Little Miss Sunshine

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women and um are all their discussions just boyfriends and
husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in
best start changing it with the Bedel Cast. Hello, and
welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante,
my name is Jamie Loftus, and it's my birthday episode.

(00:24):
It's your birthday episode, and so we're celebrating accordingly with
one of your favorite movies, as is the birthday tradition
in these your parts. Indeed, if you've never celebrated a
birthday with us, we get to pick movies for our
birthday episode. It's that simple. It's that simple. So we're
doing little Miss Sunshine for my birthday this year. It's
just the two of us. We're going to have just

(00:47):
a romp of an episode, fun, flirty conversation about little
Miss Sunshine. If you're new, first of all, congratulations for
coming in on a birthday episode. What a treat for you. Seriously,
the gift you can give yourself. But we are a
feminist movie podcast that examines popular films using the Bechdel

(01:08):
test as a jumping off point for discussion about how
the movie portrays female identifying characters. Jamie, what on earth
is the Bechtel test? Well, since it's your birthday, I
guess I'll finally clue in on the little secret. Yeah. Thanks.
The Bechdel test is a media metric invented by cartoonist

(01:29):
Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test, that requires
that a piece of media has the following two female
identifying characters with names that talk to each other about
something other than a male identified character for two lines
of dialogue. Oh my goodness, it doesn't happen enough. What

(01:52):
in this movie? Or most rude? How dare this? It's
my birthday? All movies should pass the Bechtel test for
your birthday. Indiana gents passes the Bechtel test. It's just
it's just about one day a year. But yeah, so
that that's the that's the Bechtel test. We pass it

(02:13):
all the time, every freaking day. In fact, should we
test it out right now? Should we? Should we pass it? Okay? Um?
Hey Jamie, what what was I expecting that response? Um? Well,
my name is Caitlin. Thank you for asking. I just
wanted to let you know Jamie that I have poured

(02:34):
myself a birthday Margharita. Wow, well it cheers to you.
Thank you so much with my little glass of Francia
over yonder on the zoom call. And I, if I'm
not mistaken, both my Margharita and your Franzia identify as women. Oh,
she absolutely does. She can't stop talking about it all

(02:56):
day long. I'm discussing women's issues with my various glasses
of Zeah. Did you see that clip? And this I'm
about to stop passing the Bechtel test, but did you
see that clip from a recent episode of Rick and
Morty that a bunch of people sent us. I bravely
have never seen that show. They do a little Bechtel
test bit, do they? Yeah? There are some wonderful um

(03:20):
female writers and allies on that show, so I'm I'm
thrilled to hear it. Yeah, it was pretty a funny
little clip, if I may say, you know, we we
we hear at the Bechtel cast love a funny little clip.
My feelings for Rick and Morty are complicated, but that's
for It's simply not what the podcast is about. And
I couldn't be happier about it. Yeah, yeah, it's my birthday. Yeah,

(03:43):
we gotta steer the conversation away from Rick and Morty
and steer different male helmed project. So we're talking about
Little Miss Sunshine. Um, Jamie, what is your history and
your relationship with this film? I am honestly so surprised
that I had never seen this entire movie. But what

(04:04):
I know, it's right up my alley. If I had
seen it when it came out, which I was at
the right age to see it. I truly don't understand
how I missed this movie when it came out. I
just never I don't know, I just haven't. I've seen
clips of it. I basically knew what happened in the movie,
but I had never seen the whole thing in one setting.
So it was like truly a pleasure to sit down

(04:26):
and watch it because it's a great movie. I really
love it. It's so good. I know. Yeah, thank you,
and I'd like to also thank your birthday for finally
bringing the whole of this movie into my life. It
was I cried so many times during this movie. I
got real emotional. It was who what a journey? I love?

(04:46):
What's your what's your history? First? Of all my birthday
says you're welcome. Um. And secondly, oh, we should do
a little context I guess, which is that? So on
the Matreon for Matrons, yes, I did a little poll,
which I often do because, um, not only do we
do a regular main feed birthday episode for each of us,

(05:07):
we also dedicate each of our birthday months. Yes we
here's the here's the fact. We like our birthdays. Okay,
we simply like our birthdays and every year we make
a big fucking deal about it. And that's we're within
our rights to do. So, that's true. So what I
did was on the Patreon aka Matreon, I did a

(05:28):
little poll of a few of my favorite movies that
we have not yet covered, and I was basically the
top two most voted on movies we're going to be
the two that we covered on the Matreon this month,
and little Miss Sunshine blew the other ones out of
the fucking water. It really did. And and like we

(05:49):
sort of we sort of knew that we knew people
wanted this episode, but that really it was an unprecedented response.
I think the most overwhelming response in a history of
the Matreon. I believe so because sometimes there will be
a pretty even split between like a few movies, but
a lot of Election two thousand going on in the Matreon.
But not this time. Not this time, we had a

(06:11):
clear winner. So we decided, hey, maybe we should move
this up to the main feed and then do something
else on the Matron. So that's what we did. So
this was originally going to be a Matron Patreon episode,
but I said, hey, it's my birthday. I can do
what I want. I want to share the joy of
little Miss Sunshine. I don't want to put this behind

(06:33):
the pay well. It's available to everyone here, so okay,
to be fair, the other two birthday movies you chose,
it's a whole pile of man. It's Monty Python and
Sean of the Dead. Yes, soups Supsies, listen, it's it's
these are we're constantly you know. I'm very glad that

(06:55):
little Miss Sunshine has mosied her way onto the main feed.
It feels right. Yes. I also realized that those three movies,
my three birthday picks, are all like journey from point
A to point B movies, Like it's just all about
like a quest I love, I love, A good quest
to me to love it. I feel like quests and romps,

(07:15):
if done well, go hand in hand. Really absolutely, yes,
I love it. So that's just me anyway. So my
history with the movie is it came out when I
was twenty. I saw it in theaters. When it came out, like,
I instantly loved it. I was like, oh my god,
these performances are incredible. I remember thinking that this family

(07:39):
in the movie was the closest thing to my family
that I had ever seen on screen. And they aren't
even that close, but like, it was still the most
accurate depiction of of my family that I had ever seen.
I just loved how you know, realistic and genuine all
the characters felt. I was obsessed with the score. Um.

(08:02):
I was in the middle of my undergrad film school
education when the movie came out, and every short film
I made that year I used songs from this score
in my student films. Very cool, no way, So this
is this was one of my boyfriend's favorite movies and
he I guess that there was am I don't even

(08:23):
know which comic it was, but there was a comic
that was using the score from this movie in their show,
and my boyfriend, like I think was kind of being
kind of like, you probably haven't heard of this, so
you know, like, are you having trouble finding it? And
he's like, yeah, it's the score from Little Miss Sunshine.
I've heard it. And the guy was like mortified because
he thought he had like galaxy brained everybody and everyone's like, no,

(08:46):
we know what this is. It was a very popular movie. Unrelated.
I want to see your student films from undergar. You
don't want to see them place place for my birthday?
I can wait. Oh okay, all right, I do have
a few on DVD. I have a few. Um, they're
so embarrassing I would be mortified. I've got some too,

(09:06):
we can swap. Okay, all right, let's have a screening party.
That will probably have to do again from Afar. Okay,
sorry I interrupted. So you know the music and us
the music. I was just obsessed with the movie. I
I loved it. I bought it on DVD as soon
as it came out. I watched it many many times.

(09:28):
Absolutely loved it. But it wasn't It's not one that
I've revisited in recent years. I'm not quite I don't
know why, because I like It's not that I stopped
loving it or anything like that. I just I don't
know Paddington came along. You only have so much real
estate for favorite right there. I feel like this is
like I feel like the two thousands were a big
year for four indie movies, but more so the indie

(09:52):
movie aesthetic. And this movie is like Cannon. But I
think I think that why I hadn't I didn't see
this movie the year it came out was that my
intro to movies that were sort of indie but kind
of not was Juno, and so I think this just
this movie came out a year too soon. Sure, but
this was like this was like Golden Age, quirky white

(10:15):
families on a mission to do various things. Two thousand six, Baby,
we were all there. Should I do the recap and
we'll go from there. Let's do it, Okay, Caitlin's birthday
recap of Flow with Sunshine. Okay, so we meet Olive.
That's Abigail Breslin. So cute. And if you're a listener

(10:36):
of the podcast, you know that I'm not the biggest
fan of many child actors, not the actors themselves, but
their inability to be good actors, the acting style, acting
let's blame it on the instructors. The acting style can
be very grading, indeed, but Abigail Breslin is an incredible

(10:58):
child actor. She's an natural and she's from a family
of good child actors because her brother Spencer was on
Even Stevens as Beans. Oh. Another show that I have
not watched, Ground Floor Shaya. I don't know if it
was actually good, but I know that I watched it great.
So all of is a seven year old girl who

(11:19):
loves all things beauty pageants. We meet her dad, Richard
played by Greg kinnear um. He is a motivational speaker
with this nine step refused to lose program. He loves winners,
he hates losers. Then we meet her brother Dwayne. That's
Paul Dano. Oh boy. We learned that he has taken

(11:44):
a vow of silence until he gets into the Air
Force because he wants to fly jets. He's also obsessed
with Nietzsche. Sure, I mean, you're just like, all right,
he's supposed to be what a sixteen year old boy
we all knew a version of the Paul Dano character. Yeah,
I'm thinking I'm thinking of a very specific kid in

(12:06):
the percaution section. Okay, yeah, could just be the haircut.
Not sure? Oh sure. Then we meet her grandpa played
by Alan Arkin. Um. He is a heroin Addict. And
then we meet her mom, Cheryl. That's Tony Collett, our queen.
I know, I kind of forgot she was in this movie.

(12:28):
When I think of this movie, I think Abigail Breslin
and Alan Arkin and kind of Steve Carrell. So I
was I I kind of half forgot she was in it,
and then was thrilled, Oh my gosh, she's she's present.
She's not as present as she should be, and we'll
talk about that. Well. I think that I sort of
forgot she was in it because she doesn't have enough
good scenes. But yes, um. So anyway, she is picking

(12:50):
up her brother all of his uncle Frank played by
Steve Carrell. She's picking him up from the hospital because
he has just attempted suicide. They sit down to dinner
together as a family. We realize that there's a lot
of tension in this family. A lot of the people
don't really like each other or are only pretending to

(13:12):
like each other. Things like that, and then Olive listens
to a message on the answering machine, saying that she
has been given a spot in the Little Miss Sunshine
pageant and she is very excited about this. The only
trouble is that it's in Redondo Beach, California. Ever heard
of it? And they live in New Mexico. Yes, New

(13:34):
Mexico is the perfect place for this family. It really is. Yeah,
and their house is so I've for some reason bout
to New Mexico for various reasons many times. Wow, brag,
thank you so much. I've been Albuquerque five or six times.
I went to a strip club in Albuquerque on my
road on my road trip when I moved from Boston

(13:57):
to l A. Albuquerque is in my experience, I mean limited,
but also weirdly statistically a lot. Uh. It's a weird place.
It's a weird place where weird things happen. I like
that they live in Albuquerque, which I guess was not originally.
This was originally supposed to be from I think Maryland
to California. And they're like, um, what about Albuquerque. We

(14:20):
can only afford to get you as far as New Mexico.
But if it works perfectly, yeah, um my quick little
because it's my birthday, I can do what I want.
My quick little anecdote about my time in New Mexico
was I was traveling across country. My best friend j
T was my travel companion, and we were just kind
of walking around the streets of Albuquerque and we happened

(14:45):
upon this strip club and if you were a couple,
you got in for free. So j T and I
pretended to be a couple, and we really know this story.
This is a good story. Thank you. We really over
so hold it there. I feel like everyone in that
position does. We were like, babe, babe, come on, let's

(15:07):
go to the strip club. And then we were like
making out with each other. Um, and it was really cool,
really cool thing, and then we went into really cool.
Well I'm congratulations, thank you so much. Um. It was,
I will say weird. Albuquerque was the I think the
last time I was there was in like the month
of May, and it was so hot that I never

(15:31):
want to know what it's like. They're in not May.
To all our listeners in New Mexico, you're very brave,
you are. It's simply too hot there. So we have
to also take into account that every character in this
film is constantly affected by heat. Stroke, So that just
the fact that they're making irrational decisions at times, can

(15:54):
we we can assume that their whole live has been
at nine degrees and they're driving in this VW bus,
which we'll get to in a moment, but I have
to imagine the air conditioning was either non existent or
not very good in that vehicle. So so they're sweating
all over each other. It's it's no wonder things fall apart.
Don't blame capitalism or the system. I think we can

(16:16):
just blame the heat of New Mexico. Okay. Anyway, So
this is the trip they have to make, and the
pageant is two days away, and based on some specific circumstances,
they realize that for this trip to work out, for
them to be able to get all of to the

(16:36):
pageant on time, the entire family has to go, and
they are going to go in this old Volkswagen bus.
So they set off. There's a scene in a diner
where Olive and her dad talk about ice cream. We
will discuss that later, an important scene. Then they just

(17:00):
cover that the clutch in the bus is shot and
they take it to like a mechanic and they find
out they can still drive the vehicle as long as
they get out and push to kind of skip over
the first gear or two. Um quirky alert, Yeah it's true. Okay,
So they set off again after having pushed the vehicle,

(17:24):
but they soon have to pull over again because Richard
gets a call from someone named Stan Grossman. It's Brian Cranston.
It's Brian Cranston, as we will soon find out, he's
the guy who's helping Richard to facilitate this book deal
on his nine step program. And he learns that the
deal didn't go through, and everyone's upset about this whole thing,

(17:46):
and then they accidentally leave without Olive, but then they
realize it, and then they swing back around and grab
her in one of my favorite scenes in the movie.
I remember that scene in the trailer of the movie.
It's iconic. It does not end up being as big
of a problem as the trailer would lead you to believe.
They remember immediately and she is fine. But it is

(18:07):
a fun scene indeed. Yes. So then that night they
check into a motel and Richard and Cheryl fight a
bunch and Richard is like, screwed this, so I'm gonna
go fix it. So then he drives to Scott's Dale,
where he knows Stan Grossman is at the moment and
confronts him and then we're like, oh my gosh, yeah
there's Brian Cranston. He's looking really like pretty fucking hot,

(18:33):
and like in turn, because Brian Cranston like often alters
himself physically, and you're kind of like, oh, yeah, he's
kind of like a traditionally hot daddy. That was my
takeaway from that. Okay, I think he's hot in this movie.
That's great. Um, I did not have those same feelings.
I was like, he's scruffy. He's if he wants to

(18:55):
be scruffy, he can be scruffy, but not I mean
seeing him, you know, all shaven off in his underwear
selling drugs or something. I don't know, to watch the shows,
it's more or less it. Um. So basically nothing gets
resolved with this confrontation and Richard storms off, and then
the following morning, Grandpa won't wake up, so they take

(19:19):
him to the hospital where he is pronounced dead. But
they can't leave him there, and they can't take him
with them because the body can't cross state lines without
a permit, right, So they decided to sneak him out
of the hospital and head the rest of the way
to Rodondo Beach with his dead body in their trunk.

(19:41):
Great scene, hilarious, love it, um, And of course what
happens next is they get pulled over because that's comedy writing, baby, Um.
And the cop that pulls them over is Hank from
Breaking Bad, and we're like, wait a minute, is everyone
from Breaking Bad in this movie? That's out of my

(20:01):
breaking bed breadth of knowledge. Well, he wasn't on the poster,
So if he wasn't on the if he's not the
two guys on the poster, I don't know who he is. Um.
That sameness is weird. There is this is like more
of a writing note or just like not even a
writing note, but like the props should have been shifted differently.

(20:22):
In that scene, there's a very clearly a corpse writ
in front of the police officer and he's like, like,
it's funny, but the places the props are put, You're
just like he would see the corpse, he would see
the corps. It is right there in front of him.
This is script notes with Jamie. Oh cute. I guess

(20:43):
the idea is that he's just so horny for porn
that he doesn't notice the dead body right there in
front of him. Also, uh, nothing bad happens when white
guys are pulled over, right, yes, I feel like it's
a white guy or even like a white person, like
a white woman as well. Getting getting pulled over is
more often played for comedy, and when it's a non

(21:07):
white character that is like not the case as often,
but like this is a very like it is ha
ha funny. This man has a court like like Greg Canary.
You know, even though his family is adorable, they are
breaking the law. Uh, but you you never really think
they're going to get like caught. And then it's like
oh ha ha, the police officer's horny. Bye bye um.

(21:30):
That's I mean, that's not even a critique of the
movie as much as just like kind of a a
trend that reflects an unfortunate reality because fuck the world. True.
So anyways, the police officer poses no threat to them, surprised,
so he lets them go. And now the family is

(21:51):
only forty five minutes away from their destination, but the
check in deadline is also in forty five minutes, so
time is of the essen is here, but they have
to pull over again because Dwayne has an outburst because
he finds out that he's color blind and that means
he will not be able to fly jets. No, Paul Daniel,
Paul Daniel, you wanted to fly the plane so bad

(22:17):
the I just need to like make a quick note
just because I feel like this happens in movies a lot.
I mean, Paul Dano is like kind of a notoriously
baby faced man. But he is twelve years younger than
Tony Colette. Yes, and I would like to say I
object he is not he is technically he's old enough

(22:40):
to be Greg Kinnear's son. If Greg Kinnear had a
son when he was twenty one years old, he is
not old enough to be Tony Collette's son. Um, which
is you know, I mean, she's she's a community what
can't she do? But also I was like, wait a second, right,
this Paul Dano business, You're just like, who do you
think you're fully? Anyways, we don't know, maybe he's adopted.

(23:03):
We don't know. Maybe she adopted him when she was
twelve when oh right that house that makes sense? Well no,
but if she like was like, maybe she adopted him
when she was let's full blow Cannon. This if she
adopted him when she was like twenty five or twenty
six and he was already like ten years old, like
if she adopted him when he was like not when

(23:25):
he was an infant, when he was got older. But
but that is in no way implied in Cannon. We're
just there, like Tony Colette was twelve, I guess, yeah,
I guess they're relying on you, assuming that um Paul
Dana was much younger than he actually is in this movie.
He looks sixteen in this movie, like I think his
character is supposed to be like sixteen or fifteen sixteen anyways, Yes,

(23:48):
So he has an outburst and then another one of
my favorite scenes follows where they don't know how to
like comfort him or kind of get back on track
on this trip. But then all of goes and just
like puts her little arm around his and then he's
like angel and then he's like, okay, let's go, because

(24:09):
moments before this he was like, fuck you guys, you're
not my family. I hate all of you, your losers.
Just leave me here. I never want to see you again.
But then he's like, oh way, all the she's the best.
It's great. So they get back in the car again.
They make it to the pageant, just in the nick

(24:30):
of time. Then Olive prepares for the pageant, and it
quickly becomes obvious to all of and her family that
Olive isn't competing at quite the same level as the
other contestants. And there's a whole conversation to be had
about pageants and all of that, although the movie does

(24:53):
not go super deep into it, which I which I
kind of like, having never seen this movie all the
way through, was kind of I mean, I guess I
don't really feel one way or another about that choice,
but I thought that the movie was going to be
way more about the pageant than it ended up being.
It's a pretty brief part. Yeah, it's mostly I mean,
they don't even get there till the beginning of the

(25:16):
third act. Um, what a screenwriting master's degree? Does she
have one? Yes? I'd never bring it up though. Um so, yeah,
the pageant isn't really the focus of the story really,
But they arrive at the pageant, she goes on stage.
You know, they're doing their you know, talents and things

(25:36):
like that, and then Dwyane and Richard are like all
of should not do this. Everyone is going to laugh
at her, but then Cheryl is like, you know, this
is what all of wants and we're gonna let her
do it. We're gonna let her be her. And then
you're like, I see where they're both coming from and
now and then I did like the touch of like
Cheryl does offer her a last minute out, like, don't

(26:00):
have to do this if you don't want to. So
it does. It is like clearer that that it's olives
choice to do it like that, yes, indeed, and she
does make the choice to go through with it. So
it's time for all of to perform her talent and
this is what she had been working on with Grandpa
kind of in the back story. But we haven't seen
this routine before. We the audience and the family, no

(26:22):
one has seen it before. And it turns out to
be this this as horny as his magazine. It's it's
this creepy like stripped tease like dance to super Freak
that Grandpa choreographed, and everyone is horrified, people start leaving.

(26:45):
Her family is like, oh my god, what's happenings as
her family? It's it is a funny it's so fun
because her family is also fully horrified, but they're like,
we've already, we've come such a long way. Grandpa died,
we should just just let her do the weird day. Yeah,
they're just like, fuck it, we're here to support all
of so can't yell at grandpa about it. He died.

(27:09):
The pageant people are like, get her off the stage,
and they're like no, and then like the dad tackles
the m c of the pageant. Then the whole family
gets on stage and starts stancing with her, and then
so rompy. It's a good movie moment. I love it.
But then we cut to them being reprimanded by like

(27:30):
the hotel security and they're told that they are never
allowed to enter all of into another pageant in the
state of California again. And they're like, that's actually totally
fine by us, because maybe beauty pageants suck. Uh, And
then they do one last push to get the car going,
and then they drive off back home and that's the

(27:52):
end of the movie. It's fun. It's so fun. Let's
take a quick break and then we'll come right back
for a birthday discussion in and we're back. Who oh,
there's so much good stuff to talk about in this movie,

(28:15):
would it makes sense to talk about the stuff that
didn't hit for us quite as well to start? Because
they're there, I feel like we're we're majority love for
this movie. Yeah, I think that works. Yeah, I think
that my one real gripe, if you can call it that.
But like, if this were like truly, for me, the perfect,
most perfectest movie to ever exist, you would get a

(28:38):
more fleshed out specific arc for Tony Collette's character. That
was like what I felt missing because because it's like there,
I mean, it's so rare to have like a family
movie where you know deeply who every character is. And
also everyone in the movie is played by like an

(28:58):
incredible actor, Like no one has to pick up slack
for anyone in this cast. It's so good that I
like felt Tony Kulett not having a full arc, Like
she's the only character that doesn't have a I mean,
she does have an arc, but it's related to the
people in her family. There's not really a piece of

(29:20):
the story that's that's specific to her or her inner life.
And I can see, you know, she feels the caretaking
role in the family. She seems to be the glue
of the family, trying to keep everyone in check, which
is a common role for a mother to have. But
it I mean, that doesn't mean that she doesn't think

(29:41):
about other things and have other you know, thoughts, goals, ambitions, etcetera.
And I feel like this is a movie that definitely
has room for that, where we know exactly what everyone
else in the family wants or wanted or what their
struggle is. And it was just like not as clear
other than keep the family together, right, especially because like

(30:03):
she is established to be the breadwinner of the family,
she is supporting them because there's a like a little
exchange where Richard is like, we can't afford this trip,
it'll eat into our seed money, and then Cheryl's like,
well if I had any help bringing it in. So
we know that she's a working mom. We know that
she has a job and that she is earning the

(30:24):
bulk of their income of this family. We never find
out what her job is. No, we don't, Okay, I
was making I was like, did I miss that? I
don't think we find out what she did. We don't
find out if she likes what she does. It's very
possible she the job she's breadwinning with she loves she's
been very sick, but like, we have no idea, We
have no idea. The best I could get. And then

(30:46):
this is purely a guess based on a few context clues,
because when she's picking Frank up from the hospital, we
can assume that she has left her job because she's
still wearing a name tag. So she's wearing a name tag,
and she is dressed in like business casual. So I
was like, she probably works in like customer service, maybe

(31:06):
at like a bank or something like that. I was,
I was even like, maybe she's like a retail manager
or something like But it's they don't tell us, And
it seems like this movie went through a lot. Maybe
there's a version of the script or of the movie
where you do know, But in this yeah, we we
don't know exactly what she does. We don't know what
her relationship with her job is. We're only given insight

(31:31):
to her as she relates to her family, which isn't
true for basically everyone else in the family we know about.
I mean, in Richard's case, it's all about his job,
his nine step program, right, And for Paul Dana, we
know what he wants to do and like we know
how like he's got this like discipline complex and Ali

(31:53):
wants the pageant, and you know, like Frank is recovering
from this like romantic and professional failure. But like we
just we just don't get that for these the number
one proof scholar in the United States or is he
number two? Not more? And it's killing him. We even
know more. We even know about Grandpa's backstory. You know,

(32:14):
he was at this he's a veteran. He's a veteran.
He was at this like retirement home that he got
kicked a lot of women. He sucks a lot of ladies,
and he tells everyone that they should also do the
same thing, and he has an addiction struggle. Like that's
just yeah, that's I mean five times the amount that
we know about Tony Colette and he dies halfway through, right,

(32:36):
she gets more screen time than him, and we still
know the least amount about her. But then I was like,
so I kind of cataloged all of that, But then
I thought about, Okay, yes, her role in the story
is relegated to, you know, being the mom, and that's
really all we know about her, whereas the predominantly male cast.

(32:57):
We know a bunch of stuff about them, Specifically, they're
like professional pursuits, but they're all kind of their failures
at it in some way, um whereas she's a really
really good mom. And I was like, Okay, well that's something. Yeah,

(33:17):
I don't but even but yeah, I know, I don't
think that she could be a failure at something. We
just don't know. Maybe she's maybe she is a huge failure.
We have no way, and we just haven't let Tony
Colette be a failure. Let Tony had failed for once
she came. Yeah, but I don't know. I wonder because

(33:38):
I mean, Michael, how do you say his latime aren't
aren't Michael Michael Aren't. I respect his work a lot,
and I'm a fan of most of it, even cars
to uh An extremely car. I mean, that's the one
thing where I kind of struggled to find an excuse

(33:58):
for him. I feel I feel like that it is
very possibly And I don't even really mean this as
a severe criticism of him, but just a writer who
doesn't have a ton of insight into how an adult
woman thinks, right, and because he is the soul writer
of the movie, you just kind of don't get a
lot more than that, and then kind of I guess

(34:19):
that same and again this is this is pure speculation,
but I feel like that same kind of you know,
soul credited male writer tour type that he sort of
has become known as. You can sort of trace that
to the like I was expecting going into this movie

(34:41):
way more Tony Collette Abigail Breslin one on one or
like connection than you get. You really don't get a
lot with the two of them. You get like that
moment towards the end, but I mean they're all together
for most of the scenes, but her primary connection with
an adult characters with her grandfather, not her mother, which

(35:02):
is fine, you know, that's true of some families, but
it also kind of stood out to me of like, oh,
we really don't really know much about the mother daughter
connection and they're the only two female characters those are.
I mean, that was like truly like the only thing
that it's not even I mean, I just I just
missed it the same. It doesn't cheapen the product, but
I just missed it. And I was as I was

(35:24):
watching it this time around with a more kind of
critical eye, I was trying to figure out who the
movie frames as the protagonist. To me, it feels like
there's no one character who is really it feels like
more the family unit is the protagonist of this film
rather than any one single character. So I was like, Okay,

(35:44):
we have all these different characters in theory contributing equally
or like being equally important to the story as any
other one character. So for that to be true of
this narrative. But then to give especially Cheryl the mom character,
the least amount of backstory, the least amount of interiority,
no other thing we know about her besides her being

(36:06):
you know, the supportive mom character, was just especially frustrating.
I agree. So a little bit of context corner for
this movie, um, I mean just the main context for
the context quarter is just it took a very long
time for this movie to be made. Um, it took
a thing about seven years for the story being basically

(36:28):
done to it coming out because I guess Michael Aren't
was like at the time he wrote this, he was
like Matthew Broderick's assistant, Like he had a real glow
up narrative. Over time, he's a pretty interesting person. Um.
But all that to say so Originally this movie ended
up selling to I think it was like Focus Features.
They sold the script somewhere, but studio interference got it

(36:51):
just became too much. So the studio executive suggested that
the protagonist shift to being Greg Kinnear, which is where
you get that whole thing with him going to Scottsdale
that originally wasn't there, but it was added. And then
basically Michael Aren't was kind of a real one and
was like, if you want to shift the focus to
be about him, then I'm going to pull the project

(37:12):
and take it somewhere else. So it's still about the family,
but there are I mean, I would argue the movie
leans a little heavy on Richard at times for sure,
but then it's like it was interesting to learn, like
why that was, yeah, his arc with the whole I mean,
there are entire scenes dedicated to just his specific pursuit
of this like book deal and his you know nine

(37:34):
and he's always talking about the nine steps and like
he's he's given a ton of dialogue about it. And
because he's also kind of like a walking metaphor too,
for like he's like the walking American dream metaphor character, right,
which we should make a list of at some point, right,
so he I would say his subplot is given more

(37:56):
focused than I think any other subplot like him and
all of basically get the two most plot impact. Well actually,
but then it's like Grandpa dies. I don't know, all
of isn't super the focus until they get to the
pageant end, right, she she kind of I mean, she's there,
but she's not involved for kind of stretches, right, I

(38:20):
don't know, I mean, it's but there. Well, I guess
I guess that that's a lot of what the movie
kind of like. Obviously, failure is a huge focus on
what this movie tackles, and I think it does it
like mostly in a pretty cool and like thoughtful way
of how does failure affect people? And the majority of

(38:42):
the movie does focus on how does failure affect men?
And then at the end we sort of you sort
of get a peek at like because it's made clear
to the family and all of that, like who she
is and her body and all these parts of her
do not conform to the beauty pageant quote unquote rigid

(39:02):
standard that she has somehow failed as well. And it's
about this family coming to terms with their various failures,
and like, what does failure even mean? Who decides whether
you succeed or whether you fail? Every character sort of
has a different definition of what it means to be
quote a winner or a loser, and like, and what

(39:23):
what is Tony Colletts, don't ask me. I don't know. Yeah,
I guess we don't really know because we hear like
Grandpa's Grandpa's like, you know, losers are just people who
are so afraid of not winning that they don't even try.
And he's like, but you're trying, You're gonna But even Grandpa,
I mean, it's it's this family feels very real in

(39:43):
a lot of ways. And so there are these moments
where I feel like it's kind of I want to
give Michael Aren't the benefit of the doubt and say
it's kind of intentionally done. Of like, it seems like
Grandpa is the only character that comes in having already
kind of rejected the system and rejected this this idea
of what is failure mean? What is success mean? To

(40:05):
the point where he knows that he has an addiction problem,
he doesn't care. He's like, I'm living my life, blah
blah blah, like which is a take on addiction that
is wild uh true. But even he like, it's interesting
that this movie kind of is pushed along by this
pageant because you see Grandpa. Even though Grandpa is nice

(40:28):
guy quote unquote, he also subtly like regulates Olive's body
and behavior a little bit as well, because during the
ice cream scene, I thought it was like such a
I like watched that scene a couple of times just
to make sure, because there's just so much going on
in there. But in the ice cream scene, Grandpa is
one of the driving forces that says like, no, I'll

(40:51):
have eat ice cream, don't worry, and and his first
reason for doing so as he says, I like a
woman with some meat on her bones, which in the
moment is like, oh, that's sweet, But then it also
reinforces that men dictate how women should look, and if
he likes how a woman looks, then how could it
be wrong? And so it's like there's all these like

(41:13):
little I don't know, it's really smart because that's that's
what a grandpa would say. That's what a grandpa trying
to make you feel better, would say something a little
fucked up, right, You're just like, well, I see where
he was going with it that, and it's like simple
enough for her to understand, because again, she's only seven,
so you know, there's all these sort of different things
at play, but I do. Okay, So I want to

(41:34):
talk about the ice cream scene, and I think that
will just sort of be maybe a part of the
larger beauty standards. It's one of the scenes. Yes, So
basically what happens is that they stopped for breakfast, I think,
at a diner and Olive orders her waffles alamode, adorable, alamode.

(41:58):
So she's gonna get ice cream. But before the ice
cream comes, her dad, Richard is like, probably shouldn't have
ordered ice cream because if you eat it, it's going
to make you fat, and you should try and stay skinny.
And then body positivity icon Cheryl all of his mom
says it's okay to be skinny, and it's okay to

(42:19):
be fat if that's what you want to be, whatever
you want, it's okay. And then her dad is like, well, yeah,
but you know those Miss America pageant women, are they
skinny or are they fat? And all of is like, well, yeah,
I guess they're skinny, and he's like, okay, well, it's
probably because I don't eat a lot of ice cream.
So this is the beginning of all of feeling really

(42:42):
bad about herself, her body, her looks, because we see
a few scenes after this where she asks Grandpa in
the motel room. She says, you know, am I pretty
and I wanna I just don't want to be a
loser because daddy hates losers, and she starts crying and
and there's that like devastating. That's the scene that was

(43:02):
like the ice cream tangential scene that like hurt me
the most because there's so many layers to it. Is
when she goes to Miss California and it is like,
do you eat ice cream? And Miss California says yes,
but you're like no, she doesn't like you're There's so
many layers to that where that brought to mind for

(43:22):
me like Instagram Pizza Girl, where it's like a supermodel
holding a slice of pizza being like, OMG, I love
pizza so much, I'm literally addicted, which is like a
larger entertainment trope of oh yeah, we're going to allow
women to eat junk food as long as it's quirky,
fun and they still look the way we want them

(43:43):
to look, which is so that. I mean that scene
was like triple devastating to me because I'm like, Miss
California is I think, lying to her, but it's also
like she seven and it helps. But then you're like,
oh no, that's that's gonna suck in ten years when
you find out Miss California was lying to you. Um,
I mean, I don't know, maybe she does eat ice
cream sometimes, but then she's also like, but my favorite

(44:05):
is actually a frozen yogurt. I mean, who got I mean, yeah,
that the way that beauty pageant winners bodies are policed
just like so well documented that I'm like, I don't
know she eats ice cream. Maybe she has in the
last year, I don't know, but yeah, that scene in
the diner, I really it's it's hard to watch in

(44:26):
a good way, and I like that, like the other
three members of the family are like, we're not going
with this, Like, uh, Richard is such a like flaccid patriarch,
Like he's a failure as a patriarch as well, because
no one listens to what he says. Everyone thinks he's
an asshole, but he's in their families, so they deal

(44:47):
with it. But I I really like the choice that,
like Richard, I thought, really did think he was saying
something helpful to his daughter, which I feel like a
lot of those aren't framed that way, and there should
be in scenes that are like body shamy in that way,

(45:07):
I feel like it is usually an easier writing choice
is made where it's just like they're saying this to
be mean, and they're saying this because they hate you.
But and it's sometimes a character we don't really know
that well, it's just like Bully number three, But this
is like a character that we know, and you can
tell he believes he is like doing the right thing
by body shaming and like policing the food of his daughter,

(45:30):
and he thinks that by policing his daughter's body, she
will become a winner. And I think that that is
like something that like real people can see in themselves
and kind of I would imagine that some people specifically
like men who make comments like that, because I've gotten
comments like that before. I feel like, you know, many

(45:50):
people in general have gotten comments like that before. People
who make comments like that, I think think they're doing
you a favor even though they're being a fucking asshole,
And I've never seen a scene quite like it, where
like it just ends up making a person who thinks
they're doing the right thing looks stupid and they don't
get it totally. But then that comes back to, at

(46:13):
least for me, the Cheryl character, and even in that
scene when she does have a rebuttal to what Richard says,
and like Richard's assholary where she's like, you know, you
can be skinny, you can be fat, you can be
whatever you want to be. It's okay to be whatever
you want. And so she has that little moment. But
I feel like in a lot of the scenes where
Richard is saying something really awful and toxic, which he

(46:35):
does a lot. For example, he's like, don't apologize. It's
a sign of weakness. Don't do anything unless you know
you're gonna win at it. He also equates mental illness
and suicidal ideation to being a loser and being a quitter. Um,
so like he's saying all this horrible stuff all the time,
and I feel like most of the time Cheryl is

(46:56):
just like Richard stop or Richard not, like she's like
she doesn't have I want her to have more intelligent
and thoughtful kind of rebuttals to him, and she just
isn't given that a lot of the time. I wish
there was more of that that I kind of understood
a little more than the not giving her a story thing.

(47:17):
But I guess that's just like in my head, I
was just I interpreted that as a her choosing her
battles thing, because she does push when when she's like
when his book deal falls through, she fucking gives it
to him and it's like, you know, you're a failure,
blah blah blah. So I sort of saw that as
her I mean, kind of like playing off of the

(47:38):
only things we really know about her is she's trying
to keep the peace in the family and that she's
kind of choosing her battles with her deeply insecure husband,
who I'm assuming she loves because I cannot think of
another reason to be with him. I have a feeling
they're like on the brink of divorce. Like I hope
that like six months after like the events of this story,

(48:02):
they are like getting a divorce and that like all
of has quit doing pageants. But over I feel like
I hope for sure that this experience that she's just like,
I'm gonna do literally anything else. And but but yeah,
I mean Richard, I think it's a kind of true
to life too, that it's like Richard definitely grows from

(48:24):
this experience, and like in the space of a day,
he has lost his father and his dream, so that
that is you know, that's hard. But but but I
like that the movie is kind to him in the
general sense, but you don't get to feel like that
he has like learned this great thing. Like you can
picture this character just complaining about the events of this

(48:48):
movie for the rest of his life and never really
learning anything right, which also feels like, you know, people
that pop up in one's life. We've got to take
another quick break, but then we'll come right back Richard.

(49:08):
It was I mean, I think that the movie maybe
gives him a little bit too much real estate over
the events of the movie. But I mean he he
to me seemed like a pretty clear American dream fallacy
type of character where total context corner. I guess that
Michael aren't came up with the idea for this story's

(49:30):
themes in the general sense when he saw a quote
from Arnold Schwarzenegger, Um I think from the nineties where
Arnold Schwarzenegger was talking to a group of teenagers and said,
if there's one thing in this world I hate, it's losers.
I despise them. And he kind of thought that that
quote was gross, which it is, and built out this

(49:51):
story around it. And I think, you know, Richard is
the character that could be most clearly traced to that
quote down to like the first line in the movie.
And I like, it's you know what, Sometimes you're like,
all right, we get it, the American dream doesn't exist,
we get it. But but it is like it is
kind of cool to see someone so firmly grasped to

(50:14):
it and understand why, but also still not like him.
Like I feel like that's a really tight, like a
really like thin line to walk where you don't totally
hate Richard, but you mostly hate him, and but you
also know that you're like, Okay, this is a lower
class family. And the scam, the pyramid scheme of success

(50:36):
is is really appealing because it gives you the illusion
of control. It gives you the illusion of upward mobility
that probably is not actually accessible in most cases because
of the way that things are lined up. And he
just has no understanding that the American dream is not
actually accessible to him, and that it's even less accessible

(50:58):
to his daughter. Like, he doesn't he just doesn't understand it.
He's like a bootstraps guy. Yeah, I feel like he
voted for Gary Johnson. You know, Oh my, that's my headcannon.
He voted for Gary Johnson. I barely remember who that is.
He wore khakis and he was a dumbass. So maybe
that's where I'm pulling from. Yeah, I mean, this is

(51:22):
one of those movies where a lot of the characters
are not people to admire that they have a lot
of you know, toxic views or issues that make them
characters that you didn't you might not necessarily want to
be friends with. But they're still they're written so well,
they're written so realistically. The nuance that these characters are

(51:44):
given make it so that you can't help but feel
compelled by them, even if they're kind of shitty all around.
I mean, like the Grandpa character to like, not a
great guy. He's not. He's not a good guy. He's
you get the sense that he's a pretty heavy misogynist, homophobic,
homophobic stuff Like, yep, he's grandpaing hard, yes, but I

(52:08):
don't know. I would hazard to guests that a lot
of people have a grandpa like him, like out of touch,
you know, racist, misogynist grandpa. But grandpa's ninety years old
and woke. Just kidding. My grandpa's are dead and they
died when I was five, so I have no idea
what kind of people they were. Um, but I don't imagine.

(52:28):
Probably not good. You're like, white grandpa, probably bad views.
It's it's it's it's just math. But yeah, I mean
he he also suck. I mean that that was another
character where I'm just like, is this movie cutting this
guy too much? Like like he's not a good guy,
but but he's Alan Arkin, so you're already like I

(52:50):
love him. And then he and he and he loves
his granddaughter, so we're like, yes, I love him, but um,
you know, but that is kind of the beautiful part
is every man in this story is narcissistic and self
involved and fragile in very different ways, which is cool, yes,

(53:11):
and it's you get a lot of I mean, there's
a lot of different types of fragile masculinity on display here, right,
And we've barely talked about Frank. Right, So Frank Steve Carrell,
he's an academic. He's an academic. He has this kind
of tragic backstory that he is open about. You know,
he is okay to tell his seven year old niece

(53:35):
about I was also having an inner battle in that scene.
I'm just like, that's such a family to family thing.
I'm like, my family for sure would not have told me.
But then it's like, I don't know, it's a family
to family thing. I don't know, right, I'd like to
hear what what our listeners think. But for me, that
scene where more or less he comes out to his

(53:56):
niece by saying, yes, I fell in love with someone
and I was very much in love with him, and
all of goes him it was a boy. You fell
in love with a boy And he's like, yes, I
did very much. And she's like, oh, that's silly. But
we don't get the sense that it's she's like hateful
or anything like that. This is just the first time
she's heard of a man being in love with another man.

(54:19):
And like, you know, there's always the debate of like, well,
how are we going to explain homosexuality to children? They
are gonna get it right, and it's like turns out
it's pretty easy, like they totally yeah, I thought it
was thoughtfully done. And sure kids might not fully understand
immediately or they might have a reaction like oh that's silly.

(54:43):
I mean, at least at this time where there's not
I mean, and this ties to media of like they're
just is not a lot of queer media for children
to even introduce, Like if you don't have a queer
person in your immediate life as a kid, the media
doesn't do much to educate on it. So right, and
then like I mean they turn on the TV and
the motel and like George W. Bush is giving a

(55:05):
speech and we're like, oh right, this was during the
Bush presidency. Yeah. I And and another just good writing
as it pertains to I mean, there's a lot of
good writing going on with Frank just almost in every
and and Steve Kroll is so good in this world,
like he's so good. But the movie does not define

(55:25):
Frank by his queerness, which I feel like is a
bad writing choice that has made all the time. And
it also doesn't explicitly tie his like suicidality to queerness,
because I feel like there's it is also very common
to other a queer character and and make that their
entire arc has to do with their sexuality, and Frank's

(55:46):
arc really doesn't have much to do with his sexuality.
It has to do with a failed relationship, and it
has to do with a professional failure, which I feel
like it's just it's just like having an in queer
character who has proceeded to be written like a person,
which is like what everyone should do. I just I

(56:07):
was really because in two thousands six you just never
know what people are. But but it just it is
like I thought, really, I thought was really well done.
Of like Frank is not really uthered or defined by
his sexuality in the way that I feel like a
lesser two thousand six writer would do for sure for sure,
And I like the Michael aren't rights different types of

(56:30):
toxic masculinity or just like male fragility in general clashing
with each other in such a good way, where like
the way that Richard and Frank's fragility brushes against each
other is so like, oh, I see it, like they
have the same problem and they don't even realize it.
Where where you know they think like this, other persons

(56:52):
like such an asshole, and I don't like them, and like,
I think that like it. It's sort of implied that
Richard thinks that like Frank is like academic and he's
just like pretentious, and Frank thinks that Richard is a fraud,
and they're both kind of right, but it's like boils
down to they both feel like professional failures, but they

(57:13):
don't want to admit that to themselves, and therefore we'll
never talk about it, and therefore they'll hate each other forever.
And you're just like, oh, it's so I mean with
people of all genders, where it's just like, oh, their enemies,
but they don't understand they have the same They should
just see you. They're pissed and I and I really

(57:35):
I thought it was pretty thoughtfully done how Frank's at
the beginning of Frank's story is handled as well, where
he um has tried to take his own life and
survives and his sister Tony class his sister. Yes, they're
they're sister and brother. I kept I was like, I

(57:55):
kept forgetting who was related to but he and so
so she goes to get him and brings him to
the house and just the way that just like pulling
from my own experience, it is kind of like fun
I mean, it's not funny, but in a way, it
kind of is. Where it's like when you bring someone
home who has attempted to take their own life, they

(58:16):
don't want to like be with you, and they don't
want to like sit with an open door, and like
you're like sister's house smells weird and just it's just
like the whole situation sucks and no one knows how
to deal with it. And it was not I mean,
and I'm in no way implying this is funny, but
just like based on my own experience of coming home

(58:37):
after something like that and like being left in like
rooms with the door opened and my dad would kind
of just walk in and be like like, just like
no one really knows how to handle And I thought
that that situation was handled in a way that wasn't.
I mean, again, it's just like it isn't tragedy porn.
It's dealt with in a grounded way, and you know,

(58:59):
it's like the family is doing their best. They they
are not equipped to handle this. I also thought it
was really thoughtful touch how they added in that throw
a line of dialogue about insurance. Yes, how they said, like,
you know, we'd love to keep him longer, but we
can't because of insurance, which happens in these situations more
often than not. And yeah, I just thought that that
whole storyline was dealt with very well. Yeah, I mean,

(59:21):
I don't get me started on health care, health, insurance,
all that stuff. Listen to Sludge for that. But yeah,
I was I was really impressed by at this time
in cinema history and basically throughout all time, you know,

(59:41):
mental illness. Mental health was not handled well in most media.
It was still deeply, deeply stigmatized. Maybe I'm missing something,
but it didn't feel to me as though anything about
Frank's mental illness. To me, it felt like there was
no real stigma that the movie subscribes to maybe certain characters,

(01:00:04):
namely who can't deal and doesn't that man needs therapy? Yeah,
just yeah, which, But I feel like he's reflecting like
the opinion of okay about to get Galaxy brand, the
opinion of capitalism, Like he's just regurgitating the American dream

(01:00:24):
take on struggling with mental illness, which is that it's
unproductive and therefore for losers it's not serving capitalism. Yeah,
just pick yourself up by your bootstraps and just like
deal with it exactly. Yeah, so stuff like that. Yeah,
I thought it was really like, no one knows how
to handle that situation. No family is going to deal
with it perfectly, but everyone is trying. I like, I

(01:00:47):
really liked that quick scene with Paul Dano and Steve
Carell where he writes on his notepad like, please don't
kill yourself because it's again, it's just like the specifics
of that situation. It's like you can tell Paul, I know,
was like, I love my uncle and I don't want
him to die. Also, that would be a very stressful
thing to happen in my room. Like, you know, it's

(01:01:07):
just it's really well done. I don't know, it's just
it's so rare to see a situation like that. There
are a number of times in this movie where I
thought about the royal Ton in Bombs and how much
better this movie is than The royal Ton in Bombs.
Oh yeah, because that's another movie that has a long
opening montage where you meet the whole family and you

(01:01:28):
have a character who attempts to take their own life,
and just I feel like everything that The Royal Town
of Bombs does well, almost everything, because we still need,
as we said, more Tony Collette information. Uh but but
like the reyal Ton of Moms are a huge thing
with that opening montage was that we only find out
about the female characters as they relate to the male characters.

(01:01:51):
And the way that the suicide plot line was handled
in that movie was pretty atrocious. And you see similar
themes pop up in this movie that they that is
just done far more thoughtfully. And yeah, I agree a
couple other just kind of quick things that I had.
Um Well, I guess I want to talk about more

(01:02:12):
about just the idea of pageants, beauty pageants, all that
pageant movies. We have almost all of them pretty more
or less. We have done Miss Congeniality on the main feed,
and then let's not forget about Pigentials, which we did

(01:02:32):
a few januaries ago and we covered dropped out Gorgeous
and Dumpling Too great movies. There's a lot of It's
it's kind of like it's bizarre because we we don't
really funk with pageants, but we generally funk with pageant movies, right,
but only because they're usually making a larger point. Yes,

(01:02:54):
And like you already mentioned, the pageant isn't necessarily really
what this movie is about. It's more about this family
and the family dynamics and them having to get through
a bunch of kind of traumatic things that happened to
several of them over the course of this trip to
a pageant. And then the story does conclude with all

(01:03:17):
of competing and stuff like that, and and then there's
a little bit of examination of like, well, it's pretty
fucked up that we have little girls compete in these pageants.
We are encouraging, like the sexualization of children in in
these like children pageants. You know, I don't think again,

(01:03:37):
the movie goes into great detail about I think it.
It doesn't. It doesn't say a ton, but I feel
like it says enough. Yeah, it's not subtle. It's definitely
not subtle, but it's not overbearing. It's not like the
The agenda of this movie isn't too indict or like

(01:04:00):
heavily critique pageant culture. There's a little bit of that.
There's like a little sliver of it, especially most notably
when Dwayne and Richard go to Eryl backstage and they're
like they basically said, like, we're not in Kansas anymore.
This is a whole different ballgame, olive, Like everyone is
going to laugh and ridicule people have like remortgaged their

(01:04:22):
house to be here, like yeah, like, and I thought
it was interesting that they're they're I guess all the
girls in the Little Miss Sunshine pageant are actual pageant kids. Yes,
I read that as well, and that they're like I guess,
And I think this was like a kind of a
smart thing to do that the pageant parents who came
with with the girls were asked what do you think

(01:04:43):
and they were like, well, it's a little over the top,
but not too much. And you're like, oh boy, but
I've but I've also seen toddlers and tierras, So I
don't ask me why. I got sick once and I
watched a lot of it. I embarrassingly watched several, many,
many episodes of Here comes Sonny Boo Boo. So oh,

(01:05:05):
I forgot that that was where Honey Boo Boo came from. Yeah,
I think so. And I think she was a Tyler's
and tiarist kids. Well, I'm glad that we at least
we very rarely have like an overlapping guilty pleasure. That's
a funny yeah. So bottom line is, like I mean,
we could have a whole discussion which I think we've
already had on various episodes of the podcast, just generally

(01:05:28):
speaking about like maybe beauty pageants aren't that good because
you know, there's this emphasis on adhering to Western beauty
standards and all those problems that we foist upon women
and young girls like from a very early age, like
and it's it's the same thing of Richard being like

(01:05:48):
you have to be skinny, don't eat ice cream. We
want you to stay skinny, and like just all these
all these expectations that we foist upon women and girls
about like the your beauty is your most important quality
and let's make a whole industry around exploiting that via
beauty pageants, and like how fucked up all of that is.

(01:06:10):
But then also like feminism says like you can do
whatever you want. So if you want to compute beauty pageants,
like if you that there have been like I don't beautiful.
It's like a very complicated discussion that we've had in
various capacities. I'm not wholesale condemning them, and it's like,
you know, there there are different ways to look at

(01:06:31):
I'm I'm not a fan, but I'm like also not
petitioning to have them shut down. I don't know, like
this this movie is not, you know, making a new
point about beauty pageants, but but I don't think it's
necessarily trying to. And and I think it is kind
of nice that the movie does firmly come down not
on the side of it, which is kind of nice

(01:06:53):
because that's like a point that like Miss Congeniality doesn't
get there. She wins, you know, Miss Congeniality, and she's like, well,
maybe this was nice. I think I'll stay hot, you know,
like that that whole thing. So it's like at least
little Miss Sunshine, you know, firmly it was like we
don't funk with this, which is which is refreshing. Yeah.
I think like generally, for the time we spend there,

(01:07:15):
the points that are made are good ones. There was
did you see the behind the scenes not that Abigail
breslin Um wore like a padded suit to play this character.
Oh no, that is a thing that took place. Interesting.
I guess that the olive character was described in the

(01:07:35):
script as quote Plump and that Abigail Breslin was asked
to wear a padded suit throughout filming. Okay, so I
will say I think that that's a bit weird. I
think that that's weird in general when a woman is

(01:07:57):
asked to wear a padded suit that does not have
to do with like needing to appear pregnant for a role,
I generally don't like it right that to me, the
idea is like, if your story calls for a character
that is plus size, then cast an actor who fits
that description, Which is not a slight against Abigail Breslin

(01:08:18):
in anyway. She's you know, sure every small child doing
a great job in this movie. But I didn't think
that that was kind of a you know, I don't
think that that would currently happen. Sure so often the
comments game, I don't love it. Uh, here's another thing
I didn't love again in this movie, where I do

(01:08:40):
think there's a lot to love. Um, it's a very
white movie, as as per most movies. I think the
only woman of color we meet is Linda, the bereavement
liaison or whatever her job title is. To me, she
felt as though she was presented as a bit of
a like bitchy obs to goal type because it's like, yeah,

(01:09:02):
I think so her that the character has to sneak
past to get dead Grandpa out of the hospital, and
she's kind of presented as an obstacle and things kind
of there's a conversation between her and Richard that quickly escalates,
and to me, it's because like he's being unreasonable and
like trying to beat this like entitled white guy who

(01:09:25):
wants to bend the rules and thinks the rules don't
apply to him, and she's like, no, that's not how
we do things. There are you know, rules and laws
we have to abide by. Um. So I'm like on
her side during that scene, but I think the movie
frames her a bit more again as an obstacle. I
agree with that you're saying. I just think that that's
maybe not to get to the great scene where they

(01:09:47):
smuggle a corpse out of the hospital. I feel like
it's not the best writing in the movie. To like,
I feel like there's almost a little bit of like, alright,
we can't just have them take a corpse. We have
to do something. And so I feel like the way
that her character acts and I will. I'm kind of
curious if that part was written with a gender in

(01:10:08):
mind when it was done. I could see that part
being played by almost anybody. But the way that that
character talks to someone whose father has just died doesn't
seem very realistic. Where I agree that Richard is being entitled,
but like, I mean, that's not how people talk to
someone who just found out that their father overdosed on heroin.

(01:10:31):
Like so in general, I was like, I don't I
don't think that that scene was in a very grounded movie.
That that scene and the cops scene, you're just like,
all right, I don't really, this doesn't seem like a
person who exists, but whatever. Yeah, but I mean, yeah,
it is an extremely white movie. We're spending the whole

(01:10:51):
time with this white family and then which just leads
to the only people of color being you know, in
very small roles or used you know, in the background,
where there are some girls of color in the pageant,
but we don't know who they are, we don't know
what they're doing. They're just you know, and there's people
at the page but it's just background, which is also

(01:11:12):
kind of inherent to this like wave of India aesthetic
movies that came out in the two thousand's. It's all
about white families, you know. And I think that the
revelation was that there was acoustic music and that the
white families weren't always rich. But it wasn't like and

(01:11:35):
the movies were too long. Not this one, but a
lot of them. So it was just kind of like
that thing we talked about all the time where it's
like the smallest step out of the norm for a
comedy and they're like, well, wait, wait, wait, wait, the
white people are they're not millionaires, and we're supposed to
be like we did it, you know. Yeah, yeah, so

(01:11:56):
for sure. Oh I'm forgetting about Miss California. Oh yeah,
Miss California Frozen Yogurt icon Miss California um is also
a woman of Color miss icon and Froyo Officion Froyo
icon um also feminist icon. Kirby the guy who puts
all of in the system after they were four minutes

(01:12:16):
late to register. He was I also think that they
made the woman, I don't remember the name of the character,
the woman who ran the pageant. I'm saying pageant official Jenkins.
She was written full shrew. Uh. There was No, that
was another character that you're just like, Okay, this is
I under we only have twenty minutes left, but this

(01:12:37):
is a bit, you know. But then to kind of
contrast that, we get feminist icon stage manager lady. Yeah,
she cracked. She was like, yeah, maybe pageants aren't good. Um,
one last thing I wanted to just touch on, and
I don't know why. I like, this is a thing

(01:12:58):
I have fixated on. So the course of the podcast,
but I'm always noticing women's relationship to cars and driving. Yes,
I had this too. Yes, So there is believe it
or not, folks, there's a stereotype out there on the
streets that women be bad at driving. It comes from me,

(01:13:20):
It comes if you. You invented, started it, you started.
I suck a driver. I not to brag or anything.
Good driver, but I'm an incredible driver, thank you so much,
and I have at different points in my life made
a career out of it. Hooters delivery girl. Yes, I
was a Hooters delivery driver. Anyway, So we see the

(01:13:43):
mom not being able to drive these stick shift But okay,
that didn't super bug me because while the car was broken,
the car was broken. She's willing to try. We also
don't see like the version of this stereotype where she
is like driving super recklessly and like causing like a

(01:14:04):
trail of destruction in her path or anything like that,
because we see that in a few movies where like
some like this oblivious like a woman is just like
oblivious when she's behind the wheel of a car and
it's just and clueless. Not that sharing right right. I
was like wait what yeah, and clueless? Um we get
something like that in Cameron Diaz's character in My Best Wedding,

(01:14:26):
Like we see this um now and again, So we
don't see that version of this stereotype. And also like
I don't know, I tried to learn how to drive
a stick shift must also could not learn. So I'm like, okay,
it is like one of the few things we learned
about her character is that she can't drive a stick

(01:14:47):
and it's like, oh god, the fact that we have
to cling to that piece of information. But that also
I kind of like how that ended up too, where
like she makes an attempt to drive and the clutch
isn't working, and like Richard just like, well you just
go to like press down on the clutch and you
just got it. Has to be on the floor, and
she's like, it is on the floor, right, And then

(01:15:09):
when they switch and he's trying it, she's like just
pushed down hard, like she's sort of and then like earlier,
she's like, you know, I should try I can drive.
I'll try to drive. I gotta learn. You know you're
doing it. How hard can it be to Richard, who
she clearly hates, and I can't wait for them to
get divorced the end? Yeah, yeah, I just I mean

(01:15:30):
more Tony Colette. That's just it's it's that simple, more
Tony Culette. And we haven't really talked that much about
Paul Daniel. I like, I don't know, I like his character.
I feel like it's a good expansion on the like
broody teen boy character in a way that I guess
this just applies to every character, like every character no

(01:15:53):
matter how because it's like to an extent, Dwayne on
paper sounds a little silly where he is very determined
to get into the Air Force Academy, and you can
also sort of see in that way is that his
dad's logic has affected him of like he is trying
to be a winner. He doesn't like his dad, but
it's still you know, parents funk with your head. It's

(01:16:14):
just Cannon. I also think I think he's his stepdad.
I think his step sorry, because Tony Clue had a
baby when she was twelve and then and then Greg
Kunner came into her life. But either way, you can
see that Richard's win or loser mentality has also kind
of taken seed in a different way with Dwayne, even

(01:16:34):
though even though he doesn't like him, that it's just
such a pervasive mentality and has a lot to do
with his masculinity. And I just like every character in
this family is dealt with with like really thoughtful empathy,
so that things that I feel like a lesser writer
and lesser movie could easily make that Paul Dano character

(01:16:57):
seemed really silly, but it doesn't. I don't know, just
I mean, and that's true with almost every character of
like you could make them into a caricature, or you
could like really give some insight into where they're coming from.
And it gets to that point where it's like that
set scene where he finds out he's color blind is devastating.
It's so it's so sad, and I like that even

(01:17:19):
when he basically, Paul Dano gets the thesis statement of
the movie where he says, like, you know, fuck beauty pageants.
Life is like one beauty contest after another, which is
even that Like he's right, and it's the thesis statement
of the movie. But it's so like teen boy with
a bowl cut, like he's just like it's such a man,
this sucks. And then you're just like, oh, shut up,

(01:17:42):
like you're right, but shut up. Like it's just so
well written. I love it. It's such a like a
fifteen year old boy way of saying that. He just
he says it like he's the first person to have
ever thought of it, Like it's just funny. Also like
I don't know if you had this thought, but I
was like, oh, man, Like if this character like starts
hanging out with like the wrong group of friends, or

(01:18:03):
if he like discovers Reddit he is an insuct, like
he will become an insult. Yeah he really. I hope that.
I hope I feel like he like the one like
the family relationship that I think will improve from this
movie is that like Frank and Dwayne will become like close. Yeah.

(01:18:24):
I think that Frank will be a good I think
that they have a lot to learn from each other,
and I'm happy for them. I hope they go they
go on a different road trip. Maybe Dwayne will also
end up studying Proust. He I mean, he's already into Nietzsche. Yeah,
those guys, you're like that, that's all the same guy

(01:18:46):
basically boring old guy as a job. European writers from
a different century than the one we're in. It seems
like they make sense as relatives. Yeah, me with do
you have anything else? I also didn't know. So Michael Aren't,
I mean, he's just he is interesting to me because he's, uh,

(01:19:07):
this has nothing to do with feminism. This is just
a like interesting. There is like such a well tracked
pattern of like screenwriter writing one really well received good
thing and then being offered Infinity money and they're then
they're writing blockbusters for the rest of their career. Where

(01:19:28):
Michael Aren't wrote Little Miss Sunshine. That was like his
first major release. It was a huge success and his
biggest writer writing credits since then Our Toy Story three.
He was the one that put Woody in the Incinerator.
He is a credited writer on The Force Awakens, and
so he's only really done like big movie since then,

(01:19:50):
and he'll sometimes rewrite big movies and the Hunger Games,
Catching Fire hung like really a brave He did some
work on Brave. Oh wow, how how brave of him.
He's very in with the Pixar's crew, it would seem,
and he's done. He the one thing. I mean, he's
done some indie stuff since then. But it's like, oh,
I hope that here's Michael Aren't. If you're listening, he's

(01:20:12):
our biggest fan. It seems like you have enough money
for now, and uh, make another fun movie for us
to watch. Thanks. Yes, Well that brings us to the
the directors, which This movie was co directed by a woman,
Valerie Ferris, along with Jonathan Dayton. They are a husband
wife directing duo. This was their first feature. They had

(01:20:36):
made a career of directing I think primarily music videos
before this. They did that like iconic Smashing Pumpkins Tonight
Tonight video. They directed a lot of Mr Shell. They're
they're cool. They did that news show where where I
mean the prem I didn't watch the show, and the
premise of it is annoying to me, but maybe it's good.

(01:20:56):
The new Netflix show where Paul Rudd is Twins, Oh,
is not even really on my radar. So that's I
think that that's fine. I don't know who. You never
know with these things. Um, but and we've kind of
touched on this before where it's like, Okay, if a
woman does get to like write or direct or code
direct or co write a movie, it's usually because like

(01:21:18):
she's a part of like a husband wife writing or
directing duo. Because I feel like, you know, the system
is such that no one wants to take a chance
on just a like one woman. Without a partner as
your creative partner, it's much less likely that anyone will
take a chance on you and hire you. Yeah, which

(01:21:38):
has been true since the beginning of movies, where like
some of the first female screenwriters, like they were extremely talented,
but they were able to get in on the ground
floor because of a position that their spouse held. So,
I mean, we don't know what the story is with
this directing couple. They're great, Like I like their stuff.
Maybe I mean, maybe they don't want to work separately.

(01:22:00):
I would be I would be interested to see. You know,
It's it's hard. I mean it's like, yeah, we just
don't know what her exact input was, but a Valerie
come on the cast and let us know. She's also
our biggest fan, and she's our other biggest fans, so
she's listening, so she's she's everyone involved in this movie listens.
Paul Danna used to come to the coffee shop that

(01:22:20):
I lived near. Oh no way. Yeah, And one time
Melissa Lozada Aliva, friend of the cast, was staying with
me and he she was like reading a book because
she's like that, she's reading a book at the coffee
shop whatever books, and and then Paul Dana was like,
that book's good, and she was like he was very exciting.

(01:22:41):
And then she ran back to my house and was like,
Paul Danna read a book. It was really really exciting stuff. Incredible,
Thank you. But yeah, I think that's all I had.
Do you have anything else? I think that's everything? Yeah. No,
I um, I really like this movie. But does it
pass the Betel test? It does, again, not as much

(01:23:02):
as you wouldn't necessarily think. I think it goes back
to the I want a stronger relationship between Olive and
Cheryl thing, and you do get some tender moments, you know,
you get that moment when they're in the hospital and
you know, she gives this whole speech about like we're
going to have a family meaning and you know, we
have to stick together and I just love you guys

(01:23:24):
so much. And then we get the Dwayne is like
writes on his little you know, notepad, like go hug mom,
I know, which is such a sweet older sibling thing
to do to You're just like, but what I really
want is more screen time between Olive and Cheryl and
for that relationship to be explored more, and for Cheryl

(01:23:47):
as a character to just be given more of an
interior life. And because there was room dedicated to all
the other characters at length. At length, I mean, it
would have been a real, like, I mean, a super
issue if we were not getting enough Olive on top
of that. But it's like, you know, the women in

(01:24:07):
this van are already out numbered. Don't short change one
of them unfortunately. Mean, yeah, I think the Bechtel test
problem this is this is actually a movie where I
feel like the Bechdel test is a very useful metric
to use, which isn't true for it but but for
this one, I think it is because it just it
it passes but but not as much as it should
given who's in it. I think the one the conversation

(01:24:29):
that I was really locked onto was um towards the end,
when Cheryl is like basically gives Alive an out if
she wants it. She's like, you know, if you sat
this one out because because she also I think senses
that Olive is apprehensive about competing, because she is looking
at the other girls and she's she knows that she
is she scared. There's that scene where she looks at

(01:24:52):
herself in the mirror. She's examining her body. She's wearing
the swimsuit. Why do we have to have little girls
parade around in swimsuits to be judged by pageant judges.
It's horrifying. But anyway, so like Cheryl's like, you know,
all of if you want to set this one out,
you can totally do that, but all of us like, no,
I'm competing. So that whole exchange was one that I

(01:25:13):
really enjoyed. And shall we rate it on our nipple scale?
We shall zero to five nipples based on its representation
of women. Even though I would give this movie like
I would give it a ten out of ten on
the rampometer. I would give it like a five out
of five on just like movies I love. But as

(01:25:33):
far as our nipple scale, I would I would go
down to maybe like it's three and a half or
maybe like an even like a three point to five
because even though the female characters we do get to know,
I really love them. I love Cheryl's character, even though

(01:25:54):
we're not given a whole lot of additional information about her,
just aside from her role in the movie as the mother,
just especially because like it's clearly established that she has
a job and we just don't find out what it
is that we don't know anything about her, and it
was frustrating. But even so I do, I do love

(01:26:15):
her character. I'm so on her side all of the
all of get it all of the time. Well that
brings me to all of who I also really love,
Like she's such a sweet little girl. And yeah, I
just this is a movie that I guess is about
a family unit that I think should give more focus

(01:26:37):
to the female characters and that relationship between those two
female characters, so them as individuals and them as a
like mother daughter dynamic. I would have loved to see
that explored more but even so, I think I'll go
with a three point five because it handles a lot
of other things well, as we've discussed the portrayal of

(01:26:57):
mental illness, the fact that we have of a queer character,
which by my point of view, and again, you know,
I might be coming in with some blind spots here,
but it felt to me like that was handled pretty responsibly.
And yeah, it's just as a sweet I love a
dark comedy, you know, I love I love that climactic

(01:27:21):
sequence when the entire family gets on stage, which is
like kind of signifies every character arc that we see,
even though again Cheryld isn't really given much of an arc.
All the other the men get to change, but the
woman stays pretty static throughout, but only because she's already
such a good mom. I don't know. Three and a

(01:27:42):
half nipples, um, I'll give one to Tony Colette, I
will give one to Abigail Breslin, I will give one
to the Volkswagen Bus, and I'll give my half nipple.
I'll give it to Uncle Fry. I'm going to give
this a three point five as well, for for much

(01:28:05):
the same reasons. I feel like there is an opportunity
for I mean, of all the male relationships we get
to explore in this movie, whether it be between I mean,
there was a moment where I was like, oh, yes,
every movie is about fathers and sons. When Alan Arkin
tells Greg Kenear like, I'm proud of you. You tried.
That's good. You're just like, Okay, I don't really care. Uh, Like,

(01:28:28):
you find out about that relationship, you find out a
little bit about, you know, the tension between Richard and Frank,
you find out about the tension between Dwayne and Richard,
Like you get a blossoming friendship between Frank and Dwayne,
and you just there's not that many versions of relationships
for women to have because there's only two and we
don't really get it. So that was a little disappointing.

(01:28:51):
And I feel like it's just kind of single male writer,
you know, culture of you know, they're they're writing what
they know and don't know how to make women talk
to each other at length, and so they just don't.
So that was a bummer. But I do I agree that.
I like that. I mean, Tony Collett can do a
lot with a little which I think she does, hear uh.

(01:29:13):
I like that she is the Breadwinner, like, I mean,
the frustrating thing is everything I know about her I like,
and I wish I knew more, and I wish that
the movie almost had like the confidence it has in
its male characters to allow her to fail a little
bit outside of her maternal role. But ultimately it is
a wonderful movie. A laugh too cried it's great. Olive

(01:29:36):
is a wonderful character. I feel like she would be
our friend as an adult. So I like she. She's
the best. I also think it's so I mean, it
is kind of nice to see demonstrated how pervasive beauty
pageant culture is. Where I feel like sometimes you get
the idea from media of like, oh, only you know

(01:29:59):
young women who have pageant families, or only young women
who look a certain way are interested in pageant culture,
but it it is so pervasive that it gets to
everyone one way or another, and all of you know
is in by no means a pageant pushing family, and
she still develops, you know, oh, I want to participate.

(01:30:21):
And I think that that's something that you don't really
see acknowledged a lot. So I liked I like that.
I like her. I want to know what she's like
when she's older, and yeah, this is the where's the sequel?
Where's that? Actually? You know what? I think that that
sounds good? And then when you would see it, you're like,
I actually don't want it, like just write a different
movie maybe, But yeah, I think it's a wonderful movie.

(01:30:43):
Three and a half nippies wished that there have been
more of the female relationship. But I'll give one a
tiny clip one Abigail Breslin, and one to the lady
who held Abigail Breslin's hand on the way to the state,
and then a half nipple to Alfred Molina, who should

(01:31:05):
have been in this movie. I wonder what he was
doing when he was up to I feel like Alfred
Millina should have been. He would have been. Really I
will I won't. I won't recast any of the family
because I feel like it is the perfect cast for
the family. But maybe if they made Alfred Molina in
the audience of the pageant as like a really intense
pageant parent, that would be great. Well, please and thank you,

(01:31:28):
let's recut the movie. Let's put him in there. In
two thousand and six. He was in the Da Vinci code,
she thought. But that's not even a good that's a
bad excuse. That's probably a better paycheck though. Listen, he's
got children, that's true anyways. But yeah, three and a
half nipples and in a lovely movie. Happy birthday, Caitlin.

(01:31:52):
Oh my gosh, thank you so much. Yeah, I am
so glad we we finally got around to talking about
this movie. Oh here's something we can plug. So we're
you know, our social media Twitter and Instagram. Follow us
there at Bechtel Cast. My actual birthday is on May seventeen. Hello,
I'm a tourist. Thank you so much. And on my birthday,

(01:32:13):
we are going to do just an Instagram live hang
out the two of us. Yes, it's gonna be fun,
a chill hang We're going to be encouraging donations to
your local food bank if you're able to donate, if
you're in a position to do that, and yeah, come
hang out with us. That's going to be at two
pm Pacific time, Sunday, May seventeen. And then in addition

(01:32:37):
to that, you can subscribe to our Matreon our may
tryon getting there's no better time, there's no better month.
There's literally no better month. And then of course our
merch can be found on t public dot com slash
the Bechtel Cast, where you can get all of your
merch needs. And I think that'll about do it. Yeah.

(01:32:58):
We cherish you, We hope that you're you're safe and
doing well, and we'll talk to you soon. We love you.
We all won the pageants. Oh my gosh, we all
won little Miss Sunshine. Wow, that was That is what
I would say. If I actually hadn't wanted the movie,
I'd be like, um, and then she wins. Yeah, bye

(01:33:20):
bye

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