Elf with Mara Wilson

Jamie and Caitlin travel from the North Pole to the real world to discuss Elf with special guest Mara Wilson, and they discover that the patriarchy is still alive and well.

(This episode contains spoilers)

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women and um are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands?
Do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef invest start changing
it with the Bedel Cast. Hey, it's Caitlin and Jamie
and you're about to hear our episode on ELF. But

(00:23):
first we just had a few quick plugs that we
wanted to do at the top of the show. Starting
with our next live show in Los Angeles is January twelve.
I'm so excited guest Danielle Perez. Ever heard of her?
Friend of the cast might remember her from our hocus
Pocus episode. Let's go back to your research. So she's

(00:43):
coming back and we're talking about Romeo and Michelle's high
school reunion movie and I haven't seen yet. Oh my goodness,
I'm so excited for you to see it. So that's
on January twelve at nine pm at The Ruby, and
tickets are on sale for that at bectelcast dot com
and click on live appearances. And just a reminder that
we have a live show in l A every second
Saturday of the month at the Ruby at the Ruby

(01:06):
at nine pm, So mark your calendars and don't do
anything else except for that, and I think all of
our regulars can attest because we do have rags, join
the fam. It's a small, intimate, fun show. We always
hang after. We bring scloocy merch. What more could you want?
Nothing more? Nothing? Um speaking of other live shows, there

(01:30):
are still tickets left to some of our West Coast
tour shows in January. So at the time of this recording,
we've got tickets left to our San Francisco show on January.
That's a part of SF sketch Fest. We're talking about
the Breakfast Club, and there are tickets left to our
show in Portland on January. We're talking about Fight Club

(01:52):
as well as the two of us are doing a
stand up show in Seattle. Yes, just the two of us,
Just the two of us doing our stand up coming day.
I ever heard of it. If you haven't, you're going
to have to fly yourself out to Seattle. Sorry. Yeah,
So that's on January, and tickets for all of those
shows are same place backdelcast dot com and click on

(02:14):
live appearances And then, um, I would just like to
plug a couple of things that just I'm doing. Sorry Jamie,
but like okay, I know. I'm so sorry, but you
know I'm running some screenwriting workshops. You can come. Yes,
I would love to learn on um. Yeah, if you

(02:35):
want to learn from someone who has a master's degree
in screen right now bought. Yes, I don't know what
I'm doing, but I would love to. Oh my god,
I'd love to teach you. So um if you want
to come with Jamie to either. The one I'm doing
in um Portland is January at seven pm, and I'm

(02:59):
doing on in Seattle on January. I think that one's
in the afternoon. It's a Saturday. Yeah, come and learn
from a master. And it's just like a crash course
in all things writing for the screen. So I love it.
Thank you great um. And more info and the registration
links are on my website Caitlin Dronte dot com and

(03:21):
then click on the show's tab. You can go to
my website, but it's mostly dead links and a lot
of videos of hot dogs. I I recently hyper linked there.
My website is eighty present the episode of How It's
Made of Various Meats. Oh that sounds disgusting, no offense,

(03:41):
but Jamie Loft is his innocent. Dot com is the
hyperlink for all the meat videos. Yes, please just go
there for fun anyway. So those are the quick plugs
we wanted to do at the top of the show.
So you log hou it's made uppisode for hot dogs anyways.
Enjoyed that? Yeah, enjoy the episode. It's a great one.

(04:04):
And uh, well we'll see you soon. I'm going to
tweet that. Ok. Bye cast. Hi, Hi everyone, thanks for
coming to the Becdel Cast. Hi everyone. My name is
Jamie Loftus, my name is Caitlin Darante, and this is
our show that you're at. And maybe was anyone here

(04:28):
dragged by a loved one? Raise your hands? It always
takes a second. They're like, well, thank you for coming.
By round of applause, who has seen the movie? Else? Great?
Everyone but me? Cool? Is there anyone by round of

(04:52):
applause who has not seen el Yes, allies, there's always
a couple, there's always of you. So we are the
Bechtel Cast. We talk about the portrayal and representation of women,
among other things in film, using the Bechdel test as
like a jumping off point to initiate a larger conversation.

(05:13):
And if you don't know what the Bechtel test is UH.
First of all, a shame on you. Second of all,
I take it back, You're fine, But it is is.
It's a media test invented by Alison Bechdel that requires
that there be two female identifying characters in a narrative that,
for us, have names, and they have to talk to

(05:35):
each other about something other than a man for a
total of two lines of dialogue. So if you've seen Elf,
just think about that for a second. A lot of
movies don't do this. They're not able to do what
is truly the bare minimum. My favorite bad pass because

(05:55):
I most like most media tests, it is a flawed metric.
UH is the She's All that where one of the
named female characters tells the other named female character to
kill herself and the first one's like, hey, you're like
technically it passes. Yeah, a really good one. Um. So,
do we have any other orders of business that we

(06:16):
need to attend to before we introduce our guests? I
don't think so. I skipped the middleman tonight. You iced yourself.
I iced myself quietly backstage like a lady, and I
just said you've been nice, and then I twisted the
cap myself and got down to business. So I'm ready
to go beautiful. Yeah. Well, without much further ado, let's

(06:39):
introduce our guest. She is a recovering child actor. She's
a writer. She wrote the book Where Am I Now?
And she has a newsletter called shan't we tell the Vicar?
Please give it up? Fromara Wilson. Hey, hello, Oh my goodness.

(07:01):
The audience is so close, and that is something that
is completely wasted on the podcast audience because they can't
say it. I hate when people do that when they
record podcasts and they'll be like and then I went
like this, and then they'll do something with their hand
that we can't see and I'm just like, explain what
you just did? So so yeah, so so for those
listening at home, the audience is close. But they're all
beautiful people, so it's nice to look at you all.

(07:24):
I do like the jarring nature of a room where
you can make eye contact with everyone. Well, I get
a good feeling from this audience, so yeah, I got
a good feeling. They're they're receptive audience so far, and
they're very smiley, so yeah, this is good. Yes, some
good eyeballs. Yes, because we can see you too. So

(07:48):
Mara tell us about your relationship, your your history with
the movie Elf. Okay, well, uh so, I remember when
I was sixteen, I thought that I was like highbrow
by reading like Entertainment Weekly, and you know, I was
reading The Advocate a lot too. I was reading like
a lot of you know, which is like a game magazine.
I was really in the closet guys, um, and I was,

(08:11):
but I was really like, I was reading a lot
about entertainment, and uh, I heard that Elf was a
good movie. And I knew that my family we were
going to go see movies over over winter break, and
my stepmother would usually choose a romantic comedy that I
didn't like because I was a very cynical teenager. Um.
And somehow, being a cynical teenager, I still chose to

(08:31):
see ELF. I was like, let's go see Elf. I've
heard that it's good and for like a holiday movie,
you know, maybe, but like I feel like nobody and
my family enjoyed it. And then like we were really
quiet in the way home, and I feel like everybody.
I feel like my parents didn't like get my sister,
my little sister says she liked it, but she didn't
seem to at the time, and I feel like everybody

(08:52):
blamed me, like they didn't like the movie and they
blamed me. And I remember being like being sixteen and
being like, this is so stupid. So I didn't really
think anything of it until a couple of years later. Um.
It's also probably worth mentioning that I grew up Jewish,
um so a lot of holiday movies, although I was
actually in a Christmas movie and at one point in

(09:12):
my life, and uh, one thing I've got to say
is if you ever have the chance to be in
a Christmas movie or sing a Christmas song or something
like that, go for it. Because even if it's bad,
they need stuff to like fill the air on TV
and radio. So even if it's terrible, do it and
you will still make money. Like it is a very

(09:32):
practical thing. Working in a Christmas working in the Christmas industry,
you can say, is a very very that is a
very pragmatic move. So, um, I didn't think much of it,
although I did see the Broadway musical a couple of
years ago because I was babysitting in New York and
the kids I babysat their parents worked for for theaters
and so we got front row tickets to elf um

(09:56):
the Music Hall, and like, you know, you can think
that like Will fair Old does a lot in this movie,
but imagine the actor who had to play Buddy for
two hours straight like there was an intermission and singing
dance the whole freaking time. Like that guy, that guy
is amazing. I wish I could remember his name. I
am like still in awe of that guy. And not

(10:17):
only that, but the kids I was babysitting with. They
were like all dressed up to go to the theater
and they were sitting in the front row with me.
And at the end, he bowed and he bowed and
he waved right at the kid that was one of
the kids who was like front row center. So like
that guy has my heart forever, like like Will Ferrell
your grape, but like this is the true Buddy in

(10:37):
my head. But I watched it again the other day,
and um, it's not my favorite movie and it's not
my favorite Christmas movie. But I was like, Okay, I
get what they were going for now I'm not like
I'm not a cynical teenager anymore. And there's also a
lot of actors in it that I like and you know,
so I was just kind of like, Okay, this is
this is kind of cute. There's also things that really

(10:58):
really have not aged well or even and we're kind
of weird at the time, but but I imagine that
we are going to get into this. So that is
my long protracted relationship to ELF, which I thought I
didn't have much of a relationship with it, but I
just talked for five minutes straight, so I guess I do.
I just want to give a shout out to the
guy who played SpongeBob on Broadway now god right, because

(11:20):
he had what Ethan Slater, Yes, shout out, you know,
I get you. Shout out to Ethan Slater. He first
of all, is hot, which is SpongeBob shouldn't be hot.
But yeah, yeah, wow, it's crazy. Not as hot as
squid word, but that I have a I have a

(11:43):
power ranking that you can approach me afterwards if you dare. Wow.
But SpongeBob, I mean he like climbed up like two
stories set and like the third song and then he
has to still be SpongeBob, but he has muscles. It's great.
I know somebody who was in SpongeBob the musical and
she also has limitless energy, So I feel like that

(12:04):
that kind of makes sense. That's kind of what they
go for. I love it. Yeah, it's it's pretty amazing.
I feel really bad because I'm just like lauding this guy,
but I can't remember what his name was. So just kids,
everybody go home and google Buddy the elf In musical
in Uh yeah, everybody do that and then like find

(12:27):
him on Twitter and be like Marl Wilson says, you're awesome.
Don't do that? Uh do you do that? If you?
If you are Jamie, what's your history and relationship with
the movie. I feel like this has happened to me
with a lot of recent movies where I thought I
had seen the movie but I actually hadn't, and I
had just seen a lot of T shirts and had

(12:48):
heard a lot of people say you've seen that. I
think I just like, through years of lying, convinced myself
and had seen it. I had. I had the same
issue with Nightmare before Christmas, was like, nope, just been
to a hot topic. I don't know what store this
movie is associated with, so I don't have quite the

(13:09):
same names, but the same problem. Yeah, sure, I don't
know it's weird because I was like the perfect age
to see this movie when it came out. And I
don't know what my mom's problem with Will Ferrell was exactly,
but what she told me because I remember asking to
see this movie because we you know, we were festive.

(13:30):
You know, we're like we would see stuff one of
those fun festive families. I was like, Mom, can we
go see Elf? And she was like, you know how
I feel about that man? But her thing was too tall.
I was like what she just was like, but there
must have been a real reason, but she would just

(13:50):
be like, too tall, We're not going my mom. My
mom really didn't like an American Tale for some reason.
I don't know why, and maybe maybe she felt that
they were like clearly Jewish characters, but they were like
Christian washed into it because there was like a five
of the Christmas Mouth story or something. I kind of
got that feeling. But she told me she I was like,

(14:11):
I want to see five Will goes West, but she
really didn't like an American tale and she said, no,
we can't see that. It's it's going to be too
gory and violent. I love a good mom. Yeah, right,
when you're later you're just like, oh, you just didn't
want to go exactly exactly. So I just saw it today. Great, Yeah,

(14:33):
I saw it when it came out in the theater
possibly I can't remember, but within at least a year,
but coming out I didn't exactly remember how I felt
about it, except that the other day. You know, when
like Netflix DVDs were popular and you would like rate
what you thought of the DVD that you got. I
just saw the other day that I had rated Elf

(14:54):
one star out of five. So apparently I absolutely hated it,
I first thought, because I didn't rewatch it at any
point until just a couple of days ago. And um,
I don't like it, But I have really good reasons
and I can't wait to tell you them. So shall
I do the recap? Yeah? Alrighty? So okay, Well, first

(15:19):
of all, okay, a story about a naive guy who
comes from a different part of the world and who
longs to be accepted by a new family. What is
this Paddington from a mile away that time? Okay? So um,
we learned about elves in the North Pole who build
toys for Santa. They work in Santa's workshop and one Christmas,

(15:42):
while Santa is delivering presents at an orphanage. A baby
crawls into a stack of toys, and he accidentally takes
the baby with him to the North Pole. The baby
remained silent for the entirety of the rest of the trip.
That bothered me. One of the elves adopts the baby.

(16:02):
His name is Papa Elf Hot Hot. What if you're
just like my My name's Daddy. No, I'm single, I
have no children. I liked that. And the baby gets
named Buddy, and he grows up to be Will Ferrell,

(16:23):
and um, he's he's not like the other elves. Um,
he's tall, and he's not as good at making toys.
And he eventually learned the truth that he is a
human whose mother died and whose father is this like
big shop publishing guy in New York City. So right

(16:45):
at the bat, we have a weird Disney princess vibe
about Buddy where they're just like mother character. We're not
gonna want to bother with that. Let's get to two
men in conflict as soon as possible. So his dad
didn't even know that Buddy existed. So Buddy sets off
to New York City to understand by the way they

(17:06):
like they like, don't I feel like it's still really
taboo to have to have somebody like have a child
when they aren't married in movies. Have you noticed that,
like they're still still this thing or they don't. They'll
they'll have like a single parent in it, but they
won't ever And they really like didn't touch on the fact.
You know it's a family movie, but you know, you
never knew that she existed. They never The way that

(17:28):
they touch on that I think is really interesting. It's
like very specifically avoidant of like these people had sex
and they were really young, and she decided to keep
the baby, but didn't community like that's that's like a
complicated thing to to, you know, but they're trying to
keep it like that's still such like a for some reason,
it's still like a taboo subject, I think, And it
totally ignores like the concept of like, well, she probably

(17:51):
didn't tell him for a reason. What if he's a
bad guy, Like there's I don't know that, And then
you keep seeing the same picture of her, but he's
always longingly like I wish my toxic father would you know,
like spoon me. But you're like a woman has died,
Will Ferrell, What are you doing? Buddy sets off to

(18:12):
New York City to find his dad and to find
himself and cool. Sorry okay, but the only world that
he knows is the elf world. So he shows up,
he walks, hear, he works, Does he walk through Canada?

(18:33):
How is he not cold and dead? He also gets
attacked by a raccoon. Do you do to elves? Get
like inoculations against rabies like the ones that you give
to your cats and dogs. He also survives entirely on sugar, Like,
how is he not dead? What do the elves know
that we don't about help and longitivity? Maybe that's why

(18:55):
they keep the whole thing a secret, because they're afraid
that they're going to like get you know, taken over
for their secret. Right. Well, at one point, he says
that his daddy Elf is like four hundred He's like,
it took him four hundred nine years to figure out
how to make blah blah blah. Like, so yeah, they've
got like the elixir of life up there. Think, Yeah,
it's kind of frightening and amazing. Yeah it's Christmas magic. Okay,

(19:17):
So that's that's our untapped resource, you know, or that
they're they're renewable resources. Christmas. So he shows up and
he's naive. He you know, he's still dressed as an elf,
and he like thinks life is all about like hugs
and candy canes and rainbows and the lack of knowledge
of boundaries. Yes, So he shows up at his father's office,

(19:42):
but his father, Walter Hobbs played by James con He's like,
get out of here. I don't have no son. He's
mean and he's on Santa's Naughty List, so that's why
he's like, screw you, buddy. And then Buddy goes to
a department store and he's are like, oh, I'll fit
in here in Santa's like whatever, like North Pole Station.

(20:05):
They yeah, he's basically at like Macy's, and they mistake
him for being an employee there. So he just seamlessly
integrates into that community. And that's where he meets Jovi,
which is Zoe Deschanel's character Deschanel without bangs. It's confusing,

(20:25):
I know. And she works there as an elf, and Buddy,
here's Jovie singing a song. Baby it's cold outside, not
just anywhere it's in the show. She's in the shower.
We will, we'll talk about it. There's not time to
get into it here. My blood went cult. So Santa

(20:45):
comes into the store, but he's like, you're not the
real Santa. They get into a fistfight. Buddy gets a
restraining order filed against him, and then we meet Um
Walter's wife and son, and we learned that maybe Walter
isn't the most like attend to family man. But he
does bail Buddy out of jail, and he's like, let's
get this paternity test. Let's get this figured out. It

(21:07):
turns out Buddy is his biological son, so he brings
him home. That paternity test takes like two seconds. I
think there's a missed opportunity for a really good Maury scene.
There was, there really was. I think he would have
done the cameo no problem. Oh yeah, yeah, it's a
shame the doctor played the doctor though. So so Walter

(21:31):
is not happy about like Buddy being in his life. Also,
his brother Michael, who's like, I don't know, twelve or
something like that, is also not pleased. But then there's
a snowball fight and then Michael's like, oh wait, Buddy's cool. Um,
and then he encouraged his buddy to ask out Jovi. Yeah,
very like the like suddenly a twelve year old knows

(21:54):
how adults were. He's like, oh, are you trying to
get it in with so you're just like you you're twelve.
Please stop. Later on, Walter takes Buddy to work with him,
sends Buddy to like the mail room because Walter is
like trying to fix this problem with the children's book
at this publishing company, and he brings in Miles Finch,

(22:16):
and Miles Finch is a little person who Buddy mistakes
for an elf, and Miles understandably gets upset and storms
out first that Peter Dinkledge. Yeah, Peter Dinklage kicking his
ass A very satisfying scene to watch. He extremely wins

(22:39):
that fight. Yes, So then Walter is furious and he's like, Buddy,
get out of here. I don't care where you go,
just leave my life. And then Buddy runs away, and
then Michael comes in. He's like, I'm scared our son.
Buddy ran away, And this is all happening in the
middle of this big pitch meeting, and then Walter has

(22:59):
to decide to like, is he going to choose his
career or his family. Guess what I choose the family.
This is all happening on Christmas Eve, by the way,
Santa is out delivering presents, but there's no Christmas spirit

(23:21):
because Buddy has no sense of belonging anymore, I guess.
But there's a lot of third act like sure that
something about the sleigh isn't happening. It's powered by Christmas spirit,
but nobody in New York believes in Christmas anymore or
something right, and everyone watches the local news at the
same time. You're just like, yeah, sure, whatever, we just

(23:45):
got to get this lane. And everybody gets to the
same spot in Manhattan within five minutes. My friend pointed
that out when we were watching, and he was like, everybody,
everybody is just they're like, you know, okay, as soon
as I heard, and very very much like an improv scene,
just leaping in, like you know. And then the second
the dad sings, the plots resolved singing singing the power

(24:08):
of music or something, but something Christmas cheers. That's way
to spread Christmas cheer is singing loud hard disagree. So
Buddy's all like I gotta save Christmas. And Michael and
Walter show up to help. There's a guy who was

(24:30):
actively harassing a reporter and he's like, you have a
really nice mouth. Also, the other newscaster is harassing that reporter.
He's like, sorry to interrupt your first big story, you dumbass,
but I'm going to talk now, and then it cuts
back to her and someone is harassing her. But then
it's so weird the trajectory of that female newscaster. For

(24:54):
the few times we see her, we're just like, who
are you? Because it's like she's reporting the story, cut
away it to her boss, who was like, don't listen
to her. Then we see her with Michael Buddy's little
brother and then he's like, all you wanted for Christmas
was for your boyfriend to propose. And then she's like
stop the cameras and she screams at a child, and

(25:16):
it just like I don't know where I land on
this lady. So basically after that, jovis like, oh, we
gotta get Christmas cheer up and running again. So she
starts to sing, even though she doesn't like to sing
in public, but then everyone joins in and then the
sleigh starts to work, and then Christmas is saved and

(25:36):
then like the due mall of the story. Don't worry,
I have a master's scream screen. Oh my god, because
I feel ill. The family accepts him now, and he
wrote a children Buddy wrote a children's book about himself
self indulgent. Hello, Uh, way to blow your load on,

(25:56):
like you know, on one thing, Like, how the hell
are you gonna follow that up? Yeah? He should have
made it a series, Yeah, idiot. Uh. And then he
and Jovie get married, I guess, and have a baby,
and then they go to visit Elf Daddy and that's
the end of the movie. This is a fun movie

(26:23):
where you're just like, you're like, is a woman going
to appear in this movie at all? Is this a
show shank situation? Like it takes a very long time
for women to affect the plot at all. And I
would argue that that even hardly happens. Yes, you're right, Well,

(26:43):
let's go home. There's a lot of like implied women,
or there's a lot of women who are like a
woman gave birth to Buddy, we don't see her alive
a photo of her. Well, even from the very beginning,
like in the in Santa's Workshop, there are way more
male elves than lady elves, and I think there's only

(27:07):
one ELF woman who gets aligned. She yeah, and then
she's like, buddy, you're awesome, and then she just disappeared.
They're also they're also all white, I noticed, which is like, yeah,
I've seen I feel like other depictions of elves I've
seen have been like, like, no, there are multicultural elves,
elves from different Yeah, it's supposed to be like a

(27:29):
worldwide everyone, but this is like fashi elves just like yikes,
And it makes me wonders since there are so few
elf women. Earlier, like when the narrator is setting everything up,
he's like, oh, there's only three jobs that are available
to elves. It's either making shoes, baking cookies, or Santa's workshop.
And it's like, okay, so does that mean all the

(27:51):
elf women are baking cookies, like doing the domestic thing.
I'm speculating here, but who's the elf Betty freedom, you know,
stepping in? You know? Also its fucking unionized man, right,
I mean there's only three jobs available for you? Yeah? Yeah,
there just aren't enough elf woman in the workforce, right, Um,

(28:12):
I don't know they were so quick to adopt Buddy.
I mean they needed more people in there, and they
needed they needed Yeah, they needed hands. I don't know.
Maybe it's a Smurfette principal thing where there's only and
they all. I mean, you would think population would be
an issue if everyone's living five hundred years, But I
don't know. Maybe some elves die very young. I don't
know what age does elf menopause hit and then six

(28:37):
h Yeah, like you start craving things that aren't sugar
when you get et goo through elf menopause or something.
It's it's yeah, it's very different. I'd like a detailed
study of that. I do. I do enjoy that it
was the elf daddy who like took the responsibility to
adopt Buddy, because I feel like it could have easily
been like the one elf woman you see takes on

(28:59):
like the matron mother role. Sure, but that doesn't happen,
and so we get a single dad. So yes, he's
also funny, is very He has that kind of like
we were just talking about SpongeBob, that kind of SpongeBob
quality of like of not being overly masculine or just
not being being kind of you know, well until he
gets until he likes meets Jovi and and like disrespects

(29:22):
people's boundaries in New York and stuff like. But at first,
it's like, oh, it's sweet. He's not doing things that
are like traditionally gendered and it's it's kind of cute.
It's like, oh, he's he's really into giving people hugs
and being sweet and giving compliments and things. You know, Okay,
he should ask before he does. Yeah. Yeah, As it
goes on and the same way, yeah, I mean, it's
like you definitely have like a cool version of masculinity

(29:45):
presented here where he is never trying to wrong anyone ever,
and like you know, comes from a place of love.
And then it's like, oh, we have a consent issue here.
I don't know. I mean it's because he's he is
such a lovable character and like he I don't know,
I don't think he's too tall personally. I think he's

(30:09):
just tall enough. Uh see. I had a different read
on that, where he is like a very loving, accepting person,
but once he gets into the real world, he is
acting like a man baby. It's almost like the born
Sexy Yesterday trope thing happening, but like born sexy yeah,

(30:29):
non sexy yesterday. I'm sorry, but I mean he's not like,
you know, a traditional like hot lady bombshell. Like he's
not loud at any point, although he does expose himself
to but he has like this childlike mind that I

(30:50):
only have the patients for for about eleven seconds one star,
which gets weird when you consider the romantic subplot of
the movie where he has like a childlike understanding of
the world and of everyone around him. But then he
does like start to feel sexual feelings for a woman

(31:12):
who reciprocates, but he has given her no reason other
than the fact that he's like a nice guy, which
is a good reason. But he's a baby. He has
the mind of a baby, and she's like, oh, well
he's hot, and so they're really is odd. Well, that's

(31:34):
what That was one of my main issues with the
movie in general, as you can remove the romantic subplot
and nothing about the movie would change, Like if Zoe
Deschanelle didn't sing acapella at the end of this movie,
nothing would change. Uh. And that's I mean, I feel
like that is such a I'm sure it was like
you know, studio and of shoehorn In and he's got

(31:56):
to fall in love, but they don't really give her
anything of narrative impact to do other than be his
wife eventually, which is too bad because there I think
that there are so many interesting, good characters in this movie.
But I agree with you that, like, like going straight

(32:16):
to an adult relationship that leads to marriage what it
appears to be very quickly, doesn't make a lot of
sense for this character who has just entered the adult
world for the first time, And it doesn't make a
lot of sense for Jovi, who it's like, yeah, he's
a nice guy, but he like came into a room

(32:36):
while she was showering and began to sing the most
problematic Christmas song available that for me is like enough
reason to be like, yeah, I'm not going to date
this person. So he comes into the locker room while
she's showering and sings baby it's cold outside and growing
up Jewish. This was I think the first time that
I had heard that song, Like I was a teenager

(32:58):
and it was the first time, like I probab they
like harded in the background, but I I didn't know
what it was. I didn't know the name of the song.
I didn't know that I really did not know the lyrics,
so this was like kind of a route awakening for
me at sixteen and being like what the funk is
this song? And like I'm sorry, like like like Christians,
you know, I I know you only have like the
two holidays, whereas we have like fifty you know, and

(33:22):
and like I mean, Hanakah has really only lumped in
with Christmas at all, Like we don't need hanaka songs
and movies so much because it's actually a very minor holiday.
The only reason that it's put together that that you
like get exchange presents at all is because of capitalism
and marketing and you know, putting these things in to
make more money to market to more people. See some
Jews in the audience nodding um and then but yeah,

(33:43):
but that's and that's so it's it's you know, it's
one of many holidays for us. I get that, like
Christmas is like a big deal, but I don't get
why you guys want to make Christmas sexy. Believe me,
I am all for sexy things, Like sexiness has its own,
has it, Like you know, there's a time and place
for a lot of sexy things. And you know, I
have nothing against sexiness, but like, Christmas isn't a sexy thing.

(34:05):
And I don't know why this song about being cold
and and you know this this playful creepiness where it's
actually written as the parts are the parts for that
song are actually called wolf and mouse. I don't know
if you guys knew that. Yeah, And and there's so
many people now who there there's there's a backlash to,

(34:25):
and then there's the backlash to the backlash, and then
there was the backlash of the backlash of the backlash.
But just like overall, like fuck that song. It's not
a good song. And Christmas isn't sexy. There's nothing sexy
about hanging around with your family. I love my family,
I'm close with my family, but there is nothing sexy
about that. Yes, agree, I totally agree with my family sexy,

(34:51):
no kidding. One star. So the shower scene is troubling,
and then a moment the worst leaning up to the
shower scene is also troubling because it's Buddy seeing Jovi
for the first time. There's like this like angelic lighting
that lights up from the Christmas tree and he's like oh,

(35:14):
and then he goes over to her and tries to
initiate a conversation and a few different times she either says,
please stop talking to me, go away, thanks, but I
don't sing. He's like trying to get her to sing
or something, and then he like blocks her from being
able to move. She's like trying to get past him
and he's like blocking her path. And then just a
few scenes later is the shower scene where he hears

(35:36):
her singing goes into the women's locker room. Also there
the Elves get a locker room, Like what is this place?
I was just like, this is a really nice shower
they actually they do. They have and and one thing
that I noticed there is that she goes, why are
you bothering me? Did Crumpet put you up to this?
And I and I realized that was David Sedaris's name.

(35:57):
When he was in Santa Land, he wrote a book,
you know, the Santaland Diaries, and he wrote that into
a lot of his writings, and I was like, oh,
Amy Sadaris, his sister is in this movie. That's probably
a shout out to to David saderas a lot of
the you know, New York comedians knew him, and uh
and yeah, but yeah, he has written about, and he
has says that they did actually get locker rooms to
change in. Interesting. Yeah, and because they had like their

(36:19):
special uniforms that were given to them, you had to
you know, you had to wear what it was you
would change and you know, they probably weren't as nice
as the ones they're also Zoeya Shanell says she's showering
there because her water was turned off. But like it
shows her apartment later and that is a nice apartment
by New York standards. That is a nice big apartment
to be living in, you know, on your own, right.

(36:39):
But she's eating ramen, so she's poor, yes, But because
he has such a childlike understanding of the world, he
doesn't realize that he's like invading this space. Apparently doesn't
realize that she is naked in the shower and then
just like is sitting near where she is and then
sings along with her. So that's horrible and scary. Um.

(37:01):
She does confront him a few scenes later where she
but that scene ends with her being like because she
starts by saying like, hey, I need to talk to you,
and then she asked him, why did you do that?
And he's like, what I just love Christmas. And then
she's like Okay, it's like that is they could have

(37:22):
cut the first two scenes and replaced it with anything
I feel like, yeah, to establish their relationship because like,
because watching this, I the thing is that, like I know,
there's the obnoxious like you know, this person makes you
see the world in like a different way. But like
I've got to say that like being like a grumpy,
morbid person myself, Like I have dated a lot of

(37:42):
people where like they came in and they were like,
let's have fun and I was like the grudge and
be like okay, and then I was like, alright, fun,
I'm actually having fun. Okay, this is a good time.
And yeah, that's actually like that's happened to me in
my life, where like, you know, you meet somebody cheerful
and in affect your life in a positive way, Like
that is a thing that happens. It's a stupid trope,
but it is a thing that has happened in my
life at least, And you know it could have been

(38:03):
done in a way without him creeping on her, right,
But the fact that so many romantic storylines in movies
start out this way where it's like she's like, no, no, no,
get away from me, don't talk to me. The most
egregious example of this, I think, at least of the
movies that we've covered, was The Notebook, where like Rachel
McAdam says, no, like kill myself if you don't go

(38:24):
on a little date with me. You know. I had
a guy come up to me. I was I was
actually I think my friend is in the audience tonight,
who was with me. We were in Europe together after
my as she's smiling, I can see her. Uh. And
I was in Vienna and we were like separated for
a few days and I went off on my own
to this park and there was like a ferris wheel nearby,

(38:44):
and this guy came by and asked me, asked me
to go out with him and go to a party
with him, and I was like no, and I told
him over and over again. I was like, no, I
have a boyfriend's no, I'm not interested. I'm not interested.
And he tried to get really philosophical and ME was like,
but you just don't know where life is going to
leave to you. And I think eventually I just walked away.
He never did anything like physically threatening. He was just
it was just kind of stupid. But like I told

(39:07):
some people about it afterwards and they were like, oh,
like the Notebook, Oh that romantic fan Pi. That's yeah,
that movie is just like The Notebooks a whole other situation. Yeah.
I think it's like I'm gonna kill myself if you
don't be my girlfriend. Well yeah, see, I I had
like a really complicated relationship with that movie because I

(39:27):
was like so much about this as upsetting, but I
had like a really big crush on Rachel McAdams, so yeah,
so but then I watched her in other things, so
you know. Yeah. The thing that's especially troubling about this
movie is that it is appropriate for children, So like
kids are seeing this and they're like, oh, that's how

(39:48):
you ask a woman out. You wear her down until
she finally says yes, and then that works. And that's yeah.
I mean, it's like a lot of it is. It's
like super trophy. And I would almost attribute it to
bad writing. But it's bad writing because so many people
had already done uh freaky not good relationship that teaches

(40:10):
you to not respect what a woman is telling you.
I don't think I mean, I don't think it's a
badly written movie, I think, But I do, yeah, I mean,
I do think that there was I think that there
was also kind of a thing at the time. I mean,
maybe I'm also defending it because it was a Jewish
man who wrote this, and I like feel for my
my fellow Jewish film people making and being in Christmas movies. Um,
but now I feel like it was just kind of

(40:30):
a weird common trope. At the time, the early two thousand's,
there was just this huge, like plethora of romantic comedies
and that was in like every single one of them. Well,
this is the year being worn down. I'm pretty sure
this is the same year is Love Actually comes out?
Love Actually? And I think the Notebook too there. Yeah,
I mean I think it's like all in the same
year that these come out. So that's not the greatest

(40:53):
And I don't know, I mean, I don't think it's
a badly written movie. I think that that's the romantic
plot is was not written very thoughtfully, because there is
a version of this story that Zoey Deschanel's character goes
on to do anything else other than show up in
the last scene and be like nol la la la

(41:14):
la la la yeah, and so so in now it
it's just if you take her character out of the movie,
how much changes. I feel like Buddy's character changes enough
just with his own family that you can sort of
get to the same place, which just to me is like, well,

(41:34):
and she's not given enough to do and she's just
so underwritten as a character that when he does ask
her out, we she says yes, but we don't know
why because she's so underwritten that she has nothing in
common with him because we don't know anything about her.
And then okay, so I want to talk about the
scene where he does ask her out because his brother

(41:56):
is with him, this twelve year old kid, and he's like, hey,
Buddy asked her out on a date to eat food.
And if she says yes, you're in. It's like a
secret code girls have. And I think that's meant to
be a joke. Yeah, I think, but yeah, but it's

(42:17):
implying that a woman's saying yes a K giving consent
is code for yes yes yes means yes. I guess.
I don't know, Like it sounds like it might not
be a code. I was like trying to process, like

(42:38):
is this meant to be like a really funny joke
or is it just like, look at this dumb kid
who doesn't understand like dating yet. But like I was
just like, what a weird line dad into the movie.
I do think that that was supposed to be a
joke in the like whole like Michael's like the child
what is beyond his years and He's gonna show buddy

(42:59):
how to because I'm like, because Michael's dating all the time,
he's twelve, you know. Well, I mean that's kind of
the theme of the movie. I feel like that's the
theme of a lot of Christmas movies, is is you know,
the innocent will lead us, and there's this message of
maintain that childhood innocence and also just believe. It's interesting
to me that so many Christmas movies have the message

(43:19):
of just believe in everything will come to you. You know.
It's this you know, just believe and believe in Santa Claus.
And I always thought that was kind of weird from
an outsider's perspective, you know, once I was sort of
old enough to take a look at that, you know,
and people would point that out in Christmas movie that
I was in. I was like, yeah, I guess it
is kind of weird that you are telling children. The
message here is like over and over again, believe, believe, believe, believe,

(43:41):
and then later on it's like, oh, by the way,
that's a lie. By the way, that's not true. And
I mean that's not to say, like, of course, I
do think that there is value in in you know,
celebrating Christmas with Santa Claus and you know, having these
sort of magical moments with children, Like I don't think
these are a bad thing at all, but I do
think that it's interesting that the message that always comes
across is like stay young, stay innocent, and always believe

(44:03):
unless we are in like the third act of a
Christmas movie right now, and Kurt Russell as hot Santa
is gonna like burst in and be like we need
you to believe or else we're kind of and then
the three of us need to be like, okay, we
believe and yeah, you're right. Also, like, it always annoyed
me that, like it annoyed me that Santa got so

(44:25):
much credit for going all over the world and it's like, yeah,
he probably skips like the majority like Buddhist and Muslim countries,
you know, so he probably he has he stops a
few places, you know, and then and then gets in
his sleigh. It's not it's it's all the Christian families.
It's not you know, he's he's slacking off. It's not
the whole world. Also, Santa Santa as he's presented in
this movie is kind of all over the place where

(44:48):
Santa like brags to Buddy several times, like I know
how the world works. I'm fucking Santa. But then when
Buddy is like, cool, I'm going to the world, Santa
gives him, oh advice, He's just like, cool, good luck. Also,
that famous race sucks. It sucks. I got food poisoning
from there, anyway, go on, yeah, I don't know that. Yeah.

(45:11):
And then at the end Santa, when Santa needs helped,
when Santa x Mocina falls out of the sky, he
is like, hey, everyone fixed my sleigh. I was like,
what was your plan? B sir? Like what how would
we have gotten this up? So, like, Buddy travels to
New York City from the North Pole on foot, and
it seems like Christmas is only like a week or

(45:32):
two later. Why didn't he just wait and then Santa
could give him a ride? Like it was something he
had to do on his own. Come on, yes. Also,
can we talk about how um naughty has exactly two
connotations and it's Christmas if you're naughty or nice, or
it's sexy. So actually I think Christmas is sexy. But

(45:58):
actually this is one of the reasons I think that
Christmas is creepy, and maybe that's why I don't like
the word naughty anyway, Okay, when we talk about the
surprise kiss that happens because Buddy and Jovi go on
their date, they're ice skating, he surprised kisses her on

(46:19):
the cheek, but then she's like you missed, and he's
like what, and then she grabs his face and then
kisses him on the lips. So she was, as was
the audience. We are allowed to believe into him kissing her,
but he just like lunged at her initially, like I
don't know, it's the whole thing of him being sexual,
even though we've only seen him act like a child

(46:42):
up until that point. He's like eating pop tarts and
like gum drops on spaghetti with maple syrup and chocolates
like he's a baby. And it always appear to me
in movies where they when they sexualize either children or
childlike characters. You know, that always bothers me. It is weird.
I mean like weird. Did Buddy learn to kiss? You know? Also,

(47:04):
he's you know, he's thirty right. Being in the North
Pole does not explain why he has a baby's brain, Like,
there are the other elves with him seem to be
regular adults who can like function the world as adults,
so it does well, why is he a baby? I
think that in this movie the something that is confusing,

(47:25):
but it's like he's so fun to watch that we
don't question it. Is that, like happiness and stupidity are
conflated completely. He's happy, so he must be idiot. He
can't even read. Yeah, yeah, Like you're like, oh, it
works for the character, but then when you bring him

(47:47):
out in the world, you're like, wait, I thought he
was just happy when he was just happy and too
big for the chairs. But there are some female characters
in this movie that I like, but they are not
given a lot to do. Um. One of them is
a Airiss, the secretary. She's who you here talking on
the phone to a friend saying that she she's like, well,
I don't know, deb I've never declaude kittens before, but

(48:09):
I guess I can do it. Like I want a
movie about her. And and this is Amy Sadaris, so
she probably came up with that on the fly, which
it is her talking to another woman. Um. And and
you know, imagine if it this this movie barely kind
of sort of passes, but only because of that was
she probably just made up? Um. But there's also there's

(48:31):
also I also like Mary stein Virgin's character. I like
Mary stein Virgin in general. I think, yeah, I love
her too. There is a lot of actors in this
movie that I really love. But she she is very
okay and excited and happy about Buddy being there. She's
not like, he's not my son, I don't want him here.
He She is very encouraging. She's like, I can't wait
to meet your son. It's so sad, but so beautiful

(48:54):
that this happened, you know where. Let's make him a
part of the family. So there isn't this evil stepmother trope.
Just nice, it's this very warm, welcoming one. Yeah, it
would have been an easy choice to make her like
a very shrewy like I'm jealous and I don't want
this strange man from the woman that you've fucked earlier
to be in my house. Also, she talks a lot

(49:14):
about her job. She's like, I have an accounts meeting
or an accounting meeting that day. She's got her own career, right,
we don't really know she's There's one time she's like,
I have to do the budgets this, that's what it is.
Like yep, sure, because he was like, you stay home
and take care of Buddy, because James con no, no, no, budgets. Yeah,

(49:35):
and he's like, I stand corrected. But that's another thing
with Buddy's character where he has such a bizarre blind
spot to adult women in general, where he never questions
like what went on with my biological mom? That's never
really a question that's raised. Also, elves know what death
is like? Is this going to be a shock for him? Uh?

(49:56):
And then with Mary stein Bergin's character, she is showing
him much more love and acceptance and affection. And it's
not that he responds to that negatively, but he's just
sort of like, cool, thanks, here's some spaghetti. And but
like he he doesn't get attached to her in a
way that he gets he really only but with the
exception of Zoe Deschanelle's character only gets attached to like

(50:20):
other men around him. Maybe he's also attracted to people
who don't like him, because Zoe Does's character doesn't like
him at first. He's just kind of like, I don't understand,
you know, he he but it's it's it's not exactly healthy.
I mean, like I feel like I'm totally over analyzing this.
But you know, let's armchair diagnosed buddy. Well, that's a

(50:41):
thing about this movie is that mental health is treated
really in a strange and mishandled way, where like people
keep saying the buddy is insane or that he's chemically imbalanced.
That phrase gets thrown around and then the doctor character
played by Jon Favreau says something like, oh, yeah, he's
probably reverting to this like stage of blah blah blah whatever.

(51:04):
Just take him home and he'll probably drop the whole
act after a while. And it's like, I'm sorry, that's
your medical advice, doctor, Okay, uh yeah. Dr Jon Favre
prescribes like love, You're just like alright, cool. That feels
like a very two thousand three thing. Now, that was
very much you know, the age of the secret and
just like just be better about it and you'll be better,

(51:25):
you know, just to be better about it. And yeah,
this is such a because I was like, oh, two thousands,
it is such like a Bush era movie in general,
because you're like, okay, well everyone's white and uh, and
that we do see a black Santa. We do see
a black Santa boss at the department store because they
have to fire the other Santa who gets into a fight,

(51:46):
and then he assumes the role at Santa. Will Farrell
was like in every movie in those days, like he
really was. I remember like all of us joking like
you know when we were I don't know, remember having
like a joke with my friends like when we really
tired it from school, being like wish we could have
whatever Will Ferrell is having. I don't know. This is
what theater and film majors, you know. I think it's funny,

(52:06):
I guess. But yeah, because he was he was just
in everything in those days. He was in. He would
be in like five movies a year, and it was
just like this is this is it? Yeah, there's another
quick point. And I wanted to make about so towards
the end um, whenever they're trying to prove that Santa
is real in like they're all everyone's in Central Park
and Michael gets ahold of Santa's list of naughty people

(52:29):
and nice people too, and um, he starts treating from
it on the air. So he's going through and he
was like, this girl wants a pop up girl's place that,
this boy wants an electric guitar. This girl wants a
dog called Susie, talks a lot, and then this boy
wants talking a lot. Uh, this boy wants a pair

(52:51):
of like Nike shoes. This grown woman which we talked
about once, Tiffany engagement ring and her boyfriend to stopped
dragging his feet and to commit already. So it's he's
like very gendered like toys, where like the boys want
like the tough, traditionally masculine toys and the girls all
want like dolls or um. And not to like disparage

(53:14):
any of that, but it is so again you're just like, oh,
we're not thinking above what the normal thing would be here.
And then the one guy who they're like, oh, this
guy wants a spa thing, and it cuts to a
grown man and then like everyone turns to him and
they're like, Oh, you want to relax, you fucking and

(53:38):
that's like it's also the age of the metrosexual too,
like that was the thing you had like straight men
talking about getting pedicures in you know, in People magazine
all the time. So it was a little weird. Yeah,
but like the one time that there was like, oh,
we're gonna like not adhere to this like rigid gender
toy norm thing is like a guy who wants like

(53:59):
a and everyone's like, what a fucking disgusting sick. There's
like a few moments that I think sort of fall
under the same umbrella that happened between Buddy and his
dad a few times where it's weird because like with Buddy,
once he's in New York, everything has to be like,

(54:19):
well there was a boundary issue there too. But with
the dad, there's times where he's like and then we
could hold hands and then we could cuddle, and the
dad's like, no, I would never cuddle with my son,
and it's just like very again, it's like the gender
norms of male affection works with handshakes and that's it.

(54:40):
You can't spoon your son. I mean, the movie does
end with with Buddy sitting on his adoptive father's lap.
So yeah, I mean never had an issue with it.
Daddy Elf was always very affectionate, but it was crushing
Daddy Elf sounds yeah, it sounds like a wine. Oh
that was my question. Okay, as it pertains to Buddy's

(55:02):
understanding of sexuality, So elves, how much are they fucking right?
Because they live a long time. Maybe they're not super
horny because species wise, they don't need to stay with me.
They don't because they don't need to reproduce as much.
Maybe they're not as horny than people with less time.

(55:29):
So like, how like how sea turtles are like the
like the land turtles only funck like like once every
you know, ten years or something, because you're like they're like, well,
you know, I've got time. I don't need to be
frantically fucking all the time. I'm a turtle. So I'm
getting closer. So I think why Buddy has the brain

(55:53):
of a baby is because elves live a thousand years,
and so if he's thirty, he's basically three, you know
what I mean. So he's like la la la, because
the elves when they're thirty, they're like, we're not going
to be fucking for like, you know, for for at
least a century plus. What my original question was was,

(56:20):
has Buddy seen porn? Like elf porn? It would have
to be elf born. I mean, I don't know what
else it would be unless I don't know. That's my
I guess that's his understanding of sexuality, because he does
marry the first woman he meets. Yeah, what was that conversation?

(56:40):
What was his understanding? I don't know. I get, well,
it's the born sexy Yesterday thing again. She has to
teach him how to sex and then he's like, Okay,
that's Mary. I don't know if that's responsible. I don't know.
My only question was was their porn? Okay? Well, but
no one has that answer. Does anyone have any other

(57:02):
things they want to talk about? I didn't want to say. Yeah.
I I that this movie was both written and directed
by Jewish people, which I kind of find interesting. And
but I mean, if you actually look at it, like
most of the songs, like most of the best Christmas
songs were also written, like like Urban Berlin and you
know Ruth Red Red Nose Reindeer, all these songs were
written by Jewish people, So like it is kind of Yeah,

(57:26):
it's kind of it's kind of funny and kind of
strange that that, like this movie where it's all about
Christmas spirit. Christmas Spirit is was written by by people
who like had rabbi's performed their weddings and stuff. But
but yeah, I don't know. I I that I found
I think very interesting. Oh also Peter, Yeah, the thing
with Peter, the scene with Peter Dinklage where they're just
like making fun of him, where Buddy just keeps calling

(57:49):
him an elf, like over and over again. Like even
in like two thousand and three, I was like, this
is not this isn't cool. Yeah, isn't funny. No, it's
not funny. And then then it's like okay, I mean
the Peter dinklich character wins the fight and says everything
that the audience is even though he's he comes in
hot of like I fuck more than you'll fucking your life,

(58:12):
where you're just like whoa now starts every argument that way? Uh?
But I yeah, I I couldn't make heads or tails
of that scene. Yeah, Like that would have been insensitive
in two thousand and three, and now it just is
like who what whose idea was this? And what did

(58:35):
it add Yeah, at the very least, buddies insensitive comments
go challenged by the person that he's directing them toward.
But it sucks that like the one time you get
representation on screen of a little person, it's like, oh,
you're enough, it's the joke. Yeah, And Peter dinklis has
been very good about saying like, I don't never want

(58:56):
to play Elves. I want to play these characters that
are you know, where they're either you know, actual people,
they're not. It's not a joking thing where it's not
treated in this certain way or it's addressed, but it's
an addressed in an in an honest and open way
and not you know and not like this. So I
do think it's interesting that that he chose this movie,
But I mean, like that's his bardom, that's his choice.

(59:18):
And and I love see I love Peter English, so
I love seeing him in anything like I don't know
if you always saw that meme where there it's just
the Game of Thrones theme, but it's just the words
Peter Dankledge song to the theme Dinklage Peter dlishe. Yeah,
I love that meme because I love Peter d Engklige. Yeah,
I mean, I mean I do remember thinking when like
he said, like I never do do these things. I

(59:39):
was like, I wonder how he feels about ELF in retrospect,
kind of like the way that Viola Davis has said,
like she feels conflicted about the help and you know,
something like that. I was always like, I wonder if
he if he you know, I mean he does get
to be strong and kick Will Ferrell's ass. So yeah,
I mean I did. I regret everything I said yesterday.
So I'm sure like people who have done things, you know,

(01:00:02):
from the early two thousand's, and they might do it
differently today. It's just yeah that I mean, I was
in some movies in the early two thousand's that yeah,
so I completely understand now I'm kidding that here. I
had a great time making them. Blah blah blah blah
blah represent represent explanation. Um I did. It's true, I did,
even if I wasn't done always the best movies. But yeah, anyway,

(01:00:23):
go on, But that I don't know that moment, just
like it is so bizarre because most of the like
quote unquote misunderstandings that Buddy has in the real world
are usually pretty innocent and it you know, it's not
always the greatest joke of your life, but you're like,
he don't understand how doors work. He crazy man. And

(01:00:43):
then all of a sudden it's like, but what if
he did this very offensive thing? But we still love
him so much, and it just is, it's such. It
was just a strange choice, especially like that role was
written specifically as a cast a little person. It's not
a little person, just who can exist in the world
as a normal person. That role was written so that

(01:01:05):
he could then be made fun of, so I mean,
and Peter Nichols has been in many other movies where
that's not the case, so that's good, But for this movie,
that's the scenario, and it's you know, not the best.
I hope his residuals are good. They are because, as
I told you, Christmas movies, they pay love it um

(01:01:27):
any other any other thoughts. There is a really good
cast in this movie, Like that's that's a thing. There's
a lot of really good actors in I forgot that
Amy Sadaris was in it, and she's one of my
strangers with Candy. I don't know if anyone's seen it
but that's like one of the big shows ever and
she is phenomenal in it, but too bad that she
gets maybe a minute and thirty seconds of screen time,

(01:01:47):
Like she hardly has any bearing on the story. She's
I think she's like the one woman working at the
office there. Yeah, there's there's two women. There's like a
woman that he compliments wearing a purple dress. Wearing a
purple dress, yes, um, but yeah, she's she's one of
two women that work in that office, which I mean
that is not true of publishing. I've got to tell
you you go to publishing and it's like I love

(01:02:08):
going to my publisher's office because it was just like
a bunch of like short women in uh like sweaters
that were just covered in cat and dog hair. I
was just like, I love you guys. You are my people,
especially children's publishing. Yeah, I'm like, why was this? I
did appreciate seeing an older white male character who was

(01:02:29):
just blatantly horrible at his job and should have been fired. Like,
we don't very frequently get to see mediocrity on full display.
And I was like, we do, but it's not acknowledge exactly.
They're like, well, of course, he has this job. As
one of my favorite tropes ever is uh the story

(01:02:50):
within the story and everybody's like, wow, this is the
most amazing thing ever where people will be like this
story or this movie is just fantastic, and it's like,
of course they think the author wrote them both. You know,
like like everybody's just so into the story. So I do,
I do. I've kind of find it funny that it's like,
you know, he made millions, you know with Buddy the
Elf the book right, which is which is such a

(01:03:12):
great story. I'd watch a movie about it and go
see a musical or see a musical about it. Well,
let's take some questions or comments from the audience, if
we've got any, Yeah, come on down so you can
be on the mic. Um, I'm curious to hear what
you guys think about that special Someone joke because I

(01:03:35):
feel like they were kind of making fun of women's
sexuality within that joke when Buddy gave that lingerie to
his dad, which was like really uncomfortable in all sense
of worn. Clearly Buddy hasn't seen porn. There's my answer. No,

(01:03:59):
But also maybe elf sexy stuff is different. Maybe it
is right. So the joke is that he sees in
the store like a sign that's like get this for
your someone special, and it's like sexy lingerie. Uh, and
then he gives it to his dad because again, he
has the brain of a child, and he has no
understanding of sexuality or that that would not be an

(01:04:20):
appropriate gift to give his father. So I don't know,
I don't know if it's making fun of women's sexuality
so much is that it's making fun of his inability
to understand anything about the world. But the fact that
it is like a sexy woman's garment is the butt
of the joke. So that at the end you see
it on the chair next to Mary's Team Virgin, So

(01:04:41):
he probably passed it on. But I always wondered, like
she think, yeah, like like you might have this like
love actually moment where she comes across this this nightgown
and is like is this for me? Or is this
for someone else? Or is this you know? And but
he's just very lucky that he chose her her size,
because that could have led to some like like anxiety

(01:05:03):
and doubt and confusion and like disbelieve in, you know,
in their marriage, which already was like not the most,
you know, happy and healthy, it seems. I mean the
first scene when he comes home and he's like I'm
not eating with you and leaves and she's like okay,
and then the sun is like can I leave as well?
I was like, poor Mary has been here for a
minute and everyone she's way too accommodating, especially to her,

(01:05:27):
like she's really shitty husband who's a bad husband and
a bad father and and bad at his job. He's
really not good at much. But she's I feel like
so underwritten that she was like, well, what, everything's fine?
So Christmas? Any any other thoughts questions? Yeah, come on down. Um,

(01:05:48):
since this movie is severely lacking in diversity, who would
you cast as Alfred Molina? Thank you for asking. Um.
I have a lot of opinions. I think that Alfred Molina,
you know, could have been Buddy. Obviously, he could have
been buddy. He can play anything, right. Uh oh, he

(01:06:11):
could have been daddy help easily. But what I think
is the best solution is to cast him as James
CON's son. That would be the ideal that they're like,
oh here's my son, Michael. He's twelve. Alfred Molina is
not even doing an American accent, just bully Brenda. She's like, hello,

(01:06:37):
my name is Michael. I'm surprised you didn't. I'm surprised
you didn't say Santa yea. I well, no, I have
to cast him as Santa in Santa University, so I
can't have him being associated with another Santa franchise. That's
just good business. So but yeah, no, I think he
would play I think, you know, we know he can

(01:06:58):
play anything, so let's see if he can a twelve
year old. Great question, Thank you for any others? Oh yeah,
where hi? I was wondering what you all thought about
feminist icon raccoon who attacks Buddy good call, good call?

(01:07:18):
First of all, how many nipples does a raccoon have? Eight, ten, twelve?
I don't know, we don't know. I don't know what
if it's just one? Does any animal? Does any animal
have one? I don't think so. I think it's always even,
it's always sets. They come in sets. But well, your question,

(01:07:41):
what do I think of him? I think that indeed,
femtast icon, maybe even queer icon. I think that the
raccoon is certainly an ally um And also Buddy who's
not good at you know, listening per se to what
people are trying to communicate to him. Raccoon is like
being explicitly clear, and so we know moment one, but

(01:08:06):
he's not going to take cues in this world. And
I know in two thousand three we were all there,
go with me on this journey. Uh. And and two
thousand three we're like, oh my god, the raccoons being
so rude to will farell Is the raccoon on her period? Yeah,
like what is wrong with raccoons? I know a lot
about raccoons, but I don't know if they actually I

(01:08:27):
don't think they do. I think it's like, no, they do,
but it's like it's not like human is. It's like
you don't see it. That sounds better. Uh. But then
in eighteen we're like, actually, where's the film? Frand tries
for the raccoon because she really has a story we
didn't explore, so her and her I think she should

(01:08:50):
be in a movie with Amy, Saidaris, and Amy Saidarius
will be like, boy, I've never had clawda raccoon before,
and you know, and the raccoons. The raccoon teaches her
that liked clawing is like actually bad and you shouldn't
do it because it hurts your cats. And I'm a
cat lady, so I know this. But yeah, that's that's I.
I do also love raccoons. I'm I'm always in support
of raccoons and almost everything. They're one of my favorite animals. Um,

(01:09:12):
I really love them. I have like a raccoon puppet
at home that pops out of a little garbage can.
So um, I'm I'm almost always on team Raccoon. I'm
almost always on on team Raccoons. So the puppet I
didn't see coming. I will say, Look, I was at
I was at I was at a convention, I was working,
and I saw I was like, oh, it's a little
stuffed animal. Oh okay, it's a puppet, all right. Well

(01:09:35):
I'll leave it half there. So people don't think that
I'm like a puppet person. Although I actually did learn
how to do puppetry at n y U. But that's
a whole other story. And what use a weird place, guys, Um,
I'm a puppet person. Yeah, we know. J know. Any
other questions or comments or anything like that, Oh yeah, um,
this is a long time ago. But you were talking

(01:09:55):
about baby it's cold outside and about how those lyrics
aren't great. And U there's actually a musician named Lydia
Eliza who has released a modernized like version of the song,
like updated lyrics, like she did it like a few
years ago. It sounds Spotify and also you can um
all the money that goes from that goes to like

(01:10:15):
Survivors and a couple of foundations as well, And it's
like a really funny take on this song. I guess
if you like babies Call Outside sort of but you
don't want to listen to the lyrics, that's that's a
good alternative. Yes, thank you so much. Check that out. Um.
I'm sorry not to challenge queer icon Raccoon because I

(01:10:38):
totally agree, but like, what about queer icon awkward claymation,
Mr Norwal Yes, fully excellent point. Yes, clearly we were
not as thorough as we should have been in this episode.
I'm pretty sure all the claimations are are they're they're

(01:11:00):
they're all queer, they're all queer. I mean, I don't know,
maybe that was just my reading of it, but no,
I think queer coded. Yes, yes, I I thought they
were all queer coded. That's the stemen from the Rudolph
the Red Nose reindeer animated movie. Right, okay, yeah, but
I agree with Narwhale. I would also argue that penguin,

(01:11:21):
what's the story there? You know, maybe that's Buddy's next
book is you know? I mean there are a lot
of gay penguins. So yes, yes, oh, has no one
else read this clickbait because it's true? All right? Well, hey,
does this movie past the Bechtel test? No, unless you

(01:11:45):
count Amy Saidari's talking to another woman on the phone,
I would say, because we don't hear them talking, then yeah,
because she is named. Her name is Connie, and they
are talking about Decline cats, which talk about a Bechtel
test passing scene. If the cats are male cats, I

(01:12:06):
still think it would pass. But she's named I think Connie,
And then Amy Sadaris's Character's name is deb But because
we don't hear Connie's voice in her side of the conversation,
I would say that does not pass. The only other
time where it comes close where women are interacting is
towards the end, whenever Jovi and Mary stein Bergen's character
Virgin Bergen. I think it's Virgin. They sing at each other,

(01:12:30):
but the song is about Santa Claus, so it does
not pass. And they're also not actually talking to each other.
And that's all you get with women interacting in the movie. Elf. Yeah,
there's really not much happening there. Well, let's write the
movie on our nipple scale, shall we? Yeah? Yeah, zero
to five nipples based on his portrayal of women. I'm

(01:12:53):
gonna give it a half nipple. We're zero it is
it even? I think it's zero? Yeah, I'm gonna give
it zero nipples because between Zoe's character, which the arc
of that is that he harasses her and wears her
down into eventually going out with him, and then basically

(01:13:17):
her function in the story is to help him grow
is a person, so she doesn't have any sort of
her own character, her own stories all just about like
characterizing him. Mary Steinberger's character, did I say it right?
I don't know. We've said both ways, so we're gonna
be right the chance she is very underwritten, as is

(01:13:38):
Amy Saidar's character, like they're just they exist in the
story to support the men around them. And um, yeah,
it's a very white movie. It's a very hetero movie.
So zero nipples. And that's the end of my speech.
I'm gonna go with I'll give it one, okay, give

(01:14:03):
it half of one, okay, because I think, as with
most movies we cover, there's a lot of missed potential
where at very least I'm going back to one. Okay,
I'm going back to one because especially with Mary stein
Bergen's character, Uh, there were a lot of trophy pitfalls

(01:14:26):
this character could have gone to that the writer didn't
go in that direction and instead win in no direction
and sort of made her like an inconsequential character where
you know, and then there's moments where you're like, oh,
Jovie is advocating for herself, she's communicating clearly, don't do this,

(01:14:46):
don't do this, but she still ends up with the
guy that always does it anyways, And so there. I
think the few female characters we have there is potential
in them, but because they never technically get to meet
each other, and because of I mean, the whole circumstance
of how like you were saying, they only exist as

(01:15:08):
it pertends to male characters, we just lose that. And
I think that there is you know, a version of
this story where one of the many male characters is
written out to make room for Marrier's always character that
ends up in a much more interesting movie. Also scary
white ist ever fashion north Pole, No, thank you, very freaky.

(01:15:32):
Um but the claymation was queer, but but queer code
and we're coded. Also, why isn't Santa a woman? All
female reboot of Christmas? They mentioned Mrs Claws, but it's
it's just Mrs Claus made that for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

(01:15:54):
Ariana Grande Santa is a woman, major Christmas draw calling
it maw why not beat a dead horse? Okay, no, yeah,
So I'll go one strictly on completely missed potential. Uh
and because there are still parts of this movie that

(01:16:17):
I thought I had seen, uh that I thought we're
sweet and it's nice to see a leading male character
who is not inherently macho toxic. So one nippy and
I'm giving it to the raccoon. Yeah, I was, Yeah,
I was gonna I was gonna say too, but then

(01:16:37):
I realized I was pretty much gonna say everything that
Jamie said. So I feel kind of like I kind
of have to bump it down to one and a half.
I do think that the women are often the most
interesting characters in this in this movie, and uh and
I like a lot of the actors, you know, I
love Amy Sai Arris, I love marysin Virgin Steven Bergkin.
Um So, I I think that there's yeah, there's there's
definitely that, and I do think there's there is something

(01:16:59):
sweet and are about like you know, your your biology
not being your destiny, and and like there's one there
is a message. They're sort of a like I mean,
I guess he does like find his biological family, but
it's also it is also like you are also the
people that raised you, and you know, and that doesn't
necessarily have to be the people that brought you into
the world, you know. And and so I think that

(01:17:19):
that is that is kind of a nice message that
that you find in the movie there. Um So, yeah,
I think I think I probably would have to say
one and a half because but I do feel very
much like there were missed opportunities and there was more
that could be done and it makes me sad that
that there weren't. Um I do still think that it
is like a sweet movie. I think it is very

(01:17:40):
much of its time. There is this like really weird
like period. The two thousands were like there were some
good movies, but just like the culture I feel like
of entertainment at that time was really weird, and there
was a lot of stuff that went on that like
really shouldn't have and and so like even like the
movies that are good, or even the movies that are sweet,
like have this weird you know kind of like Aspertain,
you know, after like after days to them of like

(01:18:02):
like that was sweet, but what is this. We've covered
a lot of those movies on the podcast. Yeah. I
always come to the same conclu Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've
been I've been listening. I was just listening to Miscongeniality
episode and it was like, oh, yeah, right, that was
sensibly okay back then, it wasn't that long ago that
that was okay, that's weird. But yeah, two thousands were
culture waste land fight me. That's not true. We had

(01:18:26):
we had mean girls, We had the Wire you know,
which I which were equal in my eyes? Now? No,
um no, we had we had you know, we did
have culture back there. We had Beyonce. But like it
was a very strange, very conservative time. I think there
wasn't a lot of risk taking. Would you like to
give your nipples to anyone? Just as little Christmas tokens.
Would would I like to give my nipples to anual

(01:18:46):
not not your sorry Caitlin as a Christmas Ok? Yeah, sorry,
I like I had a sorry. I had a moment
of like of like you know, um, I mean I
would also love to give them to the raccoon, but
I think I'm going to give them to the kittens
that need to be to Claude. Oh yes, thank you

(01:19:07):
so much for being here. Hello, thank you for having me.
I didn't think I had strong feelings on this movie,
but I guess I did. We all do. Um. Where
can people find you online? Is that you would like
to plug? Yeah? You can find me at Marrow Wilson
on Twitter. You can go tomorrow dot substack dot com
for my newsletter. It's called We Tell the Vicar because

(01:19:30):
every week I closed with a fake BBC show title. Um.
That's one of my favorite things, making fun of British
television shows because they all have ridiculous names. Yeah, you
can find me there. Um, I'm on the show Big
Hero six. If you have children, uh and so, yeah,
you can just go ahead and follow me there. Awesome,
Thank you so much. You can follow us at all
the normal places. Thanks, for coming, Thanks for happy holidays,

(01:19:53):
and we'll see you next time. Thank you. Oh hey everyone,
that was our our live show episode like that. Oh
they loved it. Anyway, Well, we just want to say
thank you again to our guest Smarrow Wilson. Thanks again
to the Ruby. Just a reminder that we have a
live show there every second Saturday of the month at

(01:20:16):
nine pm. So give us a little kiss. Yeah, only
if you want to, and only if we want you to.
I'm just all about consent here, you know, give us
a little kiss. Jamie granted her. I do not touch
me or look me in the eye. Come give me
a little kiss. And now it sounds like I'm soliciting.

(01:20:39):
So anyways, come to the Ruby and we'll just you know,
feel things out. Yes, right, that's great. Um. Anyway, you
can follow us on social media at bectel Cast. You
can write and review us on iTunes. That helps us. Yes,
that's your Christmas present to us. Yes, please give us
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(01:21:02):
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Casts and check out our merch If you're looking for
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and all the ones you know and love, so check

(01:21:24):
them out. Yes, indeed, well, Happy holidays to you, Jamie,
and happy holidays to us all. Happy holiday, Seve, kay okay,
bye bye