Spanglish with Melissa Lozada Oliva

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Doll cast, the questions asked if movies have
women and um are all their discussions just boyfriends and
husbands or do they have individualism the patriarchy? Zef in
best start changing it with the Bell cast La jamie
voi blood and Espanol and Spanglish. What sorry, I'm playing

(00:22):
the part. I'm playing the part of Adam Sandler. Okay,
necessito esta visto mm vida? So what? This movie is
the worst movie I've seen in my life? Wow? Coming

(00:45):
in hot. Well, I'm Adam Sandler and you're a hypocrite.
You're the worst movie ever, even though that makes no sense. Yeah, yeah,
I said it. Look at my hair. It looks I've
never seen Adam Sandler's hair looking so bad. Ah, well,
that didn't pass the Becktel test at all. I think

(01:07):
if we're dumping on Adam Sandler, that actually does pass
the Bechtel tests. The hair like, yeah, this was what?
Welcome to the Bechdel cast. Um, Caitlin, you were you?
How long have you been learning Spanish? Now? Nearly two years,
although I also studied it in high school in college,

(01:29):
but I forgot everything I learned back then, and now
I've been re learning. It's been starting fresh amazing. Shouts
out to Due Lingo, and shout out to my Spanish
tutors Adriana and Mercedes. They're the best anyway. Well, that's uh.
That that was Caitlin Toronte you heard well, and and

(01:56):
and that was Jamie Loftus. Yeah. Uh. And this is
our show where we take your favorite movies and take
another look at it through an intersectional feminist lens and
make fun of it or not, using the Bechdel test,
which is what well. It is a media metric created

(02:18):
by queer cartoonists Alison Becktel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace Test.
There are many versions of the test. The one that
we use these days requires that two people of a
marginalized gender have names, They must speak to each other
in any language, and that conversation has to be clarification.

(02:41):
Of course, it doesn't just have to be English, it
can be English, and that conversation has to be about
something other than ombre a man. I got that, yeah,
but um, yes, So we use that as a jumping
off point to initiate a larger conversation in and uh

(03:02):
with us to join in in that conversation is a
returning guest. She's a writer, poet host of the podcast.
To say more, Her new book Dreaming of You just
came out at the end of October and you remember
her from our episode on thirt Team Going on thirty.
It's Melissa Lozatta Aliva. Hi, thanks for having me back back.

(03:24):
I shouldn't have had a sip of water while you
guys were talking, almost like electrocuted myself with a spittake
in my reporting that My god. Um, I'm so excited
to talk about this movie. Yes, I am so thrilled
that you brought us this movie. Well, first, before we
get started, please tell our listeners a little bit about

(03:49):
your book, because I just want to make sure we're
talking about it at the beginning and everyone's gonna order
this damn book. Yeah. My book is UM. It's a
novel in verse. I guess um. That's how it's being marketed.
I think it's a rock I think it's a rock opera, UM,
and it's about its palms. It's a story of a

(04:09):
young poet whose name is also Melissa Um, who brings
to Hannah pop star Selena back to life through a
seance and the disastrous consequences that follow and it's about
like loneliness and obsession and celebrity and death and the
occult maybe and WiFi. Yeah, it's so good. Yeah, everyone

(04:34):
get into it if you don't already have a copy,
because it's amazing. Hell yeah thanks. And in terms of Spanglish,
why did you choose this movie to discuss and what
is your connection to it? That sounded very accusatory. Excuse me,
could you fucking explain yourself board of game? Like, what

(05:00):
what is your connection to history with this movie? It's
almost Yeah, I came out in two thousand four. Yeah,
I have a very This movie is so weird. I'm
still like very sentimental about it. I saw it on
Christmas Day with my family because Latinos we celebrate it
on Christmas Eve Christmas, but we all like went together

(05:22):
as a family, and it was like right before my
parents got divorced, and like all of my like my
grandmother was there and my mom and my sister and
my whole family was like crying because my mom was like,
this is the story of my life. Um, and it
was very like oh, like my sister would like translate
from my mom. My mom never had like a weird
affair with Adam Sandler. But and then I think yeah,

(05:48):
and then I like re examined it in college and saw,
you know, all of the weirdness about it. And I
have this like fascination with Christina, who's like main character
and how I don't know this, I'm like really interested
in this idea of the like young Latin child being
like a genius and like the Latin young Latin child

(06:09):
to Hamilton's pipeline um of like yeah, so anyway, I
love this movie. So but it's also anyway, we we'll
talk about it, Jamie, what's your relationship with it? I
also really liked this movie. I saw it when it

(06:30):
came out. Yeah, because I was like twelve in this
movie came out. I don't know, but I remember seeing
it in theaters with my mom. I feel like it
was marketed as kind of like a mother daughter movie,
and so we went and I really liked it. I
also was not allowed to watch Adam Sandler movies, so
I was like, wow, Adam Sandler is so boring. What
does everyone like so upset about based on this movie?

(06:52):
But then this movie was also on T and T
all the time, so I'd watch it whenever it was,
I was, yeah, and I really, um, it's interesting. I
haven't watched this movie in at least five years. It's
definitely longer than I remembered two hours, two hours in
eleven minutes. Yeah, and I also wasn't I didn't remember

(07:13):
that it was a James Brooks movie, which is like
so bizarre on so many levels that we'll, I mean,
we'll talk about it. But yeah, this is the first
time i'd watched it since I had a better understanding
of like who James Brooks was other than a name
at the beginning of The Simpsons. So I'm excited to
talk about it. Yeah, I still like this movie is
still hit for me a lot watching it, Like there's

(07:36):
there's there's ship, There's plenty of ship. But there were
still moments where I was like, oh, that's a really
beautiful scene. Yeah, there's a lot of poetry in it.
There is. Yeah, it's nice. Also, I asked, the sailer's
hair is so distracted against is it a wig? Like?
Is it a wig? Like? I don't. I feel like

(07:59):
I've never seen his hair that like thick. It felt
like a wit. Maybe he just has a buzz. Usually
it's not as though they were like lacking for a budget.
It's like there was a hair and makeup budget. The
budget for this movie was eighty million dollars and was
also a box office flop because it only grows like
fifty five million or something. But which is like so

(08:21):
silly because that's million. Is I think, like pretty respectable
for a rom com. This movie just shouldn't have cost
eighty million dollars. It was like there was like three locations, right,
Is that just like the cost of Adam Sandy. Yeahdam
sand there was probably like seventy million, and like no

(08:43):
offense to Adam Sandler, but that could have been so
many white guys like that could have been any other guy.
He was really badly miscast in that role. Yeah, this
is by far the most random Adam Sandler movie. And
it is like an Adam Sandler movie movie. He's like
on the front of the he's like on the poster

(09:04):
which is in the forefront. It's almost like distracting that
he's in it at times because it's like the I
don't know, like I thought it was interesting that like
a man doesn't I don't think speak. For the first
like fifteen minutes of this movie, like it's all Christina
and floored, or it's like Deborah, deborahng out to her

(09:26):
daughter and like it's all women talking, and then all
of a sudden, it's like and here's Adam Sandler, and
you're just like, I do we need it? I don't know. Uh, Caitly,
what's your history of this movie? Oh my gosh, Well,
I had not seen this movie before, so I had
no emotional attachment to it. I was going in very fresh,

(09:49):
and I am so sorry, but I hate shit. It's
so much. I hate it. I think it's very bad.
I have reasons here. They are. The storytelling is choppy.
Every scene is overwritten, so so so overwritten. The editing

(10:10):
and the pacing is very weird. The tone is very
weird and inconsistent. The tone is confusing. I feel like
the Hans Zimmer music was trying to like do some
heavy lifting and like making it clearer how you're supposed
to feel sometimes but right, it's a college essay. It's
a weird like random voice of the framing devices is strange.

(10:32):
I have never felt less compelled or convinced by a
romance between two people on screen. There are different conflicts
that are like set up and then just like dropped,
like loose threads that get even looser and looser as
the movie goes. And then all the reasons that we'll
talk about in the context of like our podcast, that

(10:52):
I think are missteps. But I've never been so deeply
bored by a movie in my entire life. God, Holy Ship,
Coming in Hot, Coming in So sorry, but that is

(11:13):
how I feel, and I have to speak my truth
fair enough there. Honestly, some of the overwriting, I don't know,
I just like the tone gets bizarre at some point
where it's like, also, I feel like removing Adam Sandler
and like telling Taloni to take it down a couple
of notches could have resolved the tone issues too, because

(11:35):
there was some things that was like, I like Taloni
was like was maybe not communicated with very effectively of
like this isn't like you're not doing like a when
Harry mets Tally Orcass in this that whole scene, Oh
my gosh, blocked that out because I was like, you
don't even need me the mother of two children right here,

(11:57):
and then as she orgasm, she goes what which is
like in another movie could have been pretty funny but
in this movie was like, what is going on? Because
then it cuts to like a pretty serious because I
think that the takeaway from that seems supposed to be
like they're not connecting. That's never before I thought the

(12:24):
tone issues are kind of funny too. Um, well, let's
let's talk about it. Yeah, I'll do the recap and
then we'll go from there. Okay. So there is this
framing device where a young woman, Christina Moreno, has submitted
a college Emissions essay about the story that we are

(12:45):
about to see unfold, and then we get her voice
over throughout the movie, which is like her reading this
essay telling this story. So it begins with us meeting
six year old Christina and her mother, Floored, played by
pass Vega. They live in Mexico. Flora's husband has just
left the family, so Florida decides to take Christina and

(13:09):
immigrate to the US. They go to l A, Florida
works a couple of jobs, then, after six years of
living there, her cousin Monica sets her up with an
interview for a higher paying job working as a housekeeper
for the Klatsky family. Trouble is, Florida doesn't speak English,

(13:31):
so Monica accompanies her to the interview to translate. During
this interview, we meet Deborah that's Taloni, her daughter Bernie,
Deborah's mother Evelyn played by Cloris Leachman. They're a well
to do family in l A. Deborah's husband is her
husband is a top chef, the top chef, and then

(13:55):
they say like she She's like they do like, I
don't know. James Brooks is like, I feel like he
always gives me just enough that I'm like, God, I
guess I can't be mad at him about that. I'll
have to find something else, right, Like you find out
that Deborah used to do something, but then something something
Now she doesn't. Now she's a full time mom. She's

(14:16):
like an interior decorator or something. Some design persons like
a movie job. So Debora offers Floored the job. So
she and Christina celebrate. Then Florida starts the job, which
is when we meet John that's Adam Sandler. She starts working.
There's definitely a language barrier between her and the family.

(14:39):
Deborah is very high strung. She we see her get
on her daughter's case about her weight, including when she
buys clothes for Bernie that she knows are too small
for her, and it hopes that they will motivate her
to lose weight. Evil, horrible. Deborah is never like redeemed

(15:00):
the whole time. She really a bad person. Yeah, she's
just like cartoon evil. Yeah, right, like and it kind
of like it gets worse as the movie goes on.
She gets worse and worse. I don't know. That thing
to Bernie was like, I was like, that's worse than
when she cheated on Adam Sandler as far as I'm concerned.
That was pure evil. Yeah, that was that was the

(15:23):
worst thing. Who's that actress who plays Bernie. I haven't
seen her in any she was I unfortunately, but it
out myself as someone who has watched every episode of
The Good Wife. She was on the she was she
was the daughter on The Good Wife. Sarah Steele is
her name. Yeah, So this obviously very much upsets both

(15:45):
Bernie and John, but Deborah is all like John, we
have to be on the same page as parents. So
then John confides in Florida about this, even though she
doesn't understand what he's saying, but she does understand why
Bernie was upset, so she takes some of the clothes

(16:07):
and alters them so that they will fit Bernie, and
then has Christina teach her how to say just try
it on in English so that she can tell Bernie
to try on the jacket and she does and it fits.
Then we get this whole sequence where this restaurant critic
had come to John's restaurant and then he reads what

(16:30):
turns out to be a very good review of his
restaurant in the Times, and everyone in the family is
super excited. And this is when we get that very
weird sex scene between Adam Sandler and Talione where she's
like screaming at the top of her lungs. I don't
think he's even inside of her right because he's like
he keeps saying, you can do this without me. That's

(16:54):
false propaganda about how easy it is to makes one coom.
That's also it's like, aren't their kids home? She's like
screaming doors open during that the door is open. The
kids were just right there reading the review like it's
so confusing. Should have cut it? Should have cut it?

(17:19):
Kind of glad they didn't, because it's just like, should
have been cut, Like we already knew that the relationship
wasn't working, Like, why did they do that? It's funny,
I don't I think every scene should have been cut. Okay,
the then Deborah rents a house in Malibu for the
family to stay in for the summer, and she wants

(17:42):
Floor to stay with them as well, which at first
she refuses because she doesn't want to leave her daughter,
Christina behind, But then Deborah is like, no, your daughter
can live here too, So Florida and Christina move into
this rental home for the summer, which some drama ensues
from there, where Florida is mad that Deborah took Christina

(18:07):
shopping and to get her hair done without telling floored. Um.
Then there's this whole thing with John offering to pay
the kids to find sea glass, which Christina finds a
bunch of and then he pays her like over six
hundred dollars for it, and then Florida calls him out
for meddling in her daughter's life. I mean, he should

(18:29):
have told Florida that that was like that he was
giving her like rent money. I was like, you can't
just give a thirteen year old six hundred dollars. What
will they do? Yeah? Right, Yeah, that was kind of perverted. Yah,
So she calls him out, and then he calls her
out for meddling in his daughter's life when she altered

(18:51):
Bernie's clothes. Also, Christina is translating for both of them
during this scene because Florida still does not speak English.
And then Florida is you're right, I am a hypocrite
and John is like, wow, it's so cool that you
admit that you agree with me, and that you admit
it's so cool when you tell me I'm right. And

(19:13):
then this is the beginning of what seems like it
might be a romance between them. And then this is
also when Flora starts to learn English, which she appears
to do in a week. It's like the summers. Yeah,
like yeah, but she's already been there for a while
and it just seems like she learns she becomes fluent

(19:35):
in English very fast. I do like the scene where
her and what's Evelyn Evelyn's chorus? Leachman is that her name? Yeah?
I do like when I like on the couch and
she's like holding a glass of wine and repeating English
words with her because she's just like wasted. Yeah. I
had a totally false memory of this movie. That was

(19:59):
like ended up being way too kind to the movie
that in my memory of this movie, I was like, Oh, yeah,
Adam Sandler also learns some Spanish, but that doesn't happen.
Oh no, don't. No one in the Klatskey family learns
a single word of Spanish. It doesn't come up. Okay,
So she is learning English and then one night John

(20:22):
comes home really drunk and it seems like he's trying
to flirt with Flora. Deborra is out somewhere. It seems
like she's kind of sneaking around. We're not really sure
what's going on there. And then Debora gets Christina a
scholarship at a private school where Bernie goes, and Flora
feels weird about it, as if you know, Deborrah is

(20:43):
still meddling in her daughter's life, which she is, And
then Flora talks to John about it and they bond
a bit over that. Then one night, Debora confesses to
John that she's been having an affair and John leaves
the else and as he's leaving, he takes Florida with him, who,

(21:04):
by the way, she was there to quit her job
working for them. They keep gas lighting this poor woman
into not quitting her job that she wants to quit
sop A Headley, Yeah, yes, so much manipulation from everybody.
And then so John is like, hey, Florida, do you

(21:25):
want to hang out? And she's like, I guess. So
then he takes her to his restaurant and he's like,
you're beautiful, and then they kiss and then they talk
all night. He says they should name a gender after you,
but also he has that hair what he's saying, they

(21:48):
should name agenda after you. Like, he's also like periodically
screaming throughout the movie. He's like, if I can't even
look at you right now, I quit this job. I
feel this is like this is like an early dramatic
turn for Adam Stanley, right because he did that Paul
Thomas Anderson movie that everyone loves the name that I

(22:11):
don't remember, Punch Drunk Glove, Punch Drunk Glove. Everyone loved
his dramatic turn and Punch Runk Clove. And then I
think people were maybe like because that movie was from
two thousand two, and I think everyone's like, oh, like,
he could probably do any part, but the answer was no,
he can just scream. He can do punch Drunk glove
and he can do Hube Halloween. He can be Hube Halloween,

(22:32):
and he can do I keep wanting to say, the
righteous gems, uncut gems. He can do um slunt gems
and all the other ones. Stinky, stinky, stinky. Oh gosh,
they should name it gender after you. So he's all like,
you're beautiful, and they kiss and they're talking and then

(22:54):
Florida is like I love you, and we're like what,
And then Florida runs away, and then the next day
she tells Christina and the rest of the Classkey family
that she quits, and there's this big, tearful goodbye. Flora
says goodbye to John and they leave, and Christina is

(23:14):
really mad at Floora for quitting and pulling her out
of this private school. But then Christina soon forgives her
mother and understands that everything she does is for Christina.
And that's the end of this movie. That doesn't have
a plot, not but that's the story. Let's take a

(23:38):
quick break and then we'll come right back to discuss
and we're back. Does anyone want to start any particular
place with this movie? We know Caitlin does not like

(23:59):
I'm curious us to know. I want to hear more
about like your experience, Melissa watching this as a younger
person with your family, and like the connection you had
to it culturally and things like that. I mean, I
think when I first saw it, it was like okay,
two thousand four, so I was like, oh my God,
like represent Tacion. Like I think my mom was really

(24:22):
emotional about it, as I said before, like my older
sister would like translate around for her, and like my
mom would like clean houses. I mean, watching it now,
there are a bit of things that are like slightly
two dimensional about the Moreno family, I guess, but I
think it's still pretty good about like class and like xenophobia.

(24:47):
I was like surprised at how good of it it
was in two thousand four. And I don't know. I
think like Christina in particular, really like I feel like
I've been that like young Latin child where these like
scary white ladies like see a lot of things in me.
And I really think that the movie takes this like

(25:07):
almost radical turn where she's like, oh no, like I'm
taking my daughter away from this, like she can do
she can be successful in this country without assimilating or
being like like being part of whiteness. And I think
that's I also like always fucking lose my ship when
she says I stand firmly in my identity, like relies

(25:29):
on one thing, and that is I am my mother's daughter.
Kills me. It kills me. Um. Yeah, that makes sense
and that that all attracts to me, and I think
that is the movies one striketh um. But yeah, for me,
Like one of the things that pinned me was just

(25:49):
that for the first half of the movie, Florida is
like not really the focus. She isn't given Like so
many of the scenes revolve and so much of the
tension and conflict revolve around this white family. Even though
Florida is the protagonist, she's framed as the protagonist of
this movie. And I just feel like, if you're going

(26:11):
to tell a story about an immigrant woman from Mexico
coming to the US with her young daughter and kind
of grappling with this, like do I make an effort
to learn this new culture and language and assimilate or
do I maintain my my cultural identity from Mexico and

(26:34):
all these things that an immigrant has to deal with
and think about. I cannot think of a more boring
version of this story than this movie, where like she
isn't even the focus for the first half of the movie,
and then when she does start to become the focus,
it's it's because she's learning English and is now better

(26:54):
able to communicate with this rich white family and then
is falling in love with Adam Sandler, and then yeah,
I I definitely felt like this movie, like kept rewrote, like,
I think that there's an argument that the actually, like
this movie was marketed as Adam Sandler being the protagonist.

(27:16):
The introduction to the movie wants you to believe that
Flora is the protagonist, but then the way the movie
plays out, you're like, it could be Deborah. Also like
there's like it is kind of confusing this is Deborah
story and the story beginning middle an end is Deborah
sucks like she's terrible. But I yeah, I felt like

(27:39):
there were some creative traces that I wanted to, like,
I don't know, just get everyone's opinions on, because I
also felt like not even I mean, it feels like
we're not spending enough time with Florida from much of
the second act, but also like I felt like James L.
Brooks and I like read some interviews with him, and
his choice is to not include subtitles in this movie

(28:03):
was like very very deliberate. He didn't want there to
be subtitles. Yeah, and I I mean, I do not
speak Spanish, and I felt like not letting us know
what Florida was saying was like putting the audience in
Oh yeah, I don't know. It just like it was
creating distance between me and like the protagonist, who I

(28:25):
want to know what she's saying. I want to know
what she's feeling, but I don't know. I just found
that to be kind of like a frustrating experience because
the performance is so good and there's like a lot
in the story that I wish was like focused on more,
But it just felt like there was like this this
distance created between I guess me and the movie that

(28:48):
I wish wasn't there. That is so weird because it
does seem to be like a movie made for like
white American audiences, so like the decision should not put
subtitles in, it's like, let's like for there, make this
woman like it's like put her on this like weird
ethnic pedestal where she's kind of like mute, almost like

(29:09):
and just like miming all the time. Yeah, it was
like it's like yeah it was again and not that
every movie should cater to my exact like the languages
that I speak, but but particularly because it's like a
movie by like a legacy white guy. I was like
why did you do this? Like yeah, I don't know,
why is he the one to tell this story? Like

(29:31):
who who is James L. Brooks to be like, you know,
who knows exactly what it is to be a woman
from Mexico immigrating to the US? Me James L. Brooks,
Like like yeah, well, I'm thinking like this movie is
like a really good like case study on whiteness in
the same way maybe the White Lotus is because like

(29:55):
the person who made it, like who knows whiteness better
than James L. Brooks maybe you know, or or the
same thing with like I mean, Roma is a movie
in Mexico, but it's about like white Mexicans. And then
you're like realizing that like Mexicans can be white because
you're seeing it's like in black and white and you're
seeing like how much darker skinned the indigenous like Housekeeper is.

(30:18):
But like that movie was made by someone who like
grew up rich and white in Mexico and was like,
I want to examine and like interrogate this. So I
feel like the class keys are really like three dimensional
and I'm like, I feel like I know people like this.
And then Flood like her family, you just see them
like in like two minute births, like eating to Molly's right, right,

(30:40):
it's like you don't spend any time with her family, yeah,
and you spend so much time with the yeah, right
in the few scenes early on where you would get
some insight into Flora's life, like when she's communicating with
her daughter or her cousin Monica or something like that.

(31:00):
Because the movie isn't subtitled, it makes it kind of
unaccessible to your average American movie going audience member, which again,
it's not as though every movie needs to cater to
that person, but James L. Brooks movies do, so it's
just like confusing. Yeah, when you're releasing a James L.
Brooks movie into the US, like chances are you're again

(31:26):
average member of the audience speaks one language and it's English.
So yeah, that it was an interesting choice that I
don't think was super effective and only served to yeah,
just sort of like other floor more and not let
the audience get to know her and like understand what

(31:48):
she's dealing with and when she's going through. Yeah. Yeah,
I've always been like, um, like this is like the
fifth time I've watched this movie, and I'm always like
struck by how Florida is just such like a I
don't know this like Mexican sage who has she like
embodies like the best qualities of like a woman, which

(32:10):
is like like she's like the best mother and she's
like hervacious and she's sensitive and kind and like like
her personality is being like a womb like yeah, yeah, yeah,
she's very mommy. She's very mommy. She's so huge mommy. Yeah.
But I did I mean going back to where you started, Melissa,

(32:33):
I mean I think that like the relationship with Florida
and Christina is like so like that's one of the
most effective parts of the movie and anytime there's and
also just like the chemistry between those two actors was
so good and I wish, like there are so many
threads in this movie that were more interesting to me
than And it's not like I didn't want her to

(32:55):
have love, like I I also like whatever, like it's
MS and I, and to an extent, I do understand
what she and Adam Sandler saw in each other if
I really thought about it. I'm glad that the movie
is kind of like, well, obviously this is going to
work out because um, yeah, she's too good for and

(33:17):
he's a mess. But I mean I did see what
they saw in each other, but it just it felt
like the I really enjoyed scenes with Florida and Christina
and Florida and Bernie. I wish that you got more
with like Christina and Bernie. I thought that there was
like probably a cool dynamic there that you never really
got to see. There were some elements of Deborah that

(33:38):
was like, oh, this is like a good opportunity to
you know, interrogate whiteness and interrogate white women. And she
very very clearly, and the movie seems to know like
that she thinks that she is like the queen of
wokeness and is doing the right thing at all points,
when in fact, she can be extreme condescending. She'll shut

(34:01):
down conflict, she'll tell people how they feel. She's very entitled,
like all this stuff that is like, you know, very
worth exploring and then but then in other moments she
would be a cartoon character, and then it's like, well,
so what does she did, Like what are you trying
to say with her? Because no one like in some
scenes it was like, oh, she's like, I mean, like

(34:22):
whatever carening out before that was a popular term, and
then in other scenes, you're like, nobody has acted like
this in the history of the world, So like, what
do you not say every time you have an orgasm?
And then she like passed out like it was so

(34:44):
when she starts to cry, that scene was bananas. I mean,
it's like whatever, I'm absolutely flabbergasted by that sex scene.
All of the Adam Sandler reactions too, were like horrible,
Like the whole movie, He's made those noises. It's like
he just can't believe it. That's but you know, Jamie're right,

(35:08):
like this could have This movie could have been an
interesting opportunity to examine and criticize what a lot of
like rich white people do to marginalized communities, and especially
someone that they kind of like Deborah clearly see like
to her floor is like the help, you know, like

(35:31):
she's like she's so condescending to her she never makes
any effort to learn Spanish, like just it's this weird
power dynamic that could and should be examined and interrogated,
and the movie, I think does try to do that
to some extent, but where it lands, I'm just like, Okay,

(35:51):
what's the takeaway here? Exactly? Like Also, like one of
the many dropped threads of this movie was also between
like trying to contextualize who Debora is and why she
is the way she is, which honestly I didn't think
it was like completely necessary, but they try to be like, well,
her mother, like she's the child of an alcoholic, and

(36:14):
the movie tries to like contextualize her like hyper insecurity
through that lens, which is like, okay, I see, like
I thought it was super under explored, and then it
kind of ended in a joke or Cloris Leachman is
like I see what you're saying, but like shut up,
and that was the end of like that. But also
it seems to like conflate all this stuff, like she's like, yes,

(36:39):
Deborah's character is very insecure, and it is she is
like weaponizing that insecurity against everyone in her life, but
like her being the child of an alcoholic is not
making her racist like that, you know, like like deeply classist,
and I feel like it's like conflating all of those
issues with like, well she's very insecure. You're like, well,
there's a lot going on that's not right with Debra,

(37:01):
Like I don't know, Yeah, I feel like if the
movie could have been so much more about mothers and daughters.
It's like that's like my favorite part of it, I think,
you know, between Flood and Christina and like and then
also seeing like how the last generation is like dealing
with all of their mothers shit, you know, right, that

(37:23):
is a really good point that could have been the
focus of the movie, where it's like you have these
two sets of like mother daughter dynamics with Florida and
Christina and what they are dealing with as they navigate
the world, and then what are Debra and Bernie dealing
with as they navigate the world in there like much

(37:46):
more privileged position, and like an exploration of those dynamics
and how there are like similarities and differences between these
two pairs of people and like what might that look
like and what could that mean? And there's a lot
to explore there that could have been interesting and again
I think that the movie tries to start exploring something,

(38:06):
especially when it comes to this thing where Deborah is
hounding her daughter to lose weight, which is terrible, a
horrible thing for her to be doing. It's affecting Bernie
very significantly. It's affecting her husband because her husband hates
to see her treat her daughter that way. But then

(38:29):
that thread just kind of gets dropped and then there's
not that just like isn't part of the movie after
a while, so her daughter never gets to like heal
from that or like instead, I mean Florida like makes
her clothes bigger, and then that's I think supposed to be.
It is like the lesson. They're like, okay, if you're
if someone should be nice to you, Yeah, that takeaway

(38:54):
is confusing. And then a little I guess a little
bit later, Deborah really takes an interest in Christina, and
it almost and like sort of treating her as if like, oh,
this is the daughter I wish I had, because she's like,
you know, taking her shopping and taking her to get
her hair done and like all this stuff that I
think it's clear that Bernie would like to do with

(39:16):
her mom. But because she doesn't like fit the image
that Deborah has for what she wants her daughter to be.
She instead takes this interest in Christina, and it's just
like that's like such a devastating thing for Bernie to
have to deal with. And then that also just doesn't
really get explored. She's like fucking everyone over in that scene.

(39:36):
That was like, I was like, wow, this character is
playing like a game of for d chest of making
everyone unhappy, because I mean, it's exciting for Christina in
the moment, but also it's like Debor is just so
deeply selfish and everything she's doing there, I feel like
she she seems to like take this like real pleasure
and exerting control, over flow and like over feeling entitled

(40:03):
to her life in a way that the movie seems
aware of. But it just yeah, like it doesn't really
land anywhere. They're just sort of like, yeah, this lady's
fucked up, but like she like rejects her daughter, and
so it's like painful for Bernie to see that. Christina
isn't at a point at this point in the movie
where she understands that this like rich lady is exerting

(40:26):
her power over her for maybe not a completely altruistic
reason obviously, and she's like just showing how she can
control Flor's life again, Like that was so uh it
bothered me so much, like Devra sucks so bad. She
sucks so bad. I wonder if like her redemption is

(40:49):
supposed to be wrapped up and how at the end
she just says, I'm so glad that you came back,
like that's supposed to and it's like she's like giving
giving something I don't know, like she's like doing something
like not selfish for once, but like that's like the
other thing too, is like the where I don't know,

(41:09):
I guess I don't really want to talk about the
white lotus, but but like I think that that's like
an interesting parallel to draw here of like I get
like and it's kind of like a wash, but especially
because James L. Brooks is a white guy trying to
write a story about a marginalized character and about mother

(41:29):
daughter relationships. You know, it's not against the law. It
is certainly like we should like keep talking about it
because he misses some stuff. And I thought one of
the bigger misses, outside of clearly having more interest in
the white characters in his movie than the Mexican characters

(41:51):
that he claims that the movie is about. He also
seems to like let John off for it's like, oh,
Debra is the dev all, She's the most evil person
and like all the sins of richness and whiteness are
characteristics that she exhibits. And then John's just kind of
like this amazing guy. It's like it's like, well that's

(42:15):
not real, Like what, yeah, it's never examined to how
like maybe his career like made Deborah feel insignificant, like
because she keeps being like who am I? I don't
know who I am? And he's like, I got too
many stars on my my kitchen review, I'm too good

(42:36):
of a cook. God would be the same. And he
keeps like acting like he I don't know, Like as
he and floors, connection is like deepening. He keeps kind
of being like, I'm sorry about Deborah. There's really I
wish I could do something, And it's like, well, you
probably could do something, like why don't you try to

(42:58):
do I? Like it's like the Remolt. There are a
few different scenes where it's like the movie is just
like really trying to make him out to be this
like sweetheart, romantic hero who like I don't I don't know,
like yeah, and the John character is like I don't know.
There were some scenes where I was like, I see
what they see in each other, but then another scenes

(43:20):
I was like, he's creepy and he keeps trying to
talk to her while he's really drunk, Like yuh yeah,
I want to get into this, but let's take a
quick break first and then we'll come right back and
we're back. So yeah, the romance between Florida and John

(43:43):
this movie, like Bushevy, tests itself interestingly enough because he
looks like creepy? Uh do I want to rename it?
But it basically just like if you swap out the
like a supposedly romantic behavior that like a traditionally hot

(44:03):
guy is exhibiting in a movie, and you switch it
out with Steve bush Emy, would it be creepy? And
if it would be really creepy, then it fails the
test and it's a creepy interaction. So yeah, Like, so
a picture like The Notebook and instead of Ryan Gosling
like stalking Rachel McAdams, if it's Steve bush Emmy, is

(44:25):
it now much more clear that this behavior is extremely
creepy and stalkery. And if you clear, Steve Bishmmy is hot.
But just in terms of like that's how we've characterized
the test over the years. A listener had pitched, I
think instead of Steve wish Emmy Gritty the mascot for
that the Philadelphia is that the Philadelphia? Yeah, yeah, the

(44:47):
gritty test. Like, yeah, if you just like switch out,
that is maybe better because it's like, you know, Steve
Bishemy is hot. But yeah, this like until we come
up for a with a better name for that test,
this movie fails that and also like Out of Sailor
like looks and behaves kind of creepy for the whole movie,
so you don't even really need to like stretch your imagination. Yeah,

(45:08):
I feel like John supposed to be bashful, but instead
he's just like about to explode all the time, or
he's just like is or is the same behavior as
when you're like hiding a Boner's like I don't know,
he's just like he's not giving me stability. He's not
He has so many weird outbursts that I think are

(45:30):
supposed to be comedic, but I'm just like, again, the
tone is so weird that I'm like, I was I
supposed to laugh at that? I don't know, but she's
like charmed. She's ching right, It's so confusing. Okay, So here,
as far as what I could tell, here is kind
of the trajectory of this romance between Floda and John.

(45:51):
So it starts where John is giving her a ride
to the bus stop. He is crying because you saw
how his wife had just treated their daughter about like
you know, buying her those closer too small and be
waiting for her for her weight, and it really affects John,
and Florida is like impressed that he seems to be

(46:12):
emotionally open and vulnerable. There's voiceover from Christina saying it's
it's like the opposite of the like quote Latin macho
that Florida is used to and that he seems to
quote have the emotions of a Mexican woman. Where obviously
that framing is not great, but James L. Brooks wrote

(46:35):
that down like yeah, he was like yes, cut and print.
I like when he's wiping his tears away with the
seat belt, that's funny. That was kind of funny. It's
like their above is in this movie that are like
and definitely the right kind of funny for the kind
of movie. It was, yeah, at least yeah, closer than

(46:59):
the than the orgasm scene. True, So this didn't bother
me because, well, aside from the way that some of
this voiceover is written, but the fact that Florida is
impressed and intrigued by John's emotional openness and vulnerability is

(47:23):
like something that we should as a society value more
in men, especially because men are so conditioned to be
emotionally repressed and withdrawn and all this stuff. So that
I was like, Okay, I understand that is a reason
why Florida would be interested. And also I thought that
that even though it was like another threat that I
felt like it was dropped, that felt like a really

(47:44):
like setting something up for for Florida and Christina that
just kind of went away. But that opening scene where
you find out that Florida is not very emotionally open
and she's like pushing tears back at the Christina's a being,
and like I thought, I was like, oh, okay, yeah,

(48:06):
and like not even able to like show her emotional
vulnerability in front of her daughter, She like runs out
of the room if she starts to cry so that
her daughter can't see her be emotional, and then at
the end she cries finally she doesn't want to be
like her. I wish that there was like I just
wish that we got to know more about Florida. I

(48:30):
feel like that moment should have like I mean, it's
still hit from me because I just have a lot
of it, just like mommy, Like yeah, it's like that's
the way that the love story worked for me. Was like, Oh,
they see things. I mean like she sees an emotional
vulnerability in him that she can't do herself, and I

(48:54):
feel like that is very attractive sometimes where you're like,
oh my god, look at you expressing yourself. I can't
do that. Imagine if I, yeah, give me a little kiss.
Their main thing is like how they they like bond
over how they want to be parents, I guess, And
also I guess that's how sometimes people get together. I

(49:14):
don't know, they like love their kids and they hate
Deborah and that's enough to build a relationship on right,
Because there's that scene where they're on the beach and
Florida confides in John because she's like, hey, it seems
like your wife is kind of like meddling in my
daughter's life. And he's like, yeah, I feel really weird

(49:36):
about it too, And then she says something like I've
never met a man who can put himself in my
place like you do. And I was a little unclear.
I was like, does she mean like put But I
think what she means is like put himself in her
shoes and like empathize and understand where she's coming from, right, Okay?
So I was like, Okay, that's also like a compelling

(49:58):
reason to have an emotional connection that tracks for me.
But then he also immediately after that, she's like standing
in the on like the windy beach, and then he
screams at her. He's like get out of the wind.
And it's like what is like? So there's weird stuff

(50:18):
like that, And then to me, the kind of the
final beat that makes us know like oh wow, like yep,
they're falling in love is a scene that does not
work for me. Where they're arguing. She's calling him out
for giving her daughter that money without consulting her first,

(50:39):
and he's like, well, you're a hypocrite because you meddled
in my daughter's life by altering the jacket and she's like, Yep,
you're right. I'm a hypocrite. I also interfered there's no difference, Um,
you're right, and he's like, I'm horny. What you're not
arguing with me, you're telling me that I'm right. I

(51:00):
like disagree with that. I do think it's different. Like
I feel like there's there's like multiple points where they're
like that completely ignores like the power dynamic that exists
between the two of them, that like ignores the tent
behind what they were trying to do. It ignores like
the like gravity of the task where it's like and
like the gendered nature of the task, like yeah, sewing

(51:24):
versus like he's like the man of the house who
provides for everyone. Yeah. Yeah. It's like I was like,
I I appreciate about how Flora's character is written that
she is very clear about what her values are, like
she will not accept a violation of about well she

(51:46):
does because she's repeatedly pressured to not quit the job,
but she's willing to communicate like, hey, that wasn't okay
with me, do not do that again, which is great,
But then also yeah, and that scene knows like, oh,
don't give up that point it is different. It is different, yes,
And then something very weird to me happens where when

(52:09):
he takes her to his restaurant and he's saying, I
love you, You're beautiful, let's kiss each other. They we
should name Agender after you. She at that point does
not know that Deborah was cheating on John, so as
far as she knows, their marriage is fine. And she's

(52:31):
written to be the type of person who would not
interfere in a marriage and like not be willing to
kiss him or engage with him in any romantic way,
because I mean, maybe I'm misreading her character. Again, we
don't know that much about her, but I feel like,
but we do know, she would be like, no, you're married,
I'm not gonna engage with this. But instead she she

(52:54):
kisses him, and then she's like they, you know, canoodle
all night, and then she says I love you. And
it's like, first of all, I understand you like admiring
him for a few different things he said and done
over the movie, but like, you love this guy. Okay.
It makes me so sad for her. I'm like, all

(53:16):
these men in your life must suck, right, if this
is the wather you're like, this is the most scene
I've ever felt. You're like, no, we gotta. But it
didn't make any sense that she was engaging with this
like romantic moment because again, she seems to me like
the person type of person who would be like, no,

(53:37):
you're married and I work for you. Also like this
is inappropriate, like you're my employer, your wife is my employer,
Like this is not appropriate, and instead she's like kiss, kiss,
I love you. And then she's like I have to quit, right,
and then like she has to give up her livelihood.

(53:57):
It's not fair, like yeah, like bay start, I feel
like based on what we know about this character, like
it's just I don't know. And then the way that
it felt like every reference to Latin manhood and masculinity
was so written by James L. Brooks. It really hated
Latin men. Yeah, except for that goofy guy who was

(54:19):
like all translate forever when he looks at her bullies. Yeah,
I was like, was this a call back to the
Selena movie where someone was like anything for Selena's It's
that It's really felt like that. Oh yeah it does
kind of, yeah it does, right, But yeah, I felt
like the James L. Brooks writing kept in moments where

(54:40):
he couldn't think of a way to make John seemed
like a viable romantic interest. There would just be a
voice over line that was like punching down at Latin
men and Latin masculinity to be like, so, of course
it makes sense that you would want to date this guy.
It's like it just wasn't right necessary additors, like it

(55:02):
just wasn't necessary. I'm nervous about how formative this movie
was for the people I date. I'm like, I was like, yeah, damn,
I just like listened to it. I only date like explosive,
sensitive white men. It's a bad vibe, bad horrible vibes.

(55:23):
James L. Brooks, What the hell James Brooks has to
sent you a personalized college application of apology? That framing
device of this movie, I mean, it does it does?
It did make me cry. So there did cry. I
did cry. I'm I'm laughing. And here's why I'm laughing

(55:44):
because Christina laughing like Teleoni happy an Orgasa. Yeah, we
I'm laughing because like Christina's college admission essay as about
this or which is her mother's affair, Mother's like the
weird like this weird moment in her mother's life that

(56:06):
like kind of doesn't really have anything to do with anything,
Like it's just like I think it's a very like
how I Met your mother kind of framing device. We
were like, no child would have this deep and interest
in their parents sex lives. Gross. But who is she
the Olsen twins trying to get her their dad to
hook up with somebody fieldboard dad reference. I love it. Uh,

(56:32):
this is a quick thing, but one that it was
like I paused the movie and did some math, and
it wasn't encouraging math. This scene where Deborah and Flora
and um what is her cousin's name, Monica all meet
for the job interview. First of all, I think that
I think that someone already said this, but like Monica

(56:53):
should have just been a character in the movie like
that we saw with regularity, like to give their lives
like more shape and death ended. She was just I mean,
like I really enjoyed the actress who played her, But
that scene where Florida is negotiating a salary, I was

(57:15):
trying to put myself in two thousand four brains and
it's still like not very helpful. Where you know, we
were told that she and Christina need four fifty dollars
a week to survive, which is what they're doing. And
then when Deborah asks what do you want? And then
kind of like Cheryl Sandberg's for a second, and it's

(57:36):
like you gotta ask her what is worth but you
can't ask for more than you're worth it then you're
a bitch or like whatever. She said, like, yeah, you're
taking advantage, right, So so she's like being Cheryl Sandberg.
And then I think it's Floorda who says a thousand
dollars a week, which is like and then she's like

(57:56):
that's a joke, just kidding, joke, Like it's the joke,
but she's being asked to work a seventy two hour
a week. That's like not unreasonable, Like it just if
you break that down, because I I like went back
and rewatched the scene and crunch some numbers where Tleoni
was like, I need you to work six days a week,
twelve hours a day. How much do you want per week?

(58:17):
One thousand dollars a week. What she ends up getting
a six fifty a week, which that math boils down
to about nine dollars an hour. So okay, wait, one
thousand to find it by seventy two. That would be
less than fourteen dollars an hour for one thousand dollars
a week. So it's like this bizarro like joke that

(58:40):
James Albrooks is making it Like how dare like Flora
asked for one thousand dollars a week? Is like still
underneath it's and I know, like two thousand four many
is is a little different for money, but like not
by much. And for a movie that's so invested in
talking about class, it seems it's it seems really like

(59:03):
I don't know, off, Yeah, why isn't that Also if
she is working somewhere between like eight and twelve hours
a day and it seems like Florida is there a
lot because we only ever see her there really and
never in her home with Christina, that also could be

(59:24):
something you mind for tension and conflict, Like what is
Florida working twelve hour days, six days a week? What
is that doing to her relationship with her daughter? Like
she's hardly going to be home then for her? And
like what does like can we explore that and like
examine that? But the movie again doesn't really have any
interest in in her interior life and the motivation for

(59:50):
her to work one job is just because her she
saw a boy like touch her daughter's ass, right, and
then it was like, but you're not at home that
much still, right, and you're community Like the commutes seemed
pretty severe back and forth. The commute seems awful. A
mile to the bus stop. Why? And then I'm guessing, yeah,

(01:00:11):
we don't ever learn what neighborhood Florida and Christina live
in in l A. But it's probably pretty far from
the very upscale neighborhood that the class keys live in.
I thought it was like there, I mean, whatever, now
we're just getting into l A talk. But it's it
seemed like they were either downtown or on the east Side,
which yeah, and then like Adam Sandler and Taileani or

(01:00:34):
like living out this fucking like Westwood Beverly Hills, like
Beverly Hills something. As a metro user, that is an
hour and a half commute if you're going clear across
town like that. Anyways, Yeah, I didn't that didn't even
really connect for me. I like, she's probably not getting
like that much more time with her daughter. I mean,

(01:00:55):
I understand why she makes the decision she makes, but
I just thought it was like, especially for like a
male writer to make that decision. It just I didn't
like quite get it. Yeah, that was bizarre, but whatever,
that was just kind of like a weird writing choice
that I'm like, this guy is definitely a guy. Yeah,
I could have gone it could have really done something

(01:01:17):
special talking about like women's labor, you know, and like
emotional labor between like what Clarence Leachman is doing at
the end with Haley Oni and being like like, let
me give this to you as as a mother, you know,
and and didn't. Yeah, again, every thread just kind of
is loose to begin with and then never ties up

(01:01:40):
in any way or gets fully explored. Still cried my
eyes out, like yeah, that's it's like this James Alberg's
was weird for this one. But I also do think
that it's like he knows how to make people cry
a lot, very good at that. And it's also I mean,

(01:02:03):
I don't know, like this is very clearly not his
story to tell, and there was I guess I wasn't
super surprised to see in two thousand four that there
was absolutely no real pushback about the fact that he
was doing this because I feel like it's a very
like a very two thousand four but still like a
contemporary problem as well. Of but he could make a

(01:02:27):
movie of this budget and scale that featured like an
immigrant woman as a protagonist, but that it's like this
monkey's post situation where it's like, but he can't do that,
he can't execute that well based on who he is,
and so it's like, I don't know, it's frustrating. Yeah,
I want to talk about the casting of Passa Vega

(01:02:53):
who plays Flooreda. She's from Spain. Interesting, so she's not
from Mexico and she looks so much like Penelope Cruz.
She does look remarkably like Penelope Cruise yes, who is
also from Spain. Um, so obviously there are a lot
of Mexican people who are of white European descent. However,

(01:03:17):
this movie seems to me to code floor as a
brown person, a person of color, even though she is
a white Spaniard European. So it's not a great casting
choice to cast this white European actor code her as

(01:03:39):
a person of color. There are plenty of Mexican actors
who could have been cast in this role and then
would have been able to like bring like the experience
of a Mexican person or a Mexican American immigrant to
their role and like have that be a part of
the the role in character. But that is not what

(01:04:02):
happened in the casting. Yeah, I had no idea she
was from Spain. Oh my god, I was duped. I
feel like they she's like damn, I know, I didn't
learn that until this morning. Like yeah, I also think
there's this like there's a really weird thing with like
like her beauty in the movie, where like I mean,

(01:04:25):
she's like so beautiful, but that's like her whole Like
she's like beautiful in doing housework and she's like beautiful
and being a mother, and like Adam Sandler seems to
only like say that she is beautiful, and so does
Deborah too, Like Depa is constantly commenting on her appearance
and Christina's in a way that almost feels fetishy to me,

(01:04:47):
where they're like, look at this like exotic beauty that
you are this family, Like yeah, very much exotifies if
that's a word Florida and Christie, you know, especially there's
that scene where Deborah is introducing Christina to the like
the director of this private school. And then she has

(01:05:08):
a little aside with this director who is a white woman,
and says like oh yeah, like she's great, she's so smart,
she's so bright, and she's Hispanic. She like whispers in
her ear as if like isn't she gorgeous? Hispanic? Right,
and like look at the It's almost like, look at
the diversity you would bring into the school, look at
my little project. Like she's like very much, which at

(01:05:30):
least the writing seems self aware of of, like Debora
is not supposed to seem right for that, like she's
clearly wrong. And yeah, I mean especially I don't know,
Devora is just so where like with Debra, it's again
like a one two punch of racism and like exoticizing
Christina and then also her like own internalized misogyny comes

(01:05:54):
out in those moments too, because she can only understand
women via commenting on and criticizing their appearance, which is
like present in her how she relates to Florida and Christina,
and also how she relates to her daughter like and herself,
like with the running and all like the obsessive like

(01:06:15):
like maintenance of her body, which is like such a
I don't know. I guess like I feel like I'll
recommend it for the five million time on the on
this show, but fearing the black body and like how
American women, especially white American women, are like trained to
be hyper vigilant towards their own bodies and punish other
bodies that don't look like there isn't just all this

(01:06:37):
just shit that is so present in her character. It's
just so I feel like voiceover Christina goes into that
too and seems to like be aware of like this
like sickness that American women have with like being thin.
But I feel I feel like initially like I'm maybe

(01:06:58):
giving the movie too much credit being look how where
they are of like you know, what the what's wrong
with like white American woman? But I feel like making
Tayley only like such a cartoon of like a Karen
before that was a term like it is almost like racist,
but not towards her, like towards flowed, because if it

(01:07:19):
just makes flow to seem more amazing and like what
is the word there's like a word for this where
she's just like I don't know, she's just like infinitely
better because of her quote unquote brownness and her like
natural like this like natural nous that seems to be
like linked to her ethnicity. You know, yeah, that's yeah.
I mean it's because I'm trying to remember the way

(01:07:41):
that that line of voiceover plays out. But oh I
wrote it all down, I trans correct ready, But I
feel like, you know, what you're describing is like she
just like like the movie starts to go somewhere with
commenting on that hyper vigilance. Yeah, and then yeah it
turns to it what's the line here? It is there

(01:08:03):
was one particular cultural difference which I wish to explore
academically at Princeton because this is a support of her admissions. Essay.
They had to remind you every once in a while, Um,
American women, I believe, actually feel the same as Hispanic
women about weight, a desire for the comfort of fullness.
And when that desire is suppressed for style and deprivation

(01:08:27):
allowed to rule dieting, exercising, American women become afraid of
everything associated with being curvacious, such as wantonness, lustfulness, sex, food, motherhood,
all that is best in life. So which is just
like James L. Brooks is and so it it does.

(01:08:50):
I mean most I'm curious as to your thoughts too
of it. Yeah, it to me came off as like
just very over generalizing and very like, I don't know,
like mothering. Yeah, I mean I think like the thing
that this movie is like, I feel like James L.
Brooks can like really like right his way out of anything.

(01:09:11):
Like he's like seems like a very like beautiful like writer.
But that sentence, like that sentence is really beautiful and
it doesn't make any sense, like is he saying like
is he saying like like Mexican women also are like
this or that they're not like this. I'm not right.
It seems very reductive where he's just like womanhood equals

(01:09:33):
curvaceous equals motherhood equals awesome. It's like those womb equals
eating Like yeah, life doesn't make a lot of sense,
so I know, and you get like tricked listening to
it because you're like, damn, like that's some bars there
what he's saying, and you're like, wait, what what she's saying?

(01:09:56):
I'm already like yeah, like could he tell us what
he's saying? Here? There was this is I guess just
kind of because we have for some reason covered to
James Brooks written directed movies on the show pretty recently,
so to our listeners, we'll stop doing that. What else
has he done? He did Broadcast News, which we covered

(01:10:18):
with Dave Schilling, a movie I like a lot, but
I felt like there was like I guess, just like
knowing his writing style. This has nothing to do with anything,
but I was getting kind of like Holly Hunter neurotic woman,
quote unquote, and which is how James Brooks rights women.
I was getting Holly Hunter neurotic woman vibes from Deborah,
but like written way more scattered and all over the place,

(01:10:41):
because I feel like the Holly Hunter character and Broadcast
News is like very nervous and just like kind of
this vibrating nerve. But at least in that movie we
talked whatever. You can listen to the episode if you want,
but like it at least mostly made sense and was contextualized.
But for Deborah, it's like she's just all over the place,
like you just don't know. James Brooks thinks women are

(01:11:04):
very neurotic. He does, and he's obsessed with the idea
of a woman like going somewhere in private and bursting
out into tears for a few moments and then coming
back in the room because that is also what Holly
Hunter does throughout the movie and what we see Florida
do at the very beginning. Yeah. Wow, wow. The more

(01:11:27):
we talked about, I mean, and again I guess this
is this is just like women as James Brooks perceives them.
But I wish that that trait, that FLOORI has of
compartmentalizing her feelings for the benefit of her daughter, Like
I feel like that could have been a whole movie,
Like getting back to what we're talking about, this movie

(01:11:48):
could be about two very very different families of women
and why they deal with their ship the way they
deal with it, and like how and that would have
been cool. Yeah. Yeah, It feel like you don't get
a lot of like protagonists who are women, which you
could say Flora is or isn't, depending on you know,

(01:12:08):
your read of the movie. I think she's supposed to be.
But you don't like get a lot of protagonists who
are like women who do not express every emotion they're having.
Like it just feels like a more rare thing, which
I don't know. I am a woman that does express
every emotion. I'm having so bad writing, but Florida is

(01:12:30):
you know, I don't know what what I have a question.
I have two questions. One where does the sun go?
He's in the movie for like to see so random
you get disappeared random. He just like keeps not being
there when you would expect a young nine year old
kid to be at home. That story actually that storyline

(01:12:53):
got cut. He was abducted in the middle of a movie.
But they're just like, like, we've too much, too many characters. Yeah,
it doesn't like James Brooks realized in the middle of
the movie that there were way too many characters. He's like,
they're not going to notice. Well, I noticed. Second question,
what is going on with the whole like Chum the

(01:13:16):
dog and the fetch thing. I thought that was going
to like pay off in some way or that was
going to be a thing. But that's just like a
weird detail that gets introduced and then like they do
nothing with. I thought that that was just a really
heavy handed way of saying that Florida is not like
other girls. She throws the ball, yeah, or she's like

(01:13:37):
more in touch with like nature and like nurturing, you know, yeah,
like could be like Disney princes can like speak to animals.
I guess I do see it being like that, which
is like, what the hell? First of all, why do
you feel the need to say that? It's like, what
a weird way to say it. Also, there's a scene

(01:14:00):
where Florida is at the classkey house in theory, working,
but she's putting together a puzzle. Did anyone notice this?
She's putting a jigsaw puzzle together? And it's like they're
just like, look busy, right, yeah, can't you? Can't you
send her home so if she can spend time with
her daughter, Like what the what are you making her

(01:14:21):
put a puzzle together for her? Like? What the fuck? Anyway,
I hate this movie. That's Debora. That's Devora being a
control free. Another thing that I thought was like at
least like it knew what it was doing a little
more than other scenes was that scene that it's just
like excruciating to watch. It's when Deborah is trying to

(01:14:42):
convince Floor that she needs to come on the summer
trip and she can't communicate with Floor. She says like,
you still haven't learned English, and then she's like I
have to learn how to say that in Spanish, being
like ha ha, I refuse to learn Spanish and that's funny,
and then you know, like grabs the nearest Spanish speaker

(01:15:05):
and it was like translate for me right now, so
I can tell Florida what to do, and like just
the way that she I mean had a lot of
talk about how shitty, but like this scene I just
hated her so much, where Florida is setting a boundary.
She's like, no, I can't do that, like I have
a daughter, and Deborah is like hurt that she didn't

(01:15:27):
know that Florida had a daughter, even though it's like
you never made any effort to like try to actually
communicate with her about anything. Did you ever ask her
about her family? And also and then Cloris Leachman kind
of like low key comes to the rescue and it's like, well,
if she didn't tell you that, she's probably really private
and like I'll drive her home and like kind of

(01:15:49):
was like, which, I mean, she probably shouldn't. She drinks,
she probably can't drive. But then it's like, I hope
this was intentional. I think it was where Deborah like
is so insulted that Florida is like talking to her
like she's an employer and not a friend, because that
is their relationship that Deborah is like, well, now I

(01:16:11):
need to punish you, and you have to come live
with me, and you have to like be close to me,
and I have to have access to all areas of
your life. Creepy her, just creepy, Debora tentacles. I know,
a true villain, the true villain of the movie. But
John's an amazing guy. Why does he like her? And

(01:16:31):
then she's like, I don't want to think that you're
out of your mind for being in love with me,
But it's like he is. Yeah, there's another quick moment
that I feel like again, the movie starts to set
up a thing that could have been explored and interesting
commentary could have been made about it, where Deborah and
John are like not on the same page ever with

(01:16:54):
their parenting tactics, and this is something that Debora keeps
like hounding John about, like need to be on the
same page. And we as the audience, are meant to
identify with John and his approach because again, Deborah, because
she's a woman written by James L. Brooks, is written
to be quote unquote hysterical. So but she says, you

(01:17:18):
told our son that you're not mad at him, and
I am mad at him for something that we don't
know what the son did that never even becomes clear.
We have no idea. But then he got kidnapped and
that he's abducted, and then we never hear from him again.
But she's calling out her husband for making her seem

(01:17:39):
like the bad guy because she's taking one approach, and
he seems like the good guy because he's not mad
at their son. And like, that's often a dynamic that
plays out in hetero marriages with children, where like, you know,
we've talked about this a lot on the podcast, where
you know, women, because they're conditioned to be the kind
of more disciplinary just like more active and present parent,

(01:18:03):
they often have to do the more kind of disciplinary stuff,
whereas dads are sort of expected to be more Oh,
I'm the I'm the goof, I'm the like we throw
balls around and we play catch and do fun stuff.
And but again that's just referenced in one scene, and
it just feel like the movie falls on the side
of like Debrah is being hysterical for bringing it up,

(01:18:27):
where like Debra is wrong for bringing most things up.
But that thing wasn't a thing that felt like it
was almost like the way that the performance was we
have no context, right, Yeah, yeah, that's the this movie
in a nutshell to me, like threads or like little

(01:18:48):
seeds get planted that could have been interesting things to explore,
but the execution on nearly everything is completely ineffective. Yeah,
and maybe just says more about like us and our family.
I'm just like, I think I love the movie because
I love my family, and I'm like, whoa, um, sure,

(01:19:10):
and that's fair, Yeah that makes sense. But I also like,
I don't know, there's like I wish that we got
to spend more time with Christina as well. That was
one of my big things where Christina doesn't become an
important part of the movie until like maybe almost halfway through,
like not until the Summer Trip do we really see her.

(01:19:32):
We don't know what she's up to, because this movie
is so like preoccupied with spending time with this rich
white family and how Florida is interacting with them that
we don't see. We hear Christina all the time, but
we don't see her for like twenty minutes at one point.
And again it's like I don't know, Like it's she's

(01:19:54):
such a rich character who's so relatable to so many people.
I mean, like Melissa, you were saying, like she reminded
you of your sister in some ways, And it just
seems like a lost opportunity to show and also a
lost opportunity to give Flora's character more depth because we
could see, you know, who is Christina with when Florida

(01:20:15):
has to be at work all the time, Like, how
does she relate to Monica, how does she relate to
the family, Like what what's going on with Christina? And
we don't We only like the movie only becomes interested
in what is going on in her life once she
like enters the assimilation zone, and the movie does seem
to be like ultimately like this assimilation is like not

(01:20:38):
a positive thing for her, but it doesn't show you
I don't know. Yeah, the takeaway again, I'm just like,
you tried, movie, but you didn't really cross the finish line.
Shout out though to Shelby Bruce, who plays Christina, who
gave I think an incredib bold performance, especially during that

(01:21:01):
scene where she is translating for her mom with the
whole seed glass thing and she's like really like communicating
her mom's like intent and but like she's having to
talk about herself, but because the conversation is about her,
but she's like having to refer to herself and like

(01:21:22):
the third person because of the translation. It's really like
it's I just like the rhythm of that scene. That
was probably my favorite, the only scene I enjoyed in
the movie, to be Frank, because of her like incredible performance.
She's so good and when she's like publicly scorning her mom,
I have like a visceral reaction to that, like I'm
so embarrassed. Yeah, like I'll never forgive you for the Yeah,

(01:21:46):
she's having a Debora tantrum, She's going Deborah, She's turning Deborah.
That scene, I thought, Yeah, that scene was really really
like well executed and and She'll be Bruce is the
best part of it where I don't know, I mean,
I have never been in a position where I had

(01:22:07):
to translate between people, much less my own family, So
it's not something that I personally understand, but it just
it's I felt like the scene did get across what
a stressful and kind of unfair experience that is for
Christina to have to mediate a discussion about herself that

(01:22:28):
she doesn't have any saying like there was no opportunity
in that argument for Christina to say how she was feeling,
because the task at hand was to communicate how her
mother was feeling and then communicate back how Adam Sandler
was receiving it. And it's just like, ah, well, someone
asked Christina what is on her mind? Like she's doing

(01:22:51):
a lot of heavy lifting here for this weird romance, right,
but that scene, Yeah, that seems very well acted. I
was going that I hope that she just like didn't
feel like acting anymore. But she's she's not acting anymore. Really. Yeah,
but she did sign a deal with Claire's Boutique to
have her own jewelry line, which launched in September two

(01:23:13):
thousand six. Oh, she's still living off of that. Something
I realized is that, for again, a movie that is
supposed to be focusing on this protagonist who is an
immigrant from Mexico, we learn nothing about Mexican culture, even

(01:23:35):
though it's clear that the character like her heritage is
very important to her, and that there's like voice over
in the beginning that says, like, my mother kept me
in Mexico for as long as possible to like connect
me with my Latin roots. And then when they moved
to the US, they moved to a neighborhood of Los
Angeles that seems to be predominantly other Mexican immigrants living

(01:24:00):
in that neighborhood. And again she keeps speaking the language.
She it takes her years to start to even be
motivated to learn English. So there's like all these these
indicators that her Mexican heritage is very important to floor,
and yet the movie doesn't tell the audience anything about
the culture. And I think it's just because like it

(01:24:23):
doesn't doesn't care. Yeah, I mean it did. Seems like Melissa,
you said this earlier, where it's like the most you
see of the culture that we're told repeatedly is so
important to Florida is a cutaway to a party with
characters we don't know eating tamales, and like that is

(01:24:44):
all he was able to do. It seems like there
wasn't even like Google involved. I don't know, Like, yeah,
it's just like seconds. It's like there's not enough time
in this two hour movie. We have to have a
whole subplot with this review of his restaurant, which is Geez,

(01:25:04):
the restaurant you could cut out the restaurant. It's so bizarre,
but I don't hate it, but it's like whatever, like
that that time could be better used for so many things,
And it's like that in particular, it is like James L.
Brooks could have gotten this movie made and done the
bare minimum of like hiring a co writer who was Mexican,

(01:25:30):
like collaborating instead of being like a James L. Brooks
film about something that I'm saying it's about but actually
it isn't. Like that's not too much to ask because
I was really curious about like because it seems like
and I don't want to give him too much credit.
I'm trying to be careful, Like it does seem like
James L. Brooks, even when like when he misses the

(01:25:52):
mark a lot, but it doesn't seem like it's ever
coming from a place of cruelty. It seems like it's
usually from a place of ignorance and kind of like
thinking he knows more than he actually does. Yeah, and
like kind of like Hubris of like, well, it's a
James L. Brooks movie. I can't collaborate with a second person,
you know, who knows what they're talking about and can

(01:26:12):
write like so James L. Brooks did not do much
press for this movie, but I was looking for an
interview just to be like, what was his research process?
Was there a research process? What work went into writing
this script? Because it's so all over the place. And
he says that he did which and this kind of
made me laugh. He said that he did research for

(01:26:33):
this movie for a year a year, Like what does
that mean? He Okay, so he like live in l A.
It's like that exactly. So did he just like exploit
the labor of a Mexican immigrant as his housekeeper for
a year like that? So what he did? I'll read
it to you. It's a very it's a roller coaster

(01:26:54):
of a quote, so I'll just read it to you.
This is an interview he did when the movie came
out into as it for person asks how much research
do you do for a character? James Brooks says, enormous, enormous, enormous,
sitting around table, sitting at my home, gathering women, hearing
great lines, seeing women with their children, having the kids translate,

(01:27:15):
talking to them about that experience that was just an
accident when the kids were there with their mother one
day and that led to being the most important part
of the story. Maybe hundreds of women, notebooks filled with transcripts,
almost of them in Spanish, which I don't speak, with
somebody translating for me. And the nights when you get loose,
the nights, when you do it at night and you're
just sitting around and it goes on and just when

(01:27:36):
it stops being formal, and some of the best of
it is you're sitting back, like at this certain point
instead of asking questions, and they're just talking to each
other and somebody's just telling you what they're saying, and
it's great. There was a nineteen year old mother of
a two year old I met, and she said this
extraordinary thing. I had the line in the movie, and
I had to cut it out because I didn't shoot
the scene. But she said that she well, she was

(01:27:58):
a very attractive woman, and she said the next time
she had a man who was viable at all, that
she'd instead of dating him and finding out these facts
about him, she'd want to take him to the park
with her kids, see him interact with her kid, and
make her decision on the guy based only on that.
And that became the heartbeat that I kept on talking
to within the movie. The quote goes on, I find

(01:28:21):
this so weird and confusing, where he just makes it
sound like he was inviting women to his house and
write like it just sounds at night. I have so
many questions, like he should have just gotten like a

(01:28:41):
co writer, or like just funded this movie and not
made it himself. Like, oh my god. That yeah, So
that was that was his research process, was women coming
over his house and then him hiring a translator to
write down what they said and then putting that in
the movie, which is also like exploitative in itself, like

(01:29:01):
deeply exploitative, and like were the people he was talking
to compensated where they credited? I'm assuming not. Who is
the nineteen year old mom who said something that inspired
the whole movie? Yeah? What the FuG? Yeah? So I
got my answer, but it was very upsetting. So that's unfortunate.

(01:29:25):
Look into what he meant by the term research. What
he thinks is research, which is just exploiting women that
he encourages to come to his house. Just hire a
co writer. What the fuck are you doing? Man? Horrible? Yeah,
so sorry sorry for bringing the vibe down with that,

(01:29:47):
but I just was like, damn, no, my my world
has been rock. No one's read that interview in seventeen years,
and I feel like me to unearth it. Does anyone
have anything they'd like to talk about? I think I
don't think so. Yeah. Well, Um, does the movie pass

(01:30:09):
the Bechel test? Yeah? It does? Right, Yeah, I think
a lot of like like less so as the movie
goes on. But at the beginning it passes a lot,
right because the focus. I mean there are and there
are different combinations where of course Florida and Christina, Christina
and Debora, Debora and Bernice. You know, there's different combinations

(01:30:33):
Laman and various characters, right right, right right, But yeah,
you're right. As the movie goes on and the focus
becomes about again a romance that I could not be
less compelled by. Yeah, that these other kind of interactions
drop off a bit, but yeah, it does. It does pass. Um.

(01:30:56):
Women are interacting quite a bit, and often about the
very mundane things that this movie is about. I've never
sea glass. Why is there a twenty minute segment about
finding sea glass in the sand? It's a medical It's
it's like so mundane that it sounds like James el

(01:31:18):
Brooks had done it himself. Like it's too specific, right,
very very weird, confusing, and yet I feel like it's like,
I don't know, I would I would definitely categorize this
movie under the very overused term problematic fave, problematic fave.

(01:31:38):
For me, it's a problematic least fase. Yeah, he's edgy,
that's Kitla. That's the kind of edgy content you can
expect on this show. Yeah, we're like, I did not
like it, um the Yeah, this movie. It's just like
I want James L. Brooks to answer for his research process. Yeah,

(01:32:01):
as far as our nipple scale goes zero to five nipples.
Based on examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens,
I feel like I and I I hated the movie
so much that this might cloud my judgment, But I
feel like I would still only give it like maybe

(01:32:22):
a one and a half nipples, because again, it does
attempt to make some commentary. And then, like you said,
the intentions never seemed to be malicious or like a
deliberate punching down the way a lot of comedies, although
I would not classify this movie as a comedy except

(01:32:44):
for that one scene. Except for the week I had
an orgasa there he goes, this lady had two babies
and she's still keeping it tight. I'm like, what the
fun is going? Oh my god, and I'm something's just
like sleep the whole He's asleep and away, which honestly,

(01:33:05):
there's worst ways to be. Yeah, so I think there's
an effort made, but it's just that that effort was
not not good. It was not executed well, and just
between a lot of like threads that get dropped and
some weird coding and casting stuff. The class commentary is

(01:33:30):
a bit more effective for me, but again, the movie
is so scattered and choppy narratively that I don't know
what the takeaway is and it's just a big old
mess for me. UM. I do appreciate and completely see

(01:33:51):
how families and an individuals UM could see themselves represented
in a movie like especially because so few movies, especially
ones that are like mainstream theatrical releases, and not many
of them, deal with the experience of an immigrant family.

(01:34:13):
I would argue that this one barely explores that because
so much of the focus is still on the classkey
drama that's going on. But I still understand that there
is some degree of representation that people can see themselves in.
So I don't want to like diminish that or take
that away from anyone. But luckily it's not two thousand

(01:34:36):
four anymore, and representation in that regard has been getting
slightly better in the years scenes. So I'm only going
to give it one and a half nipples, and I
will give one to Christina and I will give my
half nipple to floor. I feel like being overly nostalgic

(01:35:01):
by but like to like I want to go to
you know, I think that this like movie is very
much what is wrong with It is very glaringly wrong.
And the more you learn about the production, the it
becomes why it's coming off the way it's coming off,
and like what like I do agree that it's like

(01:35:22):
James Brooks wasn't approaching this material with malicious intent, but
it was like it's clear that he's most interested in
the Adam Sandler character, in which case, like right, it
like that's a different movie, make a different movie, or again,
like hire a co writer who is interested in who

(01:35:43):
you're claiming is your protagonist, because he just like seems
interested in you know again, I mean I can't really
speak to his intent because he didn't do any interviews
about this movie except the one weird one, but like
weird that it does seem like he takes steps to
other floor in any ways and ways that I think
he views this very complimentary and like, no, I'm not

(01:36:05):
uthering her. I'm saying that she's absolutely perfect and the
ultimate mommy. And it's like, well, that's other here, you know,
Like he's just like you were saying, Caitlin, like and
and like you were speaking about your own experience, Wilissa.
It's like this this movie connected for reasons that are
related to writing and for reasons that are related to
lack of options of like in two thousand four. Yeah,

(01:36:29):
like it just know, the only way to make a
widely distributed movie about the story of two Mexican immigrant
women was to have a white guy who knew nothing
of that experience and didn't take many steps to include
or involve. You know, it doesn't even speak Spanish. Like

(01:36:50):
he didn't admit like I don't know what they were saying,
I don't speak Spanish. It's like, why would you make
a movie about that? Then? Right, well he makes it.
He makes a creepy comment about how pass Vega didn't
speak much English, and he didn't speak much Spanish, and
I think he's trying to like draw this parallel that's like, honey, no,
that's not what was going on. He Adam Sandler. I

(01:37:12):
think he's Adam Sandler and she's the character she was
playing well. But but yeah, I mean it's just like
it's so two thousand and four and its flaws, but
I think that there are, like there are strong threads
and relationships that, like you see parts of that seemed
very promising, and that just he just can't follow through on.

(01:37:36):
Like Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy is just not the guy to
make this story. But he did his he did his best,
and it was it was okay for two thousand and four.
So I'll give it to nipples and give one to Christina,
and I will give one to Monica because I wanted

(01:37:57):
her in the movie. More cousin Monica. Maybe it was
funny justice for Monica. She had she like got her
nose broken, she had good side eyes at at Deborah.
I'm gonna give this movie two and a half nipples.
It was going to be three nipples. And then the
James L. Brooks um research that you've told me, about

(01:38:18):
really took half a nipple away, UM so horrible. I
really hate I really hate that. I think I still, yeah,
I'm still still like sentimentally attached to this movie, but
it's just because of like who I am. And yeah,
it's so it's so fun to talk about too, because
there's so much going on there that is a rye

(01:38:42):
and I yeah, I could. I feel like I could
talk about it for like maybe another half hour, but
I know there's like stuff I feel like we missed,
but I'm just like I'm tired. I'm tired. I have
to go to bed. I know I'm gonna give of
one nipple to Klarrences Leachman through the whole movie because

(01:39:05):
she's so funny and weird and I love I just
love a drunk old woman and I love that her
purpose is just like being this like dried out like
jazz singer who is just like drinking by noon and
just like being funny. I love her. And I'll give
another nipple to the Christina translating for her mother scene

(01:39:26):
because it is it's pretty classic. And I like that
he's trying to eat the sandwich the whole time and
he can't and then have a nipple to the final
scene of the movie that just always gets to me,
even I I screencapped it while I was watching it,
where she says, um, the only thing that will define
me is being my mother's daughter. That really got to me.

(01:39:49):
James L. Brooks, I don't know you. I think that
was really formative to me too. I've like, that's like
in my my poetry somewhere probably plagiarized. Um, but I
mean he probably plagiarized it from the women that he
invited over to his house. Dang. Yeah, I wouldn't lose

(01:40:10):
sleep over it. Yeah, but that's just happening. Also. Yeah, well, Melissa,
thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me.
This is so fun. It was fun to hang out.
Thanks for bringing us this movie. Uh, that is such
a I mean truly, it's just like, let people make

(01:40:32):
their own movies, James. Don't let James L. Brooks do it. Look,
what would happen? Tell us more about your book and
where people can buy it and check out your other
stuff and follow you on social media and all that
kind of stuff. Um, you can follow me on social

(01:40:52):
media at e L l oh Melissa, that's my handle
everywhere I'm on the internet way too much. And my book,
like I said, it's a novel in verse about bringing
Sleana back to life through sance, and it's all about
identity and love and loneliness in a way that maybe

(01:41:12):
um was you know a tiny bits of spanglisher in there.
Um identicate a book to Jameson Brooks. Um and anyway, No, no,
he's an icon. I get it right. It's like I
only wrote my everything I do is because of Jimmy Brooks. Um.
So yeah, my book is out. You can get it

(01:41:34):
wherever books are being sold. Um. It would be great
if you didn't get it on Amazon and got it
on bookshop dot org. They support indie bookstores. Um. Or
you could call up your local indie bookstore and buy
it there. I would love if you read my book. Yeah,
that's it. Thank you, Yeah, I love you. Thank you

(01:41:56):
for doing this show again so much. I love Thanks
for having me on. I love it. You can follow
us on social media on Twitter and Instagram at Bechtel Cast.
You can go to patreon dot com slash Bechtel Cast

(01:42:20):
and subscribe to our Matreon, which is five dollars a month.
You get to bonus episodes every month, plus access to
the very large back catalog. You can get our merch
at public dot com slash the Bechtel Cast. If that's
you know what you feel like day, and if you don't,
it's none of our business. Live your life, that's true.

(01:42:44):
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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Spanglish with Melissa Lozada Oliva