Mulan (1998) with Ceda Xiong

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, back to the heads. This is Jamie Loftis, this
is Caitlyn Durante. So this is an episode that we
recorded shortly before the lockdown began. So we didn't put
anyone in danger. No, we didn't, just so you know,
it was still allowed. Back then two weeks ago, UM

(00:22):
with the wonderful returning guest Sita Geng about Mulan because
originally Mulan was going to be coming out right, uh
that obviously it is no longer the case, or if
it's released, it won't be in theaters because what our
theaters really anymore? Um, But we just wanted to say hello, yes,

(00:46):
and that we hope you're doing well. I hope you're
feeling well and staying inside if you can, and if
you do have to be out working, we are with
you and we hope we could be a nice part
of your day and that we love you all. So
as to be expected, I'm sure this will come as
a surprise to no one, but the upcoming live shows

(01:06):
that we had scheduled, um at least the ones in
Austin and Boston. The Austin one we had announced and
sold tickets for sold out. We unfortunately had to cancel
that and everyone will be refunded. M We are still
waiting to hear about l a On, so we'll see.

(01:27):
Stay tuned. UM. In the meantime, if you need extra
Bechtel in your life, our Matreon is there for you
with extra episodes. We know a lot of people have
been burning through a lot of episodes quickly, UM, and
we have plans in April to do some commentary tracks
for you to watch while you're at home. Audio commentary
April baby. Uh. In the meantime, please enjoy this episode

(01:51):
and Moulan enjoy. On the dodcast, the questions asked if
movies have women and are all their discussions boyfriends and
husbands or do they have individualism the patriarchy and best
start changing it with the beck del Cast. Hi, everybody,
I was like, I was like, where do what? I

(02:12):
was trying to think of a fun in Oh. I
don't know. I'm just excited for this episode. Hi everyone,
Welcome to the Backdel Cast. My name is Jamie Loftus,
my name is Caitlin drown Today, and this is our
podcast about the portrayal of women in movies. Uh where
we use the beck Dol test. I've heard of it
to jump off, have a jumping off point, and then
we you know, just do it deeper dive, not the

(02:33):
whole podcast common misconception. I love when someone's like, oh,
I've listened to your podcast, which, first of all, there's
never a need to lie about that. I've never been
less hurt like when someone's like, I haven't listened to
your podcast and makes sense, you know, like why would
you listen to a podcast to shame our audience? Use
silly sods. But like when someone's kind of faking it

(02:56):
and then they're they're like, oh, that's the one where
you spend an hour and a half figuring out if
it passes the backtel, I'm like, do you think we
just print out the script? And I like, M, I
don't know. It looks like that's a male character, so
is not going to pass on to the next live
we should do in April Fool's episode, that is just that,
like us going through the script of the Shawshank Redemption

(03:18):
and just doing what like people who are lying about
listening to the show, I think it is. Anyways, this
is the bet. We use the Bechdel test, which is
a metric invented by cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the
back Doel Wallace test that requires that a piece of
media have an exchange between two female identifying characters with
names that is about something other than a man. Should

(03:41):
be easy enough, especially for this movie. Right, Well, well,
I don't know topic. It's kind of the no, well,
it's complicated sometimes that's the thing, not a perfect metric.
But also we just have a lot to talk about today.
I'm so excited for today. This episode has benny long
time coming. We were going to do it a while ago,

(04:03):
and then we found out that there was a live
action reboot of this movie coming out, and then we
had to postpone doing this episode by like a year,
which has been a painful way but the way here
we are. We were talking about Mulan finally finally, Yes,
the day has come Um and yeah we have we
there's so much ground to cover. So without much further ado,

(04:25):
let's introduce our guest. Um. She is a writer, a comedian. Um.
She's been a guest of ours previously on the Crazy
Rich Asians episode, and she's also made a contribution on
our Gremlins episode, which we were all very grateful for
and She's amazing. It's Seedi seng Hi. Thank you for
having me back, coming back so excited to talk about Mula,

(04:47):
which was one of the first jokes I ever wrote.
We actually about Mulan, really was. I had this bit
that I was, you know, I recently booked the job.
I got a role in the live action rem a Mulan,
And people in the audience would clap, because sometimes you
go to an audience that actually doesn't know you're joking,
so it's very sweet when they do. They're like lapping,

(05:09):
And then I would say, well, I'm going to be
playing Mushu because it's always been my dream to play
Eddie Murphy. So yeah, I guess they're they've brought back
Mushu for the live action remake, but not not Eddie.
Eddie Murphy is not voicing it. But I just saw
an IMDb thing where Mushu, but I don't know if

(05:30):
Mushoe talks, I don't know. Well, maybe my information is wrong,
but I just today watched uh one of those like
IMDb dot com originals where they like do a little
they're all all all bangers, but they're like people were
wondering would Mulan's Animal Friends return for the live action reboot,

(05:51):
and no one knew for sure, but it seems like
Mush at least Mush. I don't know about the cricket.
What does he what does he look like? Is it
like one of those like scary like lion king, like
photo realistic, Like I mean, he's a real Komodo dragon.
You're like, that's not why I come to the movie,
but it would be so weird based on what I've
seen in the trailers, which seems like a like for
a Disney movie. It's like a gritty action the first PG. Thirteen,

(06:16):
the yeah of the first because I guess that they're
they're like they're doing some real warship in there. Huh.
So again, Mulan is making some like serious like I
guess it's called bushoo ushoo fantasy kind of moves, so
lots of wire work that's really like body intensive. It
should be incredible to see. I'm really excited about it.

(06:36):
I'm like, I mean, is Mulan the first Disney princess
who presumably kills people? We don't see her rack up
a body count in the cartoon, but I feel like
it's implied that she would have killed the main bag guy, right,
she lit him out somewhe she kills some well also,
I mean she crushes a lot of people with that
avalanche at A lot of people are in the aval

(06:59):
but they also seen to mostly come back and survive that.
I have a lot of thoughts about how the how
the enemies on this in this war are portrayed, which
is like super racist, yes, like I mean we have
so so much because there they're like, oh, like people
who are on the opposite side of the war evil.
We're going to draw them darker than the rest of
the cast and their zombies and they have like animal eyes, yeah,

(07:23):
like the dark Like it's the way that it looks
like the beast in Beauty and like they yeah, it's
a crazy way to regard like the Humes, which is
like the stand in for the the invaders of China
at this time. But it's it's so funny because he's
got like fanes too, literally from the dead, and you're like,
this is not human And this was the first time

(07:47):
watching this movie that I love, but like there are
some things where you're like, wait a second, I don't
know what this war is about. What if Mulan is
on the wrong side of the war, like, we don't
know what if they're fighting over don't don't trying to
like uprise against like a very like totalitarian empire. We

(08:08):
don't know, they don't and they don't tell us. They're
just like, well, we love Mulan, so she probably on
the right side of the work. But you're like, we don't,
we don't. That's actually guarantee war is fucked up? Did
you in this official stadium perhaps glorifies war a bit. Yes,
that said, it's also a cartoon. Does that make it better?

(08:31):
I don't know, right, I don't know. I don't know
if there's another Disney movie that deals with war, like
I mean, I guess Lion King in a sense, like
the skirmishes with Uncle Scar kind of warl that is
because it's like different, but it's so isolated, such a
small battle. No, this is like, this is historical. There's
an actual war that happens. There's people that are divided politically,

(08:55):
and then there's the sort of the duty to the country,
which is like what Mulan really stand for, right, Like,
there are some like nationalism undertime duty to the I mean,
which I don't know. I'm like I don't even know
how to feel about that, but but it ended up
the military stuff in this You're just like, whoa there,

(09:16):
it's just very And I was thinking about that because
there's been a lot of writing about the reboot and
about their like, well, is this movie like being to
you know, over the top with like funded by military
stuff and like nationalism stuff, And it's like that may
be true in some ways, but it's like most Like,

(09:37):
I mean, so many popular American movies are funded by
the military that I feel like it's disingenuous to be
like the entire Transformers is funded by the fucking Marines.
Like it's so true. We talked about this in Independence
Day with Lindsay Ellis, But like there's this like such
a well documented history of like people who have a

(09:58):
good relationship with the military get tanks to use in
their movies, and their movies make a billion dollars and
you're just like, I don't military industrial complexes is Oh boy,
is it not good? Quote me on that, so let
me get the full camouflage military industrial complex. I know

(10:21):
we went into this being like maybe it's good, but
I'm here to tell you it's actually very bad. I mean,
the part of the military sequence I found interesting was
like how whimsical the army training was. That was like,
that's definitely like a place in a Disney movie where
that should happen, because in most war movies the training
is definitely not whimsical. This is just like a giant

(10:43):
pole which belts around your way. And then also question,
is Leshan like the only male love interest that takes
off his shirt and a Disney movie, Well, Aladdin is
pretty shirt like is pretty, but but he's his nipples
are covered. That's true. S his body is very Suddenly

(11:04):
You're like it's right there, right. And then I went
back to my like I was like five when this
movie came out. I was just like, oh wow, like
just like your weird little like baby brain being like
this is different like this yeah, I I mean I
remembered when that scene happened. I mean, um, well, let's

(11:29):
dive in officially with we're gonna talk about the military
industrial complex, but we've hardly begun. Um, ste what's your
relationship history with this movie? So I was talking to
Caitlin a little bit earlier, and I kind of missed
the boat on this movie. When I was growing up
because I got a little too old for Milan when
it first came out, so I actually didn't watch it

(11:49):
until I turned like thirty, and so I came to
its super late wash it when I was thirty so
moved by it totally cried after like a first viewing
as an adult, I was like, oh, wow, the you know,
a story about the headstrown only daughter of a Chinese family,
I can't possibly relate to that. It was very It
was very like I should have known that this was coming,

(12:10):
and I still was not prepared for how much it
moved me. Um, and I watched this again just like
right before the podcast is to refresh my brain and
the details. And it's still a very, very action packed
story that has a lot to do with how the
protagonist is self motivated, and I think that is something

(12:30):
that like we love to see in female characters. And
she's just so she's so smart and has her own
morality and she has such conviction and that's really like
what gets her through all of the movie, really, and
I love that turn at the end where she has
to dress as a concubine so she successfully passes as
a woman. There's a lot of like drag king stuff

(12:54):
in the beginning, which I really love, and there's like
kind of drag queen stuff towards me, and I was like,
this is such kind of a drag eccentric movie. There's
a lot like yeah, I mean the gender performance, like
the female gender performance in this movie, it's like it's
kind of fucking incredible, Like it is really yeah, yeah,
talking more about it, there's well, we will, we definitely will.

(13:15):
I mean, there's so much to talk. I mean, I
because there are certain elements. I just have never watched
this movie in not uh like I love Mulan lens.
That's the only way I've ever watched this movie is like,
this is one of my favorite movies ever. This movie
came out when I was five years old, and I
don't remember seeing it for the first time, but I
know that I saw it like five hundred times. We

(13:37):
did a whole Mulan Halloween and my family that, Um,
I checked the pictures. I'm like, Okay, we were not racist,
because you have to check when you're a white kid,
you have to be like, did my parents do a
good job. I think that they're a pretty good job.
I'll show you the picture, but but I should be
the front page of the podcast this week for the record,

(13:58):
because you gotta be careful. But yeah, like I was,
I loved it so much. I love just everything about it.
The Stevie one of the most cursed Disney musical collaborations
in history, between Stevie Wonder and ninety eight degrees Credits.
I was like, what is happening? I was ranking. I
was like, I think it's the second most cursed collab.

(14:19):
I love it, but it's the only more cursed collab
of the Disney Renaissance is in Sync and Phil Collins.
That's the worst one. True to your heart kind of slaps.
It's good, but you're just like, how did these don
did these people meet each other? It was that like Tarzan. Yeah,
I think I've mentioned this before, but in my favorite

(14:40):
press junket of all time, which is in Sync with
Phil Collins, and and it's like peak in Sync, it's
nine in Sync, Like Lance Bass is like, yeah, Phil
Collins is pretty much the sixth member of in Sync.
I wonder how Genesis feels about that. College is just

(15:00):
grimacing or you're just like, this is the greatest thing
I've ever seen. All I have to say I loved
Mulan at the time. I feel like it was the
first genuinely empowered Disney princess I had ever seen. It
was because there is like some nineties girl power elements
to this, but it really hit for me. Um. My

(15:22):
cousin was Warrior Mulan. I was Reflection Mulan, and my
brother was Shi. You were super deep. We were. It
was a whole family like we were just like we're
a Mulan, We're Mulan heads. So I love it. Yeah,
what's your history with it, um Cita. I'm like you
where I had aged out of kind of Disney movies

(15:43):
and I joke about having aged back into them because
I'm going to see Onward tomorrow. Um. But yeah, I
was twelve in this movie came out, so I was like,
I'm too cool for cartoons. So it just like came
out at the wrong time for me, I guess, and
I and so I didn't grow up with it, and
I think I only saw it maybe once or twice,

(16:05):
just sort of in passing, not paying that much attention
to it in my like kind of more adolescent or
early adult years. And then I've watched it three times
now to prep for the episode because I'm like, shit,
like I hate that I missed this when I was younger,
because like it's so good, like it's I yeah, I
mean there's there's plenty to talk about, but I love

(16:27):
so much about it. I love the songs, I love
the music, and I love there's like these all these
great montages. This is the first viewing that I I
think because I haven't seen this movie in like six
or seven years. I think this is the first time
I've seen it since I have become a beady once
Wong stand I didn't realize he was. I didn't. I
don't think I knew who he was the last time

(16:47):
I saw this movie like in high school, and like
I was like, wait, what, like so much good stuff.
There's so much and yeah, I mean you were touching
on just the character of Mulan, just like being so
smart and rustful and outspoken, and like, yeah, it gives
us a lot to talk about. It's also I think
for for girls that weren't like kind of girly girls,

(17:09):
like it has that rezomie like um the reflection Mulan
song that's very much about like trying to figure out
who you're supposed to be in this world that tells
you that you're supposed to be one way, but you
feel a totally different way, and that kind of plays
into the gender performance of it. But but that's soon
also probably, Like I was thinking about Mulan as a
whole for for young women. I was like, this is

(17:31):
a very good movie to also watch if you're like
a female comic amongst a lot of male comics where
you're like or is she's trying to fit into the army?
I was like, oh yeah, I felt that we're like
everything is disgusting, but you just have to like go
along to be like, yeah, this is great and people
are still like we hate you. Like cool. Yeah. I

(17:52):
was just talking about how we were getting ready for
this episode today in a room with um two gay
men and they were both like reflection and like spoke
to me so much when I was a kid, of Yeah,
I mean, because it is such like a general theme
for people who feel like they don't fit into what
the prescribed norm is, where like it's it's And then
I did some research of I was like, oh, I

(18:13):
wonder if this is a common read and it seems
like there's like a fair amount of writing from queer
and trans writers who are like Reflection was like it
I easily see that. There's that line where she says, like,
when will my reflection show who I am inside? I mean,
And I think we've heard a similar read in The
Little Mermaid where like arials, transformation, Um, yeah, like feeling

(18:36):
like you're in the wrong skin, and a friend of
the cast, John Ford, spoke to that a bit, yes,
So I mean, I feel like that's always a cool
There's plenty of criticism of like huge pop culture Disney movies,
but the fact that like there are those big themes
that they can speak to that make kids who feel

(18:57):
out of place feel heard is really cool. And there
are such massive movies too, basically everyone sees them. So
it's not just like, oh, this is a message that
like a few people see. It's like, this is a
message like across a generation can see that. That does difference.
That really does. IM one of my closest friends from

(19:19):
high school. She immigrated from Haiti around the time this
movie came out, and it was one of the first
movies she saw in America, and she was like so
impacted by it that she majored in Chinese in college,
she's a fluent and she works in international relationship. Now
she I'm like Mulan, Like, people love Mulan. It changed

(19:42):
a lot um, all right, So I'll do the recap
and then we'll get into the discussion. We open we're
in ancient China. There's an attack un invasion led by
the big scary chan you, and the emperor is like,
this will not stand. We got to recruit people from

(20:03):
my army to fight these invaders. Then we meet Mulan.
She is prepared, kind of cheer good. She is preparing
to go to the village matchmaker because her family wants
her to be matched with a good husband so that
Mulan can bring honor to the family, because that's how
a woman in the world of this movie brings honor

(20:26):
to her family. We meet the mom, we meet her mom,
and we're like, oh, I wonder if this relationship will
be explored, and then it's like no, and they're like, funny,
Grandma Trope. I'm like, okay, it's kind of funny. And
then her meeting with the matchmaker goes disastrously and she

(20:46):
tells Mulan that you will never bring honor to your family,
and that's when Mulan sings reflection about how you know,
maybe being a bride is not the part she's supposed
to play. Then the army recruiters show up, and one
of them is this guy, Chief Wu, and he's like, hey,
the Emperor is ordering one man from every family to
serve in the Imperial Army. And Mulan's father is prepared

(21:10):
to serve. But Mulan thinks that he should not have
to fight. I think it's implied that he was already
um a warrior in a previous and he and he
was injured and he like walks with a cane and
stuff like that. So she's like, he should not have
to fight, so she decides to take his place. Um.
She cuts off her hair, she dons her father's armor

(21:31):
to disguise herself as a man, and then rides off
into the night. And her family discovers that she has left,
but they realize that if they reveal what she's done,
she will be killed. Um, so they can't go to
stop her. Meanwhile, and then Eddie Murphy, Eddie Murphy shuts up. Um.

(21:56):
There's a lot of high jinks and mishaps here, but
basically he's like, all right, I'm gonna go watch over
and help Mulan. I feel like he's just kind of
warming up for Shrek this whole movie. Like he literally
is just like maybe I could make a billion dollars
off of doing this. He's just warming up for Donkey
and never forget Shrek. Never forget Shrek, never forget Okay. So,

(22:22):
with the help of Mushu and Mulan's lucky cricket, she
goes off to join the army. And meanwhile, a young
soldier named Shang voiced by Beati Wong and the singing
voice is Donny Osmond. By the way, I know the
masked singer himself. He came in second place the first season.
Um uh. He is made captain of this army. And

(22:45):
I didn't catch this at first, but it's like a
nepotism thing higher basically where his father is the general.
I didn't either. I don't know why. When I was
a kid, I'm like, I don't know if I was
just I was so hyper focused on, like I love Mulan,
but I never realized that Lee Seng was nepotism and
that he was grieving for like half because his father

(23:08):
dies I totally forgot that. I thought that scene where
he sticks the sword down, puts his dad's helmet on top,
and Mulan sees him grief. I was like, that's a moment.
She was like, panties are wet a man didn't exactly
on the battlefield right after his father's deaths were just

(23:29):
like we're all there. She's seen him his shirtless and
then you're like, you're like, yeah, yeah, inappropriate, but you
you get the sentiment. And then that's like, I think,
a great moment in terms of like showing how like
I mean, they don't go all the way with masculinity
in this movie and kind of examining it, but the
way that you know, he has to to maintain his

(23:50):
role of authority compartmentalized like enormous grief totally. And then
he gets on his horse and he's like it's fine,
and everyone's like, oh, it isn't. And then they have
to you know, war war indeed today in addition to
other things. Yes, um okay. So he has made captain
and he begins training this group of recruits that Mulan

(24:13):
has joined, and she says, hey, guys, yes, I'm definitely
a man and my name is Ping, but Mulan as
Ping kind of gets off on the wrong foot accidentally
with a lot of the other soldiers um but eventually
she wins them over and they become friends, and the
training begins and Mulan is not good at anything. She

(24:35):
almost gets sent home, but then there's that fun training
montage and we see her get really good at everything
and one of the greatest songs in Disney history. It's
so and I didn't like in that long Slapper montage
you see the Mary Jane trope entirely like done away

(24:56):
with because it was it would be like, I feel
like a classic Disney steak to be like, and she
got to war and she just was good at war.
But it's like you see that she learns it and
really like commits to it, and so do the men
around her, and it's like it's a struggle for everyone
and it's like goofy, but at least you're like, okay,

(25:17):
at least they're showing like it's not it's not that
Mary Sue like chosen one kind of narrative, like she
really rested her asked to be a great soldier. We
see that in Aladdin with Jasmine where she's like awesome
at like flipping over across buildings and she's like, I'm
a fast learner and she's like yeah, it's like you've
never left your palace, Like how are you right? You're

(25:37):
just like you've never left any Yeah there, when would
you have practiced that? That's a really good point because
I was reading about the legend, and in the Chinese
legend she actually learned martial arts and sword fighting and
everything from her dad. But if you had gone that
route with the story, you would have been not able
to have the training montage because I think what's what's

(25:59):
so great about the trade being montage, in addition to
the sun and everything, is that it's the camaraderie with
her friends. That's that's what builds like an army, right,
Like speaking of the military industrial commers, one of the
many reasons that so many men are so what it
imponded to it is the commonality of experience of going
through war training. Yeah. Yeah, and like seeing that, I

(26:20):
don't know. I like that they not only managed to
show that, but they may as you show it, and
maybe the most entertaining way history of war movies, I know,
because like compared this training montage to like the boot
camp sequence in Full Metal Jacket, and you're just like, oh,
these are totally very different, like we know which one
is more realistic, but which one has fun um Okay.

(26:46):
So then she goes through the montage. She gets really
good at everything. She's the only one who can figure
out how to get to the top of the poll
to retrieve the arrow that Shang had fired. She's st
smart um and by the end she's at the top
of her class, so to speak. Um. Meanwhile, the Hun
army is advancing and Mulan and her fellow soldiers are

(27:06):
sent to fight. They come upon Shan You and his
giant army of Hans who start to advance on them,
and they're about to aim a canon at Shan You,
but Mulan is like, no, I have a better idea,
and she aims it at the mountain, which causes that
huge avalanche that berries Shanu's army, and everyone's like hip hip,

(27:28):
hooray for Ping. But Mulan as Ping has been wounded,
and when her wound is tended to, that's when everyone
discovers that she is a woman. And in one of
the rewatching it goofy ist music stings I've ever heard of,
Like when comes in Oh, when Lesian comes into the

(27:50):
tent and Mulan is revealed to have titties, there's a
sinister titty sting where it goes like it goes like Dune, Dune,
and it's like she has t and then everyone's like, like,
it's so weird at least soapy in the middle of
this great movie. But I like rewound. I was like,

(28:11):
wait a second, they did that. There is a sinister
like I guess that that like if you're but you're like,
that's a little on the nose, but yeah, it's like
she has t. Well, when it's revealed that she is
a woman, um, they're like, this is treason and the

(28:33):
penalty was supposed to be death, but because she saved Shang,
he spares her life. Because of that awarding male mediocrity,
I have to date this man because he didn't murder me.
It doesn't seem fair. So instead they just abandoned her
and she feels as though she's a failure and she's
about to turn and go back home. But this is

(28:55):
also when she sees Chanyu's army rise up from the avalanche,
like the snow and she realizes she has to go
worn the army, so she does this. She arrives in
the city. No one will listen to her because she's
a woman and these men do not, and they view
her as a trader. They're having a parade for her work,

(29:17):
but yes, they're they're taking credit for It's in fury.
She's like, She's like, the Huns are about to kill you,
and they're like, go away, shut up. Yeah, while they're
like spending however much money, literally taking credit for her work,
and it's like, what a beautiful parade that she cannot

(29:37):
get through and then she gets no credit for It's
like it's a celebration of her accomplishment that she has
to overcome because yeah, so so rude, um so. And
then during this victory celebration, the Huns attack and kidnaped
the emperor, but Milan and her friends fight back and

(29:58):
dressed in drag while doing it um to trick the Huns. Yes,
they saved the emperor and Mulan kills Shan you and
the emperor is like, wow, Mulan, you're so cool. Here's
a spot on my council and she's like, no, I'm good.
Actually I'm gonna go home to my family. She returns home,
her family realizes, oh, you have brought us great honor,

(30:22):
um for being a war hero. And then Shang shows
up and he's like, oh, you're cute. I just realized.
This is where like in retrospect you're just like, yeah,
I'm not crazy, and I'm not I'm not happy about
the ending, but and that's so let's take a quick

(30:45):
break and then we'll come right back to discuss. And
we're back. Yes, um so, because we just finished Caitlin's
famous recap, I think that on rewatch Um, the ending
is one of the parts of the movie that holds

(31:06):
up the least well for me, Um because I feel like,
you know, at the climax of the movie, the whole
country bows to her. I'm like weeping. It's the most cathartic, amazing,
Like this woman who has been through this intense sacrifice
and like she's done so much and she's finally like

(31:27):
just getting credit for what she did. It's so just
like you don't get to see that a lot, especially
in the kids movie, and and then to see what
the like where that leads to is I feel like
you see this whole movie of Mulan kicking open this
door that was not open for women, and then the
movie ends with that door just kind of shutting behind

(31:49):
her because the and and especially bothers me and the
way that they wrote that scene between her and the emperor,
and then how the Emperor talks to Lei Shang about
her after she leaves, which he basically is just saying
she's not like the other girls. It doesn't make him
reconsider should women be given more opportunities? Should women be
allowed to be in the military. He's like, you don't

(32:11):
mean a girl like that every dynasty wink wink, And
it's just like totally missing the point of what the
movie seem to have such a great understanding of. And
they're just like, oh, like, yeah, women can do stuff
as long as they're like this woman. And even even
she is just sent back home to domesticity and a
boyfriend and she has to be okay with that, right,

(32:33):
like to be fair. That is how the legend also
kind of ends, and legend ends so much worse. Yeah,
Like but it's like it's and I feel like a
movie that does so much more than most movies made
for young girls do, Like they could have taken some
artistic license there and could have given her a life

(32:56):
that didn't have to just do it. And she has
a boyfriend now and that and the end right, and
I have complicated feelings about this because like the Emperor
is like, hey, you're so great that I want to
offer you a position on my counsel. He's like giving
her this, this position of power, and she refuses to
do that. She's like, I'd rather go home and be

(33:17):
with my family, and that's her choice. But also the
movie makes her make that choice, and like they don't
need to do that. I don't know, it just felt weird,
and I was glad that at least it's like, oh,
she was offered an opportunity, but that almost makes it
feel weirder to me. Of like her whole like the
Disney Renaissance model, of like the heroine at the beginning

(33:38):
sings about what she wants and it's to be like
seen for being different and that's okay, and then at
the end she just decides to be the same. Like
that that doesn't even feel consistent with the character. All
of those two those two points are really good consistent
with the way that this movie portrays Mulan. I think
maybe what they were trying to do is hard come
back to the myth, which has Mula and being like,

(34:00):
I love my family so much and war is going
to come between my family, and I have to stop
the war so that I can be with my family,
And I don't think the movie does that very well.
I think the movie focuses more on her individuating herself,
improving herself, and so it is distinctly disappointing at the
end when she reverts when she gets I mean Lesha

(34:20):
and is a boyfriend, which is great, but like, that's
not that doesn't feel like where we've been led. Yeah,
and that also was never her goal, Like it didn't
we weren't led to believe that she she The movie
starts with her outright not wanting a relationship in any way,
to the point where she's like really frustrated that it's
being forced a p and so I mean, it's it's

(34:42):
I feel like, at least it's like, you know, she's
choosing her partner, and that is different from what is
being presented to her at the beginning. But it just
feels like a not a fair compromise for the character
that we've I don't know. And it's weird because it's
like when I was a kid and when I was
watching this movie growing up, I never really thought of
it that way, but watching it now, I was it

(35:03):
was It's not like I mean, it's still an incredible movie,
but I was kind of like, I feel like Mulan
would want more. I don't know, and well, what's your
ideal ending? How would you want to see her end up?
My ending? Okay, I was trying. I was trying to
think about this. I if she ends up with Leashing, great,
but I feel like if her and Lea Shang they

(35:24):
worked together maybe and like she's proven herself to be
this incredible soldier and maybe they could work alongside each
other as and which I mean that's probably not historically feasible,
but it's a Disney movie. Like I'd like to see
her go on and like in my head, I'm like
flash forward to Mulan training young girls in like physical combat,

(35:45):
Like that's badass, even if it's in her hometown and
her dad's there and he's like, I'm so proud, and
her mom is like I wish I was a character
and I wi had in her life, right, but it's
like Mulan training young girls and maybe she's home with
her family, but it's like something of like has something
that's more than what she was rebelling against at the beginning,
right mind, when my version of the ending would be

(36:07):
if she accepts that position on the Emperor's Council. Again,
assuming it's he's not like, you know, an evil dictator.
We don't know of this dynasty, but we're not sure,
so hopefully, you know, he's very progressive. He's you know
that he like more women on the council and right exactly,
I mean hopefully that's why he offers on the job.

(36:29):
But she accepts the position, she moves her family to
like the Imperial City so she can still be with
her family. But you know, she's got this powerful position
in politics and stuff like that. And you know, if
she ends up with Shang, fine, but for the movie
to end that way where like he shows up and
he's like, hey, I just realize you're hot. That just
feels so tacked on, especially because like what you were

(36:50):
saying where right around the low point of the movie
screenwriting degree, I had to mention it. But um, she
has this whole in realization where she's like, oh, I, UM,
maybe I didn't do this for my father, because that's
what seems like her motivation is initially where she's like,
I'm going to save my father's life, and I think
that's probably still part of why she makes that choice,

(37:12):
but she realizes like, maybe I didn't do this for
my father. Maybe I what I really wanted was to
prove that I could do things right, like, because we
see her failing so miserably at like being what's expected
of her as like a traditional woman and a bride.
So she's like, but here's something I think I could
be good at, and it turns out she is, and
it ends up I feel like those themes end up

(37:34):
kind of fighting with each other a little bit, where
they just like by subscribing kind of strictly to the
like mythic mulan that has existed in culture for thousands
of years and then also adding in these nineties themes,
but the nineties themes don't really pay off in the
way that it's written, um, and they kind of just
they're like, well it we have basically this ending, so

(37:57):
let's just keep it. But it is like she has
that line where she literally like maybe I wanted to
do things right, maybe I wanted to look in the
mirror and see someone worthwhile. And that's like, I mean,
she articulates that herself, and I feel like that desire
is maybe paid off a little bit in the fact that,
you know, trying to bowse to her, she gets credit

(38:18):
and she gets validation. But to think that that is like, Okay,
well I'm done, I'm self actualized, and now I can
just be a wife just doesn't It feels like it
undoes a lot of what had been set up. I
like that they try to add these modern themes, but
I just feel like they're not fully paid off on
It's like the themes are modern, but the actions are

(38:39):
historic but not, but then the historical actions undermine the themes. Yeah,
it ends up kind of like being like, yeah, in
a little bit of conflict with each other. Yeah. I
just think maybe in history two women have always found
ways to to enact rebellion in ways that you just
just not obvious. And and an historical record is so

(39:01):
shitty at keeping record about women in general. Who knows
if if Mulan didn't. Okay, so in my version, Mulan
besides that living as a man is pretty awesome. So
she goes back to her hometown, tells her parents maybe
like assuages them or does something where she like assuages
their fears because there's going to be news all over

(39:24):
about her, and she just goes on and lives as
a man and like figures out like how because she's
so successful. As I love this reason, listeners, please share
your ideal ending of Mulana. We all agree the one
that we get isn't the perfect one, and I mean,
there's just seems like there's three better ideas in the

(39:44):
room right now, I think, so maybe the live action
one will you know, it'll be closer to one of these.
Could I really quickly share just the the sourcement, just
a quick summary of what the kind of legend um
and how it goes, because I wasn't totally I knew
that it was based on something, but I didn't know
if it had something to do with history or for
a strictly legend. It seems like it's legend um, but

(40:06):
so here's a quick wiki summary. It is officially based
on the Ballad of Mulan that goes a little something
like this. It's set in the Northern Way era, which
is between three eight six and five thirty six, which
is like somewhere in the time that the movie is
also supposed to take place. Is a D or BC

(40:28):
a D but you know, a long time ago. We
don't know what the politics are at this time. We
still don't know who's right. I try, I was really
trying to do research of like is this a real war? Yes?
Who is right? I couldn't figure it out. I've got confused.
I'm sorry. Uh. The poem starts with Mulan sitting worriedly
at her loom as one male from each family is
called to serve in the army to defend the Tuoba

(40:50):
Realm from the Ruin invaders. Her father is old and weak,
and her younger brother, which I'm like, oh, we cut
him in. Well here's a dog. When she's like little brother,
little brother, yea the dog. Well, her younger brother is
just a child or a dog. So she decides to
take her father's place and bids farewell to her parents,
who support her, which I think is an interesting difference.

(41:10):
And she tells her parents I'm doing this. I kind
of like that about her away. She's already skilled in fighting,
having been taught martial arts, sword fighting, in archery by
the time she lists in the army, which I think
is what you were saying to about her dad. And
the interesting thing about Chinese women is that like kind
of feminism went through different waves. I mean, the kind
of feminism that we know about ancient Chinese women during

(41:32):
the Confusion periods are like very like subservient and like
like supposed to obey the patriarchy. But Chinese women also
went through periods of time where they were the head
of the household and they were like more pushed to
the forefront, and those records are lost in history. Of course,
it's comforting to be like, maybe it happened there, It

(41:53):
seems like Mulan, especially because like for a story to
persist for this long and like it seems like this
story was written in a period where women had more
agency than possibly we do right now. Um, So after
twelve years of fighting the army, so she's in the
military for twelve years, and after twelve years the army
returns and the warriors are rewarded. Mulan turns down an

(42:16):
official post and asked only for a camel to carry
her home. Wouldn't it be great if she left on
a camel. She's gretably joyed by her family. Mulan donned
her old clothes and meets her comrades, who are shocked
that in the twelve years of their enlistment together, they
did not realize she was a woman. So that's the story.
So I feel like that element the ending is kind

(42:38):
of pulled from the legend in but then like some
of the parts I think about the legend that are
really cool are left out, Like what if Mulan left
with her parents blessing? That's kind of wild, And like
what if her father had actively trained her that would
have been I don't know. There's like parts of this
ancient story that feel more progressive than the story where right.

(43:01):
I wonder if, like the this adaptation was like, well,
let's really heighten the patriarchy here, but then also like
bowed down to it by the very like in the
very final scene of So did y'all check out the
credit the writing credits for this movie. So the story
is adapted by Robert C. Somebody somebody, and then the

(43:24):
actual screenplays written by like five different people, one person
being I think Chinese. I think there's one person of
the fighters, Yeah, is Chinese who her other writing credits
I found were Toy Story two and My Little Pony Movie.
So she's solid, solid record, solid. Yeah. I was reading
on Cora. I just got curious about what the Chinese

(43:46):
think about Mulan, and I just love Cora and all
it's freaky people the right like ten pages for every answer.
And one of the commenters said that Kung Fu Panda
was a better depiction of Chinese culture. Cannot disagree because
comul Panic got a lot of things right. Well, let's

(44:09):
talk about I mean, the depiction of Chinese culture in
this movie, because a lot of the criticism I've seen
around this and again I'm like a dumb white lady
from Massachusetts, so my knowledge is limited, but reading just
a little a little bit about the criticism surrounding it,
it seems like there there is this like disconnect in
adapting Eastern legend to Western pop culture, Like there is

(44:33):
like some disconnect there that like it works for Western
audiences in some ways in a way that like doesn't
it doesn't. I think so. Some of the reading that
I did was that Mulan as a like the four
Thousand Lines poem that it is, like, you know, a
lot of Chinese students have to take the entrance exams
that allow them to qualify for university. A Mulan is

(44:56):
part of that curriculum. So so it's essentially like the
hardest test you have to take. It you have to
know like four thousand lines of a poem like Mulan
has a totally different kind of place in the Chinese
like psyche, it's gonna like it's like like if you
had to read you know, like Katalas or something like
Latin geeks would know what Catalas is. But that's the

(45:17):
kind of test that it is, you know, So that
that's that places it in a different like it's very
reverential but also very scholarly. So there's that part of it.
But I think what I noticed in just the production
design of the movie is that they just mashed up
Asia in the movie. So like the soldiers uniforms look Japanese,

(45:38):
they look like a very Samurai influence, and then there
were a ton of drums, which are very Korean, and
so I think when they when this movie went to China,
I think Chinese people were just like what the actual fuck,
Like what the funk am I looking at on screen
right now, and there's this tiny dragon that's voiced by
Eddie Murphy, you know, and also named like mushi, which

(46:00):
was like offensive in itself. Yeah, it's it's named after
an Americanized Chinese dish, even that in itself, like I
read some because I I didn't realize that Musho is
in the new movie. I thought he was cut out
because there was a lot of criticism. It might be
very wrong. It might just be a dragon who is
probably like photo realistic, but like to look at it,

(46:22):
I can't say, but I I when the first because
a lot of the analysis I was reading was when
the first trailers were coming out and people were just
kind of reacting to it. But um, you know, some
American audiences were like, where is Eddie Murphy? And then
the response was like that character was offensive in a
lot of ways and kind of like and like just

(46:42):
and also like, I mean, at least was meaningless and
had no grounding and anything that was realistic and then
at worst was like yeah, kind of like offensive and
like you just named something after like americanized Chinese dish
that you've had white male writer, um, of which there
are three on this movie. Yes, there's a lot of them,

(47:04):
there is, uh. For from what I could tell, it
was for writer for white writers, two women and one
person of Chinese heritage, who is a woman who you
would think, couldn't she just write the movie, you would think,
But no, you need the backup of some people such
as and it's kind of I mean, it seems a

(47:25):
little sinister to me that there are some writers here
who uh there's two writers in particular who are sis
had white male writers who went literally went to Harvard Um.
So just a person we've encountered, but especially this writer,
m Philip Lizebnik, who is a writer who seems to

(47:48):
have specialized in animated children movies with non white protagonists,
in spite of the fact that he is a sis
had white male who went to Harvard UM. It's very
sinister to me that you could trace a whole generation
of kids worth of like held misinformation, if not racism,

(48:10):
to like particular writers. But Philip lizette Nick has credits
such as Pocahontas, uh, probably the worst one of all, Mulan,
the Prince of Egypt, The Road to El Dorado, The
Lost Treasure of the Knights Templar, like just movie after
movie after movie that mischaracterizes non white protagonists. Um and

(48:30):
kind of creates these very Western narratives around cultures that
they couldn't possibly understand. I mean, those were hits too,
and they were all hits. And I think that's the
only color Disney release Ease right, Diseasesees Switch and the

(48:50):
other writer who kind of has the same thing as
Chris Sanders, whose other biggest hit was Lilo and Stitch
Um which Hawaiian is a Hawaiian culture. Chris Sanders as
from Colorado, and he also fun fact this is is
it fun? I don't know. He directed that new Call
the Wild movie with Harrison Ford in a Pilo tennis balls,

(49:13):
So you know, he's fine. He's never been. He's finally
back in his old white man genre telling stories. I guess.
I don't know, Um and a Dog, but it is.
I mean, it's like the two writers with the most
credits are two white men who have been telling non

(49:33):
white stories from a place of ignorance for their entire careers,
to the tune of millions of dollars. For your consideration,
Let's take another quick break and then we will come
right back and we're back. We're back. Um. I have

(49:53):
a list of ways in which this movie subverts a
lot of Disney movie troops that would like to share,
especially of this renaissance era, because this is one of
the later Disney Renaissance movies us all the way. I
think people might disagree with me, but I do not
think this is a princess movie. You could disagree, but

(50:16):
I think that's also a good thing, not positive, um
to me. Unlike a lot of other Disney movies which
are like the ones that are geared towards girls, they
are princess fairytale narratives. And even even though this one
is kind of based in ancient legend, and you know
it does feature a female lead, it's not like a princess,
you know, getting locked in a tower needing to be

(50:37):
saved by a man, her prince charming any like. None
of that. Yeah, so, you know, just the message that rich,
conventionally beautiful, usually white, young stiss women who are princesses
looking for prince are the only type of women who
whose stories are worth telling. Um. But Mulan subverts that
whole thing. Um. I think she is the are of

(51:00):
a wealthy family though, just judging from property like her own,
like Zi, Yeah, it was, it was like very large.
And usually in China you can tell how fancy people
are by how high their doorsteps are. Interesting, the higher
to doorsteps, the wealthier they are. You have to cross

(51:20):
with like massive threshold. Well by that metric, Geah, they're chilling,
they're good, keep the rats out nice. Next one is
that kind of like piggybacking off of it not being
like a princess fairy tale movie. Um, Mulan's Gold does
not have anything to do with finding a man or
like having a romantic interest. And you know, while Shang

(51:41):
does show up at her house at the end and
it's implied that she ends up with him romantically, it's
like not the focal point of the story in anyway.
It's it feels like more of like an afterthought, like
danu mall thing than any major part of the plot.
Thank you for saying any time. Yeah, um, And I

(52:03):
would also argue, well, here's something that I am not
too happy with, but I think Shang is like not
the best love interest. Agree, he's hot, he's hot, nipples.
I was trying Okay, I pause, I couldn't talk. Does
he have nipples? Because Disney has this weird thing where
they're like men can be shirtless, but they can't have nipples.

(52:25):
He does have kiples, he didn't, okay, thank you, because
I was like King Triton didn't have nipples, and that
that kN Tritton does does have there just dominent nipples.
Back the nipples because there was a time where they
were shirtless men but they didn't have nipple because maybe
King Triton's nipples scared them off. Maybe, but like Aladdin
does not have nipples. Aladdin was just so sexual. They

(52:50):
were like, we got a total back because the genie
also doesn't have nipples. Both male protagonists are shirtless the
whole time. They don't have nipples, and then you're just like,
who is this or got anatomically correct Asian male nipples
for the audience Another point for the movie. The next
thing on my list is that Mulan's mother is not dead.

(53:13):
She does not have a dead mom the character wise, characterwise,
she is not alive. She could just be the grandma.
They could have just folded that into one character, which
is like, yeah, there to this day, shamefully, one of
my mom's favorite Disney exchanges in the Whole Cannon is
towards the end where the where Mulan says would you

(53:35):
like to stay for dinner? And the grandma says would
you like to stay forever? My mom howls, She's like
the funniest joke ever written, Like that's my mom's bar
for comedy that exchange. But Grandma, Yeah, So her mom
is a lot, her mother isn't alive, and we also
see her grandmother. Both of those characters really just want

(53:55):
Mulan to be a bride, And the movie does frame
Mulan's relationship with her father as the more important relationship
in the story, and I think a little more like
even more frustrating. On top of that, is like her
father seems to be the only person in her family
who believes that she is capable of more than being

(54:16):
a you know, like very conscribed feminine person, which is
frustrating and like doesn't I don't know like that, Like
her father is the one who believes in her, and
her mother and her grandmother, who are both seemed to
be pretty strong female characters, don't believe that she's capable

(54:37):
of more. It's like, well then they might as well
be dead, you know what I mean. I don't want
them to, but but you know what, like the fact
that her father is the one who is presented is
by far the more most sympathetic character, where Like he's
the one that believes in her and he gets the
big moment at the end of the greatest honor of
all is having he as my daughter. And I'm like weeping,
but I'm also critical. Next thing is, from what I

(55:02):
could tell, the villain is not queer quoted like the
villains are. It's just racist. It's just racist that way better.
They don't even have human skin tones, that's like they're
and he has yellow eyes. That is I mean, that
is like something that is like a major issue I

(55:22):
had on a rewatch of Like they are drawn to
not be people, the people who we are not given
any perspective on why are they fighting? What are they
fighting for? It? They're like they're on the opposite side
of our protagonists, and so we're going to draw them
as gray, immortal animals. What if they're fighting for like
universal health care is just like fuck you girl. More likely,

(55:48):
what if they're literally canvassing for Bernie? I mean, that
is how Bernie grows up, but then it's like but
ultimately they have some good ideas. I don't know. My
guess is that in the context of this kind of
time period in China, there's a bunch of warring tribes.
There's like there's no real China like per se. You know,

(56:11):
China's in its four thousand years of history has had
so many different iterations of its kingdom. So the sort
of fancy side, the fancy Chinese in this movie are
like the ones that have cities and stuff. Most likely
there were the people that were leving taxes against the
people that were more nomadic because they're because they have

(56:33):
the infrastructure to do it and to collect taxes, and
the invaders, usually nomadic invaders don't want to pay taxes.
That's why they're nomadic. And maybe that's that might be
what the invasions about. But the timeline is also super distorted,
so I in in the movie it says it takes

(56:54):
place during dynasty, which ended like a hundred years before.
Like the Huns, the legend and the movie don't take
place in the same I don't even know how intentionally
that's done or if that was just like scattershot White
writer being like here because the Han dynasty, from what

(57:17):
research I've done, seems to be kind of like a
Golden age of Chinese history. So I don't know if
a white writer did a light google almost like sure,
let's put it here, um, But that's not It seems
like the Ballad of Muan takes place after where we're
being told the movie takes place, which would be in BC.
Not so confusing. Ancient history is wild in any case,

(57:44):
the villain is not queer coded the way that many
villains of this you know, Disney Renaissance era are. I
wouldn't give that a point though, because it's just racist
instead of it's like a racist and making it to
seem like it's a zombie animal. That's true, okay, so withdraw,
but speaking is just worse worse. Well, and I don't

(58:06):
mean to sound like I'm defending anything here, but the
queer coded villains are also racist in these in you know,
Lion King and because they always have darker skin and
things like that. Yes, I mean, and this is the
very least, but like at least in some cases the
queer coded villains have been reclaimed. I do not see
anyone reclaiming like like, like, fuck you, Disney, I'm reclaiming

(58:31):
Sean You like no one has reclaimed Sean You. Plenty
have reclaimed Ursula in a very powerful way. That is
like a middle finger to the Disney Corporation. That's also
given him a lot of my She's a businesswoman and
a lawyer. Of course, Shan You has made zero dollars
in the past ten years. If the color we're talking

(58:51):
about is green, shaw You is negative. Another one. Mulan
never has to be saved. I don't think me if
I'm wrong, but I didn't. I don't notice any moment
where she had But she does save. She saves Shang
during the avalanche, and then again towards the end when
um Shan You is about to kill Shang and Mulan

(59:12):
like throws a shoe at him, and she's like, it
was me who took your victory away. And then Mulan
and Shan You battle each other, which leads me to
the next kind of trope being subverted, which is Mulan
gets to defeat the villain during the climax of the movie,
and she fights with weapons and pots, pans domestic items,
which is how we normally see if a woman is

(59:34):
allowed to fight and defend herself. It is with traditionally
feminine objects, right, Like Mulan is using like real weapons,
whereas her friends, her army buddies, who are dressed in
dragged by the way and this and this climactic sequence. Um,
they are using like fruit to fight the bad guys.

(59:59):
So it's like, guess, I mean, I don't know what
that suggests exactly inversion that you're like, it's like, it's
like men who are presenting as women still using domestic
items to fight with. I think, yeah, it didn't bother me. Well,
the fun part of that scene on the roof with
Shang You is that she's fighting him with like the

(01:00:20):
sort of the board identity items, like a random stick
or something. Right, But then she takes shang you sword
from him, And that's the bad ass of where you're like, oh,
ship's about the guest real you got your sword taken away? Stereotype.
You're like, listen, raises villain, she got to the top
of the pole. You don't understand, Like it's exciting, um,

(01:00:41):
And I well, I was worried that this wouldn't be
the case because you know, we see in a little
Mermaid and Beauty and the Beast, where even though the
protagonists of those movies are women, it's always the male
love interest who steps in and like defeats the villain.
But so I was like, oh, no, is this going
to happen again, especially when I don't even know where
Shaning is for the majority of the Yeah, he's like
I'm honestly, he doesn't kind of burst in and fight

(01:01:04):
Shan you for like a minute, but then then he
gets knocked away. And then Mulan takes over and right
fights with weapons. She uses cannon, she uses swords and
both narrows and like all this stuff, and Shane gets
pretty much sidelined from that, you know, final climactic battle sequence,
he breaks her fall. That's how important to the fight

(01:01:25):
is he breaks her fall. He doesn't want a well
placed poll could do. Um. So yeah, those are the
main things I clocked in terms of this movie, um subverting,
And I just think that like Mulan is a character overall,
is just better characterized and like someone the Little Girls

(01:01:45):
and anyone who's watching this movie can look up to
far more than the main stree is Mulan, Like she
fucking rules like no one will ever talk me out
of mulan rules. She's amazed and and she's also from
what I was able to track, the first non white person,

(01:02:07):
whether justified or not, included in Disney Princess Cannon, who
isn't sexualized within an inch of her life, because that
was a huge I mean with Jasmine Esmeralda and Coca Hantas.
They were three brown women of different ethnicities who were
over sexualized, and it was a big problem. And this

(01:02:28):
was like one of the first things where you're, like,
did Disney take a note because Mulan is not sexualized,
she like her body is mostly hidden, right and and
and that kind of lines up with like, her character
has no vested interest in appearing in a sexualized way.

(01:02:49):
And it's like, it's one thing if like a female
character is like I want to present a certain way,
but that is not her stated intent and the movie
doesn't subject her to anything that doesn't make sense, and
that like that that is like, unfortunately a huge step
forward for Disney Renaissance movies, especially as not like I

(01:03:11):
mean not they sexualize all women, but they especially over
sexualized non white women. So in that way, you're like,
and there would have been an opportunity because there's that
scene where she takes a bath and like the pond,
she gets naked, and there's right but like all of
that is handled like very responsibly as far as is handled. Yes,

(01:03:37):
But then like that reminds me of the moment in
Little Mermaid when Ariel has just gotten her legs for
the first time and she's swimming to the surface and
then she bursts through the surface and there's this shot
she's like silhouetted by the sunlight, but it's like really
sexualized where like wet hair whips around her whole body
is rising. Yeah, I mean, god, I don't want to

(01:04:00):
I mean, how can like all of my various eating
disorders be traspect to dizny movies? Don't want to think
about it. But I don't think Mulan was a contributor.
So um well, that's a good transition into talking about
how masculinity is portrayed in this movie. I think that
it's mostly good points that are brought up, but I

(01:04:22):
do have some thoughts on it where I feel like
Mulan's character in many ways is presented as a direct
challenge to like Musho, who is a character that I'm like,
I honestly am like on the rewatch, I'm like not
very attached to because he is, like the joke is

(01:04:42):
that he's very fixated on his own size, and the
joke is that he's kind of misogynist. But we like
him and like I kind of had it with that,
and like whatever, Eddie Murphy's warming up for Donkey and
we salute him. But in general, I mean, I like
those scenes where Mulan is presented with traditional masculinity, which

(01:05:05):
is like sweaty and aggressive and mean, and she's kind
of like you, I hate that I have to she
resents that she has to participate in it. Uh. There's
that scene where Musha is talking her through her first
interaction as a man with a man, and it's like
she punches him in the face and she slaps his
ass and that's the whole interaction and it like sort

(01:05:28):
of works and you're just like okay. But and then
there's that other um. The other interaction that Mulan has
that I feel like is in complete challenge to the
masculinity presented by the soldiers is when they're singing a
girl We're fighting for a song that I have problems
with but where Mulan's only line in that song and
she's like, how about a girl that has a brain

(01:05:51):
that always speaks her mind? And everyone's like like fuck you.
Like that was the moment where I was like female
comic where it's like she's almost fit again, but then
she almost stands up for women and everyone's like, get
out of because the lines before that, they're like, we
want a woman who's really hot, who will you know,

(01:06:13):
really congratulate me on my masculinity, my battle scars, I
don't know, and then the one guy is like, I
don't care what she looks like, but she has to
cook me meals all the time, which is a fat joke.
Also on top of that, it's just that I've kind
of conflicted with how the soldiers that aren't Lee Shane
because I feel like he's in like romantic interest category.

(01:06:34):
But the three soldiers that she becomes friends with, there's
good things and there's bad things because by the end
they realized they should never have underestimated paying Mulan and
that a woman is capable of so much more than
what they were singing about. But ultimately it's kind of
I feel like, kind of falls into like the friendly

(01:06:54):
misogynist trope where we hear them there's a lot of
like constantly they're like, I want to woman, I am
very like committed to this style of soldier misogyny that
also feels very Western too. It's like very Western culture,
but we also love them and it's so it's like
they sort of learn a lesson at the end, but

(01:07:15):
I feel like it doesn't go far enough because they
are just like lovable misogynists. Ultimately, I think they're They're
supposed redeeming scene is at the end in the that
battle where Sheng You comes out and he's fighting Le
Shang and then the emperor's gone and they actively decide
to group around Mulan. And when they make that choice,

(01:07:37):
that's the that's the that's the choice that's supposed to
justify all the misogyny I think. And I it's like
and I like that it it laid lands somewhere, but
there's still a whole song about misogyny that thinking that
we know by heart. Yeah, And it's like somebody so
everything in a movie is intentional, nothing's accidental. Somebody was

(01:08:00):
It's paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for that song.
And then singers were also booked time separately to sing
that song, and then sound engineers were also paid to
miss that song. So when you think about how much
work it takes to put us on into the movie,
the question like does this misogyny the anthem have to

(01:08:20):
be in this movie about like empowering a young girl
who get three songs in this movie, and this is
one of the reflection make a man out of you
and girl they're trying at the beginning when there's the match.
I mean, twenty of the songs are aggressively misogynists the

(01:08:42):
first song, in the last song. So once again, I
don't want to sound like I'm defending anything that's bad,
but like I read that is one of the obstacles
that like Mulan has to overcome, is like misogyny, and
like that's why that song is there. Do we need
it there? Do those lyrics so doesn't doesn't have to

(01:09:02):
slap like to laugh. It's like they did too good
of a job with the misogyny anthem, And I feel
the same. I feel this. I feel the same way
about like I used to tell a joke about this
then and I was like I gotta grow up but
one of the best songs in Hunchback of Notre Dame
is the priest singing about how he wants to murder
a woman if she won't fuck him, and it slaps.

(01:09:26):
It's so it's such a good song and I know
every word, and you're like, this can't Like the villain
songs are always the best songs. Maybe we could interpret
this as the villain song. Maybe I feel the single song.
I mean, it's like, I feel like that is kind
of a great area. But like I feel like the
song with the worst message shouldn't slap the hardest. I

(01:09:48):
see your pointing. Yes, that's a new rule, putting it down.
I do has to be like not the best song. Yeah,
it should be like the collaboration between Phil Collins and Insane,
you know, like that should be the writing team behind this.
Is that it has to be there. It has to
be like mediocre and not memorable, because if it's good,

(01:10:11):
then you'll know all the words and you'll, like, whether
intentionally or not, sort of internalize it, you know. I do,
like though, where like Mulan's relationship with those like three
soldier friends of hers like lands, where they once they realize,
oh she is worth trusting. They get on her side again.
They dress and drag and then they like use the

(01:10:32):
method that she used to um like shimmy up the
poll during their training, so that gets called back to
that's how they like get into like the emperor's like
chambers so they can save him, like all that stuff.
So I at least like how Mulan has allies by
the end um, of course, none of them are women.
She has no female friends in this story. That's that's

(01:10:54):
the big failing of Well, no, I wouldn't call it
a failing because the story wasn't sort of meant for this,
that the myths and Mulan doesn't spread amongst young women
and make young women want to like take places for
their fathers and rewards, and that she Mulan remains an
exceptional woman. And that's like, that's always like the thing

(01:11:14):
that the pick me trope, you know, like where you
like pick me, I'm special, I'm not like these other girls,
And unfortunately Mulan does fall into I'm not like other
girl's territory. That's so that I mean, just you're saying that,
it's just like because we've been making fun of the
not like the other girl's trope for so long, but
the way you just for I mean, like it does

(01:11:34):
I feel like they're not like the other girl's trope.
There isn't really a not like the other guy's trope.
And I feel like that is a way to tell
women that you have to believe that you are the
only person who can do this as a way to
discourage you from encouraging other women to do the same
thing that you're doing. Like it it does feel like
I mean even in in our common experience of comedy,

(01:11:58):
like I was always fresh rated by like why are
all the like it's so easy for male comics to
make friends with each other. There's there seems to be
really not a lot of intense competition among them, where
when I was starting, I felt like female comics were
felt to be in competition because there were just less
spots for them, and so a defense tactic would be
and not like the other girls, like well what I

(01:12:20):
do is and what the other people do and it is.
I feel like it's like a patriarchal thing to be told,
like you have to be so confident in yourself that
you want to actively discourage other women women from doing
the same thing I mean, And I've been thinking about
this a lot lately, the idea of like not like

(01:12:41):
the other girls, and and what does that mean? Because
on one hand, like the way this movie partly frames
that idea, is Mulan kind of rejecting femininity in a
certain way, or at least the type of femininity that
is often forced on women by men in or by

(01:13:01):
patriarchal standards in that might make her seem like not
one of the other girls, but that's in a way
that like, that's her choice. She's expressing her authentic self,
you know, she's she might not be as feminine as
other women or you know whatever. But to me, I
didn't really have any problem with that the way it's

(01:13:25):
at least that specific aspect of it is depicted in
this movie, because um, the whole setup, like the whole
first act of this movie is us being shown Mulan
not fitting the mold of what's expected of a woman
and a bride in her community and culture, like you
know the world of this movie, Um, because what's expected

(01:13:45):
of a woman is to be quiet and delicate and obedient,
and you know, these porcelain doll wives who will bear
children and you know Mulan doesn't really want to participate
in that. Um. There's whole song, the you know, the
one that we forgot about, the You'll bring honor to us?
All I think is the name of it. But you know,

(01:14:06):
the lyrics are things like a girl can bring honor
to her family in one way by striking a good match.
This could be the day men want girls with good taste, calm, obedient,
who work fast paced, with good breeding in a tiny waist,
sing a Cain. I can't. I don't know that they're there,

(01:14:29):
I know, but I think that that song. I just
have such conflicted feelings about it because I feel like
that song is used to make every woman in the
movie to look bad. Yes, Like why is that? I know?
I feel like it comes from the same place. Yes,
the only ally to move on in her life even
remotely as her father. Right, Okay, yes, I agree with that.

(01:14:52):
I guess what I'm saying is just the idea of like,
you know, being yourself and if yourself is a little like,
you know, tomboyish, Sure, if you don't want to be
a wife, um, and like that's just like who you
are and what you want and like as long as
you're like not dismissing or judging other people who do
want that, which I don't think isn't is Yeah, so

(01:15:14):
I agree, there is like a conflicting message to be
had here because that whole setup serves to show like, yeah, Mulan,
isn't this like obedient, submissive woman. She's strong, she's outspoken,
she's smart, all that stuff. But it does end up
painting all those women who do like want to go
to the matchmaker and be matched with a husband. It
makes them seem like, oh, what fools. It paints them

(01:15:36):
very broadly. Yes, and to think about everything economically, because
every decision that these characters make in life is tied
to like how they're able to live. Is that the
women are making these choices because they have to marry
out of the family because the family can no longer
support them, you know. So it's like they literally are
getting married to live. That is that That's something that's

(01:15:58):
like in the first brush of this movie feels like
a choice. What's really not a choice? If it's frustrating
to see a movie of any I mean, and Mulan
is not the only movie to do this, and it's
not the worst offender of this, but to make it
seems like this is what women truly deeply want because
they are petty and vapid as opposed to like literally
this is the only way in this historical context to survive,

(01:16:19):
and there are complicated feelings that come with that. There
is an opportunity to show that with her mother and
her grandmother, but it just kind of ends up seeming
like they're not exactly shrewish, but like rigid in that
way of like. And I feel like, as a kid especially,
you don't fully understand where that's coming from, and the

(01:16:39):
movie doesn't really attempt to explain it to you know,
I think it's it's almost too complicated for the movie
to explain. But the place that comes from is does
feel shallow. I agree, Yeah, I don't know. I mean,
it's like it's but ultimately Mulan is the like the
best heroine in Disney Cannon up to this point, so
it's like you have to give it its due and

(01:17:01):
you know what else, she is the baldest woman in charge.
I even though she doesn't like shaver head or anything,
but she does cut her hair. That is like such
a great afe that montage. I'm like I'm like, it
does so much to like from it, And I'm like, oh,
this like glorifies going to war. But I'm like, but

(01:17:23):
I'm crying, so I don't know what I feel. It's
like Ultimately we do see her like making a gigantic
sacrifice for the patriarchal figure in her life to go
to war for them. But but you're also like, but
then she realizes, like, I did this for myself, So
I don't I love it? I mean, and the idea
of I've read a number of things that are about
gender performativity theory as it pertains to this movie. One

(01:17:47):
great analysis I read was independently published by writer named
Julianne Fung, who generally praises and argues that the main
theme of Mulan is a film is about gender performance.
She's she's using the hit She's using Judith Butler, you know,
like she's but but saying that basically, one of the
things that makes remarkable is that she recognizes that gender

(01:18:10):
is in many ways a performance, and she learns to
perform it too, and and then by the end of
the movie has like effectively convinced hyper masculine soldiers that
gender is a performance to the point where they're willing
to experiment with it themselves at the climax where they
dressed and drag very confidently and are successful, and you

(01:18:32):
can make an argument of like is a mockery being
made of them? Is it kind of played for laughs?
I think in if some ways it is in the
same way that the climax of the Lion King Toman
is wearing this little like grass skirt and he's like,
it's not totally great because it's a little bit of joke,
but it also like on paper, it's like these hyper

(01:18:53):
masculine soldiers are willing to play around with gender performativity
theory and like that doesn't happen a lot of that's
cool and they're not punished for it. They're successful. Yeah,
they they defeat the villain who's just advocating for socialized medicine. Um,
that's because because he's sick, he's jaundice. Why is medicare

(01:19:17):
for all? The villain? But I don't understand. Um. One
of my favorite lines in the movie is when um
Mulan like first shows up to like the boot camp
and she's something happens where she like punches one of
the guys to like try to fit in and like
be you know man. But um, she says, you know
how it is when you get those manly urges and
you just got to kill something because like she is,

(01:19:39):
it's like just you know, gender performance. The last thing
I wanted to say, just like something that I because
I've been trying to sort of keep up on as
it is recording. None of us have seen the new
Mulan movie. It's not out. I really hope that it's good.
They're the other ones have not been, I mean, but
it's also like they've all made money. They it's very

(01:20:01):
possible that it will be fine and make a billion dollars,
which is also like whatever I'll see it. I have
yet to see a live action adaptation in theaters. Um,
I've seen most of them and I have them, but
like this one, I will see because Mulan means I
think of this era the most to be out of

(01:20:22):
any of them, but it is there is still it
seems like that persistent problem of this movie is trying
to be a negotiation between the American and Chinese film industry.
Is the two most powerful film industries on the planet,
and from what I have read, about the plot of
this movie. There have been narrative changes, but all of
them that I've read about, you're just kind of like,

(01:20:44):
is that better or is it just different? Where in
this adaptation the idea of arranged marriage is really really
pushed when it's like this was never even a part
of the source material, Like it's really frustrating, and it
seems like what the live action adaptation is referring to
instead of the source material, which is more progressive than adaptation,

(01:21:09):
as it's referring to an earlier draft of adaptation that
was scrapped. Because what I found in my research was
the first pitch of this movie is that she that
Mulan is betrothed to Lee Shang, and that through resentment

(01:21:29):
of the person she's betrothed to, she's motivated to pose
as a man to get out of an arranged marriage,
which is, however, you feel about it, very different from
the source material, and that seems to be and I
don't know what the exact but it seems like it's
instead of it's just like, man, something written in ancient

(01:21:50):
times is more progressive than what we're doing now. Just
fucking Christ. There's an alternative version of her love interests,
which is that she was. It's actually a really progressive
vision of love, which is something I don't think about
with ancient Chinese stories. But she's engaged. She's one of
the most beautiful women, most accomplished women in the village,

(01:22:10):
and she's engaged to a man who appreciates her unconditionally,
and even though they're absolutely in love with each other
and he's like literally Mr Perfect, she breaks the engagement
to save her dad. It's like fully like seeded choices
as an individual, So she breaks her perfect engagement with

(01:22:31):
her perfect man to go save her dad. And then
during the course of the battle, she meets her fiance again.
And by this time, because her fiance is such an
amazing man, he's the military strategist in this war, so
she has to hide from him because she's like in
full drag as a man. So in her sort of

(01:22:52):
hidden agenda where she's on a different side of the
mountain from him so that he can't out her. That's
how she defeats the enemies, because she's in the right
place at the right time, which is also like, how
do I feel it's more interesting than this idea that
I just read. Wow, I'm like, I need to take
a second on that one. The last thing that I

(01:23:14):
had to say was just a funny uh anecdote that
just I think just like speaks to how rigid the
Disney formula was, especially at this time, where it's like
female protagonist has to sing a song about what she
wants at the beginning. She has an animal sidekick and
a secondary animal sidekick. This is like well documented in

(01:23:35):
all of them. I think it's most clearly taken from Bocahunas,
where you have Miko the Raccoon and Flit the bird.
There's two and Mulan is a copy paste of that,
where I guess that like like executives were pushing the
cricket so much. No one wanted the cricket. Everyone was like,
the cricket doesn't do anything, cricket can't talk. Why is
the cricket here? Everyone, including the two sis had white

(01:23:55):
male directors, were like, we don't want the cricket. Uh.
Director Barry Temple said quote the directors didn't want the
cricket in the movie. A story department didn't want the
cricket in the movie. The only people who wanted him
in the movie were Michael Eisner had to cricket when
I was a chod. Then Harry Tumble says, I was
sitting meetings and they'd say, well, where's the cricket during

(01:24:16):
all this, and someone would say, fuck the cricket. So
just if you're wondering why the cricket is very spark
because everyone was just like, we don't know what to
do with the cricket. You have Eddie Murphy, what more
do you want from us? I mean the cricket is
lu shue sidekick, was your psychick. He's like a forced

(01:24:38):
to your sidekick. Justice for the Cricket. He knows how
to right. We see him like writing something on the
lead can read. He can read and write. He's very educated. Yeah,
why can't we in Justice for the Cricket? No one
wanted going back to the live action thing. Um the
live action Milan seems to have eliminated the villain of
Sean you uh and added instead a witch. Um, the

(01:25:01):
hawk or the falcon or whatever type of bird that
is that we see in the animated version is now
a witch who can anamorphe into this bird. It needs
to be seen whether this is a good idea. I mean,
it adds another female character, but I could be violence exactly.
Goldie is amazing, so I'm here for it, good good um.

(01:25:24):
And then Mulan seems to have a sister now, as
referenced in one of the trailers, so I don't know
hard to say how important that character will be, but
they seem to be doing what all these live action
Disney movies are doing, which is like add some female characters,
some female friends for you know, the women the female
protagonist in the movie to like appease fans. Probably um well,

(01:25:48):
and I'm glad that we are seeing. And it's also
a female director of the new Mulan movie, although there's
still she is a white lady from New zeal And.
So I feel like it kind of remains to be
seen to how effective this adaptation will be. I feel
like there is a lot of and Lyndsay once again,

(01:26:11):
Queen Lindsay Ellis has done and excellent if kind of
like oh no to watch video essays about the kind
of woke ifying of these Disney reboots and how meaningful
is it and how much of it is motivated by
money and just saying things that modern audience is wanting
to hear, while still not ultimately like updating what their

(01:26:35):
values are. So we'll see, we'll see. I want to
be I'm I'm cautiously optimistic. But we've but five of
these movies have come out and none of them have
been good. I hope it's good. Um does a movie
pass the Bechtel test? I don't think so. I actually
forgot to pay attention once again. I think, yeah, the
grandma and the mom might have had a conversation about Mulan,

(01:26:59):
which technically passes the Bechdel test, right, I think it depends.
I think on this on not like strictly like it
may pass once, but the context of what they're talking
about is always marriage and marriage. I feel like it
doesn't pass. I don't know. I was reading in the
forums of like there's been more so than almost any

(01:27:20):
other movie I've ever checked on this because I thought
at the end, I was like, I don't really know,
and then I checked in the forums and people are
back and forth. A lot of people are like, technically yes,
some people say that the female ancestors talk to each other,
but we don't know whe their names are, so for
us doesn't pass. I'm going to say that it for me,
it doesn't pass. And I think that that's a testament

(01:27:41):
to mentor the fact that this is a movie where
we have a very strong female protagonist who has no
women to talk to. Right because even the conversations between women,
either whether it's you know, Milan and her mother or
grandmother or the matchmaker, the context, like we said, of
almost every one of those conversations, even though there might
be like two line in exchanges where a man's name

(01:28:02):
isn't mentioned, the context of the entire conversation will still
be like are you primped enough to be a bride?
Kind of thing to a man. I think that this
is kind of a movie ultimately that I to my
grave will defend Mulan. I love Mulan the person, but
I think in terms of how this movie portrays women,

(01:28:22):
it ultimately is like the exceptional woman and not that
women are exceptional. Yes, yes, indeed, that's always way of
putting it. That's my pull quote. Also, that is that
is what I'd like for you to put on a
T shirt. Um, bye bye. Well, that brings us to
our nipple scale, serified nipples, basiness representation of women. Um.

(01:28:45):
I mean, all things considered, it does a pretty good job,
at least compared to other comparable Disney Renaissance movies, it is,
you know, the most empowering one to date. And then
you know, then Molanna came up along where well, but
Molanna came along almost twenty years later, and Molana isn't perfect,
which contrary to our critique. Um, But like I said,

(01:29:10):
I wish I had had this movie to grow up with.
Um Instead, I like latched onto a Little Mermaid and
we already talked about how many problems that movie has. Um,
I think I'll give it a three. Um, I'm that
might be a little too generous or maybe not generous enough.
Sometimes I really miss fire on the new Nipple rating.
And you know, it's a hard metric, but you know,

(01:29:31):
I think the way that it subverts a lot of
the tropes, specifically of Disney movies, while it also adheres
to a lot of kind of the you know, problematic
things that we've already discussed. Yeah, I think I'll stick
with a three. Ummulan is a character is terrific. I
hope this live action reboot does her even more justice.
Um remains to be seen, But three nipples, Um, I

(01:29:54):
will give one of them to shang Um and his
visit bowl nipples. Um, I will give well and then
I'll just give the other two to Milan. I'm gonna
know three and a half on this. I'm also very
biased towards this movie because it's like one of those
movies that I have seen a million times and it

(01:30:16):
feels very like in my DNA of just how much
I love it. But I feel like for its time,
this is as progressive as children's media was getting on
a mass scale. I think that like young just young
people in general seeing this movie like got a view
of a female protagonist that they really had never gotten

(01:30:37):
on a mass scale prior to this point. She is
never a damsel in distress. She is very motivated. She
is amazing. I feel like the main fault of this
movie is not letting that inspire the women around her
and making her. I feel like it almost is kind
of oppressive to isolate her as the exception to the
rule rather than someone who could inspire the women around her. Um.

(01:31:01):
And plus the other thing I mean, I think the
way that the Huns are portrayed is like flat out racist. Um,
the fact that this movie was directed biasis at white
men and majority written by them, and the more you
learn about them, the less good it gets. Um, there's
a lot of classic Disney faults going on here, but
I think that they, in spite of a lot of stuff,

(01:31:24):
they managed to pull up. I think maybe they're most
progressive movie to date at this time, and at least
a lot of them. A lot of the cast are
voiced by Asian actors, a lot, but not all of them.
Not all of them, but more than I expected, honestly
when I went through The Soldiers, right, yes, so you're like, uh,

(01:31:52):
you know, you know, Eddie Murphy's warming up for Donkey whatever. Like,
there's a lot of stuff in this movie that's of
its time, such as the Steve You Wonder ninety degrees
collapse couldn't have happened in any year. But ultimately I
think it's net positive. I would happily show this movie
to a young person today. Um, I think it super
holds up and it's kind of I don't know it.

(01:32:15):
It definitely changed my perspectives at the time, and it's great.
I love it. Three and a half nips to Go
to Mulan one and a half ago photo realistically to
Lei Shang so I think I will do three nips
Mulan to to Mulan one to Lei Shang being portrayed

(01:32:38):
as a leading man Asian love interest, which is pretty
rare in all movies across all American like filmmaking history. Um,
nipple really taken away for just a weird mash up
of Asia they presented. Sure, I feel like they could
have definitely done more research, just been a little bit

(01:32:59):
more specific. Just um, I don't know, asked one Chinese
person other than the one Chinese like woman of Chinese
descent who worked on this movie. Yeah, or in the
on the writing to well otherwise thoroughly enjoyable, really love
this movie. Yeah, sure, well seta thank you so much
for being here, having me, having you. Um, what would

(01:33:22):
you like to plug? Where can people follow you? I am?
I am working on a lot of things, but none
of them are pluggable, So you just follow me on
my Twitter at Slowbear s l O B E A R. Nice, amazing,

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Mulan (1998) with Ceda Xiong