Shape of Water

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Dog Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism? The patriarchy zef invest start
changing it with the bec Del cast. Hey Jamie, Hey Caitlin,
it's your birthday, So I brought you some hard boiled eggs.

(00:24):
Do you want to kiss and then have sex in
my bathroom? Um, let's see where things go. Yeah, that
was a lot to ask. I appreciate. I appreciate. I
think people should be a little more direct. Um. And
I'm just being clear with my intentions, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah,
I will say like, I just want to make sure

(00:45):
that me, like accepting the egg isn't like a metaphor
in your eyes. And it's just a validation that I
am hungry and and I'm never gonna turn down a
free egg. That's so fair, honey, I'm not going to
turn it out a free I go to any circumstances
someone for set sweet. That's like a disgusting free food
to offer. Oh, I got I got eggs with the

(01:07):
brain recently. Oh I heard a wild story about eggs
the other day. Okay, but that's what I'll tell you
off pod. Well, you listeners can just wonder what jabel
egg story was. The intrigue friend told me a really
long story about eggs and it was disgusting, disgusting. Okay, well,
I can't wait to hear about it. Well, anyway, this

(01:30):
is our podcast in which we should we that past,
that past. Oh my gosh, look at us passing the
Bectel test on your birthday to have been talking about
an egg anecdote because I wasn't specific about the gender
of the person who had the egg experience. True, and
eggs are feminist icon eggs, so icon the egg. Um,

(01:57):
there's a great I'm a big fan of YouTuber Jenny
Nicholson and she made a video about the Lamb Before
Time movies and singles out this song in like Lamb
Before Time forty seven where they ran out of ideas
and like the fourth one, and so in the one,

(02:19):
the villain is like a raptor who loves eggs and
he sings a song about eggs. Okay, yeah, I love
that egg culture. Culture is really strong. Um. Okay, so
this is our podcast. It's my birthday, It's your birthday,
Happy birthday. Jamie thinks a few things right at the top.

(02:40):
So this is our show in which we examine movies
through an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechtel test as
a jumping off point. We can chat about that in
a moment, but I just want to point out that
this is our second attempt at doing this episode on
the shape of water. What if we failed again? That'd
what if the egg thing was what took first? It

(03:02):
was the three eleven. Yeah, let's tell let's let's tell
them what happened because it was I think as it
was happening, we were having so much fun, but we
were also like a little we're scaring ourselves a little
bit because it's never happened, unprecedented truly. So what happened
is that we were all set to record an episode
on the shape of water, totally prepped. It wasn't a
matrix situation. The intentions were clear and we were going

(03:26):
to do it. We however, both had a heart out.
We only had about ninety minutes to record, and so
we start recording. We started talking and we were silly.
We were feeling silly. We hadn't recorded an episode in
a while because I am on tour in Europe, so
you know, we were just catching up. The vibes were loose,

(03:48):
and they were so loose that you got an email
about a three eleven the music group cruise, which I
still don't quite know what this could be. Three eleven
the band? Yeah, yeah, and so are they do they
perform on the cruise? Is it three eleven Themes? Okay,
all of you above, Okay, Yeah, they're definitely there. I

(04:09):
don't think that they have anything anything else going on.
Needlessly cruel, needlessly cruel. They're on the cruise, as the point, right,
So this, like this alert that you got about this cruise,
sent us on a spiral in which we did not
recover from and we spend a full hour and may
never we will never recover from it. So I believe

(04:35):
at the time of the release of this episode on
the Shape of Water, Matrons will have been exposed to
the episode that we are talking about right now. This
kind of we went off the rails and had a
silly time episode. I don't think, and and and just
to plug the Matrion while we're while we're here, hello,

(04:58):
I think it's been a while since we've had truly
off the rails Matreon episode. It's that's not usually how
it goes. We usually, you know, use the Matrion to
cover popular requests. We don't usually have guests on the Matreon.
It's a more loose format, but it's the same Bechtel
cast flavor. But occasionally, I would say, maybe once a

(05:20):
year there's an episode that is just like what's happening,
and this is that episode, and we hope you enjoy it.
But but nonetheless, we had prepared for an episode, so
we're doing it now. So I don't know, I know,
I feel focused, I feel good. The egg thing, we

(05:40):
were in danger for a second, but I I texted
you the egg anecdote, I think, and so now you
have it, and now I released that perfect So from
my mind, we can move on to talking about what
the Bechtel Test is, which is a media metric created
by Queer cartoon is Alison Bechtel, sometimes called the Bechtel

(06:01):
Wallace Test. Our version is this, two characters of a
marginalized gender must have names, they must speak to each other,
and their conversation has to be about something other than
a man, and ideally it's a substantial, meaningful conversation. Yes,
so that's the criteria, Like two women discussing eggs exactly

(06:24):
is an example that's not the Let's be clear, there's
other ways that That's not the only way the test
can work. Yes, absolutely, um So, today's episode is on
the Shape of Water and this is your big birthday episode, Jamie. So,
why don't you tell me, tell us all the listeners

(06:48):
out there in the world your relationship with this movie. Well, yeah,
I guess I am mostly telling newer listeners of the
podcast because you you were there for my Shape of
Water face, and um so were many of our Day
one rider dies I had a whole thing. I did

(07:09):
a stand up joke about it for years. Really loved
the Fisherman for the Shape of Water, was like, why
is this horny? Slash? I love how horny this is?
Slash Wow. Doug Jones like, that's a Pandora's box of
my favorite thing in the world, which is obscure details

(07:31):
about character actors, Like, there was just a lot of
elements of this movie that was tick tick tick tick ticking.
For me. Um. I love del Toro, and I also
love like I'll tend to skew more towards um del
Toro's sentimental side of his catalog mainly just because not yeah,

(07:53):
mainly just because I'm not much of an action person,
so I'm very excited. It's like, oh, this is maybe
the most sentimental one. Yeah, I really enjoyed this movie
when it came out. I didn't think about it critically
very much. I know, I feel like when it came out,
I feel like it was like people generally liked it,
but it was I think maybe considered to be a

(08:13):
bit overrated in terms of how much awards attention it generated.
But I didn't really care. I mean, I was like,
Del Toro won an Oscar for this, and I feel
like people never win the Oscar for the movie they're
supposed to the point is that they get it, So
would it maybe have made sense for him to win
for another movie? Sure, La Brenth Pansla exactly. Um, I

(08:38):
remember seeing a lot of takes and that I'm like,
you're not even wrong, but I just, you know, leave
Leaf Deltara alone. Where they that was all the same
year to get Out came out. They're like, get Out
should have one best picture that's the most impactful, memorable,
good picture. You might be right about that, I think,
I mean, certainly cultural impact and good okay, but we're

(09:00):
not here to talk about I don't want to hit
the boys against each other. I love Shape of Water.
It makes me cry. It was It was interesting too
prepare this episode because I do think that there is
a lot to talk about in terms of the subjects.
It doesn't do well on or or UM. I think that,

(09:21):
you know, in the five years, I can't believe it's
been five years since I was seeing Titania and or
Shape of Water in theaters every day. I guess also,
I do think that this is a thing like where
end of a bit of a low for for your girl,
you know, Jim, and I feel like, you know, the
movies that you become attached to when you're at a

(09:41):
bit of a low in this era, Shape of Water,
in Titania, they're just always a little special to you.
But like, yeah, well, I think that there's a huge
um conversation about disability, in particular in the portrayal of
disability in big movies that needs to be had About
this movie, I'm excited to get into it, and I'm
excited to get horny for the fish Man again. It's

(10:03):
been a while. I remember how much you loved his
fish but and fish abbs, I think you were really
isolating certain parts of his fish body and I was
objective hying him fish thigh gap, I want to say
as well, he did have it. Oh my god, I
forgot not the thigh gap. I forgot that. I was
really fixated on the thigh gap. Yes, wow, I wonder

(10:28):
what's happened to because I wasn't. Maybe maybe I'm making
progress on my own body issues because the thigh gap
didn't leap out at me this time, so progress question mark.
We don't know. Could be that said, yes, the sexty
fish does have a thigh gap, um, and that's just
those are beautiful truth. I don't think that they ever

(10:49):
ended up making an action figure of him, which I
feel like I need to check. But I feel like
it was that was amissing. It was kind of just
like much like I was waiting for the Babu Frick
Plushy to come out. You're guess it's going to happen.
It's just a matter of time. I thought that the
having the fishman in my home would be inevitable, but
it hasn't happened. Well, maybe you have to open your

(11:11):
birthday present from me just kidding. Life Dug just pops
out of a cake. I don't want to make any
promises I can't keep. So maybe what's your history with
the Shape of What Terror? I saw it in theaters
I think only one time. Unbelievable. I think my favorite

(11:32):
thing about this movie is the production design, and I
like the story generally, but it's not my favorite of
Del Toro's and I just didn't feel that much of
an attachment to it. I was kind of flabbergasted that
it one best picture. Yeah, I thought there were other
movies that were far more deserving, and I was so

(11:54):
I kind of like ended up having some resentment toward
it because of that, and then I never engaged with
it again. So I don't I like this movie. I
don't love it. It's just I feel kind of maybe
even neutral, I suppose about it these days. Um, but
it was interesting revisiting it. I noticed, Um, do you

(12:16):
remember when we covered a little princess and there was
like this green motif and everyone was like, what does
green mean in this movie? A Fonso Koran, what are
you What are you trying to say with the green?
And he was like nothing, I just like green and
I found I think maybe del Toro was doing the
same kind of thing because so much of this movie

(12:39):
is green or like little objects are just little flourishes
in the movie are green, and it has a very
similar like yeah, just like color palette and like lighting
scheme as a little princess. And I guess other of
his movies. I mean, he's like pretty consistently like visually
consistent in his work, and yeah, I think that's a

(13:00):
major strength of his Again, but um, I was like,
there's a lot of green in this movie. What does
the green mean? And I just want I'm hoping that
someone asks Garmo about it and then he's just like nothing,
I just like green. We can't get into it here
because this is another yet another, I think, the other
major derailer of our last episode. But the timing of

(13:23):
this episode is kind of fun, not intentionally, but because
the new trailer for Garamos, why am I okay, I'm
not on a first name. Garmo dels Horos Pinocchio movie
just came out. We can't talk about Pinocchio anymore, No,
we cannot today, And if you don't know why, it's

(13:44):
because we accidentally talked about Pinocchio instead of the Shape
of Water for four to five minutes. Yes, wow, I
it's like genuinely like my chest tightened a little bit
because I still want to talk about Pinocchio Gate. Look
it up out of the Pinocchio is coming to the
Matrian this November. Okay, shape before Okay, so we both

(14:05):
saw it in theaters. I really was attached to it
at the time. I haven't watched it in a couple
of years. Honestly, the moment passed for me. Unlike Titania,
which I still watch constantly, I don't watch The Shape
of Water constantly, So it was interesting to revisit it
with a few years distance. Still, I mean, the cast
of this movie is rather wild. Character actor after character

(14:29):
actor just top marks across the world casting wise. Okay,
let's talk about the movie. Let's do it. Let's take
a quick break first and then come back and talk
about the movie. Okay, we'll be right back. Splash blash,

(14:52):
and we're back. So shall we get into what's going on?
And what do we ever figure out? Do we figure
out what the shape of water? Oh? Like what literally
like the answer to that question, like, what is the
shape of water? Is it just the shape of Doug
Johns oh with his butt and abs and is it

(15:13):
just that shape? Because I'm fine with that? Could be
that it could be something a little more poetic, like
what isn't the shape of water or something? You know?
Whoa what it? And the shape of water could be?
Didn't ask that question? The shape of water is an
idea to lie? You tell here? Oh my gosh, okay, sorry,

(15:35):
what happens in the movie? Okay, So we open on
an image of like the interior of an apartment that's
completely underwater. We're also getting voice over from someone who
tells us about yes, uh this tale of love and
loss and a monster. And then we meet Eliza. That's

(15:59):
Sally Hawkins k Mrs Brown from Paddington. It is so
wild we forget. I think we mentioned this in our
Paddington episode with Demio di Jui bay Um, that you
get to see Mrs Brown's nipples in this movie. It's
very alarm mantelis Paddington. Imagine Paddington seeing shape of water.

(16:22):
I don't think he's allowed. Oh my god, how old
is Paddington? Paddington is a child? Question mark? And why
does he have the voice of an adult man because
bears and why can't you? And then he can't be
a child. Wait, hold on, he can't be a child
because he goes to adult jail and he has the
voice of an adult man. He's an adult, he's but

(16:43):
that doesn't mean he should see his mother's nipples. I'm
just saying, Yeah, these are some interesting questions, much like
what is the shape of water? How old is Paddington's
will never know? They should have sent Paddington, They would
have sent him to Juvie, which I also would have
been interesting. Okay, we're getting into derailing territory. We're gonna

(17:06):
focus up again. Okay, Okay, So we meet Eliza. We
are in I don't know if it's like the late
nineteen fifties, early nineteen sixties, it's like Cold War era USA. Yeah,
post World War Two. It seems like we're in the
trenches because there's a lot of Eastern European space race

(17:27):
specific stuff. Yes, yes, and we are in Baltimore, Maryland.
Ever heard of it? Oh? With nineteen sixty two sixty two?
Okyonically got it. So we see Eliza wake up and
go about her morning routine, which is that she boils
an egg, she draws herself a bath, she jerks herself off,

(17:49):
and then she pays a visit to her neighbor Giles
played by Richard Jenkins, and all of his cats as well.
A lot of cat visibility in the movie, a lot
of cat nipples as a result, a lot yes uh,
and then one cat casualty, which is the worst part

(18:10):
of the movie. Can't believe that's in the movie. Okay,
of all the things to cut that could be it, Yeah, yeah, Okay.
It becomes clear that Eliza does not speak with like
verbal language. She uses sign language to communicate. She then

(18:30):
gets on a bus and heads to work. She and
her co worker Zelda played by Octavia Spencer, work the
night shift cleaning some kind of like science slash government facility.
And then, while Eliza and Zelda are working the kind
of like scientists and lab technicians, various other personnel bring

(18:55):
in this super secret, super important asset that is going
to be housed at this facility, and whatever it is,
it's alive, and it's in a large tank of water,
and it's a sexy fish guy. And then it turns
out to be a very sexy fish guy. Eliza is
very curious about Eliza is very curious about what this

(19:18):
might be, and she kind of like makes a ton
of little bit of contact with it. We like see
its hand, but then it's kind of like whisked away
and the crowd goes wild. I saw this in theaters
several times, and you know, like you could tell who
was there for certain reasons. And I guess that's all
I have to say about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So

(19:41):
we also meet Dr hoff Stetler, who's played by Michael
Stallbarg And I don't know if we have covered a
movie with Michael Stallbarg in it, but now I know
that cat friend of the cast, Katherine Leon, yes um
of This by Kids episode. Of course. Yeah, she had

(20:03):
like a Michael stallbarg newsletter for a while, Is that correct? Yeah,
the Daily Barg in which she would just stick to
Daily Bark send out a photo of Michael Stallberg to
any subscribers of this newsletter just to say, hey, here's
another photo. Is it still active? I don't think so. Ah, yeah, sad,

(20:27):
there's I mean, the this movie's Michael game is very strong,
because we're about to get Michael Shannon playing his in
his iconic role Patriarchy the one guy, which is a
role he plays often and well, yes, yes, indeed, So
Michael Stallberg is Dr. Hoff Stetler, who is the kind

(20:48):
of lead scientist overseeing this asset, and Michael Shannon plays Strickland,
who is a very sinister man overseeing the security of
this asset. Yeah. Then we cut to the next day
and Eliza and Giles go out for some pie. Is

(21:08):
mostly so that Giles can try to flirt with the
cute guy who works at the pie place. Then the pie.
I love how the pie is disgusting, like no matter,
like the pie is objectively bad and the only reason
that he's getting businesses because there's a crush and there's
a there's a crush. I mean, how much money have
we all spent because of a crush? I don't want

(21:29):
to talk about it. Oh my god, I went to WrestleMania.
What anyways? Okay, another story for another time because now
just chew on that. But the pie is green. The
green motif is starting green green chemical Google. Yes, So

(21:51):
we see Eliza at another day at work. Something happens
in the lab and Strickland rushes out with some of
his inger's missing, and Eliza and Zelda are called in
to clean up the bloody mess. And in this lab
there's a large pool of water that the asset is

(22:13):
maybe living in, swimming in um. And then Eliza meets
this quote unquote asset, which turns out to be a
sexy fishman played by Doug Jones, and the crowd goes wild. Yes,
we love him, he's so handsome. What a review. It
is a great reveal. That is such an iconic scene.

(22:36):
I feel like, even if you don't like the movie,
or you think the movie is like a little bit
forget well whatever, some of the common criticisms of this movie,
that's just like not his best. The little peak that
the fish guy does when he's looking at the egg
and they're logan eye and you're like, this rocks. That
happens in a in a couple of scenes from now okay,

(22:58):
sorry with sorry, I getting ahead of myself, because it's
my favorite scene in the whole movie when they I
love a meat cute and this is a real this
is a stressful beat cute, but it's good. Michael Shannon
is a Leo that I guess that makes sense. He
know comes his birthday. By the time you're hearing this,
he'll be it'll be his birthday. Yeah, it's and it's

(23:19):
Leo season. I was going to make a hilarious joke
that it's not a meat cute, it's a fish cute,
because in this case, meat is like an e a t.
It's a past paste cute, and Leo something to think about,
something you think about. So in this first little encounter here,

(23:45):
Eliza and the Fishman have kind of a little moment,
but they are interrupted when someone comes in and he
disappears into his tank of water. Um. So, the next day,
Eliza goes back into the lab and comes used to
face with the fishman. This is the scene you're talking about.
And at first he's like raw, but then she offers

(24:07):
him one of her hard boiled eggs and then he's
like raw. He's like what now, and he grabs it
and then he dives off into the pool. Yeah. Then
Strickland has a talk with Eliza and Zelda. He points
out the scars on Eliza's neck and we learn that

(24:29):
they are from an injury she sustained when she was
a baby and it's why she is not able to speak. Right. Then,
Eliza continues to visit the fish Man under the guise
of like cleaning the lab, but basically there's a montage
where she brings him a bunch of eggs, she plays

(24:51):
music for him, she teaches him some sign language. They're
falling and it gets pretty flirty. You're falling in love.
She dances and he's like, who, good dance. It's getting
it's getting pretty spicy in the lab. And who sees
this but Dr Hoffstetler. And then it's revealed that he

(25:14):
is a Russian spy who gives information about the Fishman
to his Soviet comrades. But his helpful thing is like, yeah,
I'm a spy, but also I love science, and I
think this fishman should be protected and like studied, and
you know, he's not like other spies. He's not like

(25:36):
the other spies. And we'll I don't know if I
like figured out a way exactly to work this into
the recap. But the whole reason that they have captured
this fish man is that he is able to kind
of switch his breathing mechanisms from like breathing with gills
underwater to breathing presumably with lungs above water like the air.

(26:01):
And they're studying this because again, both the US and
the Soviet Union are in this space race, and they're
trying to figure out, oh, can we like use the
anatomy of this fish man and kind of replicate that
so that we can like kind of use like how
do astronauts breathe in space kind of thing? So they're
like studying that. Any Way, I didn't really recognize that

(26:25):
that was what they were studying. And I've seen this
movie ten times. There's a lot of things that just
kind of whoop right over your head, and that's okay,
I don't go kinda come to this movie for science, alright.
So one day Eliza sees Strickland torturing the Fishman and

(26:49):
then some military personnel come in, and oh, this is
when we find out that, like they're studying him to
give the Americans an edge again the Soviets in the
space race. So Strickland wants to basically kill the Fishman
and dissect it. Dr Hoffsettler is like no, and Eliza

(27:11):
overhears all of this, so she starts to hatch a
plan to rescue the Fishman because she feels this very
intense connection with him. Not only have they been like
flirting romantically, but she feels that they are very similar
in that they can't speak with like verbal language, but

(27:33):
they can still communicate with each other, and she feels
that he sees her for what and who she truly
is in a way that she doesn't feel other people
see her exactly. So she begs for Giles to help
her with this rescue mission, which he refuses at first,
but then he changes his mind and agrees to help.

(27:56):
So they start to plan out this like high slash rescue,
and then it's time to execute it. Dr Hoffstetler realizes
what Eliza is doing and decides to help her get
the fishman out of his tank, but Strickland starts to
figure out that something's going on, as does Zelda, who

(28:18):
was like, Eliza, what are you doing? But then she
helps Eliza. Yeah, Strickland does the opposite. Meanwhile, Michael Shannon's
fingers are rotting off of his body and you're like,
it's a metaphor of it's still nasty to look at
yucky yucky, and then you're just like, Wow, who's the

(28:40):
real I mean, it's like this movie you very much
like know where it's going and what I was trying
to tell you but I kind of enjoy a lot
of parts of it. When you see the fingers start
to fall off, you're like, he's the bad guy. Wait
a second, is this say and he's the monster? This
is this a version? Yes? Yeah. So Eliza and Giles

(29:05):
successfully get the Fishman into this van that Giles is
driving and they escape, but Michael Shannon is like, who,
what is what's happening? Bang bang, and he's like firing
after them, but he doesn't know who has committed this
robbery of the fishman. It reminds me very much. Did

(29:26):
you ever know you you wouldn't have watched Hainold's right, Um,
I know of I know, I know it, but I didn't.
I didn't really watch it. The scene where they're getting
the fish Man out of the lab reminds me very much,
and I doubt that this was an inspiration at al
Toros is just similar. But one of my favorite episodes

(29:47):
of Hey Arnold, Shout Out, Hey Arnold Heads is when
Arnold's grandma, who's like kind of this renegade, they go
to the aquarium and they see a a big sea
turtle and like there's graffiti all over Michelle. He's not
being well taken care of. He's really sad, and then
they helped the sea turtle escape into the sea, and

(30:10):
it's a similar heist and it's also a similar like
he was read to be captive, how is he going
to survive in the wild? That TV show is capturing
heavy themes for children. Seriously, there's a whole section on
Wikipedia scholarly journal Wikipedia where it's like various people accusing

(30:32):
del Toro of plagiarism because apparently there are several existing
movies or plays or things like that that have very
similar stories to what degree to like people having sex
with a fish, because that might just be parallel thinking, right,

(30:53):
And I mean every everything was like concluded as it
was just parallel thinking and that like he didn't played
wise anything, but like one of them, for example, is
I think it was a movie about a cleaning lady
who helps a dolphin escape from a facility. I forget
what the other ones were, but helping helping any captive

(31:16):
animal escape zoo aquarium type situation, that's a pretty common theme.
It's just that you're not usually like dating them. I
think that's kind of the X factor. Yeah, I'm pretty
sure no one had sex with Willie in the movie
Free Willie. But that's what that movie. I haven't seen
that Willie escape, but we don't know. I forgot. I

(31:39):
forgot about Free Willy, who's in Free Willie. I feel
like there's like, you know what I will It's probably
like Devin saw Wall or something. I actually never saw
Free Willie. I feel like, probably see me. I've probably
been in the room and Free Willy was on, but
Free Willy was like not really my jam And I'm like,

(32:01):
I don't even know what I'm saying when I say that,
I don't know where I got stars Jason James Richter,
who Dad Lori Petty is in it? Um, Yeah, I
don't know where I got Devin Salwa. I feel like
anybody was probably just like and with all due respect
to Jason James Richter, Um, you know a young man

(32:22):
with banks, I feel like that's Devin Sawa Codd. I
understand where you were going. It was the nineties, after
all that Infinity bang, that Cowlick. Where did that go?
How did everyone suppress? Now? I still have mine? I
still have mine. It's a problem that I also wanted

(32:45):
to say really quick on the topic of um fish
sex stories. There was another piece of popular media that
came out around the same time about a woman falling
in love with the fish. I Believe a fish Man
the Pisces, which is a book by Melissa Broder. I

(33:06):
haven't read it, but it was like a pretty popular
novel that came out a couple of years ago. So,
for for whatever reason, this is on the minds and
hearts of the collective. Beautiful. Yeah, that's a beautiful story.
Thank you. I didn't write um when are they? Oh no,

(33:27):
I was gonna say something, but it's going to derail
the episode. Wait and say it really quick though, Okay,
and then we just have to move on. When is
the biopic coming out about me watching the animated movie
Legend of Titanic and falling in love with tentacles, the
giant optoples, not tentacles. You can't just bring up tentacles.

(33:48):
You're soul, right, That does derail everything. Tentacles. Okay, really
really really really really quick again. Listeners of the Matreon
will already know Tentacles is kind of fatal pass cannon.
So there's an animated movie about Titanic. It was made
in like five different countries. It's very kind of dissonant

(34:08):
in terms of it is like a mix of an
American tale because there's there's mice on the Titanic. Then
there's also the plot of the movie Titanic sort of
happening as well, and then what's the third movie. There's
like a third it's like sort of vaguely Little mermaid
ish but like not really, but you do see a

(34:30):
lot of like the Tentacles part. Yeah, yes, there's a
lot of underwater characters, like major characters like sharks and
the sharks bullies. Look, they weren't thinking too hard, like okay, yes,
So it's like the Little Mermaid story, the American Tales story,
and then just regular Titanic and it's all taking place
on the Titanic. It is sensory overload. The bullied in

(34:55):
this movie The Titanic. It doesn't go the way you're
expecting because we've been we've been gassed up with this
for the most of the movie. Seemingly unrelated story of
gigantic octopus who kind of fluctuates in size throughout the movie.
Sometimes he's it's the size of a regular octopus. Sometimes

(35:15):
he's the size of the Empire state building, or let's
say the Titanic or Titanic. So anyways, he's getting bullied,
but then he, like Belie, learns to believe in himself.
His name's Tentacles full and then he um, he whole.
He's so he's Titanic sized when it suits him, and
he ends up holding the Titanic together with all of

(35:38):
his His ticles are so mostly all and he's also
like fleshy colored. He's pink, yeah, he's. And so in
this version of the Titanic narrative, there are no casualties.
Everyone on Titanic survives because he holds the ship together
after it hits the iceberg and then breaks in half.

(35:59):
But he's like no, no, no, no, on my watch, Tentacles,
and then he saves everyone. So anyway, that's legend of Titanic.
It's on YouTube if you want to watch it, which
you should. Back to Shape of Water, I would watch
that movie if that you described, though, thank you me
falling in love with Tentacles, which I have done. So
where's the biopic? Alright, So Tentacles Eliza brings the fishman

(36:25):
back to I think they're in giles apartment and they
put him in the bathtub. So he's like kind of
chilling there, and Eliza's plan is to release him into
the ocean on the tenth of the month, when the
water in the canal will be high enough from the
rains to spill into the ocean. So they're going to
release him when that happens. So back at the facility,

(36:48):
Eliza and Zelda have to just like play it cool.
They have to pretend like they don't know what's going on,
which works out pretty well because the people who work
at the facility thing a like highly trained special forces
like Soviet group of people pulled off this heist, although

(37:08):
Strickland is like suspicious and he's like something doesn't add
up here, and he's also fixated on um for for nasty,
exploitative reasons. He's fixated on Eliza. Yes, So back at
Giles is the Fishman ventures out of the tub and

(37:29):
he does eat one of Giles's cats, which Giles does
not really have much of a reaction to. I will say,
he really takes his stride in a way that it's
like I don't think it would have been inappropriate or
even mean to have a bigger reaction than that. I
think he's he he's great about it, but you're like, wow,

(37:53):
did you even like, did he just kill your least
favorite cat? Because he does have like five cats or
something like that. Brutal, brutal, that's very like Victorian era
approach to having children vibe where you're like, well, I
still have enough laborers for the farm. You're like, jeez,

(38:13):
seems a little callous. So he eats one of Giles's
cats and then he scratches Giles's arm and then runs away.
So Eliza rushes home and finds the Fishman in the
nearby movie theater. She brings him back, puts him in
the bathtub, and then they have this sexy little moment
and then Eliza gets naked and gets into the bathtub

(38:36):
with him. Cut to her on the bus with a
big smile on her face, and then at work she
uses sign language to explain to Zelda that the Fishman
has a fish dick that comes out of a little
opening in his thigh gap. Top tier reaction from Octavia Spencer, Uh,

(39:00):
he got that, it's she's she's I wish that her
role was um it's I mean, it's like pretty big
at this movie, but I wish I wish it was
even bigger um. But that that reaction alone, I mean, yeah,
what can you say? It's perfect? No notes. So then
Eliza goes home again, and this is when we get

(39:22):
the famous scene where Sally Hawkins fills the entire bathroom
with water and Fox the fish Man on screen, which
causes all of this leaking, and Giles was like, what
the fund and he opens the door and all the
water gushes out, very similar to a scene in Paddington

(39:43):
when Paddington's in the bathroom full of water high Jinks
and Sue and then the door opens and all the
water comes gushing out, only this time, which I'm like,
in this movie, is that a metaphor for like them orgasm? Ng?
Not sure, it's just to wow, makes you think it
could be, could be? And then so Giles is like

(40:05):
what And then Eliza is like hugging the fishman and
then she just kind of like smiles and shrugs. She's like,
it is what it is. Also, it turns out that
the Fishman has healing powers, and I didn't always forget
that he has healing powers. Yeah, because it's introduced kind
of late into the movie, and I'm sure we'll mention

(40:29):
this in in the discussion. But at one point we
learned that some entity was like digging for oil in
the Amazon rainforest. They found this fish man and brought
it back to this facility. But they described that this
fishman was like revered as a god by the indigenous

(40:50):
people living in the Amazon, and it could be that
he was like revered as a god because he has
these healing powers. This is all kind of like very
gloss stover and if like you get up to go
to the bathroom during that scene, like you will entirely
miss this part. But basically, he has these healing powers.
He heals giles is scratch on his arm. He also

(41:13):
grows some hair on giles bald head, which we know
that he's very self conscious about. And then I forgot
I always forget about that as well. And then something
I always forget about. There's this like kind of fantasy
scene where Eliza speaks and then she starts singing, and
then there's like this whole like black and white fantasy

(41:34):
song and dance scene between her and the fishman and
they're dancing and it's like very like classic Hollywood. There
are some issues with that kind of thing. That's another
thing where I was just like, mmmm, there are better
ways to Yeah. Anyways, um, well we'll get to that too.
Yeah kind of. That was like heavily featured in the

(41:54):
marketing for this movie, but I kind of forget about
it because it's such a I think, uh huttable moments,
throw away moment. Yeah, you're like, oh, this is a
very expensive cutaway. Right. Meanwhile at the lab, everyone is like,
where's the fish. We gotta find the fish, and the
Soviets are like, hey, Michael Stallberg, where's the fish? We

(42:19):
wanted its dead body? So everyone's looking for the fish.
Hashtag where's the fish is trending in Twitter. Yeah. Then
we realized that the Fishman's health is failing and he
needs to be released into the ocean a sap. There's
a scene where hoff Stetler's Soviet comrades shoot him, but

(42:42):
then Strickland shows up and he kills the comrades and
he's like, what the fuck, hoff Stetler, you're a spy.
You were speaking Russian. And then as hoff Stetler is dying,
he lets it slip that it was the cleaning crew
who stole the Fishman, and Strickland realizes, oh, it must
have in Eliza and Zelda. Yeah, he wanted I wanted

(43:03):
to vibe check on this. I was sort of like
feeling betrayed by Hofstetler at the end because like he's dying,
why sell them out at that point? Like for what reason?
I had the same thought. I feel like that was
a little bit of narrative convenience of like, we need
to get Michael Shannon his info. But I felt like
that was like undercutting who we had grown to find

(43:26):
that character to be like a complicated like he wouldn't
give away the agendas of people who's like who he
felt were good in acting towards the greater good, and
that was like his whole journey because Octavia Spencer, because
this movie is like really let you know how it
feels about things, like Octavia Spencer literally says to his face,
you are a good man, and then he does that.

(43:48):
It was dissonant. I agree, it just felt like a
plot device, almost hum Anyway, it's not the biggest deal,
but I was I always like, I that's another moment
that I forget about, where you're just like, couldn't he
have like found some evidence instead of like undercutting that
whole Because I thought that was like a really good
job by Michael Stillbar too. I wonder what the Daily

(44:09):
Bark had to say about it. I don't remember. Unfortunately,
I'm going to guess positive. But yeah, no, I had
the same thought. But this allows Strickland to like kind
of figure out that it was Eliza and Zelda who
had something to do with the Fishman being stolen. So
first he goes to Zelda's house to question her, and

(44:31):
her husband tells Strickland that it was Eliza who was
responsible for this, you know, the stealing of the fishman.
So then Strickland goes to Eliza's but she and Giles
have already left to go release the Fishman into the water.
But Strickland figures out where they're headed because they're going

(44:52):
to the docks, and he goes after them. Cut to
the docks, Eliza and the fishermen are saying goodbye, Strickland
shows up. He shoots the fish man, he shoots Eliza,
but then the Fishman uses his healing powers to heal himself.
He slashes Strickland's throat, and then he takes Michael Shannon

(45:15):
line that you're like, he's really delivering this line that
you're like what he's like you are? I can't wait
for Tann out of time. Do you remember how Michael
Shannon was literally an eight mile Sometimes I just forget
how deep his filmography is. No, I don't remember that
in Kangaroo Jack and eight Mile. What a career? Wow?
I know what can't he do? His early filmography is

(45:38):
really funny because he was just in like he all
over the place, CEC Will Be Demented, Pearl Harbor, Vanilla Sky,
eight Mile, Kangaroo Jack, Bad Boys Too. He was in
a movie Whoa because he calls they have bony Man.
What a legend. Wow. It's a short film, but he
played Walt the Sam bony Man. WHOA. I wonder if

(45:59):
that's about a man and who gets bitten by a
radioactive zamboni. That would be really wait wait, hold on,
we have to collaborate INNA's because it gets turned into
like an ice situation. Well yeah, oh my gosh wow.
I was just looking at his filmography to just confirm
that it was in fact him and that I remember

(46:21):
seeing an eight years ago. Yeah, I guess you're right.
Was um okay? So Strickland is murdered by the fish
Man and then the fishman takes Eliza's limp body and
jumps into the water with her. She seems to be dying,
but he turns the scars on her neck into gills,

(46:43):
and then she seems to come back to life and
she's healed. Although so one interpretation is that she's alive
and they live happily ever after underwater together. Another interpretation
is that that's kind of like a fantasy and she
actually dies, kind of like how Pan's Labyrinth ends, where

(47:06):
the main character in that movie dies, but then she's
kind of like reborn as this princess in Labyrinth World. Um. Anyway,
so different interpretations of the end, but that is how
the movie ends. So let's take another break and we
will come back to discuss. And we're back. I just

(47:34):
had a during the break, I you know, dipped in
my little pool, my little tank of water, and I
had a little bath, the tank of water, the tank
of water. Okay, where shall we begin? I would if
it's a city, I would like to start with talking
about I think the main criticism surrounding this movie that

(47:56):
is extremely value. I even trying to like put my
self in brain. I remember this being discussed when the
movie came out, but it was not central discussion at all,
And so I want to talk a little bit about
how disability is portrayed in this movie. As always, we're

(48:18):
interested if, if, if we have listeners with disabilities that
would like to share their perspective. I've seen kind of
a wide variety of takes on it, but I mean
the first the first issue is one that we've discussed
on the show before, which is, you know, Eliza does
not speak, she has a disability, as she's not played

(48:41):
by a disabled actor. So this is something that happens
all the time. I feel like it's very often presented
as like, obviously there are many, many, many talented disabled
actors that would have been more appropriate for this role.
But I feel like instead there's I read a lot
to this effect, and we've just gotten on the show before.

(49:02):
There's sometimes like disabled parts are taken by able bodied
actors as like a challenge and it's kind of an
Oscar It's been sort of framed as like an Oscar
baity thing to do, definitely, and I think that in
the case of Sally Hawkins, that's um exactly how it

(49:24):
played out right, And I think a lot of people
have commented on her good performance. I don't know, like,
I don't know if that's the right word, but I mean,
I do think that she does a good job in
the movie. But although a lot of people have also
pointed out that it's pretty obvious that she is not
fluent or even very good at sign language, I was

(49:47):
also having trouble confirming if she uses American Sign language.
I saw some people saying that the sign that she
uses in the movie is not entirely a s L,
but like some of it is. But then other people
have confirmed that she is using a s L. I
don't know enough about it to know firsthand, so I

(50:10):
couldn't confirm if that is the type of sign she's using.
I was also, yeah, I was saying criticism around it,
but I couldn't find specificity. So if there's if there's
anyone listening that could answer that, I mean, I'm very curious.
I just wasn't. Yeah, I wasn't able to find it. Yes,
So that's the first problem of and again we've talked
about this a lot on the show, of a non

(50:33):
disabled actor being cast to play a character who is disabled,
And I think that is one of the problems because
basically everyone who worked on this movie is an able
bodied person and as far as like consultants being brought in,
that didn't really happen. So it was like I wasn't

(50:56):
I was looking for any indication that that had happened,
and it had, which is I mean, I think for
in particular, I was pretty surprised at that seems like
a really glaring mistake. You would have thought, right, So
I'm pulling this from a huff Post piece entitled how

(51:20):
the Shape of Water makes People with disabilities feel less
human by at least Juan Shell. It basically says that
huff Posts reached out to Fox Searchlight to ask whether
there were any disabled consultants involved with the film, and
a representative of the film said that, like basically in

(51:42):
response that question said that to a s L coaches
were involved during the production, but that appears to be
the only consultants so right, which this seems like a
pretty clear cut case of um, there should be that,

(52:02):
like you, you would need to have consultants involved from
the very very beginning, not just as it pertains to
working with actors, which is definitely important. And it sounds
like maybe Sally Hawkins didn't have enough time to even
get to where she needed to be on that front, um,
which I wasn't aware of because I don't I don't

(52:25):
know as L, and so I that seems really frustrating
for someone who who does speak as L to see
it presented in this kind of like sloppy way, which
I'm not saying that's the fault of the consultants, who knows,
but it's like, you know, if del Toro wants to
have a disabled protagonist, great, but even you need to

(52:45):
bring in a consultant or even better, a co writer
who can shape that story from the jump and not
just you know, the script shouldn't be locked without consulting,
like yes, And because that did not appear to happen,
there are some issues with the way disability is represented

(53:09):
in the movie. Um. Yeah, there seemed to be a
lot of conflicting feelings from a lot of members of
the disabled community, because on one hand, there's like, oh,
you know, we're seeing um, a disabled woman with sexuality
on screen that never happens. But then there's a whole
a lot of other criticism that we will get into. Um.

(53:29):
I would recommend everyone read a piece by Elsa yes,
Johnson Henry, I'm I'm not sure if pronounced that correctly. Yes. So,
she's a speculative fiction author and editor who is legally
blind and deaf. She wrote a piece about this movie

(53:50):
entitled I Belong Where the People Are Disability in the
Shape of Water on tour dot com t o R
dot com tours my pub the publisher of the Hot
Dog book famously Oh my gosh, no way, wow, congrats.
So she wrote this great piece and I want to
pull some quotes from it. I have. I feel like

(54:15):
I basically copy pasted the assay into my notes because
it's really really like thoughtful and comprehensive. It's great, for sure.
Let's exchange quotes, shall we see it? So? The first
one I wanted to share is this Elsa says, quote
the first time in years that I have seen a
disabled woman sexually desired and indeed sexually active and loved

(54:38):
in a film is by a monster. Monster. Hood and
disability are an extra. And oh no, this word, I
never can say it. And inextricably inextricably yeah it's it's
you gotta really enter it with coxtricably inextricable. Killed it. Wow? Okay,

(55:00):
so inextricably linked in our genre. Characters like Smoke are
barely human. Smoke from Star Wars are barely human, their
faces marred by scars, which signal that they are evil.
Disability and disfigurement are tied together. As one, Elsa's scars
on her neck have been read as gills by some,

(55:20):
a hint that her disability is in fact monster hood
all on its own unquote. So that's and this is
something that we've talked about a fair share on the podcast,
especially when it comes to horror movies, because horror is
a genre that it's very very guilty of this. But
it's not limited to horror movies, like you know that

(55:42):
genre at all. This is something that spans across genre
where disability or disfigurement will be linked to a villainous behavior. So, um,
that's kind of like where the movie, and it depends
on how you interpret things, but like, this is definitely

(56:03):
one kind of reading of the film. Yeah, I want
to share a quote from that essay as well, because
I I do think that it's like the core issue
because I and I do want to, like, yeah, acknowledge
that a lot of what I was reading around this movie,
and I think we should talk about this more in
detail when we get to talking about sex anyways, But

(56:26):
you know, having uh, like, I think that it's Elsa Shenson,
Sir Johnson Henry who wrote that like she had never
seen a mainstream movie where a woman with a disability
was centered as being sexually desirable, as like initiating sex
and like, which I think is kind of a cool

(56:48):
element of their relationship is it is very motivated by Eliza.
Kristin Lopez wrote a piece in The Hollywood Reporter in
which this is like a a big talking point of
her piece of like the sexuality of disabled characters and
how it's very rare to see. So yeah, but yeah
we can. We'll we'll cover that more when we talk

(57:11):
about sex, babyc sex. Let's talk about fish sex baby. Um.
But I just want to share that, Yeah, Like the
the use of Eliza's disability seems to be strictly not strictly,
but a lot of it is used as a metaphorical
purpose versus just representing a disabled character in the world,

(57:34):
which is patronizing. As many writers as have um mentioned,
you know, I I'm not saying that I think that
del Toro intended it that way, but it's definitely you know,
he presents this movie as a fairy tale, and fairy
tales very often do this kind of stuff, So I

(57:54):
want to share a little more of elsa stunts and
Henry's as a that you know, sort of lands on
like it's ultimately you know, Eliza isn't loved by a
member of her own species, and the only way that
she's able to find acceptance is through possibly dying and

(58:15):
definitely being with someone who is not other own species.
So she writes, quote, society says that disability makes us lesser,
makes us uneven humans. The worst of humanity looks at
me with my one clouded eye and my one hearing year.
It looks at me and says, I am half of
what I could be. This isn't a projection. I don't
feel less than whole. I've had people tell me that
I am lesser than them, that they couldn't imagine what

(58:36):
it would be to inhabit my body, that they would
rather die than experience what it is like to live
in a disabled body unquote. And it does feel to me.
And this came up in a couple of essays that
I read that Eliza says that directly in that speech
that she gives to Giles of why she loves the

(58:59):
fish span so much, is like she says, he doesn't
I'm paraphrasing, but it's something like he doesn't know what
I lack. So she's explicitly saying that she views her
own disability as her lacking something versus that being this
is the messaging that society has projected at her her

(59:20):
whole life. But it's like the way that it's written
makes it canonically she views her own disability as being deficient,
a lack she also, I think in in the movie
Eliza says that she is incomplete, which, again, if you
had consultants disabled consultants on the movie, a line of

(59:43):
dialogue like that, I don't think would be in the movie.
It would be Yeah, Eliza's feelings about her disability, I
think would be framed very differently if it were coming
from the perspective of actual disabled people, who would have
just a more informed perspective on how disabled people view

(01:00:08):
and feel about their disabilities. So there's a quote from
h writer named Amy Lowe in CBC Shout Out Canada
um that I thought sort of like tied that together
pretty well. She said, quote I found that really unfortunate
because it sort of reproduces the stereotype that nonverbal people

(01:00:29):
can't express themselves in a way that's actually comfortable or
natural for them. And then it also reproduces the stereotype
that disability is like a cage unquote. So I think
that the I mean, alliwes this whole storyline kind of
lends itself to viewing her disability as a metaphorical storytelling
tool rather than an element of who she is as

(01:00:51):
a person. And the other moment that seems to draw
the most criticism we've already talked about briefly, which is
the like old Hollywood flashback thing, which I would hazard
to guess was like del tour. I feel like, you know, like,
oh tour is often like romanticized past Hollywood stuff by
a lot, and it's probably just like, oh, wouldn't this

(01:01:13):
be cool? But the text of that scene is that
Eliza is sitting across from the fish man, overcome with
how much she loves him, and then for one scene
she quote unquote sheds her disability and is able to
use her voice to sing, and they dance and like

(01:01:34):
it's this like fantasy sequence, but the core of the
fantasy is like romanticizing her shedding her disability instead of
I feel like you can still have that same unmemorable
sequence of them in a way that doesn't right exactly
like it without it romanticizing like, oh she would be

(01:01:55):
I feel like it implies that she would be so
much happier if she could speak. But yeah, and and
that was on. I mean, that's not something that occurred
to me the first time I saw the movie, but
it's like absolutely true. And again, like you're saying, like
if there had there been consultants or co writers and
during the writing process, I think that that would have

(01:02:16):
been a very very easy thing to catch. And again,
like another good reason to cast actors who have the
disabilities that you're portraying on screen, because then, I mean,
that's not to say that like because oftentimes when actors
try to advocate for themselves, they're labeled as difficult and

(01:02:37):
then they might get fired. But at least you would
have yet another perspective saying, well, that doesn't really jive
with how people actually feel about things. So and I
want to believe that, like del Toro is an empathetic
enough filmmaker to be able to receive that, right. I'm
just fort in my mind, but I'm like, I feel

(01:02:59):
like he would be up to I just am like,
but it's it is so so wild that I feel
like this is you know, it's it's theotour thing again,
you know where it's just like some people, no matter
how iconic incredible, need to be given notes, and people
don't give them to them because they're um special directors,

(01:03:21):
too many yes men out there. Um. I would argue
that the way the movie ends is also just kind
of very telling of the representation of disability in this story, because,
as I often tell my screenwriting students who, the way
a movie ends does a lot to say how this

(01:03:44):
movie feels about like the story it was telling, or like,
you know, the kind of the theme of the movie
is usually very clearly communicated in the final images and
final moments of the movie. So like, what you're trying
to say with your narrative usually is like very clear

(01:04:05):
at the very end. So what happens at the end
is Eliza is well maybe dies but also maybe is
turned into a fish person and then lives hapfully ever
with her fish boyfriend under the sea, So, um, let's
see do let's go with that interpretation, which, going back

(01:04:28):
to Else's piece in Towards dot Com, she kind of
comments on how the end suggests that like disabled people
should go and be with their own kind and says quote,
I wish that I could just say, well, that's fantasy
and move on, but I can't. Not when I've literally

(01:04:50):
never seen a movie in which a disabled woman is
desired by a non disabled partner. Not when I know
that my body is seen as less than desirable. Not
and I know that subconsciously this film it means she
deserves a freak like her, not a human like her unquote.
And then, um, just to share one more quote from uh,

(01:05:11):
this piece also says quote, The conflict for me is
here that, on one hand, I have always known in
my soul that able bodied people see me as half
of them, that they see me as less than whole,
which is why I hate that in media such as this,
we can only be desired by those who don't know
any better unquote. So the way the movie ends, the

(01:05:36):
whole romance between Eliza and the fishman, these are the implications. Yeah,
it's the ending. And also this is kind of a
movie that, like I don't always remember how it ends,
and like, after not saying it for a couple of years,
I was like, oh yeah, oh no, they die like
it's it kind of reminds me. I feel like it

(01:05:58):
that is a atronizing ending for a disabled character, and
it also is giving me a little like another like
classic tragic fairy tale element where like the Little Mermaid
turns to foam at the end of the story, where
it's just it also feels like there's maybe a whiff
of misogyny mixed in there as well, which is again

(01:06:24):
like a confusing thing to happen in a movie that
seems to be really wanting to present itself, and the
way it was marketed and the way it was like
Awards seasoned, was as a progressive reimagining of a fairy tale.
So if that is the tack you're taking in promoting
your movie, um, a glaring kind of turning turning away

(01:06:49):
when it comes to disability, is I think, you know,
kind of irresponsible and worthy of further discussion because it is,
I mean, and we've been guilty of this in like
the early backdel cast days. Disability is so often left
out of film criticism and discussion, and for a movie
that's marketing itself as like, you know, because this movie

(01:07:12):
does try to, and I think successfully in many cases,
address a lot of society's prejudices. And I think it does.
Think it's saying something about disability, but it rings patronizing
because it's like, oh, look, she got accepted by somebody,
and like by a big old fish, and you're like, well,

(01:07:32):
fuck you kind of and but like this this movie does,
I guess I'm kind of transitioning into a different bucket
of discussion. This movie does at least touch on racism
because this is happening in nineteen sixty two, around the
Civil rights era that we see an example of just
in general, I mean, like people of color in this

(01:07:54):
movie are treated as lesser than and then most explicitly
in that scene in the pie shop that just all
of a sudden, like what I mean, I'm not I
don't even mean this as a criticism, but like it
turns out like Pieman is evil, um like really abruptly
like he because we've just seen him as like, hey,
welcome to the pie shop. I'm that hot guy who

(01:08:16):
sells pies. And then it was like, I'm homophobic, and
then he's like, and I'm racist, and then the scene
is over and it's I mean nineteen sixty two, and
now there are certainly people like that. I was just like, whoa, whoa,
and then the scene is over and it doesn't come back. Um,
I have so here here are my thoughts on the matter.

(01:08:37):
So a lot of people point out when discussing this
movie that like, yeah, it's it's an inclusive movie where
you know, you have Uh, the protagonist is a disabled woman. Um,
her best friend is a black woman, her other best
friend is a queer man. And I think the movie

(01:08:59):
is suggesting it like these are people who were on
the fringes of society in the sixties. Like these are
marginalized people who became friends because of the kind of
this common ground they share of being marginalized by you know,
like white, able bodied just had to row Michael Shannon patriarchy.

(01:09:20):
Mr Michael Shannon in the case of this movie specifically
Michael Shannon. Yes, so that you have this like quote
unquote diverse cast of main characters. However, I felt that
the way some of these characters were portrayed and characterized
in the movie felt like it was leaning into some

(01:09:43):
stereotypes where if you look at Zelda played by Octavia Spencer,
I mean, she's doing an incredible job and she's you know,
doing as much as she can with what she's given.
But I like this very much falls into the like
black friends supporting a white protagonist, and also I would argue,
like the sasty black friend stereotype. Yeah, I think that

(01:10:05):
this movie like attempts to give her a little bit
more characterization with a subplot with her husband, which I
feel like doesn't really cut cut the mustard in that case,
Like the only background you're going to be given is
that she appears to be in an emotionally volatile relationship
with her husband. Um right, Like that's all you're going

(01:10:26):
to give us for a background for a character that,
as you're saying, like does not as aggressively as many movies,
but does fall back on some tropes. This movie feels
very like because I mean because it was released early
into the Trump years, and you can like I can't
quite like put my finger on like how but you

(01:10:49):
can you can feel that right in a way that
like I don't even need to be like disparaging towards
the filmmakers, but it's just like they're trying to be inclusive.
They want to like make a statement, but it's like
not really quite there, but they really think they're doing something.
It just it feels like a lot of early into

(01:11:09):
the Trump years media, especially because this was trying to
say everything at once and kind of saying not much
and not executing it very well or very like intersectionally.
Um right, because like this movie came out in but
it would have been shot, you know, over the course
of many months, if not like a full year before that.

(01:11:32):
It would have been written and developed probably a couple
of years even before that. So like but by the
time the movie comes out, Del Toro is like speaking
with specificity about this where um, I think he presented
also because um as like a story with parallels to
the immigration experience, he said in an interview for this,

(01:11:56):
which I think was like a lot of what he
was touching on and was had to do with his
personal connection to the story as well as you know,
the really clear parallels between old monster movies Creature from
the Black Lagoon specifically obviously, but so he says, quote,
I feel it as an immigrant that has been received
by this country, but I feel there is a sort

(01:12:18):
of the demonization of the other very present. I needed
to talk about the beauty of the other. So the
way that he talks about this movie, I think he
leans more on Doug Jones Fishman versus Eliza and Zelda
and Giles, which I think is perhaps part of the

(01:12:39):
reason that they are kind of softly stereotyped in some ways,
where it's like the focus is we want the audience
to empathize with the Fishman because he represents the monster
the other that has been used throughout cinematic history. To
look at me saying cinematic is happy birth the Yeah, mensa,

(01:13:02):
it's kind of not. But and I get and I
and I like it. Seems like it was at the
core of his mission to take this monstrous quote unquote
character that has been used as coding for a lot
of marginalized groups over the years, and to flip that

(01:13:22):
and use this group of marginalized characters who see that
in the Monster empathize with him and encourage audiences to
do the same. So he's encouraging people to look at
media from the past a little more critically, even if
you love it, always supportive of that like, I feel
like I understand what his core mission is. I think

(01:13:44):
it's like a good, righteous mission to have that fits
into his body of work really well, because you could
even you could argue that for a fucking hill boy, right,
Like this is like a through line in his work
that I think is really cool. But it's like we're
saying it's it's in the execution of like that message
is kind of ring a little hollow if you're falling
back on trope for the marginalized characters that are like

(01:14:07):
surrounding the fish guy, right, Because like, again going back
to Zelda, you have, like I feel like she's pretty
one dimensional, and then the kind of one attempt to
give her a little bit more dimensionality is with this
like subplot with her husband, which also just ends up
playing into stereotypes of kind of like a deadbeat husband.

(01:14:28):
It gives her this moment of empowerment over him because
like because she stands up to him at the end,
but like she has a girl boss moment. But that's
also the scene where that happens is the first time
we are like really meeting that character. So ultimately it's
hard to like I'm rooting for Zelda to have more
of a character to work with, but it's like the

(01:14:49):
movie makes it hard for you to be like woo
who in that moment because we've never seen this guy before.
We just about him in passing. And then the other
black characters in the movie are either you only get
tiny glimpses of them, you really learn nothing about them,
and it feels like a lot of times they're just
used to show that another character is racist, or there's

(01:15:11):
that there's a weird scene where Eliza is watching a
newscast about civil rights protests and like violence enacted against protesters,
and Giles just like turn that off, and it's like, what,
why is that? Why is I was kind of curious
what the message was behind that, because I'm just like, right,

(01:15:35):
you know, I would hear the writers out, but I'm
just like, why include that? Like it just just really
I think that that was just like again, a really
lazy like way to remind you, like the era that
this is taking place. And but it makes Giles seem
very dismissive towards the struggles of black Americans, which is
doesn't appear to be canonical to his character at all,

(01:15:56):
because later he is like fuck you to the home
a phobic racist, right. It just feels like a way
for the movie to acknowledge that that was what was
happening at the time this movie takes place, because a
lot of movies period pictures from that time or movies

(01:16:17):
that made in that time didn't acknowledge it. So it's
like this movie is like, we're acknowledging that this was
taking place, but it doesn't want to like engage with it.
Really it is. It does feel maybe this is like
closer to the Trump era movie thing where it's like
this movie I think has good intentions, but it's like
biting off more than I can chew, and it's trying

(01:16:39):
to like not like solve obviously, but it's like trying
to address every societal ill and like especially really something
that can be done in a two hour movie, especially
in the Michael Shannon character, because like, my god, literally patriarchy.
The guy, Yeah, he's racist, he's a misogynist. He wants
his wife to be silent during a sex scene that

(01:17:02):
is for some reason in the movie, also sexually harasses Eliza.
He's like one of those like America number one guys.
He like very clearly has a very fragile male ego.
He's very classist to the point where and I think
there's like interesting commentary here that like no one even
considers he's amazing at playing this role. Like Michel Shannon

(01:17:24):
as Patriarchy the Guy, he's very good at it. But
it's like, like we've been talking about on the show
four years now, beginning with Our Girl the Dragon Tattoo
episode question Mark, Like that's just kind of and I
and it's like, you know, I can like hear defenders
of this movie, which I have a lot of love for.

(01:17:44):
For the record, I chose it from my damn birthday movie.
I can hear defenders of this movie being like, well,
it's a fair it's a fairy tale, so the characters
tend to be a little broad. True, But like I
feel like, you know, kind of cherry picking, like what
we're subverting and what we're not. Patrio Archy the Guy
is just not an effective storytelling tool. I feel like
at this point that should be obviously maybe I mean,

(01:18:05):
but also I think that there was an element of
cathartic energy behind Patriarchy the Guy as a character early
in the Trump administration. Um only because I, in my opinion, Um,
this movie came out I think it came out post
Me Too, but was certainly produced Prey. But you know,

(01:18:26):
because there were not a ton of public discussions about
misogyny that were treated as culturally serious. Seeing patriarchy, the
guy taken down a peg and killed and blah blah blah,
like there was some sort of I feel like there
was a cathartic element to it at that time, but

(01:18:47):
now that things have moved on, it's just like, even
if it is a cathartic storytelling tool for some people,
I'm kind of over and honestly, like, I just don't
think it's a very effective way to make any commentary because,
like we've talked about a million times, it's far more
likely to experience, you know, discrimination of many kinds from

(01:19:08):
a guy that is just kind of a guy. And
that is the problem. And that's like why prejudice is
so proudicious, because it's just cooked into people that you know,
it's not like, I mean, there are you know, bigoted
supervillains out there, unfortunately, and it seems like there's more
all the fucking time, But it just doesn't feel like

(01:19:30):
the most powerful storytelling tool to wrap up every single
prejudice in one guy and then kill that guy and
be like we did um yeah, yeah, I was. I
was certing to say that, I think the most the
way that his characters is or maybe not even his
you can't even attribute this to his character specifically, But

(01:19:51):
the most effective use of commentary when it comes to
people's prejudices in this movie is that no one even
suspects Eliza as being the fishman heister like Steeler because
of her like class and position, and no one even

(01:20:14):
considers that it could be you know, like a cleaning
person could pull this off sort of thing. But other
than that, yeah, I didn't. I thought that was like,
that was one of the more effective Yeah, that's what
I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah. Everything else was like, yeah, this
just feels too cartoonish. Yeah, like it's it's very broad,
I think. Also, I just wanted to single out because

(01:20:35):
Michael Shannon represents so much in this world, I just
wanted to like single out a few things that I
found particularly evil about him. He is openly racist to
Zelda's character, like treats her as if she is like uneducated,
to the point where she is not able to understand
what is going on. Around her, or that she couldn't

(01:20:57):
possibly understand what the people of higher class who are
mostly white like could be doing. It's like incredibly patronizing.
He fetishizes Eliza for her disability and patronizes her for it,
and you know, attempts to like he he assaults multiple

(01:21:20):
people throughout the movie. Um, I would say that that
sex scene with his wife, I mean, it's very fucking gross,
but I think it also like really tiptoes up to
the fucking line of fucking marital rape because he's like
bleeding on her face and she's like, can you not
bleed on my face? And he's like shut up. Didn't

(01:21:40):
need that scene, But I guess we just need this
to be the most evil guy in the entire world.
He represents America or whatever America's were on in Corpse.
I don't disagree, but like I don't need to see
him you know, harass, you know, like sexually mistreat his
own wife. And also also she did this thing that
did you catch this? She like smel his hand before

(01:22:02):
she would have sex with him, which I think it
means to imply that he is a serial cheater and
comes home smelling like vagina. I didn't make that connection,
but I can see it. It's just that marriage. I
feel for his his wife. I feel for that character.
We don't get to know over very well. Um. But yeah,

(01:22:22):
like I just want to single out especially like his
fetishizing Alliesa's disability. I just think it's like it really
grows certainly something that I know happens in the world.
But it just seems like again another like big issue
to like take a bite out of and then essentially
make no meaningful statement about outside of like this is wrong,

(01:22:45):
which is more than a lot of movies do. But
it's just I don't know, Yeah, movies that try to
attack every single um problem in the world. There, it's
just there's not the bandwidth. I guess not in the
shape of water. Uh. Going on the continuing on that
line of thinking, I wanted to touch on queerness in

(01:23:06):
the movie, specifically when it comes to Giles's character Richard
Jenkins icon love him, love all of his cats. His
character's cats are I P the one r I P.
I forget what the cat's name was, but he just
like soantly. Yeah. He literally was like Richard Jenkins is

(01:23:33):
like the fishman ate my cat and the cat has
a name? Does that pass the back to the new dog,
ate my the new dog, ate my homework, the fish,
and ate my cat. I can't come to work today.
What was the cat's name? It was like it wasn't Sophocles,
but it was like something like that. Anyway, it was, yeah,
something like that. So Giles is a queer character, and

(01:23:55):
we see him be rejected. We see he's a lonely person.
He constantly talks about how lonely he is all the time,
and that's not coming from nowhere, you know, Like feelings
of isolation and loneliness are certainly something that a lot
of queer people have experienced throughout history. It's also implied
that he is a recovering alcoholic covering alcoholic, and that

(01:24:19):
he maybe was fired from his job, possibly for his alcoholism,
but also possibly for being gay. That's yeah, and that's
never made explicitly. Like his side quest, you get more
with Drials than with any other secondary character, but it's
still like doesn't land in a very satisfying way because

(01:24:39):
you're like, was he fired for? Like why even include
addiction issues? If? Like it just was confusing again, too much,
too much, biting off more than it can chew. Yes,
So for me, like to have your one queer character
in the movie where like the movie goes out of
its way to show him be rejected by crushed, and

(01:25:01):
that only happens to motivate his choice to help out
the straight protagonist and although like can we even call
her straight when her sexuality includes being attracted to fish people?
My point is I felt like his queerness was just
kind of used in the way that like racism and

(01:25:23):
like the acknowledgment of the civil rights movement is just
sort of like used to be like, well, yeah, we're
touching on these things. Yeah, we're being inclusive, but like
not meaningfully or not in a way that felt like
and only like tragically, like it's yeah, yeah, no one
gets a satisfying romantic Like all the relationships in this

(01:25:43):
movie like don't end very well because like Eliza and
the fish Man have it best and they die, uh,
like Giles gets rejected. Zelda gets like one up on
her emotionally volatile husband who doesn't respect her, but presumably

(01:26:03):
they are. She's still stuck in that marriage. Hard to say,
we know, really nothing's not like she's going to leave him.
It doesn't seem like no idea. I guess maybe the
only person who wins is Michael Shannon's wife because he dies,
Because he dies enough, she's free from him. But she
seems to really be into him and confused in a
confusing way. It seems like she well confusing. Yeah, it

(01:26:27):
just seems like relationship wise, um, it's all really sad
at the very bleak um. But yeah, that's that's kind
of all I had. Did you have anything else you
wanted to discuss? Um? I just wanted to quickly. I
mean we we sort of talked about it really quick.
But the fishman, I love him. I do think that

(01:26:50):
the criticism of like do we understand why these two
characters fall in love with each other outside of metaphorical purposes?
Not really, I would have to have seen more. Um.
I also think it's like kind of very like fantastical
and like whatever, turning one culture into like a monolith

(01:27:11):
to be like, oh, he's a South American god and
you're like what, um again? Like yet another of like
it's clear that you know Americans are mining this area
for oil. It's like the movie trying to comment on
another societal ill but but not really doing much with it,
glossing over it. Yeah, I do think that like the

(01:27:32):
way that the Fishman is characterized is generally pretty cool.
Like I know that he is supposed to be canonically
a movie monster, but I don't view him that way
because we are like encouraged to empathize with him so much. Um,
we know that he's been through a lot. We see,

(01:27:53):
you know, how brutally mistreated he is and that being
treated with compassion, and I really love him. I get
the issues surrounding the character. Um, but I thought it
was like he and Eliza, you know, they fuck and

(01:28:13):
we celebrate that, and that is that whole sexual relationship
felt to me like, you know, she initiated, which is cool.
You don't see that in a movie a lot. And um,
you know iconic that there's an Oscar winning fish sex movie.
That is really you can take that from something you
simply can't forget. I do. I love the female masturbation

(01:28:37):
is represented on screen because it rarely is as a
normal part of a morning routine. I love how horny
that character is and just to um and it is
normalized and it's normalized. And again shout out to Kristin
Lopez's peace in The Hollywood Reporter will link to it
as well. Um But Kristen writes about how disabled characters

(01:28:59):
and media are often presented as lacking sexuality or not
having any sexual desires, and that media about characters with
disabilities tends to focus on straight white men. So Shape
of Water presents kind of an interesting subversion to these
tropes because it focuses on a disabled woman and allows

(01:29:22):
her to be a very sexual being. So, you know,
I appreciate that. I appreciate a horny woman on screen.
I also liked that the movie didn't get like into
her past sex life, because I feel like that is like,
I don't know, I just this movie is so chaotically

(01:29:43):
trying to address everything that it's like, we don't really
know what her sexual past is, but we know that
like she lets when she's like interested, she's going to
let you know. And it seems like consent was above
the board. Again you're like, it's a fish bed, So
we don't know, but if it's felt, it felt like
there was some thought and care put into that. Yeah,
this movie is I don't know if it's if it

(01:30:06):
quite goes into my guilty pleasure category, but you know,
on the right on the right day and the right
mood shape of water. You know, it's it's it's a
movie that I'll turn on sure because the cast is
so good. The score also, that's like kind of out
of our purview, but I think the score is so beautiful.
With the fish and the egg, yes, it's I mean

(01:30:27):
it's a beauty. It's a deultura movie. It's like beautiful,
and the fishman hot loves eggs and sex and has
a thigh gap and really tight a little. But yeah,
So ultimately I would say that it does pass the
Backtel test, yes, in a way that but often don't

(01:30:49):
come across on the buttle on. It passes the Backtel
tests in a way that we don't often come across
because we are used to seeing like verbal spoken communication
and between characters of marginalized genders when it comes to
a movie passing. But for example, many scenes, well, actually

(01:31:09):
a lot of the conversations between Eliza and Zelda are
either about the fish man, Zelda's unappreciative husband, or Michael
Shannon's character. Um, so they talk about men a lot.
I think there are like isolated conversations where they are
you know where they are not talking about a man

(01:31:30):
um but communicating in a way that again, like we
don't often see on screen because we don't often see
sign language being used as as a way of communication. UM,
So just pointing that out that it's nice to see
representation of of the Bechtel test being passed via sign language. Yes, yeah,

(01:31:52):
I think that that is a rare pass. I also
wanted to shout out that there is um there are
two writers credited on this movie, obviously Girima del Toro,
but also Vanessa Taylor. She's written a ton she wrote
the Divergent movie, she wrote on the new Aladdin movie,

(01:32:14):
which was not her fault, ums Shape of Water, she
wrote on Game of Thrones, like she's you know, cool,
and she also this is they don't leave unless she
wrote pabaliology likes, well, look, she's what I'm saying is
I think that it is a net positive that you
know there that del Toro had a woman as a

(01:32:38):
co writer. So there you go. There is you know,
it's not just totally men men, men, men, men, men, men, men,
men across the board and that was a what is
the name of that start? Two and a half men.
I almost had two Broke Men two and a half men. Yeah,
that's the name of that show Men Men Men. Admit

(01:33:00):
that's like the theme song, is it. I've never watched
an episode Bravely, Oh well I had. Yeah, my my
grandfather would have that show on in the background sometimes.
And yeah, the theme song is just saying men like
twenty times. Very cool, very cool. Um, anyways, two broke Men,
let's write it. Um yeah, yeah, so let's let's go

(01:33:21):
to the let's hit the nipple scale, shall we. Let's
do it zero to five nipples. Based on looking at
the movie through an intersectional feminist lens for me, as
we've discussed the del Toro's intentions are clear. He wants
to He wants to subvert the traditional monster movie, especially
because there's been so much kind of like racist and

(01:33:46):
other prejudice coding of monsters in monster movies throughout history.
There is so I don't know if you can hear
this very European sounding siren because I'm in Amsterdam, barrack.
Um so cool. Sorry, that's had to be awesome. I

(01:34:09):
can't even hear it's so awesome. Yeah, sorry for for
whatever is happening. But um, yeah, the the the intentions
are clear, and it's clear that Garmo do Toro wanted
to make a progressive story that subverts a lot of
harmful tropes and he wanted to be inclusive in his narrative. Unfortunately,

(01:34:30):
the execution of a lot of these things just doesn't
quite land or hit the mark. You. You have various
ablest implications, you have kind of a lot of tropes
as it relates to race and queerness in characters. Just

(01:34:50):
a lot of things that again not executed very well,
which makes rating this tricky. Um because the intentions are good, Uh,
the execution isn't great. I guess I would give this
like two and a half nipples to me. It's one
of those like split on the middles. I agree with you. Yeah,
I'm gonna do two and a half as well, because

(01:35:13):
because of the reasons you are describing where it's like.
I do think that there was a lot of good
intentions behind this movie. I think, even five years later,
the kind of gaps in consulting the gap side gaps,
the fish thigh gap first of all, an attack, uh
fight or flight trigger activated. But yeah, like I just

(01:35:39):
a movie that had good intentions that bit off way
more than I could chew, and uh didn't do the
consulting necessary to attempt to chew question mark. Right. But
it's a sweet movie with it with a good intention,
and so I feel like split down the middle makes sense.
Who are you given your nipples too? I will give

(01:36:00):
one to Giles's Cats, one to Mrs Brown in the
movie Paddington, and I will give my half nipple. Oh no,
I want to give a nipple to Octavia Spencer because
she's incredible and she's often cast in roles that her

(01:36:22):
full potential is like, we don't we don't see her range.
We don't see what she's capable of as an actor
because many of the roles that she's cast in are
just kind of fish food if you will. Um, But
she's great. So I'll give her one of my nipples,
and then I'll give my half nipple to Mrs Brown

(01:36:45):
in Paddington. Okay, um, yeah, I'm gonna give all my
nipples to myself because it's my birthday. Oh my gosh,
happy birthday, Jamie. Do you have anything that you would
like to plug? I would like to plug my birthday.
I would like to plug. Um. Yeah, you know, listen

(01:37:08):
to Ghost Church listen a little listen A listen to
my other stuff and Cathy Lolita, mensa, all the all
the friends are here. I would say, priorder the hot
Dog book, but it's not possible yet. But oh believe
will I be harassing you about that? I would say,
mainly for a birthday present for me in advance. Just

(01:37:29):
remember to be kind and patient to me when I
inevitably don't shut the funk up about the Pinocchio Wars
in November. There's two Pinocchios coming out this year. I
think that it's I can already feel a real fixation
coming on, and uh, it's just gonna be something that's
gonna be a lot on my mind in the coming months.
So please bear with me as I really get into

(01:37:54):
There's so many Pinocchio adaptations, and I can feel myself
getting ready to watch maybe all of them. I want
to go into the Pinocchio Wars with eyes wide open. Um.
I mean, I want to be a true witness. Welcome
to the legal the legal observer for the Pinocchio Wars.
It's I'm on the sidelines and I'm keeping score. Wow,
Tom Hanks, geppetto versus, who's the other Geppetto. Wait, no,

(01:38:19):
I don't remember Geppetto, not because he's he's no, he's
Giminy turny Cricket. God, damn it, I don't remember. You're right.
Oh god, I'm going to have a meltdown. Was I
think it's like maybe a character actor that we don't
see very much, probably Doug Jones. Honestly, that would be iconic.
I would not forget. It's it's a it's a British

(01:38:42):
guy Garama del Toros Pinocchio versus Roberts a Mexasis. David Bradley.
David Bradley is Geppetto, He's filch In Harry Potter. Okay, alright,
well we gotta go. Yes. I can't wait for you
to enter the Pinocchio verse. Jamie, Happy birthday, Love you
so much and follow us, uh the the instagrams and

(01:39:07):
stuff Matreon. You're gonna wanna listen to that just off
the wall Matreon episode in which we attempted to talk
about shape of Water and we never got around to it.
Five dollars a month gets you tubonus episodes, merch at
t public dot com, slash the Epectel Cast, and with
that it's my birthday, so we have to go to
medieval times. Yeah yeah, bye bye

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