Ghost World with Julie Klausner

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, everyone. We wanted to include a quick content warning
for this episode regarding a discussion we have about something
in today's film that can easily be interpreted as sexual misconduct.
Thanks for listening. On the beck Del Cast, the questions
asked if movies have women in um, are all their

(00:20):
discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism
the patriarchy zef invest start changing it with the Bechdel Cast. Hello,
and welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante.
My name Shamie Loftus. And this is our movie. This
is our movie. Nope, this is we made a movie.

(00:41):
This is our movie. Welcome to our movie. Uh, this
is our podcast. It's been on for four years. I
don't know why I said it was a movie. Well,
I thought you were going to say, like, this is
our movie podcast, this is our movie. Oh I could
have saved it in that way. You could have just
really seamlessly fixed it without anyone being any wiser. Well,
I only do one take. That's uh, something I famously do.

(01:06):
We're talking about ghost World today on our podcast, which
is about movies that uh yeah, it's been on for
many years. Oh, our podcast is about Oh, I thought
you meant the Ghost World is about movies. I'm like I,
I just like sorry. I just got out of a lobotomy,
so that's why I'm sounding this way. It's difficult. It's
a difficult day. Um five hundred degrees today and my

(01:28):
brain is just boiling in my head. Um, is this
a podcast? It's a podcast about movies in which we
examine the story through an intersectional feminist lens. It's inspired
by the Bechtel test by queer cartoonist Alice and Bechtel
is sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test. That requires, for

(01:50):
our purposes that too characters that are not coded male
with names speak to each other about something other than
a credited male character for two lines of dialogue. Doesn't
happen a lot? Yeah, but it does happen. Should we
test it out? Yeah, let's do it. Hey shamey? Yep, No,

(02:15):
I was gonna pull a quote from the movie and
nothing fits, so never Okay, I have no problem with that,
and that passes the test. Yep. Things that aren't good
dialogue pass the tests all the time. It's true. Let's
introduce our guest. Yes, she is the creator and star
of Difficult People. She is the co host of Double

(02:36):
Threat podcast. It's Julie Clausner. Hi. Hello, Hello, thanks for
having me, Thanks for being here. Absolutely, So we're talking
about Ghost World. Um, Julie, what's your relationship with this movie?
I love Ghost World is one of my favorite movies,
and I'm excited to talk about it in the context

(02:57):
of the Bechtel Test because us the film itself was
so dramatically different from the book source material, and a
lot of people have, you know, take great issue in
the focus of the film being on the relationship between
ing it and Seymour as opposed to in It and Rebecca,

(03:18):
and I completely understand that. I think of them as
two completely different works. But um, I think it's really
interesting to talk about that in the context of female
coded characters speaking to each other about things besides a
man or a crush. And while I think that, you know,

(03:39):
this is definitely a step in the in the failure
of that test direction, I just think it's such an
outstanding movie and its own right, exclusive of the source
material that UM, I'm just always excited to talk about
Ghost World. So are you familiar with the source material?
Have you read the comics. Yes, oh cool, okay, nice,

(03:59):
that's helpful for us. We don't quize me because also,
I didn't you watch this for the podcast. I just
figured I've seen it so many times that i'll, you know,
for sure, I don't. Just don't quiz me. I'm going
to fail. You know what, quiz me? No, let's do it.
Quiz me. I'm ready, let's do it. On page forty seven.
Come on, come on, how dare you? Jamie? What's your

(04:24):
relationship with this film? Very short? I had not seen
this movie before. I um, I don't know. I've been
It's been recommended to me for years and years, and
it was just one of those movies that I had
not gotten around to seeing, and I don't It's like
one of those movies that when I finally did watch it,
I don't know what I thought it was about. But

(04:46):
it's not whatever it was. It is not what the
movie is actually about. I feel like there's a ton
to talk about here. Yeah, I'm very conflicted. Like I
think that if I if I had seen this movie
when it came out and or like when I was
a team in, I would feel probably different about it
than just coming in to watch it for the backtel cast. Yeah,

(05:07):
I'm excited to talk about it. What about you, Caitlin?
Had you seen this before I had? Um? I saw it,
I think when I was a freshman in college. Um,
And that would have been a few years after it
came out. That would have been in like oh, four
oh five. I was about the same age as the characters.
And I I was also going to be like, I'm

(05:28):
sure if I had seen this when it came out,
I would feel differently about it. But I kind of
did see it at that age, and I, UM do not.
I can't say that I like this movie, and I
have reasons. I also am not a fan of this movie.
It's I don't know, I mean, but I know it's
value and also, Okay, so it's a huge it's a
big cult classic. It is very meaningful and very valuable

(05:51):
to a lot of people, such as yourself, Julie. I
want to acknowledge that. But again, yeah, I think because
like Jamie and I were watching it mostly through the
lens of our podcast. It's there's some issues. Oh, certainly
there's some issues, even not less, there's issues exclusive of
the podcast. Absolutely, Yeah, I think the thing that bumped

(06:13):
me the most on this watch and like analysis of
it was how much this movie attempts to deal with
race for an exclusively white cast and like in front
of the camera and behind like it's just it just
is the whitest movie on earth. No, no, there's no
race in this world. There's no race in this world.
But it also tries to address race through like a

(06:35):
lot of different plots. It shouldn't. Yeah, I guess what
I was saying. It's it is very bizarre. I think
that the Yeah, the most surprising thing to me about
the story, Like I was kind of I was like, Okay,
I'm sure that it will be dated in a number
of ways in the way it treats its characters, but
I was surprised that this movie even attempted to address race.
And uh, you mean in terms of the of the

(06:57):
poster of the old poster. Yeah, it's more has I
think that's more about the lens of like a white
person dealing with what art is. Because after this, he
made Art School Confidential, which is about being an artist
in you know, art school obviously, um, and and that
sort of debate that you have internally these four walls
and how different that is from the world outside. But

(07:19):
the race of it, I think is just a total
prop for the white characters to have a pointed departure.
It could have been almost anything, right, which means like
it shouldn't have been race. Yeah, Like, so they should
have just I feel like they just should have chosen
something something else that they were qualified to tackle. Yeah,
they could have. They could have chosen anything else. That's
from olden times. That's not okay, And we'll talk more

(07:42):
about that in a little bit. But um, should I
just dive into the story and we'll go from there. Yeah,
let's do it, all right. So we meet Enid and
Rebecca played by Soora Birch and Scarlett Johansson, respectively. They
are graduating from high school. They are a little They're

(08:05):
not like the other girls. They're a little countercut. They're
like the other girl. Like the other girls, they think
that everything sucks, which I personally can relate to. So
in that way, Yet it's a peak like seventeen year old,
which is in a way that is like sometimes painful
to look at. Sure, Yeah, Enid discovers that she has
to go to summer school and retake an art class.

(08:28):
We learn just a little bit about their back stories
as well. Um they are not going to go to college.
They plan to just enter the workforce and get an
apartment together and move in together. Then they see an
ad in the personal section for a guy who is
looking for this um striking blonde woman who he had

(08:49):
met at an airport shuttle and he thought they he
had a connection with her. So they call him two
more or less prank him. They pretend to be the
story a king blonde um and tell him to go
to this diner called Wowsville, which is great love it
great name. So Enid and Rebecca wait for him there

(09:12):
and they bring their friend Josh played by Brad Renfro,
who will find that, like Enid, maybe has a crush
on and so does maybe Rebecca. Not totally sure, totally clear.
And then and I don't know, there's some context for
that too, And like the ways that studios were trying
to push the script to go, there's versions of this

(09:33):
script where he takes on way more significance than he does,
and the finished in the version that was released. And
then the man from the ad shows up to Wallasville
and you'll never believe who it is. It's Steve Steve Bushey,
and he sits there. He waits, and they take pity
on him and decide to follow him home. He is

(09:56):
selling records at a garage sale. Becau he's a record
collector and he's a music enthusiast, and they decide to
go talk to him. They find out his name is Seymour.
Rebecca thinks he's a loser, but Enid is like, I
don't know, I think he's kind of cool. So Enid
listens to the record that she had bought from him.
She really likes it. She goes back to see him

(10:18):
and they talk about music, and then she and Rebecca
go to a party at Seymour's um David Cross is
there and he tries to hit on Rebecca and then
Seymour is like, Enid, I can't believe you came to
this party. I'm I'm such a loser. I haven't even
had a girlfriend in four years. And she's like, well,
I'll help you find a girlfriend. And then meanwhile, um,

(10:41):
we see Enid in her art class. We see her
her teacher criticizing her art projects that she breaks her
hates car tunes. Yes, you draw car too. This is
like Daniel Klow's like grinding a very personal ax and
I think a very obvious way where he's like, you know,
our teachers think cartoons are fucking stupid. Well guess what

(11:03):
they're not. Like. That's kind of his whole acts to
grind in the beginning of this storyline. If you draw
a cartoon, you suck. So I guess he had a
teacher that felt that way at some point, and he's
he's not over it, right, because the teacher in this
movie is often telling Enid that her projects are not

(11:26):
thoughtful or political enough. Um. Meanwhile, Rebecca has gotten a
job at a coffee shop. We will see Rebecca kind
of becoming and hearing more and more to like societal
conventions and expectations, and that she starts dressing a little
bit more kind of conventionally, and she um gets a

(11:47):
job and she wants to have her own home and
things like that, while Enid is still sort of trying
to live the counterculture life. And then Enid and Seymour
go to a bar to watch music and she tries
to set him up with this random woman there he
it doesn't work out, and then they go back to

(12:07):
Seymour's house and um, she finds this old poster from
a Chicken fast food restaurant where he works as an
assistant manager at their corporate headquarters. And this poster shows
a very racist name and image that the restaurant used
to like use. So she takes it with her, this

(12:29):
poster and brings it into her art class as a
found art project, and she says that with this piece,
she's making a statement about racism, how it's whitewashed in
our culture. And everyone in the class is like, wow,
that's pretty fucked up, but the teacher is like, wow,
what a remarkable achievement. Then we see um Enid celebrating

(12:51):
Seymour's birthday with him, and while this is happening, he
receives a call from the real striking blonde woman who
he had placed the ad about Dana. Yeah, Enid convinces
him to call her back and he meets her and
they turned out to not have anything in common, but
they start seeing each other anyway, to Enid's dismay. Now, meanwhile,

(13:14):
her art piece of the racist poster is put on
display at a student art show, but people are demanding
its removal. Enid isn't even there to defend herself because
she goes over to Seymours and she's like, hey, let's
hang out and he's like, I don't think it's a
good idea that we hang out anymore. And it's like, okay,
this is just occurring to him now, yes, and it's

(13:37):
like he's like, wait, hold on, I'm Steve BUSHEMI and
my best friend is seventeen. The optics of this are
not so good. Yes, another huge issue I take with this.
It's very bizarre ya. And then she's like, okay, fine,
I won't bother you anymore. And then Rebecca is like, hey,
you you clearly don't want to live with me anymore,

(13:57):
so fuck you. Enid also live loses out on her
scholarship opportunity for this art academy. Um. So this is
what we would call the low point of the film,
and she's sad. So she goes over to Seymour's again
and she's like, how come you never asked me out
when I was trying to find you a girlfriend? What
if I just move in with you? And he's like shrug,

(14:18):
and then they have sex, which I truly did not think.
What's gonna happen? What's gonna happen the movie. I didn't
think it was gonna happen, and then and then there
it is, and it happens, and I was like, okay.
And then Steve Bushemy pivots so many times. He's like,
we shouldn't hang out anymore because you're seventeen. He's like,

(14:40):
I thought about it. We should actually get married because
you're seventeen. I'm like, okayes yep. And then so Enend
seems to regret this decision to have sex with him
immediately and starts blowing him off and then decides to
move move in with Rebecca again. Meanwhile, Seymour finds out
from Rebecca about the prank that they played on him

(15:03):
at the beginning of the movie, and he thinks that
she is in love with Josh, their friend who shows
up every five minutes, so he so Seymour goes to
confront him, ends up in the hospital. Enid comes to
visit Seymour in the hospital and she apologizes and she's like, actually,
you're my hero. You're the coolest person I know. But

(15:24):
then Enid leaves. It seems like although she and Rebecca
have made up, there kind of lives are headed on
different paths. We see Seymour in therapy. He's talking about
his breakup with Enid, and then Enid gets on a
bus that is out of service and it might be
a metaphor for her dying. It's me, it's a metaphor,

(15:46):
the whole metaphor of us. Guy that you're like, all right,
this was a book first, Yes, metaphor bus equals it
was a book. So that's the story. Let's take a
quick break and then we will come right back to discuss.
One of the things that stood out to me about

(16:07):
this movie is was what you were saying earlier, Julie,
was that I thought that this movie was going to
be way more about Enid and Rebecca. But Scarlett Johansson
is actually not in this movie that much. Yeah, Rebecca
is not a very fleshed out character in the movie. Yeah,
I guess. I it's interesting because I wish that and

(16:29):
I'm assuming the books that there was more focus on
Rebecca because this movie, I mean, it's not really taking
this side of either one of them on their approach
to life, and I kind of appreciate that. It's like, Okay,
they are taking different paths, and that is neither a
good nor a bad thing, but but it is. It
is so like just I don't know, there's so much

(16:50):
about this movie that you're just like seventeen year olds
are so frustrating, where like Enid is constantly mad at
Rebecca like how dare you have a job for to support?
And I'm like, you fucking bratt. I just got so
frustrated with Enid every step of this movie because she's
I I she is very isolated by her own you know,

(17:13):
by her own mentality and by her own approach to life.
But then it's like there's so much like privilege tied
up in the ways that she's frustrating. Like she's mad
that her friend has to have a job to survive,
which is like, yeah, that's frustrating for everybody, but more
so the people doing it than their friends. And like

(17:33):
I don't know, yeah, I I we don't. I guess
I don't really know enough about Rebecca to really be
attached to her. But of the two, I was team Rebecca,
Team Rebecca, team grow up and get a life. Sure again,
like I see the value in this movie and that
there weren't that many thoughtful or subversive portrayals of team

(17:58):
girls in media at as time, and I think that's
why a lot of people latched on to it so much.
And again, I appreciate what it's doing. In many ways,
I relate to Enid and Rebecca like I was similar
to them in some ways when I was a teenager.
There are other ways in which I can't and don't

(18:19):
relate to them. But isn't that the way with characters
um For me, it's just like it's subversive as it
is the things that it tries to subvert. In many cases,
it mishandles. It's it's hard because it's I I was
thinking a little bit about when we and they're they're
extremely different movies, but I guess as an example of
when we talked about Carrie a couple of years ago,

(18:43):
where that is like the experience of a teen girl
in a very different genre, but it's told through the
lens of so many different people who did not and
could not possibly share the experience of a teen girl,
and it all kind of like it feels like there
are things that are true and relatable and like very
emotionally poignant about it, but then it kind of gets

(19:06):
lost because it's like, Okay, you know, a man originally
wrote this book and then a different man. They're both
you know, I'm sure emotionally sensitive and wonderful people, but
there's some stuff that just feels a little off and
rings a little hollow, and I think that part of
it can be attributed to that um where it's like
to Brandon Palmer is not a sensitive no. I I

(19:30):
just want to get that in there. But as far
as like Terry and Daniel go, they seem to be
like a well intentioned writing team that want to portray
these experiences honestly, but I just kind of wish that
they had like spoken to and and credited more women
in that process, and the whole work probably would have
been elevated if that were the case. The same thing

(19:51):
goes for the I think kind of big miss as
they make with the comments they try to make on
racist like, you know, it's just they are not qualified
to be making these statements, and I think that where
it does succeed is where they're trying to communicate how
clueless both Enid and Seymour are about racism, and how

(20:15):
they are saying a lot of things but clearly not
understanding them, to the point where Enid is literally trying
to like advance herself off of the work of other
people and off of the idea of racism without really
doing any critical thinking or introspection about it. And that
reads pretty clearly. But then what like, you have to

(20:35):
have a black person involved in the production, and you
have to have a black character otherwise you're just saying, like,
I don't understand racism here it is here, like I
don't know, it just doesn't. It just felt very strange
to me. I agree, I think to that. So the
comic book was written by Daniel Klou's He co wrote

(20:57):
the screenplay with Terry why Off, who directed the film.
So that those are those are people who are telling
this story. Um, I feel like this is another case
of like men observing women in the world and thinking,
I get it. I see how women be, so I'll
tell their story. And to me, we see a lot

(21:19):
of this, like, you know, these girls are not like
the other girls, which I want to clarify something about that, um,
because every time I teach my my screenwriting class, my
students are always like, I just want to make sure
my girl isn't like one of the girls who's not
like the other girls. And I'm like because I think
it can maybe be easily misinterpreted. Um, what we take
issue with is the idea that a woman will behave

(21:43):
a certain way because she does not want to be
perceived as being like other women, because other women equals bad,
because like femininity or womanhood or anything like that is
a negative thing, and they're trying to disassociate themselves with that.
That is what we mean by this when we comment
on this trope, And this is kind of what the

(22:04):
characters are doing, especially in how they view other female
characters in this movie. Because even though Enid and Rebecca
have a what feels like a strong relationship at first,
although it deteriorates over the course of the movie, there
are various other characters like a classmate of theirs named
Melaura who they who just seems to want to hang

(22:25):
out with them, and they're like, she's so awful. Enid
hates her like I guess former step mom, or like
a next girlfriend of her dad's who he starts dating again. Um,
we're not really sure why she hates her. Think the
way that the art teacher and the star art student
is also kind of telling to where it's like the

(22:46):
star art teacher is very I mean again, I'm just
like I think that it genuinely as Daniel Klaus grinding
some old acts that he has from high school. But
but it is it's like this uh woman who only
wants to see art about like a bore and vagina,
and the student who gets rewarded is a like I
think she's made out to be this overly serious artist

(23:09):
who only makes things about abortion and vagina and that
is rewarded, and so it's like, yeah, the way that
other women are characterized it is a little like you know,
en It and Rebecca are the outliers. What I do
appreciate is that in It and Rebecca are clearly flawed,
and it's made clear to the audience that their way
of life is not sustainable or like quote unquote right,

(23:33):
but it is given the most focus. I think, like
kind of piggybacking off of that, the way that feminism
is represented in the movie is made to seem like
foolish and like that feminists are ridiculous because like the
art that this student is making that the teacher is
really praising is like feminist art that's pro choice and

(23:56):
that's you know about there. Let me find the quote
here something about a shocking image of repressed femininity. And
then there's also this moment where Rebecca they're looking for
apartments in like the in the newspaper, and she's like, oh,
here's one. Oh wait a minute, you'd have to live
with a feminist and her two cats. Um. So it's

(24:18):
again it's like, I it's a weird because it's like
I understand what they're critiquing, and it is kind of
funny in moments where it's like I feel like the
art teacher character and the star art student are critiquing
like the overly serious art world of like here's a
cup and it symbolizes this serious issue, and I get
that that is silly and like it is funny to

(24:40):
poke fun at that mentality, but it does seem to
but the the again, it's it's similar to the fact
that they choose race as a topic to make this
critique they're not qualified to make. It doesn't quite read
very well for like two straight male artists in collaboration
to be like we're gonna poke fun at feminist art specifically,

(25:02):
like why why is that the art they specifically choose
to pick on. There's so much overly serious art that
you could, you know, choose and tell a more effective joke.
I don't know, yeah for sure. Um well, Julie curious
because so far we've only heavily criticized the movie. What

(25:22):
was it that drew you to this movie, into this
story and these characters? Like why I was exactly liking
it in high school. I've never seen a character that's
more represented exactly who I was at that age, at
that point in my life, and I find it to
be such a true representation of what it's like when
the person that you fit in with because you're on

(25:44):
the outskirts of everything is no longer someone that you
can connect to, and how completely rootless that is, and
during those transitional moments like the summer between high school
and college being lost and then everyone else seemingly, you know,
just falling into place and not feeling like you have
anywhere to go, and your sexuality is like overwhelming, you know.

(26:09):
She talks about like being so horny and hating everyone
at the same time, which I think is such a
like a perfect encapsulation of that particular age where're like,
fuck you, get away from me, but also fuck me
because I'm desperate to connect um that she that she
looks forward in other places, such as like connecting with
Seymour and you know, trying to trying to you know,

(26:30):
trying to do things with her, with her art and
her work and her sketch book. But at the end,
she doesn't fit in anywhere. She doesn't fit into the
art world. Uh. The Seymour thing, she realizes was like misguided,
and she feels gross about she can't go home anymore
because Maxine is back and she has a you know,
kind of a strange relationship with her, sort of semi

(26:50):
cuckold did father to begin with, and we don't know
what her history was with Maxine, but it was ugly.
We don't know where a real mom is. And then
she just stopped connecting to Rebecca. And I've been in
friendships like that where you have this best girlfriend and
it's you against the world, and then one day things
are just different and she wants to like pick tumblers

(27:10):
at Crate and Barrel and you're like, I am not
on board. We we used to like we used to
sit at diners and make fun of everything together. And
there's such these like there's these like beautiful little hat
tips to you know, the times that they've spent They
spent so much time together in high school and all
of the things that they've been through, And one of
them is when Enid is doing that like little tag

(27:31):
sail in her front yard and Rebecca is like, oh,
I remember this. This is from your little old lady phase.
And of course Enid like had a phase where she
was dressing like a little old lady and of course
Rebecca was there for it. Rebecca has definitely always been
like the sort of beit a friend. Uh, And it
is definitely the more colorful of the two. It's definitely
Enid's story that Rebecca's sort of always been like writing

(27:54):
sidecar on at a certain point, like they stopped connecting
or Rebecca realizes that she wants to drive the car,
and Enid suddenly fits nowhere and she uh, she fulfills
her fantasy of getting on a bus out of town
and disappearing because she doesn't know where else to go
or what else to do. Yeah, And I think those

(28:14):
are effective themes to explore in terms of like identity
and where do I belong and who am I? And
who do I want to be now that I'm freshly
an adult? And like watching watching them fuck it up,
and like, you know, you're not ready to be an
adult because she can't get rid of she can't get
rid of that toy and the and the whole tag sail.
She's got ready, she's not ready to move on, but

(28:35):
she doesn't want to go back either. Yeah, and I think,
I mean, well, here's where the quiz comes in, because
I imagine that this is you hinted at this, but
I imagine this is what more the comic books are,
like a focus on the friendship between Enid and Rebecca.
To me, a more interesting movie would have been an
exploration of that kind of deteriorating friendship. And and you know,

(28:58):
as you grow up, you grow apart, and you you
discover your interests and your priorities and if they don't
align with the person you thought was your best friend,
like how do you reconcile that? And so sad And
there's like the last panel and that I mean, you're well,
first of all, you're gonna love the book because the
book's just like all that and her just sort of
seeing Rebecca having moved on and saying, like, you've become

(29:20):
such a beautiful young woman, and it is heartbreaking, like
to watch a friendship dissolved like that. Um, it's just
so specific. That is not what the movie is. And
I do think that a lot of that has to
do with casting. I think Scarlett your Hands is incredibly talented.
I don't think that she really breathed that much life
into this particular character, and so much of that is

(29:40):
how it's written and directed, obviously, But you get Steve
Boo semi attached, You're gonna want to hang out with
Steve Boo semi And also the chemistry between the two
of them and that relationship being as weird as it was.
And also I'm coming from a background where I've had
relationships like that, where I was very precocious and I
was hanging out with older men that were really interesting
to me, even though they were nerds and weird and

(30:01):
didn't fit in. And they were like, why are you
interested in me? You're so young, and I was like,
I don't really know. I just I'm looking for a
friend at this point in my life because I'm I'm
just trying to figure out where it belongs. I don't
feel like I belong anywhere. And part of it is
tied up in sexuality. But another part of it is
just because you're reconciling something that's that's gone even though
you need it so badly, and it's like the breakup
of your best friend and taking these leaps that you're

(30:23):
just not ready to take. UM. So the movie, like
I said, it's completely different. Um, I love both of them,
but everything I think. I think a lot of what
you're describing can be like met with the comic book.
It makes me want to check out the because I
do have like more interest in their friendship than I

(30:43):
really do. I mean, even though it's like I I
totally like understand the dynamic that like exists between Enid
and Seymour, and it's like if you haven't had a
friendship like that yourself, you know someone who has, and
it's very complicated and bizarre and worth exploring. But it's
just the way it takes over this story. And when

(31:04):
I was doing some research on the production, I guess
that the way that the writing was split up was
that Daniel Klaus's focused on writing the friendship portions, and
then Terry's Wigoff focused on end and Seymour because Seymour
was kind of an avatar for him. Where like every
record that Seymour has is Terry's Wygofs record, and like

(31:26):
he designed Seymour space because it was kind of a
projection of himself. Yeah, No, Terry's Wygoff is not like
putting himself out there being like I can tell other
people's stories. Like he literally holds up a copy of
Terry's Wygoffs band the Cheap Suit serendads is that one
any good? And He's like, no, it's a hilarious joke.
But you know, he's very it's very clear like who

(31:47):
he is and what he's connected to. But I didn't
I don't know anything about splitting up the script. That's
new to me. Yeah, that's uh So the production as
I was able to find was I mean, obviously the
collaborated on the final product, and it wasn't like this
scene was written by Daniel. This scene was written by Terry.
But as far as like developing the story, those were
kind of where their focuses lied where I mean, like

(32:09):
it sounds like Daniel Claus was kind of continuing to
develop the book portion and then Terry's wage off was
um expanding on subplot that kind of ends up taking
up the bulk of the movie and I do. I mean,
I think their friendship is really complicated, and I what
what I some things that like resonated with me that

(32:29):
I like are are in there, and I kind of
wish were explored a little more. Were like they Rebecca
and Nina had have this really really close friendship, but
you still see those like little resentments that pop up
in a friendship that close, where there are certain moments
where like Rebecca is being flirted with by someone and
Enid gets kind of annoyed and like it's like funk this,

(32:51):
Like I'm I'm I'm not here for this, and like
there there's some tension that exists between them. With brad
Renfro's character, like there's little moments where it felt very
authentic to like a teen friendship where you're like I
love you and you're my entire life, but like fuck
this and like you right now right for like this moment,

(33:11):
I'm so pit Like that stuff is great, and I
feel like there's there's kind of a tendency sometimes too
um flatten out friendships like that and be like girl
friendships are perfect, they have no flaws there. Blah blah
blah blah, blah, which is obviously not true, and it
was cool to see that represented and to see the
like way you grow apart from people and this like

(33:33):
really painful, confusing way showed. Yeah. I guess I just
like I. I guess I just need to read the
book because that was what I was more interested in. Yeah,
because instead the movie focuses on The movie quickly shifts
focus to the relationship between Enid and Seymour, which, um,
let's take a quick break and then we'll come back

(33:55):
to discuss it and we're back. Uh, should we just
jump into the Steve Bushey staff yes section of the podcast. Yes.
Someone pointed this out to us on I figure was

(34:16):
Twitter that, um so, Julie. We used this metric that
I made up called the bush Emmy test, which is
basically just, uh, if you sub in a like traditionally
Honky guy with Steve bush Emmy, is the interaction normal
or is it way creepier? For example, in the Notebook Yes,
when Ryan Gosling is heavily pursuing Rachel McAdams and basically

(34:41):
threatening to kill himself on a ferris wheel unless she
goes out with him, sub in Steve Bushemy and if
and if suddenly it's creepy and someone pointed out to it,
they're like, I think that Ghost World fails this very
Steve Bushey related test, and um, I'm in client to
agree this movie. What do you mean, how does it

(35:03):
fail that? Well? I think that Steve Bushemy in this
movie is playing a kind of creepy character at times,
and that it it yes, reads that way. I don't know,
I think that, yeah. I mean for me, I don't
know about everybody else. I take a lot of issue
with this relationship between Enid and um Steve Bush absolutely.

(35:25):
I mean, look, the last scene is the most humiliating,
uh retribution that he's like his mother's picking him up
from therapy and like she's asking him what he wants
for dinner and rolling his eyes and they shut the door.
That's humiliating. That character gets come up and said, I frankly, like,
I I love Seymour and I love boussemmys Seymour. I'm

(35:47):
not saying that like it's okay to like, you know,
be him and and you know have had sex with Enid.
But I also like, I don't think he's a I
don't I don't think he's like a villain by any stretch.
But I also don't think that the but the movie
doesn't dodge him being creepy. I think it's like very
very open about that. Yeah, I guess I I get
kind of I get kind of lost in how the

(36:08):
movie where the movie is trying to have you land
on that, because there are moments where it's obviously like
Enid fux with a lot of people and manipulates a
lot of people and makes a ton of mistakes, and
Seymour is very affected by these manipulative choices she's making.
But I did feel like the fault fell pretty heavily

(36:30):
on her of like how dare you be so like
manipulative towards this sad man as as if like Steve
Bushemy is not, you know whatever, forty five years old
in this and can't wait. So you think the movie
is like cutting him a break for what he's doing.
I think a little bit to me as well. Yeah,
I mean I think he's definitely like a sympathetic character.

(36:53):
Like I think that. I think that like, as an
audience member, you're definitely like falling in love with Seymour.
But that's that in my opinion, because I think this
is enid story, and she's the protagonist and she's the
person that you're meant to align with. So when she's
falling in love with Seymour, you're kind of falling in
love with Seymour and then you fuck him in the
next day, you're like, what the fund did I do?
And then you realize, like, oh my god, he is

(37:14):
so much older and he doesn't have like the same
frame of reference to me that like sex could be
something that's like something that is meaningful, and he takes
it the wrong way and he gets obsessed, which happened,
and that just was like, what did I fucked up? Um?
From her point of view, just knowing that, like he's
a mess and she's she's like I should have known
that the whole time. But I don't think she's like
I don't think it's saying that she's doing anything wrong

(37:37):
and that he's like an innocent, vulnerable person necessarily. I
guess for me, it's not made clear enough one way
or the other. My whole thing is the age gap here.
She is presumably eighteen because she's just graduated, although some
people are still seventeen when they graduate high school. I
like turned seventeen or I turned eighteen on the day
that I graduated. So like, either she's barely out of

(38:01):
high school, her emotional brain is still developing, and then
she's befriending this man who is that's all her decisions,
she's she's a leader of that. That's her choice. Yes,
but I think that if if you're a forty something,
you're old man and an eighteen year old young woman
is trying to befriend you and initiates sex with you,

(38:22):
you got to run the other way. Well, she she
finally and she finally does at the very end she does,
but mostly they're just friends and it's like a little
even so like I don't know, I think I feel
like it is kind of on And I guess that
part of where I really started to like Seymour started
to lose me was when you see his friends as well,
and you're like, oh, this is just a creepy group,

(38:44):
like this is but he's better than those guys. When
that when that do yes, because when that that scene
with his neighbor who like farted and he was like
thanks for the talk. Uh yeah, No, I think you're
setting I think you're setting him up to see like
he's from this world and there's a lot of people
around him that can suck. But like, I think, with
the right like people around him, he could be, as

(39:05):
you say, like different from the others. I don't know,
I think when you're a forty year old man, and
even though like she's arguably cooler than him, and like,
it's not absolutely right. And it's not as though he
has like fame or clout that he's exploiting to sleep
with her. But to me, like with an age gap
like that, And it's not even the concept of an

(39:27):
age gap that I take issue with, Like if he
were fifty and she were, I would notice, but I
wouldn't think much of it. It's the fact that she
is a teenager and her emotional maturity still needs at
least a few years of development. Like even just looking

(39:48):
at the way she meets Seymour, she plays this really
childish and immature prank on him, like that's how they meet,
and then like yeah, just overall with their current ages
and that situation, there's an imbalance in that dynamic. There's
a certain power that comes wouldn't agree more. I think
that I think the film is totally acknowledges that I yeah,

(40:12):
I mean, and like the fact that they don't end
up together is is better not together. He's he's punished,
she gets on a death bus maybe who knows what.
She's not dead, she's not dead. Sheaves town. Yeah, she's disappearing. Yeah,
I just, I really, I guess. I just I feel

(40:33):
as though the movie doesn't challenge this relationship enough. I
think that. And I think that of the reason that
that may be is because the character that like we're
talking about is a standard for the person making the movie.
So that maybe one of the reasons that I think
that Unit is the protagonist. I think that the creators
aligned with enit for sure. I mean, and it's definitely

(40:54):
the protagonist. Even so it's I don't know, I still
feel like, I mean, even though Unit is the protagony this,
I just the amount of sympathy that the movie dishes
out for Seymour was like, but you don't like Seymour
at all? I do? I do. The thing is like,
I don't dislike Seymour. I I appreciate the way he's painted.

(41:15):
I appreciate that it's made clear that he is an
insecure guy. He feels like he's at a dead end
in life. He doesn't have a lot of like trying
to fuck her, like he like that's I think he's
just like, okay, you're like my friend now, but what
the hell would she like? It doesn't even occur to him,
like what would you even want with me? I guess
that just wasn't my reader it. I I believe that

(41:36):
they are friends and they have a connection that is
not explicitly sexual. But I do feel like, like Caitlin,
like you were saying that it's like him as someone
who's you know whatever two and a half times or age,
it's on him to make a clear to not be
friends with her, Yeah, to not engage it. So he
shouldn't have been friends with her, really, I think so,

(41:59):
all right, he's been working at Cook's Chicken for longer
than she's been alive, Like yeah, but they have something
in common and they're both incredibly lonely. I don't know.
I mean, I've had friendships with people that were much
older than me at that age, and I didn't feel
like they were sexually predatory. I felt like I was

(42:20):
so desperate for connection that I was and and this
is before the internet. I was looking for people that,
like I could talk to about anything because I just
hated everyone so much and the people around me just
couldn't connect to um, and I wanted to find some
version of someone that maybe I could one day be.
I mean, I don't have an issue with them being
friends per se, Like I I think that, but where

(42:40):
the story lands, Like That's why I was so frustrated
when he does say, Okay, let's have sex. Let's do this,
because he never really like he resists the whole time,
like he's like everything she does that's sexual embarrasses him,
like putting on the mask and that like X rated,
like video shop and like. But then he still has
sex with her and says he'll drop everything to you know,

(43:02):
marry her. So it's like that's because he loses his mind,
that he loses his mind. So she comes over and
she's like, have sex with me, and then the next
morning he like loses his mind. Because I also get
the sense that Seymour hasn't had sex for like thirty years.
Well I just I yeah, I guess that if it
was explicitly like a friendship between an older person and

(43:24):
a younger person, that you there wasn't a trace of
sex to be found. I mean, I'm not saying that
older people can't be friends with younger people, like I've
had older friends when I was a teenager to like,
that's all good, right, But but the fact that you know,
for a lot of the movie, I was like, what
is this friendship? And I was trying to figure out
what is this friendship? And then where it goes, I

(43:46):
feel like speaks to the fact that there was something
vaguely sexual about it the whole time, because that's how
it pays off. And then all of a sudden he's
going to drop everything to stay. He loses his mind.
He but he loses his mind. He pays the price
for it, for sure. I do. Yeah, But Jamie, I
think you're like there's always some like sexual undercurrent with

(44:07):
just with the fact that she's like, I'm gonna help
you find a girlfriend. Yeah, bring me to this sex shop.
No one is, like I wanted to go forever and
no one's been able to take me. Which does that
imply that she's not old enough to go into a
sex shop, Like, I don't know, when you were a teenager,
didn't you want to go into those sex shops and
be like, oh my god, I can't believe this dildo
and like laugh about it with your friend. Yeah, well

(44:30):
that's kind of why. Again, I was like, oh, I
wish that there was more Enid and Rebecca because Rebecca
is so frustrated when like Rebecca's like, wait, you went
without me, and it's like, yeah, well I used to
try to do that ship together. Yeah, and they're not connecting. Yeah,
that's something that I totally did with my friends and
like totally but it's like Steve, you know, it's a
it's on. It's again. It's like Seymour is the adult

(44:52):
in this situation and he doesn't have to be the
guy that's like, oh no, this is so awkward for me,
but I guess I'll go in. It's like he has
to be the one to draw the boundary, I guess,
and he doesn't have the ability to do it. I understand.
I've seen like uh and that this is not an excuse,
but like I've seen so much worse. But like it's
the power. The power balance between the two of them

(45:13):
is way more fluid than it is in something like Manhattan. Sure,
and she's definitely like the higher status partner the whole time,
and I do and I and I don't want to
sound like shitty, but like she I think she definitely
comes over and like kisses him, like I'm not gonna
say like seduces him as much as she decides when
she goes over there, I'm going to kiss him. I'm

(45:35):
going to like, I want to make out with Seymour.
That's to me. There's no question that she shows up
and that's where she is at. And I don't think
he would have ever initiated that with her. I really
don't sure she does. UM initiate basically every aspect of
their relationship. Um. Even so, just the whole the the imbalance,

(45:57):
even though it's not necessarily that exploitative, arguably on his
and there's still a just you know, the experience and
the wisdom and the perceptions you gain along the way
of being older. And he has that and she doesn't.
And there's no substitute. She can't read a book or
you know, listen to a record and then suddenly be
wiser like she had like she he has. They hadn't fucked.

(46:20):
Would you be fine with it? I would be better
with it, um. But the fact that they end up
having sex. It's like just Enid not knowing that it's
a bad idea to pursue this man as a potential
romantic partner that's like twenty plus years older than her
when she is again just freshly graduated from high school.

(46:43):
Like that is proof that she doesn't have the wisdom
and experience and emotional maturity that she would need to
be his equal. And why doesn't seemore think it's a
bad idea to be hanging out with a teenager well
lonely and wants to feel cool and all this stuff. Well,
and she's also very persistent, like it's very clear that

(47:04):
she won't leave him alone. But I don't know when
anytime she was like take me to the sex shop.
Let's girlfriend, Let's get you a girlfriend, Let's get you.
And he should have been like this is inappropriate. We
need to draw a boundary here, and the fact that
it just Seymour should have also drawn that boundary, like
before he moved in with his mom again, Like I
mean I did, I did. Like that they show at

(47:24):
the end that he like realizes that you know, he
had cross the line, he had reached this low point
and at least responds to that by being like, I
have to get help, I need to make changes in
my life like that. Yeah, that never happens in movies.
And seeing a man in therapy and a movie is incredible,
Like you don't see it a lot. Yeah, but that
stuff with the mom and the therapist is really mean,

(47:46):
Like I think it's really cruel. I don't know. I
mean she's just there to like pick him up from
this therapy appointment, and maybe she has some boundary issues,
but like I didn't that none of that struck me
as like being that cruel. I guess Rebecca is the
only person in the movie that doesn't have boundary issues.
She's she's very clear with her boundaries, even with Enid,
where she's just like are we doing this or are

(48:08):
we not? And like stop being a flake. And if
you're going to keep being a flake, I can't be
in this friendship anymore. Right, Yeah, she's a grown up
in that way. She's Yeah, she's I mean, I guess
we don't really know that much about her life and
we don't really know like what the reasons may be
for why she is growing up and maturing very differently
than her friend. Um, but she's she's the only person

(48:31):
in the movie with boundaries. I don't know. Yeah, that
that friendship felt very I mean, it's definitely strange and
that you know, not none of us are calling that
into question. I just feel like Steve Bushemi's character is
lent even though he doesn't have a happy ending per se.
I feel like, because I don't know that, the amount
of sympathy that the movie extended to him, I thought was, uh, strange.

(48:58):
Everyone has an unhappy ending, scept maybe Rebecca. We don't
really know. Yeah, she goes and buy, she goes to Ikea,
she buys her plastic cups. She she's working at Starbucks,
which brings me to, you know, just a few things
that we have to call out in terms of language
that gets used, comments that get made that are super reductive.

(49:18):
I mean, the the R word gets said several times
throughout the movie. Very two thousand one, Very two thousand one.
You've got your Rebecca saying that a man in the
wheelchair doesn't even need that wheel chair, that he's totally
just lazy, you know, like making accusations like that. There's
some weird there's like a yeah, they're definitely not the

(49:44):
so just you know, very of the time. I mean,
who was a woke team in two thousand one? Yeah? Uh?
Does anyone have any other final thoughts? Um? I want
you guys to ask me more questions because I think
I've such a different like notion of this, but I
don't know where to do it. Um, you know what
I mean? Well, what are your thoughts on it? Like,

(50:07):
what are your feelings? I love it. I think it's
an amazing movie. Like I relate to it so powerfully
as a as a human woman. Like I think that
like Enid is like one of the best characters of
all time. I've like, there have been so few times
when I've seen myself on screen the way that I

(50:27):
see myself with Enid. And I remember, like even my
mom when that came out, was like, oh my god,
like that was what you were coming from, Like there
was just something. So I just I think that Enid
is such a three dimensional character. I think her, like
I totally get her all the stuff that you were
saying about them not being woke, Like that's her trying
to figure out what funny is and like trying to

(50:48):
be shocking and like and then and then like you know,
kind of pressing the boundaries of it. And then she
meets with that like Pat Healy character who's like in
the subculture, but he's a piece of ship because he's
got all those ti Semitic jokes, and she's like, oh wait, no,
funk that guy. That guy sucks. I'm not that guy.
And she's kind of like dipping her toe into different subcultures.
And in my that and my that, they live in

(51:09):
the suburbs, they live in hell. You know. They like
they decide like one day to like follow the Satanist
couple and like that's a day um or or just
like you know that they're wat they're googn on that
stand up comedian and they're like, instead of like that's
a loser, they're like, we should marry him. Like they're like,
he sucks. I want to fuck him. That that ship.
There's so much specificity to that that I've never seen before.

(51:34):
And um, it's just like I just think it speaks
so uh. It's like as clear as a bell to
like mentally, where you are when you are stuck and
you are trapped and your best you and your best
friend are going through ship and you don't know what
to do I just I've just never seen a character
like that that I've connected with on that level, especially

(51:56):
because so many teen movies of that era, especially like
the late nineties, but even into the you know, early
and mid two thousand's, they were these stories that are
usually about like a teen girl having some kind of
like sex bet against her or a prom like oh,
I bet you can't turn this girl into a prom queen,

(52:18):
or you know, some other horribly manipulative thing that often
would strip any agency away from the female character the
teen girls. So the fact that this story does give
these characters a lot of agency, does explore their interior
lives more than a lot of other teen movies were doing.
And this movie, these characters subvert some of that stuff. Yeah.

(52:40):
I like that they're they're like given given the space
and like agency to like make mistakes, which they do constantly,
which is what teenagers do constantly. I like that, like
one of them has to get a job. You never
see that in a teen movie, where usually it's just
like yeah, there. It's it's a lot easier to put
a teen movie in an affluent neighborhood so that the
plot can just happen and no one has to go

(53:02):
do something to survive. Like, there are aspects of this
movie that I'm like, you know, it's it's way more
than you're getting from teen movies at this time, specifically,
and as I think a bigger it's bigger than a
teen movie. The blues hammer scene is super funny that
I liked that. Yeah, sure, I just mean like teen
movies and it revolves around teenagers. And I was just

(53:23):
gonna say also that, like I think it subverts the
Bechtel stuff because when Seymour is like, oh, she's in
love with Josh, it's like ENA's head could not be
further away from Josh. Like even the even the fact
that like Rebecca may or may not be like dating,
it doesn't matter. Like ENA's not thinking about Josh En.
It's thinking about like what the fund is she gonna do?

(53:44):
Who the fund is? She doesn't have her art scholarship.
She like doesn't know, you know, where her place in
the world is. She has one friend that it's Seymour.
She's like she talks about being horny as hell and
like not knowing where to put it, and she wants
to make this like mistake and then she doesn't know
what else to do. But the in other words, the

(54:04):
idea that like those two were you know, and you
mentioned before about the two of them talking about josh En.
It's not jealous because Rebecca's hanging out with josh En.
It's jealous of Josh like she wants to hang out
with Rebecca. Seymour is obviously more important. And I love
that line when Rebecca is just like, I'm so sick
of Seymour because he is getting in the way and
she is seeing her friend disappear. But also like I

(54:26):
feel like en has always been like that and Rebecca
has changed, but that's because the movie aligns you with
Enid to see from Enid's point of view, that's like,
oh you've changed, you both changed, but the situation has changed.
And to have to figure out what to do with
that when the world is like hell and you're trying
to choose between like oh, like there's this like weird

(54:48):
old guy and I do there's so many things in
that where they're just like so beautifully stated, where he's
like do you like him? Is he a nerds? Like? Well,
he is sort of like the exact opposite of everything
I hate, you know, just his like I do hate Sports,
and then him in traffic I have some more kids,
why don't you. Yeah, I don't know, like I've just
I've never I've never really like seen myself quite so

(55:11):
vividly on screen as I have in this, especially like
from that I guess point in my life. Yeah. I
also like the kind of there's almost this idea of
like the inevitability of selling out is something, at least
for some of the characters, where like, you know, we
have yeah growing up, right, growing up means to sell
out because you have to have a job to support yourself. Yeah.

(55:34):
But like there's that one character who she's i think
buying VHS tapes from or something, and he's really awful
to her, and then he says something like, oh, you
want to like take down society, go to business school
and you know, work with a job at a corporation
and take them down from the inside. That's what I'm

(55:54):
gonna do. And like that's like that mentality of just
like no, no, no, participate in capitalism to the fullest extent,
and that's how we're going to get rid of it.
Oh Yeah, it's just like so many different shades of
nightmare around her, Like you could be this nightmare person,
you could be this horror show. So yeah, I don't.

(56:15):
I mean, I guess, I'm so I like that, I'm
I guess I kind of appreciate that I'm conflicted about
certain aspects of of Enid and of Rebecca because it's
like I respect the hell out of Enid's like commitment
to being like I'm not going to participate in all
of this bullshit, and also that the movie pretty clearly

(56:36):
illustrates like, well, then you're just going to be pretty
lost if you're if you're not willing to have a job,
if you're not willing to put in an effort, and
if your disillusion with everything, you're left with very few
options of how to live your left fucked, you're broken,
You're you're alone, and you're also funcked if you do participate,
which is what we see through Rebecca of like she's

(56:56):
playing the game, but she's not totally happy. Well, I
don't know if she's fucked as much as he's just
kind of grown up in a specific way that A
it hasn't you know, that's where she's like, you've changed.
It's it's just that Rebecca can like move forward and
needed can in that particular way. She's a different kind
of person. They're just different kinds of people. They met
each other's needs for the time that they were together,

(57:17):
but it's time to move on, and it's just heartbreaking.
It's heartbreaking, and I just again, I just wish that
the story was more about their characters and their friends
who love the book. Yeah, so exciting. I'm serious, I'm serious.
It is one of my favorite I I just love
these characters so much. I love the book, I love
the movie, and thora Birch is so great. She's awesome,

(57:37):
she's amazing, and she's a teenager playing a teenager, which
never happened. Then, Like, there is not a shred of
inauthenticity to anything she does in that movie, even just
the way she carries her body, the way she like
tries to figure out, like this my look now, like
the green hair, and then someone insults her for the

(57:58):
green hair, so then she does I And those moments too,
were her whole, like her whole thing that she'll tell
you is like I don't care about fitting in like
funck this blah blah blah, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you.
But then she is very insecure and very sensitive because teenage, like,
it's like she's she doesn't know who she is. She
wants to be accepted somewhere, but if there is pushbacks

(58:20):
on trying, Yeah, she's absolutely trying to find a soul
mate because she lost so much with Rebecca and Seymour
is the closest thing. But it can't work. Can't work,
can't work, doesn't work, can't work. So I was interested
in because this is like such a cult classic of like,
were there any other endings? Was their studio interference? What

(58:41):
was the whole situation there? And there was a fair amount.
So part of what I found out is that, yes,
why Goff was focused on developing the Seymour and Enid
storyline where Cloud's focused on the Enid and Rebecca storylined.
But I also found out a lot. I guess part
of the reason that ends up not being in the
final script as much is because uh Thora Birch was

(59:05):
I guess legally an adult when they were shooting it,
and Scarlett Johansen was only fifteen, so she's only fifteen
when this movie is shot, so she, like WHOA, couldn't
physically be there as much, so they had to plan
around the fact, like I guess her storyline got pared
down partially just logistically, like kids can only be on
set for a certain amount of time of day. So

(59:27):
that's wild that they would cast an even younger because
normally they're casting, you know, twenty nine year olds to
play eighteen year olds. That's wild that they cast someone
a few years younger than the character's age. Okay, um.
And in one version of the ending, Zwagov had Seymour
died by suicide at the end of the movie, but
that got written out as well, and then the studio

(59:50):
This one made me laugh that that was like, there
has to be a ridiculous studio suggestion, And the studio
suggestion was that the movie ends in a double wedding
where Enid Mary Seymour and Rebecca Mary's Josh, which I
think was pitch. That was a studio pitch, and then
they were just like absolutely not, which good Chris. Yeah,

(01:00:12):
So that did make me appreciate at least that, like,
I mean, this was not an easy movie to make.
It took a long time to get produced, and no
one ends happy, which is obviously, like I mean, a
really unusual thing to be able to get past a
studio Anyways, it's like all these people are deeply flawed
and kind of sunk in a lot of ways, and
no one ends up particularly happy, which is just, you know,

(01:00:35):
uncomfortably close to what real life is like. Um so
I appreciate that. And the double wedding ending suggestion is
very funny to me, because what what a typical studio note?
What right now? They're like, what if they all just
got married at the end. There's a studio ever known
what's good for a story, or ever known what an
audience actually wants. Like I feel like, Noah, I don't know.

(01:00:59):
I want to mention that I disagree with you about
the ROBERTA the Art Teacher character. Um I think that
like as a comic actress, like that's like Mana from Heaven,
like Ileana Douglas had so much to do. That character
is so funny when she shows that short film Mirror Father,

(01:01:20):
and then at the end, if you watch the credits,
like her parents are like the producers and like it
keeps repeating like her last name. It's like special thanks
to like produced, and it's like so clear that like
her parents funded it and she's not just like they're
not just taking pot shots at the Tampa and a
teacup thing, like they make fun of that that guy

(01:01:40):
like with the who had the like clearly like serial killer.
That's like and then it's like and there's that scene
that ends with like I know that this is Philips
or whatever it is short, So like, yeah, there's definitely
like a lot of comedy and like those art school
scenes that I think are like beyond you know, just
like goofing on feminist. Sure, a lot of basically all

(01:02:02):
the art gets made fun of. Um also just shout
out to mirror father mir which I'm sure is a
feminist text um over. Sure. Yeah, I mean that's that
those I mean those points about like rich art kid
nepotism ship, Like I love that ship. That's like I
wish they was it was more focused on that. And
Aleana Douglas does an amazing job in that role. I

(01:02:24):
don't know, there's just some certain points of it. I'm
just like why you know why that aspect um? Well,
that brings us to a conversation with a friend of
the cast past guest on our Space Jam episode brilliant writer,
all around terrific person, Princess Weeks. Hello, Hi guys, Hi guys,

(01:02:48):
thank you for having me on again. Welcome backs. So
we wanted to hear your thoughts kind of just general
thoughts overall about the movie, but to start just kind
of focusing specifically on how you felt the movie handled
race so terribly. Um, I just I found it was

(01:03:12):
so weird because I literally wrote in my notes the
coon's chicken thing is weird af because it feels so
arbitrarily put in there to just give sort of like
a third act conflict to the story, and not something
that felt very organically put in, especially because the cast
itself is so white that it's like there is no

(01:03:34):
black opinion except for that one girl who's like it's
not cool, you know, at and during the during the
art presentation, and it just feels so ignorant. And there's
a larger conversation that could be had about that, because
I know, just recently we had a conversation about like
Aunt Jemima. I know, like in Lovecraft Country, which is
airing right now. Even in the first episode, you see

(01:03:55):
the Aunt Jemima poster in just the position to a
bunch of like white it's mocking black people. So there
is like a very big history of like racist character
ritures in the way that that you know, um, the
United States, Canada, UK have done food products, but like,

(01:04:15):
Eden is not a character who who cares about that
kind of stuff exactly. She's not even like a Daria type,
because I know people have compared like this to Daria,
but Daria would actually care. Daria would at least she
would read she has the pretensive care she's like, or
would at least act Jody to be like, Hey, Jody,
do you want to like tag team on this. This
just seems like Ena trying to get out of doing

(01:04:36):
a project, which is weird because she already is an artist,
so I don't really know why she needs to like
literally be like I found this art and put it
in an art show. It's it's so arbitrary, it's so weird,
it's clumsy, and it only serves to put Steve Bushmi's
character Seymour and Eat it in a position of conflict

(01:04:59):
for like five minutes. It's really useless. Yeah, because it's
like you said, Enid is this white woman who, as
far as we know, doesn't seem to care about racial
injustice or racism. She just finds this image and she's like, oh,
this will actually help me get a leg up in

(01:05:19):
my art class because she basically brings it in because
her teacher has been saying you need to be more
provocative and political with your art, and she's like, oh,
well that this might do that. And she goes like
full like Richard Prince and she's like, you didn't do anything.
This is someone else's work. But does it make you
feel like it's just And it's so weird because it's

(01:05:40):
like they established her getting called, you know, anti semitic slurs,
so it's like, why wouldn't that connect to it or
why wouldn't she have anything else to pull from it? Yeah,
because it feels like she brings it in just to
like show up that other girl in her class who's
been bringing in all that provocative art. And it's just
like so you're just just like no real conversation, like

(01:06:02):
no it. I guess watching certain scenes back, you're just like,
I does the movie think. She's like it seems like
the movie generally comes down on her side of like, yeah,
you know what, this was a cool thing to have done,
and the art because the art teacher has already been
set up as like this cartoon and has already been

(01:06:23):
set up. It's like, this is not someone you need
to take seriously her approval, and like, I don't, I
don't know. It's just it it's such a mess in
the way that it's presented, and Princess, like you were saying,
there's no there's no black character in this movie. Who
isn't an unnamed student or an unnamed parent to like
provide any sort of comment on this that would be relevant.

(01:06:47):
Like it's just so bizarre. I don't know. Sometimes you
watch a movie and you're like, this is two thousand's
and like, you know, I was like, oh, first four
minutes we getting our word, we get some casual able
ism and how we frame rings, you know, Like just
I feel like I feel like it's just so hard
because she's always saying these weird homophobic things, like when
she's like, oh, yeah, we're gonna have to get checked

(01:07:09):
for AIDS after he this girl gets date raped, and
just like what is this for? And it feels so
of that era, you know what. This This movie made
me think of two movies that I felt like, Book
Smart and Jennifer's Body, because book Smart, I think is
very much like the like great, great, great grand aunt
of like like you know, the centate of this kind

(01:07:30):
of film because it's like two women who are like
not popular but still interact. But I think book smart
again because it's you know, written by women, I believe
directed by a woman. It's like you get more of
this intimacy of like a friendship. Like when it comes
down to it, eat, it spends more time with Steve
Bushemy than she does with Rebecca, so I really have
no context for why they're friends. Besides, they're both just

(01:07:52):
mean and that doesn't that's not a personality. And it's
like with Jennifer's body, you know it again written direct
by women. Not a perfect film in terms of like
the dialogue. All the dialogue is very dated, but you
get like a very intimate look at the friendship and
tension between these two girls going into these different transitions
in their life. Like there's just they're just not enough

(01:08:13):
time spent with these two young girls transitioning to this
new phase of life for me to feel like this
is like really about them. Like I did not realize
how much Steve buy was going to be in this
movie because like all you ever see is like Scarlet
Johansson and Enid, and I'm just like, but it's not
about them, And I found that to be really disappointing. Yeah, yeah,

(01:08:35):
I was. I was curious about your feelings on that
friendship too, because we have had i mean, like a
lot of discussion about that as well of uh, like
I you know, when I was younger, I definitely had
friends with older people, but it was I don't know,
just the gray areas of that relationship did There's endless discussion,

(01:08:58):
But I was curious on what you're what your take
on that was. It's like I have like two brains
about it, Like I have like honestly like my my
my feminist brain, and then I have like my just
storytelling brain, and like as a storytelling device. I think
that it's handled in a way that I think is
as respectful as it can be for something so like

(01:09:20):
odd like I think that they do a good job
of not having Seymour be predatory, and like how he
treats Enid. I feel like, for the most part throughout
their relationship, he's very respectful of Enid, like and even
and even with Dana when he's like stopped hanging out
with it, I'm like he's doing a lot of the
right things, but my feminist brain has a problem with

(01:09:42):
it because then it's putting all of the autonomy of
instigating the sexual relationship on Enid, who is like eighteen
max because she just graduated high school, who is like drinking,
who is like I feel like there's like it's Steve
Bushemi's character who should be getting these boundaries, Like when
Dana comes in and it's like, why are you friends

(01:10:04):
with someone this young? It's a legitimate question, you know,
like why are you friends with someone this young? And
like I can't, Like I've had relationships with much older men,
and like, do I think that all of them were correct? No,
And I think that it's one of those things where
if it was like this wasn't that she did and
we had more time to even spend with her being
like I regret it. I rushed into this thinking that

(01:10:27):
I was being empowered, but I really wasn't, because I
I'm just with him because I need to feel something
with somebody that would be interesting. But instead, because Steve
Bushemy like gets fired and he's sad about it, it
becomes all about her having to go and say, like
I think that you're great you're my hero, and I'm like, girl,
what I just it becomes all about her uplifting him

(01:10:51):
and like making him feel better. That like even the
things that could be interesting about exploring this relationship between
them is really Emma did because it's all about him. Yeah,
it's it is like a very bizarre treatment of the
I don't know, like we we sort of discussed kind
of the mindset you're talking about, like being both minds

(01:11:12):
about it, Like it doesn't make I don't know, I
I don't know. I don't know. This movie is difficult,
and I think also, like he said, like it's not
there are so many things in the movie where I'm like,
if we could just spend more time with Enid in
this moment, it would be so much more meaningful. I think,

(01:11:32):
like she spends all this time trying to get see
Moore a date, which girl, why I don't understand, and
then like he does with someone who she doesn't approve of,
and then instantly she's like jealous, but she doesn't do
what does it have the default to you having sex
with a much older man? Like why why does it
have Why can't you just just go on that bus
without having to cross that line or maybe even do

(01:11:53):
it just be a kiss? Why does it have to
be sex? You know, like why does it have to
be that thing? Which like and have it be her
who's like not even discussed it, just like, oh, I
rushed into this, and he's like, so you're going to
move in with me? And and it frames him to
be the victim and so much of that. And I'm
not saying that he's a villain, but I am saying

(01:12:14):
that he is old enough to have better judgment about
what this relationship is, you know, like even if they
are going to have sex, I think he really genuinely
believes that she's going to move in with him or
that he's going to break up with his like appropriate
girl friend to be like you know what I mean,
it's just like you do. Just I'm like, I do
wish that she had someone in allowed to talk to

(01:12:35):
who wasn't Steve Bushemy in this moment. And then the
Steve Busheny character, I don't know, I feel like there's
a lot of even like the details around Steve Bushey's
character where you know, Seymour is like, you know, I
don't think an aggressively bad person, but he he gets
away with a lot, including kind of ending up with

(01:12:56):
this victim narrative when he is friends with a teenage
girl and knee to be the adult in this situation,
and then in the same way when he is like,
I don't know just the way that he is, like
he has this racist art at his house, he loves
black music and and is like hanging out with all
his old guy white friends, and there's there's no self

(01:13:19):
awareness around that. There's no real accountability applied to him
in terms of like, well, if you know you're working
for such a racist company, why you know why? And
that that was another thing that it seems like the
movie might try to like attempt to address, probably not well,
but attempt, but then it's just kind of dropped of, like, well,

(01:13:41):
he just has this. He just has this, and it's
just the thing he has, right. And it's the same
thing with like when Enid brings the art in and
she's trying to justify why she thinks it's this like
profound piece of art, and she really stumbles through her
answer and gives what's essentially a non answer, but her
art tea, her white art teacher, is like, this is remarkable,

(01:14:04):
and I'm like, okay, is the intent of this movie
to show how cavalier white people tend to be about racism?
But I'm like, if that is the intention, it's again
it's so poorly handled because we're only seeing this through
white character's perspectives. Like the couple black characters you see

(01:14:25):
who are like protesting at the little gallery show, or
like the character who is credited as black student in
the art classroom is just like, hey, that it's not right,
and that's the only perspective you get on it from
any black people. And it's just like so much of

(01:14:46):
this stuff that we're talking about apparently is not what
the graphic novel includes. No, there's not a lot of Steve. Yeah,
he's not in it a lot. It is much more
about Enid and Rebecca's friendship. So things that make you
go home to quote m Z is like, why is
it when you made this movie about these two teenage
girls going through this you know, transitional space, did it

(01:15:09):
all of a sudden have to have like a male
character have such a giant role in this film, Like
that's that's us to me? Like, and after reading that,
I was like even more disappointed because you can tell
at the beginning that they're supposed to be these elements
of like how close they are together. Like from what

(01:15:30):
I've read, there's definitely more discussion about them being perceived
as queer together, and I'm like, oh, yeah, that's definitely there.
They don't explore it at all. Rebecca is barely there. Yeah,
she's barely there. And they're supposed to be this whole
issue of like Rebecca being the attractive one that everyone wants,
and it's just like they don't really do anything with

(01:15:51):
it. It It supposed to be this whole thing with Josh.
They don't do anything with that. So it just feels
like a lot of missteps and attempts to make it
more i don't know, cynical male focus. Like it feels
like it feels like they're like, we need a guy
to sell this movie, and they like, let's get Steve Boushemy.
And it's like and it's like I can tell that

(01:16:13):
this movie because it's it is very beloved, and I
can see that because I think that any time that
a movie comes out, like with two teenage Girls, where
they're just very mad, it's because like usually you know,
it's like the mean girls or the clueless is and
it's like, oh yeah, finally a movie for the other

(01:16:33):
kinds of girls. But I hate that the economy anyway.
Is there anything else you wanted to touch on? No,
I just I remember like when they sleep together, I
like wrote on my iPad, I was like underline underline, underline, underline, underline, underline.
I was so like gobsmacked. I really wish I enjoyed

(01:16:54):
it more because I think that the performances are really good,
Like I actually like Scarlett Johansson in the movie Wow Surprised,
but she was really I thought she was goodness. I
actually liked her character more. I thought Steve Bushey was,
you know, very good like he was. I really kind
to his performance. It made me like probably enjoy seem more,
much more than I would have otherwise. The last thing

(01:17:15):
I wanted to share so I read this piece by
my friend Megan Kistar. She read a profile on Terry's
Wigoff a couple of years ago in and she includes
a picture of thora Burt and Scarlett Johansson in ghost World,
and they like wrote a little message to Terry's Wigoff

(01:17:35):
and uh, you know, interpret as you will. But Scarlett Johansson,
who is fifteen when this movie came out or sixteen. Um,
she writes next to her name, Terry. As much as
I would like to think, you wouldn't, please don't hang
this picture on your bedroom ceiling, Scarlett, so you know,
for everyone's consideration, Jesus, there is that scene where like

(01:17:59):
David Crosses character is like hitting on her and I'm like,
she's obviously a child like truly, Yeah, I was equally
like jump scare to see David cross in this movie
as I was jump scared to see Bob Odenkirk and
little women like you just don't see either of them coming.
You're like the twist, Oh my gosh. Well, thank you

(01:18:27):
for joining us Princess Special little segment. We'll return to
the the regularly scheduled episode the first um where can
people follow you online and check out your stuff so
they can follow me at week's Princess Um Twitter and
they can find my YouTube channel Malina Pendulum as well. Well.

(01:18:49):
Thank you again so much, and we'll talk to you
back to the episode. So, as far as the Bechtel
test goes, it us pass handily, mostly between Enid and Rebecca.
There's also just a lot of different combinations of characters,
female characters speaking to each other. But let's put it

(01:19:11):
to our nipple scale, So a nipple scale of zero
to five nipples. This is the Becto cast nipple scale.
Uh so zero to five nipples based on how the
movie fares from an intersectional feminist lens. So on one hand,
you do have a different version of teen girls, and

(01:19:33):
we have seen prior to this in most movies geared
towards teenagers and young adults. So I think there's a
lot of value in that. I do see how relatable
en it is for a lot of people, me included
both in it and Rebecca. Like I saw parts of
myself in in it and in Rebecca and maybe even Josh.

(01:19:53):
You know, I also was making ice cream for children
as a teenager, so you know, and just like teenagers
torturing each other at their jobs is very universal experience. Yeah,
because i have no nostalgia or attachment to this movie,
and I'm coming at it strictly from the lens of

(01:20:14):
really just having like seeing it as a young person
only that one time, and then watching it through my
current lens. It's it's really I'm able to sort of
separate things. Um in a different way than someone who
did grow up with this movie and does have more
of an attachment to it, I guess, And that's just
sort of a nature of what this show is. Like,

(01:20:35):
how does the media we saw as young people, how
did that affect us? How did that affect culture at large?
You know all that kind of stuff, So like, yeah,
what is it like to revisit it? And right, So
with all of that in mind, that plus the things
that I take a big issue with, which is the
way it really mishandles, the racist art component of the store,

(01:21:00):
the fact that there is a sexual relationship between these
two characters who have such an enormous disparity in their
emotional maturity. And yes, you could make the argument that
Seymour is not the most emotionally mature man in his
forties ever, But like, he has a better sense of
who he is, he knows what he likes, he has

(01:21:23):
established an adult life for himself, whereas Enid is still
figuring out who she is and what she wants. And again,
she's just so newly out of high school. She has
not lived as an adult, and her emotional maturity is
still developing. And the whole situation just gave me a

(01:21:47):
lot of pause and just made me overall feel pretty uncomfortable.
So with all that in mind, I guess I would
give it for me. It just kind of goes right
down the middle, like a two point five. Uh, nipples
is what I will give it. And we also award
our nipples, So if you would like to do that, um,

(01:22:07):
that is an option to you. So I will give
one of my nipples to end, one to Rebecca, and
I will give one to the art teacher to Roberta. Yeah,
Roberta gets a half. I'll go two and a half
on this one as well. Yeah. I like. I like
how how much agency the characters have. I like how

(01:22:29):
much they funk up. I liked they're like trying to
fit in, failing to fit in, trying to fit in again.
Like all of that is so like. I feel like
almost any team girl could see parts of themselves in
that process of trying on a personality. Oh this isn't working,
funk this, I'm gonna try this, and and all that
is so cool and universal and I think well told

(01:22:52):
and I and I I feel like the Seymour relationship
could be a component of that of like, here is
that that is sort of like a friendship, you know,
in it is trying that friendship on, saying is this
where I belong? But then it just ends up taking
up so much space in a way that I'm like,
I would have rather have seen her continue to have
that like kind of pinball struggle instead of really honing

(01:23:14):
in on this one relationship and friendship. I just kind
of wish that they had chosen a different target to
stay focused on there. So I have so much compassion
for adolescence, I swear to God, like the way that
your brain grows and at what rate and the hormones,
Like I really do. I have so much compassion for
people like who are going through that phase of life

(01:23:36):
and showing that discomfort is like, really, it's so challenging.
It's so challenging. I think we use humans are all
permanently traumatized by our adolescence. Yeah, for sure, Um, except
for people like me Laura. And that's why you're like, oh,
why are you so goddamn chipper? For Laura? Also me, Laura,

(01:23:59):
how you not? No, we don't like you. All we're
doing is being you've ever once gotten a hint? Hey, guys,
we should hang out sometimes well, Laura, Laura, she's not
perhaps the most self aware she is, No, not a
shred of self awareness about her, Laura move forward. But yeah,
there's like the focus on I mean kind of similar
to you, Caitlin, and I think that the way that

(01:24:21):
they treat raised in this movie is very weird and
doesn't this was not a movie where they could have
handled that responsibly without bringing in other people, which they didn't,
And so that whole storyline to the point where like
the only black characters who speak are kind of made
to seem over sensitive for being unhappy with the choices
that Enid is making. So they're ray stuff on zero nipples,

(01:24:45):
really negative. So I'm gonna go I'm gonna go two
point five as well. Yeah, when Enid went to Rebecca
and a half, to the girl who put the tamp
on in the cup, yeah for good for her. Julie,
how about you, I don't know, I give it one

(01:25:08):
me at eighteen that well, Julie, thank you so much
for being here. What an interesting thing discussion this movie
has spawned. Yes, and thank you for continuing to challenge,
you know, my ideas about intersectional feminism and to you know,

(01:25:31):
give me things to think about and other people things
to think about, and you know, generationally, I'm just very
appreciative of all approaches to you know, feminism and just
thinking about things the way I have I haven't been
conditioned to. And I I just I really, I really
appreciate those insights to kind of like throttle me from

(01:25:53):
my my little comfort seat of things that I've believed
since I was you know, certain like I don't know,
I just I just appreciate the more conversation the better. So, yeah,
it's a journey. It's a journey that we're we're there.
There's things we have to learn these there's things we
have to unlearn. It's a process. So we're all we're
right there with you. Yeah, but good luck with those
Dipamma movies. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, me a

(01:26:18):
while till we return. There's no urgency. Where can people
follow you? Check out your stuff? Plug away? I am
on Twitter unfortunately. Uh, listen to Double Threat at a
podcast I do with Tom sharp Ling and subscribe and

(01:26:39):
it's really fun and I do that every week. And
then I created a show called Difficult People that I
co starr in with Billy Eichner and all those are
on Hulu, so I'm very proud of those. You can
follow us on social media at Bechtel Cast. You can
subscribe to our Patreon a k a. Matreon, which is
five dollars a month and it gets you to bonus
episodes every month, plus access to the entire back catalog

(01:27:01):
of bonus episodes that's available at patreon dot com slash
Bechtel Cast. We've also got our merch at t public
dot com slash the Bechtel Cast. You can get shirts, pillows, masks,
even all kinds of stuff. Also, thanks again to Princess

(01:27:22):
Weeks for joining us for that special segment. Be sure
to check out her work and follow her on social
media as well. And U

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