Shrek 2: The Five Year Anniversary Episode

It's the FIVE YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF THE BECHDEL CAST!!! Caitlin and Jamie celebrate with an episode on feminist masterpiece Shrek 2!!!

(This episode contains spoilers)

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Doll Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef and best
start changing it with the Bell cast. Somebody once told
me the world wrong one. I know it's the wrong Shrek,

(00:23):
but this this one also starts with a I feel
like a very dated banger, though the like accidentally is
pretty good. Who is that? Is that Counting Crows? Oh?
That is who? That sounds like I just I just
pulled that name out of my butt for the first

(00:45):
time in fifteen years. It's certainly not smash Mouse. Why
didn't they get to come back for Shrek too? I
think that's the most popular criticism of Counting Crows is
they're no smash Mouth. Yeah. I wonder if, like, maybe
this is just like Headcannon. But what if Shrek two

(01:05):
couldn't afford smash Mouth because Shrek one made smash Mouth
so famous. Oh and they spent so much money of
the Shrek to budget on did you see the pay
bumps that like the three leads Mike Myers and Eddie
Murphy so for the first movie, And I don't know
if they all got paid the same. But I think

(01:26):
it was like ballpark of like dollars for their voice
acting work on Shrek one. For Shrek too, that's so
much money, but I guess probably not a lot of
money to them, right. For Shrek two, their salaries got
bumped to ten million dollars. Oh my god, that is why,

(01:48):
especially because they only need to work for like fifteen
days in like a recording studio. It's not even like
they're not even on set. It's like not like wonder
Cameron Diaz retired. Also, yeah, the budget for this one
is like two and a half times what the first
one was made, but it looks exactly the same and

(02:08):
it's basically the same story. So wild. Wow, I didn't
know that. My favorite fun fact I learned about Shrek
two is that it was nominated for the Palm Day
or at It's like what hold the phone? I thought
French people had taste and I was wrong. Well I

(02:31):
didn't win. I wait, okay, let's find out who beat
Shrek two for the I mean it had to have
been a tight race, honey, Okay, I mean what came out?
What else came out in two thousand four spider Man
two two thousand four. Okay, Fahrenheit nine eleven beat Shrek
two for the Palm. I was what a bizarro year

(02:55):
at in can Wow? God? Okay, I was surprised it
was nominated for the OSCAR for the Best Animated Feature
because I feel like most of the Shreks were yeah, yeah,
that tracks, but the pompt are threw me for a loop.
Say wow, this is actually art. I was similarly baffled. Okay,

(03:18):
so listeners, this is not only our Shrek two episode
along awaited much requested people have been just knocking our
door down. Yeah we got, we got docks. The people
have been demanding for decades. When are you going to

(03:38):
cover Shrek too? So it's that episode. It's also our
five year anniversary episode. We've been doing the podcast for
five years. That is so will we're different and yet
we're the same. Yeah. I feel like we've really, like
any good relationship, we've grown together. The show is growned

(03:58):
with us. We got I mean, it's it is like, Wow,
I was thinking about like our first episode came out
and this was not intentional because we had the show
in the works anyways, But the show did end up
being released right after the election, like right after Yeah,
and what a journey it's been. What a journey it's been.

(04:22):
I feel like we've never not been in just like
cultural societal turmoil since the podcast is started, between like
that presidency and that now a World, yeah remember that
one and m and then also this pandemic, it's just been,

(04:42):
I mean, what a time. It really has been a
wild ride, like in in a in a I mean
not societally, maybe not in a good way, but I
feel like it ended up being a very specifically relevant
time to be having the conversations that we've I've been
trying to have on the show. And I don't know,

(05:03):
I'm proud of us and we have and we also
there's so much left to do. There's so much left
to do. I also, I think a great way to
track our growth was I listened to the Shrek one
episode yesterday, No and so that one perfect no notes

(05:26):
um that came out nearly four years ago, based almost
like four years to the date ago, so we were
like a year into doing the show. It was an
interesting listen. It's been a really long time since I've
listened back to an episode from that long ago. Yeah,
I avoid it. It was excruciating. Okay, so here here's

(05:50):
some things about the episode. Certainly we have demonstrably grown
as movie analysts, as feminists, as just havers of discourse, Like,
oh wow, our discussion was not very nuanced on the
Shrek one episode. We were using a lot of able
US language. Wait, we weren't nuanced in ten. I was

(06:14):
curious about that. I was like, because I know that
there's been so we've been educated and still have more
to learn about, Like we've we've been educated so much
by our listeners about language choices that we were making
four years ago that we're not anymore. Yeah, which is
like I'm listening to the old of this stuff. It
turns out we don't age well sometimes. Um. Also, I'm

(06:38):
doing a very nasally voice the entire time. And then
also why bursting into just like goofy voices for nine
of the episode. I don't know what I thought I
was doing or most of blacked out that because I
was just like, I don't remember you becoming a goofy
voice connoisseur. I was goofy voicing all over the place.

(07:02):
I don't know why I was making any of those choices. Also,
the episode was very short by our standards because it
was only it was like less than an hour long.
It was like fifty seven minutes long or something like that.
I feel like that's because we used to um, we
used to like rent studio time too, so we had
like more like restrictions on how long we could record.

(07:24):
Where now we're just existing in cyber baby, right, I'm
just sitting in my closet talking for two hours at
a time. We got time baby. That that is. It
is so bizarre to think about how much has changed
in the world, how much has changed with the show,
and so much of that is owed to our listeners
in our community and are amazing guests who also I

(07:46):
mean who also have educated us so absolutely and hopefully
you if you're a listener of the show, if you're not,
if this is oh what if this is your first
time listening to the show? I you know what? What if?
What if there's a Shrek to fan that's like, yes,
you know what, start now and don't look back, don't
listen to any earlier episodes, and certainly not the Shruk

(08:06):
one episode. Well you can, you can start listening like
two years ago. Yeah, I really feel like that's when
we started to hit our stride. Yeah, we really uh
came out of a fugue state and began having actual conversations. Look.
And also it's like, I feel like podcasting is so
different from when we started too, which is bizarre because

(08:28):
it's only bed five years, but it just feels like
it's grown and changed so much. Yeah, I don't know.
It's so bizarre because we we truly started this as
a pastime and now it's our full time job. Wow.
Look at that. If you had told twenty fourteen Caitlin
that in five or six years her full time job

(08:51):
and life and all that stuff would be a podcast,
Caitlin would be like, what are you talking about? I
don't even listen to podcasts. I don't like them, blah
blah blah. I would have been like, what like Cereal?
I don't know like there, because that used to be
famously the only podcast that anyone ever said it might
have been the only one. It's impossible to know. I

(09:13):
feel like it was like all TV recaps and Cereal
This American Life or was that a radio show? What's
the difference? I don't even radio? And then they were
I'm still explaining to my mom with the differences, and
I don't really know, um, but it was. I mean, look,
I I feel like especially shows that have been on

(09:34):
for as long as ours have, it's like, it's it
would be very kind of fucked up if it was
the same exact same show as we started it. We're like, yeah,
we haven't grown and we haven't changed. Yeah, so well,
the Bechtel cast came of age and it's still coming
of age. Wow is this I was going to say,
just like Shrek two, It's not really a coming of

(09:56):
age story at all. It's just Shrek one with different
a lot of elements moved around, right, but and then
the same like theme and like message, but not as
effectively done is the first movie? Question? One? Thing is
just the opposite of the first movie. I I guess

(10:16):
I didn't remember that much about Shrek two because I'm like,
this is just Shrek one, except Shrek one wasn't nominated
for a Palm Day or I don't think, let me check,
I would guess. No. Here was my brilliant observation as
I was watching Shrek two. Is that to me, it's
the family friendly version of the movie get out? Wow? Okay, Okay,

(10:39):
I see that. I see that. Which then when I
when I was reading the scholarly journal Wikipedia, the article
about Shrek two, I learned that screenwriter and co director
Andrew Adamson based the plot of Shrek two off of
guests Who's coming to Dinner? I did know that, right,

(11:00):
which is a similar premise as well. So Shrek to
just a more poorly executed family friendly version. Uh yeah,
you know. The message is very I think intended well,
quite hit or mess. Indeed, However, when this movie came

(11:21):
out in two thousand four, So it came out May nine,
two thousand four, that's two days after my eighteenth birthday,
did you go? I did go to see in theaters,
probably multiple times if I remember correctly. It was also
like within a few days of my high school graduation,
so I was like it was a celebratory May for me,

(11:45):
and the most important event being the release of Shrek two. Obviously,
So I I really liked this, but I thought it
was funny when I was like eighteen years old. Um,
I did then it on DVD right when it came
out on DVD. I still own it on DVD. I know, incredible,

(12:07):
but I have not seen this movie for probably well
over a decade. I I probably stopped watching it in
like two thousand six. I would guess, Okay, what's your
relationship with Shrek too? I didn't see Shrek two when
it came out, which is kind of bizarre because I
would have been like the exact right age to really

(12:30):
eat it up. But I think, after we've talked about
this on the show before, my mom didn't like gross things,
and she did not like farts, and so she was like,
my little girl is not going to see a movie
where there's farting, farting, farting all day. Um, So I
think I would have seen this movie, probably at someone's
house at some point. I don't remember. Like, I wasn't

(12:54):
a big I was a late Shrek bloomer, I feel like,
and when I came into my Shrek nous, I really
came in hard. But I didn't come into my shrekness
until college, and then I started getting naked and painting
myself like Shrek. I got into there's like I mean,

(13:15):
and I feel like a lot of our listeners already
are familiar with the online Shrek culture that exists. You
sold Shrek nudes right to raise money for a planned
parenthood I did. There's a bunch of my nudes just
still out there. You know, who knows who's got them?
Hard copies? Why did I do hard copies? Yes, all

(13:35):
hard copies, and I snail mailed them to people. That's
when I worked at Playboy, and I used their nice
magazine printers to print my Shrek nuds, which did feel exciting. Yeah.
Why did I choose to do hard copies is something
that I think about a lot. I think it was.
I think I was like, oh, this will be harder

(13:55):
for people to disseminate it if I don't like email
my nudes to them, I I think, which is true.
I mean, they've never resurfaced. But I also am haunted
by the idea of like these little haunted paintings, you know,
like these little cursed naked Jamie's hiding in people's closets.
Because I'm like, I don't think that they're on display.

(14:17):
But what if they are. That's even more bizarre. What
if people like framed them and hung them up? They
were sent in frames? I said, them with frames? God,
that was that was pre vctil cast. I don't know,
there's I can't vouch I cannot vouch for for her.
Um and what oh, And then I wanted to plug

(14:41):
the other big Shrek thing I participated in called Shrek Retold. Yeah,
it's it's a completely shrek Head fan animated version of
the first movie that came out I think at the
end of teen Oh, I just oh. It has over
eight million views on YouTube poly cow. But basically, like

(15:04):
ninety artists were given one minute of Shrek to reproduce
however they saw fit and I got I got to
do a minute of it and guess what they're doing
Shrek too and I did it again. You Oh my goodness,
it's so exciting, so long winded way of saying I
love Shrek, but I hadn't seen Shrek to and also

(15:27):
a long time. I feel like I really stuck to
one is the classic one is on the A five
list of a hundred best movies of all time. That
is wild. I'm not shifting you. I was like, I
was like, that sounds like a joke, but it is.
I can think of at least five hundred movies that
are better than Shrek one. Uh you know, I you

(15:50):
say that, and yet Shrek one is genuinely really good.
It was nominated for Okay, it was what shouldn't have
been nominated for Best a Dad Did Screenplay. I don't
you know. I wos to say yeah, but I feel
like it would. I would probably stand for it more
if not for all the very dated references in it.

(16:13):
Oh absolutely, I mean it's the early two thousands energy
coming off of both of these Shrek movies is um frustrating.
I just meant, like, story wise and message wise, I
feel like it has a lot going for It's fair
and I like that it was a product of spite um,
which is always a fun story. Mr. Former Disney was like,

(16:38):
I'm Mr dream Works now and I hate Disney, so
I'm gonna make Shrek get them. He genuinely. I mean, like,
make no mistake, We're a thoroughly anti Jeffrey Kathenberg podcast.
He's currently trying to like influence homelessness policy in Los Angeles.
He's a fucking loser, so not vouching for him. I

(17:00):
just appreciate it's it can be a beautiful thing. I
can't well should we should we dive into Shrek to
the recap and go from there. Yeah, we never said
what the podcast was Oh my gosh, you're You're right. No,
I guess we should. Yeah, this this could be someone's
first episode. This is a loose one. This is a

(17:20):
loose One's very okay. Don't expect us to be at
our discourse best. We're basically on vacation right now. Consider
us Shreks butthole. It's loose, it's flapping around, it's farting.
I didn't see it coming. I love it, honestly me either,
because I usually don't do like fart humor. But there

(17:44):
it is. You just called treks but lose, Well is
it not? I don't think it's tight. I don't know.
I guess. I guess I hadn't, but I don't know.
I don't know the guy. I don't know the guy.
Have you ever been on Shrek four D where they
universal least the farts in your Universal Studios? I sure have. Yeah,
they changed it to Kung Fu Panda, but they're oh

(18:05):
and also they're taking Shrek out of Universal Studios. I
think that they're like, Shrek is irrelevant. Isn't that sad?
That is sad? Isn't there a fifth Shrek movie coming out? Though?
Or did that get shelved or something. It better still
be coming out. I don't know. I think that they're
they're absolute goofs to get rid of. No Shrek five

(18:26):
is still oh yeah, let me, I'm googling right now.
I don't know. I don't know. It's kind of up
in the air. It's his t b A. Eddie Murphy
said it was coming out in he was. Didn't happen
that came and went Eddie Murphy. Oh god, Okay. There's
a screen Rant article entitled Shrek five Everything we Know

(18:49):
about the movie so far that was published or at
least updated July one, which was only a few months ago.
But too many words to read. And you know we
never Oh my god, I guess. I guess time will
tell if Shrek five ever comes out. I mean, that's

(19:13):
very That makes me so sad. They better anyway. The
Bechtel Cast is our show in which we that we've
been doing for five years that we just forgot how
to start. On this show, we examine movies from an
intersectional feminist lens. Most movies don't fare very well. We

(19:36):
use the Bechtel test simply as an inspiration. We were
inspired by the Bechtel Test, and that is where the
name comes from. That's where the general premise of the
show comes. But if you've been listening for the past
five or however many years, you know that the show
is so much more. Thanks for staying with us. Thank

(19:57):
you truly, especially after that Shrek one episode Ike's I
would have how were you ca Caitlin silly voices? I
want to go back now and listen. I'm like, what
does that even me? Wait? Can you do it? Can
you tell me what the Bechtelt test is in in
the voice? Absolutely not, I will never um. But the

(20:22):
Bechdel test is a media metric created by queer cartoonist
Alison Bechtel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace Test. Our version
requires that two people of a marginalized gender have names
and speak to each other about something other than a
man for at least two lines of dialogue, and ideally

(20:45):
it's a meaningful, narratively relevant conversation. I did not remember
to pay attention if Shrek to passes the Bechtel test
or not, I leave it the light past. Usually listeners,
I mean, we've been doing this for five years. We
usually wait until the end of the episode to have

(21:06):
this discussion. But again, it's loose today, We're yeah, we're
Shrek's asked today, we're loose, loose, loose. No, it does pass, okay, okay,
so yeah, well we'll talk about it later, I guess
yeah at the end. Wait, hold on, hold on. I
just went to very because I think that there is
a like single exchange between Fiona and the Fairy Godmother

(21:29):
that passes that isn't about Shrek, and then I think
another one between her and her mother there, but it's
like these are two lined exchanges. But anyways, I just
went to Bechtel test dot com to check my work
beautiful and the comments are so funny. Um okay, So
it says that Shrek two passed the Bechtel test. Someone

(21:51):
named Renee disagreed, and here's her comment, mentioning Shrek goes
against the third CRITERIATL test. Like, damn, that's true. It's true.
Damn that's true. Well there you have it podcast over
so five years and the answer is, we don't really know,

(22:11):
because we forgot sometimes we don't do our job. But also,
the Pectel test, as we've always said, it's a flawed
metric and it's not the most important thing when analyzing film. Well,
I feel like in this case the fact that it
probably like may not pass the PacTel test. Actually it
says a lot about the movie because it's not like

(22:31):
this movie is like the pantheon of feminism. What. Look,
we're just partying today. We're just chilling. Okay, Okay, let's
take a quick break and then we'll come back for
the recap because we've just been yapping our loose butt holes,
slap in our butts, all right, so we'll be right

(22:55):
back and we're back. We're back. Wow. Wow, we're actually
a mess today. This is really funny. I wonder if
this is where someone's like, I'm out, I'm out, you
know what, I'm out. Bear with us. Okay, we're partying today, everybody.

(23:17):
I can come back for a discourse next week. We're
where this is it? I was going to say, isn't
we supposed to be having a fiesta? Is it? We
supposed to be having a fiesta? Indeed? We we is?
We is. So here's here's the recap for Shruk two.
We open on a fairy tale book telling similar to

(23:42):
the way the first movie opens, telling of the story
of a princess who was cursed with an enchantment. So
her mother and father, the King and Queen, sought the
help of a fairy godmother who had the princess locked
away in a tower guarded by a dragon to await
the kiss of a handsome Prince Charming. Then we meet

(24:06):
Prince Charming was like the John Lithgo, but just a
different character. Yes, why this time voiced by Rupert Everett.
And he's taller, right, but like the same. I don't
get it. I don't get it. Also, I always forget

(24:28):
who Rubert Everett is and then I look him up
and I'm like, this didn't help. I know that he's
been in a lot of stuff, but I don't know
who he is and I can't remember. That's okay, thank you,
You're welcome. Anyway. Prince Charming shows up at the dragon
guarded castle, but Princess Fiona isn't there because she is

(24:52):
on her honeymoon with Shrek. Now, if you're not familiar
with Shrek, listeners out there, or you haven't seen the
first movie, first of all, get it together. Secondly, help you. Secondly,
both Shrek and Fiona are ogres famously, So okay, So

(25:15):
there's this honeymoon montage, there's a Lord of the Rings joke.
It's all very two thousand and four. There's some two
thousand four humor in this that I'm like, I don't
even know, I don't remember what the references even. There's yeah,
but then the movie occasionally references things from like the eighties.
There's like a Flashdance reference. Towards the end of the movie.

(25:37):
There's a little Mermaid reference which came out in the
late eighties. Like it's just I feel like that's this
is like, yeah, this is I don't even know if
we had the capacity to talk about this in the
first Wreck episode. But like, so much of the humor
is like for the parents of the children. So if
you saw it as a kid and you watch it
back as an adult, um, you still don't know what

(25:58):
they're talking about, Which means that kids who could be
our kids don't know what did kids? Do kids still
watch Shrek too? And do they know what's going on
at all? Oh, if we have any parents whose kids
watch Shrek to currently, let us know, do they go,
ha ha I love the Lord of the Rings, Joe.

(26:22):
Let us know, ha ha I get the Flashdance reference? Um.
Elementary school students love a good flashdance reference. Okay, so
we get the honeymoon montage. Then they head back home
to Shrek's swamp. Donkey is there? Shrek? Thank god? Also
dragons written out of this one? Yes, hate it? Okay,

(26:45):
am I remembering this correctly? I think it might be
like during or at the end of the ending title sequence,
you get a shot of like Dragon and Donkey and
they've had babies. Or is that at the end of
the first movie had like Donkey Dragon hybrid babies. That's
a definite thing, but I just don't know where you

(27:06):
see it. I don't think it's this one though, But
that's but thank you for introducing that image into my head.
Wow wow wow wow. Yeah. Anyway, so at some point
in the franchise, Donkey and Dragon have mixed babies. But yeah,
Dragon has completely written out of this movie. And in fact,

(27:28):
there's a part where, uh, they're like, hey, Donkey, where's Dragon?
And he's like, she's been so moody lately, because women
be moody, women be extreme. They're right, but that that
is his whole excuse for I guess I don't really know.
I guess this movie takes place over the course of
what like two weeks A few weeks. Yeah, that's a

(27:49):
long time to be away from your wife. On the
on the on the grounds of she's moody, especially if
she's pregnant, which might exp plane her mood swings. Yeah, donkey,
everything of that. I'm calling him out. Donkey's a bad husband, seriously,

(28:10):
so Donkeys there, he's being annoying. Shrek is all like, Donkey,
go away, you're bothering me. Classic. We love this dynamic.
We're always laughing when it's happening. Tried and true. Then
Fiona and Shrek receive an invitation from her parents, the
King and Queen of the Kingdom of Far far Away,

(28:30):
for a royal ball in celebration of their marriage, and
Shrek is reluctant to go, but they set off anyway
too far far away. They finally get there. It's basically
Los Angeles, specifically like Beverly Hills, and Shrek is very
much a fish out of water. He then meets Fiona's

(28:53):
human parents, who are not happy that Fiona and her
husband are ogres. Shrek and the King in particular do
not get along well because everything is about fathers and sons. Yeah,
her parents are played by Julie Andrews and John Klice,
so they really which I also like, it doesn't matter

(29:15):
because it's Shrek. But I'm like, why are her parents
British but she's American? Oh wow, I didn't even think
of that. I mean, I I know that, I know
that children can have different accents from their parents, but
I just don't. I just felt like the story didn't
rise to the occasion and give me the answers that
I needed to understand why her parents were iconic British

(29:38):
people when she's Cameron Diaz right, Because it seems like
everyone else in Far far Away also has English accents
because the fairy godmother, Prince Charming. I think anyone else
you hear talking who's like a local has an English accent.
I wonder how like thought through that was, or if

(29:59):
it really is like a like specifically American audience thing
of like, oh well, we like the person with the
American accent because she sounds like us. I have to
the directors from New Zealand, so who knows, And then
you've got Canadian Mike Myers doing a Scottish Shrek. If

(30:20):
nothing makes sense, that's true. I forgot her. Yeah, you
know what, it's a fairytale land. I just was like, wow,
they really like got the most famous British people who
had agreed to do the movie, right, Um, okay, So yeah,
Shrek and the King do not get along, which makes
Fiona sad and it puts some strain on her relationship

(30:43):
with Shrek. She sheds a tear which seems to summon
Fiona's fairy godmother, who is surprised that Fiona is now
an ogre and that she has gotten married. The reason
for this is a fairy godmother is Prince Charming's mother

(31:03):
and fairy godmother and the King had arranged for Prince
Charming to be the one to save Fiona from the
tower that she was locked up in kind of a
fun plot twist. I forgot about that, like overlap. I
was like, okay, so the fairy godmother has narrative purpose.
That's you know, that's not guaranteed in these in this genre.

(31:26):
That's true and I mean spoiler alert, but you learned
that the fairy godmother has leverage over the king because
she had turned him from a frog into a human.
So she keeps like threatening him, being like, don't forget
the deal that I made for you, and blah blah blah,
you owe me so genius, amazing writing. The King has

(31:51):
to make things right, so he hires a hit man
to get rid of Shrek. He sure does, I do
kind of miss like I I guess that this still
might happen in children's movies, but I'm like, wow, he
literally just hired someone that kills someone murder Shrek. But

(32:12):
we don't yet get the reveal of who or what
the hit man is. But just you wait, just wait.
I knew what the reveal was that I was still
like wow, I loved it. I loved every second of it. Same. Meanwhile,
Shrek and Fiona's relationship again is rocky because Fiona is
upset that Shrek is not making an effort to get

(32:34):
along with her family. So then the King approaches Shrek
and is pretending to want to start over and try
to get along for Fiona's sake, So the King has
Shrek meet him the following morning, but again it's it's
actually a trap, and the hit man that the King hired,
who is revealed to be Puss in Boots voiced by

(32:58):
Antonio Benderi, is of course true icon Puss in Boots,
who also has like way less to do with the
story than I remember. I don't know why, Like Puss
in Boots, he does stuff, but he's also kind of
like I feel like it almost becomes a joke of like,
oh wow, now Shrek has two sidekicks. Yeah, and that's
just kind of what happens. I didn't totally remember this either,

(33:21):
where so he like attacks Shrek for a few minutes
and then there's no match for an ogre, so he's
not going to be able to kill Shrek. So then
so like, but you would think that that information would
have been like really important before accepting the job of
like what was like, what was We're just gonna see
Shrek kill a cat? Yeah, and then keep walking like

(33:46):
the plot is confusing. It kills a dog later in
the movie, remember what I think. There's like this little
like fluffy white dog that he like just falls on
and probably crushes to death. I I thought it was
like Puss in Boots, I was. I felt like he
was underwritten because I was just like, well, wouldn't it

(34:07):
doesn't help the dad to send out an assassin that
would just get killed? And if Puss in Boots is
such a good assassin, why wouldn't he ask who he
was killing? And if he could, he does know that
it's an Ogre though, because the king is like, I heard,
You're the one to come to if I have an
Ogre problem, and he's like, you heard correct, So he

(34:29):
knows he's up against Ogre. It's just like the raw
power of Shrek, specifically that he can't exactly. He's like
that butt holes to lose, baby, I can't, right, So anyways,
wild Puss in Boots attacks them, and then it doesn't work,

(34:50):
and then rather than I didn't know what I would
have expected to happen, like when I was watching this
for the first time, But basically then Puss in Boots
is like, sorry, I tried to kill you. Can I
tag along? And Shrek is like, oh, you're so cute,
Sure you can tag along, and then like that's the
that's it. That's kind of the direct, Like I like,

(35:12):
I don't. I'll be honest, I don't. I'm not familiar
with the actual lore of Puss in Boots, not a
character I grew up with. Yeah, me either, So I
really only know Puss in Boots via Shrek too, which
is more or less just an extended Zoro reference, right,
because Antonio Banderas played Zoro, and so we're like, ha ha,

(35:33):
this cat is zero, so let's give him ten million
dollars and half him have a little bit of fun.
So it's it's amazing, is what we're saying. I mean,
I wouldn't trade it for the world. I just was like, oh, wow,
he has less of a story than I just assumed
that there would have been more there than just like wow,
look at the Zoro cat. Ha ha. Anyways, ye, So

(35:57):
Shrek quickly realizes that the ng had hired Puss and
Boots to get rid of him, So then he starts
to wonder if Fiona would be better off without him,
if he was some kind of prince charming. You know,
no one seems to want this ogre around, right, So
Shrek gets the idea to call upon the Fairy Godmother

(36:18):
to have her help him. So Shrek, Donkey, and Puss
in Boots go to the Fairy Godmother's workshop and steal
a Happily ever After potion, which Shrek drinks and Donkey
also has some. It takes effect on them and on Fiona.
To tell me that hot Shrek quote unquote doesn't look

(36:44):
exactly like wreck It Ralph. It was throwing me for
a loop. I feel like he looks so much like
wreck It Ralph when he's turned into Mr. Shrek. I
see a slight resemblance, But I don't think it's like
uncanny or anything. He looks you know, they look considerably different.

(37:05):
I don't know, I don't know. I think he looks
a lot like Rocky Ralph. Also, I felt like, I
don't know, I liked. I think Shrek's hotter as an ogre.
I'll say it, wow it yeah, I mean beauty. I
don't I don't see external beauty. I just beauty is within.
And that's the message of the movie. It just it.
Shrek is more confident in his ogre body, you know,

(37:29):
that's true. His his and his butt hole is so
much looser as an ogre, and that's the way he likes.
You can tell he's not comfortable with where his butt
hole is at when he's transformed. Yeah, okay, So the
potion turns Shrek into a subjectively handsome human man. Donkey

(37:52):
is turned into a stallion, and then they discover that
to make the effects of the potion permanent, the drinker
has to obtain who loves Kiss by midnight, so Shrek
heads back to the castle to find Fiona, who has
also been transformed back into her human form. But oh no,

(38:12):
Fairy Godmother and Prince Charming are already there, and they
trick Fiona into thinking that Prince Charming is the new
and improved Shrek, and Shrek is convinced that there's no
way that he can make Fiona happy. He thinks that
Prince Charming is the man she's always wanted, so Shrek

(38:32):
decides to leave again. The plot is so weird here
because it's like, first of all, Shrek and Fiona really
need to like hit up a couple's therapists and work
on their communication because the plot of but like at
least the first movie, it's like a big thing that
they can't talk about. But this is like a small

(38:53):
miscommunication that gets taken way out of context, and like
I was just trying to imagine, like imagine if someone
you had just married read your journal from junior high
and was like, she hates me, and it's like, what
are you talking about? First of all, that was what
that was a very upsetting journal for not the reasons

(39:14):
that you thought for like all the descriptions of her
parents gaslighting her, right, and then it's just so like
juvenile to be like, oh, you didn't love me when
you were twelve. It's like she didn't fucking know you
and she was twelve. What are you talking about? Most
of my notes about this movie are about his conduct

(39:36):
in the first like twenty or twenty five minutes or so,
and like their relationship and like the way that Fiona
is characterized, the way that Shrek is characterized, and like
the way they behave in this relationship. I'm just like,
who get it together? I know, I feel I feel
for Fiona. And then it's like there's that moment too

(39:57):
where it seems like fe Jonah is gonna like become
involved in the action, and then she just doesn't. You're like, right, um, okay,
So Shrek has left, but Fiona is not warming up
to Prince Charming. She's like, this isn't the Shrek I married.

(40:18):
So fairy Godmother gives gives the king some potion to
give to Fiona to make her fall in love with Charming,
Like if they the first man she kisses, she'll fall
in love with him, which is an interaction this like
exchange of the potion is an interaction which Shrek overhears

(40:39):
because they've all met up at this tavern. So Shrek
realizes what's happening, and he takes off and heads back
to the castle to the ball in order to get
Fiona back, but on the way they get arrested, which
plays out on screen in this like Cops like TV
show was the whole and there's like a police brutality

(41:03):
joke from Donkey that I was like this, no, no,
this is not conven you to have this discussion and
this show, this TV show, Yeah, that like that felt
like I don't know, I mean, I'm interested in what
listeners thought of that, because I was like, this seems

(41:25):
like an inappropriate joke to be making. And also the
fact that it was being made in two thousand four
and a children's movie is like also interesting. I don't know,
I don't know how to feel about it. And then
the gingerbread Man loves the show Cops, and it's like, okay,
you with your why is it? Why is it gingerbread

(41:46):
Man telling me Blue Lives Matter? Like what's going on?
But so Shrek's friends back at his swamp are watching
this show, so it's like Ginger, the Big Bad Wolf, Pinocchio,
the Three Little Pigs, etcetera. So they realized that it's
like Shrek and Donkey and puss In Boots who have

(42:06):
been detained. So then they somehow, very quickly, within the
span of a few minutes to hours, are able to
get to far far away, even though we saw it
took Shrek and Fiona days to get there. So plot
hole much Uh yeah, a loose plot hole, not unlike

(42:30):
Shrek's loose butthole. Anyway, this was nominated for a put Look,
we anyone can be nominated for a Palm Day or gosh,
I need to yeah, I need to write some movies
that are better than Shrek to Okay, So the Shrek's
friends show up and bust Shrek, Donkey, and Pussing Boots

(42:52):
out of the like dungeon prison they're in. But they
still need to get to the castle, past the security,
past the big mot all that stuff. So they have
to go to the Muffin Man and have him bake
a giant gingerbread man so that they can get into
the castle and crash the ball that's happening. I never

(43:12):
realized how ridiculous of a plot point. This was until
rewatching it this time around that like, they're amazing idea
of getting into the castle is to bake a giant gingerbread.
Man it was I thought it was hilarious in two
thousand four, I mean, flawless writing let's go to can

(43:33):
let's do it. So then as Shrek is getting into
the castle, Prince Charming is dancing with and trying to
kiss Fiona at the ball and then Shrek bursts in
and then Fairy Godmother tries to stop him, but she
gets turned into a bunch of bubbles. And it's now
it's almost midnight, so Shrek and Fiona have to decide

(43:56):
happening at once, like if nothing thing is happening and
yet everything and I mean this climax wowy wow. So yeah,
the clock is taking down. It's almost midnight. So Shrek
and Fiona have to decide if they want to kiss
now and stay humans or wait and then transform back
into their ogre selves. And Fiona is like, I want

(44:19):
to live happily ever after with the ogre I married.
So we're really we're literally returned to one at the
end of the movie, and it's like, why did this
movie even happen. Who has grown? What do we We've
met John Claye and forgiven him for some for some reason. Yeah,
So then the clock takes midnight, they transformed back to Ogres.

(44:42):
They kiss, and then Donkey and put some boots sing
live in Levita Loca and that's the end of the movie. Also,
I've now as an adult, I can appreciate how the
music at the end of Shrek clearly happens to get
it to be feature length. This movie is eighty one

(45:06):
minutes long, but if you add all of the musical
numbers of the end, dudes about ninety minutes long. Incredible.
I mean, I love a short film, so no complaints here.
This is basically a short film. Let's take a quick
break and then we will come right back to discuss.

(45:29):
And we're back. Welcome back to our fifth anniversary party.
Let's let's discuss. I mean, there's there's a lot of um,
extremely dated, hateful humor in this movie. We we already
touched on this movie's very bizarre attempt to reference how

(45:52):
there's police brutality glorified in cop shows. There is a
continuous joke about the wolf that goes across this entire
franchise that is repeatedly I mean punching down at trans people,
and like the wolf is referred to as gender confused.

(46:14):
There's like all of these just very flippant ways of
referring to the wolf, and it's clear the way that
the movie is written and the way the character is posed,
that you're laughing at them. I would say this extends
to a few other characters as well. This movie has
a real problem with any person or creature or animal

(46:37):
or whatever who doesn't adhere to a like very rigid
binary prescribed gender norm because any like literally any expression
of gender that is not rigidly binary is commented on aggressively,
down to even like Prince Charming wearing glitter, like yeah, yeah, yeah,

(47:00):
there's there's that. There's like the ugly step Sister character.
There's the Pinocchio the joke where they're trying to get
him to his nose to grow, so they tell him
to say, I'm wearing ladies underwear. He says it, his
nose doesn't grow because he's not lying about that, And
then there's this long joke about someone who presents as

(47:22):
a boy wearing women's underwear and like, oh my gosh,
isn't that so funny and weird and ha ha ha,
and a children's movie too, is like makes it extra
insidious of how normalized punishing and mocking any form of
not very rigid, rigid, rigid gender expression was at this

(47:46):
time to the point where it could appear in a
children's movie no problem. And um, I'm assuming in two
thousand four get very little blowback because that was just
so deeply normal and to an extent still is very
very normalized in in mainstream movies. There was also, I mean,

(48:08):
I think that that similar jokes are are made about
the wolf in the first movie, and also because I
am a connoisseur of Shrek the Musical, they had to
take a line of the wolf's dialogue out of the
musical because it included a transphobic slur. So this franchise

(48:29):
has some severe issues that I feel like are very
reflective of the time it was poised and also reflective
of like again, who is in the room and who
is at the top creatively and like this two thousand's
era edgy, edgy humor that was all dictated by like

(48:53):
vast majority cys people, um, mostly white people and mostly guys. Yeah,
so yeah. This This movie is um co directed by
three people, all white guys. So there you go, Wolf Wolf.
That's what that dog said when Shrek killed it. Yeah,

(49:16):
so um that was the main thing I noticed as
far as like, again, we talked about this a lot
in terms of American comedy movies specifically and their reliance
on punching down as a source of comedy, especially in
this era. It was like at the kind of height

(49:36):
of that things have been changing slightly in more recent years,
but this was like the prime time to be doing
like punched down humor. And this is no exception even
though and I think we've talked about this too, where
children slush family movies are not as frequently perpetuators or
participants in this type of humor because a lot of

(49:59):
that type of humor is also would be like maybe
more like PG thirteen or are rated so they can't
really get away with it in a lot of cases.
But this movie found a way to make repeated transphobic
jokes at the expense of multiple characters in a movie
that's rated PG or whatever. Right like it's it's which

(50:23):
again just like shows, I mean, god, we could discuss
movie ratings all all goddamn day. But what is considered
to be harmful slash offensive? And then who is the
person deciding that That's a whole other discussion. But yeah,
this is like so deeply two thousand four, and I
feel like that's reflected in a lot of the more

(50:47):
attempted jokes that are simply just punching down. Yeah, that
sticks out terribly, terribly, And then on top of that,
the story is just like confusing. God, um, yeah, I
want to talk about Shrek man. Let's talk about Shrek

(51:08):
behavior in his relationship, and then also like the way
Fiona is characterized in that relationship as well, and that
whole thing because so first, well, the first like five
minutes of the movie are letting you know that Shrek
fus where it's just like all these times as like

(51:29):
trying to have sex with his wife, and it's just
like I know, And I also I was like, wow,
I god, it really hit when it's like I just
was like, wow, this whole musical opening montage is about
Shrek try and a loosen his butt hole and have

(51:50):
some fun. And then right after that when they get
back from their honeymoon, like the honeymoon phase is literally
over then the relationship. Okay, so basically what happens is
they get this invitation to visit Fiona's parents, and Shrek
is like, your family seems really pretentious. We're not going,

(52:14):
and that's final. And then what ensues after that is
to me, the movie subscribing to this idea that like,
my wife is the old ball and chain. Whatever she
says goes, and I'm just like, it's her world and
I'm living in it kind of thing where he's like,
we're not going and that's final, and then we cut

(52:35):
to them packing up and leaving because apparently off screen
there was a scene in which Fiona fought to get
her way, you know, as if to say, like women
and you know, his wife's are unwilling to compromise, and
you know, there you gotta do what they say, you know,
and you're you just have to accept the fact that

(52:57):
you're quote unquote whipped. All that kind of stuff. So
that's those were the vibes I was getting from all
of that. Meanwhile, Shrek is being an absolute asshole in
these scenes where he's like making assumptions about her family
and saying like, oh, I don't even want to be
a part of this family, so you know, he he

(53:19):
doesn't want to make any compromises or anything like that.
But it's Fiona who is the one who is being
presented as unreasonable because she especially because like Shrek turns
out to be right in this situation, because his assumptions
about her family end up being correct, and you know,
he keeps saying this is a bad idea, and he

(53:41):
turns out to be right. So it makes Fiona look
like she doesn't really know what she's talking about or
that like she's being unreasonable, which is really frustrating because
it's like the Fiona character. I mean, I didn't rewatch
Shrek one for this, and that's me, but like I

(54:01):
do feel like the Fiona character, like she's especially for
a like princess character that's supposed to be commenting on
other princess characters. I feel like in the first movie,
she's that's done pretty effectively and she's a very motivated character.
She participates in a lot of the action, like it
seems to like successfully subvert, where this movie just doesn't

(54:23):
seem too as much, which is frustrating because there's I
think a lot of interesting stuff set up for Fiona.
But then either it's dropped or like Shrek resolves the
conflict instead of her resolving her own conflict, and so
then it just sort of plays into the princess tropes
that the character was written to subvert of like, well,

(54:45):
she needs her husband, her hero to resolve her childhood
trauma question mark. Like it just is all because because
with with Fiona's story here, I feel like you're given
like a pretty interesting concept for a kids movie that
feels like it fits in the world, which is like
that Fiona really wants to maintain a relationship with her parents,

(55:09):
even though it's clear that her parents have gas lit
and abused her in the past, and she she like
wants to find a way to you know, remain in
their lives and have her husband get along with them,
and like, I don't know, I was like, wow, this
is a very adult issue to be working through, you know, Like,

(55:29):
but she doesn't really get the opportunity to explore that
at all, Like she's just told by other people and
things start happening to her, and then I feel like
the Fiona from the first movie is kind of like
especially by the point that she's being shown a different
guy and she's like I don't know is this Shrek
or not like your Fion. Like I feel like Princess

(55:52):
Fiona would know, you know, like and would get into
a fight about it, not be like I'm confused, go
along with it and be like, yeah, something's not right here,
but I Am not gonna do anything about it, and
I'm just gonna keep and then like forgive her parents
for a world of trauma at the very last second

(56:14):
of the movie where you're just like, uh, huh what Yeah, yeah,
it's just like I was. So I didn't realize what
a Princess Fiona stand I was until I rewatched this
movie and I was like, Wow, everything that is cool
about her. She she doesn't really get to like do
in this movie. She doesn't get to really participate in

(56:36):
any action. I feel like we're told that her trauma
is resolved, but we don't understand why, and like it's
just like her dad being like, my bad that I
was going to literally murder your husband, Like that's not
a like, no, you don't just bounce back from that. Sorry,
I forcibly incarcerated you for your entire childhood and then

(56:59):
try to murder your husband the second you found happiness whoops,
like and then and then she's like it's okay, I
love you. Like I was like, oh, man, not to
mention force her into a marriage that she was like
probably not going to want to be in or consent to,
because like again, he had arranged with a fairy godmother

(57:21):
for Prince Charming to come and like sweep Fiona off
her feet. So like, yeah, the king is awful. She
should honestly, I mean, forgiveness is complicated, but if it
were me, I would not forgive the king if he
was my dad. Well that's yeah, forgiveness is complicated. But

(57:42):
I feel like in a movie like this, it would
have been kind of cool to see Princess Fiona be like,
I don't trust you, motherfucker's like, because I just feel
like that's a message you never get, Like, especially in
family films, you're always told like your family is your
family no matter what, which is like not not a

(58:03):
universally applicable message for a lot of people who have
difficult relationships with their families. And Fiona is such an
independent character that it would have been nice to either
see like her family really make amends with her in
a way that wasn't just completely bullshit end of movie stuff,

(58:23):
or maybe some ambiguous like I don't know, like you'll
have to earn my trust back, or I like the
real bad as choice would have been, like you know what,
I found true happiness in spite of you. I don't
need you in my life. Me and Shrek are going
to a couple's counseling at the swamp, Like that's that's
the ending I wanted for Shrek too, because also Shrek

(58:45):
is like being a real dipshit and you know that's
I know that's the problem to where So after we
get those few scenes that are basically there to communicate,
Fiona is this like kind of naggy like I'm going
to get my way because what I say goes because
I'm an unreasonable his wife character. After that, they arrive

(59:10):
at the castle and there's a scene after the dinner
scene where Fiona does seem to be acting more like
the Princess Fiona we Know One Love, where she's like
calling Shrek out on his behavior, like I can't believe
how you are behaving. No one is considering what I
might want in this situation. She tells him he's behaving

(59:31):
like an ogre even though I would argue that, like,
Fiona's expectations are similarly kind of uncompromising and a little unreasonable.
I agree. But but then when she said like, well,
but I don't know, yeah, they're both kind of I
was like, wow, this is actually this is this is

(59:52):
the marriage story. I want to see Shrek and Fiona
marriage story. Um. But then yeah, because I was kind
of conflicted about that, because I was like, well, I
don't think that it's like unreasonable that Shrek is like, no,
I don't want to meet these people and get along
with them. They like imprisoned you. I don't like them.
I don't like that. Like I think for a spouse

(01:00:14):
that is actually maybe a good attitude. Yeah, he's advocating
for her in a way that I'm like, I'm fine
with that. And then also, you know, like Shrek's baggage
is not that phrase. Shrek's baggage emotionally is that he
was like aggressively rejected from society for a really long time.

(01:00:38):
So of course going to the highest fanciest levels of
the society that rejected him for his whole life is
going to bring up a lot of ship for him.
Like I get why he doesn't want to go for
multiple reasons. That's why I was like, I was kind
of joking about the good out thing, but like that,
like I was legitimately reminded of that where there's like
a scene in the beginning of that movie where Chris

(01:01:01):
is like, I'm having hesitations about being a black man
going to your like rich white family. Obviously it's not
the same as like, you know whatever in Shrek, but
like there there is like a like a class difference thing.
There's a cultural difference thing, Like Shrek has every reason
to be really concerned about the way that he is

(01:01:25):
likely to be treated by this like royal family of
like who are again like the ruling class and the
people who are generally responsible for marginalizing ogres like Shrek
and Fiona like will not hear about it, and it's
just like you need to listen. But then I also like,

(01:01:45):
I like, I think that Fiona does need to listen,
and also think that her refusing to hear him on
that is like a trauma response on her end, because
she can't believe that her parents are bad and she
like That's why I was like, God, this is such
a rich story. Is It's like wild that they just
drop it, because I do feel like I agree with
you that, like Shrek is absolutely right to have, you know,

(01:02:09):
issues with going to them and to go in with
zero trust in these people because of all the reasons
you just described. And then also it's like Fiona, I
feel like there's a part of her that knows that,
but also like that kind of thing that you have
with in any difficult relationship where you're like, well, if
I admit that they were wrong to do this, this

(01:02:30):
is just going to unravel something and I'm not going
to be able to have a relationship with them anymore
because all the funked up stuff is going to start
bubbling to the surface. Or that's how I sort of
felt like Fiona was coming from, at least at the
beginning of the movie, before her motivations became increasingly confusing
and less relevant to the story. But it just felt

(01:02:50):
like she was like, well, I can't like if I
admit that my parents were wrong to lock me in
a tower and wrong to like judge me for being
an ogre at night question Mark, then I will have
to admit all this other stuff, and I'm not ready
because I want to have a relationship with them. So
it's like they're so like their stuff is so at

(01:03:13):
odds and then they just like don't really explore it.
And I don't disagree with the story choice that, like
Shrek is absolutely right, Like I'm glad that the story
didn't take the choice of like and Shrek just misjudged
the ruling class. They were actually really cool like that
at least, it's not that like he's proven right right

(01:03:34):
away when they get there and once again Shrek is rejected,
which is his you know, worst fear, and also what
he said was going to happen, and they reject Fiona,
which also hurts them both. And god, yeah, Fiona is
having like a denial issue in this movie and Shrek

(01:03:55):
is having a protagonist syndrome issue in this movie. There
are just so many layers. Much like ogres have layers,
onions have layers, The story has layers. I always appreciate
their onion carriage. I think that's funny. Yeah, but yeah,
the movie doesn't feel equipped to like handle all the

(01:04:16):
things that it's presenting. No, but I got a very
interesting setup to I mean, those are two very specific
outlooks on the situation, both of which in character. I
see why they feel the ways that they do. But
then it just goes nowhere. It goes nowhere, and yeah,
again the way because it doesn't explore it fully enough.

(01:04:40):
It just makes Fiona seem unreasonable and like unwilling to compromise,
and it makes Shrek seem, I don't know, just like
an asshole. And then so there's like the dinner scene
where like Shrek and the King are arguing with each
other in that Basically what happens like after the first

(01:05:03):
half hour of the movie is that Fiona is relegated
to a his wife type character where all she's doing
is just sort of being like Shrek, stop it, come on,
stop it Shrek, which kind of starts in this dinner
scene where both of his wives are just like Harold stop,

(01:05:27):
Shrek stop. And then for the rest of the movie
Fiona sucks is just like yeah, not really participating in
the narrative, and every scene she's in after that she's
just like, dad, what's going on? Where's my husband? The
most annoying thing too, is like she almost sets off
to go fine Shrek, but then the plot stops her

(01:05:50):
from doing that, right, Yeah, it's like raining and she's like,
I guess never mind right. I was like, wait, why
are you throwing this in my face? Right now? This stinks?
And then I feel like, I mean, there's not much
to say about the queen character, but she's given not
like nothing to do except to be like, Harold, what's

(01:06:12):
going on right? Something seems amiss? But what is it?
I'll ask my husband, who is clearly the reason things
are going wrong. She literally doesn't know that her husband's
a frog. She's just out of it, man. And then
like the Fairy go Bather. I think the Fairy Gabather
I thought was like a pretty effective villain. I liked

(01:06:34):
that at least she was like I don't know. I mean,
it is all kind of connected to being a mother,
but which is not my favorite. But I do appreciate
the the onion lairs that that character is given of.
Like she shows up with an agenda. She's she's literally
like girl boss villing, like she wants power. She's blackmailing

(01:06:58):
rich guys, and you're like, well, you know it's not right,
but it's interesting to watch. She's a female business owner,
she's a small business owner, so go off, Queen. Um. Yeah,
I I was on the surface, I was like, oh,
that's pretty cool that there's a female villain, especially in

(01:07:18):
a I think we've talked about this before, but um,
I've noticed a trend in movies where if the villain
is a woman, chances are the protagonist is also a woman.
And it's rare to see a female villain with a
male protagonist because I think the idea that a lot
of like writers and storytellers assume is that, oh, a

(01:07:42):
woman wouldn't be a formidable opponent to a man. A
woman would only be a formidable opponent to another woman.
And I feel like this is especially true in fairytale narratives,
where there are a lot of like Disney female villains.
You've got your you know, the a Witch from Snow White,
Maleficent from Sleeping Beauty, Ursula from Little Mermaid. But those

(01:08:06):
are all movies with female protagonists as well, and I
think it's kind of rare to see a movie with
a villain who's a woman and a protagonist who is
a man. So for this movie, I was like, Okay, damn,
we we get a subversion of that. So I was like, Okay,
that's cool. But then I started to think about fairy
Godmother's motivation and you like hinted at this, but it

(01:08:28):
is very much revolving around her son, where she's just like,
I want my son to be king or something, but
not because she wants power. It's just that, like, she
just wants to elevate the status of her son, and
everything she's doing is like for her son. I guess
I sort of I sort of assumed, maybe I'm giving

(01:08:49):
the story too much credit. I sort of assumed that
she did want an elevated status and she did want
power and like, but she never says that, so right,
I just sort of assumed because her son was so
like dofy that like and so like clearly not equipped
to be king that and she was so motivated and
capable that it was gonna that it was almost like
an arrangement of I guess I was really headcandoning this,

(01:09:13):
but I was like, oh, well, you know, he'll become
king and then she'll tell him what to do, and
that's how she'll get the power that she wants to have.
And that was I think I've just been watching Succession
too much because I was like, well, clearly there's a
chess game going on here, but maybe i'm reading get
to it too much. I mean, yeah, that would have
tracked if she was like, I want more power and

(01:09:35):
the way I'm going to get it is by orchestrating
this thing where my I can gain access to power
via my son. And if that was like something she
clearly articulated, that would have completely tracked for me. But
she doesn't ever explicitly say that. So yeah, I was
literally just I just watched I just watched Succession for

(01:09:56):
the first time, and I was just like, yep, there's
I get I know exactly what's going on here. I
get it. I understand rich people are so fucked up truly. Okay,
So I mean, I I guess if you view I
guess listeners, what did you think? Was she just being
mommy or was she being a you know, was she
going to be like round about queen? Because the Far

(01:10:19):
Far Away does appear to still be a deeply patriarchal structure,
so it does seem like the sort of thing she
would have to work around in order to accomplish the
power she may or may not have wanted, right Yeah, yeah, anyways,
so she has more interesting things going on than Fiona
in this movie, which sucks. Yeah, yeah, gosh, she's really

(01:10:42):
like neutralized in the middle of the movie in a
way that it made me so bummed out. And then
you see her like sad youth gaslighting journal and Shrek
is like jealous of her crush for when she was
twelve Prince Charming. I was like, Shrek, you're not emotionally intelligent, period,
and like that's just such a huge invasion of privacy

(01:11:06):
that I'm like, so much of what Shrek does in
those first like I don't know, twenty five minutes, I'm
just like, dude, you need to really work on yourself,
Like you need couples counseling, you need individual counseling. Like
problematic there, they're you're you're so insecure and but you're
refusing to work on yourself. He really does weaponize his

(01:11:27):
insecurity against the people he loves, doesn't He sure does, God, Shrek,
Shrek is deeply insecure and that is why we love him.
But also it's like, um, you have to you have
to improve Shrek. I think that, you know, I'll say it.
I'm gonna say something that's very controversial. I think Shrek
and Fiona should have dated longer. Okay, I think they

(01:11:48):
should have gotten to know each other better. Hang on,
I'm not saying that they couldn't live together. I'm not
saying that they couldn't be in love. I'm just saying
I mean, they got married very quickly, and the and
the strain and the relationship starts to show right after
the honeymoon. I mean, come on, anyways, did they get married?

(01:12:08):
They get married at the end of the first movie,
right after only knowing each other for a few days. Yes,
is that correct? Yeah? Which is I mean, like, that's
true love canon, But it's also like Shrek too shows
the consequences of true love canon, which is that you
don't realize that your husband is so insecure that he's
ruining your life. So I don't know. I did appreciate

(01:12:33):
like that in the moments that Fiona does get to
advocate for herself, I do. I generally liked those moments
where Shrek is being it's so complicated because it's like
he is right that her family sucks and that they
don't have her best interests at heart, but the way
he expresses that is very is a very selfish, not

(01:12:57):
empathetic towards his new wife, So it's like his communication
is bad, but and then and then when Fiona is
just like, well, Shrek, I don't think you have like
really considered how much I've changed my life to be
with you, And I'm like, damn, she's right, she's right,
She's right. Damn it. What a complicated relationship. This is

(01:13:19):
truly marriage story scenes from a marriage more like the
Shrek franchise. Okay, Sjamie, wowie, wow, we're breaking is wide open.
I wish the Shrek kissed Fiona's armpit like they do
in much. I haven't even seen the show. I just

(01:13:40):
know that Oscar Isaac kisses Jessica Chaps Nate's aren't yeah,
I all I need to know. I watch that scene.
I don't get anything about what's happening there, but um yeah,
Shrek and Fiona's relationship crumbles, which like provides the impetus
for I. Shrek does everything he does in the movie,

(01:14:02):
which I guess like lends a discussion about the theme
of the movie or like, you know, the message, the
moral of the story kind of thing, which is, you know,
something I appreciate. Again, I think the first movie handled
it more effectively, but the message of don't judge someone
by their exterior appearance or you know, draw conclusions about

(01:14:26):
them just because they're an ogre. What happens in this
movie does communicate that message to some degree, but again,
I feel like it gets a little muddled. And also
it's like it just in a in like a franchise way.
It's like, yeah, that was the message of the first movie, right,

(01:14:47):
so you either need to explore something new or look
at it from a different angle, or I don't know,
something else. But the movie just sort of like, hey,
remember and I understand like a common theme throughout a franchise,
you know, something that like ties the franchise together. But yeah,

(01:15:12):
when you just sort of this movie doesn't like it
doesn't like build on that message, and it doesn't even
communicate that message as effectively as the first movie did,
and so it just feels like they just tried to
do the same thing again, which is like a bummer
because it's like Shrek has so many lessons to communicate
to the world, you know, I mean, there is room

(01:15:34):
for it there. The premise is ripe for a lot
of like meaningful conversation and commentary on that, and the
story that's set up here is like actually genuinely pretty
interesting like the conflict between Shrek and Fiona, like, but
then they just don't really I thought that this movie

(01:15:57):
could have gone in a lot of different directions that
have been more interesting. If, like, you know, this first
the first movie is very much about Shrek's journey, and
the second movie could have really focused on like Fiona
trying to figure out how she fits in the world,
because keep in mind, she just got out of a
tower like less than two months ago. She's like, it's

(01:16:20):
still you know, I know that it's like we don't
want to like extremely harp on trauma in this children's movie,
but it's like this could have been a cool way
to explore her character and the fact that, you know,
if this movie wants to be as like bringing contemporary
themes and ideas to fairy tales as it says it

(01:16:41):
wants to be, then like let's examine the idea of
her being like a prisoner of her royal family parents,
immediately going into a wife role and like being transferred
from one controlling force to another controlling force, and like
let's have her like figure herself out a little. Like
I just feel like, yeah, I guess I'm just a

(01:17:01):
princess Fiona's stand kind of just like, there's so much
with this character that would be more interesting to explore
than repeating the message of the first movie in a
less effective way. Also, the movie could have explored her
identity as a full time ogre now, because prior to
this she had she lives half of her life as

(01:17:22):
a human and half as an ogre and then decides
to become a full time ogre and like what does
that mean for her new identity in her her life now?
Like there's yeah, there's so many other things are just
like other directions the movie could have taken to examine

(01:17:43):
these interesting things that it just doesn't really do. Yeah,
it feels like a wasted opportunity. However, when you think
about it, was the song Accidentally in Love nominated for
an Oscar? And the answer is yes, really yes, Counting
curls Oscar nominated band the Counting Crows did they Was

(01:18:07):
that an original song written for this movie? It had
to have been, right if I got nominated for an Oscar? Yeah? Wow,
they really handed the Counting Crows a golden opportunity that
the Counting Crows, to their credit, did not waste, Because
that's a that's a Bob. It's good they were not
Who did they lose to? Who did they lose to? Um? So,

(01:18:28):
Shrek was nominated, Shrek two, Shrek one was nominated for
an Oscar for the Best Animated Feature and one. Shrek
two was nominated and lost to The Incredibles, which is
a much better movie, and that makes sense. Who did
Counting Crows loose to? I feel like the Oscar for
like original song, whoever wins? I'm always like, huh, it's

(01:18:51):
like so many shitty songs of okay, let's say there's
it was a song from a movie called The Motorcycle
Diary is Oh that I haven't seen al Ultra Lado
del rio is the name of this song. The Motorcycle
Diary is good? What is that? Yes, it is. It's
a gayl Garcia bernw my rush your crushed. So of

(01:19:13):
course you've seen it. It's a biopic about early Jega Vera.
Oh that's cool. Yeah right, that sounds way better than
Shrek too. It's it's a very good movie. And again
Gayle's in it and he's um hot. Not that that's important,
which is what we learned from Shrek. Yeah. I was like,

(01:19:34):
don't you fly in the face of the message of Shrek. Here,
be careful, watch watch yourself. Yeah, well, well, I just
wanted to let everyone know that, Yes, the Counting Cress
are an OSCAR nominated. That's musical group, hilarious. Good for them.
That for them. Do you have any other thoughts about

(01:19:57):
the film Shrek two. I really don't think that I do.
I think that you know, there was a lot more
to talk about than I than I thought there would
be as usual, and I realized that I, um, I
I feel like Fiona because isn't like Shrek three. Like
Shrek three, Fiona has to have five hundred babies. Fiona

(01:20:20):
gets pregnant with a million Gregs and shregs. They have
Shreks all her shregs hatch. Oh my god, that's the
funniest thing I've ever heard. Um, yeah, that I haven't seen.
I've only seen Shrek three once and it was a

(01:20:44):
long time ago, and then I never saw a Shrek four.
I think this, it's just like I feel like Fiona.
For a character that starts really strong is forced into
a series of very binary, boring roles as the and
ties goes on. And that's my final thought. Not nice
to her. Did Pussy Boots get its own Oh my gosh. Yeah.

(01:21:08):
Puss in Boots has a spin off and TV series.
There's also something called Wait, Puss in Boots The Last Wish,
which is a movie coming out in Wow. Good for Antonio,
good good. I hope he's I hope those checks are clearing,
you know, good for him. I cannot believe. Oh yeah.

(01:21:32):
And then the TV series. My friend worked on the
Puss in Boots Netflix series. It sounds like it was fun. Wow,
amazing story, Jane, Thank you. Um. Does the movie pass
the Bechdel test that we think it does, but only
the very few I wouldn't say in context. I'm gonna

(01:21:53):
say no, yeah, only because even if it does pass,
it's a barely pass. And I don't think that the
themes of the movie make get worth arguing for a
potential pass. I'll say no, yeah, I think by our standards, no,
because the few conversations I do remember between women, either
Fiona and her mother or Fiona and the fairy Godmother,

(01:22:15):
the subtext is still something about a man. Yeah. I yeah,
let's just say no. Let's say no. It's been five years.
We're authorities. No where the experts. Yeah, as far as
our nipple scale goes on a scale of zero to
five nipples, how well does the movie fair when examining

(01:22:39):
it through an intersectional feminist lens. I don't remember exactly
what each of us gave the first movie. I gave
it one nipple. I'm giving Shrek two a half nipple.
We went down, it got worse. Um between the we're
the like awful Joe ooakes made at the expense of

(01:23:02):
anyone who doesn't fit a very like cis gender gender
binary quote unquote prescribed norm. Yes, all of those jokes
are horrendous. The way that the women in the movie
are generally not meaningfully included except for the villain. The

(01:23:25):
fact that like the villain is a more active character
than is ridiculous. The way that they're just you know,
certain stereotypes at play, with the way Fiona is characterized
as a like his wife ball and chain quote unquote

(01:23:47):
type of character. It's just, yeah, it's it's all a mess.
Donkey saying that his wife is moody. Come on, and
then we don't even get to see her. Yeah, no, Dragon,
I forgot about how that is also unjust. Wait, I
swear to goodness that there's like a post credit scene.

(01:24:09):
Was it in where the hell isn't see? Maybe I
didn't watch post Maybe I didn't treat this enough like
a Marvel movie, and I stopped watching when I thought
the movie was over. Oh wait, yeah, here it is.
Hang on, it's like kind of after the first batch
of credits. Oh my god, I'm watching this on Hulu. Brave. Yep, yep, yep, yep.

(01:24:29):
This is a real thing. Dragon shows up. I didn't
see to the ball after everyone's gone home and she
has all of her dragon donkey babies. She's okay, Well,
this does happen. I knew I wasn't imagines good. We
just need to get one more extremely normative thing in

(01:24:50):
before then, before we could go home. Cheez Louise is
good grief. So who are you going to give your
half nipple to? I have nipple goes to Puss in Boots,
because I think Puss and Boots is the reason I
loved this movie in two thousand four. You're not alone there,

(01:25:12):
all right, I guess I'll meet you there. I'll give
it a half nipple. I I feel like, I mean,
for all the same reasons the jokes that are at
the expense of marginalized communities in a children's movie that
is always going to absolutely piss me the funk off
because it's just like, it feels like even you know,
more harmful than when they appear in movies for adults. Um,

(01:25:37):
because it's just like, you know, creating transphobia at a
very ground level for people with very squishy brains, and
you can't you can't do that. Yeah, and then uh,
you know, just the general like kind of undermining what
was fun about the first movie by sidelining women and

(01:25:57):
just being like, um, yeah, first year in jail and
then you're in wife like this pipeline I don't love.
So yeah, I'll do a half nipple and I'm going
to give it to the boot. You gave it to
Puss and boots, I'm giving it to the Oh okay, yeah,
I gave my boot. Mine went to Puss and yours

(01:26:19):
went to boot to boot. So now you know cats
famously have how many nipples? Is that? Well, let me
draw back to my cat facts knowledge. I believe it's
eight nipples. Well, this one only has one, and half
of it belongs to his boot bummer. Sorry, Puss Nikes,

(01:26:41):
you know, maybe next time, maybe next movie. Well, well
there you go, there you happy anniversary Kaala, Oh my gosh, Jamie,
A happy anniversary to you. I love doing this show
with you. I love how much how we've grown and
we're constantly learning, and you know, and knocking out bangers

(01:27:06):
of episodes, if I may say so myself, not us
knocking out bangers. Uh no, but truly I love doing
the show with you. I love you, And let's do
fifty more years. Okay it's been Yeah, someday we're gonna
be like it's been eighty four years. It's been eighty

(01:27:26):
four years and I can still smell the fresh pod.
The microphones had never been used, the zoom had never
been logged in. We could keep going. Bechtel Cast was
the podcast of dreams and it was see getting around.

(01:27:50):
Um we I love you. I love doing this show.
Here's to five hundred more years. We'll do Shrek three
for our ten year anniversary. Wow. Wow, I'll hold you
to that. Well, let's see if the if, the world,
the integrity of the planet we live on last that long.

(01:28:10):
Can't wait. And thank you to our listeners for five
years of incredible memorials. Yeah, We wouldn't have continued to
release episodes of the show if no one was listening,
So truly we owe you a debt of gratitude. Listeners,
Thank you so much. Whether this is your first episode,
or whether you've been with us from episode one, or

(01:28:33):
you came somewhere in the middle, or whether you hated
this so much that this is your last episode you're
out of here. You know what. The spectrum is vast,
But truly, thank you for for listening. We wouldn't be
doing the show without you. Thank you for helping us

(01:28:54):
learn and grow. That didn't happen in a vacuum. So
our listeners have been a major part of why the show,
you know, keeps improving and the reason that we keep
wanting to do it. So and thank you to everyone
who helps make the show. Thank you to Sophie, Thank

(01:29:14):
you to Aristotle, thank you to Jack, Thanks to all
of our wonderful friends and collaborators, and to all of
our guests. And truly, you know, it sounds like we're
accepting your award a reward and award. Um we're not.
We've never counting, they never won an award. Yeah, we're talking.

(01:29:34):
It's an honor to be nominated, as I'm sure the
counting crows have aggressively said, many times, oh goodness, sorry, bye,
bye bye