National Treasure: Book of Secrets

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
On the Bechdel Cast, the questions ask if movies have
women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zephy Beast
start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
We're back at it again, Jamie. A clue that leads
to another clue that leads to another clue that leads
to us.

Speaker 3 (00:24):
Finally reuniting with Helen Mirren. Because wasn't that really the
full thing we had to do the whole time?

Speaker 2 (00:32):
Yes, yes it was, It's true. Hi, Welcome to the
Bechdel Cast. My name is Caitlin Dorante, my.

Speaker 3 (00:41):
Name is Jamie Loftus, and this is our podcast where
we talk about important entries in cinema and talk about
how they relate to an intersectional feminist perspective. And boy,
do we have a feminist text for you? Humdinger. So

(01:01):
on the fourth of July. Because you know, we're reasonable people,
we don't feel that there's a ton to celebrate. However,
the movies, they feel different. The movies really want you
to think that there's a ton to celebrate. So we
try over the years to line up this week with

(01:23):
a movie that is very American coded for better or
for worse. Really, last year we did idiocrity an attempt
at I forgot.

Speaker 2 (01:35):
We did that for like a fourth of July episode.

Speaker 3 (01:39):
Yeah. Yeah, So last year we did Mike Judge's valiant
attempt to comment on the state of America that just
ended up revealing that he hated poor people. This year,
we're going for the Millennial Generations attempt at Indiana Jones.
We're heading back in to the National Treasure expand universe.

(02:00):
And I've got to say this movie has more to
say than idiocrasy for me. Sure this movie Caitlin Derante
made half a billion dollars.

Speaker 2 (02:11):
It really did, and we celebrate that.

Speaker 3 (02:15):
We celebrate And what do American celebrate more than something
ridiculous making half a billion dollars. Yeah, it's something that
we love to see over here. But first we should
talk about what this podcast is.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
Yes, we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using
the Bechdel Test as a jumping off point. It is
a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes
called the Bechdel Wallace Test. It originally appeared in Alison
Bechdel's Decks to Watch out For in nineteen eighty five

(02:51):
as just like a bit a one off joke that
appeared in a strip of hers and has since been
kind of co opted to be this grand metric. There
are many versions of it. The one we use is
this two people of a marginalized gender have to have names,

(03:12):
they must speak to each other, and their conversation has
to be about something other than a man, and we
particularly appreciate it when it is a narratively substantial conversation. However,
we decided a few caveats, such as it does pass

(03:34):
the Bechdel test when Nicholas Cage declares that he is
going to kidnap the president of the United States.

Speaker 3 (03:41):
Which is a huge relief because the movie may not
in factest the bechel test without that important caveat that
we made to save this feminist text exactly unfair criticism.

Speaker 2 (03:53):
Well, there's another caveat that we agreed upon, which is
that it also passes the Bechdel test when Nicholas Cage
screams at a male child.

Speaker 3 (04:03):
Yes, because that feels like a real close study of
different generations of masculinity in combat with one another in
a lighthearted yet impactful way.

Speaker 2 (04:15):
It was cinema at its finest.

Speaker 3 (04:19):
I really hope that entire I mean, I know it
wasn't because that child actor. I mean not to put
the child actor on the spot, but it would have
been very hard for the child actor to improvise that
dialogue exchange. But it felt so organic. Those are my

(04:39):
founding fathers, both CAG and that kid. So today we're
covering I think maybe one of our generation's most jingoistic franchises,
National Treasure. We've covered National Treasure one, not that you asked,
but we've already done it so before. I mean, Caitlin,
what's your history with National Treasure? Book of Secrets? Yes,

(05:04):
Book of Secrets will and we can't forget the really
important oh my gosh, and really great subtitle.

Speaker 2 (05:10):
It's about a secret book, Book of Secrets. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 3 (05:15):
I kind of forgot what the Book of Secrets was
and so I was rewatching it.

Speaker 2 (05:20):
So my history with this movie is that I watched
it when we covered the first National Treasure movie, which
I think was the first episode we released after Lockdown
in March twenty twenty.

Speaker 3 (05:34):
Yeah, because we're like, this is going to be over
in a second, let's have a little bit of fun. Yeah,
and then it turned out it's still happening. We're not
going to harp on it today. Yeah, but yes, yes,
National Treasure was a movie that came to us during
a time of need.

Speaker 2 (05:51):
Yeah, and so I watched the sequel then. So that
was about three years ago, and I haven't really thought
about it since. But then I I rewatched it with
our good friend Bryant like ten days ago, which is
part of why I pitched we do this now.

Speaker 3 (06:08):
Yes, and I'm glad you did. Yeah, and now more
than ever, more than ever.

Speaker 2 (06:12):
We need to discuss National Treasure, Book of Secrets. So
I've seen it a handful of times. Now I think
it's not a good movie, but I also love it,
so shrug.

Speaker 3 (06:25):
Yeah, I feel about the same way I saw this
movie in theaters for sure. Wow, uh brag, I remember,
I even this was one of the things where I remember,
I vividly remember a trailer moment when it happened in
the movie. Trailer moment when Justin and Bartha says it's
a little Golden Man, and then classic Bartha trailer moment.

(06:47):
Oh and Bartha is on for this. He really is
he once again steals the show. We love to see him,
and again, I feel like we constantly have to qualify
as of this recording, as far as we know, Justin
Bertha is a normal man. True. But yeah, I remember
seeing the trailer. I was fourteen. I was stoked to

(07:10):
see National Treasure two with my friends, which I did,
and I loved it even at the time, I feel like,
and listeners, let me know, I feel like, even at
the time, as a fourteen year old, I registered this
as whatever a fourteen year old would call something campy, Like,
I recognized that this was not a triumph, which is

(07:30):
not how I felt about National Treasure one. I thought
National Treasure one triumph. Sure, National Treasure two I thought silly,
But you know, I'm going to see it with my
damn friends and I'm gonna love every second of it.
And so it was. Yeah, I did not remember this
movie as well as I remember the first one. I
haven't seen it as many times. It's probably my third

(07:52):
viewing of it. Ever. I also still have yet to
see There was a mini series, I think maybe Misguided
mini series that was released around the National Treasure franchise. Yeah,
on Disney Plus. I have not watched it either. I
think Bartha came back. Yeah, let me did Bartha return?
Let me investigate. Bartha was on season four of Atlanta.

(08:16):
I don't know if you saw his appearance.

Speaker 2 (08:18):
I have not made it that far into the show.
Hang on National Treasure.

Speaker 3 (08:23):
Oh, and he's in the Good Fight. I haven't seen it.

Speaker 2 (08:25):
Okay, So National Treasure. Edge of History is the series
from another good subtitles, Yes, from twenty twenty two. Let's
see who is in the cast. Justin Bartha is there.
I can't tell how important of a character he is.

Speaker 3 (08:43):
It's just a guest star though. It's kind of like
a David Crumbholtz and the Santa claus is.

Speaker 2 (08:49):
Which is utter bullshit.

Speaker 3 (08:50):
Yeah, it's that's why we don't watch Disney Plus mini
series because we did watch the Santa Clauses and we
need to break Catherine Sata Jones is in this damn thing.

Speaker 2 (09:00):
She is? And then a bunch of people who I
do not recognize.

Speaker 3 (09:05):
Jake Austin Walker. Sure that's a person. We'll see about
that anyways. Yeah, I don't know who's in there. Oh,
Harvey Kaitel comes back for a guest spot. That's fun. No, Cage.
Harvey loves I mean this franchise. He really does. And
even though he's barely in this installment, which I guess
we'll get to, not that he's really it's so weird

(09:27):
that he's even in this one, because you're just like,
why is he there? Why is he there? I mean
glad to see Harvey's kitel get a check. I guess
why not? But yeah, I saw it. I enjoyed it.
I think I seen it one other time and I
forgot so many elements. I will say, well, this movie

(09:47):
is definitely not good in the traditional sense, and it
is certainly not good for the purposes of this our
podcast that we've been doing for seven years. Yes, definitely not.
I will say that this does deliver as far as
a sequel goes for me, because it's such a high
concept franchise. Nicholas Cage has to steal an American artifact

(10:12):
that is, you're not supposed to steal and find a
map on it, and you're like, how does he do that? Twice?
I feel like this movie effectively raises the stakes. In
the first one, he has to steal the Declaration of Independence. Famously,
that's difficult. The second one he turns up the difficulty
level and he does several things, but he most importantly

(10:32):
another trailer moment, I'm going to kidnap the President of
the United States, which he does. Yeah, and the President,
not for nothing, loves every second of it. Spoiler alert,
The President loves being kidnapp by Nicholas Cage. Can't get
enough of it instantly, Yes, like, don't get him in trouble.
I love this guy. And then he finds the city

(10:53):
of Gold underneath Mount Rushmore. Now we have to get
into what the hell's going on there, but I do
think on its face they managed to do it. Again.
He is finding maps places you wouldn't believe.

Speaker 2 (11:08):
Yeah, he goes from stealing a piece of paper to
stealing a human being.

Speaker 3 (11:13):
He steals a whole guy, and then on top of
that keeps being like, I'm not kidnapping you, which he is.
And then there's a book of Secrets. Also Riley in
this movie. I was very I was like, wow, Riley
also has close friends who haven't read his book yet. Okay,
that's very me coded. I was really relating to Riley.

(11:33):
I think the president should give me a really nice
car tax free. Yeah, well, a weird post credit scene.
Riley was on all cylinders here. Abigail once again done dirty.
No justice for Abigail, not that we expected it, but
we get we get a second woman, Helen Mirren. That's
another sequel thing. We gotta get a second woman in there.

(11:53):
But don't worry, We're not gonna let her do anything.

Speaker 2 (11:55):
Nope.

Speaker 3 (11:56):
I just I think that this movie is such a
a seque for better and for worse. It does the
same thing, but more and twice.

Speaker 2 (12:05):
It's incredible.

Speaker 3 (12:06):
I truly laughed out loud. The shot where again spoilers
for those who haven't seen National Treasure two Book of Secrets,
The shot where they panned down from the Eiffel Tower
and then zoom in on the tiny statue of Liberty.
I was such a hard fast zoom and the music
like like, oh my god, Americans are so sick in

(12:29):
their heads. Everything's about them. It's just disgusting and hilarious
in this movie. I just Ben Gates, I swear to
and and not I.

Speaker 2 (12:40):
Mean Benjamin Franklin Gates.

Speaker 3 (12:44):
It's like right up there with Larry Geely and all
time worse character names for anything. And then another horrible
justin Bartha movie quick Justin Bartha thingcause we're talking about it.
I didn't know because I was just I was on
side this weekend talking to my talk and talk and
talking about Justin Bartha and how I was thinking about him.

(13:07):
And someone was like, oh, yeah, don't you remember when
he dated Ashley Olsen? I didn't.

Speaker 2 (13:12):
We always forget this.

Speaker 3 (13:14):
We history, much like what happened was going on with
Thomas Gates. History does not. American history doesn't want us
to remember Justin Bartha's relationship with Ashley Olsen. However, I
loved I sent it to you. I just looked up
because I was like, when did they even date? They
broke up in twenty eleven. The alleged reason for the
breakup was that Justin Bartha was partying too much on

(13:35):
the set of Hangover too she was, which is a
very twenty eleven reason to break up with someone. Couldn't
have happened any other year.

Speaker 2 (13:43):
No, it's like us discover, like we go through this
like series of clues and puzzles to discover that Justin
Bartha and Ashley Olsen dated, And it's such a revelation
each and every time we learn this.

Speaker 3 (13:59):
I kidnapped Bob Iger to get this information. I was like,
where's the book? I okay, the present? That was one
thing I've I've tried to fact check a number There
have been a number of articles that have you know,
attempted to fact check the historical you know, value of

(14:20):
national treasure too, Not that it really matters, you know,
because most of American history is fucking made up?

Speaker 2 (14:27):
Right? Yeah, how do you even fact check revised history exactly?

Speaker 3 (14:32):
So you might? Sure, why not to a lot of
this bullshit? But I couldn't get a straight answer on
whether the president does indeed have a book of secrets
where every secret from American history is written.

Speaker 2 (14:49):
Longhand crammed into this like leather bound book.

Speaker 3 (14:55):
Also, if I was Riley, I would be absolutely beside
myself because Riley is this close to knowing whether Kennedy
assassination conspiracies are true, and Nick Cage is like, there's
no time and like we gotta find a second, Like comes.

Speaker 2 (15:09):
On, yeah, seriously, the moon landing?

Speaker 3 (15:11):
Come on?

Speaker 2 (15:12):
I have to know what was the whole thing with
page thirty seven? Was that just like setting up a
sequel or did we actually find anything out about it? Well?

Speaker 3 (15:19):
Page forty seven I don't know. I wonder if that
comes back in Edge of History page forty seven. Yeah,
I think that that was setting up a sequel because
there was for sure supposed to be a third one,
because this movie made half a billion dollars. I don't
really know why there wasn't a third one in the moment,
Maybe Nicholas Cage got too busy with what would he

(15:42):
have even been doing. Also, these movies, it is like
kind of sick to me that Alfred Bolina did not
make his way into this franchise.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
This feels like, yeah, we talked about this on the
last episode.

Speaker 3 (15:52):
Yeah. I mean it's like it's so Indiana Jones coded
to begin with Yeah that like he'd fit right in.
I know, let's find out why there wasn't a sequel.
There was, there was a novelization, and I also love
that there was a There's a whole section of the
Wikipedia page called historical accuracy like be serious, okay sow

(16:13):
okay in made two thousand and eight. John Turtletobb confirmed
that there would be additional National Treasure movies, but acknowledged
the creative team needed time on the second sequel. I
don't know why, because the first sequel was awesome. I
guess it just like kind of went to production.

Speaker 2 (16:30):
Hell damn it.

Speaker 3 (16:32):
Yeah, it's it's a damn shame because I remember, like, okay,
January twenty twenty, the last time we discussed this movie.
In twenty twenty, the third one was on the way,
and then it turned into the series, a bullshit series
which no one watches those and it's they always suck, unfortunately.
But the fun thing is that there is a second

(16:55):
one and that everyone in the world thowt because it
made half a billion dollars in two thousand and seven.
That is so wild. Should we love this movie? Sorry?

Speaker 2 (17:08):
Should I recap it?

Speaker 3 (17:09):
For sure?

Speaker 2 (17:10):
Okay, let's take a quick break first, and then we'll
come back to recap and we're back.

Speaker 3 (17:21):
Okay, So at the very beginning, I think if with
your permission, please, because the beginning is sort of frontloaded
with all the history stuff. Yes, so I will try
to share what I know, Okay, part of which I
independently research. But I would also like to share the
very defensive historical accuracy section of the Wikipedia, which mostly

(17:45):
clarifies small points that don't make much of a difference
to me. But you can let me know, I've kind
of on the historical accuracy side surprisingly fall very much
and leave National Treasure to Book of Secrets alone in
some ways, at least in the opening sequence.

Speaker 2 (18:03):
Sure, all right, okay, So here's what we see in
that sequence. We are in Washington, DC. Ever heard of it?
It's eighteen sixty five. A mysterious man who we will
find out is John Wilkes Booth, along with another man.

Speaker 3 (18:20):
They made him hot.

Speaker 2 (18:23):
John is sexy in this. He and another man approach
Thomas Gates and his young son. Now John Wilkes Booth
wants Thomas Gates to decode a cipher.

Speaker 3 (18:38):
It's a family tradition. They all see this. There is
a version of this franchise that is just like a
family curse where all these women throughout history have to
deal with these fucking guys who see maps where there
shouldn't be maps. But then they're right, and what a
nightmare that must be.

Speaker 2 (18:57):
Yeah, you're really signing up for a lot when you
marry a gatesman.

Speaker 3 (19:03):
You're gonna be like, enough with the maps, I've had it.
And then sure, a shit, there's a damn map.

Speaker 2 (19:11):
Yep. Okay, So as old Tommy Gates is solving this cipher.
John Wilkes Booth leaves to go into a theater and
he assassinates President Lincoln on screen.

Speaker 3 (19:25):
Famously, again disrespectful, who gives a shit? So I wanted
to acknowledge the guy sitting with Thomas Gates is revealed
if you, like me, got a public American education and
would not be told about things like this, is a

(19:45):
member of the Nights of the Golden Circle. This is
a real thing. Okay, So I'm kind to share from
scholarly journal Wikipedia what it says. It feels very weird
and defensive to me. Okay. The Knights of the Golden
Circle had actually disbanded in eighteen sixty three. It was
based in Ohio, where its founder resided. Though a native
of Virginia, Bickley, the founder, had actually been known for

(20:07):
being an adventurer. His main focus was not on preserving
the Confederate States of America, but restoring slavery in southern
neighboring countries that he wanted to make a part of
a proposed nation dubbed the Golden Circle. While some members
of the group would join the Confederate Army, Bickley was
more focused on colonizing parts of northern Mexico as slave states.

(20:28):
And you're like, well, as far as the purposes of
this movie is concerned, that's still an exceptionally horrible, horrific person.
I don't know why we need it clarified.

Speaker 2 (20:40):
Like, actually, he was horrible in a different way. Actually,
you should have been more specific about it. You're like, no,
I think that they did a fine job, and he
was a.

Speaker 3 (20:51):
Real like he was evil was the he is. I mean,
you can't get more bad guy than the couple of
sentences I just read. Anyways, I just wasn't aware that
the Knights of the Golden Circle. I like, that was not,
at least in my memory. It was not a part
of my knowledge of the Civil War. So already I'm.

Speaker 2 (21:11):
Learning I did not learn about that either. So Thomas
Gates realizes that these men who have approached him are
members of this Knights of the Golden Circle. He knows
that they're bad guys, and one of them shoots Thomas Gates,
but not before Thomas rips pages out of John Wilkes

(21:31):
Booth's diary, including the page with the cipher on it.

Speaker 3 (21:35):
Very confusing sequence.

Speaker 2 (21:37):
Throws those pages into the fire the bad guy pulls
the papers out of the fire, or at least one
of them, and runs off. And then in Thomas Gates's
dying breath to his son, his son, he says the
debt that all men pay, and then Weld dead right.

Speaker 3 (22:00):
You are just like, Okay, the beginning of the National
Treasure movie is always confusing, yes, and it's always one
of these damn guys solving a puzzle and then it's ugh,
fucking whatever. But yeah, so that whole period, there's also
like some people kind of getting really particular about I'll

(22:20):
just run through stuff about John Wilkes Booth. You're like,
who what? There is a secret basement under George Washington's
home at Mount Vernon apparently, so something to think about.
I don't know, I'll keep going. But oh, and there

(22:40):
may have been cipher solvers just like Thomas Gates working
during the Civil War, so this is basically and John
Wilkes Booth's diary did have multiple pages missing from it,
so this is in many ways a documentary. Yeah, except
for all of the jingoistic parts that take place in
two thousand and seven. Those are not cannon. But the
whole beginning I think is historically.

Speaker 2 (23:02):
Accurate, okay, perfect, love to hear it, love to see it, okay.
So then we flash forward to Benjamin Franklin Gates aka
Ben Gates aka Nicholas Cage, who is giving a Ted
talk or something about the Nights of the Golden Circle
and the Booth Diary.

Speaker 3 (23:23):
He brought his dad to school, and you're just like,
needs to get over themselves. The Gates family, Hubris, I
think is very on the table for discussion because it's like,
get over yourself, what have you accomplished? And then they
kidnapped the president, so.

Speaker 2 (23:42):
They accomplished a lot. So someone attending this presentation, Mitch
Wilkinson played by James Harris.

Speaker 3 (23:51):
I totally forgot Ed Harris was in this movie. Yeah,
but what a interesting jump scare to have him be like.

Speaker 2 (23:59):
At actually my great great granddaddy aka a Confederate general
who's awesome, and everyone's like, yeah, wow, what a respectable person.

Speaker 1 (24:10):
I know.

Speaker 3 (24:10):
Yeah, that's one of the first things where you're just
like Jesus fucking Christ. It reminded me of I guess
this was sort of something that was popular in two
thousand and seven, those videos where it was like stand
up comedian owns audience member. But it's like random man
at Ted Talk owns Nicholas Cage.

Speaker 2 (24:32):
That's exactly what happens. Because Mitch is like, what do
you think happened to those missing pages of the Booth Diary? Well,
I have them right here, and they prove that your ancestor,
Thomas Gates, it was his idea to assassinate President Lincoln.

Speaker 3 (24:49):
And you're like, huh what, And then cut to the
next scene. The whole audience is gone. We don't get
to see how people react to this. For some reason,
the information seems to remain fairly contained for a while.
It's baffling, but I'm fully engaged. Yeah, sitting my ass

(25:11):
down and I'm listening.

Speaker 2 (25:13):
You're like, okay, what's next? Tell me more? Yeah, So
Thomas Gates's name is on one of these pages of
the Booth Diary, and it makes it seem like he
was the mastermind behind the assassination. And so now Ben
Gates and his daddy, Patrick Gates played by John Hooyt

(25:35):
again have to prove that their ancestor, Thomas Gates, was
innocent and not the mastermind behind Lincoln's assassination.

Speaker 3 (25:44):
And it's like, get a life job, but they don't
need to get a job because they have all the
national treasure from the last movie, which were reminded by
this big ass house that he.

Speaker 2 (25:57):
And Abigail is like a full ass.

Speaker 3 (26:00):
Also, I know he's about to come into the mix,
but I felt that. Okay, first of all, very two
thousand and seven choice to have ty Burrell in this movie,
all but disrespectful. I think as someone who had a
big crush on ty Burrell. Oh, I love a guy
with big old eyebrows. But to put him in two

(26:23):
scenes not very nice. Yeah, he's really disappeared.

Speaker 2 (26:28):
Well, Modern Family hadn't come out yet, so he wasn't
He wasn't big enough, probably.

Speaker 3 (26:33):
Made to be seventeen dollars doing it.

Speaker 2 (26:37):
For Tie for Tie.

Speaker 3 (26:39):
They just made him like horny and weird. And then
they're like, all right, I think he served his purpose.
Let's get him out of there. Anyways, we'll get back
to that because that is connected to the zero movement
on making Abigail, letting Abigail. Have they let her drive
a car in this one.

Speaker 2 (26:57):
That's true.

Speaker 3 (26:58):
That's about as far as it gets. Yep, bars on
the floor.

Speaker 2 (27:03):
Okay, So then we cut to Riley Pool and.

Speaker 3 (27:07):
We're like, that's Justin Bartha best care. We're screaming, we
love him, We're crying. He's at borders, okay, two thousands
borders because he has written his own book of secrets
about the Templar Treasure aka the plot of National Treasure one.

Speaker 2 (27:22):
But no one is buying his book, and his car
gets towed and he owes all these back taxes and
he's not doing so hot with the ladies.

Speaker 3 (27:33):
Classic these are hashtag Riley problems. I love him so much,
even though he is canonically kind of a creep and
always feels bad for himself. It's yeah, all these all
these women coming up being like, why aren't you Nicholas Cage,
And I'm like, open your eyes, ladies, before you stands

(27:55):
a real hunk. Justin Bartha's right there. Bartha's right there.
He's he's so hard on the set of Hangover Too.

Speaker 2 (28:03):
It's gonna end his relationship, but he's gonna party so
hard he gets dumped. Okay, So Riley helps Ben break
into his own house because Ben's girlfriend aka Abigail Chase
played by Diane Krueger. But I always forget his German. Yes, correct, Yes,
she has kicked Ben out of the house, out of

(28:24):
their enormous estate.

Speaker 3 (28:25):
Good for her. He's annoying, he's so.

Speaker 2 (28:28):
Oh my gosh, I can't wait to talk about their relationship.

Speaker 3 (28:30):
Wildly obnoxious. I would also kick him out.

Speaker 2 (28:32):
Yeah, so Ben needs to steal Abigail's work badge because
she still works at the archives or maybe she works
at the Library of Congress.

Speaker 3 (28:42):
Now, oh literally, I don't know. She has like a
plot job, like she has an ID that can get
them to the next map, yeah without fail correct. Yeah,
that was a bad that That was the first kind
of I mean, Riley doesn't fuck up super often in
this movie, but the fact that his first act is
helping Ben break into a house where he's no longer welcome.

Speaker 2 (29:08):
And then Nicholas Cage will get to this, but he
goes on this whole tirade about why she kicked him out,
and then Riley said something like, ugh, women, you can't
live with them, especially when they change the security code
or whatever, and we're.

Speaker 3 (29:25):
Just like hilarious, George Bush is the President's Comedy Like ugh, Yeah,
did not like that sequence very much.

Speaker 2 (29:37):
No, so Ben is stealing the work badge because he
wants to take another look at this page from the
Booth Diary because they think that if they can find
a cipher on it, it will lead to a treasure
map that will prove Thomas Gates's innocence somehow. It's a

(30:00):
I'll understand the connection.

Speaker 3 (30:01):
I am so team Abigail on this because you're just
like because she I mean, I think I've I've gotten
into the habit of doing this where I'm like pitching
a sun Dance movie based off of a blockbuster where
she's just like she loves Ben, but he just like
will not give up the idea that there's a map

(30:22):
on fucking everything, and it ends up like completely deteriorating,
deteriorating his life and their relationship because she's just like,
it's over, man, you had your moment in the sun.
You found the map. There's not maps everywhere, but that's
not how this world works. No, there are maps everywhere.

Speaker 2 (30:39):
His obsession with maps being on everything should be the
hymn partying too hard on the set of Hangover too
which it should be always should end that relationship, but.

Speaker 3 (30:49):
Should it should be? Yeah, Abigail, I'm sure she has
a last name, not that we hear it Chase Chase
because she's always Chase saying after Treasure with her boyfriend,
and Riley is always pulling up with his.

Speaker 2 (31:06):
Friends, and Ben Gates is always unlocking the gates. Think
about it, the secrets that will find him the treasure.

Speaker 3 (31:16):
And then Helen Muhren's character's name is Emily Appleton because
Apple was the da Vinci code. It all makes sense.

Speaker 1 (31:25):
WHOA.

Speaker 3 (31:26):
I wouldn't put it past this movie to give a
character the last name Appleton because I had a ton
of fun learning that the da Vinci code was Apple.
I also think that every clue and the mysteries in
the National Treasure movies are more fun, engaging and make

(31:49):
more sense than the Da Vinci Code mysteries.

Speaker 2 (31:54):
But but I think we should keep covering the movies
in that franchise. And Angels and Demons.

Speaker 3 (32:03):
Yeah, my god, how many people saw Angels and Demons?
Was it like one or two?

Speaker 2 (32:09):
I thought it made at least two hundred million at
the box office.

Speaker 3 (32:12):
Well, that's so it's certainly not doing National Treasure two numbers.
That's for damn sure, no embarrassing.

Speaker 2 (32:17):
Are you looking it up?

Speaker 3 (32:19):
Yeah? It's like wait a second, hold the precess I
need to find out what the global box office take
of Angels and Demons was. Now what okay, came out
in two thousand and nine, directed by Ron Howard m
oh I have horrible news. It made half a billion.

Speaker 2 (32:35):
Dollars, so a lot of people saw it and we
should cover it.

Speaker 3 (32:40):
Okay, then it that is the global impact. We do
need to talk about it. It in fact made thirty
million more than National Treasure too.

Speaker 2 (32:51):
Disgusting, disgusting, embarrassing for book of Secrets.

Speaker 3 (32:56):
Okay, Uh, this is okay, this is very While this
movie is not really doing anything for women, I will
say that the two female leads in this movie are
both doctors, doctor Abigail Chase and doctor Emily Appleton Gates.

Speaker 2 (33:14):
We've got a pair of PhDs.

Speaker 3 (33:16):
We've got a lot of education between these two ladies
who we don't get to see do very much. They
don't do anything that they are both damseled, so that's important.
They also have more, at least in the way of
academic credentials than any of the men. Because even though
they're constantly like better keep giving them my ID and

(33:38):
following them around, I'm like, just let you know, well, no,
I do think this just let Ed Harris kill John Voyd.
You know, like, what are we doing here?

Speaker 2 (33:50):
What's the worst that could happen? Okay, So Abigail once
Ben is like, there's a map on the thing, She's like,
that's ridiculous. But then Ben Riley and Abigail look at
the diary page under infrared and they do in fact
find a cipher, which Ben of course needs to decode,

(34:12):
but they need a five letter word first, which Ben
figures out.

Speaker 3 (34:17):
It's not apple, which is not pretty scary. How could
this be true? I was on the edge of my
seat waiting for it to be Apple. It's not.

Speaker 2 (34:25):
So this happens in a scene where Ben is like, Dad,
what's the story your granddaddy told you? And then John
Voight very conveniently remembers how Thomas Gates's dying words to
his son, which is John Voight's grandfather. The dying words
were the debt that all men pay? And I'm over here, like,

(34:47):
what about the debt that all women pay? Hello?

Speaker 3 (34:52):
No one cares about that. This is also I do
think we probably talked about John Voight's politics in the
first episode, but this movie comes out on the cusp
of John Voyd going full Republican. Like it's during the
two thousand and eight election that he says because he

(35:12):
I guess had held pretty liberal views for much of
his life. He like protested against the Vietnam War and
then does a hard switch during the oit election in
a way that certainly feels quite racist. And I'm not
a big fan of Obama, but like, yeah, it's racist,

(35:34):
and then went like, really rode for Romney, really rode
for Trump has pretty despicable politics. I'm pretty sure that
has some of the reason why Angelina Julie and he
are not on good terms. But in any case, I'm
just like, do any of these despicable political views? What
was he talking about on the set of National Treasure too,

(35:56):
Because it seems like he really underwent a pretty gross
political shift, and now I need to check.

Speaker 2 (36:03):
Maybe he was Knights of the Golden Circle. Sounds interesting,
Oh god, let's fucking let's fucking hope not. And then meanwhile,
Nicholas Cage, I guess this kind of makes sense for
his whole vibe. And I mean, this is an insult.
You know, Nicholas Cage was an Andrew yank guy. It's
just all a mess. It's just all kind of a disaster.

(36:26):
But I just wanted to because I know that we
talked about it the first time. But it feels like
this movie comes.

Speaker 3 (36:30):
Out this like the summer, or like the this is
a Christmas movie, This comes out just just months before
John Voyd comes out as whatever, gross fucking Republican guy.

Speaker 2 (36:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (36:48):
So that's just some interesting context to chew on and
why I will be really really letting it fly with
my opinions of John Voight throughout this understood.

Speaker 2 (37:00):
Yeah, Okay, So Ben is like deciphering this code. He
figures out that the debt that all men pay means death,
so that's the five letter word, and the cipher ends
up being Labalay Lady, which refers to the Statue of Liberty.

Speaker 3 (37:18):
So I thought that was actually a pretty hot clue.
Like these writers again the same writing team as the
first movie, Cormack and Marianne Wibberly married couple.

Speaker 2 (37:30):
Is that right?

Speaker 3 (37:31):
Yes, they they really fired up Google for this. I
was like, what the hell are they talking about? But
it is pretty historically accurate that Laboulay had the idea
for the Statue of Liberty, was not the one who
actually designed it, but Laboulay, lady, that's a hot clue.
Well you ask me. Okay, it's no apple, but it's

(37:54):
pretty good.

Speaker 2 (37:54):
The Wibberlys are doing their research. Yes, okay, the clue
who is love a Lady? It refers to the Statue
of Liberty. So Ben thinks there must be a clue
or a map or something on the Statue of Liberty,
But not the one in New York City? Ever heard
of it? Because there are three statues of Liberty, and

(38:14):
the one they need is in Paris, France. Ever heard
of that?

Speaker 3 (38:18):
This shot grips. We've already described it, but it's time
to shout it out again. It's just an unbelievable shot.

Speaker 2 (38:30):
The cinematogphic down.

Speaker 3 (38:32):
From the Eiffel Tower zooming in to tiny Statue of
Liberty where Riley has a drone question mark. I also
just love a Justin Bartha hacking scene. He's on a
flip phone, he's bitching. I just love these scenes with
him where he's like making little comments at the computer.

Speaker 2 (38:54):
I love his little quips. Also, anytime he mentions his
book is legiti manly good comedy there, I see.

Speaker 3 (39:01):
It's so funny. No one has read it. It's so
except wait, who did there's one person in the movie
who did read.

Speaker 2 (39:08):
Oh, Harvey Kayitel.

Speaker 3 (39:10):
Yes, Oh that was That was the best moment for
Harvey Kayitel in the movie. It was like, Okay, he
just earned his check by reading justin Bartha's Little Book,
but also doesn't Bartha I would be I don't know,
Riley needs self esteem because he has so many of
the answers. Yeah, but no one gives a shit, No
one cares. He knows about this Book of Secrets. There's
a whole chapter yeah, yeah, on the Book of Secrets.

Speaker 2 (39:32):
There's that scene where he's like he's trying to explain
the Book of Secrets to Nicholas Cage and he's like,
if it were you trying to convince me, you'd have
less evidence than I'd already believe you by now.

Speaker 3 (39:42):
And you're like, yeah, Riley, because you have really slow
self esteem and we need to work on that because
you're a smart guy.

Speaker 2 (39:48):
Oh Riley. Anyway, Speaking of Harvey Kytel, he is in
the movie for some reason and he he's gets wind
of the news dusky or sa dusky, Sa dusky. He
gets wind of the news that his best friend question
Mark Ben Gates is the ancestor of a guy who

(40:11):
might have been responsible for Abe Lincoln's assassination. So now
he takes an interest in this case, and I think
he's kind of working to sort of discredit Ed Harris.
I think, is it's what's happening, but I'm not sure it's.

Speaker 3 (40:28):
It's really like his character is for sure not necessary
in the movie because yeah, and it also just like, yeah,
I was also a little confused on like whose side
he was on, because it just seems like he's there
to like ultimately be on Nicholas Cage's side, but then
kind of fuck with.

Speaker 2 (40:46):
Him, right because he's like sort of the one who
tries to arrest him at the Library of Congress later.

Speaker 3 (40:51):
On, which he does in the first one too. Yeah,
they love to fake arrest him, but then this time
the President's like, it's all good. I love I loved
the kidnap bang. I love that you looked in the
Book of Secrets, page forty seven. It's our little secret.
I love this shot at the end. Oh when President
what's his name? President?

Speaker 2 (41:13):
Oh? What is his even name?

Speaker 3 (41:15):
Bruce Greenwood is the name of the actor. The name
of the character is President of the United States. Don't
worry about it. Do not worry about it. So when
Nicholas Cage says I'm gonna kidnap the President of the
United States, he's just using the president's full name. But
I love when the President of the United States turns
around and goes what book?

Speaker 2 (41:36):
Oh, I was like.

Speaker 3 (41:38):
He got so good for what book? Indeed?

Speaker 2 (41:43):
Truly Okay. So now Ben and Riley go to Paris
to the little Statue of Liberty near the Eiffel Tower,
and there is in fact a clue engraved on it
with a reference to twins that stand resolute, and Ben
figures out that this means two twin desks. Okay, One

(42:05):
resolute desk is in the Buckingham Palace. So they go
to London.

Speaker 3 (42:09):
I really enjoyed the London sequence and also history check.
These are real desks. These are real ass desks, okay exist.

Speaker 2 (42:18):
Were they made from the timber from a ship called
the Resolute?

Speaker 3 (42:22):
They sure were? Wow, they sure were. It is a documentary.
The desks are not puzzles that I was able to
find to help.

Speaker 2 (42:31):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (42:32):
Well, but there was a hidden door in the Resolute
desk in the Oval office. The reason it was there.
History fact, huh is that Franklin D. Roosevelt wanted to
have a hinged front panel installed so that people could
not see his wheelchair when he began using a wheelchair.
So that is why the panel was there, which they

(42:54):
referenced in the movie. Yes, And so this movie you
can learn a lot by watching this movie. It's a
history book basically, mostly just trivia. I wouldn't say you
learned much about that. Themes you don't learn much about,
you know, harping constantly harping and obsessing over founding father

(43:16):
related history, how it crumbles silas, Yeah, and how building
entire franchises around white Americans really hyper fixating on their
ancestry is maybe not the best use of time more money.
But they were real desks, and so that's not nothing perfect. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:41):
Okay. So meanwhile, Mitch Wilkinson again that's the Ed Harris character.
He finds out about the progress that Ben is making
and he taps Ben's phone so that he can run
surveillance on Ben and like spy on him and keep
track of where Ben is and what he's doing. Now

(44:03):
back in London, Ben and Riley and Abigail, who shows
up for reasons plan a little heist. They break into
the Queen's office, they solve the little puzzle on the desk,
and inside they find an old piece of wood with
writing on it of an indigenous language. Yes, we will

(44:27):
talk more about this, but this.

Speaker 3 (44:30):
Is just I mean, that is I think one of
the movie's greatest gigantic flaws is how because the second you,
or at least I might in my notes, the second
that you learn that this convoluted secret is related to
Indigenous Americans, I'm like, well, they're for sure going to

(44:50):
fumble this, oh yeah, massively, And sure enough they do.

Speaker 2 (44:54):
They really, really really do. Yes, we'll discuss this more
in a bit. But in the meantime, Ben, Riley, and
Abigail escape the palace with this piece of wood, but
Mitch and his goons chase them. They're shooting at them.
And then there's this ridiculous thing where Ben runs a

(45:16):
red light, knowing that a traffic cam will take a photo,
so he holds the piece of wood up for the photo.
Then he throws the wood in the river. Then he
gets Riley to hack the traffic cams to get a
copy of the photo, which is somehow high resolution enough
where they can still read the writing on it, and.

Speaker 3 (45:38):
I what part of that was challenging for you? Because
I was like, makes sense basic order of operations. That
was so The wooden panel they find reminds me of
like Star Wars nine, where they have a similar thing
where you have to like hold it against the horizon
and that's how you figure out you're in the right place.

(46:00):
And again I will give National Treasure to the edge
of handle.

Speaker 2 (46:04):
Ledge of history.

Speaker 3 (46:06):
They're well, I'm not enough to watch it, but I was.
I was intrigued. That sequence felt like having a heart attack.
It felt like watching uncut gems. Like I was just like,
what the hell am I looking at?

Speaker 2 (46:22):
Because it throws it into the river and Mitch's goons
easily retrieve it, So.

Speaker 3 (46:28):
Like why is it so easy? Why them Like yeah,
and they just loop that, they just have it.

Speaker 2 (46:34):
I guess Nicholas Cage did that to get them off
their tail, like to get the bad guys off their tail.
But there had to be a better way than throwing
the one clue they have right now into a river
a body of water. It's also like it's the type
of thing that like white people would be like, oh,
let's steal this and put in a museum like it's

(46:56):
this like incredible ancient artifact, and then Ben is just
like carelessly handling it and then like throwing it, oh
into a river, like it's this Ben Gates.

Speaker 3 (47:05):
The thing is like Ben Gates, I don't even think
gives a shit about American history. He just gives a
shit about fresh family specifically and money, like which is
a very I think, like jingoistic white American trait. It's like,
it feels like a very like American individualist character, like
I care about myself and my money and my guys,

(47:27):
and that's it. I don't actually give a shit about
other people. I don't care about historical accuracy as it
pertains to anyone outside of my immediate family. He is
a very narrow minded man that Benjamin Franklin Gates.

Speaker 2 (47:40):
The steaks in this movie and him right, the stakes
in this movie are my family name has been besmirched,
and I have to fix it. Like a guy who's
been dead for a century might have a bad reputation,
but because he's related to me, and I can't handle
that with my ego. I have to go find treasure,

(48:03):
which somehow will you know who is fixed the reputation.

Speaker 3 (48:06):
You know, who is the relative of a very old
timey serial killer, Maggie may Fish. Is she stealing the
president trying to clear his name? No, she let it go.

Speaker 2 (48:23):
Yeah, Oh my god, that's what you gotta do.

Speaker 3 (48:25):
People should learn from her.

Speaker 2 (48:28):
Exactly.

Speaker 3 (48:28):
Yeah, she's been I mean she what has she done?
She has instead spent her time on earth healing the
fish name by being herself.

Speaker 2 (48:37):
People should what's the expression, like, take a page out
of Maggie's Book of secrets.

Speaker 3 (48:43):
Yeah, wow, yeah, take a look at Maggie's page forty
seven because it looks a little different. Yeah, okay, okay,
she's talked about that publicly. It's fine. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes.

Speaker 2 (48:54):
I also knew this because I think she mentions it on.

Speaker 3 (48:58):
Behind the Bastards.

Speaker 2 (48:59):
Oh that's right, that's right. Okay. So they now have
this photo of this piece of wood with Riley mm hmm,
with the indigenous writing on it. They take the photo
to Ben's mom, who is played by Helen Mirren and
who is a professor of something. We don't know what.

Speaker 3 (49:23):
It is stated. It is stated, it's it is like
it did seem like they went at least not that
this is a big compliment, but they did like say
what it was. It was. It was just kind of
too smart for me. It was like something like archaeology something. Okay,
Like she this is a this is a puzzle family.

(49:45):
Her puzzles are ancient languages, which seems like a better
use of time than what the Gates are doing. Yes,
the way her character is introduced, which we'll also get
into later, but oh my god, it is just John
Voight being like, oh yeah, yie, this broad that is
very much the vibe.

Speaker 2 (50:04):
Quit nagging me.

Speaker 3 (50:06):
Wait till you order a couch with this broad and
you're like enough stock. I understand where Benjamin Franklin Gates
gets his attitudes on women standing up for themselves as
being annoying. Yeah, and disrespectful. Meanwhile, Riley Poole Man of
the Century single awful doesn't make disgusting makes no sense.

Speaker 2 (50:30):
Okay. So anyway, they take the photo to Helen Mirren,
who translates it. But it's only half of the message
because they still have to go to the other resolute desk,
which is in the White House because it's the President
of the United States desk. So they sneak into the

(50:51):
Oval Office during the White House Easter egg Hunt.

Speaker 3 (50:56):
This is a typeer. I mean, that is a real thing, right,
I remember because I have seen pictures of Why have
I seen pictures of that?

Speaker 2 (51:05):
God?

Speaker 3 (51:05):
Who cares? This is such a weird, awful place to live?
Why do I know that? I did know that? But
that's related to ty Burrell. Yes, Tyberrell is the reason
they have the inn at the egg Hunt, because that's
we We haven't brought him up yet except to say
that spoiler work, this is the last time you'll ever

(51:25):
see him, but he's I did like the detail that
Abigail moves on instantly where I Abigail, I would do
the same. And also Tyberell vibe wise over Nicholas Cage
Vibeise inter relationships seems like a better bet.

Speaker 2 (51:45):
Huge upgrade.

Speaker 3 (51:47):
Yes, but they're like, oh, this guy sucks. He's in
charge of the egg hunt.

Speaker 2 (51:52):
Right, So Abigail had been seeing this guy Connor, that's Tyberrell,
no last name, you know. So they call upon him
to help them get into the Oval office.

Speaker 3 (52:06):
Yeah, They're like, let's not use Abigail's credentials or skills,
let's use her body. Yeah, to accomplish this yes, and
it'll be funny mm hmm. And that's just kind of
the internal logic of this scene.

Speaker 2 (52:17):
Right, And then so Ben solves the puzzle on the desk,
but the other piece of wood with the rest of
the treasure map on it, which they think is going
to be in the desk, is missing, and in its
place is a seal stamped into the wood, which they

(52:38):
think is the presidential seal, but it's slightly different. And
this is where Riley's time to shine comes because he's like, no,
that's the symbol for the President's Secret Book, which is
a collection of documents for presidents by presidents.

Speaker 3 (52:56):
And honestly, okay, would you I think that we've reached
a point in history where our generation has witnessed so
much absurdity. I would believe that there's a book of secrets.

Speaker 2 (53:14):
I think there's probably a whole library's worth of secrets.

Speaker 3 (53:20):
I think that that would be a better movie than
a book of secrets. And I also wouldn't be shocked,
just out of the shearing competence of the American system,
that it would be in a public library.

Speaker 2 (53:32):
Yeah. I don't know.

Speaker 3 (53:34):
Much like this book of secrets. H what was on
page forty seven, John Turtle Top will never know tell
I was on page forty seven. I love Oh, it's
one of my favorites. It's setting up a sequel that
never happens. Oh, Chef's kiss. It's like the end of
I Frankenstein when they're like to say, You're like, what

(53:55):
the fuck are they talking about? We'll never know. Damn,
I'll never know.

Speaker 2 (53:59):
Hey, there's no sequel to I Frankenstein yet.

Speaker 3 (54:04):
It's gonna be the ten year anniversary of I Frankenstein
in about six months, and I am gonna rent out
a movie theater and you, of course are invited. It's
gonna be huge. It's gonna be major incredible. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (54:17):
So we learn about this book of secrets that only
the presidents know about. But also so does Riley Poole somehow,
so does Harvey Kaitel. A lot of people know about
this secret book and they assume that that's where the
other half of this map is. But how are they
gonna get to the President's secret book? And this is

(54:39):
when Ben pitches his incredible idea, wherein he says, I'm
gonna kidnap him. I'm going to kidnap the president of
the United States, and then.

Speaker 3 (54:51):
Everyone goes, yeah, everyone loses it because we love when
Ben goes off the because it always works out for him.
Then John Voyd, i will say, does a hell of
a line read here where he goes, I'm your father.
How am I supposed to react to that? You're just like, okay, yeah, fair,

(55:16):
But he secretly loves it because two seconds later, the
like Ben has to do so little to get his
debt on board for the worst ideas ever because his
dad is also like secretly into it the whole time.
But like he's like, I'm gonna kidnap the president of
the United States, and John Voyd's like, oh my gosh, no,
we can't do that. And then Nicholas Cage is like,

(55:37):
well there's a map. He's like, oh, oh, well, okay
if there's a map, And that's why if we're kidnapping
him for a map, this family loves map We're mam, guys, God,
I hate them saying so much, but it's like, it's
so weird having a character that you can't stand who
is never wrong. It's like, just it breaks me.

Speaker 2 (55:58):
It's infuriating. Also, so they should rename this franchise map
Quest because they're always going on quests to find maps.

Speaker 3 (56:07):
To find it, and one map leads to another, leads
to another.

Speaker 2 (56:10):
Which does eventually lead to treasure. They're right about that, and.

Speaker 3 (56:14):
Then you get a half a billion dollars. It's so
it is. I mean, Nicholas Cage knows what he's doing
when he says the line I'm going to kidnap the
President of the United States. No way did they need
a second take on that? That was really.

Speaker 2 (56:29):
Special, And as we pointed out in the first National
Treasure episode, it's basically the same exact line read like
the same intonation as when he says I'm gonna steal it.
I'm gonna steal the Declaration of Independence. He just copy
paste same thing, except now it's a human person who

(56:49):
is the President of the United States.

Speaker 3 (56:51):
He is, in fact the President of the United States. Oh,
and then the movie gets goofy. It becomes extremely goofy.

Speaker 2 (57:00):
Before that it was a goofy movie, and now it's
an extremely goofy movie.

Speaker 3 (57:04):
We've cranked it up to an eleven. We're like, yes,
this is no more thinking for the rest of the movie.

Speaker 2 (57:11):
So what happens next is Ben Riley, Abigail and Patrick
orchestrate another heist where they infiltrate the president's birthday party
at a hotel called Mount Vernon, which they're able to
do because they like book up a bunch of other
hotels as if an event for the president. They couldn't

(57:32):
just be like, sorry, I don't care that your retirement
party is here. I'm the president. My plans override yours.

Speaker 3 (57:41):
Yeah, move the retirement party.

Speaker 2 (57:43):
Yeah. But they're acting like, oh my god, this is
already booked up. We need to find another place for
the president's birthday party.

Speaker 3 (57:50):
So, as stated earlier, the Wibberleies once again are googling
up a storm because there is a secret basement beneath
Mount Vernon where you can example, kid briefly kidnapped the
president of the United States.

Speaker 2 (58:03):
Uh huh, yes, great, so I love that. And this
president was an architectural history major from Yale.

Speaker 3 (58:13):
Also, you're like, this guy sucks boom, No one harvs
your credent cheese.

Speaker 2 (58:19):
It's like, you know, when you major in architectural history
and then you become the president of the United States.

Speaker 3 (58:26):
What's next? In English major? A failed real estate heir?
Be serious? Yeah, that's a little topical humor for me.

Speaker 2 (58:35):
Ha ha ha ha.

Speaker 3 (58:37):
Anyways, yeah, I think it is just that was just
a weird detail to add for a character. They didn't
even give a first or last name to Why do
I know what degree this man has? But I don't
know what his name government name is.

Speaker 2 (58:51):
Yeah, we're not sure anyway. So Ben goes up to
the President at the party at Mount Vernon and tricks
him into following Ben into the basement to find this
secret underground tunnel. And then Ben is like, I need
to know where your book of secrets is, mister President,

(59:12):
And then the President is like, ti he, what are
you talking about. But then after some like impassioned speech
about something something American history who knows, the president is like, okay, fine,
the book does exist, and it's in the Library of
Congress and here's a bunch of numbers that you'll need

(59:33):
to know.

Speaker 3 (59:34):
The way he buckles is just shocking. It's so fast,
Like yeah, Also, how quickly he agrees to go into
the basement with Nicholas Cage is hilarious.

Speaker 2 (59:45):
It's so funny.

Speaker 3 (59:46):
Like Nicholas, I mean, he is a very charismatic guy,
but he's just like, I don't know can I come
to the basement. And he's like, sure, let's let's do it.
Like he's had like a couple of white claws and
he's like, let's do it. Let's get down to the basement.

Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
Happy birthday to me. And then he's like, Secret Service guys,
get the fuck out of here. I'm with my new friend.

Speaker 3 (01:00:05):
Oh my god. There is one guy I I they
none of the Secret Service agents get names, but there's
one guy who is like acting. He's like, I need
a sledgehammer, I need a gun. You're like, oh my god,
he's like really going for it. It was so funny anyways,

(01:00:28):
but yeah, this president is just a real dunce, like
he is just given away. He just says, okay, fine,
there's a book of secrets, and then literally, like Nicholas
Cage's character, Benjamin Franklin Gates, famously untrustworthy, famously addicted to
breaking the laws, does not believe consequences apply to them,

(01:00:51):
and they don't in this world, never do. Why would you,
as the president who knows who Benjamin Franklin Gates is
and that he famous doesn't listen to anybody, be like, okay,
honor system, promise to not read all of the secrets,
Like what are you talking about? He's using me?

Speaker 2 (01:01:10):
And then not only that, he's like, look at an
extra secret. Take a gander at page forty seven.

Speaker 3 (01:01:16):
He's like, don't look up whether the moon landing happened, promise,
but like the check out page forty seven and fine
and clear your and like, I don't know, it is
truly like such American like white supremacy, exceptionalism. This conversation
they have in the basement where the president is like,

(01:01:37):
I really admire how you want to clear your dumb
ass family's name again, blah blah blah, Like here's every
secret in the entire world. Promise you'll only read the
one about your grandpoppy or whatever. You're just like this fuck,
this is just I mean, it's camp because it has
to be. Yeah, but this president is just like such

(01:02:00):
a trusting man.

Speaker 2 (01:02:04):
Yes. Also, I feel like the actor who plays him
who I like, Bruce Greenwood. He's in The Star Trucks,
ton of stuff. Yeah, I feel like he's who they
call when Sam Neil isn't available.

Speaker 3 (01:02:16):
Oh I do. But he does have very like TV
president face. Yeah, yeah, he's been in a lot of stuff.
I really liked him. In the two thousands, the jj
Abrams start.

Speaker 2 (01:02:29):
The star trucks.

Speaker 3 (01:02:30):
Yeah. Same. I think he's a fun guy, and I'll
say it he did. He was. He was the President
of the United States for me. And then at the end,
the fact that he has the audacity to say what
book of Secrets? I was like, you have no vested
interest in people not knowing about this damn book of secrets?

(01:02:52):
You told the first notorious thief who asked, like, what
is rough? Ugh, We're fucked.

Speaker 2 (01:03:00):
Yeah it's true. Okay, so oh we're still doing the
recap Ben. Okay. So Ben now has the information he
needs to access the Book of Secrets. So he runs
off and heads to the Library of Congress with Riley
and Abigail. They find the Book of Secrets and inside

(01:03:21):
is a photograph of the other half of the map,
along with an entry from President Coolidge with a reference
to Mount Rushmore, and Ben is like Borglum carved Mount
Rushmore to destroy the map's landmarks to protect the City
of Gold. So they figure out.

Speaker 3 (01:03:41):
That the city of what right. The fact that they
managed to turn it up turn up the heat from
kidnapping the president. I was genuinely impressed because it's like,
at that point you gotta go City of Gold.

Speaker 2 (01:03:53):
There had been some references prior to this about Cibola,
which is this like legendary lost city of Gold.

Speaker 3 (01:04:01):
But if you have two brain cells like I do
you need Nichol's Cage to be like there is a
city of Gold underneath Mount Rushmore, And it's like, oh
m hmm, that's.

Speaker 2 (01:04:10):
And that Mount Rushmore was a cover up to protect
the whereabouts of the City of Gold.

Speaker 3 (01:04:17):
You'll never think to look underneath Mount Rushmore, just like
you'll never think to I mean, that's sort of like
what this whole franchise is predicated on. Like you would
never think to pour a bunch of aquafina water bottles
on Mount Rushmore to find the city of Gold. You
just wouldn't.

Speaker 2 (01:04:37):
You would never think to look on the Declaration of
Independence for a map to the Templar's Treasure for.

Speaker 3 (01:04:44):
A bunch of old white supremacists. No, I don't think
you would think that. But but someone is thinking that,
and he's constantly being rewarded for it. I for some reason,
it maybe just I was absolutely delighted that because whatever
we're about to get to this when they go to
my Rashmore. They have to pour water on to find
the state whatever. Yeah, but that they but the movie

(01:05:07):
had the foresight to get a water bottle company to
like do product placement. Yeah, Like, well, Aquafina, do you
want to be the most American water bottle? And Aguafina said,
sure thing. Yeah, yeah. Desanni found dead in a ditch
National Traders water bottle.

Speaker 2 (01:05:27):
Yeah, makes you think.

Speaker 3 (01:05:29):
Yeah, So Aquafina reveals the At this point, you're just like,
what the fuck is even happening? Cut to the City
of Gold, Like, what's going on?

Speaker 2 (01:05:38):
Yeah, So the FBI are closing in on them on
account of Ben having kidnapped the President of the United States,
but they escape. Meanwhile, Mitch pays Helen Mirren a visit
and shows her a letter from the Queen of England
to his ancestor, once again a Confederate general. It contains

(01:06:01):
a clue that they need to find the City of Gold,
but he burns the letter and he's like, now I'm
the only one who can find Cibola, and then he
kidnapps Helen Mirren and takes her to Mount Rushmore, where Ben, Riley,
Abigail and Patrick already are because they figured it out
that they need to go there, and then they kind

(01:06:22):
of like reluctantly all team up to search for this
city of Gold, and they're pouring aquafina onto the rocks.

Speaker 3 (01:06:34):
Nick Cage does a hilarious fake out where he's like, oh,
my hands just kidding. Oh, I was laughing.

Speaker 2 (01:06:41):
So there's a few moments that I feel like we're
kind of borrowed from Jurassic Park in this movie because, again,
not to bring up Sam Neille again, he does that
with the like t Rex Gate, he pretends to be
electricuted and he gets in several arguments with children in
that movie.

Speaker 3 (01:07:01):
Nick Cage only does it once, but he does it
so it's so funny because it's like Nick Cage is
doing things that Sam Neil would do, but he's just
doing it in a way that's so annoying to watch
and the Cage I prefer it. We haven't gotten to
Nick caje argument. I mean, it happened a while ago,

(01:07:21):
because it doesn't matter to the plot, but it mattered
to our culture.

Speaker 2 (01:07:26):
Yeah, exactly. Yes, So, based on Mitch's clue, they pour
water all over the rocks, which reveals an eagle engraved
into the rocks, and then there's a secret latch that
opens a secret door and they go inside this like
cave catacomb type place where most of it immediately collapses

(01:07:48):
and they get trapped inside, so they have to keep
moving onward into the cave. There are various obstacles like
this like platform that's tilting all over the place. Then
they get into a room with a bunch of water
that they think is a dead end, but they stop
the flow of water and then are able to go downward,

(01:08:09):
and then that's where they discover the city of Gold.
And as they are oohing and aweing over the city,
the water starts bursting through again and it starts flooding
the city. So now they have to find the drain.
But Mitch is a bad guy again suddenly, and he's like,
we're not leaving until you agree to say that I

(01:08:32):
discovered the City of Gold, because he's also obsessed with
like family legacy. Shit.

Speaker 3 (01:08:38):
Yeah, but he's ed Harris, so he is going to
like lose. But the I just wanted to quickly shout
out the platform scene because I remember seeing the platform
scene in theaters and I think it's a really well
done scene. I still get a little bit of anxiety
watching the platform scene even today. It's where again the

(01:08:59):
team is very quick to agree that Riley would be
the first to die. Poor this poor man needs to
like go to a trivia night, like he needs to
like make new friends. Period. He's gotten, you know, he's
got at least gotten something out of this, you know,
kind of emotionally abusive friendship he's in with Nicholas Cage.

Speaker 2 (01:09:18):
You gotta read Ferrari out of it.

Speaker 3 (01:09:20):
You gotta read Ferrari. He got this book deal. Get
the fuck out of there, man, Seriously, he doesn't care
about you. He doesn't care about you.

Speaker 2 (01:09:27):
No, he didn't even read your book. He didn't even
open your book from its packaging.

Speaker 3 (01:09:31):
And Abigail also, you know, for all the disrespects she's given,
she doesn't give a rats ass about Riley either. She
leaves him for dead instantly because this movie also does.
I noticed, and I think that this is like an
action movie trope that we've discussed in the past. There's
a very like unspoken women and children first ethos to
this movie. Definitely, it's always like a very you know, hypermasculine,

(01:09:55):
Like I'm John Voyd, I better check this swinging vine
before I bring and we were in on the You're
just like fucking whatever, Like Abigail has to be the
first to get off the mysterious platform. Meanwhile Justin Bartha
dead Like yeah, clearly he's the weakest link. You're just like,
leave this poor man alone. Although Justin Bartha has big,

(01:10:19):
Justin Long wasn't available vibes. Have we talked about that?
I think we have. Yeah, yeah, I mean Justin Lung
wasn't available for this, and that's good because Justin Bartha
made the partisan.

Speaker 2 (01:10:29):
We love him in this role.

Speaker 1 (01:10:30):
We do.

Speaker 2 (01:10:32):
Okay, So the city is flooding and Ed Harris is like,
I need to be the one to discover this. But
then some stuff happens. I don't even quite track it.

Speaker 3 (01:10:46):
There's a crank, there's some there's a door, it's flooded. Deal,
and then gives a shit.

Speaker 2 (01:10:53):
Basically, it culminates in Mitch getting left behind Slash. He
decides to sacrifice himself so the others can escape, and
so he dies. N then they get out of all
the they like leave the cave. Harvey Kaitel's there to
arrest Ben, but then the president is there and he's

(01:11:13):
like I love this guy. He saved my life. He
did not kidnap me. Don't believe the rumors ti he
and he says to Riley, what is.

Speaker 3 (01:11:24):
Definitely not a book of secrets? Wink, You're just like
this guy sucks. This guy is so bad at being
the president.

Speaker 2 (01:11:31):
Then we cut to people excavating the city of Gold
Ye yikes, and then some shit happens. Riley meets a
fangirl of his. Ben and Abigail get back together and
the kiss and is disgusting.

Speaker 3 (01:11:47):
And then pan up to Mount Rushford. Do Do Do
Do Do do the end.

Speaker 2 (01:11:53):
Let's take another break and we'll come back to discuss
and we're back.

Speaker 3 (01:12:05):
Shall we begin by discussing the women of this movie
before we get into blatant indigenous history fumbling fump. Yes, yes,
because it just feels sort of like a continuation and
in an addition to our discussion of National Treasure One,
where a huge thing with National Treasure One as well

(01:12:28):
as because I would like lump in the Da Vinci
Code kind of into this discussion because it came out
in the same stretch of years and has many of
the same issues. Even though I think National Treasure franchise
as far as watchability, far and beyond way better. But
that a big issue we have with National Treasure One

(01:12:49):
is that Abigail it feels like a very two thousands
era writing convention to give Abigail a lot of academic credential.
She is not written as just like I think the
way that often Indiana Jones characters are written of just
like a lady, and here's a lady. She doesn't have

(01:13:11):
any skills, but she's gonna be around for it, And
so it feels like a very superficial advancement of those
writing conventions where it's like, no, now she's very qualified
and like they're But still, ultimately, the way that these
characters are used within the plot of an action movie
is not much different.

Speaker 2 (01:13:31):
They're not allowed to contribute the knowledge that they allegedly have.
They're not allowed to do really much of anything to
push the story forward, except for like little crumbs here
and there. I took inventory of the handful of things
that Abigail does that pushes the story forwards.

Speaker 3 (01:13:50):
I felt like she's mostly treated as like I mean
she it just felt like it was she was almost
used as like a narrative device to be like, oh well,
how would Ben get in there? Abigail's ID and that's
like sort of yeah, like she's not doing very much.
She's just giving them access to a lot of.

Speaker 2 (01:14:06):
Things for sure, or she's like doing something kind of
careless and it pushes the story forward in that way.
For example, she's meeting with Ed Harris for some reason,
I don't know why. They're like getting drinks together, but
then she gets a call from Ben who is like,
we figured out the clue. And then so now she's
like loudly talking about the clue within earshot of Ed Harris,

(01:14:29):
so he like figures things out because she's just like
being careless, right, So it's technically her doing something to
push the story forward, but not in the way you'd want,
not in.

Speaker 3 (01:14:39):
An informed or intelligent way, yeah, right, which is like
you know, like characters can make mistakes. But it just yeah,
it just felt like she that was just like well
someone It didn't feel unique to her in any way exactly,
and like it's not really something that you would expect
her character to do. Yeah, something that had to.

Speaker 2 (01:14:55):
Happen exactly, So it doesn't even track. But that's a
scene that takes place, Like you mentioned, she drives a
car so she helps Ben escape from the Library of Congress.
She knows where the special books are in the Library
of Congress. She does use her like quote unquote feminine
wiles to distract this man she's stringing along ty Burrell

(01:15:20):
so that the male protagonist of the movie can do
the important things, aka solve the desk puzzle.

Speaker 3 (01:15:26):
Yeah. I hated that. That was that felt like a
regression on the two thousand and four movie where yeah, yeah,
and then there's like a really protracted joke about like
I'm making out with ty Burrell's that Nicholas He's just
like ough this, I don't know. It felt like super
dated for two thousand and seven.

Speaker 2 (01:15:46):
Yeah, it really did. Yeah, she is the one who
finds the bird on the rocks, but only because Nicholas
Cage had figured out the clue of like, oh, we
need to pour these aquafina water bottles on the rocks.

Speaker 3 (01:15:58):
That was yeah, that was like chance that it.

Speaker 2 (01:15:59):
Was her exactly. And then she does get damseled when
Ed Harris holds her at knife point when he's trying
to escape the flooded room.

Speaker 3 (01:16:10):
It's it's so close to the end of the movie too,
where I was like, well, because at this point Helen
Mirren has been damseled already. Yes, also John Voyight has
kind of been damseled, so like maybe it's a generational
damseling in this one, but it's like, no, it happens
to Abigail the last second too.

Speaker 2 (01:16:26):
Yeah, and then she kind of like she doesn't really
join the group in their like map quest if you
will until Ben and Riley are in London, and then
she kind of gets involved because Ben picks this like
fake fight with her and we'll talk about their relationship also,
but they're like arguing and she doesn't even realize they're arguing.

Speaker 3 (01:16:49):
But then but then at some point she does that
was maybe that was like lost in the performance too,
But I was like.

Speaker 2 (01:16:56):
Didn't scan for me at all, There's no indication she
gets what's happening. Yeah, so that was shitty. But then
he tries to go look at the Queen's desk without her.
He's like always just trying to exclude her from things.
He's like, no, it's too dangerous. She does go along,
and she does suggest that the code on the desk

(01:17:19):
might be a year, but she doesn't figure out which
year it's. Ben who figures that out. So all this
to say, her contributions in the story are either like
by pure coincidence or her making a mistake, or her
she maybe like contributes five to ten percent of the

(01:17:40):
thing while Ben is doing the majority of it. It's
all stuff like.

Speaker 3 (01:17:45):
That, right, I think. And that was similar to the
first one, and it also really reminds me of Marian
Courtyard in the DaVinci Code and other women were told
is hypercompetent but is not actually allowed to behave that way.

Speaker 2 (01:17:57):
Within Oh you mean Audrey tattoo.

Speaker 3 (01:18:00):
Oh my gosh, I'm being anti French. Yes, I do
ada tattoo. Yes, yes, which sucks and is a convention
that I think we still see in movies now where
it's like I feel like there's like a tacit understanding,
where it's like, well, we can't just have like you know,
but it's I don't know, it's we've talked about it before.

(01:18:20):
I find it really frustrating to go out of your
way to write a competent character and then be like,
but don't worry, she's not gonna do anything. I felt
like for me, the highlight for Abigail in this movie
was comment during the car during the car chase. That
was a cool sequence. I like that she and Riley
were just like on kind of a side quest together,

(01:18:42):
and that they almost killed a cop. That was fun. True,
that was a treat. The rest, yeah, she wasn't really
allowed to do very much. I thought it was very
interesting and by interesting I do mean lazy that they
wrote basically an identical character to Abigail to be Ben's mom.
Let's go through her, because it's, first of all, it's

(01:19:04):
disrespectful to write Helen Mirren a shitty part. Don't waste
this woman's time. She's a legend, I know, but they did.
They wrote her Emily Appleton Gates much in the way
that we learn how Ben views Abigail, which is like
I love her, but this ball and change, she doesn't

(01:19:27):
get me.

Speaker 2 (01:19:27):
She's so annoying. She's always nagging me, mama, right.

Speaker 3 (01:19:33):
And then we see an identical dynamic between presented uncritically
really between John Voyd and Helen Mirren. I felt like
it was marginally more self aware in that relationship, which
isn't saying very much. But I don't know, like, yeah,
so Helen Miren is playing this like archaeologist. She specializes

(01:19:56):
in ancient language like something something plot translate, yes, and
so she does do a number of things throughout the
movie to help them true and she does. I did appreciate,
and again this is like crumbs, but I did appreciate
that in most of the moments where John Voight would
criticize her, she would not accept that criticism and would

(01:20:20):
be like, no, you were seeing puzzles everywhere, and I
had to raise our son by myself. Yeah, and like
I also wanted to go on quests, but no one
was raising our son due to your puzzle issue. And
her character's pretty consistent on that issue. And I liked it, like,
and I liked it she was doing stuff. I liked

(01:20:42):
her relationship with Ben. There is no relationship with Abigail,
but they hugged for some reason. I liked how Riley
introduced himself to her at the end of the movie.
That was fun.

Speaker 2 (01:20:54):
Yeah, he's like, by the way, I'm Riley Pool, author
of the Templar Treasure.

Speaker 3 (01:21:00):
Boo. But I felt like, certainly an underwritten character, but
better written than Abigail unfortunately. Yeah, but that's why it
made it so confusing to me that she randomly gets
back together with John Void at the end of the movie,
because we are led to believe that she would never

(01:21:22):
do that.

Speaker 2 (01:21:23):
Yeah, here's my theory. So, as she says in the movie,
when John Voy first shows up in her office, she's like,
we didn't love each other. It was just excitement, adrenaline
and tequila, which is a pretty sick burn. Good honestly
to tell your ex husband.

Speaker 3 (01:21:40):
And she keeps calling back the tequila.

Speaker 2 (01:21:43):
Yeah, yes, So she basically says like, I never loved you.
I was just horny and we were going on adventures
and that was exciting. So maybe it's just that because
they went on this other adventure, she's horny again for
him and that's why they kiss.

Speaker 3 (01:22:00):
But but then she's like, I.

Speaker 2 (01:22:01):
Thought that was another mistake. I'm gonna go back to
my university and keep ignoring you.

Speaker 3 (01:22:07):
And you know that information is actually like what would
have happened to them? That is written somewhere, but unfortunately
it's page forty seven of the President's Book of Secrets,
so we will never know what happens. And if the
Gates I was just like, why did we need a
Nicholas Cage parent trap in this movie? Was that necessary?

(01:22:27):
Like I would say, no, he's in his forties and
it's not necessary for him to have a parent trap
at this late stage.

Speaker 2 (01:22:34):
And he doesn't even have a twin to help him.

Speaker 3 (01:22:36):
It doesn't Yeah, first of all, he couldn't pull it
off well, although I think Riley could help. Sure, he
could hack his parents to make them love each other again. Yeah,
but yeah, I thought that that was a very like
callous undercutting of like, not a great well thought out character,
but the best written woman character we've seen a national

(01:23:00):
treasure so far. And then they totally undercut her at
the end by being like and she kind of apologizes
to John Voyd a little bit. She like is a
secondary party to the adventure, just like she said she
always hated being and then she kisses him at the end,
and you're just like, well, we certainly lost track of
this character in the third act. Yes, she's also damseled,

(01:23:22):
as is Abigail. She does do one thing, Well, what
did you think of this? I guess I was sort
of neutral on this as a plot point where Ed
Harris is like, you better not tell John Vod what
this means, or else kill him, and he shows he
has like an old timey pistol and you're like, huh, okay,

(01:23:46):
interesting plan. And so she has the knowledge but can't
give it to John Void and then she insults him
and then is like, I wish I hadn't drink that tequila.
I hate this man. I didn't hate that scene because
it wasn't like she she had the information, but she
couldn't do to the old timey pistol.

Speaker 2 (01:24:05):
So here's my interpretation and problem with this scene. Okay,
So she doesn't tell him the truth. She gives him
like a fake translation that has something to do with
a hummingbird. Yeah, and she tells that to John Voight.
John Voight brings that information to Nicholas Cage, which he
realizes off screen is a clue, and he's like, wow, mom,

(01:24:26):
good work with the hummingbird clue. But we don't understand
what it is, what that's a reference to.

Speaker 3 (01:24:33):
So we can't bad writing.

Speaker 2 (01:24:34):
It's just bad writing. Because and so like if we
could see her logic and we understand why she gave
this particular clue and what it refers to and blah
blah blah, then we could see like, oh, she's smart.

Speaker 3 (01:24:46):
Because yeah, she secretly gave the right answer.

Speaker 2 (01:24:49):
Yeah, something like that.

Speaker 3 (01:24:50):
But I honestly didn't even register that because this movie,
I just feel like at some point my brain's just
like loop, like it just turns to goo and I'm
just like, he's gonna find it City of Gold. I
better just sit my ass down and watch.

Speaker 2 (01:25:04):
I do think the movie is relying on your brain,
like everyone's brain doing that so they don't question the
very bad logic that's always happening.

Speaker 3 (01:25:12):
That's why they make Nicholas Cage periodically argue with children
and do other things that don't matter, so that you're just.

Speaker 2 (01:25:18):
Like, whoa, that's funny, and it is it is, and
they are correct. But that would have been so much
more satisfactory if we understood the clue that she gives
that is actually like helpful, But we don't understand, so
it's just like a blah nothing thing.

Speaker 3 (01:25:36):
And what's more, we get the really frustrating convention that
we see in movies all the time, where it's like
a sequel time we got a second woman, but she's
not gonna be talking to the one from the first movie,
even though they're constantly in the same scenes and in
the same rooms. I believe that, I mean, this is
getting a little ahead of her, but it's like they
say hello to each other at one point, they hug

(01:25:56):
a couple of times, but they never talk, which is
so wild because it seems like the movie has lazily
like the only way you could, for me justify this
writing two very similar characters, which I mean, to be fair,
Patrick Gates, Benjamin Franklin Gates very similar guys. Yeah, so okay,

(01:26:17):
if that's not, you know, a lazy gendered choice, I
think that you owe it to those characters to let
them talk to each other. Do I think if these
women had a scene together they would talk about anything
other than the puzzle? Guys? Probably not. But I think
that like even having I mean, any scene between these
two characters makes a lot of sense, and the movie's

(01:26:40):
just like not interested in scene that I think would
have been really good and like firmly, firmly fits within
the context of this world. But of course we don't
get that in this Jerry Bruckheimer movie, because why would we?

Speaker 2 (01:26:59):
Why would frustrating? Can we talk a little bit more
about Abigail's relationship to Ben, which is very reflective of
what it was like in the first movie, where he
spends most of the first movie being like, shut up,
you're so annoying. Quit being so angry at me that
I stole the Declaration of Independence. You're overreacting, blah blah blah.

Speaker 3 (01:27:20):
This is now canon to their relationship, and she's fine
with it, question Mark.

Speaker 2 (01:27:24):
Well until she kicks him out of the house. So basically,
he's explaining to Riley why Abigail kicked him out of
their house, and he says something like, oh, she kept
saying stuff like, oh, Ben, I guess you think my
opinion doesn't matter. I guess you always know what's best,

(01:27:45):
So I guess I'm invisible. And so what he's describing
is him being a shitty, condescending, inattentive partner. And as
he's relaying this information to Riley, he's framing it like,
what a bitch, how dare she think I'm dismissive of
her and her feelings.

Speaker 3 (01:28:05):
Which could be a legitimate story choice if he grows
and changes in any way throughout the course of the movie,
and then even then she doesn't need to take him back.
H Right, But that doesn't You didn't even get the
chance to consider that because Benjamin Franklin Gates, like many
people will never change, He will never improve, he will

(01:28:27):
never stop seeing puzzles, and he will never stop telling
his girlfriend to shut the hell up. And so that
is someone that you leave. But yeah, it was really
really frustrating where when that happened, because I didn't remember
the ins and outs of the emotional journey of National
Treasure too, Whereas like, is there any chance that he
or John Voight, who I like think is like a

(01:28:51):
fraction a millimeter ahead of Ben's character in like at
least he is criticized to his face and sort of
takes it. He pon. It doesn't mean that he changes
very much, but he doesn't, you know, say shut up,
you know, in the way that Ben tends to when
criticized by anyone, especially Abigail. But Ben doesn't change at all.

(01:29:15):
He does the whole movie from the first one over
again but more and then at the end she's And
I feel like it also played into this was just
like I think this was just bad writing, but I
feel like it played into this like trope that surrounds
women of like, well, well, actually, I don't know what
did you think about this? Like there was this like
thing that came up A couple of times where they're

(01:29:37):
having this argument in England and she says, I think,
like not the worst point where he like makes assumptions
about her and then acts on those assumptions instead of
having a conversation with her. And she's like, even if
you think you know the answer to what I'm going
to say, and even if you're right, you still have
to have that conversation with me. Yeah, which is basic

(01:29:57):
emotional intelligence, but like, okay, interesting that they had that conversation.
He does not learn from this, and he does not
change because in the last shot of the movie, he
makes an assumption about what she's thinking and feeling because
she says the word so, and he's like, well, when
you say the word so, you're mad. And then she
sort of repeats a more convoluted version of what she

(01:30:19):
said earlier in the movie, which is, no, you can't
just tell me what I feel based on a weird
assumption You're making. What I meant to say is I
love you and move back in with me. And so
it is like almost like I was like, ooh, where
is this going? Is this gonna go anywhere? Of course
it's not, because I feel like the weird conclusion it

(01:30:39):
reaches like women don't actually say what they mean, which
is like.

Speaker 2 (01:30:44):
Right, and again he does not earn this invitation to
move back in with her because he has demonstrated zero growth.

Speaker 3 (01:30:54):
So it's just like and not for nothing, What does
this mean for typearell tyberal things. He's about to get married.

Speaker 2 (01:31:02):
Yeah, he just got hardcore made out with in the
Oval office. He's got a raging boner for weeks from that.

Speaker 3 (01:31:10):
Probably he and Riley should hang out because they just
like I think that they just need to like start
getting drinks on the weekend and like being buds because yeah,
they're just being disrespected right and left. Yeah, No, I
mean it's like hard to talk about Abigail and Ben's
relationship because it's like she much like the first movie,

(01:31:32):
and I think even more in this one, like just
behave so irrationally, like not in a way that makes sense,
And I feel like it's a little if I'm remembering correctly,
it's a little tighter in the first movie because you're
meeting her for the first time and so she pushes
back more. But now it's just like, well, obviously she's
in love with Nicholas Cage, so we could kind of

(01:31:55):
have her do anything, they're gonna end up back together,
and that feels like maybe why the writing in Helen
Mirren's character is a little more coherent because we're meeting her,
but it just their relationship absolutely sucks. She should take
his big old house and dump him, dump Tibrell, do whatever,

(01:32:17):
just don't get back together with this guy. Yeah, this
is bad.

Speaker 2 (01:32:19):
I agree.

Speaker 3 (01:32:20):
You've got your puzzle treasure from movie one. Leave it
at that which brings us to the treasure. Yes, we
had a different version of this discussion in our first episode,
I believe. Yeah, like we were talking about earlier, the
second that they bring Indigenous American culture into this. You
know that this Jerry Bruckheimer funded movie is going to

(01:32:42):
absolutely fumble, erase, disrespect, not care about Indigenous people or
indigenous history or redistribution or anything that would make logical
sense in this situation.

Speaker 2 (01:32:56):
Right, So here's the I've gathered and keep in mind
listeners that I'm not a historian or an anthropologist.

Speaker 3 (01:33:08):
You're a Helen Merrin.

Speaker 2 (01:33:09):
I have a master's degree in screenwriting from Boston University,
a fact that I would never mention. Those are my credentials.
So the information I have is mostly from wiki, pds,
scholarly journal or just like things I already knew with
my brain, because.

Speaker 3 (01:33:28):
With your brain and everything, Because like.

Speaker 2 (01:33:33):
This movie makes so many missteps that even if you
have the slightest understanding of geography or time, you would
know that everything that happens in this movie doesn't make
any sense. So they find the piece of wood that
has markings on it that appear in They keep referring

(01:33:56):
to it as like an ancient Native American language. Different
ideas are floated. They're like, oh, it looks Incan or Aztec.
Later on they say that they think it's Olmec, so
they're sort of speculating. They think they identify one symbol
on this piece of wood that means sebola, So they

(01:34:17):
look up sibola in a history book of secrets. Not sure,
but what it says there is that in fifteen twenty seven,
a Spanish ship wrecked off of the coast of Florida.
There was one survivor who was a slave named Esteban,
who saved a tribe's dying chief and as a reward,

(01:34:41):
he was taken to the tribe's sacred city built of
solid gold. And then later when Esteban tried to find
the city again. He never could, but the legend grew
and explorers came to the New World in search of
the city. And so that's like the information that Ben

(01:35:02):
and Riley and Patrick and all these characters are working on.
But they're like, we still don't know what this message means.
So they take it to an expert in a language
that they refer to as and I quote ancient Native American,
as if there is one language shared among all Indigenous

(01:35:23):
Americans and that language is called Native American.

Speaker 3 (01:35:26):
Which, unfortunately, I mean, I don't think I had any
institutional knowledge to severely questioned as a fourteen year.

Speaker 2 (01:35:36):
Old like, well no, based on what little we learn
about indigenous people in American schools.

Speaker 3 (01:35:43):
I think there are many elements to this becus sound ridiculous,
but like there are elements to the National Treasure movies
that just like really clearly illustrate like how vague americans
general understanding of American history is. Yeah, yeah, this is
like a really really damning example.

Speaker 2 (01:36:03):
Absolutely. So they go to Helen Mirren, who is, you know,
an expert in the language of quote unquote ancient Native American,
and they're like, oh, we think it's Olmec, and she's like, yeah,
I think so. After all their puzzles includes blah blah blah,
they find the city of Gold under Mount Rushmore, which

(01:36:27):
is in South Dakota, famously, So, just to recap and
put all of this information together, a slave was taken
to a place off the coast of Florida, which is
somehow also South Dakota, to a secret city of an
unspecified indigenous tribe which may or may not have been Olmec,

(01:36:50):
which does track for the meso American architecture that we
see of the City of Gold at the end of
the movie. But South Dakota and Florida are famously not
near each other. They're not near each other, nor are
they meso Americas or American.

Speaker 3 (01:37:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:37:07):
Also, the Omech people did not inhabit either of those
places of Florida or South Dakota. And the Olmecs existed
from fifteen hundred BC to about four hundred BC, meaning
that they were not around when the conquistadors were coming
to this region of meso America to colonize and steal

(01:37:31):
land and steal materials and gold and all that stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:37:34):
Brain.

Speaker 2 (01:37:35):
So when this Spanish ship crashed off the coast of
Florida in fifteen twenty seven. The Omech people had not
been around for about two thousand years.

Speaker 3 (01:37:46):
So this is thank you for doing this research, because
I knew it was wrong, but I didn't know it
was that many flavors of wrong.

Speaker 2 (01:37:58):
Yeah, And like you said, this is all verytive of
the way white American culture and our like education system
number one treats indigenous cultures as a monolith because they
are like jumping around in time, they're jumping around geographically,
and they're just saying, well, it's Native American, so it

(01:38:20):
doesn't matter that we're referring to a tribe from like
millennia ago who were in a completely different geographic region.

Speaker 3 (01:38:29):
Yeah, like doesn't acknowledge any of the diversity within indigenous culture.
Speaks about Indigenous Americans as if they no longer.

Speaker 2 (01:38:35):
Exist exactly, yes, and that like.

Speaker 3 (01:38:39):
White American treasure hunters therefore are entitled to whatever they find,
which is one of the most colonial pieces of thought
that exists, is that you can just steal and claim
it as your own, and that this is an act
of valor, and this is an act of like that
you should be out of and profit off of is stealing.

(01:39:03):
It's like almost hard to talk about because the story
you just described is so fucking convoluted. But like I mean,
and in two thousand and seven, making this for a
white American audience, which like this movie very clearly is
written in gibberish, Like there is no doubt in the
way the movie is presented and in the way that

(01:39:25):
in most public American schools is taught that there's anything
wrong with this that like a white American guy finding
a treasury that belongs to a culture that is not
his own, finders keepers it's mine, And this is like
just colonial logic and the reason that you know, many

(01:39:46):
museums exist the way they do, the way the wealth
is distributed and stolen. I mean, it's just like I'm
sure we're not saying anything that listeners of this show
don't know already, but it's just like presented so blatantly
in a way that I don't even know would be
possible to do now. But this movie came up fifteen
years ago, Like it's not an old movie at all,

(01:40:09):
and it's so like I don't know, I mean, I
was really curious, not optimistic of how it would be handled,
or even if the iconic character the President of the
United States, the upholder of American white supremacy, would react
to this piece of information, and like, we don't really know,

(01:40:30):
it's unclear what's going to happen at the end, but
we know that the Gates family will once again profit
off of it.

Speaker 2 (01:40:36):
Absolutely. So I'm glad you brought that up, because there's
that scene when Ben Gates is kidnapping the President and
the President is loving it and it's getting a horny
but then he's like, why would I tell you where
my Book of secrets is? And Ben says, because it
will probably lead to the discovery of the greatest Native
American treasure of all time, a huge piece of culture lost,

(01:41:00):
and give that history back to its descendants. And you're like, Okay,
if you do find this treasure, it absolutely should go
back to the Native people you're trying to steal it from.
But he's talking about himself, right, Yeah. The ethos of
this movie is, oh, well, you know Native people in

(01:41:24):
the New World, they did have this rich culture, but
it got left behind somehow. I don't know how that happened,
but it's ours now to find and to take because
Native people are a thing of the past and they
don't exist anymore.

Speaker 3 (01:41:41):
And we're honoring them by taking this right.

Speaker 2 (01:41:44):
They're part of history. So this treasure is ours to
turn into a fun adventure.

Speaker 3 (01:41:51):
There's no talk of redistributing, I mean not to mention.
Much like the First National Treasure, it is like essentially
all white cast There are a handful of black actors
in minor roles, including a black government worker who's kind
of bullied for bringing up that. This is during the

(01:42:16):
Hotel debacle, but there is a black government employee who
brings up to a white government employee like there's a
rumor going on that the hotel that the President of
the United States wants to hold his birthday at used
to be a place where the clan would meet, right,
And the white government employees says, well, is it true,

(01:42:36):
and like immediately just starts like giving this guy shit,
and that black government employee response, it doesn't really matter
if it's true, we should move the party, and all
the white government employees get so annoyed they're making like
it's just like this movie. Yeah, it's doing absolutely I

(01:42:58):
mean less than nothing.

Speaker 2 (01:42:59):
There's another black character who kind of teams up with
Ed Harris, who again is the descendant of a Confederate
general who the again, the movie nor any of the
characters care about question at all. They're like, oh wow,
a general and an army. Good for him, the same thing,
but the.

Speaker 3 (01:43:17):
Way that they like very much excuse the Queen of
England for being like for being sympathetic to the Confederacy.
They're like, well, she just didn't want a division in America.
So and you're like, no, she's racist, Like it's a
very easily illustrated argument that the Queen of England is racist,

(01:43:39):
Like what are you talking about?

Speaker 2 (01:43:43):
Ugh? Yes, So it really adds insult to injury in
this movie, in particular with the treasure being this indigenous treasure,
this indigenous city on stolen land, where the people going
after this treasure are all white, and many of them
are from a family who was descended from people who

(01:44:07):
were actively colonizing the New World and taking the land
and lives of the indigenous people who centuries later would
steal this treasure from because like we cut to like,
I guess the government excavating this city and they don't
even seem to be doing it properly. Because Helen Mirren's like,

(01:44:29):
are you cataloging this and they're just like nope, And
so you just like have all of these like white
American federal government people like infiltrating this place, and then has.

Speaker 3 (01:44:41):
Turned into this weird joke where it's like, instead of
acknowledging that the American government does not give a shit
about Indigenous history, it cuts to John Voight, the King
of Republicans, being like, you should have tried buying a
couch with this lady. And I was like, oh my god,
what the hell are we doing here?

Speaker 2 (01:45:02):
Yeah, what's going on? Yes, So all of that absolutely sucks. Yeah,
and that's all I have to say about this movie.

Speaker 3 (01:45:12):
Yeah. I mean, in terms of any sort of progressivism,
this movie is doing less than nothing. It is, truly,
I think, one of the most jingoistic franchises of our generation.
And in that way, I think if we're being you know,
like just sort of legacy wise, it makes it worse

(01:45:33):
that they're not straight up bad movies. It makes it
worse that they're fun to watch, because it's like, if
these movies go down easy and they're the romp is Undeniable.

Speaker 2 (01:45:42):
Ten out of ton on the rampometer. You can't deny it.

Speaker 3 (01:45:45):
Then it's much easier to accept and glaze over, which
like we have done in the course of this episode,
because it is a fun movie to watch and its
core message is empty and baseless. It's not so anything
new in terms of like the emptiness of how American
history is viewed. It feels like it's ill. It's just

(01:46:06):
illustrates how ingrained the sort of white supremacist line of
thinking is in America that you can build a big,
goofy action movie around it, And at least at the time,
there was not a big questioning of the way that
history is presented, where it's like understood that it's not
a documentary, as I've argued it, but it's also like

(01:46:29):
not presented. But the things that it was picked apart for.
I went through some of the original reviews. The historical
inaccuracies that's pulled apart for are not the ones we
just discussed, right, They are like, well, actually, this guy
that believes in the Confederacy actually believed in this version
of the Confederacy, And you're like, that's not the thing

(01:46:49):
we should really be putting a big old hell and
mirror magnifying glass. To remember the scene where she has
a big old magnifying glass.

Speaker 2 (01:46:56):
Oh wow.

Speaker 3 (01:46:57):
Anyways, yeah, this I mean, and and it doesn't pass
the backtel test. Not for nothing. It doesn't pass the
back to test. No, and I have to give it
no nipples. I think, I think I have to give
it none.

Speaker 2 (01:47:09):
Yeah, I agree, zero nipples on our nipple scale, in
which we examine the movie on a scale of zero
to five nipples based on looking at it through an
intersectional feminist lens, but based on everything we've discussed, as
far as the piss poor treatment of the characters who
are women.

Speaker 3 (01:47:29):
The blatant disregard for history.

Speaker 2 (01:47:32):
There's not a single Native person in the movie.

Speaker 3 (01:47:36):
That revolves around a native treasure. We can't give you
more information because, as you just explained, Kalen, it doesn't
make any fucking sense. And unfortunately it's a very fun
movie to watch in many ways. Yeah, there's really not
I don't know. I like, I really it's true. I
hope that our listeners like enjoy listening to these episodes.
These movies are so incoherent, they're very goofy, but also

(01:47:59):
like we want to acknowledge, you know, the kind of
ideology that they're reinforcing. Yeah, because that does still happen
in movies for sure. And I feel like the action
genre is sort of a very common offender of this
specific kind of misrepresentation.

Speaker 2 (01:48:16):
Especially this subgenre, because we've treasure hunting, Yeah, the treasure hunting,
and even in like the Dora episode, it like does
a slightly better job at handling this, but it still
fumbled a lot of stuff. So these like, yeah, adventure
go on a quest to find treasure movies almost always completely.

Speaker 3 (01:48:38):
Is taken from another culture that the movie has no
interest in.

Speaker 2 (01:48:41):
Yeah for sure.

Speaker 3 (01:48:42):
Yeah, so zero nipples, no nipples, a million Bruckheimer teeth.

Speaker 2 (01:48:49):
Forty seven pages of secrets in a book who knows?

Speaker 3 (01:48:55):
Who knows? Anyways, we hope that you enjoyed this episode.
Are not annual because we I mean, unfortunately it's all
over the place in movies, but our you know, jingoistic
nonsense movie of the Year, National Treasure two Book of Secrets.
If you know it was on page forty seven, hit

(01:49:16):
us up.

Speaker 2 (01:49:16):
Please, And the places you could hit us up, for
example are Twitter and Instagram.

Speaker 3 (01:49:23):
If you know it's on page forty seven, yeah, we
where you can follow us at Bechtel Cast.

Speaker 2 (01:49:29):
You can subscribe to our Patreon aka Matreon. You get
five sorry, you get two bonus episodes every month for
five dollars, as well as the back catalog of something
like one hundred and almost one hundred and fifty fifty
or so. And yeah, we're having a hell of a

(01:49:49):
time over there. We just wrapped up.

Speaker 3 (01:49:52):
Junion Month, which is our union themed episodes. We do
an in depth explainer of the WGA strike, and we
also covered newsies and there's there's more some of fun
to come over on the Matreon, So please join us
over there. And in the meantime, I'm gonna go to

(01:50:14):
borders to get a copy of a story that's definitely open,
to get a copy of my man Riley's book. He's
got to move copies. Someone's got to read it, someone's
got to read it. On some page forty seven of
Riley's book, literally no one knows, no one's ever gotten
that far except Hervey Kaitel, What.

Speaker 2 (01:50:32):
A good friend. I'm gonna crack open a bottle of
aquafina and.

Speaker 3 (01:50:38):
Bored on the nearest rock God that there is the
moment where, like these movies at the midpoint they just could.
It's so brain dead that you're just like, oh, they're
gonna pour water on a rock? Yeah, brilliant, Sure, God
fucking damn it.

Speaker 2 (01:50:53):
Well, I guess they ran out of good ideas.

Speaker 3 (01:50:56):
Yeah, this which this movie is full of. Oh I
would like to just quickly one more time, shout out
Nicholas Cage arguing with the child added nothing to the movie,
but added a lot to my life.

Speaker 2 (01:51:07):
Oh and hey, while we're speaking of books, you should
read Rod Dog. Everyone you haven't.

Speaker 3 (01:51:14):
Already dog, Yes, it's true.

Speaker 2 (01:51:17):
It is what secrets are in that book of it
looks secrets.

Speaker 3 (01:51:22):
Page forty seven of Raw Dog. Oh, baby, you don't
even want to wait. Actually, let's find out. I've got
a copy right here. Amazing, Okay, page forty seven. This
is what they don't want you to know. Forty seven.
Oh it's it's the whole page about an anthropomorphized pickle
named garlic. Joe. Yes, I read about Joe. That's my

(01:51:48):
book of secrets.

Speaker 2 (01:51:49):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (01:51:50):
Check it out. You can get it wherever books are sold.
And it's pretty anti America. Helly, And with

Speaker 2 (01:51:57):
That, happy summer bye,

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