Little Women with Debra DiGiovanni

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Jamie. We've got an episode coming up for everyone about
Little Women. Very excited. But first we wanted to tell
you about a tour we're taking in January. I believe it.
We were doing three cities to start January twenty second,
we'll be in San Francisco for s F Sketch Fest

(00:21):
at the Gateway Theater and we'renna be covering The Social
Network because we're covering kind of moody, broody, dark movies
on this tour. And wow, how appropriate that we're doing
the Social Network in San Francisco, the tech capital on purpose? Wait?
How smart of Then on January we will be in

(00:45):
New York City I ever heard of it for the
Brooklyn Podcast Festival at the Bellhouse. We're returning to the
Bellhouse and we'll be covering Black Swan. Wait, Caitlin, that
movie takes place in New York. The amount of foresight
have given this. And then on January will be in

(01:06):
Philadelphia at Good Good Comedy Theater, returning one of our
favorite places, and we'll be covering The Sixth Sense. Hold on,
where is that movie? It's incredible? Uh. You can get
more details and ticket links on our website at bechtelcast
dot com and click on the live tab. Uh and
I will also be doing a small tour of those

(01:26):
same cities solo in February, so go to those shows. Two.
Oh my gosh, where do people go to find information
about that? They'll also be listed on bechtelcast dot com
or you can go to Jamie loftus is Innocent dot com. Incredible. Well, yeah,
see you there everybody you don Oh and uh, one
last thing, I have a side pod ever heard of

(01:47):
it coming out on January onet. Uh. It's called Mayer
and Mensa. So it's based on I mean, kayl and
you were present for all all of the related trauma.
But it's about the eighteen months that I spent in
MENSA where I started by taking the test as a
joke and then ended up basically getting attempted red pills

(02:08):
by uh sort of sinister dark mens A Facebook group
and uh ended up going to Phoenix and getting yelled
at for three consecutive days. But it's about my experience,
and it's also about the history of i Q organizations
and kind of that sinister backstory. So if that's something
that you've seen me tweeting incessantly about for the last

(02:28):
year and a half and you're interested. It's called my
Ear in Mensa. You can find it on all of
your podcasting platforms, and I hope you'll listen. It was
a nightmare and uh if if you listen, it wouldn't
have been a waste of time. All right, That's all
I had to say. On the dodcast, the questions asked
if movies have women in them, are all their discussions

(02:52):
just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism? The
patriarchy zef invest start changing it with the cast. Hello
and welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante.
I'm Jamie Loftus. WHOA Sorry, Okay, I don't know something's
going on with me. My body has been really reacting

(03:12):
crazy ways to almost everything this past week. I'm so sorry. No,
it's it's exciting. It's exciting. I'm on the edge of
my seat. Who knows what will happen next? And that
conversation past the Bechtel test. Yeah, the fickleness of the
human body. It's a genderless discussion. Yeah, because what we
do here on this podcast is talk about the representation.

(03:36):
Oh my god, now I'm it's contagious. So also, I'm
so sorry it's contagious. You'll lose your ability to speak. Three,
the representation of women in film, not just women, also
women that are little big like little women women maybe
not as big as you would expect. They'll be big someday, sure,

(03:58):
I like, except for the one that dies. Of course,
spoiler alert, one never gets big. One's stays little in
our memories forever true. Anyway, So these women and sometimes
they're little, or what we talked about on the podcast,
using the Bechdel test or sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace

(04:19):
test as a jumping off point to initiate a larger conversation,
And that of course requires that to little little women
who have names, who have little names, little things, most
of them are nicknames. They must go my nicknames, and
they must speak to each other about something other than

(04:39):
a man named Lori. I know, and it is hard
not to. I understand why it's difficult to not talk
about Lorie. Sometimes I understand. Lori is my mom's name.
I know. I was thinking, just what's your mom's take
on Lorie? How is how do you she feel? He
is a reflection on the Loria community. You know, i'd
have to ask her. I don't I don't know. I

(05:01):
should have should have done my research. I'll text her
right now. Yes, I would love to hear. So. Yes,
we are talking about Little Women. We had to we
must the new ones about to drop. So we're talking
about the one from ninety four, directed by Jillian Armstrong.
That's the you know, the famous Winona writer Christian Bale.

(05:24):
Susan so Randon ever heard of her? Yes, Claire Dane, Yes,
Maeric Stoltz is in the movie. Kirsten Dunce is. Another
woman is in the movie, and we don't know who
she is, but we like her work in this movie.
Meg Meg, Yeah, I never saw her again, but she
is alive. Treney Alvarado, Yes she was. She was so talent.

(05:46):
Everyone in this movie so talented. Everyone in the new
movie is so talented, except for maybe Emma Watson, who's
who's American accent? Did you hear her American accent? It's
not great, It's like, and there's no excuse because is
doing is fine and Florence Pew's doing just fine. And
then Emma Watson's turned to speak and you're like, well,

(06:07):
maybe let's scale back the part, but she's she's nice.
These are my little takes anyways, little takes corner. We've
got a guest. She's the best, the best, first, the best.
She used a three time returning guest, Elite, the top
tier absolutely with Naomi and Caitlyn Gil good company and

(06:33):
you're always are one of our like holiday movie season guests.
He's true, isn't it? Because it's kind of love actually
and die harder, Oh my gosh. Now, and then a
woman does I mean obviously has a very Christmas vibe.
There's there's a couple of Christmases. It's true. Yeah, And
it's our dear friend, comedian Debra d g you Vanny, Hello,

(06:56):
welcome back, thank you for being I'm not supposed to
say guy anymore, am I? Oh? I know. I'm trying
to train myself out of that one is going to
be very difficult. There's been a couple of words in
two thousand nineteen where it's just like, oh, we're slowly
work It's interesting watching a word slowly just work its
way out of vernaculate and I'm with it. I'm I
totally accept that. But it's that's that one. It's a yeah,

(07:18):
you gotta catch yourself a couple of tags. Every once
in a while, I've been saying y'all more than I
thought I ever would. I've been saying humans like humans.
You know. It's it's that's a nice round way of
covering everybody. I like. I like gang gang gang teams,

(07:39):
a good coach, energytage well or whatever an ever mannard
energy to this stage in Western Pennsylvania where I'm from,
you say you's to be why O you and Z?

(08:00):
But then there's another version of it, Yn's which is
why I and Z? But what what's that for? Like
you ones? Oh? I like that. I'm trying to think
Canadian one. It reminds me of how I try to
say Christian. We are think Canadian were very big on dude.

(08:23):
Dude is a very and that is a genderless dude.
Is that? I think people think of it as a
masculine term, But it's in candidate's super not and it's
not d U d E. In Canada, it's d O
O D like we really hold the dude. I say
dude a lot. I get not proud of myself, but anyway,

(08:43):
it's good to be here. Yes, we thank you for
the genderless dude. Yeah, little dude, little dude, A little dude,
little Girlwig. Where were you on that one? So we
had thoughts, you had thoughts about this before we even started. Yes,
I don't agree with any of you. Okay, So what

(09:04):
is your history with Little Women? Little Women? I definitely
read it. I remember, you know, reading it, and you
know it's so funny. It's you know when there's just
a little snippet in time that just sticks with you.
Minus Friends, the show Friends, that's you know, it was
the nineties, that was I was a young woman that
was just really stuck with me. And the entire time,
I kept thinking of the episode where Joey and Ray Rachel, Yes,

(09:29):
I remember that died. I mean, it's that's all I
get think either. The whole time I was watching it,
I remember Joey being confused to about Joe and Marie
thinking Joe is a man and Lori is a woman. Yeah,
but that's what I can't think. I will say. I mean,
I love I loved the book. I did. I mean,

(09:49):
I haven't read it a long time. I was a
young girl when I read it. I loved it. I
was a little woman when I read it. But I
didn't love this version of the movie. And here's why
it wouldn't known a writer and I have always loved
Wenona writer and everything. This I couldn't. It was too precocious,
it was too like, I'm she ran everywhere and we
get it. Joe was a natural girl and blah blah.

(10:12):
I couldn't take it. I had to watch it in
like three parts because I couldn't say I was like
and Kristen Dunns too, as well as a child petulance.
But the movie itself is lovely. I just I didn't
love this version. I do love Susan Sarandon, but I
didn't love this version. But the new one. I am
jazzed for the new jazz for the new one. And then,
of course, honey, versions of this movie have they done several?

(10:34):
A lot? There was, Oh, I have a list. There
was the first one. I believe it's in nineteen thirty
three or four. Of course, of course, why would I
think anything? Um okay, so nineteen thirty three. That one
is Katherine Hepburn playing Joe. There's one in nine that

(10:55):
was a big one. June Allison, Margaret o Brian, Elizabeth Taylor,
Jane isn't it. I should watch one of the old
ones maybe, seriously, that sounds fun. I've seen I think
I've seen the nine nine with Elizabeth, but and then
the one. Then there was a mini series that came
out last year, right, Yeah, was not received maybe very well,

(11:18):
it was it was a modern what about Kate? Wasn't
Kate winslettin something? No, I'm making it. She's been in
every other period piece, but this probably she's been. It's
been a so that's just the times it's been movies.
It's been a TV series in ninety nineteen, seventy nine,
seventy eight, in two thousand and seventeen, and an anime

(11:38):
in seven. So there's infinity adaptations of this book. But
that is a lot for one story. I mean it
really is. Yeah, I mean it's an American class, it's
an American classic. It's an American town, which is an Yes,
I mean, there's no denying. It makes me cry every time.

(12:00):
I know. I'm very excited for the new one. I
I enjoyed this one. I read Little Women as a
little woman as well. Um they had like they had
like a promotion. Our local newspaper was like selling copies
for like two dollars, and they were these beautiful, like
hardcover copies of all these classic books. So I got
Little Women. I remember liking it, but not liking in

(12:23):
the second half, which I still feel basically the same
way about. I was like just going back through like
the adaptation changes. They trimmed a lot of the fat
for this movie, because there's a lot of the way
that Joe's character lands in the book. I remember just
being like, really, and they avoid a lot of stuff
in this movie that I appreciated. I don't think I

(12:44):
had seen this adaptation with Winona Writer. I think once
and I thought it was boring and long, and this
time I thought it was just a little boring in long.
But I liked it, and I cry, yeah, yeah, yeah,
I just I just I just remember as a little
girl reading and being so mad that Joe Lloyd didn't
end up together like that. I was so angry, like

(13:06):
I have a lot of theories and then also some
context about all this, the Louisa May Louisa my Alcott
has I'm so excited for Context Corner today because it
is fascinating. Louisa May Alcott really couldn't give a shit
about her fans, which is kind of funny. My history
is that I had only seen this movie for the

(13:29):
first time like two years ago, another one that I
was like, oh, we'll cover it eventually, so I'll just
like watch it and like have it in my brain space.
And I remember thinking, like, Wow, this is like far
more of a feminist text than I was expecting for
something that was adapted from something that was written in
the nineteenth century. Yeah, so that was I was like,
I wonder, like, how much of that of the feminism

(13:53):
we see in this adaptation is actually in the book.
So I started reading the book about two weeks ago.
I got three quarters of the way through, so sorry, fans,
I haven't finished it. I don't know what happens at
the end, but I did read a large chunk of it,
and there's like a kind of feminist speeches that will happen,

(14:13):
or like monologues in the movie that are not in
the book. But I would argue that there's a version
of feminism in in the book for its time. There
definitely is there. I mean, yeah, I guess I'll just
save it for Louise as context Carus. She's so interesting.
But there's a whole chapter in that book on like
sleep training a baby. Did you get to that chapter? Oh?

(14:37):
I remember that very clearly and going to my mom
and being like what is this And then she was
just like, maybe skip it. I don't. I think it's
like Mega's like sleep training her babies and there's so
much attention to detail. I got how she did it.
I got to the chapter where she was like, I
can't wait to be a really really good housewife and

(14:58):
then like she has difficulty executing that, and like she
has a hard time being so her husband's a piece
of garb. He's awful. Made him much nicer in this
A little in this yeah much? But I mean I
haven't read the book. I would say almost forty years
I haven't. No, probably like thirty five years. I haven't
read it. So Beth still dies kicks that every time

(15:22):
everything changed that if this time Beth. But I really
I like this movie a lot. Yeah, I don't know,
I really like it. Christian Bale is fabulous in this movie.
He is. He's quite good. I'm excited to see Timothy
Shell and I play the same part that Christian band.
I could already like, I could already see him doing
it like even like in like like just from seeing

(15:44):
previews like already facial expressions, and I was like, oh, yeah, yeah,
this is that's seeing the trailer. I can't wait to
see Joe dump him. He's not going to take it. Well,
he never takes he doesn't take it well, well you
know what I mean. He does that really good. And
this and this one I think Christian Bale picks up
a backpack really like and he's like, I'm going to Europe.

(16:07):
You're like, good for you, asshole. Okay, So should I
dive into the recap? Yeah? Alright? So it is Civil
War era New England. I think they're in conquered Massachusetts, Massachusetts. Baby.
We meet at pond. We meet the March family. They've
fallen on hard times, but they also live in a

(16:30):
very large house and have a servant, so sure, um.
Joe March is one on a writer's character. She's our narrator.
She is a writer. She has an older sister Meg,
a younger sister Beth that's Claire Danes, and then little
Amy is Kirsten Dunce, and their mother Marmie. Marmie So

(16:56):
that's the name for mom. Is that what it is. Yeah,
they call her Marmy Sick. But her actual name is
Abigail in the in this movie, not in the book.
They don't give her a name in the book. Um,
one of the one of the cool I really like
the writer of this movie, who's also producing the new movie, yes,
which is and she's Zoe Kasane's mom. Isn't that wild?

(17:19):
She also wrote Practical Magic, Yes, and she wrote Matilda. Okay,
So that's the March family. It's Christmas morning. Their neighbors,
the Hummel family, are poor German immigrants, and they don't
have really anything to eat. So the girls or the
little women bring their Christmas feasts to the Hummels and

(17:43):
their other neighbors. An owner gentleman named Mr Lawrence and
his grandson, Christian Bale. Notice this. Uh, they noticed this
generous deed that the March family does. And let's see
Joe and meg Um. I mean this, there's kind of

(18:03):
like there's not a streamlined plot. It's just a bunch
of like little vignettes. We see them. They're all they've
like contribute to this little newspaper that they make. They
dress up as men and like give themselves fake names.
Then Joe and Meg get invited to a ball or something,
a debutante party. I don't even know. Yeah, there's the

(18:24):
scene where Joe accidentally burns Meg's hair off. Uh. And
then at the ball, Joe runs into Christian Bale, who
goes by Lorie even though his name is Theodore Lawrence
but also sometimes she calls him Teddy. Yeah so, but
they become friends, and soon he's friends with the whole

(18:45):
March family. And we also meet Laurie's tutor, John Brooke,
who who will later marry User Alert. He's played by
Eric Stoltz. And then we meet Aunt March. She is
there rich great aunt who Joe like works for and
reads to. Uh. There's a line incident with Amy at school,

(19:08):
Lori's hanging out with all of them, and then Meg
and Joe go to the theater with him and John Brooke,
and that upsets Amy because she wants to go to
the theater too, so out of spite, she burns Joe's manuscript. Wow,
I would cry, that doesn't equal at all, Like, that's
not even remotely on a level. But Amy, it's a

(19:31):
child's child, a little little little um and she does apologize, right,
but oh, boy, You're like, I mean I felt that,
just like yeah, and like that kind of sibling rage.
There's no rage like oh my god. So Joe's like,

(19:54):
I'm never talking to you again. But then Amy falls
through some thin ice and Joe's like, well, I guess
I can't hate my sister who almost died. So they
make up, and then the family gets word that their father,
who is away fighting in the Civil War, has been
wounded and is in a hospital in Washington, d C.
So John Brooke, who is in love with Meg, offers

(20:16):
to escort Marmie there, and Joe chops off her hair
and sells it to help Marmy pay her way to Washington,
making her video Baldest Woman in Trying exactly uh. And
then she also sells one of her stories not long
after that, so now she's a real author and the
Little Women, well, Marmy is away, the Little Women are

(20:37):
trying to get by, and then Beth goes to help
the Humble family, but their baby is sick with scarlet
fever and gets Beth sick as well, and it seems
like she might die, but then she pulls through just
in time for Christmas, just never Christmas, which is when
their father returns home in this big Christmas miracle surprise.

(21:00):
Everyone's happy. Then we cut to four years later, which
is at this point in the book where the original
book stops and the sequel to the book starts. So
the second half of a Little Woman is actually called
Good Wives. Um, and that's why the second half of
the movie is maybe not so good. And if I'm
not mistaken, is there another sequel called like Joe's Boys

(21:24):
tacked on that can't I don't know. If I don't
think that's included in the Little Women, I'm pretty sure
it's Little Women is like all the fun parts that
people remember Good Wives, which is all the sucky parts,
and Beth dies, which is a pucky part but a
memorable second part. And Luisa Alcott like completely denounced the
second like Good Wives. She was like it wasn't good.

(21:45):
I needed yes, I read money. We also hated it. Yeah,
So speaking of the Good Good Wives, the Good Wives,
Meg marries John Brooke, Laurie proposes to Joe and she's like,
no way, Jose, we would be terrible spouses for each other.

(22:08):
And he's all but her and he runs off backpack
his jan sport backpack and he's like, I'm going to
be a musician. You're like, no, you're not right, and
then he isn't. And then Joe decides to go to
New York to pursue her writing more seriously, and there
she meets Friedrich Bear played by Gabriel Burne. Yeah, he's yeah,

(22:33):
he's very he's very handsome. He I was like, I
was also like forty years older than her, a lot
older than her, and the king of nagging. He's just
he's like, you're writing. And then he's like, I'm so sorry.
And then four days later he's like, but seriously, your
writing is bad. And then she was like, could you not? Yeah,

(22:54):
but I was getting some strong Alfred Molina vibes, so
I could have easily been easily been off. Definitely in
the same little path he had to have. They might
be friends in life, right and like they had. He
had to have been on from Ireland, I believe, and
neighbors neighbors. It's like being like, you know, Arizona neighbors

(23:17):
basically is uh so, Joe has been struggling to get
anything published, but he's like he encourages her to write
from the heart because she's writing stories about like vampires
and gore and stuff, and he's like, but none of
you is in these stories. So then she's like, okay, fine,
I'll write from what I know. But before that they

(23:38):
kissed a little bit. And then also in Europe, Lori
is drunk now and he is trying to get with Amy,
who is a little bit older of a little woman. She's, yeah,
she's seventeen in this in the back half, which is
what in the Civil War, that's basically thirty five. True,
you don't live as long. And then Beth's health takes

(24:01):
a turn for the worst, so Joe goes back, but
she's been she's been frail the whole time. Third Days,
I think speaks maybe fourteen words and doesn't get a lot.
She really doesn't historic. Beth never gets much in the
book either. I think she's like intentionally underwritten to be
more of a godlike ascension because you're just you don't

(24:22):
learn about anything about she likes you's. She even in
her death scene with Joe, kind of also cops to
being a poorly written character, which she's like, you all
had goals, and I just sort of like it's true.
It's a very sad speech, not in like emotionally, just
like like you never even sort of grew up or tried.

(24:45):
You're like, okay, bawling. Yeahs devastating. It's like I don't
really care about this character, and yet here I am
ugly crying by myself in my room. So sad. So
she dies and Joe asks Lorie, who is still in Europe,

(25:07):
to return home to be with the March family during
this difficult time. So Laurie shows up and he's like, hey, Joe,
let me introduce you to my his wife, your sister Amy,
And she's like, oh cool. Joe handles this gracefully. She
I would be sequely like seriously, I mean seriously recu

(25:29):
from from and then you married my best friend, and
I just like the love of her life. Like really,
here's my theory, I think. And I'm not the first
one to say this, but I'm pretty sure Joe is
a lesbian for sure. Yeah. So I like her getting
with Friedrich, which does happen at the end, and even

(25:50):
more so in the book, like the movie cuts off
where it's just like she's like, come be a teacher
at my school and then they kiss. But at the
end of the book, or maybe it's in the second sequel.
They like have children together. They have children and and
in the book she starts a school for boys boys. Yeah,
you're like, what that doesn't even make sense with the character. Yeah,

(26:12):
it's just she's not like for anyone who wants to
learn if you're a boy, a white boy. But yeah, no,
Joe's kind of a queer icon. Yeah in many ways. Yes, um,
but I know so. I think Fredrick in this movie
is her beard. Maybe not sure. Anyway, they get together,
and this is also when Joe has she's written about

(26:36):
her life and her sisters and submitted it and Freedrick's
like he helps her get it published and then he
like drops off a galley of the book or something
I don't know, and she's like, oh hey, let's be
it again. He's like, didn't you marry someone though, And
she's like, no, I'm not married. He's like, okay, let's kiss.
And then that is the end of the movie. He's

(26:58):
like walking away with a little bindle, Like this is
rather dramatic. It's nothing literally, like that's all he has.
My hands are empty except for my little bendle and
and the love in my heart Caitlin. I mean, weddings
aren't for Joe, but guess who they are for Meg,

(27:19):
Meg and eventually Amy as well. Which brings me to
what I wanted to bring up naturally, which is talking
about Zola. Meg and Amy wish they could use this.
Zola makes wedding planning easier and less stressful, with wedding websites, registry, invites,
and a guestless manager all in one place. They could

(27:40):
have invited all of conquered, that's true, and they couldn't
because they didn't have access to Zola. It has free
wedding website designs, hundreds of gorgeous designs for every style.
You can create your site in minutes with a custom
you are l and password protection meg uh. You can
also get an online rs v P page, or guests

(28:01):
can shop your registry right on your site. And speaking
of that registry that you know the little women again,
they there's so much talk about how they've fallen on
hard times and they wish they could have art supplies
and yarn whatever. Beth is dying of registry. The little
women wanted a bunch of stuff and if they had

(28:22):
just had Zola, they could have added it. To their registry,
and Lori's uncle could have just hooked it up, or grandfather,
grandfather's grandfather could have just you know, been like, here
you go. He gives them a piano for crying out loud.
But anyway, Zola has the highest rated registry of all
time and strikes saying no. You can register for gifts, experiences,

(28:46):
and honeymoon funds. Oh, that's great, That's what I would want.
You can add gifts from other stores. You can sink
with existing registries. I was on zola dot com checking
out what's available, and I was just shopping away because
you know, women be shopping. I was truly like, Wow,
I wish I was getting married right now, so I

(29:07):
could like set up a registrate and get all the
awesome stuff. I would put a piano and a cure
for my sister's illness on my word, registrate. That's wonderful.
Plus with Zola you get beautiful, affordable invites and paper.
You can shop the whole paper suite at Zola from
Save the Dates, two invites, and thank You's all designed
to match your wedding site. You can customize it with

(29:28):
your own photos, which did exist during the Civil War,
so they could have used that used wording and more.
They'll help you collect addresses and track online rs vps
with their free guest list manager, and they'll address your
envelopes for free. That's amazing. Zola has helped Caitlin one
million couples get married, and they'll help you too. That's

(29:50):
a weirdly direction to you, but they will help the
grand you as well. Beautiful. So sign up at zola
dot com slash TBC to day to get your free
personalized paper sample. Then use code save fifty and get
fifty percent off. You're saved the dates. That's Zola dot

(30:10):
com slash TBC and use promo code save fifty. All right,
let's let's get back to the Little Women, shall we.
I just had to get that out of my system
and now we can talk about Joe. Okay, let's do it. Okay,
So what a treat? Where to start? Where to start? Indeed,
should we start with a little context on this story?

(30:33):
I think that's a good idea, And Caitlin, I know
you have some context as well. So I didn't know
a lot about the history of the writing of this book,
or about Louise am Alcott as a person, but it's
all very interesting. There's a lot going on. So this
is auto fiction basically, like Louise my Alcoot grew up

(30:53):
in Conquered with three sisters. I mean, the father stuff
is kind of written out of little women. The father
stuff in Louise ma Alcott's life is bananas. It's a lot, um.
But she has three sisters. One of them died at
twenty two, not from uh what scarlett fever. No from
What is speculated now is that she had severe anxiety

(31:14):
and starved herself to death. There was like it was
very dark and very sad. Uh, which has stuff to
do with the father. So unfortunate. Okay, So the father
who Louisa May Alcott stands for her entire life, she
never really denounces him. She admires him a lot. They
were very close. And Louisa May Alcott died two days

(31:35):
after her dad passed and they had like the same birthday.
It was a whole lot of stuff. But her her
dad was Transcendentalist, which was a movement around this time,
hyper religious, and it was like a lot of very
very famous writers were associated with it. Henry David Thurreau
was involved. Um, who is the other Ralph Waldo Emerson

(31:57):
is involved. All these famous New England writers of the
time time were her mentors as she was growing up,
But it was her dad was a zealot for sure.
He did some good things, he like invented new teaching techniques,
but he also forced veganism on his family, which is
you know, in theory great Civil War times really not
called your family is malnourished and they were like starving. Um.

(32:22):
So he you know, I was on the right track,
but maybe went a little too hard and I'll remember
his family. Uh. He also didn't like and this is
kind of alluded to in a scene that's not in
the book. He wouldn't allow them to wear wool or silk,
basically any basicthing but linen. I think, yeah, so, which
is also hard because they didn't have a lot of

(32:43):
money and so they were only allowed to wear one fabric,
so they also didn't really have anything to wear in
addition to really having nothing to eat. So he was
he was an intense Scott. He would leave for years
at a time and leave her mother to raise the
for little women on her own, which I think is

(33:03):
what is supposed to be maybe happening in in little women.
But it's like the dead would just bail for long
amounts of time to try to start up a religious
camp and would blow all the family's money putting it
into these religious sites, and then he wouldn't have any
money to feed or clothe his family. And even if
he didn't, he wouldn't So it was just it was
not a good situation. They were also abolitionists. They were

(33:27):
that's rights was like, which is great. Uh, they were
they were abolitionists. And their house was a stop on
the underground railroad, so they like Harbord fleeing slaves to
try to get them to they were I mean, they
were vegan in they were that it killed them. They

(33:49):
were so ok it nearly killed it was so yeah. No,
they weren't fucking around. They were uh and and um
the and and like her, I mean, her father was
always very supportive of her writing career. Her mother was
one of the first paid social workers in the state
of Massachusetts. Ever, so a good but bizarre family dynamic.

(34:12):
So basically Louise may Alcott is Joe Um in the books,
which tracks on everything down to um. Well, I mean
it's got you know, queer theory is in its infancy.
It might it might still not, it might even be born,
not even be born um at the time of this.
But Louise May Alcott, unlike Joe, who she's sort of

(34:35):
due to I think publishing notes, was told like, you
gotta get Joe married. You gotta Also the fans, like
wrote in after the first book, that she had to
marry Laurie. They were like, make Joe get married, and
and Louise Malcott was like, well, I like, I guess
that she had to for whatever reason, she had to
get Joe married, but she refused to give people the

(34:56):
satisfaction of making it Laurie, which rules exactly um. But
but she never got married. There's some good quotes from her.
She she identified as a life lung spinster um. And
she said this was in an interview with Louise Chandler
Moulton we all know and loves. She said quote, I

(35:20):
am more than half persuaded that I'm a man's soul
put by some freak of nature into a woman's body,
because I have fallen in love with so many pretty
girls and never wants the least bit with any man.
So it's it's mired in you know, the vernacular of
the time, but she was like fairly open about it.
She had she had an affair with a young Polish

(35:41):
man who I guess she based Laurie on at one point.
But there's not a ton known about her personal life
except that she never got married, never had a desire to,
and she really did not like writing the women. It
was the thing she was the least proud of. Um,
sort of like Joe, which I thought was interesting, where
Joe was writing all these kind of like waggy and

(36:03):
fantasy stories, which Louisa may Alcott also did under fake names,
and Joe, is you know enough? Men are like just
write down your like, just right now, what happened? Your
sister died right right about that, And I think a
similar suggestion was made to Louisa may Alcott and then
I ended up being this gigantic thing. Um. But but

(36:24):
she was never really passionate about writing about herself. She
just wanted to write about the stuff that wanted to
write about. Yeah, I think that that's the primer on
covers what I had to all Right, Yeah, she's she's
a very interesting person. I wish that we knew more
about her personal life. She was she was a little
bit cranky. Uh, she didn't care for her fans, which

(36:47):
is which is a mood. You know, that's a that's
definitely a decision. But you know, very talented, ardent, feminist, abolitionist,
on on the right side of history with pretty much
every social issue you could be on the right side
at that time. So we love her, we love Oh wait,
oh wait. The last thing I wanted to say was,

(37:08):
for some reason, they did document her last words, and
very funny. She died of some complications student meningitis, and
her last words were is it not meningitis? And those
are the last and then she just mid diagnosis or something.
I don't know I was. I just thought that that

(37:30):
was very funny. I was like, wow, move over, Steve Jobs.
You know, is it not meningitis? Has logged in? Incredible,
very cool. So, because Joe is so closely modeled after
the author, let's maybe start with Joe talking about Joe.
I love I love Joe too, but um, one of

(37:54):
the things that I noticed on my first watch of
this movie and then obviously again watching it through the
lens for the podcast, is I was like, oh, there
there are all these feminist monologues that again don't really
take place in the book, but there's like the foundations
of them are there. And then the screenwriter, Robbins Swigered

(38:17):
just kind of modernized what Louisa may Alcott was doing.
And so we get different bits of dialogue or monologues
where I think the first one is, um, Marmie is
talking about corsets and just sort of like the energy
levels of young women, and she says, uh, it is
my opinion that young girls are no different than boys

(38:39):
in their need for exertion. Feminine weakness and fainting spells
are the direct result of our confining young girls to
the house bent over their need to work in restrictive corsets.
And then mag noted kill joys, Like, Mom, was that necessary?
Like shut up? And then and then John Brooke's right
there and he's talking about Lori, and he's one hopes

(39:01):
that your girls would be a gentle thing influence, but
instead they're like getting him all riled off. And then
and She's like okay, John, Like she basically was like,
shut up, you dumb John. Sucks man, John, Like I
couldn't sucks too. I don't think Lorie is great. I
think Lorie at least has redeeming qualities. Want name one

(39:25):
thing that's good about John? Literally not nothing, and he's
way worse than the books too. In the books, he
like yells at Meg right after she has twins because
he's like, you're not paying attention to me, and then
Meg apologizes for two whole chapters. So you know, the
men don't fare well in this though, like that, there's

(39:46):
no we don't have any great examples of men in
this in the in the movie for sure, at least,
I mean maybe the closest thing is their father, who
barely gets screen time words, which is very old to
be a soldier. I'm am I wrong? Is that by
our standards? Yes? But I think in like Civil War
era they would just take anybody could have only been thirty.

(40:07):
We have no idea, like literally like that's just a
very grizzled yeah, and he said it sounds like he's
like modeled after Louis and Alcott's father, minus all the
cult stuff. But truly, though none of the guys are great.
Great isn't great, and even Friedrich is not great. They're
not great? Right, Yeah? Okay, So let me talk about

(40:29):
Lori for a moment because I like the fans always
like I just didn't Christian, but it was so cute.
That's what I can't. That's I mean, this is what's
the only right. But he is a character. Here's a
few examples of why he pretty much sucks. Um. He
shows up at that debutante party that Meg is at,
and she's like kind of surprised to see him. She's

(40:50):
been like dolled up by her rich friends, and she
covers her chest a little bit, and then he says like,
oh no, don't cover up. There might be one or
two gentlemen here who haven't seen your charm. Yes, And
then she was like having this is the only time
we make modest yeah, never has fun. I'm like, this
is the first time she's ever had fun in your room? Right?

(41:11):
And she expresses like she's like I like the way
I look like, I like what's and he and then
he makes fun of horror like truly yeah, yeah, he's
like a yeah, he's an asshole. And then what about
about telling a child he's going to kiss her? I
mean not now, I mean it was there was she

(41:31):
was a child, she was like seven or something. That
reminded me of I wrote down Taylor Lautner, Oh, and
Twilight when he's like, I'm going to make out with
this baby one day and you're like, oh, dear God,
why why are we bringing put to our brain? Yeah? Ever?
Why you? And it's supposed to be romantic, but if

(41:56):
he imprinted on Nasty King of not good kissing situations
in the movie, he loves yes, yes, yes, uh. He
loves to surprise kiss because he first does it. He
only he does it with Joe when he proposes to
her after she's been like I'm not really into this
and and he's like he kisses her and then she

(42:17):
pulls away, and then later he tries to kiss Amy.
He like pulls the little veil off of her face.
He's like, I'm reminded of a promise I made to
kiss you when you were a child. And then Taylor,
she like backs away and starts she like changes the
subject so he doesn't get to kiss her, but he
like very hard tries to surprise kiss her, and then
right after that he insults her painting. He's like, your

(42:40):
paintings are mediocre copies of another man's genius. And then
she's like, what are you in a band? And he's
not really. And then and then he turns himself around
and he's like, all right, fine, I'll go to London
and make myself worthy of you. And then the next
thing we know they're married. And it's just like, I
hate how that plays out. I guess it's expanded on

(43:02):
more in the book, but it's all but I don't remember. Yeah.
I also, I didn't get to that part. Didn't get there.
It's not even worth rehashing, I don't. I mean, it
was a choice to have him marry Amy. I'm like,
couldn't they couldn't. He just remained friends with the family. Also,
Louise May Alcott's youngest sister was a painter, and she

(43:23):
was like a sort of famous painter of her time.
She's like, yeah, sort of famous female painter. Good for her. Yeah,
at a time where you know, women weren't really artists
or authors. Women didn't so you know the fact that
you get these characters who have like these creative interests
in our and pursue them, and that comes with some
level of privilege of being able to pursue these interests.

(43:46):
But even so, like it was like okay, like writing
and it was kind of reserved for men at the time,
and in Joe's case, I mean, Joe doesn't really get
help from anybody, and like starting her writer writing career,
I think he gets like the Parisian bump or wherever
the fun you wanted to study painting, But like Joe
does it all by herself, Like she doesn't get help

(44:07):
from anybody at until Frederick comes along and he's like
with my editor friend right, and he's like, you have
to change everything you write about um, But I don't count.
The second half of the book is canon, Okay, So
she doesn't get any help right up until that point. Yes,
she's she's doing it on her own. I don't count.

(44:27):
Frederick is not a part of my head canon. Well,
I am going to talk about him a little bit.
I'm so sorry. Well we should talk about well we should,
we should talk about him. Yeah, complicated. The main thing
for me is that, like she has not expressed really
any romantic interest in any man up to this point,
and you know, anyone, and then suddenly this guy who's

(44:51):
like twenty or thirty years older than her comes along.
I think the actor is at least twenty years older
than when a writer. It's a little alarming to look
at uh, not to shame anyone who you know, and
this was this was standard of the time. Much older
men were marrying much younger Christian Bill. But I was
just like, Okay, She's like this whole time has been

(45:14):
like no, I'm not going to go and be someone's wife,
and like, no, I'm I care about my writing. That's
the only pursuit I care about. And then Friedrich comes
along and because he likes books, she's like, well, I
guess we can kiss. And I mean it was like
the cultural the cultural influence of the time in terms
of like Louisa may Alcott had no choice, her hand

(45:39):
was forced in terms of like they all had to
get married at the end because that wasn't even reflective
of her life when everything else is pretty much beat
for beat the same. But it's like she had to
like marry off her own avatar to some random which
doesn't seem very and she like she very vocally did
not want to marry Joe, have Joe be married, but

(46:00):
the fans and the publishers alike were like, no, she's
got to be married, big moment for marriage. Um, the
only I mean, it's kind of like I don't know,
I've I've read a lot of like criticism in either
direction on Joe's I mean, there's a ton written about
Joe and people are like, oh, I wonder if, like
greta girl is going to change that or leave that

(46:21):
out or like something Alige differently. But it's hard because
it's like if you it's like what you said, Kitl
and I was like, you're never really led to believe
that this is something that Joe wants out of life,
So it rings a little hollow, and all of a
sudden she does want it. But then also it's like
she's nineteen, and I think that it is nice to have.

(46:42):
Like what I like about her story arc with Frederick
included is that she you know, gets something that not
a lot of women of this time got, which is
like a relationship that is on her own terms and
like not having. And then from a class perspective, her
turning down Alor was a huge deal because that would
have had her and her entire family set for life.

(47:04):
So it was like not a small choice for her
to be like, I am going to marry for love.
So there is from like from having it all perspective
of like she waited, I mean who it's her life.
She's also not real, but like she waited until she
had at least a footing in her career, and she

(47:25):
was like pursuing what she wanted to pursue and took
the chances that she was wanting to take before choosing
someone to be in a relationship with, which I thought
is nice in it in its way where it's like
pie this guy. Sure, she becomes the most famous writer
ever and is traveling the world, but in terms of
like this time, it is kind of cool to be like, oh,
like and she found some of that. She really loves

(47:46):
who next her? But but aside from that, I mean,
he supports her career and there you know, it's like,
I don't know, it's a complicated one. She just definitely
did not marry for money, which is which is he
isn't French exactly, he has nothing. So that's you know,
that's of that time. That's you know, that's that would
be a crazy thing, right all right and right away

(48:07):
to turn on all right. Yeah, and the fact that
no one gives her ship for it to in her
family because it's like, but it does, I mean in
the movie it does. There is that moment where it's
kind of like, you know, she's like tying up blue ends,
like she like, you know, it was okay, you're all married,
you've got kids, she's dead, Okay, I'm gonna and then
she basically like okay, I gotta do something, and that
she just chased him. I feel like it was a

(48:28):
little like, well I gotta do something kind of thing. Yes,
someone author, but all right, I'm still nothing if I'm
not married is what the world tells her. So she's like,
all right, let's yeah. I was surprised, based on the
more feminist choices that are made in the adaptation, that
they also wouldn't have chose to leave Joe like single
and pursuing her writing, but ended the movie a little

(48:49):
earlier because it was like the movie even ends on
the shot of her getting like saying she'll get married,
and you're like, that wasn't the point of all this,
and that's what you want to leave us on, right,
we want to care about this bendle guy. Honestly to me,
like I had forgotten that aspect of the whole story.
I forgot that. I forgot that, and then when it
was I was like, oh, yes, she does end up me.

(49:11):
She does end up marrying, you know, which is very unbacked,
isn't it, Like I mean it's I mean, it's well,
I have I continue to have complicated feelings about this,
where it's like a romantic relationship with a man doesn't
make you not feminist if you're like a straight lady. Yes, Jamie,
that means for you, but like to me, it's more

(49:32):
about everything that had been previously established about the Joe
character gets sold out. I feel when she ends up
with it is it is, and it's worse than the
book to where we were told in the book that
it's Frederick's dream to run a school for boys, and
then Joe then uses her inheritance to manifest her husband's

(49:54):
dream and then does all that work. I think I'm
more upset just by hearing you talk about like the
actual truth story of of the book, like about she
must marry. That makes me the saddest and not even
you know, the movie or any adaptation. It's just so
that's what it was, especially because Louis doesn't get like
never married and never want and wanted, Fine, I'll marry her.

(50:14):
And that sucks, Yeah, yeah, it sucks, and and and
Louisa may Alcott all these things at the end that
we're having issues with. She also she also like it
seems like her hand was very much forced. So another
thing that carried from the book that I'm kind of
glad didn't make it to the movie. I think that
as far as adapting this book, the Screamer does a

(50:36):
really good job because she, like, like you were saying,
she articulates feminist thoughts that were kind of like, you know,
more embryos in the Louise may Alcott book and just
like states them in a way that doesn't feel jarring
or like out of time or anything. But in the
in the book, Um, I think that the reason we're
meant to believe that Joe gives up her dreams and

(50:58):
decides I'm going to get married all very quickly is
because of Beth's death. Um. And there's this little passage
that I found that I found very depressing. It goes
like this quote, Joe laid her wearied head down on
Beth's little brown hood, which no one had thought of
moving from the table where she left it. It must

(51:19):
have possessed some magic, for the submissive spirit of its
gentle owner seemed to enter into Joe. So Beth's ghost
made Joe want to get married to give up, which
was like, hello, Jamie, that happens to me all the time.
You just taken some submissive spirits. Submissive spirit really didn't

(51:43):
sit well. Also, that's kind of mean to Beth too.
You're like, can we just can we just say this?
And this is just out of nowhere. But it irked
me the entire time about how just everyone kept calling
Joe ugly like I couldn't, Like I was, that's your
only beauty when she got out her hair herself ugly

(52:05):
and like, I mean, we can and I know it's
a movie and blah blah, but we can all admit
one on a writer is anything but ugly. She is
a beautiful I mean, a little gammen feminine. Just I mean,
I can't every actor that's ever played is Joe is traditional,
e mentionally beautiful, which is kind of frustrating because I
think that, I mean, I think that's like a Hollywood

(52:26):
thing where because it would be neat if it was, like,
you know, less than typically beautiful woman playing it right
right now at least, And Luisa may Alcott was not
a conventionally beautiful woman and she's writing this part about
herself and it's just like, well, then cast that, but
people can anyway, but that just just jarring to hear it. Whatever.

(52:49):
And it's just like because they really made that, They've
really made that a part of were they tried to
make that a part of her character, you know what
I mean. It's like that's what she had overcome physical
unattracted this and people aren't buying. Yeah, we got to
take another quick break, but we'll come right back, and

(53:11):
we're back, and we're there's still so much. Well, continuing
on some of the feminist sentiments in the movie, I
have a few more. Amy gets in trouble at school
with the whole Lime debacle and not she doesn't have
twenty four limes scooters in her desk. I mean maybe

(53:31):
that's what happened in it was modernized. Yeah, So Amy's
teacher strikes Amy on the hands to punish her for
having all these lines. Everyone's in an uproar, and then
Amy says Mr Davis said it's as useful to educate
a woman as it is to educate a female cat.

(53:53):
And Joe is like, I'm going to fucking strangle that dude,
she's great, and then Marmie writes a letter to the
tacher withdrawing Amy from the school. So it's it's like,
my daughters will educate themselves or be homeschooled rather than
be taught by this, Like misogynist creep is the implication here, right, Yeah,

(54:14):
that was not that was a welt. That was yes
on tiny cares and dunce, how dare you. Then there's
a conversation kind of just about like the double standards
for men and women and they're sort of like perceptions
by society. Where this is after Meg has gone to
that coming out party of her friend. I think Sally

(54:36):
Moffatt is the name, and Joe is like, I don't
like people speculating about Lori and Meg as if they
are characters in some play, and Marmie is like, when
nothing provokes speculation more than the sight of a woman
enjoying herself. And there's like a really nice conversation that
follows that, and then um, Meg is like, why is

(54:57):
it that Lori made do Izzy likes and flirt and
tipple champagne, And Marmie's like, and no one thinks the
less of him? Well, I suppose for one practical reason,
Laurie is a man, and as such he may vote,
and hold property and pursue any profession he pleases, and
so he is not so easily demeaned. And then they
start talking about like, well, you know, who cares what
people think? And and Meg is like, well, I kind

(55:19):
of do, and then Marmie says, I only care what
you think of yourself if you feel your value lies
and being merely decorative. I fear that someday you might
find yourself believing that's all you really are. Time erodes
all such beauty, but what it cannot diminish is the
wonderful workings of your mind. So she's like saying, like,
don't just value yourself for how you look like it's

(55:41):
your it's your brain and your mind and your thoughts
and feelings that are important. I really and I like
that that conversation that Meg was given, that line of
dialogue being like, well but wait, and then that like
I don't know, I I like how distinct they are
from each other, and that like no one's perspective is

(56:01):
treated as lesser than or and no one's really punished
by the narrative for their perspective. Except of course Beth,
who is an angel who has killed Um and then
her spirit goes into goes into a hat at Joe
puts on, and then she you know, torpedoes her narrative.
But I thought that that scene was really cool. Uh.

(56:23):
And then there's one other major scene like this that
I took note of, which is like the should women vote?
Scene where a couple of times Joe is in New York.
There's like all these guys at this like a boarding
house that she's living in, and they're talking about should
women be able to vote? In Some guys like stinky right,

(56:44):
literally this pile of stinky dudes being like, should we
let women vote? What do you think? And You're like,
oh god, they probably have some influence. Yeah, And so
the conversation goes like this, Um, some guy is like
a constitution that denies the basic rights of citizenship to
women in black people? Uh. And another guy responds, well,
they just passed the fifteenth Amendment. They can vote. The

(57:07):
other guy responds, black men can vote. Someone else says like,
a lady has no need of suffrage if she has
a husband. And then a guy's like, if women are
a moral force, shouldn't they be able to like govern,
preach and testifying court. And then meanwhile, Joe is like
trying to speak up, but all these like men are
talking loudly and not giving her any space even though

(57:28):
she's like the only woman in the room who could
actually like offer, which is an experience all the time,
still every day. Um. And then freederch is like, hey, Joe,
what do you have to say? And she says, I
find it poor logic to say that because women are good,
women should vote. Men do not vote because they are good.
They vote because they are male. And women should vote

(57:50):
not because they are angels and men are animals, but
because we are human beings and citizens of this country.
So those were just a few examples of like the
feminist sentiments that I was surprised were in this movie.
Again based were it's supposed to be sat at the
time that it's supposed to be said, it's pretty, But

(58:12):
we read that it's because Robin Swikerd, the screenwriter who
adapted this. This is from an Atlantic article entitled The
Lie of Little Women from um. Sophie Gilbert writes, quote
Robin Swykerd, who wrote the screenplay, created virtually every line
of dialogue from scratch, saying that she had imagined what

(58:33):
Alcott might have written had she been quote freed of
the cultural restraints of her time. The results swerves from
the usual homie scene to offer a politically engaged drama
in which Marmie and Joe advocate for women's suffrage and
none of the marches were silk because it's produced using
slavery and child labor, males are Males are relegated to

(58:55):
the margins. The March household as a matriarchy presided over
by a few feminist and reformist crusader who emphasizes the
importance of education and moral character rather than interior decoration. Uh.
And then Swygert even names Marmi Abigail, which is Alcott's
mother's name end quote. Yes, uh yeah, I and she

(59:16):
does I think, like yeah, Robin Swiker does a really really,
really good job. And Gillian Armstrong as well, who I
didn't know a ton about. This is I think her
most famous movie that she made, her most mainstream movie,
So she's a famous Australian director. She also does a
ton of UM documentaries UM and a lot of her

(59:37):
recent work as documentaries. Her other most famous movie was
also adapted from an old as book UH called My
Brilliant Career, So that was in It was the first
Australian feature length film to be directed by a woman
for forty six years. Uh. So she's like a pioneer
in in uh film as well. So I think between

(59:58):
like Robin swaker It and Julian I'm strong, they they
got it unlock. Yeah, and it's like really cool that
all that stuff, you know, made it in and didn't
get like noted out of the movie, like I got
noted out of the book right right exactly. And then
I mean another thing I just really like both about

(01:00:18):
the book and the movie is that like and this
kind of manifests in a in a weird way that
you were talking about earlier, Deborah, but like Joe is
described as like being boyish and not conventionally attractive, but
she was often saying things like oh, like I wish
I wish I were a boy and like and that
can be you know, read a couple of different ways

(01:00:39):
where it's like, okay, like is this is this part
of maybe her possible queer identity or is she saying
something to the effect of like if I were a boy,
I would have like the freedoms and men have at
this time. But you know, I just I like the
like you see them dressing up as men several times.

(01:00:59):
You know, she's she's often just described as a tomboy,
and I thought that was cool, especially for a story
that takes place in a time when gender rules were
so rigid, yeah, even more than they are now. So
I kind of like, yeah, I like that. The movie
doesn't you know, like hamper itself down by getting more

(01:01:21):
specific with any of it either, just like opens it
up to more interpretations and like readings and makes it
more accessible to more people. So it's good. I'm training
the Oath and that scene, I mean, it's just worth
shouting out like that, the scene where Joe turns down
Laurie is like so good. Yeah, it's so good. I
love to watch it. I went back and I just

(01:01:43):
googled that scene and other adaptations of it because it's
just great to watch and like for like reasons we've
already talked about, but that seemed just like it sucks
me up. It's so exciting too, because that really happens
in any rom com, any sort of romantic movie. But
to have it just mean again, I know it's but
just disadaptation obviously, but just having the woman saying no

(01:02:06):
to the many, changing her mind at the end and
showing up in the rain, you know, and being like,
you see it was always like that never. It's just
it's pretty impressive. It's really cool. She was like, I
think of you as a brother, don't kiss me, like
and then and truly means it, And You're just like,
that's no, meant no, right, because normally in stories like

(01:02:29):
this you would see like the Lori character like wearing
her down until she finally submits. Instead he does that
to Amy, but at least with Joe, she's like she
probably really wasn't mad about the Amy she actually wanted.
I would be, well, I think, well, I mean, I
guess it's not you know, in the days of texting,
but like it would be weird to find out and

(01:02:51):
because I married your sister, oh, I mean the pigeon
never made it or whatever it was, to finding out
on Instagram, it would be really seriously, tell me, are
you kidding? I wasn't even invited. I'm literally my best friend.
That would be crazy, That would be a little crazy,
And I guess it would be strange. Although I do
you know anybody in your life that is married their
best friend's sister? I do know someone. I think that's

(01:03:14):
just a little weird because I don't know. But like,
I think we're possessive over our friends, aren't we a little?
I think a little bit. Yeah, I don't my best
friend out if I get Yeah, like if my like
cousin married like someone I did in high school, I'd
be like, you'd still be necessary. Really, I'm not mad.
There's still be that there's a slight factor. It's just like,

(01:03:35):
right a minute, Like for me, it's more about like
what do they have in commons? Like why are they sudden?
Why is he suddenly like? Because that is we could
say that that's Lorie's sort of redeeming characteristic that he
did like Joe so much because you know, not yes
exactly for the right reasons, that they just really truly

(01:03:57):
got each other and had fun and challenged each other.
There's a great joke during that scene when he's proposing.
She's like, no, we have such horrible tempers. He's like, no,
I can keep mine under control unless provoked. I laughed
out loud. But then you know, then he marries the
pretty little girl like he's supposed to and Amy and
Amy also it's like I think she's sort of given

(01:04:19):
some like first of all, she's kind of dunked on,
I think unfairly by him several times. You've brought up
a couple of them. But there's also Amy is about
to marry someone else, and it does seem to be
largely for financial reason, but like she mentioned several times,
which you like, dude, it's like eighteens, like seventy and

(01:04:40):
like this, but he wants to use that is one
of his Lorie did like I could give you everything
you wanted, so the same thing, and I just I
don't know, just like shaming her so that she into
dating him. Was like, well, this is like this criticism
is not coming from a place of caring. It's coming
from a place of horny nous and the and and

(01:05:02):
Amy like I feel like she's like sort of allowed
to stand up for herself. But then she ends up
marrying him anyways, where he's like, oh, well, your family
is so chill, and she's like, well, I don't want
to marry you because you think my family's chill. And
then he's like no, no, no, I like you. I
like you. I want to march, but I'll take it anyway.
I'll get anywhere I can get in there. I'll marry death,

(01:05:23):
dead body death, march. Um. Can we talk about Beth briefly? Beth?
I mean there's unfortunately we don't know that much like Piano,
she likes. Yes, she's very I think Beth is interesting.
I mean, there's been a lot of different reads on

(01:05:44):
Beth as well, which are like, I think some of
them have some strength to them, but for the most part,
it seems like Beth and um, Louise and Mailcott sister
who passed away at twenty two was literally named Elizabeth
and so she just called her Bath instead of Lizzie
in the book. So it's like pretty one to one
with how that character was adapted. But the way that

(01:06:05):
she's adapted in the movies I think is like kind
of worth discussing because she is such a like delicate feminine,
Like I think all the traditional feminine values of this
time are all represented in bad see not heard very
way and just that sort of like yeah, kind of
forgotten almost if you will, right, which is like kind

(01:06:28):
of I mean, she's surrounded by all these very strong personalities,
and she's like more reticent, she shy, she doesn't like
the spotlight and a and all this stuff, and she's
I think, kind of presented as like this feminine ideal
in a way. But then she dies. But it's like,
but it it was interesting of I was reading some
like takes on the character of like that's a statement

(01:06:49):
from Louis mal from the writers saying that, like this
type of femininity can't uphold for much longer or it's
growing less relevant. And these characters that are very strong
willed and challenging status quo is constantly like Joe and
like Marmie, are the ones that endure. And then the
sort of shrinking violet person exercise the ones that get

(01:07:14):
to run around a bit, right right, which Marmie says herself,
let the girls outside, Like what are we thinking? She
us fifteen from the movie starts, and then four years later, yeah, yeah,
she's very young, and I mean and but then it's
like you have to take it with a grain of salt,
because Louisa mail cut sister died very tragically at a

(01:07:37):
similar age, and it truly might just be a one
to one, but it is interesting. I think that she
is the least developed character of the Little Women, and
I mean I think probably that and maybe the scene
with Lori and Joe are like the two most remembered
things about this movie is of course turns on the
proposal and that died absolutely and the hair hair off

(01:08:02):
it's another one, but cutting your hair off to which
has nothing doing anything but like um, But yeah, I
don't know. I mean, there's not really that much to
say about Beth, unfortunately, but it is. It is interesting
the way that she's pretty consistently represented. I don't think
that there's really any made many different takes on Clordine
isn't given much to do except to I mean, it

(01:08:25):
must have been a chill shoot for her. She's mostly
lame and just having Susan Sarandon hold her hand, You're like, yeah,
I get, where's the check? That's great? Yeah. I wonder
if this new adaptation, the Greta Gerwig one will maybe
give us playing good question Eliza Scanlon, who I am

(01:08:46):
not familiar with here, but she plays Beth. Emma Watson's Meg,
so Sharonan is Joe and Florence Pugh is Amy. But
so that's Beth. We talked a little bit about Amy.
Meg is interesting. Jill Loftis my mother famously played Meg
in the Brocton High School adaptation of Little Women. My

(01:09:10):
mom Laurie played Lorie. No, that's not kid Um. I
like Meg, and I like what her character kind of
represents in the story because they like it's so, you know, rare,
especially in Louise may Alcot's time for women to be
the protagonist of the story at all, much less a
lot of different types of women who are constantly disagreeing

(01:09:33):
because their siblings, but they also have like a very
strong bond they love each other. And Meg, I think,
is like the representation in this very headstrong family of
someone who craves something a little more traditional. And I
thought it was cool to see, even though like when
I was little, I was like Meg go somewhere too.

(01:09:55):
But but it's like she she's clear about what she wants.
She wants a married life, she wants a family, and
no one gives her a ship for it. They're just
like Marmie's very supportive. She's just like, well, if that's
what you want, you know, do whatever you want. And
then when she's like, I want to marry this loser.
Marmie's like, I guess, whatever your your choice, like a
loser who says um over the mysteries of female life

(01:10:18):
there is drawn a veil best left undisturbed, basically meaning
I don't know what the women do, and I don't
I don't want to find it, and I'm not going
to look it up. So I mean, there's a lot
of talk in this movie, especially the first half, before
any of the women, the little women are married, about

(01:10:39):
getting married. There's all this talk about who they might marry.
Should you marry a rich man or is it okay
to marry a poor man? Will anyone ever want to
marry any of them? Will there be suitors for them?
At one point on March big fan of Aunt March,
love her, She's basically at March. Yeah. I love that

(01:10:59):
scene when Laurie's like, I think they're in France later
on and he's like, oh, Aunt March, you're looking well,
and she's like, I wish I could say the same,
like you look like shitri he does. He has like
a shitty little beer and that he's got the like
you know, but the undone sort of tuxedo, which is
a classic drunk, Yeah, he moved and trying the band,

(01:11:21):
and you're like, Aunt March is not having it. But
Aunt March is saying pretty early on in the movie
to Marmy the one hope this family has is for
Meg to marry well. And then Joe comes in and
Aunt March is like, and this one's entirely ruined her
disposition with books, so, you know, maybe not the feminist

(01:11:42):
icon we were all hoping for. But later Marmy and
Meg are talking about Meg marrying John Brooke and she's
and you know, Marmy saying like, oh, you know, I
would rather Meg that you marry for love and be
a poor man's wife than Mary for riches and lose
your self respect. So which I like. I like them.
I like the message of it. I just was the
poor man she chose wasn't a asshole. And then Joe

(01:12:06):
chimes in and says, well, why must we marry it all?
And it's like cool that you have that perspective from
a female character in this like nineteenth century story. But
then she goes and marries Frederick for no reason. It's frustrating,
but I mean, I'm happy for Meg, but there the

(01:12:28):
I mean there's just I have a small I hate
John's character so much, and he's so much worse in
the book. I have just a quick pull quote. So
this happens right after Meg gives birth. Right, she just
put her underwear back on after giving birth to and

(01:12:49):
then do you were? Meg's like, Marmy, I don't know
how you did it four times? And then John's like, well,
she didn't do it twice at once, Like shut up?
So annoying, but okay. So Mega is very recently given birth,
and John is mad because he is not getting as
much attention as literal babies. So John yells, quote, where's

(01:13:10):
the beef and vegetables I sent home? And the pudding
you promised? Alcott wrote that John was a mild man,
but he was human, explaining that a man can't be
expected to conduct himself properly when he's hungry. Um, let's
see there. Here's here's another passage quote. The poor man
was very uncomfortable, for the children had bereft him of

(01:13:30):
his wife. Home was merely a nursery, and the perpetual
hushing made him feel like a brutal intruder whenever he
entered the secret precincts of baby dumb um so, and
I guess like Alcott ends up being very sympathetic to
John of like, well, of course he's yelling at her.
She's breastfeeding two children all the time. You're like, that's
that's a great reason to not yell at her. She's

(01:13:53):
literally so busy. Um. But I don't, I don't know,
I get. Yeah, the men the milk care in this
movie are either not good role models or just basically
absent from the story, which is kind of right. I mean,
I didn't need more men around in this movie. Sure,

(01:14:13):
And like Friedrich, I wish had if he had kind
of taken it upon himself to be maybe like a
mentor to Joe and been like, let me help lift
you up as a like woman being a writer. But
the fact that he's like, I don't like these stories.
You should write different stories, and right, I felt because

(01:14:35):
I totally forgot everything that happened with Friedrich. And so
the first time when he criticizes her, and she's like
very taken it back and it's like that this is
my life's work, and he like immediately apologizes and it's
like I'm sorry that was out of line. I shouldn't
have said that. I'm like, Okay, I guess, let's see
where this goes. And then she sort of becomes receptive
to dating him after he apologizes to her, but then

(01:14:55):
he does it again and and it's like that's kind
of so an adaptation change that the screenwriter makes in
this movie is that she has Joe leave New York
shortly after she like cuts him off after he criticizes
her the second time and doubles down in the book,
Joe takes it very personally and stops writing. Uh, you know,

(01:15:18):
she like stops writing for a long time and then
only starts writing again when she's writing her memoirs, when
she starts writing Little Women. Basically, Um, So, the movie,
I mean tries to do some damage control around that,
but it's still just like there's also I think an
attempt to kind of have the perspective of the movie

(01:15:38):
to agree with Friedrich in the sense that like we
see Joe not necessarily really wanting to write these stories
but doing it because like that's what the newspapers want
or like that's what I think, and and suggesting that
she wishes she could write something else, but like no

(01:15:59):
one wants to hear girls stories or whatever, but like
I don't know, Like I've had male people men uh
that's what they're called to tell me. Like when I
was in grad school, like I had male professors be
like because I was writing like action comedies, and they're like,
but Caitlin, like are you sure you want to write these?

(01:16:20):
Like why don't you write something more personal? And I
was like, I don't want to, Like I'm writing the
things that I want to write, and it's to me
like it felt to me like that's what Joe was doing.
Like she was writing the things that she wanted to write,
and then at the persuasion of this like male mentor
of hers, she's like, Okay, fine, I'll write about yeah,

(01:16:42):
which really bugged me. But that's another thing directly pulled
from Alcott's life is like she was and she continued
to write her fantasy stories. I'm not many of which
I think are still in existence, but the stuff she
was actually passionate about, and I think she's kind of
used a little women into like bankroll her being able
to do stuff she actually wanted to do, but she

(01:17:03):
still had to write it under an assumed name, which
Joe also does she writes under a male name, Louisa
did as well. It's just like God, what a mess mess? Uh?
Does anyone have any other final thoughts? Um? I think
that an adaptation of Little Women for a story that
takes place literally during the Civil War should not have

(01:17:27):
one thousand white people yet seems like a very specific
and bizarre omission that any more modern adaptation should have included.
I mean, kind of, let's see what this the next
one is. I mean, you know, I was like, credit
card doesn't have a great track record white people, but
let's let's let's see. Let's see. That reminds me of

(01:17:49):
when we covered The Beguiled, that story that completely omits
a black character who is in the novel and then
and in the first movement and then the first move
V and then Sofia Coppola chooses to because she is
not black and doesn't understand how to write black characters,
decides to complete omit that character. Yes, I felt that

(01:18:12):
to where, especially because, like al Caught, her parents were abolitionists,
there were slaves fleeing to freedom passing through their house.
In fact, I read a story that she found one
such person, like hiding in an unused oven in her
house when she was like seven years old, so she

(01:18:33):
would have had interactions with black people and the fact
that they're omitted from the book, and then I also
not included in any adaptation. I very much understand why
that would be omitted from the book. I think that
that would be very very hard to get published. Um,
in the time that she read it. I don't understand
why it hasn't been included in future adaptations because it's basically,

(01:18:56):
uh biopic with different names. So it's like, if these
things were happening and we're a big part and she's
from an abolitionist family, like include that in a meaningful way,
like it is not disloyal to the source material, but
it's literally right there. Um, So that's yeah. It's always
weird to see a movie about the Civil War that
only has white people in it. And I think that

(01:19:19):
was my last thing. Yes, my last thing is that
the March family has many cats. Little son my cats
started mowing. Yeah, there's a there's little kittens, there's a
few adult cats. There's just and just a reminder to
everyone out there that cats do have eight nipples and

(01:19:40):
that's cat facts. With Caitlin and this household has dozens
and nipples living under one roof, one enormous roof, because
again they lived a huge house. The I love that narrative.
You're just like, we're so I mean, and it's like,
but if they include the actual Louisa may alcots out,

(01:20:02):
they're like, well, our dad's making us be vegan, but
we only have meat, so we're starving. The last thing
I wanted to say it was about adaptation stuff where
I think that, like, this is like the best adaptation
of this that I've seen, But there's also a list
in the New Republic of just like other ways that
the source material has been interpreted in very specific times.

(01:20:26):
And my favorite stupid one is in THEE. I don't
remember this, but this was like post war big capitalism boom, consume, consume, consume,
And so they add in a little women's shopping spree
scene where the Marchin sisters get a little bit of
coin and they go to town because women be a

(01:20:49):
shopping They get Aunt march just like writes them a
check and they're like, let's go shopping. Like and then
just which is a very stu I just I want
to see that scene. Yes, it's so out of place.
I want to see it. It's so extremely Yeah, I
think that's all I had. Yeah, no one else I

(01:21:11):
think it. No, that's good, will do it? Yeah? Well
does the movie pass the back to Tista? Does? Yeah?
They do talk about men a lot. They do talk
about men a lot, but a lot of daddy talk,
a lott of LORI talk heavily male, you know, dominated
in no one's conversation, not meningitis. That should be men

(01:21:37):
men more like yeah, more more like little women. Technically
it does pass the women right right, think about it.
But yeah, there are many scenes where you know, they're
talking about hair and dresses and you know, pretty traditionally
feminine things. But the baldest women is in charge. Rule works.

(01:21:59):
But then she was back out again. Yes, well she y.
I also like that she didn't keep that upkeep I
mean that day, so she wasn't going for a trim
every eight week. She had to grow back out. She
also like that she got sad for a minute and
then she That was really funny because they're like, are
you because that was like when Beth goes up to her,
it's like, are you sad? Because daddy got injured in
the war. She's like, no, my hair, and then the

(01:22:22):
next day she was like, actually, looks nice. I have
cried after so many haircuts. I also like that Beth
starts laughing. I was like, yeah, we don't care that
dad got injured in the war. Oh gosh, um, So
let's write it on our nipple scale to five nipples.
Based on the representation of women, I think I'd give

(01:22:45):
this like a three and a half or four, maybe
even because I don't even know how much we actually
talked about this during the discussion, but it is a
movie where almost all the main characters are women, very
female driven story. Women are the focus. Women's stories and
characters and their growths and arcs like that is the

(01:23:07):
core of the film. The fact that you get these
feminist sentiments sprinkled throughout that. I mean, definitely progressive for
her story set in Civil War era, and then even
progressive for something from ninety four like expecting that really
And while I feel things kind of fall apart by

(01:23:31):
the end where the focus does become more on the
relationship that these little women have with men, and especially
the Joe character, I feel being sold out because she
had previously been established as someone who's like, no, I'm
not really interested in being a wife. I'm not really
interested in being married. I just want to pursue my writing.

(01:23:52):
And then Friedrich comes along and she's like, well, even
though you made me change everything I write about, we
should maybe end up together. I didn't like that. But overall,
I really like this movie, and I like what it's
trying to do, and I think it is generally executed
pretty well. Just stay for a few little beats that

(01:24:14):
I wasn't too crazy about. But yeah, overall, I'll give
it a three point seven. I will give one nipple
to Aunt March, I will give one to Marmie, one
to Joe, and I'll give my three quarters of a
nipple to the little cute, little orange Katie Cat. I'm

(01:24:36):
gonna I think three and a half. Yeah. I like
this movie, so I feel like this is the best
adaptation so far. I hope that, like Greta Garroway kind
of keeps pushing it. I mean, based on the trailer alone,
I feel like we're going to see quite a bit
of it. Although Debrah's Joe runs a lot of criticism,
I think is alive and well, we see Sarscha puts

(01:24:58):
in ten thousand steps easily. She women be running to
indicate that their spirit is Yeah, it's a thing, it's
a thing. But no, I mean I think that this
is like it does, it does, it does? Yeah, and
I like that a lot of There's two women from
the production team of this movie that are coming back

(01:25:22):
to work on the Gerwig movie. Denise da Novi, who
is a producer on the main producer in this movie,
is also producing the new one. And then Robin spikers back.
So it seems like they have people who have a
history like the you know, I hope this is the
next m c U l W the uh you know.

(01:25:43):
And then we meet more little women. There's so many.
There's some of them are looking for special rock and
then they fight each other. I uh, the that was
like I think I just pitched a terrible funny or
died sketch. Um, but I watch Yeah, No, I think
it's really good. And yeah, I mean there's definitely things

(01:26:04):
about it that are of its time, but a lot
is also course corrected. Um. I want to give the
production team the benefit of the doubt and say that
ending the scene on Joe deciding to get married was
a studio note and not something that anyone actually wanted
to do, because it just doesn't it seems like totally
dissonant with the rest of I think. Yeah, I would,
I would say, so that is them going, let's let's

(01:26:26):
tie this up nicely. Every Yeah, and everyone was kicking
each other under the table, but they had to do
it because that's where the money was coming. Right. It's
like it seems like a male executive note. It does
at the end, but but for the most part, Yeah,
I mean, like giving Marmie a name, giving Marmy a
feminist identity, and and just I mean to like shout
out the original book to like Louise was really cool.

(01:26:49):
She seemed like she would be really mean to me.
I got a big step on my neck energy from
because she was just like, you like my work. I
don't like she just was like, she seemed like a
really fun she said. She wrote the second half of
the story good wives quote in a very stupid style.

(01:27:13):
She says, there's also I read a quote that this
other sequel, Joe's Boys. She said she was so just
like piste off about having to write the whole thing
that by the end she wished she could have had
the school for boys that they open up just get
swallowed up by an earthquake. I'm paraphrasing, but but something

(01:27:36):
like that. I do like when people start to resent
their cash cow. It's I think that's really like very
It's humanizing, isn't it. It's like, all, yeah, we get it,
we get it. Sometimes to do it for the paycheck,
you know, Oh god, what about you? I would say,
you know, I think we all agree it's around a
three point five it is, right. I just they lose

(01:27:56):
a point. They lose a nipple or two for me,
because it's just the word insipid comes up for me.
And I know that's of the time, but it just
it did it. It irked me a little bit. Um,
it just really did it. And I know I'm being
ah too picky, but um, but generally speaking, right, it
was you know, it was they didn't do little women

(01:28:17):
and and replace it like we see in comedy so much.
They'll be like it's a it's a women's festival, but
there's four male headliners. Like they didn't do that, and
I mean they didn't go a little women, but there's
a brother at this one. Like there was none of that.
So that in and God bless them because they could
and I'm sure they got notes for it, so you
have to still really give them, you know, three and
a half nipples, three point seven five nipples for that.

(01:28:38):
So thank you very much on that one, you know
what I mean, Like, come on, we've all been there.
It's just like a woman show. But there's three guys. Okay,
we got Yeah. The twist is they haven't assaulted a woman.
You're like, okay, well they've earned their place here. T J.
Miller's back in movies. You see that, Yeah, that underwater
killing me now, which I would but with normally that

(01:29:00):
my kind of I love that sort of genre that
I do. But I know when he's not the preview,
like I think I shrieked out like that kind of
I was like, oh no, keep it in, canceled, not
anymore anyway. Anyway. To conclude, little Women, pretty good, pretty good,
pretty is. Yeah, Debora, thank you so much for joining

(01:29:22):
us for a third time. Girls, ladies, humans, little WoT
woman dudes exactly. Always a pleasure, truly. Where can people
follow your stuff? Um? Instagram, I'm Debora d g And
on Twitter, I'm Debora Dgovanny. I know it's my whole name.
How awful. But yeah, d E b R A d
G is what you can usually find me excellent. You

(01:29:46):
can follow us US little women, US grown ass women
on social media at bectel cast Rain and review us
if you would for this holiday season give us a
nice five star Apple podcasts and whatnot. You can subscribe
to our Patreon a k a. Matreon by going to

(01:30:07):
patreon dot com slash Bechtel Cast and it's only five
dollars a month. You get access to the entire back
catalog and it's a real treat. Give thank you the
gift of the Matreon. It keeps on giving instead of
the fun the gift of the Madgi the gift of
the Matreon. Yeah. Also, you can grab some of our

(01:30:28):
merch at t public dot com slash the Bechtel Cast.
We've got all of our designs there and I think
that about does it. Yeahl bye bye bye

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