Secretary with Ashley Ray

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everyone. Before the episode starts, we just wanted to
do some quick content warnings. We want to be better
about doing those moving forward, so just to let you know.
In the discussion we talk about self harm as well
as physical and sexual assault. And now here's the episode.
On the Doll Cast, the questions asked if movies have

(00:22):
women and um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and
husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef invest
start changing it with the beck Del cast. Jamie, do
you want to start this one? No? I don't know
what to say. Okay, me either. Oh here's something okay right?

(00:43):
Oh oh Jamie, I hate the way you're you sniffle.
You're always sniffling. Okay, let's have sex. Wow. Welcome to
the bed Time and iconic intro that passed the vessels
it did, um well, but welcome anyways. That's literally just

(01:09):
something that happens in the movie. That was a that
was just that was This is a re enacting a
dramatic reenactment. Sniff, Um, so today's movie. Okay, wait where
are we? This is the backtel cast. Welcome, Um, my
name is Caitlin Darante. My name is Jamie Loftus and

(01:30):
this is a podcast about the representation of women in
movies as well as just an overall examination of film
through an intersectional feminist lens. We use the Backtel test
as a jumping off point for a discussion, that being
a media matric invented by queer cartoonist Allison back Dol,

(01:51):
sometimes called the back Doll Wallace test that requires that
to female identifying or or non male genders, characters with
names talk to each other about something other than a man,
such as just now when you heard uh, the I sniffed,
and then Caitlin and I mutually decided to have sex.
That actually is more than we did, more than with them.

(02:14):
We actually gave consent. There was Yes, there was consent
discussed almost instinctually, like that's just like what one would
do it right, not to tune our real consent heads.
I love consent. So today's movie is Secretary, and we
have a guest who we are very excited about. She

(02:34):
is amazing writer comedian Ashley Ray. I'm so happy to
be here. I'm so excited to talk about this movie specifically. Yeah, yeah,
I gosh, there's so much to talk about, so much,
uh This movie has meant so much to me, and
I haven't watched it in a long time, but watching
it again it just reaffirmed how much it it just

(02:58):
imprinted on me as a child. Did you see it
when it first came out, like what's your full hit? Yeah? Yeah,
it came out in two thousand, that is when I
was like ten years old. But I got a laptop
when I was like twelve. I went to this school
where they gave everyone a laptop in sixth grade, which
is a stupid thing to do. And I would just

(03:22):
like make live journal accounts and download movies, like there
were live journal account where people would just like share
indie movies and that's how I would like watch like
French lesbian films. And then someone put up Secretary and
I remember the day being like that poster it's like
iconic with like the stockings and her bent over, and

(03:42):
I was like, this is something I've got to see,
and I downloaded it on my laptop and I I
just remember watching it with headphones and being like I
cannot let my mom know this is happening. So that's like,
that's that age when you're like figuring out weird inks.
I feel like or at least like you know. Yeah,

(04:03):
and I now realized probably percent of my canks were
inspired by this movie, which is bad, probably horrible. The
point is that it happened exactly. I wonder. I mean,
I feel like I would be such a different person
if I had access to a laptop at twelve years old. Yeah.
I don't know why anyone thought that was a good idea.

(04:26):
My school still does it to this day. All sixth graders,
you get a laptop, you get to keep it until
you graduate. I watched so I watched like Pink, Flamingos
and just horrible movies at a really young age. Oh
my god. And this is this is probably why I
came out as like Queer and Polly. By the time
I was seventeen, I was like, been there, done it.
I've seen it. James Spader showed me how Uh Now,

(04:49):
it's just unlearning. It's a lot of unlearning, all the damage,
all the movies due to us as young people. Wow,
I didn't own a laptop until I was well into
my twenties, so I didn't get one to college. That
seems like a healthy age. Those seems those are healthy ages. Yeah. Yeah,

(05:13):
like by then you're just like, oh, porn is such
an exciting luxury. It becomes a luxury thing because you
don't have to watch it on a desktop anymore. But
then that kind of comes all the way around, and
then later in your life you're like, I can watch
you know, once you live on your own, you can
watch porn on a desktop again, big screen, and then
it's a different kind of luxury. Yeah, exactly, Jamie. What

(05:35):
about you? What's your relationship with this movie. I've never
seen this movie. I've known about it for a long time,
and I have a feeling that if I had seen
it when I was in like middle school, high school,
I would have really really loved it and it would
have had like a real effect on me. But I didn't.
I don't know, I just missed it, and I started

(05:56):
hearing more about it. I think it was like when
the fifty shape Its movies were coming up, this movie
was coming up over and over and over. It is like,
this is the alternative. If you think fifties shade sucks,
you just gotta go back and watch Secretary. So that
was kind of like where I would That was like
my point of entry because we've covered fifty shades on
this show, and in retrospect, I'm not I'm not totally.

(06:18):
I'm like the I see what people are saying, but like,
maybe they should have. Really, it's definitely a better written movie.
Well so every movie is a better written movie. And
it's definitely very a very well acted movie too. But
then but on the relationship level, I was like, I don't,

(06:38):
I don't quite see it. I'm excited to talk about it.
He's like the original Mr Gray, like they even have
the same name. Yeah, this was the watch where I
was like, oh my mind blown, wow, wow, connecting the pieces.
It embarrassingly took me until sevent into the movie to
be like, oh my gosh, a Mr. Pray for an

(07:01):
hour and a half. I've heard this before. I've seen
this before, but this time it's with Maggie Jellenhall, and
I'm like, I mean, I also like dakode to Johnson,
but it's just she wasn't set up for success in
that franchise. She was not anyways, Okay, what's your what's
your heads story with this movie? Um, I didn't see
it right away because it came out in two To write, um,

(07:21):
I probably didn't see it until I I think I
saw it when I was working as an assistant. I've
talked about this job before on the podcast because it
traumatized me. I was working as an assistant to a
literary manager in New York who was extremely verbally and
emotionally abusive to me and I I guess I was

(07:44):
just like watching media in which other people are verbally
and emotionally abused by their boss. I guess, just to
relate or have something to relate to. I'm not sure exactly. UM.
I didn't connect very much with the movie at that point,
and then UM rewatching it. There's a lot I struggled with. UM.

(08:06):
I tried to because I worked as a secretary every
summer for like four summers at the Comptroller's office, and
I was like the assistant comptroller secretary, and it was
it was I couldn't I mean, just based on my
own experience, I couldn't plug myself in because I was
like I just me and Scott. This just didn't exist
with us. I was a church secretary from like eighth

(08:31):
grade throughout high school. I wasn't like religious, but they
paid me ten dollars an hour. It was just a
really good gig and it was Yeah, it was hard,
you know, as it was hard to to see myself
in that role necessarily, but I did understand a lot
of her duties as as a secretary. I did have
to use a typewriter. I related to that too. Well,
you got the full typewriter treatment. Yeah. They it was

(08:53):
a pretty old church and they were just like, this
is how we do baptism certificates. Get used to it,
classy like. Um, So anyway, yeah, I, um, I don't
like this movie. I'll just come out and say it.
But but I yeah, I don't. I don't have any
of the attachment to it or any of like the
nostalgia or anything. So I was coming in it with

(09:14):
pretty fresh eyes. Um. But there's a lot to discuss. Yeah,
there is, so there's so much to talk. I mean,
it's I I guess like I was kind of assuming.
I was like, oh, this is like probably one of
those like cut and dry deals where it's like, well
it was like written by men about women, and so
you know, there's just gonna be uh, it's kind of

(09:36):
a nonstarter to an extent in most cases, but this
is not the case for this movie. It's there's so
many there's so many layers. It was really interesting researching
like the two female writers that like shaped this story
very differently, including the screenwriter who's like really fixated on
like women with mental illness and punishing them but being like,

(10:01):
but it was good for her, Like she's she's got
a whole it's such a hyper specific vibe. But when
I was looking at her list of works, I'm like, whoa,
that is really the theme. Yeah, it's it's this weird
thing where the character she is she's dealing with mental illness.
She's she's fresh out of an institution in a hospital,
but they also treat her like this newborn baby like

(10:22):
in a pool, who like knows nothing and it's so
naive and it's just like, oh my god, what is
a man? And then she's just like a perfect baby
for James Spader to just like imprint on. But at
the same time they're like, well, no, see, she's just
like so brilliant and complex because she has mental illness
and she could just like understand him, and it just

(10:45):
like wants to have it both ways. And it's like, way,
does she this like innocent child who knows nothing or
is she this like super genius like person who can
read his mind? Like what what is she supposed to be?
They pick and choose, and I feel like that actually,
when I was younger, that those types of characters were
so appealing to me because they were like parts of me,

(11:06):
Like when you're a twelve or thirteen, like you want
to be perceived kind of in both of those ways, like,
and so making an adult character that way is a
choice that is going to appeal to that Is she
an adult? Because look at her? Is she an adult?
Is like black Swan's like she's like stickers everywhere? Like

(11:32):
what age is she? If someone told me she was
like eighteen, I'd be like I could see it, Like
what what age is she? It's really confusing. I wasn't
sure if it was supposed to be like she is
maybe like yeah, like a really young adult and maybe
she just has her like kid room and she's fresh
out of high school, or if they were like going

(11:54):
for a Black Swan kind of thing where they're like, no,
she's definitely too old for this, but we're just going
to trap her here to send to say something. But
I wasn't sure what idea The closest thing to any
kind of indication is when she's talking to Peter, who
she knew in high school, who she like ends up
dating for a little while and then being engaged to.

(12:17):
But she's like, you're so different from how you were
in high school, and it seems like about how long
ago was that? But how long a you don't know.
Also she has she's in the bathtub at one point
and she like has this very like childlike snow globe
that apparently is like part of her like and then

(12:38):
she's like, no, I'm over this snow glob and then
she throws it away. I'm pretty sure there's like a
rubber ducky in there. Like just so much of that
made it uncomfortable. And it's like if they had just
firmly kind of like aged her up, like have her
just once referred to dropping out of college or something,

(12:59):
I feel like it would have the dynamic a little better.
But this whole first part of the movie, you're like, Okay,
so she she is a child who's jealous of her
sister's wedding, Like right there was like there, I feel
like they wanted you to look at her as a
baby to some But but if that's true, then it
kind of makes the whole thing a little more sinister.

(13:19):
There were a few of those moments that where it
was like, again, I was like, if I saw this
when I was thirteen, I would have been like, holy
sh it, Like just like symbolism moments when she takes
the snow globe and she's like the snow glow. Yeah,
that that one got me. That was the moment when
I was I was like, yeah, that girl, when she
threw that snow globe, I was like, I'm in, I'm in,

(13:41):
this is me, this is my lifestyle now. It's I mean,
and and I will say watching it now, I did
hate it. I saw every problem, but I also did
see this way where I was like thirteen or you
know whatever, and I was like, oh my god, of
course I thought this was the sexiest thing in the world,
like him just telling her what to eat for dinner

(14:01):
and how of course I'd be like, oh my god,
that's so hot that that someone would like take the
time and care to do that. You know. I I
was a latch key kid. I had to feed myself,
so that obviously super hot to me. And it's just
you know, the I feel like it just sexualizes things
in this kind of non sexy way where you're like, Okay,
I guess I can work with this, even though I'm

(14:22):
still really not clear on who this woman is or
what exactly she wants or why she has decided this
lifestyle speaks to her. There's a lot to latch onto
with Lee, which is like part of I don't know
it was. I was so in and out because it's like, yeah,
that not watching it now, the problems are very clear.
But it also it's like it's very like of its

(14:44):
time in a lot of ways, and I don't know
what about that yet. That masturbation scene very early two thousands.
This like this like just visually trippy, like as all
girls know, the way we masturbate as we like vision
of flower opening and we're sitting in the middle of it,

(15:04):
and then the boy that we have a crush on
appears and like washes our hair. Of course that's how
girls masterbace. It's very MTV two visuals, just like fireworks,
weird like green screen stuff happening. But then again I
was just like, okay, so she's like fourteen years old.

(15:24):
Like that was another thing where you're like, okay, she's
a baby. She's I think she's probably legally an adult,
but either way, the the age gap between her and
Mr Gray is pretty substantial. And that's the other. That's another.
This is a I hate James Spader. I hate him
so much that words cannot describe how much I think

(15:45):
he is the worst. Yeah. I don't know how he gets.
I just I hate him so much. But anyway, that's
neither here nor there. If it was, I've heard he
is a very like, not nice person. Yeah, oh, I thought,
do you just dislike him as a performer. I just
hate him because I hate him as an actor. I
think I just the roles he tends, at least of

(16:06):
the ones I've seen that he's in. I find him
loaths some like he's in that movie Crash, like the
horny car Crash movie. I found him really creepy in
that movie. I found him really creepy and sex lives
and videotape like everything he's in. And then this movie,
like everything he's in that I've seen, I just I
find him really I feel like this is his last

(16:26):
like hot movie. This is the last time we saw
like a hot James Spader, So maybe so maybe we
celebrate it for that sure, and only that that's so long.
He's like, I gotta go be an Avengers age of Ultron.
Now the black List. He had a show called like

(16:48):
the Blacklist, right, it ran for like ten years or
something like, He's been on so many things for ten
years that I didn't know existed. He well, he was
on the Office to right like after people Stop California.
Oh that's a good name. Yeah, he was on Boston Legal.
My mom watched the hat the My mom love Boston Legal.

(17:09):
He gets a lot of work, and I just don't
know why I don't. I don't get it. Not here
for James Spader. I think he's still kind of like
writing that like his first wave of success because he
was in so many like he was the sexy guy
in so many movies and now he's just kind of
set for life or that that's my guess, Secretary. Yeah,
it's an ode to sexiness. Yeah, Like I feel like

(17:32):
you're it enriches the experience if you knew, like because
if I just saw James Spader, I'm like, that's the guy. Like,
but because you know, like he has this icon like
sex icon status, which I don't get it just to
be Mr Gray, Like, at no point in the movie
is he an interesting or charismatic character. Like She's just like,

(17:56):
he's so complex, I can see why he's hurting. And
then James, it just looks like constipated and he's then
he's just like I gotta go just knock out some
push ups. And that's him the entire movie. It's just
like he's running on a treadmill. Yeah, I gotta take
care of my or kids. So like, where's your personality, bro? Yeah,
oh yeah, he's like vagina symbol in his office and

(18:19):
then you have to watch. You know, he's a good
guy because he can handle the vagina flowers and not
everybody can do that feminist icon. Yes, they like kind
of set this thing up in the beginning where like
it seems like he has a domp. There's like this
ex woman who comes in and like stomps all over
his stuff and I was like, oh good, I'm gonna
love it if like he gets it handed to him.

(18:42):
But then in the end she's like, no, he is
a genius and he slipped through my fingers and I
just wish I had been as smart as you Lee
to capture him. And it's like wait, so wait, you
were like so angry and came into his office because
this guy, who we've literally never heard say anything smart,
is just so brilliant that you, like you just had

(19:03):
to storm down there to yell at him to sign
divorce papers. What. Yeah, because it's a he's like he's
a genius at what at lawyer? He doesn't even seem
like a good lawyer by the way, ever, all the
case notes we heard, Yeah, there's like one time where
he's just like, I told you to send the notes

(19:23):
on the case house and it just sounds like something
like like a writer was like, this is how lawyers talk.
We'll just have him say it through the door. Just
he can add live Spader will phill it in. Don't
even worry. He knows he was on Boston Legal. There.
The thing I will say about I mean, there's a
lot of things to say about James Spader, but I
was stroke. Maybe it's like my TV, but I had

(19:45):
to turn up the volume and turn down the volume
so much watching this movie because he speaks like in
a whisper of the whole kept like cranking my Roku
to eighty and then like slamming it back down. It
was so hard to hear him. That was a question
I actually was going to ask, does it count as
passing the backdel test if you can't hear the man

(20:06):
just if you if he's just whispering, technically doesn't count.
Is Maggie John Hall just talking towards herself? Like right,
because he'll be like piss all the way step into
my office. It's so quiet. There are pivotal scenes I
had to watch like three or four times because like,
I just I can't hear him, my rocos at a hundred,

(20:27):
I can't hear him. There's so just I think, all
the scenes where he's supposed to be. And it's interesting
because you know, I think it would be better if
we saw Lee actually consent to a lot of this
or like approach it with any sort of like passion
or excitement, like oh you know, but we really just
see her like headphones on, like listening to one tape
about being a sub, like being a dom. But most

(20:48):
of it is just James Spader's character being like you
do this, you sniffle too much, and I think you
need to stop touching your hair. And he's just projecting
all of these things onto her and it's just so uncomfortable,
and it's like, if you would have just given some
of that agency to Lee's character, it would have been
a little better, because his character just isn't interesting enough

(21:09):
to carry it. And the whole time he's just like,
I think you'd be happier if you just kept your
shoes on under your desk, and then we're supposed to
be like, holy sh it. He totally gets this girl's
self esteem and what she needs. Yeah, she broke the
snug glow. Well, before we get too far into it,
let's do the recap and then we'll and then we'll

(21:31):
really just let loose. Well, we'll loosen up as she
is told she needs to do by Mr Gray. Listen up,
we'll we'll drink a hot chocolate because she's not old
enough to have an adult beverage. Okay, Um, Actually, let's
take a quick break and then we'll come right back

(21:52):
and do the recap. So the movie is we open
on Lee Holloway. That's Maggie Gyllenhall's character. We see her
doing you know, some office assistant type work. You know,
there's there's papers, they're stapling, she's getting coffee. But while

(22:12):
she's doing all this, she's wearing this kind of bondage
device that suspends and outstretches her arms to either side.
This is an iconic intro scene. I feel like it'll
be remembered throughout her career. It is really cool as
a scene visually. Yeah, Like really put looks you into
the world because it does it. I mean, it's not

(22:33):
until the midpoint of the movie, hello screenwriting degree that
they enter into any sort of like dom sub relationships,
so it takes a while to get there. But this
gives you a nice little, um, you know, foreshadowing of
what's to come. Yeah, and she's also like smiling while
she's doing it, so you're in on it. Like there's
these two moments in the beginning when she kind of

(22:54):
smirks and at the very end when she looks right
at the camera where she's like just so you know,
I'm into this, and I think that's what we're supposed
to take from it, but I wasn't exactly sure. Yeah,
I also had a discussion about that. I was like, oh, okay,
she's breaking the fourth wall to be like, hey, I
know I never said it. Don't ask me. I'm the

(23:16):
one who needs to approve these activities like don't look
at us like. She also stares at the camera and
breaks the fourth wall at the very end Allah Judy
Dench and cats, Like I really thought she was like
about to start singing about cats are not dogs at
the end of this movie. And uh yeah. She also

(23:37):
just looks kind of angry like at the end when
she stares at us, Like at the beginning, it's it's
like this kind of like funny knowing smirk, like, oh,
you're judging me, but I'm enjoying this, And at the
end it's like she's she's angry at us. I don't know.
I don't know what assumption she thinks I'm making, But
at the end, I was mostly just like, so you
went through all of that so that you could just
be like a housewife? Is that was that the goal here?

(24:00):
Wasn't that the not what you wanted? I'm confused. But
you're different from your sister in her marriage because you
guys are into roaches in your bed. That is so
like early two thousand movie though, I feel like it
where it's like, oh, I'm not like the other girls,
but I want all the exact things of the other girls.
But I want my wedding goes to be black, and

(24:22):
we're gonna have sex. We're gonna have sex against tree.
Would a really hit for me when I was twelve,
I was like, what honestly, I was gonna say. When
I was a kid, I watched that scene and I
was not at an age where I fully understood how
sex worked. But I just remember being like, the tree
is a big part of this, Like the trees and
sex go together. I do love having sex on camping

(24:46):
trips now all the time. And I didn't realize like, oh,
the tree is hurting hurting her back, like that's what
it is. But I was just like, no, I think
you need a tree involved in this sex act. That's
how it goes. Yeah, she just wanted to get her
back fucked up against some tree bark because because she
fell in love with the world's most complicated man. Oh

(25:07):
he's so interesting. Ah, he's not like the others. Okay,
So we see this opening scene and then we cut
to six months earlier. Lee has just been released after
having been institutionalized. Um, she's back home. Things are difficult.
Her parents are fighting, her dad is abusive towards her mother.
He's also an alcoholic, and we see her inflicting self harm,

(25:32):
and then we learned that she has a history of
doing this. Then one day she sees an ad in
the paper advertising for a secretary job at a lawyer's office.
So we just say how how she finds it? Though,
because I feel like it's not like she's just going
through the paper looking for a job. She's like throwing
out her kit of like cell of like tools she
used to to harm herself. She goes to the trash can,

(25:53):
throws it out, turns around, and then she's like, I
can't do it, and she goes to get it back out,
and then she sees this add in the trash like
this like it's supposed to be some sort of like
divine intervention, like she's meant to be this guy's like
sub slave. Because also she does eventually throw them out,
but only after, like James Spader says, it's okay, And

(26:15):
it's like, why couldn't that moment have come earlier for her?
Why couldn't she It's like, couldn't she have just thrown
it out then and then been like, oh, an ad
to be a secretary? Okay? Yeah, I felt that that
whole I mean once it gets to like that James
Spader scene, which I like, No, it's weird because it's like,
I know that that scene is kind of like iconic
in its own right, but it's like he's just like,

(26:37):
don't do that ever again, and she's like, oh, that's
why I didn't not do it. I just need to stop.
I was doing it again, and then I was like
I never thought don't don't do do it the hospital
and my family were like, maybe do it. Like it's
like it's just so my mom was like locking the

(27:00):
knives away, like but you know, if you want to,
just come get me and I'll and I'll get it
out for you. Like I feel so I felt. I
felt for Lee's mom. I felt like the movie really
was not very nice to her at every turn, and
like if I mean, the first time you see her,
she is being abused by her husband, and then really

(27:22):
every other time she crops up like she's made to
look kind of dumb and overbearing and like you never
really get any closure with her or the family. And
it's it's kind of interesting because the first half of
the film to me, felt so kind of surreal and comedic,
like all the stuff with the sister's wedding. It feels

(27:43):
like a joke, all the stuff, honestly, with like her
dad being an alcoholic, it feels like this caricature of
an alcoholic where he's like stumbling around downtown, wandering into
phone booths, and it's just like, Okay, is is this
supposed to be like kind of a funny any like
over the top? Yeah, like like play like we're making

(28:05):
fun of suburbia and like the drunk alcoholic parents who
like you know, and is is are we supposed to be? Like, Oh,
they're in on it. This is kind of like a
pro prozac nation moment. But then it makes you feel
bad for the mom because you're like, oh, no, she's
dealing with this abuse and wait, can we take these
characters seriously? But then they're like no, no, this is

(28:25):
James Spader is way more interesting. Like what we're we're
all here for Spader, We're not here for these for
this family. Very confused by this movie tonally, like I
don't really it's a comedy dress It's like it's marketed
as a comedy and I don't I'm not seeing that
much humor in it, or maybe it's just so subtle

(28:46):
that I'm not picking up on it. I don't And
then at the and then at the end, it's like
few like you're just like what is happening? Once once
the like the wedding dresses on, You're like, this movie
has switched right. It's like an S and M Julia
Roberts moment. You have, Like the press, apparently with nothing

(29:09):
else to report, is just like outside of his office
for days, like reporting on this woman who you would think,
like like a doctor would just come in. I don't
know why. The press was like, no, we need to
publish her and saying love letter right now like running liked.
And also that's the thing. Did he tip them off?

(29:30):
Because he did tip by he tips off the boyfriend.
Was he like, let's let's get Peter in here, Let's
get the family, let's get impressed in here, Like I
I honestly think he's just standing at his creepy masturbation window,
and I think he was just like, I'm just gonna
see where this goes. I'm just gonna sleep on the
floor till this all blows down, Like I guess is

(29:52):
how he like punishes himself, like oh no, the most
privileged punishment of all time. He's like, I'm gonna sleep
on the floor of my lawyer man while he is
like sitting in her piss for like five days in
a row because he doesn't want to use his words
and say, yeah, I like you too. Remember that's what
starts all of it, is that he cannot stay back

(30:13):
I like you too. Yeah. She's like a herd out
and then he's just like, stay there until I come back,
until I And then he just stands outside the window
and he's like, I like you do, missus all the way.
I have done what Maggie Gillenhall does in that like
extended scene emotionally a lot. I've sat in my piss

(30:35):
emotionally waiting for someone to say they like me back
for many times. Physically it would be a first. I
also think she would have pooped herself to if she's
there for like three days. It was also her wedding
day when he picks her up. We're getting so hard
of ourselves. But when he picks her up and like

(30:55):
sweeps her off her feet and carries her out of
the office like that wedding dress should be like brown
and yellow from all her why is he touching it.
It's like kind of a break in his character, this
guy who doesn't want to touch worms. He's all all
of a sudden, he's all over this like Pisch dressed right.
Maybe that's part of his king. I watched that with

(31:16):
my boyfriend and we were just like openly laughing. Once
it hit the end row, it was like, oh, that's
so and then we're just like, she's rewarded with a bath,
and then she's locked in a room and she's like
and that's when I felt so beautiful, And you're like, also,
is that that like weird grass table, which to me

(31:36):
seems like a place where you kill animals. I don't
know why someone would just have this like fake grassbed,
uh thing? Why does he have that? And then she's
like laying there and she's like, she's like, no, this
is the first time I ever felt whole. And I
was like, oh, I didn't know you didn't feel whole.
This is the first time. I'm like hearing this was

(31:56):
an issue for you throughout the film. Gosh, it's good.
Would have been nice to know how you were feeling
about anything. Unfortunately, we never learned that much about her character. Oops. No, Maggie. Okay,
So she sees the ad in the paper for the
lawyer's secretary job. She goes in to apply to the office,

(32:21):
and then we meet the lawyer, Mr. E Edward Gray,
that's James Spader's character. He interviews her on the spot.
It's a very inappropriate and weird interview. We can talk
about that. He immediately it is just like, let me
just make sure this girl does not know boundaries. He's
just straight off the bat, like, let me just make

(32:43):
sure I can manipulate this girl who does not know
what is appropriate or is inappropriate, right, yes, And he
gives her the job, so she starts working for him.
He's mostly a bastard and he makes her do inappropriate
things like go through the dumpster, he throws away donuts
that she gave him as a gift. He leers at

(33:04):
her body inappropriately. I was having some real like fraud
complex moments, uh during me like her early times in
that job, where it's like it is so clear to
the viewer that he is not hiring her because she's
going to be good at the job. He's kind of
hiring her because she's going to be bad at the job.
And then when she's bad at the job, which he

(33:26):
knew she would be. He like punishes her relentlessly, which
feels like every early job I ever had exactly. It
reminded me of just every abusive boss who's just like
this has too much sugar, not enough sugar, Like, oh
my gosh, I don't like the way that you type this.
Oh actually I wanted like this much space on the left,
and you're just like, oh, you're just a jerk. But

(33:47):
she's supposed to be She's supposed to be this naive child,
and that's why she falls for it. Like any I
think any adult woman would have been like, no, you
can't ask me if I'm pregnant, would have just stormed
out of there. But she's like, oh my gosh, yeah,
I guess, like this is cool and just you know,

(34:07):
and I think he knows that. And that's why the
entire dynamic just feels like it's set up so gross,
because she doesn't even come into the job with any
sort of like equal footing totally, which is the main
reason I have a real problem with this movie is
that we are meant to be rooting for this relationship
in which a man is exploiting this imbalance of power

(34:32):
that he has in this relationship with this woman. So
what follows that is one day at work, her dad
calls her and he had left Lee and her mother.
He seems to be hitting rock bottom and this upsets
Lee and she self harms again at the office and
Mr Gracie's her doing this because she does it in

(34:55):
the middle of the waiting room, by the way, just
like at her desk, in the middle of the waiting room,
where anyone could have walked into the office, right. Just yeah,
there was a few. I mean, I don't know, as
like a former self harmer myself. It's like we go
to the bathroom. Yeah, it's like it was, And that
was one of the tonal moments where it was weird

(35:16):
because we also see like the weird moments where he's
like popping around the corner and just like peeking at her.
It's like weird. But then there's this moment where she's like,
I have to self harm, and obviously she would go
to the bathroom like we saw her like do this
privately before, but we know he's going to be peeking,
and they set it up just to make it so obvious,

(35:39):
and it's like like it just felt kind of comical.
The way that he just immediately is just like and
then she sees and it's like, oh my gosh, I
didn't even consider that he could have been standing there.
And she seems so shocked, and it's like, yeah, girlier
in the middle of your office, like they make her
so baby. Yeah. Yeah, it's just frustrating. So after he

(36:00):
sees this um, he starts to really lay into her um,
yelling at her for typing errors, telling her that the
way she dresses is disgusting, like she's sniffling, she's fiddling
with her hair, she does this weird thing with her tongue,
and she seems to make an active attempt to fix
these things. And then he asks her about a recent

(36:21):
date that we saw her on with this guy Peter,
who she knew from high school, which is a date
that takes place out a laundromat where they're drinking wine.
I don't know if this is a thing or not,
but that's what I know. I thought that was cool.
And I mean, I don't know if this is just
a Midwest thing, but in the Midwest, all my white
friends loved going on dates to the laundromat, So I
just I was like, yeah, I was like, I guess

(36:43):
this is a thing I never heard. There are lots
of white people where they also have like bars too,
but I was like, I would be into this, And
also like, it's just creepy that he also uses that
laundromat because he's supposed to be this like big time lawyer,
and I'm like, you don't have like a really fancy
dry cleaner. Are also using like the dating laundromat, and

(37:04):
at least in a home he'd haven't. Wouldn't he have
like an in home or like pick up or something.
But no, he's also just like go into this town
laundromat and dinner night place, and then he sees them
and gets like super creepy. He's like peeking behind the
washers again. So if you don't find James Spader attractive

(37:28):
in this movie, which I don't, really, those shots are
so alarming. They're just like, yeah, I don't know where
what are you doing? I don't know how the Steve
the Bouschemy test applies here exactly, but it's like, to me,
I feel like he's sort of for some he's for

(37:52):
me for sure, on account of how much I hate
James Spader. But um, so anyway, he's like, hey, that
date that you wrong? What was that all about? Did
you have sex? You know you can? You can tell
me about your problems. Also, don't ever hurt yourself again.
Don't cut yourself again. And she says, okay, yes, I won't. Um,

(38:12):
and then she makes another typing error and he calls
her into his office instructs her to bend over on
his desk and read the letter. And while she does this,
he slaps her, but repeatedly, And we'll talk all about this,
but this is the This kind of initiates the beginning
of a dom sub relationship between them. Um. He starts

(38:36):
to tell her what to eat. He has her crawl
around the office on all fours. We see him strapping
a saddle to her. Yeah, can we do that? Where
where did that come from? Is that why he has
the fake grass bed? I needed more answers there. Oh sure,
I was like, Okay, this is kind of awesome, but also, like,

(38:57):
where does he keep that? It's a really small office.
It's a huge it's for like not a pony. He also,
I believe there was also Hey, like this was a
very it was a platform with Hey. Yeah, there was
hey and carrots. This was like not just your you know,
I have this saddle hanging around. This was like a

(39:17):
well thought out like a photo shoot almost. He's very
inconsistent with like sometimes he's like, oh, I just I
just want it right now, but then other times it's like, no,
this would have taken a lot of planning. You would
have had to decide this a couple of days ago
in advance. Yeah, And so for him to be so
wishy washy had points when it's like, no, the the
amount of probably just preparation involved in this relationship so far,

(39:41):
Like I'm sorry for you to now say that you
never had feelings for this girl, Like, I'm sorry, but
you're in a relationship. It made a bet of hay
for if you're making a bet of hey, you're in
a relationship, Okay, go ahead and put a term on it,
because that's your girlfriend. That's a commitment. That's a commitment.
After this, though, something kind of changes and he loses

(40:05):
He seems to lose interest and he stops engaging in
their B DSM relationship, much to her disappointment. Meanwhile, she
has been dating Peter. She wants him to spank her.
He doesn't get it. They have boring sex. She's very
dissatisfied for Peter. He does that thing with this hand.
Peter he has this claw hand that he does and

(40:28):
he has sex to there where he doesn't touch her.
He just like the like hovering or he's just like
and then he just she like she like turns around
like and does the like spank me move and he's
just like get a cond Like he's just like he's
just a character you feel so bad for. And she

(40:49):
does like briefly date some like other people in a montage,
which I feel like the movie would have been better
if we'd actually seen her go on these like bad
s and M dates and like scene that X varience,
but like very quickly they're just like, yeah, she tried
like throwing tomatoes at somebody and she did this in
any way that didn't work, So she must be in
love with James Bader, so let's move on, right. It's

(41:10):
like they look like the lamest like s and M
days you could go on, like, I think she just
probably picked the wrong people off of Craigslist. In two thousands,
the newspaper, I guess if you're putting your snm ads
in the newspaper. You're gonna get some some misses, right.

(41:30):
So then at work, Lee puts a worm in a
letter to Mr Gray to try to reinitiate their b
DSM relationship, and it works sort of in that there's
like another encounter. But Mr Gray feels guilty about his
behavior and he thinks there's something wrong with him and

(41:52):
he wants to severtise with Lee, so he fires her
and she is devastated. That's when she tries these other
dom sub relationships with other men. None of them work out.
She gets engaged to Peter because she doesn't know what
else to do, but on their wedding day, she runs
away Allah Julia Roberts in Runaway Bride to Mr Gray

(42:16):
and she's like, I love you, I want to be
with you, I want to make love and he's like,
put your hands on the desk, plant both feet on
the floor, and don't move until I come back. She
takes that note very serious. She does not move. She
doesn't move. He does different things to test her. I guess,
like we said what He tells Peter where she is?

(42:39):
She urinates in the wedding dress. He sends like everyone
he sends the entire castle a movie. Basically everyone we've
seen up until this point like comes in to have
like a little monologue with her where they all talk
about him. It's never like, hey, Lee, are you like hungry?
No one brings her a snack. Her mom brings her

(43:00):
four pas, but that brings her some peas, but most
of them are just like, he is brilliant, isn't he?
Oh my gosh, the worm trick was so smart? And
it's just like, is anyone like a therapist kind of
talks to her? And then the only person who really
gets through to her is her dad, who's like reading
the Bible right. I was honestly kind of confused. I

(43:24):
was like, is she hallucinating these because she's so hungry
and tired? But then it's like, no, these people are
really here. I think where I got confused, And like,
how did Mr Gray get his ex wife to participate
in this like she and compliment to him? And and

(43:44):
did he call his ex wife before he called the
press or did he call the press first? Which I
guess that least I guess their divorce has since has
been settled off screen, So you seem very upset in
the beginning, and now she's gone full circle to yes,
he's a genius, and somehow he slipped through my hands.
She's like, yeah, I was just showing too much agency, personality, etcetera.

(44:08):
I was just you know, an actual person a few
times and that didn't click for him. But you were
just a perfect, just blank tablet of a human for
him to imprint on. So those so those people were
actually there. She gets like five copies of codependency no more,

(44:30):
she reads none of them. And then and then he
finally comes back after I believe three days of her
not sleeping, not eating or drinking water, presumably pissing, and
shooting herself, and then he comes back. He sweeps her
off her feet, he takes her home, he gives her
a bath, um and then they become a couple. They

(44:52):
get married, They on a tree, goes off to work,
they fuck on a tree. He you know, he keeps
being a lawyer. She we're not sure what she does
with I guess she's not a secretary anymore because she's
not going to the office, right, did she just stay
at home? We don't really know. Actually, by the end
of the movie, the one thing we know about her

(45:13):
that she is a secretary. We don't even know that anymore, right,
We actually and the movie knowing less about her than
we started with. True, we don't even know her job.
She like like this is yeah, this is pretty disempowering
in a way, equally angless as when she began. But well, yeah,

(45:36):
like this was supposed to be a very happy ending. Yeah,
well that's the movie. Let's take a quick break and
then we'll come right back for more discussion. And we're back.
Um okay, so I really quickly, I think I wanted

(45:57):
to start with talking about the material for the book. Um, Caitlin,
you read the story. Yes, I did, bravely. I did
as well. I don't make a habit of reading. But
it was only liked read this. So I once I

(46:18):
saw that it was very short, I was like, alright,
I'll do I can manage this. So this movie is
adapted from a short story that is, I mean, the
framework is similar, but it plays out really really differently.
It's by Mary gate Skill, who I think I had
read stuff of hers before, maybe in high school or college.

(46:39):
She's like a famous mostly short story writer. Um. And
this was from a collection she wrote back in nineteen
idiot called bad behavior, and it is different. It is
so the I think most notable ways in which the

(47:00):
source material is different from the film is that there's
no mention of any of her self harm behavior in
the story. There's only a brief mention that her mom
had taken her to a psychiatrist one time. But aside
from that, the self harm aspect of her character seems
to be specific to the movie. In the scene in

(47:23):
which which the movie would have you believe is the
beginning of their dom sub relationship, we will talk about
how how it's just an assault with no prior understanding
on her part of what was going to happen, no
consent given on her part. Right during that scene in

(47:46):
the short story, the character whose name is not Lee,
I think her name is Debbie in the short story. Um.
But anyway, that character, that character is crying the whole time,
and she just seems much more traumatized by the events
of that in the short story. Uh. The story ends
with the lead character deciding not to show up to

(48:09):
work anymore, and she's the one who effectively ends their relationship.
They don't get together. At the end. He runs for
mayor of their town and she judges. She's like, this
town is so shitty. What kind of idiot would run
for mayor of such a shitty town? And then that's
pretty much how the story ends. That's very different. It's

(48:31):
so different. I thought it was like a good story.
I I felt like it was. I mean it was
it's very like like late eighties. But it felt like, oh,
this was like kind of this like slice of this
young woman's life. She had like a traumatic work experience,
and there wasn't really any like infrastructure for her to
like process or report it, so she just took herself

(48:52):
out of the situation and then looked back on it
thinking that he sucked and was a loser, which which
is like a relatable experience. I didn't dislike the story. Yeah,
I don't know Mary gets call. I mean, I guess
that there's not too much worth discussing about her here
because the movie has kind of very little to do

(49:14):
with what she read. I feel like the story sounds
so much better, like the whole aspect of the self
harm and the mental illness. Just the way it's used here,
it's only used to take away her agency, it's only
used to make her seem so childish, uh, And it's
it's kind of used to make it like, oh, this

(49:35):
is the reason that she is this way. They use
it as an excuse, like, oh, the only reason that
she would be into like subdom stuff is because she's
the kind of person whose self harms, which obviously is
a really like dangerous stereotype for the b D s
M community. But also it's just like, like, no, she
could just like I love this type of stuff and
want to be in this relationship, but instead you want

(49:57):
to tie it to her mental illness, and that makes
me go a looks that he's taking advantage of that, Like, like,
you guys should have just listened to Mary here, because
obviously she accounted for that way back in come on, yeah,
in the way her mental health issues are depicted. And
this isn't to say the people who have or have

(50:18):
had self harm tendencies can't get into b D s
M and use that as a coping strategy in a
healthy way. I read some anecdotes from people who took
that approach and it seemed to work out great for them,
So I don't have a problem with the movie showing
that as a general thing. What I do find troublesome

(50:41):
is this character Mr Gray, who is an abuser, seems
to somehow curely of her mental illness by simply telling
her not to have a mental illness anymore. I was
I was bummed from Mary, and I like, on reading this,
I was like kind of even more confused with some

(51:03):
of the choices that the movie made because I assumed
I was like, oh, well, okay, I knew going in
at the ending was very different in the movie than
it is in the book. But I'm like, maybe they
just chose, you know, a bad in for a happy ending.
Like if she I would almost be a little more like, oh,
this was done with good intent. Uh if it was like, oh,

(51:26):
it just didn't adapt well and then the studio made
us change the ending and so it comes off not
very well. But that's not even the case. And I
have a quote from Mary gate Skill who is like,
she's really interesting. She's got you can look up her
takes on me too. They're all over the place because
she's she's all about the gray area of sexual interactions,

(51:51):
which doesn't translate well to that conversation. Uh, even if
it turns out, you know, often well in her work,
But Anyways, she was asked about this movie because it's
so different, and she was like, pretty I don't know,
very chill about it. She said that the film was
quote the Pretty Woman version, very heavy on the charm
and a little too nice. But the bottom line is

(52:12):
that if if a film adaptation is made, you get
some money and exposure and people can make up their
minds from there. So she very much like it's kind
of like I gotta check check, and then distanced herself
from yeah, I like that. She says the movie is
charming because like, where where is that charm? I didn't

(52:35):
Her takes are all over the places like this is
Pretty Woman? Like where like where where is Lee coming
back to be like I own this? There's never that
moment she comes back and she's like yeah, she comes
and she's like I love you and I'm going to
sit here and do this. But it's only after she

(52:55):
bears her soul to the press and they like put
out her statement about how she's the only person who
understands him and he's so complicated that he like reads
it and it's like you know what, Okay, fine, I'll
go back in there and get her Like I was
gonna just like see how long she do this and
have fun with it. But now I guess I'll take
it seriously Like that that was It's not like Mr

(53:17):
Gray has like such a trust of the local press.
He trusted more than women. He's allegedly in love with Um.
So Mary Gaskill writes the story, it eventually gets um
picked up by this direct or, Stephen Shaneberg, I was

(53:39):
not aware of. I had never heard of him, and
I looked up his other stuff and I had not
heard of any of it. I don't know who this
man is. For some reason, I thought it was Steven
Soderberg who directed this, and then I was and then
I was like, oh wait, no, I read that wrong.
That doesn't say Soderberg. That said something else. It's like
it's like one of the You're like Steve Stephenburg, like

(54:00):
Steve Soderberg, like he had a he had another. I
think he only made one other movie after Secretary, and
it also had like pretty mixed reviews. But like some
big names attached to it, it seems like he just
he just kind of makes these like boring middle of
the lane like white like artsy movies with with couples
that fight. Yeah, it's like I couldn't quite figure out

(54:24):
what his deal was other than I believe he Oh no,
he wasn't nepotism. I really can't make heads or tails
of his life in that case. But the the I
think the screenwriter of this movie is pretty interesting and
she has like a lot of pretty well known work.
She was like originally a playwright named Aaron Crisita Wilson.

(54:47):
Other stuff she's written include the I think The Girl
on the Train is probably her most famous other adaptation.
And then there was a movie named Chloe that I
definitely saw. It is not It's not good. It's Julianne
Morriley of Neeson and Amanda sy Free. I totally forgot
about that movie. I like cut it out of my memory.

(55:10):
It's a mess. She is interesting to me because I
feel like I haven't rewatched Chloe in a long time.
But I feel like this particular writer is drawn to
a very particular type of female protagonist that we've talked
about before. But it's or we we're talking about earlier,
but it's like she is drawn to like upwardly mobile

(55:33):
white lady with mental illness, but then kind of uses
that framing device to just punish the character relentlessly throughout
the work. And I'm sure I'm oversimplifying the girl on
the train a little bit um. But I did not
like that movie. Uh wasn't a fan, and it's it's
like brutal. She's interesting, and so I was looking up.

(55:58):
This was her first screenplay and she's written I guess
like twenty plays. I'm not. I don't know. It's like
good for her, all power to her, but she didn't
interview when she first wrote this movie where they were
basically asking her like, oh, have you ever been as
secretary or have you ever been um in a B
D S M situation? And her answer is so weird,

(56:21):
it's okay, So here it is. She says, I have
had many instances of sexual harassment and jobs I've had
in the past, but I was young and didn't know
what I was being sexually harassed in these instances. I
had absolutely no sexual attraction to the harassers, so it
was confusing to me. I thought I had been hired
because these men liked my work, not my ass. You see,
I went to girls schools for much of my education,

(56:42):
so I came from a very sheltered and also wonderful
environment where I was seen for my personality, my intelligence,
and my talent. When it came to work, I was
not accustomed to being seen as a sexual object. It
took me years after college to finally understand that I
was being harassed. I never thought of myself as particularly hot,
so I was always ACKed when I realized that was
going on. I've worked with men I was attracted to,

(57:03):
and this can be very invigorating and exciting, especially if
it is never consummated. But that is a consensual and
more adult situation. This film situation borders on sexual harassment definitely,
but I think it ceases to be harassment when the
submissive starts to like it and actually ask for it.
So it's like, I'm like really with her at the
beginning of this, and that took some turns, and then

(57:27):
at the end you're just like, wait, why didn't know?
Why didn't attractive people can sexually harass in the workplace?
That's oh, there were so many I was like, I'm
with you, I'm with you, and then I was just
like no. And also, there is like a moment in
the movie where they like kind of joke about sexual harassment.

(57:48):
Her sisters when they're by the pool, Like one of
them is like, oh, I'm you should like sue your
boss for sexual harassment, and then like Lee is just like,
at least my boss is sexy. He's the best in
the world. Okay, So that I feel like that is there.
I feel like that's the movie attempting to show the
distinction between like actual abuse and b D s M,

(58:11):
the movie saying these are two different things. I feel
like this is also why we see Lee's father being
physically abusive to the mother. That's saying like, that's what abuses.
What we're seeing in this relationship between Lee and Mr Gray,
this is different. This is a consensual b D s
M relationship. However, this is my whole thing with this movie,

(58:34):
and we already hinted at it, But like, the relationship
between the two characters starts as him being verbally and
emotionally abusive towards her in the workplace. This is followed
by the scene in which he has her bend over
the desk and repeatedly spank her. Um, she did not
know this was going to happen. She did not give

(58:55):
consent to this. In addition, there's also a major you're
in balance of power in that he is her boss
and she is his subordinate. There's also seemingly no one
else there. Yeah. Also, let's I don't think we mentioned
that the very first time she goes in for the interview,
there's a woman, his old secretary who's leaving and crying.

(59:17):
They also like cut to that clip at the end,
which is a little like, yeah, yeah, we get it,
we get she got fired and she's also crying. We
know the reference, we get it. But it's like they
clearly established like he is an abusive boss, Like even
outside of b D s M, he's not a good boss. Right,
Like the thing with this movie, and Jamie you had

(59:39):
mentioned this at the top of the episode, but like
this movie is widely considered within the b D s
M community to be more like accurate and responsible in
its depiction of b D s M relationships, more so
than like fifty Shades of Gray at least five years ago. Right,
Because the thing with fifty Shades of Gray is that
it and we talked about this on that episode, but

(01:00:01):
it conflates very concerning behavior like a man stalking a
woman as like being part of the kink aspect of
their relationship, and it's just like, no, this is romantic.
What he's doing, him stalking her is actually very romantic.
And it's also just like poorly written, so no one
likes it. But with Secretary, I'm just like what, but

(01:00:23):
there's an assault. He assaults her because, like the whole
thing with B. D. S M, if done right and
portrayed accurately, it's all about consent, it's all about negotiation,
it's all about knowing each other's boundaries and limits. It's
all about safety, and none of that gets established in
this movie. They don't talk about the relationship he there's

(01:00:45):
no safe words established. In fact, he never uses the terms.
We don't actually even know if he is well versed
in like B D. S M. Like the woman in
the beginning comes in and she looks at Lee and
says sub which is like okay, so she knows about it.
And then we see like Lee, you know, she's at
the diner like listening to a book on tape or

(01:01:05):
whatever about subdom relationships. But all we ever hear from
him is that he's like ashamed of this inherent nature
that he has, Like is this just is he an
inherently bad guy who likes to harm people, whether they're
just his secretary or they're his partner, because he's he's
engaging in it without any consent or without at least conversation.

(01:01:28):
There's never a moment where he's like, hey, I'm into
this lifestyle or hey, you know, he just is full
of shame about it. So it's very much like I
don't even know if we can consider him someone who
is into b D s M because they never even
say that about his character, Like we don't even know
that he that he like uses those ideas of consent

(01:01:48):
that are in the b D s M community, because
he just seems like a creep who would probably be
a jerk to anyone who worked in his office. Right,
It's I felt like there there was a moment when
like he experiences the shame about like the kind of
sex he likes to have, where you're like, oh, like
maybe the movie is going to make a like an

(01:02:10):
interesting point about that, because that's something that happens, and
like you know it. There are cases of people who
are so ashamed of what they want and sex that
they won't educate themselves because they don't want to acknowledge
that part of themselves. But that but it but that
you know, that does not happen. It just kind of drops.
He doesn't learn a thing. Yeah he could. I mean,
if he has money for a horse saddle. I have

(01:02:32):
to imagine he could pick up a book on B
D s M or safe Words or just like a
book on tape on like you know, just being like, so,
can I spank you? I feel like library cards are free. Yeah,
I feel like he definitely has access to those resources.
So just they're afraid to ever like just jump into
the B D s M conversation and in the end,

(01:02:55):
that makes it so much more sinister and just so
much more confusing about what Lee is actually signing up for.
I'm curious, actually, maybe you will have some insight into
this of because it's and I've read like a number
of like pieces that are sort of like, oh, I
recognize that uh Secretary has equal, if not worse issues

(01:03:17):
and fifty shades of great. I just like it more
and I'm like more attached to it. And my guess
is because it was the only even semi mainstream movie
that dealt with this at the time. Okay, I think
that's it it's like, I mean, even watching it now,
I was a little like, wow, this came out so
long ago, like twenty years now, and I mean at

(01:03:38):
the time, it was like so shocking that poster is
so shocking. You're like, wow, I've never seen a film
just kind of talk about even just self harm. I
think for me that was such a shocking thing, like
mental health and that just being something that like a
woman can have those issues and you can talk about
it in a movie. Uh. You know. I feel like
this was that time period of like really like quirky, cute,

(01:04:02):
manic pixie dream girls who were all like you know,
plan ukuleles, and then there was this like dark girl
who was like hurting herself and dealing with mental health
issues and like issues of self esteem. And obviously that
resonated for someone like me who listened to Torrey Amos.
So I was like in a prime position to love

(01:04:23):
this movie. And you know, I still think it it
does deserve some credit for doing a lot before anyone
else did it, but I mean it also still does
so much wrong. Like it, you know, and I think
we can say like, yeah, it's great, and I I
can you know, proudly proudly say, like, yeah, I tried

(01:04:46):
to spank myself with a hairbrush because I saw it
in this movie, and you know, I'm into that, Like, okay,
think I I owe that to secretary. But at the
same time, James Spader is creepy and this movie could
be better written. Sure, two things can be true. Yeah, yeah,
I like I think that it is like definitely good

(01:05:08):
that people are able to like discover stuff or feel
even somewhat seen in a movie like this. I just
was really I don't know because and I also think
that the other thing is that it's like it is
just a better crafted movie the fifty Shades of Great.
No one wants to watch fifty Great Shades of Gray
because it's like a shitty movie, even though it is

(01:05:31):
you know, we've talked about it in another episode, and
there's just not the bandwidth the handle it now. But
there are at least some basic B D s M
dynamics introduced in fifty Shades of Gray. Whether they are
actually abided by by the couple, uh doesn't always happen.
But you are introduced to the just consent and uh,

(01:05:53):
you know, what's her name whatever, and so embarrassing and
as Stasia get an opportunity, and I guess opportunities like
an overstatement, but like she gets to say, here are
my boundaries, here's what I won't do, and they do
that little negotiation and they have some aftercare with each
other and they cuddle after stuff, and it's just like

(01:06:13):
it's very like one oh one, but at least it's
it's there with yeah, because with Lee there is nothing.
I mean, she doesn't even read, she doesn't listen to
that book on tape until after he has ended their relationship.
She she doesn't go out with other people who are
into this lifestyle until after the relationship. So she gets

(01:06:34):
into it not even knowing what it is. Apparently like
she's doing these things, she's like happy to crawl on
the floor and all this stuff, but she actually has
no idea what she's engaging with until later, and she's
just being like physically and emotionally abused by this guy.
Because it seems like for Mr Gray that it is

(01:06:57):
just as much of a twenty four seven emotional consumption
as it's like they're just are no lines. She's given
no information and because we're introduced to her as kind
of this childlike character. You kind of assume, well, she
is not going to be given the agency to figure
out she doesn't really have anyone else to talk to

(01:07:18):
in her life because her family is framed as being
so I think they're like a joke. Yeah, the family,
her sister is a character. I don't know why the
sister is not like a friend or someone she can
relate to. I don't know why she doesn't have friends
or just any sort of female character where she can
be like, I have these feelings about this situation or

(01:07:40):
this boy that never happens. We only relate her mom. Yeah,
all we really know is that Mr Gray is better
than this other guy who is boring. So that is
why Mr Gray is good, which poor poor Peter. Peter
is nice. He cares about you spec her. Maybe he's

(01:08:01):
he's really bad at sex, but at least he treats
her well. He could learn, and maybe you know, he
just wants to get married and have kids. You know,
you can teach someone to spank, you can, It's really
easy to do. Yeah, I feel like he would have
been game if she'd been like, hey, so I realized
I'm into b D s M and I want to
explore this and if she had used the language with him, okay,

(01:08:24):
but instead he was just like tape. I feel like
he would have been like, I'm game to try this
and figure it out for you. He seems so in
love with her, and then instead he's just like I
didn't actually like how they have him confront her in
that situation, because they tried to kind of paint him
as the abuser, like he's the only person who manages

(01:08:46):
to push her out of that chair and he's like,
I don't care if you want to stay here, I'm
going to push you and like physically violate you. And
that's like a clear moment when they have a man
like to fire her physical agency and she yells like
no and like runs to the chair, and I'm just like, wait, no,
that's so out of character for him. Yeah, Like like
first of all, like that's out of character. He's never

(01:09:07):
been this aggressive person, Like why would he all of
a sudden just like grab her and do this. But
also he's the good guy, Like come on, Like, how
are you going to paint him as the one who's
like actually now abusive and going against her wishes when
all he has done has just been like I will
only touch you with my pinky and you can keep
all your clothes on and whatever you would like, we

(01:09:28):
do this the way that you want to do it,
like come on. There was also like I felt like
a kind of subtle like dumping on Peter class wise
as well, Like I think that they were first of
all being like Peter isn't something enough for her, and
I think that, like, you know, sexually masculine is a
part of that. And then they're also like subtly dumping

(01:09:49):
on him for working at j C. Penny all the time.
They like anytime he comes up there, like and he
proposed to me in the basement of like they're just
which is a good line, but that was a good moment.
I love that scene when they're just sitting there and
she's like, yeah, I guess I'll marry you. Okay, okay.
But they're also kind of being like, oh, this guy

(01:10:10):
is like he doesn't funk hard enough and he's poor,
Like he's the nicest person in the movie. He just
is so sweet and nice. He gives a rides when
they like when she's like, oh, this wedding sucks, he's
there to be like hey, yeah, do you need anything,
Like he just is so sweet and the movie is like, yeah,

(01:10:30):
but no, Mr Gray is the is this just really
complex guy? And she gets him, and I just I
still don't know what we're supposed to like about the
guy truly, and contrasting that with like, I mean, like
I said this a little earlier too, but like how
her turning point as like a character is when he

(01:10:51):
just suggests that she should no longer self harm. So
it's also like, oh, if you have a crush, that
will cure your mental illness. Like there's just all sorts
of bizarre messages being bandied about. He has a polaroid camera,
she has. She has no more problems, okay, the polar

(01:11:12):
and camera thing. I watched this movie with a person
that I am dating, which was interesting because I forced
them to watch it, and the whole time I was
just like, keep in mind, this is like the most
informative movie to my sexual awakening in my life, so
just keep that in mind the whole time. And we
like got into a fight over the polaroid scene because
I swore there were pictures of multiple girls in that

(01:11:35):
book and he had polaroids of like his ex and
like other secretary he does, and then he burns it.
Yeah right, And I was like, this shows us this
is a history of abuse, is a pattern, Like this
has nothing to do with Lee, this is just this
guy doing this. But my partner was like, no, those
were all photos of Lee, so just on the record,
let's all tell the definitely different people. And then yeah,

(01:11:59):
that also is more of and again just like demonizing.
I mean everyone is kind of demonized in this movie,
but like it demonizes the b d s M community
by being like, yeah, they keep things like serial killers,
like he's has this like serial killer scrapple, like women,
he's upset, like it's just he keeps their their photos

(01:12:22):
and his beautiful orchid garden, and like like b DSM
people are just inherent monsters who can't control themselves except
through push ups and treadmills. He is so sweaty in
that treadmill scene. Oh my gosh. Like they voluntarily flashback
to that shot a second time. I was like, I
didn't want to see that again. Also, they also they

(01:12:46):
have her flashback to it, but it's not the part
when she was there, and I was like, how did
how did she know? He was running that hard? Then
how did she see it? That is such a heartbreaking
scene too, and that like when she her so her
father is sick, she's really upset about it. She's like
not able to communicate with her mother and her siblings,

(01:13:09):
and so she goes to him for like emotional support.
She kind of has no reason, being as romantically naive
as she is and also as like manipulous, like she
has no reason to believe that he won't you be
nice to her? But then he makes it clear right away,
like I don't you know that? Like I don't do emotions,
and it's the hot and the cold. It's that classic

(01:13:31):
just like you know. He he made her feel so special,
made her feel so like, oh, I'm going to fix you,
and I see everything that's wrong with you. And then
the second she's like, oh, I actually need your emotional support,
he's like, I'll read the files in the morning, get
out of here, right, And then he just sits on
his bed and like looks out a window, like how

(01:13:52):
dare she expect me to show the emotions that I
promised her i'd show, right, especially when he's like, you
can talk to me about out your problems. Yeah, he
like that's the whole opening of their relationships and being like, yeah,
we can be intimate and you can talk to me.
And then when she's actually like my dad, which I
don't I like that they never in the end like

(01:14:12):
give us closure on the family thing in terms of
the dad's like sickness. Like, for all we know, she's
like fucking on this tree and her dad is just
dead in a ditch somewhere. We have no idea like
he yeah, we don't find out if her mom ever
like gets out of that relationship. And also and then
it kind of like I just think that that like
shot of abuse at the beginning ends up being so

(01:14:33):
gratuitous because it is never revisited other than like her
like possibly I could see being like, oh, I don't
you know, like you were saying, Caitlin, like this is abuse.
This is an abuse. But then don't bring the dad
back at the end when she's pissing herself as like
a good like the best guy. Yeah, the one who
like understands her like this dad who's abusive is the

(01:14:56):
one who's like, I have the Bible Verse you need
and she's like thank you, daddy, which felt gross. That
felt like an illegal use of Daddy in that scene.
I think they should cut it from the film in
the future, strike it from the record. I also like
with with her mom, I can't help but feel because
her mom is painted as being very submissive. Also in

(01:15:20):
the fact that she seems to have nothing better to
do than wait outside of Lee's work for hours on end,
like we're just waiting for her to be done, to
pick her up, and I mean, we don't really know
anything about her except that again she's she just seems
to be depicted as this very submissive person, and I
feel like the movie is like wanting you to think

(01:15:42):
this is the way not to be submissive, because Lee
is doing it right. And I think there's like there's
like I can see a read of this movie and
all of the defenses of this movie that I've read
of because people love to write about how Secretary is
better than Fifty Shades of Gray. So I was reading
several of those pieces, and a lot of them were

(01:16:05):
making the argument that Lee she's given agency. She eventually
starts consenting and initiating some of these dom sub interactions
with Mr. Gray. People have written about how she as
she's becoming more submissive to him. She's actually becoming more

(01:16:26):
dominant in her own life and that she's empowered, and
I can see parts of that. I think her mother
character is like written the way she is so that
there's like this stark contrast of like here's the bad
way to be submissive and here's the good way to
be submissive. I don't really don't like that. I feel

(01:16:47):
about that necessarily, but I don't like it. That does
make sense to me that I mean, especially I guess that,
like I mean, every movie you have to take the
time it came out as context by like maybe especially
with the movie like this, where this was the option
for a semi mainstream BDSM movie. And then also there

(01:17:09):
are just so few movies about women being remotely sexually empowered,
even if if you look at the text carefully, like
are they really? But I feel like this movie was
very much framed and you were supposed to think that
she was very sexually empowered, and sometimes that is enough
if there's not you know, other options. So I mean

(01:17:31):
the fact that you see female masturbation, you see female orgasm,
female pleasure. I feel like she only reaches orgasm when
she is masturbating and not in anything that she's doing
with Mr. Gray. No, No, that's true. I mean we
really only see them have sex, like when they are

(01:17:52):
on against the tree. That's the only time. The other
time is just like him for like going over every
scar one by one and because she's finally found someone
so smart that he can understand her scars. That is
such a I remember that, like not not as sexualized,
but like I remember a very similar scene on Degrassi

(01:18:13):
which was like, oh, like in two thousand two, I
was very on the Degrassy train and there was there
was a girl like a character who self harmed, and
then it was it was Ellie Stacy Farber currently on
Grayce and Frankie. We love her. She's great, a star,
she's great. She was the hot topic girl too, but

(01:18:34):
she there was like you know that. I feel like
it is like almost a trophy moment where it's like
when the person who's self harming finds someone who accepts them.
They touch your scars and you're like, wow, I finally
have found love and I am beautiful. And it's corny
but it's also potent in a way. Like in this movie.
It didn't really hit for me because I don't value

(01:18:55):
like their relationship is so dark and fucked up. But
in other situations I've been like, that's nice. It worked.
It worked for me in Degrassi anyways. Yeah, Degrassi definitely
pulled it off better than this movie did. They could
have taken some notes, I think, because I don't in
this scene. I mean, even when he first notices her scars,

(01:19:16):
because he notices them before he even tells her the
whole like stop doing that or catches her trying it.
She's like setting a rat trap and he's being mean
about it. And then like her her like dress comes
up and he sees it. So to me, it's like
already he is. It's not something where he's like, oh,
I want to understand this about her. It's like he's
going to use it against her. It's something that he's like, oh,

(01:19:38):
this is another way where I can control her and
change her and fix her, versus like, oh, I want
to understand what causes her to do this. I mean,
I don't think he ever asked. I don't think he
ever was like, so, what's what's the whole? You know
nothing about each other. In that scene where they're finally
like having a tender like kissing moment after he has

(01:19:59):
bathed her, She's like, who are you? Where did you
grow up? Where were you bored? What are your interests?
They don't know anything about each other. Gives the most
boring answer. He's like, Moine Iowa, I mean, shout out
to des Moines and our de Moin listeners, But who

(01:20:20):
knew that demo des Moines Iowa was like making the
most complicated men of all time, Like somewhere in a
corn field, they're just cranking out these just complex beings
who cannot be understood with our our simple female brains.
He has no story, like it's they know I feel
I feel for for Lee, So I am very curious

(01:20:43):
of like what does this relationship look like for Lee?
Down the line a little bit like when she genuinely
does come into her own a little more and like
mature's more like, I don't know. I don't see this
relationship maybe lasting forever. What have ends? When Lee wants kids, like,

(01:21:03):
he's like, I've got orchids. I'm I'm good. I don't
need children. I have orchids them my creepy album, like
and maybe a horse. He might have a horse, or
at least the parts to have one. Yeah, he's got
the accessory everything but the horse. Yeah. I mean, ultimately,

(01:21:25):
like with with this character, especially like it's very romantic,
and I feel like where this movie very suddenly pivots
into like romcomp territory at the end, like you're supposed
to believe I guess that she changed him, which is
just like never an idea that serves anybody is like, yeah,
he treated every other person he's ever been in a

(01:21:47):
relationship with like absolute garbage, deeply hurt them, ruin their
lives in some cases. But he was just waiting for
the girl that would for a whole week at his
desk on TV for the media, and that made him
fall in love with her. Like it's just so many
levels of it. You're just like come on, like who God?

(01:22:10):
And I know, because I was such an impressionable like
twelve year old, I would have been like, wow, so
so that's what we're gonna do. Okay, Like I can't
say that, I can't say that's not how I've dated
my entire life. I can't say that this movie didn't
have that impact where I just want someone who's going
to tell me what to eat for dinner and carry

(01:22:33):
me and feed me carrots. I think that's just like
what I want, and that is because of Secretary, But
I don't know, it's just I think it's a little
dangerous now when I look back, Like, yes, it was
like one of the first movies to do that. But
for that same reason, like I as like a young queer,
I put so much into it, Like I was so like, oh,

(01:22:54):
this is this is what you know my experience should
be like, and oh I need to find So it's
gonna be tough to find someone who gets me because
as a woman who's into this lifestyle, I'm just hard
to understand and I have to deal with someone who's
hard to understand, and that is something that takes so
long to unlearn. Like, no, you you don't have to
deal with men like this. You don't have to deal

(01:23:15):
with anyone like this. Actually, you can find people who
know about consent and use their words and speak at
a reasonable valume like life can be easy. It's audibly
like office. Oh god, he says so many like pivotal
lines of the movie so quietly. That makes a lot

(01:23:35):
of sense though, like and and again, if if this
is the only movie of its kind, like where else
do you really have to turn for media to like
it was like this and the L word. That's like
I think all we had which I had to read
with the deal word. Well, I like what I find.
I think there's some pretty problematic ship in that show.

(01:23:57):
That's why I rewatched it once a year. It not
aged well, it's it's just as problematic as Secretary in
terms of just I don't know. I guess it was
like the sex sexy period of time when everyone was
just like, oh, we're hot, sex positivity. You don't need
to say yes verbally because we just see it in
your eyes. And now we're at a point where like, no, no,

(01:24:19):
you could, you should use the words, you should actually
have the character because if if I mean if like
the and this kind of we've kind of been saying
this for the whole episode, but like if you switched
the dynamic even two percent so that it's not this
perfectly calibrated, like these two people meeting each other, meeting

(01:24:39):
each other at the exact right time, and this like
it would be like like a Hollywood Reporter article about
workplace abuse, like it just I don't know. It's such
a bummer because you you do have to imagine for
every person who saw themselves in Lee in a very
like genuinely felt way, you had some fun and creepy.

(01:25:00):
Did that felt like validated by Mr Gray? Of like, yeah,
you know what, actually, probably when I treat people that way,
I'm changing their life and making their life way better. Yeah.
And also I think it shows those men kind of
who to target. I mean, I think this movie is
mostly about how Mr Gray selects his victims. It's like

(01:25:24):
how he puts his secretaries through this test, like very
quickly find someone who doesn't understand boundaries by asking them
inappropriate questions in an interview, look and see if they
self harm, because that's something you can use. Is there
anything else where they play with their hair or their
insecure that you can use against them? I mean, it's
it's kind of dangerous in this way where I kind
of think, mostly we know nothing about Lee, but we

(01:25:46):
know a lot about how he chooses victims and why
he chosely. Yeah, and then and then it's supposed to
by the end you're like, no, but she's changed, and
now he is changed. Change. But then but actually it's
like you were saying, we know less about them at
the end than we did at the beginning, and it's
just kind of confusing. I will say, though I love

(01:26:11):
Maggie Gillan Hall in this movie, I just generally love
her so much. She can make uh not great movie
much better. And this was kind of like a turning
point in her career in a way that I always
find kind of like interesting slash frustrating of like this
was her I don't know. I feel like there is

(01:26:32):
like this very trackable trend of mostly prior to this,
like Maggie Gillan Hall has been in a lot, but
she would mostly play like somebody's daughter or like she
was like a very side character. She was not a
leading lady. And I feel like there this happens a
lot where you have to do like the sex role,
and once you do the sex role, well you have

(01:26:55):
become a legitimized actor, like as a as a woman,
you mean, like as a Yeah, I think, I mean,
I think we've seen a million times in like Sunny
play stops, Funny, you gotta stop, sorry, Sunny Stop. I
don't I can't speak to what just happened. Sonny at

(01:27:15):
it again, bat Sonny doesn't like when women speak for
too long, but I'll have to say, like I feel like,
you know, like it's very trackable, and and and and
Maggie Jillen Hall is like twenty three four when she
films this, so it's not quite disagregious. But you know,
it's like when a Disney star or Nickelodeon star graduates

(01:27:37):
out of playing kid roles and does an adult role,
it's always like a zero to one hundred, like the
most adult role that could possibly play. And this is
kind of that moment for Maggie Jillen Hall. And she's
a great I mean, she's a she's so talented, and
it like, in spite of everything, I still think she
gives a really good performance. I just wish that didn't

(01:28:00):
necessarily have to happen to for her to be another stuff.
And at least she does sell that that look at
the end, that that breaking the fourth wall, like that
is entirely just Maggie being like, I did what I
could to save this movie. Don't put it on me.
And then she says a cat is not a dog.

(01:28:23):
I yeah, yeah, maybe that's like the best read of
that end moment is that's Maggie Jillen Hall talking to
the audience being like, listen, there's only so many ways
to get ahead, and I promised to be subversive in
the future. Please just give me a chance. I'll do
the deuce someday. It'll be great. Yes, she will do

(01:28:47):
the deuce, at least for me. Now, I see this
movie as like her movie. I see it as like
a thing that made her. It helped her career, and
it's great when you look at sort of what she's
done and as an actress. But if I were to
like teach a class on sexuality and good representations of
b D s M, I would not include it. No, No,

(01:29:10):
I mean I appreciate media that attempts to normalize things
that are widely misunderstood by you know, the general population,
as like b D s M still is, I think,
but like with Secretary, we weren't there with it being
represented responsibly on the grounds. Especially again that like, there

(01:29:36):
is a full on assault that happens, and it is
framed by the movie as no, this is just the
start of this dom sub relationship, and it's like, no,
that is not what happens. That's just a girl who
got spanked and did not know what a subdom relationship
even was yet right right, and did not consent to

(01:29:56):
it again, like nothing about what he was going to
do had been previously discussed or agreed upon. And the
power dynamic of like, I mean, you know, it's not
like a manufactured B D s M power dynamic. It
is a real power dynamic. He controls her income and
takes it away, and like there's just so much actually

(01:30:19):
fucked up stuff happening. Oh my god, I forgot about.
The most annoying part is like her mom take like
picks her up and waits outside the office for her
to get off work all the time, and then finally
one day, James Spader's character is like, you're gonna walk
home from now on by yourself, and she does it,
and she's like, I felt like I was walking for

(01:30:41):
the first time, and I was like, like, you know,
you needed a man to tell you you could go
on a walk. Yes, she needed this man to tell
her to do so many things, and it's like not that,
like I don't know, like you know, it just doesn't work.
It just doesn't work, and it never and just like

(01:31:01):
the very specific detail of she has just gotten out
of like an extended stay in the hospital for self harm,
like that is never really referenced again. It's just kind
of used as a convenient like there's a whole other
set of like you're going through a lot when you
get out of a situation like that. But she doesn't

(01:31:21):
seem to really yeah, at least on screen, doesn't seem
to process it at all. It never seems to click.
It's never like her parents are like and then her
parents seemed cool that the newspapers are there when she's
having what could be described as a mental breakdown, but
they don't call it her old therapist. They're not like
we should like call her old hospital and see if

(01:31:43):
they can get someone over here. Right. It's very confusing
because at the beginning, he's seen as saying he like
says to her like, if you ever need help with anything,
like call me, I'll do my best to help you,
Like where do you go? Yeah, and then he doesn't
and then we don't see Yeah, they just like bring
in all these people who are like maybe you should

(01:32:03):
read about feminism, dummy, which like a weird way for
the book to be, like, I that feminists have a
problem with this movie. And it's like I thought that
was a very kind of like funny two two passive aggressive, like, ah,
this woman without middle part and like is giving a

(01:32:25):
lot of books. She doesn't get it. She's just angry.
She's so mad and we don't know why. And there
I mean, and she's in it for all of two
I mean literally to see and she's in the scene
where she stomps on the jacket and then she shows
up at the end to say he was actually a
genius the whole time. Um, And what her name is, Trisha?

(01:32:47):
Is that right? Um? Sounds about right? But even she,
I mean, that is such a quickly written like shrew,
shrew shrew. Seeing that she is there to sort of
in part. Maybe she's the only person to use b
DSM like vocabulary in the entire movie. And then we're like,

(01:33:07):
but we hate her, but she also thinks he's a genius,
but who even is she? And I think it would
have been cool if she had, like if she had
been his dumb if we'd actually seen like that's like
why they got divorced or like that, like he at
least had been in a b DSM relationship before, and
maybe some of his difficulties with Lee, Yeah, with Lee

(01:33:30):
is like now that he's in the dom position, he
feels bad about torturings. Like if there was any sort
of context like that, we could have maybe felt bad
for Mr Gray or like seen where he was coming from.
But instead it's just like, why why are you so
upset with this thing that you have done before? Wait?
Why are you upset that you're into B D S M?

(01:33:51):
Like why do you have all of these Why did
you have you invested so much money? Though? Then why
are you putting their saddles cost so much money? There
are a lot of money and it looks like a
nice one and he has a whole grass bed table
that in like also that bathtub was very nice. And
I guess above his office he did home. I don't know.

(01:34:16):
He just carries her upstairs, that's truely does just pick her? Yeah,
that makes me laugh. It's I mean that dress should
be covered in poop and it should just be a
more to do. They start framing her letters with like
spelling mistakes and like put him along the wall like
a sexy bank wallers and homage. Yeah, which I was

(01:34:40):
just like, people not come into your office often that
you two can just like hang your kinks on the wall.
Does he have any clients. Um, yeah, well, I mean
I'm pulling from again our favorite scholarly journal Wikipedia here.
But the director, Steven Shaneberg, has had said that he

(01:35:02):
wanted to make this movie because he wanted to show
that b D s M relationships can be normal, and
that he was inspired by the film My Beautiful Launderette,
which he felt normalized gay relationships for audiences in the eighties.
So he made this movie with the intention of normalizing
b D s M relationships and culture. Um did he

(01:35:24):
do it? Well? Um, not necessarily failed. I at least
appreciate knowing that he that is what he wanted to do,
because there's also a read of this movie where I
could be like, maybe that's not what he wanted to do.
So I guess, of the options, I'm glad he at
least was trying, but he did fail. I mean, I

(01:35:48):
guess like that final shot where it like pans out
and it's like, look at that these b D s
M freaks could just be any couple in your neighborhood.
You wouldn't know, like they just they blend in. I
guess is like, yeah, anybody could be into this, sure,
but they wouldn't be like these people probably because they

(01:36:10):
they misrepresented the whole community. But you know that you're
probably just like a like a normal woman in your
mid twenties who likes to get spanked, and you're okay,
just claiming that for yourself, right right, right, Well doesn't
even have Is there anything else that we haven't hit
on yet? I think that's all I had. That's all

(01:36:31):
I wanted to touch on. That's all my points. We
got into all of it. I feel like, yeah, we
really once again and as an episode the length of
the movie as all of ours. Um, well, does this
movie pass the Bechdel test? Oh? I forgot to check.

(01:36:53):
I think it does. Between her and her mother, although
her mother isn't specifically given a first name, I think
her mother is a present enough character in this story
that I would count that. I wasn't sure about that
because I was like, technically, is the scene about the
abusive dad? But then I guess they don't really say
anything really. There's a couple of scenes where like they're

(01:37:15):
in the car together and her mom says something like,
I'm so proud of you for like putting yourself out
in the world and going out and getting a job
and stuff like that. So there's a there's a couple
of scenes like that. She also Lee also talks to
the paralegal woman who I believe is not named. We
never learned her name, but she says, what even is
a paralegal? And then the paralegal says and then leaves.

(01:37:38):
Also the paralegal here's her masturbating in the bathroom later. Yes, yep.
The paralegal is used to even to like disempower Lee
even more or like not the character, but the fact
that he's like, Oh, I hire someone to actually do
the work I need, and then I have like the
person that I'm emotionally abusing on my parents. Yeah, just
so he doesn't do anywhere. Also a quick shout at

(01:38:02):
Lee's mom is played by Lesliean Warren a k a.
Miss Scarlett and Clue. So, oh, she's kind of she's
she's blond in this movie, so it's hard to write.
I wouldn't have made that that connection. But you know,
she's got range. She's got range true well as far
as our nipple. Our nipple scale, in which we examine

(01:38:25):
how the movie fares looking at it through an intersectional
feminist lens. Again, the movie shows abuse and assault, but
it does not frame what happens in the movie as
abuse or assault. Instead, it conflates it with what b
D s M is, and the movie fails to acknowledge

(01:38:49):
all the important things about a healthy b D s
M relationship, like consent, communication, safety, establishing boundaries, establishing trust
after care. She would have learned this in the book
on tape, right, yeah, and then she would have looked
back and been like, oh, oh my gosh, there wasn't

(01:39:11):
any of that. I this was actually very harmful. I
should run away and not ever talk to This movie
is just like her listening to book and on tape
and being like, oh, oh my gosh, this guy has
horrible dynamics, just horrible. Wow. She meets a nice guy
on Craigslist and then they're happy. Yeah, right, and then
and then she can go and enter into a respectful

(01:39:31):
and mutually consensual b D s M relationship if that's
what she's into. But the movie really does. I think
it does a huge disservice to b D s M
and it's community. I think that even though at least
perhaps not so much any more now that we is

(01:39:52):
a just like our cultural climate of having a better
understanding of consent. Even in within the past few years
that has lifted, and I would be curious to know
how people who would originally defended this movie if they
would feel still feel the same way about it. Um.
But in any case, I think that because uh, I
just I think this movie does a huge disservice to

(01:40:13):
B D s M relationships because of the of all
the stuff it completely overlooks. There is very easily a
way in which you can show an empowered female character
with agency who is a sub in a dom sub relationship,
because if you understand anything about dom sub relationships, you
know that it's actually the sub who holds much of

(01:40:35):
the power in the relationship because it's the sub who
sets all the boundaries and parameters. It's the subs needs
and wants and curiosities that are being fulfilled by the dom.
But that doesn't get explored really at all in the
movie because we never see Mr Gray listening to what

(01:41:00):
Lee wants or needs. We don't see really any communication
between them at all except him being verbally and emotionally
abusive toward her. For sure, I think that their relationship
makes no sense, so they don't know anything about each
other it's just the whole thing is very, very ichy
to me. I'm going to give it one nipple just

(01:41:22):
for the fact that it does attempt to normalize B
D s M culture. But again again, like I don't
it doesn't even do better than then fifty Shades of Great.
At least fifty Shades of Gray talks about consent, even
if it is horribly written. This did make me want
to try to watch fifty Shades of Gray again, and

(01:41:44):
I just really wanted to. Quickly, I googled the cursed phrase,
whereas fifty Shades of Gray streaming, and I found this
incredible click bait piece that someone had really put artistry
into because it said it was basically all it needed
to say was fifty Shades of Great is not currently
streaming in the US, but it was somehow fourteen paragraphs

(01:42:06):
long because I'm sure that like I've had those jobs,
like you're kind of being paid by the word, and
so she really just like made or I don't know
what with the gent, but like they just made a
meal of it, and so they said, like yours in
the UK may be able to watch the first installment
of this titilating saga on Netflix. However, if you live
in the US of A, you may need to go

(01:42:29):
somewhere else to find your SNM. And then it said
in parentheses streaming and movies like that the news and
you know everyone's got there there and in parentheses streaming
in movies. I was like, Ah, Pulitzer, incredible. Yeah, I

(01:42:51):
just I guess I just long for the movie and
I'm sure it's out there. So listeners, if you have
any suggestions on movies that tackle b D s um
that are actually responsible and not centered around abuse and assault,
let us know. But it's it's not here with secretary.
So yeah, one nipple, um, and I guess I'll give

(01:43:12):
it to I'll give it to her mom, who I
feel I was robbed by the story. Um, I'll arbitrarily
give it one and a half. I don't really know why.
I appreciate that. I appreciate that in its time, this
movie was the only of its kind at least uh

(01:43:34):
that was semi ish mainstream indie Darling like I, I
do appreciate that element of its history. I am glad
that you know there was at least a somewhat honest attempt,
even though it is so messy like the thing that
is most frustrating to me, and also it is I mean,

(01:43:54):
we haven't even it's like the whitest movie of all time.
I don't know that we ever. Yeah, that wasn't even
worth bringing up to me. I was just like, this
is just not a movie that black people even want
to be involved with. I think I even I feel
like there may have been a background character and they
probably were like I'm gonna opt out. No, thank you, guys,

(01:44:15):
got just it's good. This is all you. This is
all But it's like even on top of that, I
feel like in Lee's life and in in her orbit,
there were so many opportunities for her to like speak
to and like advance her own story of maturity. If
she had just been comfortable talking to women that were

(01:44:38):
already around her instead of like putting all her eggs
in the James Spader basket where they're like, it could
be a totally different movie if she talks to Tricia
and like seeks out Tricia's guidance or advice, which apparently
she was very willing to give the whole movie, which
we didn't know. Um, there's this whole, there's this whole
like catalog of resources and people that she could track

(01:45:02):
down and talk to, which I think would have been
kind of more interesting to me. Is like if she
realizes at the midpoint, like, oh, this is not good,
this is not what I thought it was. How do
I fix this? And then she can like find other
people who have had this experience and figure out how
to get ship on track or like get some sort
of revenge, And then like, there's so many ways I
can see it going if she or if she had

(01:45:23):
just been you know, able to talk with her mom
or her sister and they hadn't been painted as like
these like don't be this person. This person is bad
and submissive in the wrong way, like you're saying, Caitlin.
So it feels like there's a lot of missed opportunities.
The relationship is like just generally really bad. It's not
fair to the b D s M community. If fifty

(01:45:46):
Shades of Gray is doing better, that's just really bleak.
But I appreciate its place in history, and I'm glad
that movies have continued to do better. I hope that
they I mean, I hope that you know, don't stop
at fifty shades please, uh, probably give it a nipple

(01:46:06):
and a half, which might be too much, but I'll
give one to Maggie Gillenhall and then I will give
the other half to Tricia. Okay, but in the first
scene we see her, and not the second when she's
trampling the coach, I found her confusing in the second scene. Yeah, actually,
what about you? Uh, you know what I'm gonna I'm
gonna give it to what nipples I am because it's

(01:46:30):
the reason why I like being spanked, and I like
when people tell me what to eat for dinner. So
I owe it that. That's probably the only two good
things that came out of this movie in history. Um.
But yeah, I do think it tries to get people
comfortable with an idea they hadn't been comfortable with. And
I do think that it came at this time when

(01:46:53):
every mainstream kind of woman in a in a movie
was so quirky and like carefree and like romantic and sweet,
and it crushed that idea, which I really appreciate. So
I'm gonna give it to and you know what, I'm
gonna give them both to Peter. Peter, he just deserves it.

(01:47:15):
I hope. Peter went on to like really find someone
who could give him the love he deserved. Yeah, just
in super vanilla, just like the most vanilla missionary person,
just like maybe the most boring life of all time,
and loved every second of it. Yeah. I'd rather watch
that movie than watch any like moment of like James

(01:47:37):
Spader and Lee trying to like have a life together. Yeah,
you're like, oh god, it just makes me depressed to
think about. Yeah. Oh well, Peter always asks for consent
and they're like, what a loser. You're like, no, but
Peter's ahead of his time. Oh stupid Peter. He's like
asking if it's okay to get a condom and like
spank you first, Like, oh man, Peter's only one in

(01:48:00):
the twenty one century. They don't even know it. I did.
I did laugh at the joke after Peter and Lee
have had sex and he's like I didn't hurt you,
did I? And she's like no, she's very upset, did
not hurt her? But you don't even Ashuley, thank you
so much for being here. This is so much fun.

(01:48:22):
This is my favorite movie to talk about. It was
everything I wanted it to be. Hell, yeah, um, where
can people follow your stuff? What would you like, Yeah,
just at the Ashley Ray on Twitter, Instagram everything. I
write reviews for The ninety Day Fiance and I may
destroy you on the A B Club and Vulture go

(01:48:44):
check those out. Just follow me on Twitter. That's where
I post everything at the Ashley Ray awesome. You can
check us out on Twitter and Instagram. At betel Cast,
you can go to our Patreon a k a. Matreon,
which gets you to bonus episodes a month plus access
to the whole back catalog of bonus episodes and it's
only five dollars a month. And that's at patreon dot com,

(01:49:06):
slash backtel Cast. We've got our t Public stored t
public dot com, slash the pectel Cast and us where
you can get all your merchandizing needs. I think we
have masks now, there are masks, masks and everything, so
go over there and get one of those. Otherwise, Miss Halloway,
please step into my office. What are you are you

(01:49:30):
calling me? Said? Spick up? Miss Halloway, please step into
my office. Okay, bye,

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