Cruel Intentions with Jackie Johnson

Caitlin and Jamie are nice and they had nothing but nice intentions when they invited special guest Jackie Johnson to discuss Cruel Intentions.

(This episode contains spoilers)

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Beck dol Cast, the questions asked if movies
have women and um are all their discussions just boyfriends
and husbands or do they have individualism the patriarchy? Zef
and best start changing it with the beck del Cast. Hello,
and welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My name is Jamie
Loftus and my name is Caitlin Dronte, and this is

(00:21):
our podcast about the portrayal of women in movies. You
bet you, We talk you, Yeah, you bet you. Hey
quick plug at the top of the show. What I
know So not like crazy, but we have an important
announcement that you may or may not already know about.
But we're doing a bunch of live shows coming up. Yeah,

(00:42):
get used to it. We're and and and and here's
the twist. It's on both coasts, both coasts. Yes, we've
got our East Coast. Are three days super tour coming
up on the East Coast starting Saturday, November three in
Philadelphia at Good Good Comedy Theater, which by the way,
is run by past guest of the show, Kate Bamford.
Yes it is. We're covering Waiting to Exhale with guest

(01:04):
Aaron Whack at that show and then on Sunday, November four,
we're doing a show in Washington, d C. Surprise, we're
doing two shows, but one of them already sold out,
so what's the point of even plugging that one? But
there are still tickets left for the show that's on
Sunday November four at three thirty pm and afternoon show

(01:25):
after Bring Me a Mike's Baby. That one's at the
Drafthouse Comedy Theater in Washington, d C. Uh And we're
going to be covering The Nightmare Before Christmas with guest
Natalie McGill. And finally, Monday, November five, in New York City,
as part of the New York Comedy Festival, we are
covering The Princess Diaries with Marshall bell Ski at Baby's

(01:46):
all right, so we're stoked for that too. Yes. So
for for tickets and more details, you can go to
our website becktel Cats dot com, click on the live
appearances tab and everything you need to know. We'll be
there see there. Oh and then also the other coast,
the West coast. Oh yeah, okay, So we also have
a show on Saturday, November ten in Los Angeles at

(02:08):
the Ruby, where we'll be covering the fifth Elements. I've
never seen it with our guest and friend, Danielle Radford.
She's the best, So for tickets to that show. Also
got to bechtel cast dot com and click on live
appearances and if you live in the middle of the country,
let us know where we should be performing and we'd

(02:29):
love to see you. Yeah, all right, kisses, bring me
my hard lamon name. So we talk about the portrayal
of women in movies, we use the Bechtel test to
just give us a jumping off point. The Bechtel Test
for us is a test that you apply to movies.

(02:51):
It requires that there are two female identifying characters with names.
They have to speak to each other, and their conversation
cannot be about men. Sounds like a real boring movie.
I know women should not talk, and if they do talk,
they better. Men should be demo it really quick. Let's

(03:13):
demo it, Okay, Kaitlin, Hey Jamie, how's your soccer game? Yesterday?
My soccer game went well? We won. I know you
want to go again. I'm a fan. Thank you so much.
The one and also the one time I went, someone
got really very badly injured. So really a lot of
a lot of juicy stuff at the soccer game, speaking
of injuries that happened towards the end of something today's movie.

(03:39):
So we're talking about cruel intentions. And here to join
us in the conversation, we have a host of the
Makeup and Beauty podcast, Match Beaute, Jackie Johnson Hippy. I'm
so excited to discuss a movie that I'm embarrassed to
say used to be a really important movie to me

(04:02):
as a kid. I thought it was so good and funny.
Don't be embarrassed. This is truly the story of this podcast.
I mean, I'm ashamed rewatching this. I was just shaking
my what did the kids say, shake my damn head?
I was shaking my damn head. I couldn't believe this movie.
I cannot wait to discuss it. So, Jackie, what's your
history with this movie? I saw this movie in theaters.

(04:25):
I do believe my mom bought tickets for me, and
I want to say my best friend Lauren Marty, because
my mom's like cool like that kind of like the
cool mom. Yeah, so, you know, very open parenting style.
Because I wanted to see pacy ak Joshua Jackson. I
saw him on like MTV news, like Kurt Loder was like, Hey,
what's up. There's a new movie out. You know, Joshua

(04:46):
Jackson Star on the Rise, got this little part, and
I said, I'm seeing that one please. So I went
and saw it. I loved it. I thought it was hysterical.
I love the music. I loved all the hot actors
in it. I mean, I this movie up with a spoon.
I quoted it all throughout my youth. I still, unfortunately
have it memorized because long term memory it sticks. It

(05:09):
sticks with Jaggie Ja so m I but I hadn't
rewatched it in a while. And can I just say
that this movie is very problematic now in any ways,
and we're going to get into it, but damn, I'm
just I'm telling you this is what women are shown.
Of Course, we all have issues. Of course, we all
have problems in the pagriarchy taking us down. I mean,

(05:31):
this movie is complete garbage in terms of women and
treatment and the me too movement and just god, I'm
ashamed of everyone involved me I think, although I will
say soundtrack on fleek. Soundtrack, I mean, like the Placebo

(05:51):
song opening it up, color Blind, you know, coffee and
TV by Blur Love Me by the Card Against. I mean, damn,
the music is on point, but everything else it's upset down.
That's going to be my new favorite thing. Whenever something
completely baffling happens plot wise out of nowhere in a movie,

(06:12):
I'm just gonna be like, do do do do? Do? Do Do? Do? Do? Do?
The way it ends is so psycho. My My history
with this movie is um just for for all you
beg to land out there. Caitlin and Sammy and I
hung out after the live show the other night, the
Edward Scissorhands Show, and watched Cruel Intentions and Eight Chicken

(06:35):
Wings and boy, that was my first time seeing I
can't believe you wouldn't see it. Yeah, I don't know.
How did you not say that I hadn't seen it? Yeah?
And I saw it like away two days before our screening.
It's so weird. So it was a huge I mean
among my circle of friends and my culture, like growing
up in like the late nineties, early two thousands in Dallas,

(06:57):
suburb real Dallas, this movie was huge. We all quoted it,
we watched it. I mean, I remember, like, let's all
watch David Days and like we popp and Coral Intentions
and have a laugh. So the fact y'all hadn't seen this,
I'm sure I think we're the weird ones, though I
think for sure. Yeah, I don't know how I missed
it either, because in ninety nine I was thirteen, like

(07:20):
I was the age prime demo, because I think I
was like fourteen. Yeah, yeah, ninety nine is the year
of teens lying to each other and making bets to
have sex with other teens, because this is the year
that cool Intentions comes out, that ten Things I Hate
about You comes out, that She's All that comes out.
So it's just like, what a time to be a lot,

(07:42):
I know, and honestly a beautiful time. What a beautiful
I mean, looking back, there were some damn issues, but
I love that era. Being a kid of that era
was such a perfect time to me. It was fun
music day on the fashion, there was so so much
of a blank when Andy two was thriving. It was

(08:03):
SI to the movies. Though we're instanley problematic and influenced
our young brain hundred percent. But yeah, somehow I missed
Cruel Intentions. Didn't see it until last week, And this
is I think the most insane movie we've covered on
the podcast where it's like it's gets so problematic that

(08:24):
I just grew numb and was just enjoying the ride
because I was just like, this movie is a string
of like really pithy sexual assaults. The whole movie is
like quip quip, and now I'm coercing someone into sex
who doesn't actually mean Sebastian is a fuck boy to
a T. If you google funck boy, he'll come up,
you know with that rama noodle j T Hair, I

(08:47):
mean he This movie triggered me in so many ways,
and let's talk about it, because damn it, I'm fired
up Monday morning. I'm fired up for The one moment
in the movie that really absolutely destroyed me is because
a lot of the scenes that are supposed to be
sexy in this movie are not sexy at all. They're

(09:07):
completely like or for me. Anyways, There's that one scene
where Sarah Michelle Geller is supposed to be like teasing
Ryan Filippy, which is I love that. I'm just gonna
say his name like that. Yeah, my mom thinks Ryan
Phillippi's name was pronounced flippy like f l I P
p y so so Sarah Michelle Geller is teasing quote

(09:29):
unquote Ryan Philippe, and she's like laying on him sunny
side up and just sort of like moving her body
around on him like a limp noodle. And then he's
like looking almost to camera with this like very disturbing
erection phase. And it was the least sexy thing I've
ever seen, is like this sunny side up gyration, and

(09:52):
his hands on the body were like so like you
could see the pressure he was putting on her, like
palming her, like he wasn't groping her or even like
softly caressing her. It was like a wet fish, just
like slapping against her arm. It felt bad for both
of them in that scene because like that was the
kind of like supposed to be sexy scene where you're like, oh,
there are thirty people in the room with them, and

(10:14):
it shows she was America sweetheart at this moment. She
was buff, being homophobic, being sociopath narcissists. Dare I say cruel?
I mean this movie, let's tell Yeah, So let me
do the recap of the story, which, oh god, okay,

(10:38):
I'll do my best. So the story focuses on Catherine,
which is Sarah Michelle Geller's character and Sebastian, which is
Ryan Philippe. They are step siblings who lived together in
New York City and they are like rich kid private
school elites, and they are also the worst people in

(10:59):
the world old Throughout the movie we see them like
using people, they're manipulating people, and generally they have cruel intentions.
Stop it, I believe it or not, it's not an
ironic title. So Catherine meets uh cetile Selma Blair's character,

(11:19):
who's Cell Blair by the way, in this movie playing
a fifteen year old huh okay, had to get that
out there. Yeah, that's Hollywood baby, Yeah, I mean that's egregious,
that's wild yea. And in order to like compensate for
the fact that she's playing a character over ten years
and she actually is, but she's acting so obscenely childlike

(11:40):
that it's she like overdid it, and it's just very distracting.
Not to put some on blast, but really bad jobs.
I really liked her performance as a when I saw
it as a kid, I thought she was hyah paride.
I mean they directed her to act like that, so
it's really not on her. So Cecile is starting school

(12:03):
with Katherine in the Fall, and Katherine does not like
Cecil because she stole Katherine's boyfriend Court. So Katherine wants
to ruin Cecil's reputation so that Court won't like her anymore. Right,
boyfriend named after a place to play a sport. It's
a super like old money name Court. Yes, I'm so

(12:24):
lower middle class, but I had no idea. Never already
my fair share of courts. They were all Fiji's, okay,
all my Greeks out there. Oh boy. So now Katherine
asks her stepbrothers Sebastian to seduce Cecile so that it
ruins her goody goody reputation. Meanwhile, Sebastian is like, I'm

(12:47):
tired of having sex with all these debutantes. They're so boring,
So he wants more of a conquest and he learns
about a net, which is Reese Witherspoon's character, who is
also going to be starting at their school in the Fall.
Reese is still great in this movie, is even though
the dialogue is so cheesy and horrific at times, they

(13:11):
all sell it. They do. They're committing to sure. That's
why looking back at this movie, you're like, oh my gosh,
what happened. So a nets whole thing is that she's
a virgin and that she's waiting to have sex, presumably
till marriage, or like at least till she finds someone
who she's in love with. So Sebastian decides that he's

(13:34):
going to make a net his conquest and take her virginity.
And Katherine's all like, you can't do that. That's out
of your league, even for you. So she's like, let's
make a wager. If Katherine wins, she gets Sebastian's cool
convertible car. If he wins, he can fuck her in
any hole he wants. We need to, like every nineties

(13:58):
teen movie is made of an a very sinister assaulted
bet yes where it's she and then sings Sarah Michelle
Geller in that sinister shot where she's like, what is
what's the last? You like? Any She's like anyway, and
then you're just like, I hate this. I like that
she sex positive and confident in herself. Yes, and we'll

(14:19):
talk about she gives like a monologue that's it's worth
unpacking everywhere. Yes, yes for sure. Yeah, And then side note,
Sebastian has a journal that he's keeping where he details
all of his you know, like bets and lies and
conquests and stuff with all these women. So you were
saying it's an early incarnation of the mean Girls Burned,

(14:42):
but I also feel it's sort of like his zanga
or his tumbler. Yeah, analog or perhaps like journals, you know,
like what what would be our equivalent? Right? Yeah, So
now Sebastian, he's going, he's trying to seduce a net
and she it is not having it at first, and
then meanwhile, but wear her dad, don't worry, don't you

(15:05):
don't you worry? One group at a time, right, Meanwhile,
one nagging at a time, god, one monster. One just
being in a pool exposing himself. Yeah, he's like, me,
show you what we're implying is a horse's dick, but

(15:25):
we don't actually see it. So there's no receipts on
the size of Ryan Philippe's penis, but the butt is good. However,
he is fully exposing himself without her consent, and she's like,
oh this is and then he yells at her for
her to turn around because the owners this movie fucking
upset me. I no wonder I like had such an

(15:47):
issue with you know, like when you're at a party
and a guy like touches your lower back and you
just kind of go along with it because you're like, well,
I don't want to be rude. It's like, no wonder
that should happened to me in my twenties because of
this fucking movie. Right nowadays, if somebody did that, I go, hey,
get your fucking hand off me. Anyway, keep going clearly
sucking upset. This movie up set me. He's just going

(16:07):
to be a therapy sessions, just like the movie is
condescending to where did you know? It's in this scene
like right after where Sebastian takes Cecil's virginity, there's a
bowl of cherries next to the bed, and it's just like,
come on right, sorry, I wonder what they're trying to say.
They're okay. So meanwhile, Cecile, she's into her cellow teacher Ronald.

(16:32):
Catherine's teaching sectial how to kiss so she can be
good at kissing Ronald because we've got to please men, right,
got to get that kiss. I'm a great kiss also,
all of that a great kiss boy. Then Sebastian assaults Cecile,
but that is not what the movie would have you
believe happened. They think it's funny. Man, there's some goofy

(16:56):
music playing in the background. There's some we should make
a super good of, like assaults happening in movies with
a goofy soundtrack. Benny Hill like, no, no, he's so
this character that we are already supposed to be suspending
or disbelieved to be, like, oh, she's fifty. The way
that scene goes is he basically is like, you have

(17:17):
to kiss me. He's like he says like yeah. He's
like all I want is a kiss, and she's like, oh,
that's all. She essentially wants to leave. She's like, I'm uncomfortable.
I'm leaving because he's basically says, get naked. I want
to take your picture. She says, I want to leave.
He goes, you can't leave, traps her and blackmails her,
I'm going to call your mom and tell her. So

(17:38):
she's I'll do anything, Please don't tell my mom. Okay, well,
let me kiss you. She goes, okay, I guess, and
then he grabs the draw strong of her pants, pulls
her pants down, and she's like, what are you doing,
what are you doing? Clearly upset and he goes, you
said I could kiss you and just starts going down
and then a promise is a promise? Gilts her into
it will unpack this whole scene in a moment, but
it's upsetting up. Meanwhile, Annette and Sebastian are falling in love,

(18:04):
like what, And then Katherine has sex with Ronald the
cello teacher, and then Sebastian and finally have sex, which
makes Katherine jealous because she's like, I thought I was
going to have sex with my stepbrother, which she apparently
wanted to do anywhere. So Katherine's like, oh, your reputation

(18:24):
is going to be ruined Sebastian if you you know,
blah blah blah. So he's like, you're right, I am
going to tell Annette that I don't love her, and
then she's like, you eightyot, you ran away from love
the first chance you've got, just because you thought I
was going to ruin your reputation. And then he's like,
you're right, I'm an idiot. So he goes and tries

(18:45):
to make amends with Annette, and then there's a crazy
scene where he and Ronald get in a fist fight,
he's thrown into traffic. He gets hit by a cab
and not hard, and then in an accident that would
maybe break a couple of ribs but not kill him,
but he dies. The end of the movie is Catherine

(19:10):
at like the funeral service, and she's like, oh my god,
Oh how sad. And then there's something like bustling around
in the crowd. She's like, what's going on? And then
she goes outside and everyone has a copy of Sebastian's journal,
which outs her as this horrible, manipulative kid, cruel intentioned woman.

(19:36):
It also outs Sebastian as a horrible person, which no
one seems to care about. And then it ends with
Reese Witherspoon driving Ryan Phillippies creepy journal into the sunset
because they're still in love. Even in Ryan Phillippes death,

(19:57):
she still loves him. And somehow she got the pink
slip for the car, which y'all never understand. How did
he put that in his will knowing that he was
going to get it by a m after meeting her
a week ago, But somehow the bitch got the jag.
She drives away with it and that's the end. So
she won the bet. She actually I the fact that

(20:22):
it's they're supposed to be. She's insulted in the journal
we see it's like, stupid, bit, you won't fuck and
then she's like, I love him forever and then drives
away in his car. I was like, what the funk
is this movie? Like, usually, when I'm seeing one of
these movies for the first time, you can at least understand, like, oh,

(20:43):
I understand, even though I find it to be problematic
and fucked up, I can understand what this was supposed
to have been viewed when it came out that I
can't get there. I can't get to they're still in love.
I think you know too far away, because I'm telling
you I love this movie and I didn't see anything
wrong with it. I'm ashamed to say that, but that's

(21:06):
truly teenager truth. I mean, it's unfortunate that that's the
culture that I grew up in, but that's what we
were given to consume as media. And I thought this
movie was hilarious, funny, I thought I was great, and
I'm this movie sucks. It sucking, sucks, it sucks. And
with with that, let's take a quick break and then

(21:27):
we will be back to unpacked the intentions that are
cruel and we're back, all right. So yeah, I mean
where to jump in? How about within the first five
minutes of the movie, Sebastian has revenge porn an innocent person. Yes,

(21:51):
how about that, that's a good place to start. He assaults,
I would argue his therapist verbally, sexually, and then he
revenge points her daughter. Huh just because for no reason,
just her fun. He says later that she did that
because she was overcharging him for therapy, and so you know,

(22:12):
how do you compensate for that? Is with human body?
And it's oh, it's just horrible. So yeah, right away
we learn about what a cruel intentioned man Sebastian is.
And then the conversation that his therapist has with her daughter,
who is played by Terror Reid, Terry's are like, he
put nude pictures of me on the internet, And then

(22:35):
her mom says, how could you be so stupid? So
she's a victim blaming her own daughter. The Bechtel test
passing exchange what they like, you dumb slut, your dumb slut,
you dumb slut. And then Terry's like, Mom, are you there?
She like that does pass its test, So yeah, that's

(23:00):
gets up Sebastian's character pretty well. And then he continues
throughout the rest of the movie to keep doing heinous
things like this, except that he's the kind were rooting for.
He does nothing to redeem himself at all. I would
argue he gets hit by a car. That's the best
thing he does in the whole movie is die. And
this is one again one of those movies that it

(23:22):
seems very prevalent in the eighties and nineties and and
probably the two thousands as well, where it's like rich
kids saying, like, my parents who love me and give
me everything I want fuck them, like and and we're
supposed to be like my hero just so bizarre. Well,
we never meet their parents in this movie, so it's

(23:43):
kind of hard to tell what their relationship is like.
But it's still like we have to assume perhaps not great,
perhaps not great. I think they're both seeking attention from
a really sad place due to the fact that your
parents can be rich and give you, you know, physically
anything you want aunt but if they're not giving you
attention and love, then you know, none of that matters,

(24:05):
and I think that's clearly what's happening. The parents are
off dealing with their own ship all the time, and
the kids are desperately seeking attention, right literally fucking each
other their sunny side up in each other. Like keep
an eye on these kids. So I want to talk
about the romantic pursuit, specifically of Sebastian pursuing a Net

(24:27):
because she's heard that he has a bad reputation and
she immediately doesn't like him. She says the line, it
amazes me that someone is charming as you could be
so manipulative, which they kind of go hand right, right.
It's like Reads is supposed to be a smart character, right.
And then in the first few scenes that we see

(24:48):
her in talking to Sebastian, she is like, she seems smart,
She is headstrong, She has like a value system that
she is not wavering from. She calls him out on
his book ship. You know. The first thing he does
is when he they meet, she's on a horse, he
literally grabs her body to get her off the horse

(25:09):
for no reason. And she doesn't call him out. She
kind of looks at him and goes thank you, which
again that's what I would have done in this situation
at her age, and I probably did, but pass me off.
I wish you would have gone, hey, why don't you
grab me? I can get off the horse on my own, right,
you take my hand. He literally grow us her body. Yeah,

(25:30):
oh do you need help. It's like he won't let
one thing go by without being a fucking creeper in
every way. It's awful. And then and characters like Reese's
almost sucked me even more because it sells that like
false idea of like, oh, this girl is smart, this
girl is capable, which which is true. But then the
second she can fall for a fucking psycho creep, she

(25:53):
does immediately, which just sells the idea to like young
smart girls of like, no, you should do this anyway.
It's like you, you know, you can be sure, yet
like girl power, you can be smart, but you still
have to funk every creep who hits on you. Like
it's just horrible. And part of the reason that she
falls for him is because he's lying to her and
he's having other people lie on his behalf about Oh,

(26:14):
his reputation, it's bullshit. You know, he's actually a pretty
nice guy. What do you think about his homophobic blackmail
who could forget we'll unpack that. But then he's you know,
pursuing her as a bet for most of the time,
but then he actually does start to develop feelings for her.
And then that's the movie asking us to be sympathetic

(26:34):
to him and root for him because he's sofening up.
He was a bad he was a cruel intentioned guy,
but now makes one goofy face and he's like, you
know what, I'm a changed man. But also he isn't. No,
he's not, and to the very end of the movie,
he's still being horrible to everyone around him. But again,
this is the movie, like we are, the movie is

(26:56):
asking us to root for him. He's our protagonists who
were like, oh, I hope he succeeds, and even though
he dies, we're supposed to feel something about it, or
that's what the movie wants us to feel. And I'm
sure you know, as a young teen who saw this movie,
uh yeah, everyone was like, oh no, he died, that's

(27:16):
so sad. Oh now the death is so weird. That
death is so it's like lazy writing. It's a d
sex market. Yeah, like, let's just kill him. And ever
they were like, Okay, here we are. We're backed into
a corner here, so we're gonna have him, you know,
give her the journal. She's gonna read it, change your mind.

(27:38):
She's on the street, she's looking for him. Uh what
do we do, guys? I don't know. We can't buy
a taxi cut in print. I mean, it's very lazy.
I also don't understand how her receiving his journal makes
her realize, oh, he does love me after all, because
in the journal he explains his plan to manipulate her

(28:01):
and steal her virginity. Yeah, and then she's like, cool, dude, dude,
you know, you know, she's obviously very easily manipulated. I
think he definitely added an addendum at the end that
was like, but throughout this process, I actually felt for her,
and I've changed and I feel terrible. And she accepted

(28:22):
the apology, you know, so that's why that happened. But
can I just say they showed a page of the
book of his journal at the end, the photo copies.
I paused TV. I couldn't read that ship. That was
the worst handwriting I ever. It was like a doctor prescription,
like scribble, and I was like, who fucking read this?

(28:44):
Can any of these kids read this ship? I couldn't
read a damn word of it, so who knows what
he even said. But the takeaway of that journal is
supposed to be Yah, Sarah Michelle Geller's a real bit
like he gets let off the hook essentially why yeah?
And then and then also there's like the teacher who

(29:05):
comes up behind her and like takes away her coke necklace, which, narratively,
how could he have seen that already? He hasn't come outside,
But sure, fine, they're good. Plan didn't think about that.
I mean when that happened in the theater, I remember
just being like, yaw, queen, Like I was like, damn,
revenge is a bitter fucking you know fish. I thought

(29:26):
that was like the coolest I'm telling you, I ate
that ship up. When he pulls out the scoop and
it flies in the air and the look on her face,
I was just like, yeah, drugs, look at you nowhere, man,
Like I love them. The one good message of the movie. Yeah,
although I did google, well, I didn't google, but I

(29:47):
was like I want one of those. Not that I
do coke, but I was like, I want like a
drug necklace. That to me was a really exciting idea.
Maybe I'll put my like my emergency powder in it. Yeah,
your vitamin B twelve supplements to give you energy. Well,
like Jamie, like you were saying, Sebastian has completely let

(30:08):
off the hook, like he he is just as complicit
and just as much of a villain. More. Yeah, I
didn't see Sarah Michelle Geller rape anybody, because he assaulted Ceceeal.
He is assaulted type yes, like and and and that's
just the movie what we saw, Like imagine the back
pages that book. A bunch of women at that school.

(30:31):
How do you think they're feeling right now, because you
know what I mean, like how horrible. Their whole lives
were just blasted on front of everybody, and he out everyone,
including himself. And this movie takes place over the course
of three or four days, and so it's like he's
been doing this for a little longer than that. But
even so, maybe a week or two crazy because because

(30:52):
he and rees haven't known each other for more than
a little more than a week, maybe it's hard. Well
that's I think this is other four School gets back.
But at the beginning of the movie that Cecil was like, oh,
Ronald's teaching me Cello over the summer, as if the
movie takes place over the course of a whole summer.
It's really it's unclear. It makes it seem like it's

(31:12):
a few days. It could be as much as a month,
or a couple of months, or right like a week.
It's it's hard to tell. Probably not thinking about it
that hard. In the people writing this movie, you're not
concerned about consistency, the value of a human life. There's
a lot of things they're not worried about. It's just
insane to me. The movie poises Sebastian is like, oh,

(31:37):
he redeemed himself, And I wonder if they made him
die just to make him seem more sympathetic, because otherwise
the story is Sebastian and a net ending up together.
And then it's like, well, what does that relationship look
like then, because like now she knows the truth, and
like where do you go from? How do you build?

(31:59):
I don't know the origin, I haven't read the source material,
but does that character get hit by a taxi and
they give their journal out or how? I don't know.
Cruel Intentions is adapted from a novel by a man
whose name is so French that I cannot beare something
it was written in seventeen eighty two or published then,

(32:22):
which absolutely tracks and and keeps with this at another
late nineties trend of like trying to adapt like old
ask books into movies for teenagers. Um, right, because she's
all that was an adaptation of Pygmalion, right, yes, and
Ten Things I Hate About You was a Shakespeare So yeah.

(32:42):
It's another another sinister media trend where everything is derivative.
You know. It's like, oh, the sexes ins in the
late seventeen hundred is still applicable today and apparently, I
mean no one proved them wrong. Um, and the book,
it looks like the Ryan Phillippe character dies in a duel,
like in the fight with Ronald, so I guess they're like, well,

(33:04):
we can't have Ronald kill him because that would be
out of nowhere, and they can't duel, so let's just
do the yark. He also died saving saving Annette. He
died a hero. Annette was trying to break up the
fight and she got flung into traffic and got up
very slowly, let's be honest, very very slowly, and She's like, oh,

(33:29):
I'm in the middle of the street. Oh a car
is coming what? And Sebastian pushes her out of the
way to save her and in turn gets hit. So
maybe that's another element to why everyone's forgiven him. Yeah,
I don't know the movie jumping in front of a
cab for somebody, that's very I don't people, I can

(33:51):
think of it like that. Would I guess I would
probably do it no matter what. Instinctively, sure, because I'm
such a people pleaser. But I hope I don't find
out if I'm being honest. But if we do die
is people pass just die in the pursuit of trying
not to give a perceiving Yeah, I mean the cab
was going what also like screeched on his brakes, like

(34:11):
you heard him screeched his break so by the decelerating
is slowed down where I know, right, we're not doctors.
Sebastian has some kind of like um autoimmune disease where
he was we you know, he bruises easily, and the
blood somewhere he would have been carrying bruises from the
sunny side up. Then then when it cuts to him

(34:32):
and his injuries, he has a few scratches on his
forehead and he has some bloody knuckles and that's it, like,
you know, unless he's got some like severe hemorrhagame or
like a traumatic brain injury. Like right when we're not
on the adaptation, this is not the only adaptation of
this French novel that came out, Dangerous Liaisons based on

(34:54):
the same fucking book. Yes, I can't remember it or not,
but I have not seen it. But I will watch
anything with Glenn Close in it, so I will wash
it or wait, dangerously that's not the one where she
cooks his bunny, right, That's what I was just thinking
that say attraction, Yes, I got it. I also, when

(35:16):
we were watching this movie, thought we were watching I
thought cruel Intentions. I was like, oh, that's the one
where Kathy Bates locks a guy in a house. That's misery.
So I was in for a full well, I thought
we were watching misery. We were not. We're watching something
way worse pretty much, but just as violent. And and

(35:37):
say which I mean really quick, say what you will
about this movie. But Christine Branski does play a character
named Bunny, so not all bad. Well, she's incredible in
the movie, although problematic in many ways. She slays Arsky,
I have no notes. Let's talk about that for a moment.
So there is an interracial romance between Cecile and Ronald.

(36:00):
Ronald is fooling. And also, if my daughter brought home
a Juilliard composer Chells, I'd be like, honey, thank you,
you did a good job. But he's not good enough.
So mainstream movies generally do not like to feature interracial
romances on screen. When they do, it's often a big

(36:23):
plot point of the movie, rather than just treating that
relationship like it's a normal thing that doesn't need to
be heavily commented on. So movies like Get Out, Guess
Who's Coming to Dinner, Save the Last Dance, Jungle Fever, Holes,
Our Favorite Loving Um, just to name a few, they
all have major plot points that derive like like that

(36:46):
that sounds like I never was anywhere. I mean this,
I can't believe I haven't seen it, being a huge fan,
I've read the book. Oh the movie is pretty good, Okay,
so um, these movies all have major plot points that
derive from two people of different races being together. I
would say a recent recent exception to this is to
all the boys I've loved before. Um, I still gotta

(37:08):
watch it. Oh it's good. Have you seen Greatest Showman? Yes,
that one has one too. Oh right, but oh god,
that movie was terrible. Um I cried twice. But that's fine.
Oh sure, sure I would probably cry. I would probably
hate it and cry. That's a really good Basically, I
just think that there should be more stories that normalize
an interracial relationship, rather than saying, like, oh my fucking god,

(37:32):
look how big of a freaking deal it is for
a white person to date a non white person, but
they really talk about it. So Cruel Intentions makes a
fairly big deal of an interracial relationship where uh Cecile
as a white woman and her cello teacher Ronald is
a black man, and they are in love, and Catherine

(37:55):
uses their interracial relationship as fuel to seek revenge on
Cecil by telling Cecil's disapproving racist mother. Well, it also
doesn't help that the only black man in this movie
is praying on a child. Right. We we don't know
how old he is, right, but he's attending pre Juilliard,

(38:17):
which I don't know what that means or what age
that would make it's possible he's also a child. I mean,
I guess because you know, I agree with all all that.
I will say, like when you are somebody's teacher, there's
a power dynamic and I'm not a fan of that.
I mean, have you y'all have taken improv classes in
this town? You know how it goes men teachers, you know,

(38:39):
So it's not cute. Sometimes totally agree. So like the
fact that the only man of color is abusing the
power dynamic, whether he's a child or not. Although I
will say he didn't touch her, but those letters are
a little creepy, the letters. He does get behind her
and like, yeah, that's the first thing you see him.
And where he's like he's behind her is his arms

(39:01):
are around her under the guys with like let me
teach you how to play cello, but it's really like,
let me put my crotch right up against your ass.
Ghost scene. Yeah, pottery getting made in this scene. No,
it's jest a guy hitting on a kid. But the
twist is the kids twenty seven. It's very confused. Anyone

(39:24):
could be any age in this movie. So I think
Zembe Blair gave birth to half the cast's it's hard
to know what's going on. And then we see that
same play out where like Mrs Caldwell is like Ronald,
how could you I got you off the streets and
he's like, I live at park what are you talking about?
And then he's saying like, I never touched your daughter,

(39:45):
and I thought someone of your stature would look beyond
racial lines. And she's like, oh, don't give me that
racist crap. I gave money to Colin Powell, which but there,
I mean, the bare minimum done here is that the
racist character is clearly wrong and silly, right, but the
subtext of everything is still extremely bad, right, because he's

(40:07):
still praying on the kid. And then again Catherine, who
is the villain of the movie, even though Sebastian is
actually the villain of the movie, but the movie wants
you to love him. But Catherine is like exploiting the
fact that two people love each other and because they
happen to be of a different race, She's like, oh,
I can like use this as fuel to get back

(40:30):
at Cecile, which, like Cecile literally did nothing to her, right, nothing, nothing, nothing.
She doesn't have enough brain power to do much. It's
like she you know, basically this is an ego thing.
Katherine dated a guy court and something happened. We don't
really know. There's a quick little scene of her like
going down on him while he's passed out, but it's

(40:50):
basically he started seeing Cecile and she her ego said,
you don't me for her? Oh buck her, which is
such an issue among women, like if listen, it's never
the other woman, it's the guy. It's never the other woman,
it's the guy. Do not hate on the other woman,
it's the guy. I'm telling you from experience. Yeah, And

(41:12):
we talked about this a lot on the podcast because
we come up upon many relationships between and it's often
teen girls, but in movies it shows two women just
like being in conflict with each other for reasons that
aren't fully explored, just because you know, the older white
men who are writing these movies are like, teen girls

(41:34):
can't get along, so let's just make sure that's in
the movie. So but that's why we all learn from it,
you know. I mean I've been in many, not many.
I've been in a few squabbles with girls that are
currently with my ex or there I'm with their ex,
and all of them. Eventually I go, yeah, that was dumb.

(41:54):
This is silly. But movies like this reinforced the idea that, yeah,
I'm saying, gotta women against each other, go against all
this upbringing. I'm a fucking miracle sitting in front of
you right now. Evolved is a fucking miracle. Personally, I
recommend forming a league of exes. I have. I'm a
part of several leagues of exes where Scott Pilgrim there

(42:16):
to know because that movie Problemax but there. But you know,
sometimes I've dated a lot of losers, and uh, sometimes
losers get to have sex with a bunch of cool
ladies and then the cool has become friends, and then
the loser has to stop performing stand up comedy. It's great.
It's it's great. Did we I'm literally on a text
change of my X. It's great. It's real trauma bonding.

(42:42):
Uh guess it's the guy. Everybody break, That's all I
gotta say. Let's take a quick break and we will
be back for more cruel intentions. And we're back not
to keep. I know. The adaptation head in the room

(43:04):
love talking about adapting source material, but in the original book,
the way it ends is Sarah Michelle Gellar's character has
to move to the countryside, and then she contracts smallpox
and lives, but has scars on her face forever, so
she looks like sh and her punishment, her beauty is

(43:24):
taken away from her. And then also Cecil is disgraced
and can never be married. So you know, Sebastian dies
and you know, goes down the hero and then all
the women he affected suffer and are disgraced for life.
Very cool. I love history, but that is like what

(43:45):
writers of then and now's idea would be. Oh, how
do we punish a woman take away her beauty? Because
women's beauty is all that matter? My guy, Pierre not
very well, guy, No, do better. Pierre Decay's very h
Let's talk about how queerness is represented in this film.
Shall we have to? We have to? So there's a

(44:09):
subplot where Blaine, which is Joshua Jackson's character. Oh yeah,
Joshua Jackson's in this movie. He's fully bleached, frosty, tippy.
He's wearing a sweater vest for a large portion of it. Um,
I mean he's rocking the look. If I'm being on
I did like the sweater vest he is hooking up

(44:31):
with this football player dude, Greg Greg. I did I
stand a Gregster? Okay? And Greg is who Sebastian thinks
is bad mouthing him to a net because there's someone
who's like, Sebastian is bad, don't date him in it,
and Sebastian thinks it's Greg. So Sebastian uses Greg's queerness

(44:53):
to blackmail him. He basically threatens to out Greg unless
he admits to bad mouthing him. And we understand at
this point in the story that Sebastian is still a
bad guy and we've seen him do a bunch of really,
you know, morally reprehensible things to people already. But what
is really troubling to me about this scene is that

(45:16):
all of this is happening right in front of Blaine,
who is the other identifiably queer character in the movie,
and he is completely complicit and everything that Sebastian is doing,
he was participating in it like he was like, that's
an awesome idea where it's just like in the same
way that like Rehese's character is presented to us as

(45:39):
a smart, capable woman who will go along with whatever
Joshua Jackson's character is like a smart, funny, cool queer
man who is down for whatever sinister gay bashing plot.
Ryan Philippe's noodle Head can come up with. It's horrible. Well,
I think, you know, I look back on my my

(45:59):
high school experience and my queer friends, and I think
they were just trying to get by. Yeah. I think
this was a defense mechanism. It's like, yeah, that's right. Yeah,
call me a homophobic splore. I'm fine with it. He's
just trying to get through his damn day. He's just
waiting to graduate, to get the funk out of there
so we can find his tribe. But that just doesn't
come off in the movie at all, Like it just

(46:21):
comes off as like, oh, yeah, this is fine. And
I feel for the Gregster. This is to this movie,
like many of its era, did not acknowledge any gray area.
It's like you're gay or you're straight, and like that's it. Poor.
I feel for the Gregster. I really hope the Gregster
comes into his own later and that his dad accepts

(46:44):
him and then he goes on behind a powerful queer
football career. But then, but then poor Greg has to
do Sebastian's creepy. Errand yeah. And I would say of
the hundred or more movies we've covered on the podcast
so far, only a small handful of them, probably like
five or less even have had an identifiably queer character. Um,

(47:08):
a lot more have been queer coded, but that is
not the same. So there's such a lack of queer
visibility in mainstream Hollywood cinema and it's a huge problem.
So for one of like the few examples of a
queer character that we have to choose from to be
able to see on screen, he's really evil and cruel

(47:30):
and like willing to sell out his own people for
reasons that are not really established in the movie. And
it's so it's like even characters who are not coded queer,
who are identifiably queer, they're still villainous. Not that this
movie is was ever going to do any better, but

(47:51):
that was just like a punch in the mouth as well.
Um yeah, I mean he was. He was like a
comic relief for you know, yeah, yeah. And another I mean,
I don't even know if this trope applies as much
in this movie, because literally everyone is a horrendous villain.
But adding another queer villain to the roster certainly is
not hell not helping, not helpful. Well, and then the

(48:12):
other queer moment in this movie is between Selma Blair
and Sarah Michelle Geller, which is I mean, you can
come with this in a lot of different ways. I'm
interested in, like what our listeners think of this moment
because it is so like I feel like this. This
is used in movies a lot just to like get
butts and seeds. It's like, these two actresses are having

(48:35):
a kiss, but it sells the idea that it's like
it's just an experiment. It's just for fun, it's not serious,
and that's part of what makes it appealing or what's
supposed to make it appealing. Um is it's I think
the most effective kiss of the movie. It was like coonic.
It was I hadn't seen this movie, but I knew

(48:57):
that right. It got parody in many of film I think,
like not another team movie franchise. It one best kiss
at the MTV Movie Awards that year, which at the
time was fucking iconic, big and um you know the
little spit trail that was famous. I did like this,

(49:17):
I don't know. To me, it was the whole scene
was you have to learn how to be sexy for men,
you have to learn how to please your man. And
it was a very like male gaze moment. And you know,
I don't know. I grew up in a completely different place.
I was in you know, suburbial Texas, not like you know,

(49:38):
upper New York echelon. But I never made out my
fucking friends. I don't know, neither did I not until
college when I was like, oh, let's see what this
is like. But not and I don't even mean that
in a way of like you shouldn't experiment sexually with
your friends. I'm just saying it was. It was such
a like, well don't you want to be better for

(49:59):
men to like you? And that made me sad. I
think it would be really beautiful if they kissed, because
very experimenting, you know, figuring things out. But it was
very much like if you want to be sexy to
other men, if you want to know how to please
a man, because fuck him pleasing you, you know what
I mean, He's not making out with his friends, so
he knows how to please you better. So it's our job.

(50:21):
I mean it with your friends. My neighbor and I
used to practice kissing in each other to Madonna's two
thousand album music. There were some good songs on that CD. Yeah,
we were practice frenching. I think this scene is largely
there to satisfy a male gaze. I think it could

(50:45):
you argue that it's positive that it exists in this
film for you know, young queer girls to be able
to see themselves and say, oh, this is like yes,
but I think the movie was thinking about this at all.
I think the movie was like, wouldn't it be hot
if we had two hot women kissing each other? And

(51:08):
it was a very sensual moment. It was, I mean,
it was like it was well done and it's Yeah.
The reason I didn't want to come down too harder
because it's like, because there are so few moments for
like young queer people to attach themselves too, and so
I'm sure for many people this is like a scene
that's like, oh, this is like that was like some
sort of awakening or something like that and good to see.

(51:30):
But there's no, there's only cruel intentions behind what cruel intentions?
Whatever do you mean? But yeah, and then this happens
in movies all the time. Two examples, right, off the
top of my head are Jennifer's body at the Apple
Cody Joint, And there's just very like this didn't need
to happen, but you added it in because you wanted to,

(51:52):
because you're a guy, right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Another moment
happens where this is when Sebastian and a net are
for meeting on screen and Sebastians all like, oh, I
didn't like your manifesto. It's gross that you want to
be a virgin, and she's like, she's saying, you know,
I think that sex should be for people who are
in love, and that you should the act of love

(52:13):
shouldn't be done unless you love the person, which is
feist Trevor, which was Trevor. We don't meet him, but
her boyfriend respects for damn wishes. They use a homopholbic
slur him. Yeah, and she's like, I'm actually he's a
he's a feminist dot com right and and the Greg

(52:35):
Stir queer icon. Yeah, so and that's all like we like,
people are age are mature enough to experience those emotions,
So that's why I'm not having sex yet. And the
Sebastian immediately asks, are you a lesbian. And this is
this I think third movie that we've covered recently where
a woman either doesn't want a boyfriend or doesn't want
to have sex with a man, or is simply identifies

(52:57):
as a feminist. And then other aaracters, usually men, assume
that she's a lesbian because this happens in five days
of summer. How dare she not be attracted to me
instantly and want to fuck me? And then and then
backpad a little bit back to the virginity article, is like,
this is something that happens in movies all the time too,
Like implying that someone is like just waiting for a

(53:20):
manipulative dick to come along to lose a virginity too,
as opposed to like it's clearly stated in the Weird
teen magazine she somehow wrote editorial for for no reason
that this is what this is what she wants and
this is like and and she explains it clearly, and
the movie is like, yeah, but she doesn't actually mean
that she's just into submission. So, and I want to

(53:48):
talk about that scene where Catherine gives us like sort
of monologue where she's calling out a double standard that
we see in so soety where heard of it. She says,
it's all right for guys like you and Court. She's
talking to Sebastian, for guys like you in court to
funk everyone. But when I do it, I get dumped

(54:09):
for innocent little twits like Cecil. God forbid. I exude
confidence and enjoy sex. Do you think that I relish
the fact that I have to act like Mary Sunshine
seven so I can be considered a lady. So she's
basically saying, like, it's not fair that men can have
sex with a bunch of people, you know, their reputation
remains untarnished. They're cool, they're you know, awesome dudes. And

(54:31):
then whenever women have sex with more than one person,
they are labeled a slut. So she's calling this out.
She makes a good point, but she's also insulting another
woman while doing it. She's mad at people judging her,
but she's judging some another woman's sexual choices. Right. This
rang completely empty to me? Yes, Like I just if

(54:53):
she would have cut the first sentence, you know, or
the part the innocent twit like ceceal part, it would
have been fine. But clear Really she's just dealing through
her own ship. Yeah, and it's like the the whole
like Gillian Flynn argument, they're Jillian Flynn, don't know, we
never know, don't caret tired. But but the whole argument
there is like that like women should be allowed to

(55:14):
be villains and isn't that parody? And like I agree
with that to an extent, but this is this just
like falls squarely into a thing I fucking hate, which
is like the adding a few like this is a
moment for feminists that is totally empty because the character
is complicit and all these horrible things and they're means
women themselves, and it's just like it's it's it's empty,

(55:36):
like girl power, especially because like I think this monologue
could be way more meaningful and progressive if it was
coming from a character who wasn't completely evil, like because
this movie does what a lot of movies do, which
is to take a woman who is interested in sex
and who is open with her sexuality, but who's also
like really mean or has just some other neg of

(56:00):
characteristic like ascribed to her character, so it's almost villainizing
her sexuality where it's like, oh, yeah, she wants to
be open, she wants to be free to have sex,
with a number of different people. But also she's cruel,
she has cruel intentions, especially because this isn't the direct
lead up to her being squarely made the sole villain

(56:21):
of the movie by the end. Yeah, I just want
to say also, like, I was prude shamed, and that's
just a word I made up. It might be a term,
but that's an I was prude shamed in high school.
I graduated High School of virgin and uh, and I
was extremely prude shamed by a guy I was dating,

(56:42):
by all his friends, by literally everyone, and it's a
whole other coin. Yeah, And I struggled with a lot
of that myself because I saw, you know, friends of
mine having sex and and then I almost shamed them
out of insecurity and like, you know what I mean.
So I hate it, but I think it's important to
call out again. This is the ship that we were shown,

(57:05):
and this movie affected me and my sexuality subconsciously, how
I saw other women. And that's all I gotta say
about that shot. It's all the pruds, you know. I
was trying to get through the damn day. I was
trying to graduate and go to school. Prudes are productive people,
I mean, that's the point it's like, you want and

(57:27):
how about no women comment on other women's sexual preferences.
There's say, you know what, if you want to sex,
that's awesome. If you don't, that's awesome. We can all
co exist without judging each other, your body, your children
exactly because and that's another thing that bothers me about
the Reese character is like at the beginning, it's like
if I saw this movie when I was teen, prude,

(57:50):
same same thing, I would have been like, oh, this
is the character I attached myself too. And then immediately
it's like no, but she just has to funk Bryan
Philippie and then her life will be great, and it's like,
well he manipulated her. I mean, I would like to
think when she's thirty three, you know, doing a podcast,
that she would be like, fuck, I should not, you know,

(58:11):
I don't know. Maybe I do that a little differently
if I thought about it and a little more, I
had intentions not so nice where they cruel? Would you say,
I don't want to like throw anyone under the bus here.
But also his handwriting is really bad, but I got
a Jaguar out of it. I don't wish to speak
ill of the dead, but like perhaps his intentions were cruel. Well,

(58:32):
let's talk about another scene or series of scenes that
probably also negatively influenced you as a teen watching this movie,
which is the rape scene and the after So, so,
what happens here is that Sebastian invites over Cecil under

(58:53):
the pretense that he's going to help her with Ronald
to write, which he has no intention of doing. Actually,
Then he feeds her an alcoholic drink that she does
not know contains alcohol. He takes pictures of her without
her knowledge or permission. Then he negs her and says,
too bad, you're not sexy. Then he unzips her sweatshirt
and exposes her bra without her permission. Then he threatens

(59:17):
to call her mom and blackmails when she wants to leave.
When she wants to leave, explicitly says I'm uncomfortable. I
want to leave, and to which he says, you can't leave.
I will rat you out and ruin your life, so
he traps her. Then he says, all I want to
do is give you a kiss, which she the consent.

(59:38):
Here in this in this isolated moment is still murky
because she's really only agreeing to it to sort of
placate him because he's been blackmailing I'll do anything, just
don't call my mom, right, which is so gross as
you know, she's a child. And then he's like, well,

(59:59):
I want to kiss you down there, and then she's like, no,
I don't want that. And then he's like, what promise
is a promise? I mean, I can't imagine, like I
put myself in that situation. And again, when I was
like a fifteen year old virgin, I mean, that would
have completely ruined my life. That would have completely changed
the course of my life, my sexuality, everything. Absolutely, It's

(01:00:22):
a very fucked up moment. Yeah. And the aftermath of this,
so then he takes advantage of her naivete pressures her
into oral sex, which she does not give consent to.
He rapes her. So the next day she is visibly traumatized.
And then I think maybe later that day or the
next day or something like that, Cecile and Catherine talk

(01:00:45):
about it. Cecile says, you know, something awful happened to
me last night and involves your brother. He took advantage
of me, and then straight up says, your brother fucking
rape me. Your brother fucking raped me. And what does
Catherine says? Well, first she says why didn't you do something, which,
again is victim horrible this. I literally felt throw up

(01:01:06):
rising my throat watching this. It made me so uncomfortable.
It's just like, gut, I loved it when I asking you, Yeah,
I thought this was funny. And we're so gas lady insane,
bad sending the message that like women cannot talk to
other women about this stuff, and it's just oh, it's
bad because it confiding in her. Yeah, she was terrified,

(01:01:27):
and she's like, oh, he forced in her course on
you know, oh he made you give him a blow up? No,
well then what and then she described what happens and
then she's like, oh, he went down on you, if
that's what you call it. And then she's asking did
you like it? No, and she's like no, and she's like, well,
I don't know. It was weird. And then Catherine's like, oh,
well you had an orgasm. You're becoming a lady. You

(01:01:47):
had your awakening right unless she's like, I'm so proud
of you. And then Cecile, who again is a victim
and is experiencing trauma, the movie has her say I am,
and then she's squealing with delight. She hugs Katherine and
then Katherine's like, it would be stupid of you to stop.

(01:02:07):
You should keep going, have Sebastian teach you all the
sex stuff, sleep with as many people as possible, and
she's like, well, wouldn't that make me a slut? And
Katherine's like, everybody does it, it's just that no one
talks about it. So, like, God, I hate this so much.
It's the worst possible way this could have unfolded. Where
she's a victim of rape, she is confiding in another woman.

(01:02:30):
That other woman gaslights her, victim blames her and then says, oh,
what happened to you wasn't bad. It was actually good
because you had an orgasm and you should keep doing it.
And then the scene after that is Cetile back at
Sebastian's place. She has now had sex with him, she
wants to keep having She's she's verywhere he throws her

(01:02:56):
off the bed because she's talking. I mean, he's really
setting her up for a healthy sexual identity, and you
know what I mean, Like, it's just my heart broke
in this scene, just imagining her again growing up in
her twenties. This is setting her up for just really
shitty emotions involving her sexuality. It bummed me out so hard.

(01:03:18):
I guess I'm like too old to enjoy movies anymore
because all I see are the sad things. I'm so
glad I didn't see this movie as a teenager, because
I really think I would have been so full of
this over all of this, and that says a lot
again about you know, my environment, the media I was consuming,
the lack of positive, helpful conversations. I was big given

(01:03:40):
So again, it's a miracle. And who I am today
and it's all I gotta say. Well, we've had to
reach we've all had to retrain our and it comes
with age. That's one, you know. I'll take that. Yeah,
And I'm happy with who I am today. And fortunately
this is not the sort of movie. It would be
very hard to make this movie in the same way
today because society, because we have a vault, we have

(01:04:06):
ad enough. Certainly not, that's why we do this. Every
movie from like, have you to talk about the wedding singer? No,
not yet, I'll leave it for that. It used to
be on favorite movie and I watched it and I
was just like, damn, there's so many things in this
movie that really are not okay anymore. I had to
give my favorite movie Back to the Future. On a
bonus episode. We did Zero Nipples because everything about it

(01:04:29):
is horribly problematic. There's some assault in that movie too
that everyone just hurt her. That was funny. Yeah, this
movie is horrible, but great soundtrack. Also, I love the
frost the tips. They're frosty and I'm here for him.
But like everything else is horrible. Ryan Phillippi says emails

(01:04:50):
for geeks and pedophiles, which is so great. I mean,
it's like, which you know, relatable. They didn't get everything wrong.
That's a l O L line. It is still email
is still chaotic, evil, and god. An email causes me
so much anxiety. It's not like a phone call where
you can talk to somebody and then it goes away

(01:05:12):
and you'll never really remember exactly what somebody says. It's
literally like, I remember, I broke up with this guy
and I sent him the worst, like embarrassing overshare email,
and I'm like, I'm married now he's married. Now that
email exists, It's like this, some day he could fucking
there's a paper trail, and I hate that makes me
so upset that that exists. Man, Sometimes when I'm feeling

(01:05:35):
like emotionally cutting, I'm like, let me just see see
an email. Is isn't at any point terrific psycho. Does
anyone have any other thoughts about cruel intentions? It's just
like if if you want, if you are an evolved
person who wants to get drunk with their friends and
really ugle a horrifying piece of media, this was a

(01:05:57):
fun party watch. Other than that, I mean, if you
haven't seen this movie and expect to get anything out
of it in terms of your life, you won't write
it's it's it's really a cursed piece of media. It's sure,
it's a little over an hour and a half long,
but it took me, I would say, four hours to
watch because I kept either having deposit to take a

(01:06:17):
string of notes, or I was just so emotionally exhausted
watching it that I just had to keep taking breaks.
I mean, one point we didn't even touch upon is
Catherine's wardrobe, which is literally like Grandmama. It was like,
so as they say on Project going Away, matronly, she
dressed like a you know, sixty seven year old like

(01:06:38):
rich lady in the clothing is crazy. And then a
Nette is dressed in like white, sells the whole movie
because she's like the virginal, she's paste. And then she
dres just pretty like that's what a mid two thousands
or late nineties, you know teen girl would wear. Sure,
but I think the color palette was very intention it was.
And then the and then Cecile is dressing in like cartoonish.

(01:07:02):
She's wearing a bit. Why didn't see the diaper the
fucking eyes saw dress. It's cost dot diaper with her
fucking barette. You know. She look Well, that's why I
carry backpack. I always say we're a backpack. It takes
ten years off of you instantly. Oh I'm late for

(01:07:23):
sucking stunny hallo. Tip for all the people out there,
that's actually a great tip. Thank you adition. They're gonna go, wow,
look at that ten best boss. Oh well, shall we
determine whether or not the movie passes the back to tests?
Somehow it does. There are quite a few scenes where

(01:07:45):
women interact in the movie. This passes it. Yeah, yeah,
a bunch of times. Unfortunately, like oh my god, by
our standard it only has to be a two line
exchange that passes. So there are quite a few conversations
that women will be talking. They will start off the
conversation about not men, and then they will start to
talk about men, but the first few lines of those

(01:08:06):
conversations will pass. For example, like even in the very
beginning with the therapist whose name we learn based on
the book Covers, Dr Regina Greenbaum, she's on the phone
with terror read. She's like, hi, honey, and then Marcy's like,
you kept me on hold, and the doctor is like,
I'm sorry, it's something wrong, and then they start talking
about that. But that count, I mean to us, which

(01:08:29):
the bar is so low. We talked about that all
the time. We talk about the fact that this test
is flawed. That is what we named the show, so
we have to I mean, I only found one conversation
where they didn't talk about men, and that was when
Aunt Helen and net are discussing her house while they're
riding the horses. It's like, oh, what a beautiful home.
Oh it's been my family for generations. Oh thank you

(01:08:50):
for letting me stay here. The only conversation between not
pass the back to time. But then Annette says, oh,
my grandpa used to read horses, so then she mentions
a man. There's a scene towards the beginning where Katherine,
Cecile and Bunny called well Christine brains scar. They're talking

(01:09:13):
about how Cecile is going to start school, and there's
there's quite a few lines that do pass. But then
but then Cecile says, what are the boys like? So
then that stopped. Soasian sexually harasses her and that looks
up her skirt, yeah, and nobody says anything, and then
mother shames her. Yeah, She's like, together, close your legs.

(01:09:37):
This isn't Jamaica. What the does that mean? First of all,
I don't know, but I don't like it. Whatever that
implication is. I hate it sound they're not saying, how
fucking dare you my fifteen year old daughter? You're disgusting.
I'm telling you. It's so much victim blaming and victim shaming.
So enraged. How dare they do this to Christine? Honestly,

(01:10:01):
Christine didn't God? Okay. So there's a few other scenes that,
like towards the end, whenever Katherine and a Nette are
in the bathroom, as Katherine snorting cocaine out of her
uh necklace and that comes out of the stall. Katherine's like,
I didn't know anyone else is in here. And then
it's like, I'm sorry, I'm Anette heargrove, and she's like,

(01:10:21):
I'm Katherine. Have we met? I don't think so. And
then they talk about they both act like they don't
know who each other is. Right, We're right they talk
about Sebastian. But yeah, those few first lines passed the test.
So this movie unfortunately does pass, even though most conversations
between women end up being about men. So yes, so
good job movie. Shall we rate the film on our

(01:10:45):
nipple scale? Can can do it? All? Right? Zero to
five nipples? Based on its portrayal and representation of women,
It's zero. I'm getting this is getting zero nipples. Every
Thing between the victim blaming, the assault that is not

(01:11:06):
considered assault by most of the characters in the movie
and the movie itself, the homophobia, the slurs that get
thrown around very freely, the fact that women hate each other.
There there isn't a woman that gets along with another
woman in the whole movie. Yeah, the fact that Catherine

(01:11:27):
is villainized at the very end, and she's the one
who gets her come up, and even though Sebastian is
the way more active villain and does way more horrible
things throughout the film, including assault, It's just I feel
really sorry for anyone who watched this as a young

(01:11:48):
and impressional person, because this movie almost certainly screwed you
up to some degree, and it's horrible that this movie
exists in the world. Soundtrack though there so yeah, zero nipples,

(01:12:10):
so I have no nipples to give to anybody. I'm
also going to give it zero nipples. I want to
give it negative nipples because this is a successful movie
to add a net negative impact on the culture. It
did harm to people. I'm giving it negative one nipples.
I'm giving in an inverted, cursed nipple because it did.
I mean, movies like this are so frustrating because there

(01:12:32):
I mean, this is a special case, because there's truly
nothing good to be taken away from it. Yeah, you're
totally right. There's not one positive not loaded with like malice.
Female interaction where at least there are male male relationships
in this movie that are friendships, but of course it's
because they do evil shipped together. They rape in packs.

(01:12:55):
But like no woman talking to another woman in this
movie is done without them lie to each other, manipulating.
It's just women and women when you say their intentions
are perhaps okay as they mean yeah, as they mean intentions, okay, okay,
I'm it gets an inverted nipple for violence against Christine Baranski.

(01:13:16):
It it just I don't like when my galasm is
saying things about Jamaica that make no sense. This movie
is like, sucks so hard that it is watching a
slow taxi crash that makes no sense. Yeah, it's bad,
it's bad. I don't I can't think of something I
could have done to make it worse. Right, they made

(01:13:36):
every bad choice, and that is an accomplishment in itself.
They made every single bad choice. They didn't let Sebashian
have one. I mean he even verbally assaults the old
woman in the retirement home. Yeah, he fucking verbally assaulted
the old lady in the retirement home. Character gets past him,

(01:13:56):
he gaslights hers like yeah we played backgammon, don fuck
your daughter? Like, who the fuck? But sick fuck I
also the fun runner of every time Sebastian walks into
a building, he abuses the working class doorman, class shaming people.

(01:14:17):
Oh he's just a night but he's the guy that
we're supposed to root for at the end because he
gets because not even any less evil because of this.
He does nothing because he had a sinister scrap book
that was published. Yeah, he went into a lot like
he like cut things out, amazing deca, getting crafty. Yeah,

(01:14:39):
I mean, you know whatever, fuck it negative one nipple, Yeah,
well what would you give it? I would give the
soundtrack five nipples with the movie zero. Yes, fuck this movie. Honestly,
shame on all these actors too, But again at the time,
we didn't know any it was. That's really depressing. But
that's true. And I to pull the ignorance card, but honestly,

(01:15:02):
but it's true. It is. It just makes me. I
wonder what they think now, you know, like Molly Ringwalld
talked about The Breakfast Club and like, looking back on it,
I would love to hear what SAA Michelle Gellar thinks
of this movie now. And Ryan Philippi. This movie almost
became a TV show two years ago and then it
was mindfully canceled. Um, I don't know, has like done

(01:15:24):
a lot of good things, it seems since she you know,
she has a production company where she's championing female led projects,
championing women of color, its rules, no doubt about it.
So at least she was funked up with that cop
at one time. But we all pretended, oh wait, what happened?
What she was driving drunk, got pulled over? It was like,
don't you know who I am? I mean the the

(01:15:48):
PR team skirted pass out. Everybody gets one shitty pass
you learn from it, you know, Okay, Hollywood forgives. I
think we all know that by now. Okay, unless you're
a woman older than four. But racist America's sweetheart. When
she won her oscar, I sobbed, I wept with joy. Yeah,
so call me Reest, love you and and l Woods.

(01:16:11):
I will defend her till my night. Yeah, like Reese
Weatherspoon is like white feminism, the person the better for works. Sure. Yeah, well, Jackie,
thank you so much for coming on the podcast and
discussing this life with us. Where can people find you online?
Do you have anything you'd like to plug? Well? I
host a show called Natch Beaute. It's a beauty show.

(01:16:31):
But what does beauty mean to you? You know, that's
really what we talk about. We we really love cruelty
free products, so we get into the kind of the
stuff nobody tells you about the beauty industry, makeup and skincare,
and we have fun on there. So maybe you two
can come on and we can talk about stuff like that.
It would be fun. I like cruelty free intentions wait

(01:16:53):
and direct DVD sequel, So yeah, check out natural You
and you can follow me on Instagram at an attribute
and then my I always plug my dog's account hello,
because my dog is the biggest star in my house.
So you like dog accounts? Follow Chucci love it Yeah awesome.

(01:17:15):
You can find us in all the usual places. We
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(01:17:36):
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