just like any time I think about
this movie, I then have to draw everything and listen
to the soundtrack and like go on like a three
mile walk and just be like, wow, how did they
do this? How did this come together? It doesn't sound
like it should work, but it does, but it does.
It's so good. Would you say that this movie gets
you jazzed? It it gets me so fucking hyped. And

(06:21):
this is the kind of movie I feel like this
really um defines what makes a movie fun. Is that
you know, like when you're I don't know, when you
really love a movie, you like picture yourself as all
of the different characters, or like one specific character where
you're like that one's me in Chicago. I picture being

(06:41):
all of the characters like you're just like You've got
your days where you're like I'm being I'm being such
an amos today, I'm just getting run over. You have
your roxy days where you're like, I am just like
living on another planet and I'm not connected with reality
at this time. Then some days you're just hot and
your Velma Ellie and you're and then some days you're

(07:02):
Billy Flynn and you're in you're feeling sneaky, and it's
just I love this movie. I love all the characters.
They're all terrible people. They're all the worst, and I
really like when oh, I'm sorry, I'm just like Jamie,
it's your birthday, it's my birth it's my birthday. I
really enjoy movies. I'm trying to think of other movies

(07:23):
that kind of take this tech movies that are like
really fun and high energy but also have a pretty
low opinion of humanity. I love movies like that. And
this is like this, like it's like scratches that little
spot behind my ear. It's so good. That is like
Titania kind of like man, it kind of like goes

(07:43):
in there too. There there's a little more empathy at
play in that movie than there is here. I mean,
everyone in Chicago is a nightmare. They're they're all so bad,
but you like understand, I don't know, I just love it.
But I'm rooting for all of them. Honestly, why am I? Yeah,
that's the other thing, Like, why am I root for
these motherfucker's They're just they're all except with and I

(08:04):
do kind of like, I don't know, I'm just going
to make a million exceptions for this movie because I
don't like when the only like truly, like, oh, unquestionably
sympathetic character is some guy. But for some reason, when
it's Chicago and it's John c Riley, I'm like, whatever,
whatever his performance and Mr Cellophane even I'm gonna argue

(08:25):
with that, no way, no way, it's too good. I
think you could also make the argument that he's not
that sympathetic or redeemable. I'm not saying he's a great guy.
I'm saying that it's it's very easy to feel for
his predicament to be kind of someone who is not
equipped to handle a situation that includes scrutiny, nuance, or

(08:50):
public attention. But yeah, I mean no, everyone in this
movie in this story like sucks to some degree, except
for vill m Kelly, who I think is kind of
above criticism. Um. But also but like, I don't mean that.
Also Christine Barrand amazing. She's so good. She's just oh

(09:12):
my god, this is I and sorry to all the
Mamma Mia heads out there, but this is Christine Baranski's
best musical movie. Sorry, which she has a tiny line,
a few tiny lines here and there in the song
about they both reached for the gun. But other than that,
I don't think we see her sing right. No, but
that verse with Richard Gear and they're dancing around and

(09:35):
then Rene's Alwiger does that little smile. I love this
movie so much. Did you see it when it first
came out? Or no? I wasn't allowed to see it.
I was was movie came out, And yeah, I was
like eight or nine when this movie came out, so
I wasn't allowed to see it. But I remember very
clearly my grandma r. I. P. Pat loftis the best.

(09:59):
She Her whole deal was that she would tell you
things you weren't supposed to know when your parents weren't around,
and then your parents would be like, why the fund
did you tell her that? Um? So she I remember
very clearly. We were at uh. She brought me out
for like a report card lunch, and she described everything

(10:22):
that happened in Chicago to me. She told me the
whole movie and she was like, it's so good. I
saw it with my friend May and it was just
the best thing I've ever seen. And she told me
about the whole movie, and then I think, I think
I would have seen it when it came out on DVD,
so like I was pretty young when I when I
saw it, I just didn't see it in theaters and

(10:42):
was just like so hooked on it. This was my
first This was my introduction to Richard Gear because I
still haven't seen Pretty Woman. What wow, I know, but
this was my introduction to Richard Gear and he went
on to become a very formative childhood crush of mine.
Sure off of this movie, as did Katherine Sada Jones,

(11:05):
and so I just, uh, I love this movie and
it's interesting to watch back in because unfortunately I feel
like a lot of the themes and like messages in
this movie are timeless in a way that people are
always bad, right, But I don't know just I mean,
this is like a very low hanging fruit angle to take.

(11:29):
But I was like, oh, watching Chicago, you know carefully
after the last five years in the US, you're like, wellshit,
it's wild. Yeah, yeah, what's your what's your history with Chicago?
I didn't see it right away. I don't think I
saw it until until after it won the Economy Award
for Best Picture, and then I was like, oh, I

(11:50):
guess I should see this. Um. I was in high
school at the time, and as listeners of the podcast
might know, I am generally not a fan of live
action movie musicals, but there are a handful of exceptions,
and Chicago is one of them. When I did see it,
I liked the movie enough to buy it on DVD.

(12:11):
It's a romp. It's a romp, but for some reason. Okay,
So a friend of the cast, Katherine Leon Spy Kids episode.
Of course, she and I used to like. She would
come over, we would sit in my bed. I would
show her like quintessential movies that she had never seen.
I was like, you haven't seen Star Wars. Here are

(12:31):
the Star Wars movies. You haven't seen this, blah blah blah.
I would we would like rifle through my huge binder
of DVDs and she's like, oh my god, you have Chicago.
I love Chicago. And then for some reason, course Katherine
loves Chicago. She has got a great taste. But for
some reason, I was like, do you want it? I

(12:53):
never watched this movie. Here you can have my DVD.
And now I regret it because I'm like, I would
like that back, Catherine. Catherine, have you asked? Yeah, she's not.
It's not like she's refusing to give it to me.
I just she doesn't know that. I um. Also, it's

(13:14):
like streaming, so who cares. But but I I purchased,
I really made. I made a lifelong commitment and I
purchased Chicago Diamond addition to watch whenever I wanted. It's
remastered and it has all these fun features and I
had such a fun time watching them. The production of
this movie looked so fun, Like do you ever any

(13:36):
time I would watch a First of all, Rob Marshall
directed this movie and is further proof that the choreographer
to director Pipeline is immaculate and needs no adjustment. See
Kenny or take Up. I was gonna say yeah, and
I think that's the only other example. I'm sure there's others,

(13:58):
but that's too. That's two pretty strong choreography good examples.
Rob Marshall choreographed and directed this movie and all the
behind the scenes. It just looks like a bunch of
celebrities went to summer camp to put together a school
play and then one of my favorite movies came out
of it. Like is so cool? I love Wow? Well,

(14:21):
should I do the recap? And yes, but I need
to tell you something about Rob Marshall first, Okay, please,
I was wondering if you located this fact. This is
something that like, okay, much like my other fun fact
that has nothing to do with this movie, but we
talked about the other day. This is a fact that
I know in my bones, but I forget and I
relearned once every couple of years, and I love it.

(14:43):
It's about director Rob Marshall, and it's that he began
as a dancer then became a choreographer. Makes sense. But
the thing that launched him into choreography and directing and
got him out of the full time dancing game is
that he suffered a herniated disc while performing in Cats.

(15:04):
So the only reason that Chicago two thousand two is
as amazing as it is because I feel like that
choreography and like the understanding of stage language is so
much of what makes this movie awesome and why I
like it more than a lot of other live action
movie musicals. Yeah, as it actually like understands cinematic language

(15:25):
and like how to put together a musical in a
way that's like totally I can suspend my disbelief for
the things that are happening, etcetera. It's so yeah, it's
so good. And if he hadn't suffered a herniated disc
while being a full body cat, it wouldn't have happened. Imagine.
It is interesting to me how it's like I guess

(15:46):
that I'm I still haven't seen in the Heights, and
like whatever, there's that Steven Spielberg West Side Story coming out.
I wonder if it's going to be any good, because
I feel like big directors are given popular Broadway musicals
and very often like I don't know what to do
with them, and they're so I mean, it's like you've
got Joel Schumacher fant about the opera a lot of swings.

(16:07):
He didn't know what he was doing. Chris Columbus did Rent,
which is one of the worst like director to project
matches I can think of. Like, there's just so many
examples of people getting it wrong, and it's like, yeah,
cats cat whatever, I forget his name, but the guy
who did what's his name, Tom Tom Pepe, Yeah, who

(16:28):
also funked up La Miss, but everyone gave him awards
for it for some reason. It's like, oh, can you
make every famous person sing out of key and cover
them in dirt? Like I don't get but but yeah,
like this this whole I think is so interesting about
this movie because it's like this movie and Mulin Rouge
came out very close together, and I feel like people

(16:48):
sort of thought, oh, there's going to be this big
resurgence of the movie musical, but then there kind of
wasn't because then they just like hired all these famous
directors who didn't understand musicals. But Lan Rouge one of
the few other live action movie musicals that I can
fully get behind. It's amazing. I was. I feel like,
I don't know if I've ever said his name correctly,

(17:10):
bas Learman. I think that's right. He definitely has like
an understanding of like movement and pacing and like that's
so much of his style and that's why it works. Anyways,
pisses me off. Stopped getting really famous people who make
like war movies, war horses, like musicals. What are you

(17:31):
doing anyways? Um, maybe we should take a quick break
before we get into the recap, because we've just been
chatting for so long about how great Chicago is. All right,
so let's take a quick break and we'll come right
back and we're back. Okay, let's summarize the movie. I

(17:53):
promised not keep talking about. Oh wait, but I have
one more fun factor. No please, we talked about it
the other day. I'm sure it's connected to Chicago tangentially because,
oh because the two people in this fun fact, we're
both living in Chicago. We're very famous in Chicago. Roger
Ebert and Oprah used to date in the eighties. That

(18:14):
is a Chicago fact. That's just Chicago canon. Chicago canon
includes this musical and the fact that Roger Ebert and
Oprah briefly dated, which I didn't know about until you
told me. I don't know why that's not more common knowledge.
I know, but they were. But it's like at first year,
like but he's like so much older than her and
she's so much cooler than him. And Steadman is such

(18:38):
a you know, Steadman is so canon, right, but yeah,
like he was basically her last boyfriend before Steadman came
into the picture, one of the last ones wild. That's
just that's I'm Richard Gear putting my hat on, and
that's Chicago. Oh my god. And that's going to be

(19:01):
one of those facts that I will forget and then
relearn in a couple of months or years or whatever,
and then be like, oh my god, I can't believe it.
It's just like Rob Marshall getting a herniated desk in Cats.
It's just a delightful thing to learn over and over again.
So what so what happens in this movie anyways? Okay,
let me tell you. It's the roaring twenties in ch Chicago.

(19:26):
There's jazz music, they're flapperds, there speakeasies, it's the whole
nine yards. He Digs is in charge. Oh my gosh.
I was so delighted to see him. Who's my first
height Digs movie? Too? Was? It really is going five six, seven, eight?
And then what you're ten and you're like, what is
exqueeze me, who's that exciting? Just a reminder. T Diggs

(19:50):
now follows me on Twitter thanks to our Stella got
her groove back episode, so incredible. Tag him in this
I will. And another celebrity connection I have to this
movie is that John c Riley I saw at a
roller skating rink in Glendale, California. Oh my gosh. And

(20:14):
he's like a regular and not to docks his hobbies,
but yeah, isn't he like a regular there? And he's
like really good. That's what I've heard. He was a
pretty good roller skater. It's true. And uh, I I
don't know how frequently he he attends this roller rink,
but um, I'm so glad that John c Riley exit.

(20:35):
I feel like there's so many dads that have been
able to connect with their children over a mutual appreciation
of John c Riley. What a beautiful thing. Dads are
obsessed with John c Riley. The deeper, the cut, the better,
and I understand why. I get it. Okay, So we're
in the jazz age in Chicago. We meet vil m Kelly.

(20:59):
That's Katherine's to Jones Hot. She shows up at this
jazz club to do her vaudeville act, which she normally
does with her sister, but her sister isn't there, and
Velma is washing blood off her hands, and we're like,
what's what's going on? And then it's one of the
best openings of any movie ever. She's so hot, she's

(21:23):
so it's like I in our defense, she like her
whole She's obviously very hot, but like her whole attitude
is like hot, Like she's just hot at a very profound,
like in this confident way. You're like, I'm never going
to feel that way for a second of my entire life.
It's so amazing to just behold it, truly is. It's great.

(21:47):
And as you mentioned, Tay Diggs is also there playing
the piano and all over the place. Also there is
roxy Heart that's Renai's elbowger. She is in the audience
watching Velma. Then she goes home with this guy that
she's having an affair with who I forgot to write

(22:07):
his name down? Fred Caseley? Fred Caseley? Yes, whose Fred
Casey Mike's boyfriend? Why did you shoot him? I was leaving, etcetera.
R Yes. She finds out that Fred Caseley has been
lying to her about being able to help her break
into show biz, which is her dream. She wants to

(22:28):
be just like Vill m kelly. Basically, Fred Casey is
basically a guy who will drive you to an open
mic and say that he can get you up at
the open mic, but then it turns out he can't
even he can't even get himself up at the open mic,
and you're like, hold on, and then you understand her
motive for shooting him, because that kind of guy, you know,

(22:55):
the kind of guy. Yeah. So he then gets really
aggressive with her and physically assaults her, so she shoots
and kills him. Yeah. Roxy then tries to get her
husband Amos that's John c Riley to take the fall
for it, saying that this guy was a burglar and
that Amos shot him in self defense. Another amazing number.

(23:16):
It's so funny. Honey Rocks. Not one of my favorites,
but still pretty good. I love I love it. I
love when Rene's Algar is just casting looks at John
c Riley and he's like, but what, but what? But what?
And you're like, oh my gosh, someone helped this guy out.
And then she pushes him right because he is slowly

(23:37):
realizing that this guy who has been shot is someone
who Roxy knows and is having an affair with. So
Roxy ends up getting arrested and getting sent to Cook
County jail, and the d A wants to see her
hanged for her crime. Right, that's like a big, big deal,
which I guess which I didn't realize, Like how like

(23:57):
historically accurate that was at the time too, of just
the kind of blood lust that came with normalized hangings
and death penalties in the US. Yeah, scary, So the
stakes are high, yes, And in jail, Roxy meets Mama Morton.
That's Queen Latifa, who I want to see an entire

(24:19):
movie about her character. I wish. I've never seen the
stage production of this. I do like in the movie.
I feel like I definitely want to know more about
Mama Morton, Like how did she get start working there?
What is her background? Like what does she do when
she's not working? Like, I don't know, there's I have
a bajillion questions, And I wonder if there's more to

(24:43):
her in the stage production. I've never seen it on stage.
I was love too, but yeah, like Queen Latifa, just
I mean she was nominated for I think, like everyone
was nominated for an Oscar for this movie, but Queen
Latifa was I think, I mean, Catherine's Aida Jones ended
up winning and she was also amazing, but I think
Queen Latifa for me, kind of takes it because she

(25:04):
just kills it. It's so good. And yeah, it's like,
because of how good she is, you just want to
watch this character forever. And she's funny when she has
the blonde wig. Oh my gosh, it's also good. I
read that there was a musical number that she and
Katherine's Data Jones saying in a movie called Class that

(25:24):
they cut from the movie. Yeah, it's in the credits instead,
So yeah, we maybe learn more there, but yeah, I
feel like we and we'll talk about this, but yeah,
we do not get a lot of background on her
but her role in the So she is also a prisoner, right,
but she has taken on this role of helping out
other prisoners in exchange for money. Ever heard of it?

(25:48):
So we meet her and she gets a great song
which I think is my favorite in the movie, which
how does it go? When You're good to Mama, When
you're good to mama, Mama's good to you. Oh my god,
it's so good that whole number. And then in the
behind the scenes they show you how they shot it,
and I guess they shot it like the first time

(26:10):
they shot it in the like stagey version where she's
wearing the flapper outfit. Um the first time, they had
her stay on stage the whole time, and then Rob
Marshall's like, let's try it, and this time like go
into the crowd and interact with people, and they ended
up using stuff from both versions, and it's so I
was like, I love that. It's it's so good. It's great.

(26:31):
So Roxy meets Mama Morton. She also meets vil M Kelly,
who has since been arrested for murdering her husband and
her sister who were having an affair with each other.
And then we also get introduced to the six Mary
murderouses of the Cook County Jail, who have mostly murdered

(26:52):
men because they were cheating on the women or the
women were annoyed with popping bubblegum. I found that to
be pretty funny as a motive. So Roxy asks Vilma
Kelly for advice on how to avoid being hanged, but

(27:13):
Vilma like kind of blows her off, so Roxy goes
to Mamma Morton who tells roxy that she needs a
good lawyer. Enter Billy Flynn. Well, yeah, and I as
MoMA Martin is not a prisoner. She's not. Oh no,
she's not. She's like the superintendent as she's like the
warden of the prison she's employed by, So that's why

(27:36):
that's where her power comes from. So she's I feel
like she is kind of like a stand in for
how the prison system is extremely corrupt because she is
like taking money from prisoners and accepting bribes in order
to communicate with the outside world because she has access
to it. Yeah, she's like a prison warden. Got it.
I couldn't tell because the prison staff were dressed very

(27:57):
similarly to we all have the same prisoners. So it's like,
is she a prisoner? No, she's not, got it? Because
I've seen Shawshank Redemption a million times, I thought she
was like the Red character of that movie, who plays
a very similar role in like procuring things for the
other prisoners. But Red is a prisoner as well, so

(28:18):
I just kind of assumed it was the same situation.
Mama isn't she is, She's the warden and that's why
she is able. I think it's like when she takes money,
she's able to like contact the press, contact Billy Flynn,
contact whoever. That makes more sense. Okay, So Mama Morton
tells Roxy to hire Billy Flynn, who is very good
at defending women murderers, but he's also a very sleazy,

(28:44):
money grubbing lawyer. Guy. It's like a cartoonish yeah, criminal
defense lawyer. Yeah. So Billy Flynn already represents Filma and
he eventually takes on Roxy's case as well, thinking that
he can spin her as this like sweet reformed Southern
bell type. Because the whole thing with these murderous is

(29:08):
is that they have to get like the public and
the press to empathize with them, like empathize with this
persona that they cultivate in order to clear them of charges.
So this is what both Velma and Roxy are trying
to do for their like defense, and the public falls
in love with Roxy heart. Billy Flynn is paying a

(29:29):
lot of attention to her case, which makes Velma very jealous,
and Roxy is also trying to capitalize on her fame
as a murderer and turn it around into a successful
show business career, assuming she gets out of prison right,
which she is like directly stealing that from Velma Kelly
who's in the middle of doing it, and it's Roxy

(29:54):
is so naive. And then Velma, who the public is
starting to forget about, tries to suck up to Roxy.
She pitches that they do an act together when they're
released from prison, but Rocket number Tay Diggs being like
Vilma Kelly and an act of desperation and we're like,

(30:16):
t he he it's so good. And then Catherine Aanda Jones,
Oh god, it's so good seeing like a really well
executed like song and dance number, but also like you
know that the characters like really at the end of
their rope, and she's so desperate and sad and oh,
I love this movie so much. So Vilma pitches this idea,

(30:37):
but Roxy, who remembers when Vilma was really mean to her,
is like um pass. But then people momentarily lose interest
in Roxy. When a new murderous takes Chicago by a
storm yep, Lucy lou Is saying I have three for
you go to Hell. It is like ja, oh my god, Pulitzer. Yeah,

(31:03):
her character's name is Kitty Baxter. Um and everyone's obsessed
with her for a while, so as a publicity stunt
to get back in the spotlight, Roxy pretends to faint
and then says, oh, no, I hope the fall didn't
hurt the baby a k A. She's pretending to be
gregnant gregnant, she's pretending to be heavy with greg That brilliant,

(31:28):
shitty person thing to do in that moment. Truly, she
would make a great influencer TikTok personality today she essentially is, Yeah,
she's like a flapper influencer, where she's like a flash
in the pan. She's not doing anything special, but she's
like cut throat in a way that you're like, oh
my god, this woman is terrifying to me, or just

(31:49):
I mean person in general, terrifying influencers, No, no gender,
it's it's it's everybody, truly. Um And this publicity stunt works.
But then Amos figures out that he couldn't be the
father based on this like fabricated do date, so he
plans to divorce her. Mr Cellaphane comes on and we're like, oh,

(32:10):
it's so sad and good, and then my dad's like,
maybe I do like musicals. Well that happened yeah, because
and that's and that's the power of John c Riley
to get my dad to watch a whole movie musical
and be like, I kind of like that. Wow, Mike,
I like John c Riley song. Shout out to Mike

(32:31):
Loftus shout out like Meanwhile, one of the lady murderers
in jail loses her appeal and is hanged, making her
the first woman in Illinois to be executed. Also, we
have met a reporter named Mary Sunshine. That's Christine Baranski

(32:52):
who we see throughout the movie. She's reporting heavily on
all of these cases of the women in murder throw Yeah,
just to shout her out. She's incredible. The outfits that
she wears, I mean iconic. This was I think my
first time when I saw this movie. It was my
first time seeing so many famous people. This definitely would

(33:14):
have been like my adwitter, Richard gear renaz Alwig Er Katain's,
Aida Jones, Queen Latifa, John c. I mean, I wouldn't
have seen any of these people before because I was nine.
But the only person I had seen before was Christine
Baranski because she was in How the Grinch Stole Christmas.
Martha May who so her influence, she had a strangle

(33:37):
hold on millennial children. What a What a career? She said,
what a career. So then it's time for Roxy's trial,
which goes well. At first it seems like this defense
that Billy Flynn and Roxy have created is working on
the jury, but then Velma is called in to testify

(33:57):
and she lies about some information that makes Roxy look bad.
But then Billy works as magic and Roxy is ultimately
found not guilty. But the moment she's exonerated, another woman
commits a murder on the courthouse steps, so the public
frenzy moves on to her and no one cares about

(34:19):
Roxy anymore, or Lucy Lou or Lucy Lou or Velma.
So one day Velma approaches Roxy and she's like, hey,
remember that double act I pitched. Let's do it, baby,
And then Roxy's like, well, I hate you but fine.
That's my favorite, one of my favorite line reads in

(34:39):
the entire movie, where she's like, should we do it?
And then Roxy is like no, and then she says
why and she because I hate you away It's then
Velma's like, there's only one business in the world where
that doesn't matter, and then we're like show business. The
way that Catherine's Aada Jones speaks is so like wealthy.

(35:03):
I don't know how she she makes words just they
just keep going. There's this um on one of my
favorite podcasts, Who Weekly Um, which is a celebrity gossip
podcast that is I do recommend it. It's really good.
But they've been covering Catherine's Dada Jones quite a bit
recently because she is starting all of these small businesses

(35:25):
that don't make any sense. But she recently posted a
TikTok with these like gourds that she had grown in
her garden. Picture of this Katherin's Aida Jones holding an
enormous gourd, right, and she says it's extremely large, Like

(35:45):
she's just like talking about gourds, but she's Katherine's Dada Jones,
and so it just sounds like so theatrical. It's that's
the energy she's bringing to Like there's one business where
that doesn't matter at all. You're like, oh my god,
she sounds like a long cigarette Like it's it's wild.

(36:05):
I mean, she was perfectly cast, she really was. So.
Then the movie ends with Roxy and Velma performing on
a big stage for lots of adoring fans and that's
the movie. Yeah, so let's take another quick break and
then we'll come back to discuss and reac I wanted

(36:33):
to just start this conversation by acknowledging something that is
by far one of the worst elements of this movie,
which is the fact that it's produced by the Wine
Stains having and and this is I mean, we've talked
about it on the show before. I don't think that
there's really occasion to rehash everything now, but obviously the
fact that the wine Stains are attached to this production

(36:56):
is horrific and it and it just you know, it
takes kind of a little bit of the wind out
of a really amazing production. Fortunately, it as far as
I can tell, it doesn't seem as if the Weinsteins
were like around in an onset capacity. Um. It seems
like the production of this movie was relatively smooth. There

(37:17):
was some news items I was seeing about I believe
Goldie Hawn almost being in an adaptation of Chicago by
the Weinsteins in the mid nineties, and then she was
harassed by Harvey Weinstein and the project ended up not happening.
Uh well, linked to that in the description, but obviously
want to acknowledge their involvements, and I mean it goes

(37:40):
without saying that they're fucking monsters, but the production team
on this movie, I mean, it's kind of interesting where
this movie is written and directed by men. They are
both gay men and openly gay men. In uh in
Hollywood and in early two thousand's that was still a

(38:02):
pretty um unusual thing to be an openly gay director
directing movies of you know that were this huge. So
shout out to Rob Marshall and his hopefully recovered disc
for that and and their queer directors who have gone
on to have huge careers afterwards. This is I don't

(38:24):
think Rob Marshall ever, you know, returned to the height
of Chicago, but you know, he directed Into the Woods,
which I didn't see. He directed the Emily Blunt Mary Poppins,
He's directing the New Little Mermaid, and then the screenplay
was written by Bill Condon, who started as a writer
and is now a huge director. He wrote Chicago, but

(38:48):
he also wrote and directed Dream Girls, another faive of
mine from this time, directed to Twilights, directed both Breaking Down.
Mr Bill was was there um and also directed the
uh what he he wrote The Greatest Showman. Okay, that's

(39:10):
the point against him. But and then he directed The
Emma Watson Beauty and The Beast That Sucked. All that
to say, the two kind of top brass. Here are
queer men who went on to have very successful careers.
So shouts out there, good for them. Yeah, should we
do a little context. Yeah, the context for this movie rocks.

(39:34):
I knew I knew some of this, but going back
and like finding out how much of this movie at well,
this musical is pulled from actual history is so wild.
Do you want to take it? I can take whatever
you prefer. How about this? Take another swig of your
your beer? All I ran out? Oh no, I'm so sorry.

(39:57):
But yeah, I mean, I'll take the reins on this one.
But if there's anything I messed up or that you'd
like to add, by all means, I'll just chime in.
I'll just chime in my nase. Okay, So Chicago The
Two movie is based on a nineteen stage musical of

(40:18):
the same name, which had a revival in which became
the longest running American musical and Broadway history. Bob Fossey, Baby,
that's that Fossy Magic. Yes. Um, that musical was based
on a nine Broadway play by Maureen Dallas Watkins, who

(40:41):
we will be talking more about, and that play is
about to real life jazz era murderers. These names I
might get wrong as far as pronunciation. Um, it's these
names sound to me like you're forgetting val m Kelly
and Roxy Heart. Like it just sound like you're like
um Belva Gartner and you're like no Velma Kelly, so

(41:05):
Belva Gartner who Velma Kelly is based on, and Boula
Bela Ann who Roxy Heart is based on. So basically
in the nineteen twenties in Chicago, I don't know if
there was like an unprecedented number of women in jail
for murder in this time and place, or if it's

(41:26):
just that women being in jail for murder in Chicago
in the twenties was especially publicized, and that's why we
know a lot about it. I have. I have a
tiny bit of insight here that connects to quick Plug
ac cast just still being released right now. You can
listen to it and you can hear Caitlin's voice in

(41:49):
it as well in it. But so my understanding of
this is at least in the way it was covered
in the media, which is like, what that whole play
was satirizing, is that this kind of comes at the
tail end, Like the crimes that this is based on
comes a couple of years after women get the vote. Uh,

(42:09):
it comes at the tail end of the first wave
feminist movement. And so the whole Flapper era, I mean
it was, and we'll discussed this as well, it was
very still centered on middle class and above white women,
which this story is no exception too. But uh, what
what I learned in researching for the show is that

(42:30):
usually periods of success for really any social movement, but
in this case, the feminist movement is then met in
the years following with a wave of backlash and at
least focus on, um, the negative aspects of literally anything
a woman is doing that is negative. And so my

(42:51):
read on this with that lens is that this sort
of came in the kind of fallout of this huge
success for the feminist movement and by really putting media
scrutiny on women who were murdering their sexual partners, whether
they were you know, in Roxy's case, you know, she's

(43:13):
cheating on her husband or vill mcklly, like she's you know,
portrayed as kind of this loose woman who's like living
her own life and so demonizing those people in the
fall of a big feminist win in women's liberation kind
of closely matches up with how those things tend to go.
So I wasn't super surprised to know that. You know,

(43:35):
it's very I think it would have been very easy
in the early twenties to be like, well, look, feminism
fucked everyone, like women are are murderers now, we gave
women the right to vote and another killing Peo. Yeah,
that was like, that was kind of my my read
on this period. But I mean, but I you know,

(43:56):
that's not for sure, but that was either way, it
seemed like women being murderers was so hot. It was
so hot at that time, and especially in Chicago specifically
for some reason. So that was what was going on historically,
in the Cook County Jail in Chicago in the twenties,

(44:17):
there was a section called Murderous Row where more than
a dozen women were like all the coolest, most recent
woman murderers were all just we're all hanging out being
detained their wild waiting to stand trial for murder. Most
of them had been accused of killing their husband or

(44:39):
lover then. So there were these two women in particular
who were getting a lot of media attention because they
were traditionally by Western beauty standards attractive. So this was Bulah, Beulah, Beulah,
let's go with that, Beulah and On and Belva Gardner.

(45:00):
These women, they were receiving fan mail, they were giving
each other makeovers in jail. I thought that was more interesting,
Like that was something that I wish that they kind
of focused more on in the adaptations, is the fact that,
like I feel like in the adaptations, definitely Velma and
Roxy are put into conflict, which makes sense in the story,

(45:21):
but it sounds like the people they're based on were
friends and like close friends, and I kind of am
more interested in that angle of them being kind of
allied in this like similar fucked up situation from the beginning.
But yeah, so you know, all these women were like
giving each other pedicures and stuff, basically making themselves as

(45:42):
pretty unpopular as possible, knowing that it was rare for
the all male juries at the time to convict women,
especially attractive women, of murder, even though even if there
was like mountains of evidence against them, I will say, yeah,
it seems pretty it seems like Beulah and Velva Um

(46:04):
did it seems certainly. So. Then Maureen Dallas Watkins, who
was one of the few women reporters at the Chicago
Tribune at the time, was assigned to report on murderous
Row and it was assigned to her specifically because her

(46:25):
editors thought that that particular subject of covering women awaiting
trial for murder would be too boring for men to
report on how wrong they were right, So kind of
with the help of all of this press from Maureen
Dallas Watkins on Beulah and Velva, they were not convicted

(46:49):
of murder. They were set free. And they did this
because they kind of leaned into the defense of having
been corrupted by jazz music and booze. So that's something
that we'll talk about a lot um. Yeah, like all
things that are associated with personal freedom, which was not

(47:10):
cool for women to be having, right, and then they
kind of, as we see in the movie, they put
on these personas of oh, no, I'm reformed, now I'm
I'm I was a sinner, but now I'm I'm sweet
and innocent, and I even have a baby on the
way because this fake pregnancy thing that we see roxy

(47:30):
Heart do and the movie is based on what Beulah
and On actually did in real life to try to
garner sympathy from the public. So I was truly shocked
at how close they're right. The Villa m Kelly stuff
seems to be like somewhat fictionalized, like the whole sister
thing I think is made up, but the yeah, roxy
Heart and Beulah An are like one and the same,
like down to like the mechanic husband who wasn't totally

(47:53):
sure what was going on right right exactly. So I
have a quote here that I'll share, which, unless you
have any other additional preliminary context that I think will
lead into a discussion about kind of what's thematically happening
in this movie. I think, Well, I think the only

(48:13):
other thing I wanted to touch on was the fact
that Marian Dallas Watkins so she like covers the story
in her twenties and releases it. I thought it was interesting,
like she the play and the musical, But the play
started out as like a pretty like heavy handed satire
because it was a play that was running in Chicago
about murders that had taken place in Chicago two years prior.

(48:37):
Like everyone was watching it like it was I mean,
obviously like an iconic, well crafted story, but it was
like everyone knew exactly what this was about, and it
was interesting too. I read a little bit about her life.
It didn't do a super deep dive, but just how
her attitude towards her this play kind of changed over

(48:58):
time where I think she started to feel as time
went on, and she she like left public life in
the forties but lived to I think the late sixties,
early seventies or something like that, but as time went on,
she sort of didn't want the play to be continued
to be adapted, even though it was adapted into a

(49:18):
movie with Ginger Rogers I believe in the forties called
Roxy Heart. But I think she's she started to feel
like people are taking the wrong message away from this
famous play I wrote, and I don't know if I
really want to keep perpetuating this story. And so Bob
Fossey approached her in the sixties and was like, I

(49:39):
need to make this into a fossy Hands musical. It's
an emergency. You need to let me do it, and
she said no. And it wasn't until after she died
that he was able to get the rights. Because I
think that money plus estate plus not living creator equals
oh whoopsie, Daisy, I have the rights. So I think
that it is like, I mean, am I glad that

(50:02):
Bob Fosse scammed his way into the rights to this
kind of but it is, but the ethics of that,
I was like, well, that's kind of sucked up. She said,
she said no, Bob, she said no, Um, I don't know,
bizarre right, that was the only other thing that I
had that I was like, that's something, yeah, and that
it kind of relates to this quote that I will

(50:23):
share from an article on sci fi dot com hot
entitled the real story behind Chicago's Mary murders is roxy
Heart and vill mkelly. And this is speaking to the
general atmosphere and what Marine Dallas Watkins was reporting on.
So quote, the press and the public ate up the gossip,

(50:47):
the details on dresses, and the sob stories about bad men,
booze and devilish jazz. Prosecutors began to think you couldn't
convict a pretty woman in this town. As for Watkins,
she believed her influence was he to the acquittal of
both the Mary murderouses, as she felt the pair were
guilty and likely lying through their teeth. She had mixed

(51:07):
feelings on that, so she wrote about it in Watkins
went from reporter to Broadway playwright with Brave Little Women,
a satirical stage play that would later be retitled Chicago.
It was she who transformed a non gartner, their victims husbands, lawyers,
peers and reporters, and two characters like Roxy Heart, Van

(51:28):
m Kelly, Billy Flynn, Mary Sunshine and Go to Hell Kitty.
She hoped this dark comedy would highlight how appearances and
sex appeal had become too important in the justice system. Unquote.
So I think that's really interesting. I mean that's like
that the such a bizarre journey for all of this

(51:51):
to go on, And I think it's an interesting way too.
And I think, you know, the ethics are certainly up
for debate, because you could argue this is not necessarily
her story to tell. Well, it's I'm sort of like,
I don't know, it doesn't bother me that much. I
like it's because it's she's not claiming that it's the

(52:12):
story of you and on she's you know, changing things.
She's sad like I don't know, I think that that
that it's really interesting how this got made and how
I mean, I'm always interested in like how creator's opinions
changed towards their own work once it's sort of out
of their hands. And the fact that like Mary Sunshine

(52:32):
was I didn't even realize this until I was doing
this research segment, but that Mary Sunshine was like this
kind of amalgamation of reporters that Marie and Dallas Watkins
thought were too easy on and kind of you know,
eating up this bullshit from clearly guilty people. And also
like a way of poking at herself, uh, for how

(52:56):
she covered the story at the time, and almost like
a way of I don't know, like giving the finger
to herself in her own work. It's very it's like
complex ship because Mary Sunshine is noticeably the only woman
reporting on these cases in the movie. So right, that's
very funny. Yeah, um, but to me that kind of

(53:19):
just it's sort of the cornerstone of what this movie
is about, which is that And this is something that's
come up on different episodes for different movies that we've
discussed in the past, but it explores the lengths that
women sometimes have to go to in order to survive,

(53:41):
which in some cases means like flaunting their sexuality, capitalizing
on their quote feminine wiles, but also kind of simultaneously
demonstrating that they are exactly what society expects of a woman,
especially at this time where oh my gosh, yes, I

(54:04):
was seduced by you know, these sinister things like jazz
and booze and like putting on like that veneer of
weakness that wasn't actually there. Yeah, and then but but
but what I've always wanted was a stable home where
I can darn my husband's socks and iron his shirts
and and have a baby and take care of the family.

(54:27):
And like these are all things that are like very
obviously fabricated because that's what the public will eat up
because of society's expectations of women. But I guess I'm
just like, there is commentary on that in the movie.
I just I don't I don't, well, I don't even

(54:47):
know really how I feel about it, because I'm like,
but then, but these women were murderers, so right, like
it's not so it's like that kind of hard because
there are there are other examples of this type of thing,
where like women have to kind of exploit societal expectations
or kind of exploit their own sexuality to survive because

(55:12):
they have no other choice. But they are otherwise, you know,
morally upstanding people and not murderers kind of thing. But
I'm just like, well, these people are also they're doing that,
but then they're also murderers, so they're a little harder
to sympathize with. But again I'm still rooting for them.
So it's complicated. I have complicated feelings about it. It's

(55:32):
that's what And I'm like, here I am in my
little Chicago two thousand two cape, but like, yeah, and
I feel like what saves it and and the fact
that the source material was written by a woman tract
for me for kind of this reason where what saves
this for me is that it's based on something that

(55:53):
truly happened, and so it's not it's not really I
mean it is, it's not really a more reality tail
because it is kind of just like satire on something
that was happening at this time. And everyone in this
is terrible, Like there's no one of any gender in
this movie, except for some people would argue Amos and

(56:15):
the woman what is her name in Katerina who is
truly profoundly innocent, Like those are the only characters that
you can you know freely. And I think Katerina is
kind of like she's the character you can freely empathize
with because she didn't do anything and she's being eaten
up for because of this language barrier, because she's not

(56:36):
really able to defend herself, and because she doesn't have
any money, and so it's like that is like the
purity character, but everyone else fucking sucks, and it's like
doing what they need to do to get from point
A to point B, and it's not like commendable behavior
at all. And I don't think that the movie is
like endorsing the behavior either, Like I I do appreciate

(56:58):
that the movie, I don't like, you can't help but
root for Roxy and Velment at different points even though
you're like, they definitely did it, but the way that
they have to navigate get it, because it's like, first
of all, you need to consider why did they do
it and how you know, completely inhospitable. And I don't
even think that this is something that Maureen Dallas Watkins

(57:21):
would even agree with because she seems to feel bad
that she kind of like built up their personas and
the way that she did, and clearly wasn't happy that
they got away with murder. But but it's like contextually,
it's like, Okay, why would women kill at this time?
And whatever? There's a bajillion documentaries and podcasts about that

(57:43):
exact subject. But both Roxy and Velma's and and I mean,
the whole cell blocked Tango number, with the exception of
the one person who is innocent, is all about like
women trying to like live their life the way they
want to, being thwarted or deceived or lied to by

(58:04):
men who feel entitled to their bodies or their time
or their marriage or whatever it is, and then killing them.
Like so, I feel like the context is very clear
of like it's not endorsing murder, but it is telling you, like,
this is a period of time where I mean, it's like,
what options does Roxy have if if her dream is

(58:25):
to be a famous cabaret singer but she's got no money,
just got to vote a couple of years ago, and
you know, it's like, what are her options? I don't know?
And the same goes for really, I mean every woman
in the in the story and I in what I
what I really wish is that because in Cell Block Tango,

(58:47):
and I think historically in the play as well, there
are black women and women of color included in the cast,
but you don't get to spend a lot of time
with them, and you don't get to examine how there
is I think that there is pretty solid commentary in
this story of white women weaponizing how white women were

(59:08):
viewed at this time. They're weaponizing white fragility by the
bursting into tears and just the things that you would
commonly associate with, you know, traditionally attractive white girls at
this time. But you don't really get to see the
other side of that and how, you know, how would
a black woman put on murderous row in Chicago be treated?

(59:30):
You would imagine quite differently. And I feel like there's there.
It sucks because there's I think that there's room for
more of those stories, especially you have. Do you remember
the pop star Maya, She's in this movie. I remember
Maya Maya. We were all there. I hope she's well,
I don't really know what she's enough to but but

(59:52):
you know, it's I don't know what my original point was.
I just I think that you are given the context
for why they're murdering without saying, hey, go out there
and murder someone, which is a difficult line to toe,
but I feel like the movie does it pretty well.
Sure well, that's my main criticism of the movie, where

(01:00:12):
there is this focus on these attractive white women because
that was the focus of what the press and the
public and what they were obsessed with at the time
and still now like and still now yeah, I mean,
the president has long been set for this. I would
have liked to have seen and maybe were this to

(01:00:36):
be adapted again today, we would get more focus on
the women of color who were on murderous row, who
again we see in the movie, but it's not explored
at all. It's not explored at all. Okay, So there's
there's one woman who her story is that she stabbed

(01:00:56):
her jealous husband ten times because in like a bit
of jealous rage, he was like, you're screwing the milkman.
He ran into her knife. He ran into her knife
ten times. That character is played by Deirdre Goodwin Um.
And then there's the character who is played by Maya,
who had murdered a lover because he cheated on her.

(01:01:18):
Even within that song, those little snippets of their story
take up less screen time than yes, the white women's
um so we get less about them. So I was like, Okay,
who are these women? Is there? Are they based on
real women who were on Murderous Row during this time.

(01:01:42):
I tried as hard as I could to find some
information about that, but every article I found, which was
you know, a lot a lot has been written about this,
those articles, even ones that are written you know, within
the past few years, still only focus on Beulah and Belva, Right,
So I like couldn't find any information about who were

(01:02:04):
the other women on Murderous Row? Were there women of
color present, what were their stories, what were their names,
what were their crimes and situations? So I was just
disappointed that there is just not a lot of information
on that out there, probably because good records were not
kept at the time about it, or if they were kept,

(01:02:26):
they weren't widely reported on in the same way that
these stories with Yeah, I totally agree, and I think
that that also connects back to what we were talking
about earlier, where Mama Morton is this incredibly dynamic, awesome character,
and we don't know anything about her back story, which
is like such a frustrating and persistent trope surrounding black

(01:02:48):
characters in a supporting cast, where it's like, why do
we never see their back stories? And it's because these
majority white writers and directors and creators, And I mean,
this story from its or and all the way down
is controlled by white people. They're not caring enough, you know.
And and so I totally agree with you, and I

(01:03:08):
think that it's doubly shitty and a big missed opportunity.
First because clearly there should be people of color who
are involved behind the camera with projects like these, and
certainly we're not to any significant degree for this movie.
But also because with Velmat and Roxy, you see like

(01:03:30):
a master class in weaponizing white fragility, which would have
made it all the more, you know, impactful to the
story too, to really like call that out for what
it is, because I feel like we can watch this
now and be like, oh, that is like a classic
white fragility thing for white women specifically to do in

(01:03:52):
these situations, but it's more characterised. I think at the
time I was more characterized. Is this is something women do,
and not specifically white women who are traditionally attractive. So yeah,
I mean it's it's it's shitty because the talent is
obviously there and the story has room for it. And

(01:04:14):
you know, all you need is a fucking halfway decent
archival researcher, and these stories exist. So where are they?
You know, where are they? There were even so I
not to brag or anything. Was a guest on a
podcast entitled Women Who Kill, hosted by a friend of
the cast, Kai Choice. My episode was on a serial

(01:04:40):
killer named Tilly Climax, a k Mrs blue Beard, who
was living in Chicago in the nine twenties. Um, I
think her crimes were committed like two years before Beulah
and Belva were murdering their people. Yeah, she was ahead
of the curve. She came from a poor Polish immigrant background.

(01:05:06):
She was not considered attractive, which the papers commented on
when they were telling her story. Like, so basically anyone
who wasn't like a middle class or upper middle class,
conventionally attractive white woman was, like I guess, demonized in

(01:05:26):
the way you would expect a murderer to be demonized.
By the press. But because these two women were again
considered attractive and came from backgrounds that you know, allowed
them some privilege, they just exploited that and left everyone

(01:05:50):
else in the dust. Basically, there's a first of all,
that story is wild. I'm gonna listen to that. That
and and I love Kaispot. Yes, it's really good. It's
one of my favorite uh walking pods. Um, I have
kind of a reverse story to that that. I wasn't

(01:06:11):
able to super confirm this, but it does seem like
the sorry her name is Katerina in the movie The Hungary,
the young Hungarian woman was hung, So it seems like
that story um was at least pulled in part with
a very different ending from a woman named Sabella Nitti,
who was an Italian immigrant who didn't speak a lot

(01:06:34):
of English and much like you were just saying, she
was not considered traditionally attractive. This was also and I'm like,
I don't know, deep in the hole on in Kathy
podcast research, so whatever. At this time, you know, recent immigrants,
even if they were white, were often considered unattractive in

(01:06:54):
the nineteen twenties and would be kind of demonized for
not having literally like wasp feet er. Anything that wasn't
wasp was not attractive. So Sibella Ninti was an Italian
emigrant who was accused of the murder of her missing
husband and she it doesn't seem like she did it.

(01:07:15):
There was no evidence, she had no motive, there was
no proof. But it was the kind of case where
it's like these prosecutors need to win, so we're going
to and she she got sentenced to death. She doesn't
end up getting executed though, because she gets a lawyer
kind of comes to her rescue and saves her by

(01:07:37):
giving her a makeover because she was characterized in the process. Look,
you know, she's not attractive, she she doesn't speak English.
You have all this all this stuff that is just
like aggressively mothering her in order to convict her of
a crime she didn't commit. And she's saved by a
makeover and being and so that, I mean it feels

(01:08:00):
super duper Billy Flynn of just like bat your eyes
at the jury. They're not smart enough to you know,
if if you look the right way and you act
the right way, you can manipulate their behavior, which is
like I don't know, I mean like like we've been
talking about. That's a really complicated topic because it's not
like people should be able to get away with murder necessarily, right, Um,

(01:08:23):
I think unless there's an abuser involved, and then I
don't really care. But um, but but but but the
fact that it's there are so many real life examples
from that era of that working, and so it's like, well,
how toxic does a culture have to be to literally
be able to get away with murder pretty reliably and
consistently as long as you look the part like and that,

(01:08:48):
I mean, yeah, that is something that I think this, um,
this story does pretty well, although I do agree that
it's not it doesn't go far enough in terms of
like showing different women's stories at all. Um. I didn't
want to say really quickly. This is unfortunately the second
time this year we have to talk about this. But

(01:09:08):
speaking of looking the part, this is yet another movie
that Renee Zellweger does a fabulous job in where so
much of the coverage that she got around the time
of this movie was hyper focused on her body. We
we talked about this in our Bridget Jones episode earlier

(01:09:32):
this year for the opposite reason, where Renee Zellweger. I
feel like I don't. I mean, to some degree, it
just seems like unlucky timing on her part. But she
has just been so aggressively scrutinized for every part of
her body. It feels like at some point where during
the early two thousands, it was very much a focus
on her weight, because she had a normal body when

(01:09:55):
she played Bridget Jones, but everyone called her fat. She
lost weight to play Roxy Heart and everyone said she
looked sick, and no matter what she said herself about
how she felt about her body and how she didn't
like having her body commented on, like, no one listened,
And so I wanted to just share there there is

(01:10:17):
a whole a very well sourced Vulture article that came
out a couple of years called a history of people
commenting on Rene's Alwiger's face, because that was what it
became later, people aggressively scrutinizing her plastic surgery, which is
just let her list the woman has two oscars? Can
you chill out? Like anyways? Um, I wanted to share

(01:10:43):
this quote from her. This is from around two thousand
and one, when she was playing Bridget Jones. She said
quote when the film was coming out, the question I
was asked the most was regarding my weight. I was
followed around Heathrow Airport by a guy who wanted to
take pictures of my backside. I don't understand the obsession.
And then on the flip side, because Bridget Jones came

(01:11:03):
out in two thousand one, Chicago came out in two
thousand two, and Rene's aller. I mean, she's very thin
in this movie, and and people were like, in the
reviews for this movie, people were saying, you know, she's
shockingly gaunt, and she's setting a dangerous precedent and all
this stuff, and no one ever asked her how she
felt about it. It was just like baseless comments and whatever.

(01:11:28):
And so she, you know, disputed the claims that she
was unhealthily thin at the time. And it's just, I
don't know, It's just another example of like, she gave
an incredible performance, Like what is your like, shut the
funk up, man, truly, So I just wanted to uh
say that again, just leave Renee alone. She does a

(01:11:51):
good job, she seems like a good person, she's very talented,
she's got two oscars. Just let her. Just let her chill.
She has like a I heard I learned this on
who Weekly as well. She has a Normi boyfriend right
now and they're just hanging out on balconies together like
good for Renee them love it. It's is this irony

(01:12:12):
or I'm not sure how to classify this, but like
the movie Chicago being about how women's appearance is so
heavily commented on and publicized and like the topic of
so much press. Again that's one of the main components
of this movie. And then for a bunch of people

(01:12:34):
to turn around and then do that very thing to
the actor's body, right like do you not do you?
Do you hear yourself? It's I'm like, maybe Marie and
Dallas Watkins was right, maybe as She's like, people clearly
aren't getting what I'm trying to say here because it's
like the same breath. No one's learned a damn thing

(01:12:56):
in eighty years. Yeah, yeah, It's like and unfortunately watching
I mean these murder cases or nearly a hundred years
old at this point, and we see this same dynamic
exists between the press and the public and the spectacle
like it's still alive and well, and like with the
exception of like the communication channels basically unaltered, which is

(01:13:18):
so depressing, and I'm like, God of all its it
sucks that this is a timeless story, but it like
kind of is. Yeah, I wanted to shut out when,
I mean this shout out is not the correct thing here,
but just when when last sort of point on how
whiteness and traditional attractiveness is clearly weaponized in this story.

(01:13:42):
The phrase that came to mind and I had to
sort of go back in my head and be like,
where did I hear this? Where did this come from?
Was the two pretty for prison? Have you heard that
phrase before? I don't think I have. It's a phrase
that I couldn't remember when I when I first heard it,
and I sort of basically it ties into I think

(01:14:02):
you see it very present in Roxy's behavior, where she's like,
you can't sentence me to death. I can't be in prison.
I'm too pretty for prison. And it's it's this very
given that Roxy is a murderer. I'm not pro prison
at all, but it's given that she's a murderer. You know,
she's trying to get away with it on the basis
of being traditionally attractive, white woman. Right, And so the

(01:14:25):
too pretty for prison phrase comes from two thousand and five.
It's based on a case that is absolutely horrific and
I don't want to rehash it here, but it essentially
comes down to a female teacher who sexually abused a student,
and while on trial, that was the phrase that was

(01:14:46):
I don't know if it was evoked in the courtroom,
but that was the phrase that was connected to this case.
But all that to say, like Chicago is based on
cases from this phrase too pretty for prison is it
was a ascribed to similar behavior that was happening eighty
years later, like it's it's depressing, that's some real Karen ship, Yes, Karen.

(01:15:11):
And then something you know, it's white privilege. It's hot privilege.
What's the phrase for that? You know what? I think? Yeah,
we don't talk about hot privilege enough. I think as
a as a culture it is discussed. I don't know
that we've we've discussed it on the show in depth,
but it definitely does seem like it's at play in

(01:15:34):
this story. Yeah, it is weird because, like, well, it
also kind of speaks to the one of the double
standards that are voisted on women, where You're expected to
be extremely attractive and really sexy, but not too sexy
because you don't want anyone to think you're a slut.

(01:15:55):
Like the exact line that they're towing here is like right,
so it's like you like, you have you have to like,
you know, look a certain way and adhere to every
Western standard of beauty. But you also have to be
a loyal and devoted wife, and you have to be
gregnant with a baby and be ready to make a

(01:16:19):
home for your husband and for your children, and to
iron his shirts and to do all that stuff. And that,
to me is like the most effective thing that this
movie accomplishes in terms of just like pointing that out,
making that commentary. Similarly like the idea of oh, these

(01:16:40):
these delicate women were seduced by these evil forces of
of such evil things as a genre of music and alcohol,
which yeah, just again the these such rigid gender roles
and and standard that are placed on women in terms

(01:17:01):
of like you can never misbehave, you can never drink
an alcohol. You have to also be really pretty and attractive,
but you only can have eyes for your husband, and
just like all of these standards, it's like the classic
it's an impossible bar to clear. So many of their

(01:17:22):
expectations are at odds with each other because it's to
be demure, but you also have to be wildly sexy,
and depending on the situation, you can be punished for
being either of those things. And right and how yeah
like and how hot I mean whatever, like being traditionally attractive. Like.
There's sides to that coin as well, where it's it's

(01:17:43):
I think that I mean. Obviously, in some of the
cases we just described, women who are considered to not
be attractive, apparently you can just kill them, uh for
not doing murders. Um, that's an oversimplification. But but then
on the other side, it's you know, women who do
kind of fall into that traditionally attractive whatever are often

(01:18:05):
hyper sexualized against their will and harassed, and so it's just, um,
it's impossible. There's just so many ways to lose in
this world. Uh, it's interesting. I just learned something that
maybe smile please sure, sorry please still yelling? Um, well,
he's wishing you happy birthday. He's like, I love you, mama. Anyways.

(01:18:30):
Jerry or Bach played Billy Flynn in the original Broadway
production How Fun Is That? In the goodness and Cheetah
Rivera played Velma Kelly like icons icons. So I was
just happy to learn that Jerry Orbach and Richard Gear

(01:18:53):
played the same part. I like that. I'd like that too. Um,
Richard Gear kills it as Billy Flynn. He really is amazing,
And that's really him tap dancing. That's really him tap dance. Yes,
I watched all the featurettes and he said it was
kind of funny because it was like he had sung.
He he like had sung before. Um, and so, and

(01:19:16):
I think that he and John c Riley were I
think the main members of the cast that didn't have
dance training that needed to dance, and they both tried
so hard, and they both were talking about how they're
like it's intimidating being in the same room with Rob
Marshall he was in Cats and I can't even tap
and like all this stuff. And then there's videos of

(01:19:37):
like Rob Marshall like taking it really slow with John
c Riley and like it's just such wholesome footage. Um,
that's so. I don't know. I just love when choreographers
direct because it's like when you once you see like
footage of a choreographer directing a musical movie. You're like, oh, yeah,
how else would you even do that? Like what you're

(01:19:58):
just gonna be like, You're like, if you can't do
it yourself, don't tell me to do it. But Rob Marshall,
like he's fucking on it. He's doing all that jazz
right next to Katherine's Ada Jones, And it's exciting that
there is like a whole half hour making of documentary
that's on YouTube as well that if you're a Chicago head,

(01:20:19):
I'd recommend it because it's just such a blast. Who
do you think Rob Marshall played in Cats when he
got injured? Do you think it was like Mr Mustaphiles
or rum tum Tugger? Thanks the question, which of the
Cats is doing the kind of movement? I mean, they're

(01:20:39):
all kind of doing wild movements, but like, who is
most likely to herniate a disc? I feel like that's
some rum tum Tugger ship to be herniating a whole disk.
Who's your favorite one again? With the pants and the suspender?
My god, skin Ble Shanks. I feel like it could
have Marshall. Skimble Shanks would have done a good Skimble Shanks.
I wonder it doesn't his His Wikipedia page is very

(01:21:03):
vague about it. They're just like he was in Cats
and herniated a desk. No, we're not taking any more
questions at this time. We need more information. I'm like, okay,
he was a Jelical I need more info which one,
which one? It matters which jelical cat was he though
he could he could have been Monchu Strap. You know,
I don't know. There's a lot of cats that are

(01:21:25):
at high risk for herniating a disk. Uh, So it
doesn't really it's so funny. It's like, oh, members of
the Cats, cats that could have her needed a disk.
That really doesn't narrow it down at all. They're all
over the place. Um do anything else for this movie,
I mean, we touched on it briefly, but just the

(01:21:46):
relationship between Roxy and Velma being highly antagonistic for most,
if not all, of the movie, because even at the
end when they are working together, we yeah, I get
why they don't like each other, right, yeah, because well,
so like Velma is mean to Roxy at first for

(01:22:09):
what appears to be a petty reason. She's well, I
don't even know, it's maybe it's not even any reason.
She's just mean to her because she's like the newbie there.
Unless I'm misreading or misremembering something, I don't think you are. No,
I think that it's it's I was really interested to
learn that the two, like the too real life people,
seemed to get along just fine, because it seems like

(01:22:31):
the the logic that this story is subscribing to. And
maybe I'm making too many excuses for it. I mean,
it's like they are just our two female leads are
being put at odds the way I guess I I
had like solidified it in my head over the years
that maybe I need to question a little bit, But
like was that I don't know the the reason that

(01:22:54):
women are often put in these antagonistic situations, and the
internal logic of this story is there's only room for
one woman in the headlines at a time, and so
it's like this, it almost feels like they're viewing it
as a competition, and like why would I you know,
it's almost like reality show logic of like I didn't
come here to make friends. I came here to be

(01:23:15):
the most famous murderer ever or whatever. That was kind
of but it was like, but that's not even what
happened in real life, Like that was what happened in
real life, I would sort of let it go. But
that's not so why add that in Nor is it
what happens at the very beginning of their antagonistic relationship.
I could maybe understand if right when Roxy got there

(01:23:36):
and she was like already the hottest, like the talk
of the town kind of thing, right, she's not at first,
where then Velma would feel threatened and that would motivate
her being cruel to Roxy. But that's not what happens.
Roxy doesn't take Velma's spotlight until later. So it first

(01:23:58):
Velma is mean to Roxy for no reason, and when
Roxy is like mean back, that does seem more motivated,
because that's sort of like a retaliation thing, like, well,
you were mean to me, I'm going to be mean
to you now. But you're right, Yeah, the beginning is
not very motivated by much. Yeah, and then they continue
to not get along. But then it's all just it's

(01:24:19):
I see what you're saying in terms of because we
you know, we've we've talked about this to a lot
where like especially when men right women being extremely antagonistic
and like petty to each other, they never consider the
context of why that would be because if that does happen,
the context is usually well, women are only afforded so
many spaces or our spots or there's only room for

(01:24:43):
one woman. So women do feel like they have to
be competitive and antagonistic toward each other too, again like
just secure their survival. But that isn't what's happening it right,
it does. It does become that way with because yeah,
like Roxy takes Vilma's spotlight and then so they're kind

(01:25:06):
of like constantly battling for the spotlight. And then when
when the Roxy starts like steal Velma's like court deceptions
or whatever, like the garter and the enemy, Like I
get why they have become enemies. But but that is
a good point that it's not super motivated, especially because

(01:25:26):
Velma is like who Roxy wants to be at the beginning,
and you do see like, yeah, I mean I think
the Velma is like being I don't know, I mean
I think there's like there's multiple ways to look at
it where it's like, yeah, Velma is kind of is
like pretty arrogant at the beginning of the story because
she is the famous one at the beginning of the story,

(01:25:46):
and why would I talk to you, I'm the famous one,
which Roxy then does the exact same thing to her
later on. It doesn't feel good. That's sort of Velma's
arc of like this is very temporary, and I am
a fool. Well if I think that, you know, I
can just you know, be a famous murderer forever. So
and I and I do like how it ends, because

(01:26:08):
in real life it's like kind of a bummer. I think,
like Beulah died of like tuberculosis, tuberculosis like pretty soon
after getting like so that I'm glad that they didn't
do that, but I do, like, I mean, just to
tie up the story, how they end up working together
and realizing that they it's like they're still terrible people, right,
like they're still murderers, but but that they're stronger as

(01:26:31):
a unit than they were separately, and that they needed
to just in the way. That's like the world very
much wanted to forget them and move on to the
next thing, and they had to find a way to
remain relevant so they could continue to live the kinds
of lives they wanted to live. Where it was like,
you know, Roxy could have gone back with Amos, Velma

(01:26:53):
could have settled down and and you know, lined up
with the societal expectations of the time. Neither of them
want that, and so they find a way to put
their differences aside and make that happen for themselves. And
I think that that is like interesting. It doesn't make
it noble and necessarily because they still fucking suck, But
I but I like and and then the end, I mean,

(01:27:13):
it's almost like a little ham fisted watching it now,
but we're like, Roxy's like, this couldn't have happened without you,
because it's like, yeah, no one would give a shit
about them, if, you know, if the media circus wasn't
the way that it is. So I don't know, Yeah,
their relationship, I think that I think that the story
would be kind of generally improved and would work. Could

(01:27:37):
you could you could say the exact same things that
this story is trying to say and have them get
along and so adding in that conflict even if, like
you're saying, like even if they I don't know, betray
each other and piss each other off later, which makes
sense in the context of the story in the in
the historical period, seeing them get along, I don't think

(01:27:57):
you lose anything And if in fact, it might even
raise this stakes if they start as friends and then
it's like this media circus of well, only one of
you can be famous enough to not be convicted of murder,
Like that's higher stakes. It doesn't seem like Roxy has
any female friends in her life, and it seems like
Velma's only friend she killed because that was her sister,
and so there's I was like, Okay, maybe that is

(01:28:20):
actually a stronger story choice, because then you're not just
losing you know, your your life, You're losing your only friend,
your friend. That's basically the plot of All About Eve,
where that's true. They start out on good terms and
then I don't even remember the character's names now, but
one of them starts to get jealous of the other one,

(01:28:42):
and then the start well, one of them is definitely Eve.
It's the one that isn't Bettie Davis, right, Um, And
I just don't remember which one is Eve? Is Eve
Bettie Davis or she was the younger woman? Okay, right,
you're right, I'm butchering remembering. But I love that movie,
and yet I don't know what the characters ain't are?
Um story of my life? But yeah, I mean that

(01:29:04):
now that we're kind of talking that through, that would
be a more interesting choice. And then it would, and
then you can keep the ending as is and have
them reconcile and get that friendship back by being like, oh,
that media circus was bullshit. Let's take this on the
road and make money off of all these losers who
vaguely remember that we've murdered people. Like, yeah, whatever, that
rocks fine. I like that better. Yeah, this just felt

(01:29:28):
like the writer was like, it's a movie, we have
to throw more tension in it. Where could a source
of tension be? Oh, of course between two women, because
women are petty and jealous and bitter, right, And it's
not like this story lax tension, like like there's kind
of no need for it. It's like there's an incredible

(01:29:50):
amount of tension between Roxy and basically everyone that she's
ever met, because she's a pretty selfish and abrasive person.
Um that said, and I mean it's again, it's like
she's such a tough character because she fucking sucks. But
like you're like, okay, you know, to an extent, I
get it, and I do like like the moment where

(01:30:12):
Roxy is it works against her, but she's so quick
to call out Billy Flynn for being a Charlatan asshole,
and it blows up in her face. But it is
kind of cathartic to see, you know, someone who's so
clearly in it for money and cloud and doesn't actually
care about the women that he's defending, to see her

(01:30:32):
just be like, what fuck you? You know you're fired?
I don't know, um speaking of people who are in
it for the money, I thought, because I didn't super
remember this movie until going back to prep for this episode,
Mama Morton, she is sort of presented at first as
like a big hard ass, and I thought, oh, I

(01:30:53):
wonder if there's going to be a lot of antagonism
between her and the prisoners, because that also would have
felt like a unexpected choice to introduce tension into the situation.
But I was kind of surprised that there isn't much
tension there. Like she at first she's like, oh, something

(01:31:14):
bothering you? Well, I don't give a ship. Also, I
love money. But then after that, like she seems pretty
willing to help the people who have money, so she's
like a capitalist, and we don't love to see that
super capitalist feel like she I mean, I feel like
she's just kind of a stand in for like, I'm

(01:31:35):
on the side of whoever is paying me. She's she's
not really on the side of the prison industrial complex
because she's accepting money from murderers, but she'll take a
check from the prison industrial complex. Like yeah, she's just
like a she she's lawless. It's interesting that they cast
a black woman in that role. I agree, considering the

(01:31:59):
prison industrial complex disproportionate effects and abuses black people. So
that was confusing. Yeah, I do think that it is
uh telling and bizarre. I mean, it's it's what I mean,
It's like, can I picture anyone in this movie except

(01:32:20):
Queen Latifa in this role? I know, like she's fucking incredible.
And what is interesting based on a rapid google we
just paused the podcast to do that this role was
generally played by white women up until Queen Latifa was
cast in this role, and since then the role is

(01:32:42):
generally played by black women. I believe that the same
actress has been playing Mom and Morton on Broadway for
some time. Yeah, a famous black Broadway actress. I don't
know Broadway actresses. I'm sorry, um, but but all that
to say yeah, that, uh, that doesn't seem to be
in the d n A of the part. But then gradually,

(01:33:04):
because of Queen Latifa's casting and performance, became kind of
integral to the part. Yeah. As of so for the
last ten years or so, Mom and Morton has been
played by black actresses on Broadway. Um, yeah, not an
ideal part too, right, I mean, I love Queen Latifa.

(01:33:27):
She steals every scene she's in that part where like good,
she's telling Roxy, oh you're we're actually taking you to
the special section murderous row, and then Roxy's like, oh
is that nicer? And then it was a look to Moreton,
like looks over her shoulder to like a prison guard

(01:33:49):
or something, and it's just like this bitch basically right
and there. I mean, I yeah, I do as far
as that character goes, and I think that your point
is extremely valid. But her like lawlessness of like she
buys into the Roxy hype, but then the second it's
not working in her favor anymore, she's like the blonde
wig is in the trash and you know, her allegiances

(01:34:12):
with whoever can make her the most money. Yeah, so yeah, yeah,
do you have anything else? I think that is this
movie does pass the Bechtel test. I'm sure of it. Yes, Oh,
it's super does They're often they're often talking about killing men,

(01:34:32):
but for us that has the test. But but even
without it, I mean, it does pass plenty of times,
between Velmot and Roxy, between Roxy and Mama Morton, between
Velmot and Mama Morton, between Um. Actually there's a good question.
I don't know how many of the prisoners are actually named.
I don't think that many. Yeah, if any, because I'm

(01:34:55):
racking my brain and I don't know if we get
names for an even not let me fact check that.
I mean, it's possible that it exists in the state.
I don't know in terms of adaptation, but I don't
believe you learn their names in the um in the movie.
You know so. But but that said, it does pass.
I think it also passes between Mary Sunshine and Roxy.

(01:35:16):
Like there are a number of dynamic, highly motivated female
characters who talk to each other about all sorts of
ship in this movie. But as far as our nipple
scale in which we rate the movie examining it through
an intersectional feminist lens, this is another tricky one. While

(01:35:38):
it is commenting on and providing satire on these like
double standards that are foisted upon women. It makes the
same mistake of only focusing on the narratives of middle class,
conventionally attractive white him in, which is also what the

(01:36:02):
media was doing at the time. So I like, again,
the precedent was set, so I understand that that's sort
of why the adaptations went that way as well, But
I don't like it. I would it would be more
interesting to me, For example, if dynamics were explored in

(01:36:22):
terms of, yes, there are these attractive white women who
are exploiting the privilege that they have to get exonerated
from their crimes that they are clearly guilty of, versus
the women of color who were right alongside them, who
didn't have those same privileges to exploit, and how what like,

(01:36:45):
what are their outcomes? I'd like to know. So I
think that, um, you know, in an ideal world, the
movie would have explored that more. But that's also not
what people in two thousand two were really concerned about doing. Yeah,
it's it's a bummer, But if this were to ever
be adapted again, and you know, it seems like this

(01:37:07):
movie gets adapted every forty years, or something. So yeah,
against against the wishes of the person who wrote the play.
Go figure right, because it's all it was also a
nineteen twenties seven I want to say, Cecil be Silent movie. Yeah,
who I wasn't able to track down. It seems like

(01:37:28):
kind of a rare I don't know, I didn't I
wasn't able to find it. Yeah, I mean, it's just
like a super popular story and unfortunately it's like, I mean,
it's still relevant. But if I completely agree that it's
you know, kind of begging to be updated and modernized,
and the issues that it's like, you know whatever, it's
extra frustrating because it's like all either the source material

(01:37:51):
and the characters are there, you're just not using them.
You're not exploring their right exploring them. They're just kind
of left there. We only know that a woman stabbed
her husband ten times and another woman. Good for her,
and it's good for but I need more information, yeah, exactly.

(01:38:11):
So um, for those reasons, I'll give the movie a three.
It's getting some extra points because it is a movie
I very much enjoy. It is very watchable. The song
and dance numbers are spectacular, So three nipples and they
go to the women whose stories have been unrepresented, revolving

(01:38:37):
around this like microcosm of lady murderers in the jazz
era of Chicago. What about you, Jamie, I'm going for
I think that this movie is in this story are
doing so much. I completely agree with you that, for

(01:38:57):
for all this story does to examine, you know, kind
of weaponized white fragility, Um, it does not examine the
issues that women of color were facing during this time
specific and it's it does come down, you know, particularly
because this story is commenting on the prison system to
some extent, and the prison system in the US, especially

(01:39:20):
disproportionately affects black people, specifically black men. And there's and
and it's not like we know anything about A. Diggs's character,
and he's the only black man who appears in the
whole movie. So I do think that there's absolutely issues
there that if this were to be updated again, and
as much as I don't really care for like the
rebooty culture, I would be I would be down for

(01:39:42):
another and updated version of Chicago because there is so
much there, and um, I think that particularly if people
of color were included in in the production behind the camera,
there's so much to work with, and there could be
a lot more examined, so that, I mean, and that
and the Weinstein involvement I think are the main things

(01:40:04):
that are going against this movie for me. But I
just think that this movie is doing so much cool
stuff in terms of showing us some truly like despicable
across the board female protagonists that you still deeply understand
why they're doing what they're doing. You're given the proper

(01:40:24):
historical context for who they are and what they're doing.
And and it's I mean, I I don't think that
there's a lot of movies that are like fine to watch,
that are massively successful, that examine topics like this effectively,
that examine topics like you know, why were these women

(01:40:46):
driven to commit murder? And I think that it's pretty
clear what drives them. It's the you know, oppressive expectations
of the men that run the world around them. I
can't really think of the movie that better kind of
indicts this inflammatory American media culture that has just gotten worse,

(01:41:06):
you know, a hundred years out from this in a
really engaging, funny, smart way. And I and I like
that that Velma and Roxy end up uh it's kind
of it's like a depressing but positive ending where they
are able to they have to kill and lie and
do a hole this fucked up ship to do it,

(01:41:27):
but they are able to finally kind of live their
lives the way they wanted to and in a way
that they should have just been able to. But in
order to do it, all this fucked up stuff happened,
had to happen. Yeah, I mean, it truly is for me,
mainly that women of color are not given the narrative
importance that they deserve in this story. But I think

(01:41:49):
that you see also Lucy Lou like she's in the
movie three minutes basically a cameo. But I do think
that there are a lot of different kinds of women
that are highly motivated, that are making their own choices,
that are fucking up, that are succeeding, that very thoroughly
understand the tools of oppression being used against them and

(01:42:11):
spinning them in their advantage to get away with some
funked up stuff. And you don't see that kind of
story with women very often, I feel like, especially in
like historical movies, and so I just I think this
movie is doing so much that in this musical in general.
I like that it's adapted by um, that the source

(01:42:31):
material is from a woman, and that the story is
still generally honored. I like that there's a lot of
queer representation in the production of this movie, although it
is very white. Um. I just I don't know. I
think that this movie is doing a lot that even
current movies aren't able to do. And I just like
enjoy when a movie is able to say a lot

(01:42:52):
without feeling like you're getting bashed over the head with
a frying pan. And I think that this movie is
a good example of that. Uma and any movie that
is fun and funny and musical and draws the conclusion
that humanity is a lost cause is my favorite kind

(01:43:13):
of movies. So I'm gonna give it four nipples, and
I'm going to give nipple to Queen Latifa. I'm going
to give a nipple to Richard Gere because he's my crush.
I'm going to give a nipple to Katherine Data Jones
because she's my other crush. And I'm gonna give the
final nipple to Lucy lou Hell. Yeah, well, Jamie, happy birthday,

(01:43:39):
Thank you, Thank you for watching this movie for me.
I love it so much. Of course, where can people
follow you? Jamie Wow, I get my birthday flugs. Listen
to ack Cast. It's uh listen to ack Cast. It's
still coming out right now, and it will be I
think it will be releasing its final episode if I'm

(01:44:00):
working on schedule, uh next week. It's an in depth
look at the Kathy comic strips and kind of what
they say about the time they appeared in and I
was able to use a lot of research I did
for that podcast to have this discussion today. And there's
episodes about movements of feminism and how deeply flawed and

(01:44:20):
centered on middle class and above white women. Uh they
were there. I just finished working on an episode that's
all about the formation of American beauty standards and how
mired they are in imperialism and colonialism and white supremacy
and all. I mean. It's a fun podcast because it's
about Kathy comic strips, but it's also a lot of

(01:44:42):
still suppressing serious ship as well. So uh yeah, that's
if you want to give me a birthday present, give
the battle Cast five stars on iTunes and listen to
act Cast because I worked hard on it, Yes, and
give a cast five Stars as well. While you're at it,
might as well at hurt Wow. Jamie Well, I love

(01:45:03):
you dearly. I wish you the happiest of birthdays. I'm
so glad we do this show together. Yeah, we do
almost five years, baby, I know. I hope to I
hope that we're in the same city again soon so
that we can actually see each other and hang beginning
of September. Um you can follow us on Twitter and

(01:45:28):
Instagram at bectel Cats. You can go to our Patreon
ak Matreon subscribe for five dollars a month. It gets
you two bonus episodes every month at patreon dot com,
slash becktel Cast. And then we've got merch. Tell us
about the merch, Jamie Well. You can buy it and
it's at de public dot com, slash the backdel Cast.

(01:45:50):
Go ever, get the merchant if you're so inclined, it's
a blast, it's a blessing. It's a gift for you
to have merch to consume products, because as we live
in a society, then you know, get some or don't.
We won't know the difference. We truly won't, We truly
profoundly won't. And that's Chicago bye,

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