Spider-Man 2 with Sina Grace

After much consideration, The Bechdel Cast would like to declare that we are now an Alfred Molina fan podcast first, and a podcast about the portrayal of women in movies second. Our Amazing Spider-guest is Sina Grace, and boy was he patient with how horny our discussion of Spider-Man 2 gets.

(This episode contains spoilers)

Follow @SinaGrace on Twitter! While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @hamburgerphone

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the beck Doll Cast, the questions asked movies have
women in um? Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands?
Or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef and best
start changing it with the beck Del Cast. Hello, and
welcome to the beck Del Cast. This is our this
is our best episode yet. My name is Jamie, my

(00:22):
name is Caitlin, and welcome to the best episode of
the Beckdel Cast. You're ever going to hear in your
goddamn life. This is uh podcast about the role of
women in movies today. What is it about? I guess
we'll just find out wit movie today. It's more like
an Alfred Moina themed fan show kind of I don't know,
like the celebration of him and his career. We should
have warned our guests how much we will probably talk

(00:44):
about Alfred what's his name? Oh my god, Alfred Molina. Sorry,
I had a stroke, but um, Jamie's obsessed with Alfred Molina.
I'm gonna try to steer the conversation away. He rush
had a large poster. We should have sent an email.

(01:04):
I had a large poster of Dot Dock in my room.
My parents thought I like comics. I was just all
horned up for Alfred. Wait, but so he's not exactly
the choose your words poster child of sex icon and
Spiderman too, not at a cake, so it still works
for you. I got into the beefcakes very early. All right,

(01:28):
real quick, So we'll give you a proper introduction. But
first let's just dive right into. So we have a
podcast inspired by the back Doel test, which requires that
the movie, the show, the comic book, whenever story you're consuming.
It requires that there are two female characters who have names,

(01:48):
who talk to each other in the conversation has to
be about something other than a man. We talked about that,
we talked about how women are portrayed just in general
in the movie, and we have a great time. As
you said, best episode yet, Yeah, this is our I
would guess around our thirty fifth episode pretty close, and
I would say we've talked about al from Mollina and
I would say at least seven of those episodes conservatively, Yeah,

(02:15):
maybe thirty four. I don't know if we mentioned him
in like the Heather's episode, but but maybe. But sometimes
he finds a way. Is he's such a character actor
that sometimes you see another character actor, and you're like, well,
I wish I had been out from Mollina, but he did. Fine,
That's how I feel about most beefcake character actors, like
no Alfred Mollina. But yeah, he did the job he

(02:36):
was paid to do. So before we get too carried
away with a from Molina, let's introduce our guest. He
writes in draws graphic novels. He is writing Iceman for
Marvel right now. He also has a graphic novel called
Nothing Last Forever Seen a Grace, which, you know what

(03:00):
fighting words between me two. Alright, I'm not involved. We'll
hash this out over the course of an hour. We'll
figure this out. Let's see how I do the movie.
The movie we're talking about today is Spider Man two Parentheses,
two thousand and four. In case you're like, oh, what
if it's the Andrew Garfield, No, and it's not. It's Toby.
It's it's Toby. Should we say it like Jennifer Connelly

(03:23):
and Labyrinth Toby? Oh my god, I forgot that. That's
how Because Toby is the baby right, oh right, baby
Toby Toby McGuire. We can make the argument of this
maybe perhaps being the peak of Toby McGuire's career so far.
I think he's got another he's got a second wind. Yeah,

(03:43):
I mean this is this, you know, his biggest role. Um,
I do great. I think he's a really fun Spider Man.
I like him. What he's all right? All right, well
what do you think seeing that he looks like Peter Parker,
Like you can't shake that, but he does this. Uh
he just kind of like looks dumb the whole time,
like he's like, oh, I'm sorry, Imlee, And he's laid

(04:08):
a lot in this movie a couple of different plot points.
They really just like because the last time I saw this,
I was in high school and like saying this as
a grown up, I'm like, man, they just really beat
down the themes on the viewer, like they're just like,
all right, our average viewer is seven, so we really
need to just be like Peter Parker is always late

(04:28):
because he's Spider Man and he doesn't know what to do.
There's been a disturbance, that's his line. There were disturbance.
That's why I was late to your play. And it's like,
just tell everyone if I was Spider Man, I tell everybody.
I tweeted every day. Hey everyone, I'm Spiderman. Give me
money crowdfund. Yeah, yeah, Spiderman Patreon the crowd Yeah, that

(04:53):
would work. Probably. Yeah, I will say that. In this
movie tell me reguire. There's so much physical humor. He's
doing straight up slapstick McGuire. There's that scene at the
beginning where there's like the mops in the closet and
he's like, I can't get all these mops in this closet,
and featuring Emily is yeah with a weird she only

(05:19):
has one line back to the backdel cast um and uh,
and she gives off this weird New Yorker acts and
she's like you late yeah, and I'm like, listen bones.
There's so many so I made a list of all
of the bit characters in this movie. There are four

(05:39):
hundred characters in this movie. Male, female, child, which children
could be of all genders. Uh, I'm not doing good
so far. This is supposed to be. I shouldn't let
him know that. Yeah, you're really setting us up failure.
There's so many bit characters it's insane. I made. There's

(06:01):
the guy who runs the pizza place, Emily Decianelle, who
doesn't want to pay for the pizza. There's Elizabeth Banks
in a wig. She comes up a couple of times.
I always have to do a double take to remember
that it's her because it's such a weird I had
totally forgotten. Yes, yeah, yeah, I don't know if that's
her last name. There's the daughter of the landlord. There's

(06:21):
the landlord there, and we'll get to that weird scene
with the cake. There's a bunch of journalists. There's a
million towns people who go like, well, Spider Man Like,
there's the doctor in the tight eyed T shirt. Yep,
that's a weird one. Ussher elevator guy Joel McHale. Uh.
The usher is played by Bruce Campbell. I was like,

(06:43):
is it? And then I was like, all right, Sam
Raimi directed Evil Daddy directed the Spider Man movies. It
makes sense that he gives Bruce a little role this movie.
It makes a lot more sense when I watching it now,
where I'm like, oh, this is a Sam Ramy movie.
Like the very scary, violent scenes out of nowhere, You're like, oh,
this because he's horrible Boy, and I think that was

(07:03):
kind of horrible by Horrible Boy that's what they call him.
And then My favorite bit character was Harry's butler, who
is in exactly one scene and James Franco's you know,
like doing his James Franco thing, and he's like, oh god,
sport like just brooding, and his butler, who's very old,
shouts from across the room, your father only obsessed over

(07:24):
his work. And then James Freaco dismisses him by saying
good night Bernard, and then he turns around it leaves,
never to be seen again. I don't know how many
actors got their sag card off of being on the
side of this movie for like twenty five seconds, but
there's so it's so weird. Also, the name of the

(07:45):
butler's Bernard, not Bernard unless James Franco just funked up
that long entirely, he's a good night Bernard. There's no
ber nerd good night Bernard. And then Bernard turns her
out and leaves, and that's and it's so funny because
if you think about like Batman's butler, sure you know,

(08:07):
the famous one, and then you've got Bernard as one
line and then he's like, well, you're right, I'm gonna
right off, and then he does grand that actor made.
So you know, let's talk about, Um, when did you
first see the movie? And like, what's your history with
because you you right for Marvel, you you're like Universe?

(08:34):
How is about? Because Jamie and I we recently did
an episode about Wonder Woman, and I revealed that I've
never read a comic book in my entire life. Sorry everybody, Yeah,
so um, because I'm not a fucking nerd, just kidding,
I am. I'm a graphic novel gut, but I've never
been a comics gale. Yes. So I saw Spider Man
two in high school with my friend Eric Merrowitz. Actually

(08:59):
he's like, he's a cool guy. I such a big
crush on him, and we would have like sleepovers and
make each other mixes, and I just like, I was
always like, how do I sort this out? Didn't happen
because he's straight. But anyway, back to Spiderman. But hey, Eric,
love the weight loss. Glad you're married. Um, but I
always loved Spider Man as a hero. To to tie

(09:20):
it into work stuff, you know, it's fun to be
writing this book called Ice Man, where it's about this
guy who's trying to give himself a fresh start, but
he's like thirty something or like early thirties, late twenties,
and it's interesting to try and be like, Okay, well,
how do I give him sort of Spiderman adventures where
every challenge basically speaks to his like personal life and

(09:40):
his superhero identity. And then on top of that, you know,
I think the magical thing about Spiderman is like he's
never really good enough to win these fights. And the
thing that sets him apart from everyone else's like spirit
and ingenuity, and that's kind of the beautiful and inspiring
thing about him is this like parting sentence from Uncle
Ben kept him on like a track to be like
the good guy and to do the right thing. And

(10:02):
this movie is really weird about that, by the way,
Like he's like I'm kind of tired and I'm just
over it. Someone would give up for an act and
it's all of like a four minute montage and rain
drops keeping fun montage. I like that he becomes like
Spidy impotent. He's like, my jee doesn't come out of
my roost anymore. Well, I want to talk about that too,
because we have discussed on the podcast before the James

(10:25):
Cameron draft of the two thousand to a movie which
bangs you over the head with the jiz metaphor never
read heard tell of this for the best. But James
Cameron did the first draft of the two Thou script
and it's very like, I mean, we read the scene
where it's like Peter part and it's the webs are Jiz,
very clearly laid out Act one by James Cameron, and

(10:49):
so I was like, I can't I couldn't stop thinking
about that because I was just like, did he run
out of come? Like what he's out of come because
he's afraid? And I guess that makes sense. But in
this world, thankfully the webs are not come. There something
more well, not that come isn't meaningful, but you know what, No,
I mean it's not. It is for a man, right,

(11:12):
I could take it or leave it, but for minutes,
the entire like basis of spirituality is like how big
their loads are? So maybe it is spermatuality everyone that
you're gonna have branded shirts spermature but yeah, anyway, yeah,
So I saw this in high school, and it's funny
because I didn't really much like it in high school,

(11:35):
and then I rewatched it to prepare myself for this
and my relationship with it is a little different now
because I was looking at it in consideration of like
the Bechdel cast, like I really don't like it, but
I also do like some things about it. It ages
interestingly and as a grown up, I love you know
when you were talking about all the sort of big characters, like,
that's such a New York thing that you kind of

(11:57):
even if it's just for like a moment, you just
have this like sense of this person where they are,
with their identity, like just these like micro glimpses of
all these little New Yorkers. That's such a Spider Man
thing and that was done pretty effectively in this movie.
But it was a funny movie. It's a it's a
really funny movie. In consideration of this podcast. Yeah, I
mean it's frustrating how women are portrayed in it, but
it's not. It wasn't like a chore for me to watch.

(12:20):
I wasn't like, oh, I have to watch Spider Man.
It's a fun movie. And yeah, but on Rotten to
make if you can believe, I remember when it came out,
I was really into reading Roger Ebert's reviews, and he
at the time said this may be the best superhero
movie I've ever seen. That. Yeah, I had a boyfriend

(12:40):
who loved Yeahbert, Yeah, I had a boyfriend who loved
What is with that? Oh, Zibert hits it's dude, who
like you want to feel valid about watching movies? Yeah yeah,
but I mean he was like the premier film critic
at the time. Well sure, no, I'm just saying it's
it's funny that so many people have like a fixation
on him in particular, and they're like Maltingale myself, please

(13:03):
have a crush on letter. You really need to have
a separate podcast. Like, I'm just putting that out there, right.
So we chose so exactly. Well, we there's a new
Spider Man movie coming out, and we're like, we got
to do a Spider Man episode, but we've skipped the
first one because we skipping right over that, and we
got to do Spider Man two because of Alfred Molina.

(13:26):
Although there's some interesting things, I do want to point
out some some fun things that happened in the first
Spiderman because I also rewatched it. I was just like
I gotta get you know, I gotta get my bearings. Well,
it's fun. I think I might even like it better
than Spiderman two critics wise two wins out. I think,
I think so, I'm pretty sure I do. I love
an origin story, right, so I enjoyed that about the

(13:49):
first Spider Man unique I'm sick of origin stories. Well
maybe now, maybe because they've done a lot, but they're
not are not fun to watch now or that's my
problem with origin stories is now, I don't know, the
tone of most comic book movies is so serious and
it's just like That's why it was fun to go

(14:10):
back to this movie because I was like, oh, this
is like really goofy and kind of dumb. But I
was like, oh, this is like I don't feel heavy
after watching this movie. It's like very very there's so
much levity to it. Anytime he's at the planet. Now
now I'm about to get like destroyed by people listening.
Hasn't the Planet Daily Planet? But like yeah, any scene

(14:34):
with like j Jonah Jamison's always like even though it's
so arch, it's just kind of like you just like
want to believe in a world where like the photographer
talks to the editor in chief like like one on
one and like asks for advances for like, you know,
to photos like it's so and and I feel like
if just for the sake of argument, feel free to

(14:55):
disagree if they, you know, in the newer Spider Man,
and it does seemed like this New Spider Man sort
of going for a more lighthearted I think, where with
the Andrew Garfield they're like, oh, this is like Captain
America Civil War, which is where we first see this
rendition of Spider Man. He was fun, he's a kid,
he's like I kid, he's the leading Billy Elliott, he's

(15:19):
a dancer, he's living his life. But I feel like
the tendency with most movies now would be like you
see Jajoe and Jamison and yeah, he's got a couple
of funny lines, but we also learned that there's more
to him than and I'm just like, I'm so happy
with j jon and Jamison just being like, Nope, I'm selfish,
I suck, I'm weird, I'm yelling. I love j K.

(15:40):
Simmons is portrayal of that character though. It's so fun.
It's great. Wait, so I'm going to talk about the
things that happened in Spider Man one, just to transition
us into Spiderman too. There's a scene and this is
relevant to the podcast because there's a scene early on
in the First Spider Man where Peter Parker he lives
next door to Mary Jane, and he's like, I'm gonna

(16:03):
look into her window and he just spies on her
when she's in her bedroom. It's creepy, Yeah, with that
Toby Maguire, like those glassy eyes, Like, hey, he does
kind of have like a dumb face. Yeah. And then
m J needs to be saved in this movie once
at the parade, once when there's like four rape dudes

(16:25):
trying to like mug and attack her. And then she
needs to be saved again at the end when it's
a Spider Man having to choose between her or a
bust full of children. Oh yeah, I want to fun.
Basically in that movie and in this movie, MJ's pretty
much only role is to be like, I'm a person

(16:49):
that just needs to be saved over and over. This
is the most frustrating part of the movie in context
of the theme of our podcast. The two characters. Obviously,
m J is just I feel like she's just like
this recycled inciting incident for Peter Parker to learn another
lesson and make a choice. He makes a choice to
not be Spider Man because he loves them day and

(17:09):
then he becomes Spider Man because and then he can't
be with m J. But then he can, and it's
blah blah blah blah, and it's like, what does she do?
She's somehow a famous actress. Was she even in the
drama club in high school? How did this happen? We
don't know, we don't care. And then the other character
that really bothered me, and I didn't even register for
me the first time I saw this because I was

(17:30):
just like, you know, so wet for Alfred Molina and
this child in the theater, just soaking wet for this
grown man. But Doc Ox wife Rosie Octavius, perfect name,
a great name, Rosie oc. She's in a couple of scenes,
but she only really speaks in one scene where Peter

(17:53):
Parker's over and Doc Doc is, you know, Alfred Mollena.
He's holding court. He's like, I love science, I love
my wife. You know, she heske me. How are we compatible?
But I don't understand ts Eliott. That's the only the
only things that Rosie says, like her opening is like, hey, Peter,

(18:15):
do you have a girlfriend. It's like okay, So she
she's a plot device right off the bat, and then
they start to talk about like, oh now Rosie exists
to prove that Dr Octavius is a is a good guy,
and he's talking about how he loves her, and of
course she's an English major. Of course she can't be
a fellow fucking scientists. They're like, no, she's sensitive, she's

(18:35):
she reads TS S. Eliot and then she's like I do,
and she doesn't bring any new information. She exists to
validate Doc Doc as a character who is not a
bad guy, so it will will feel it more when
he goes bad. And then basically the next time we
see her, she's very proud of him. And then she
has killed by a shard of glass presumably to her juggular, well,

(18:59):
by a lot a shard to blast. There's like a hole.
But then she dies, right, and she dies for to
serve another plot point, which is this is the inciting incident.
For a while, Doc has nothing to lose. He lost
his wife, he loved her and now he has no
one and you know who cares, But we never find
out She's like I think referenced vaguely one other time.

(19:23):
We never find out if she has a funeral service,
if Doc is allowed to attend this funeral service, and
we never ever ever hear of her again. She just
like serves two very specific points to flesh out this
I mean statuesque amazing, gorgeous man, and then she's killed

(19:44):
and then we never hear about her again. So my
real question is, like, how hard was it for you
to like not just stare at out for Molina in
her scenes? Like how much work did it take for
you to do this work? Like I mean this time,
I mean, I've had to build up the stamina to
not just stare at Some days are easier than others.

(20:05):
Every day is there's other people in this scene, there's yeah,
And just like I keep forgetting that there's two other
actors in this scene, are I mean Alfa Bilina truly
steals every scene he's in. Sometimes he steals every scene
he's in to the point where they're like, let's put
no one else in this scene. Let's just let Alfred
Mellina do a three minute Shakespearean monologue talking to his

(20:26):
own claws, and it's still amazing. Heh wait, I want
to make two one. He could not attend Rosie's funeral
service because he was too busy stealing money from a bank.
You know how banks just have bags of coins. The
cartoony bank. I love the cartoony bank that Joel McHale
works at that gives away toasters, that gives away toasters,

(20:47):
and that only has no paper cash, no like stacks
of just bags of gold coins. Alfa Millina also for
that scene, goes into the bank you know, clause blazing,
and has somehow acquired a villainous fedora. Just for that scene.
He's wearing a fedora to rob the cartoony Joel McHale bank.

(21:09):
And I mean, that's like another fun part of this
movie for me, is I feel like there's so many
scenes that are just interrupted by very cartoonish acts of
violence and it's so fun. Like it's you know, there's
the whole scene where it's like, Aunt may I can't
get a bank loan and Joel McHale's there and they're
not gonna get toaster and pure feels bad, and then
all of a sudden, cut to Alfred Molina bags of

(21:32):
gold fedora and it's just suddenly a completely different scene,
or the the other one where Kirsten Dunce is leaning
in and you get that weird shot of her like
about to kiss you. That was a weird shot, and
then cut to car burst through the window. End of serious.
I really like this movie. I think it's so fun.

(21:54):
Oh god. Well, the other point I wanted to make
about doc Cock is that here's some hot speculation from
Kate and I would argue that Peter Parker, he's like,
I want to meet my idol Auto Octavius, and he
was like, I don't really have time for students right now.
And here he goes. He's like, okay, fine, you pay

(22:14):
the bills. Saw me with your dumb friend, and he
spends all this time with him, Like Peter Parker goes
over to his house and like they have tea with it,
like his wife. I think it's like there's spending a
lot of time together. Here's the thing that took away
time that Octavius needed to do his calculations because he
fucked up and the demonstration goes all wrong and that's
what turns him into doc Ock. So really, man, isn't

(22:37):
another Parker ends up creating the monster he would later
need to destroy spider shaming. Yeah, he sucked up the
lives of his two plusest loved ones also, But let's
let's just to Molina shame a little bit, like okay,
if you're like, well, now, all right, I liked you
up until the second. But what scientists would like if

(22:59):
he was leaving those details down to the last minute.
I mean that is his fault. So yes, let's say
in a shaming, let's everyone gets shamed. Everyone gets shamed,
Alfred Molina. Let's just And I'm this is a strictly
Alfred Molina comment because I was texting Caitlin when I
was watching the movie and I was like, oh, Alfred
Molina has got the gum fifty percent teeth ratio. I

(23:21):
thought he would have been a big Hollywood teeth actor.
He's not. He's got regular teeth bordering on small teeth.
He's humble. Respect him. He doesn't need Hollywood teeth. He's
got talent. Bedroom he's got a crooked too. He's a director.
Small eyes, big nose, beautiful or not. Small eyes, swell teeth,

(23:46):
big no eyes, big old broken nose. I do wish
that they gave like Doctor Octopus, like a little bit
more of a soul, you know, like because in the
books that happened. Like every once in a while he'll
get like moved, Like there's a minute where he aristotle
like nod or don't not or whatever. But like there's

(24:08):
a minute where like he's dating a may right like
in the book Whoa or he has a crush on
her look it up. And that's and it was rewatching
the movie and I was like, oh, right, is that
what's going to happen with this like Aunt Macine and
the you know on on the side of the building.
And it's like, no, what she does the thing that
like every superhero writer does, And it's like and then

(24:28):
the woman does her part by like daintily smacking him
in the head at the right moment. So that was
the extent of their four play. Yeah, she did do
good though. That was a well timed I'm gonna hit
you on the head. That was a good goof. It
ends up she saves Spider Man because otherwise he was

(24:48):
gonna impale him with you know, his his sharp claw bit.
Also his four fallust is just floiling around in the books.
Is there a better explanation for why the clause exist?
Because in the presentation it's weird. He's like, I made
these clause I control my brain. Also made as to

(25:10):
magnetism and like radiation or something like that. Okay, I
couldn't heat. It's it's like almost a throwaway line, but okay,
but they do offer something because I was just like, oh,
that's why he needs to to me at least why
he needs to fuse them into his spinal column, Like
why can't you just build a robot that he can
control from afar? Does anyone get to wear that? Because

(25:31):
then he wouldn't be able to be The broad strokes
are kind of the same, like he was a scientist
and did this thing. I don't think and I can't remember,
so please Internet, don't get mad at me or judge me.
But like, I don't remember if there was that. Like
also like and then there's this weird explosion thing that
like explains why he's a crazy person. Yeah, well his

(25:53):
inhibitor chip. Yeah, because that was the whole thing that's
at the chip that's in one of his monologue scenes
in the book. I don't think the tentacles is what
they like to call them. I don't have agency. I
think he's just a guy who's gone corrupt with power,
and you know, I don't know, I might need to.

(26:14):
I got to look into this because I don't I know,
I think Rosie's in the books too, but I don't
think it's all as like neatly packaged, as like here
are these causes and effects like and that is why
like he hates Spiderman and this, that and the other.
But yeah, it's it's a similar thing where like he's
like controlling these things and they just kind of make
him a little too invincible for his own good Haristotle,

(26:34):
what about the doc dock and not many thing it
happened almost almost marry marring him. Also fun fact for
you too, because you don't read the comics. There was
a minute where Dr Octopus his brain was in Spider
Man's body for a while Peter Parker's body. Toby McGuire
exuding Alfred Molina vibes, can't imagine interesting twist. Yes, we'll

(26:57):
write this fan fix. I hope that they just also
just rubbed her screen, because there's a picture of it.
I didn't just touch it. That was involuntary. I'm sorry
I called you out being shamed. Uh. I hope that
they gave Alfred Billina those I want to say three
full monologue scenes. One is especially long where he goes

(27:17):
the chip that that one's very long. But as we
all know, Alfred Bolena joined the Royal Shakespeare Company in
ninety seven. He is no stranger to monologues. He's a
serious stage actor. So I hope they were like, well,
we've got to have Billina as octopus, which I doubt
that they ever said. But he's a character actor, he seasoned.
He blew them away, and they're like, we've got to

(27:38):
write some we gotta let him talk to these claws.
Seems like it seems like he could really hear me out.
If you can make some sweet screen chemistry with claws,
maybe you're the greatest actor to ever live. Maybe. Well,
he and he is really convincing and like that. He's great. Hey,

(27:59):
let's talk about something other than a man in this episode.
It's gonna be hard in this one. Okay, well let
me start. So we already kind of touched on this before,
but not really surprised that m j main female character
doesn't really have much of a personality. She's not a
super developed or fleshed out character. She really exists only

(28:19):
as the love interest. Her role is to be captured
and then to be saved. She's ali and over again.
Well let me crush some lit one on one on YouTube.
I was just realizing this on the drive over. Everything
about her is static, Like when Peter walks by all
the same image of her, you know what I mean,
Like the whole movie, it's the same billboard, the same image.

(28:41):
She's just there in place, essentially waiting for him. And
then even the play, like she's just in one place
performing the same lines over and over again. That's really
interesting that she does, like, for all intents and purposes,
just exists to kind of stand around as an example
of something, you know, Like she's just static. Yeah, and
it makes her very passive. I mean she pretty much

(29:03):
does nothing actively to push the story forward or to
really do anything that she prompts whatever the next thing
Peter is going to do. So who would But that's boring? Okay,
this is I'm probably not phrasing this right, but like,
why would you still have like a boner for someone
who's like, hey, and in a few months we haven't talked,

(29:25):
I got engaged. This is would be mad all the
scenes Mary Jane is so confusing in in this because
she's not a flashed out character, but all the scenes
she's in with Peter are so weird. Like there's that
scene where Peter's leaving his own birthday party and Mary
Jane's outside of her parents house, and there's that weird

(29:46):
conversation where he's you know, like not wanting to say
I love you because he's still Spider Man. And then
she gets very like close to him and it's basically
like say you love me, and say you love me,
and then he doesn't, and then she's like, Okay, well
I have a boyfriend. And I was just like, why
would you act that way? That's so bizarre. And then

(30:06):
and then at the end, when did I cry? When
Peter was like we can't be together? Sure in the
big web that talk, I'm easily manipulated. To be fair,
I don't think that I should have cried, but I did.
But then you know, she's lowered from the big old
com web that her he blows a load, they lounge,

(30:31):
inet hearts are broken, and then she's lowered from the
load down to her long suffering. It reminds me of
Liz Lemon's fake boyfriend. That's who MJ's marrying, like astronaut,
famous astronaut, that's basically who MJ is engaged to. He's perfect.

(30:51):
There's that great line where she like was like, no,
let's do the Spider Man kiss. She does a Spiderman
kiss with the astronaut, and because he's not a character either,
he's like, I feel like I'm on the moon. That
was so weird. Was not such a weird life. I
was like, we get it. He's a spaceman. That was
confusing because he was like, do you want to invite
your friend Peter Parker to the wedding. She's like Peter Parker, No,

(31:14):
I hate him, He's a jerk. You're like Spider Man.
She's weird. She's like, my back, so I can do
that Spider Man kiss to see maybe you're Spider Man.
I don't know, are either with me? And she's just
like shrug. And then in the next scene she's meeting
Peter for coffee and she's like, I changed my mind. Well, okay,
you could argue that her kiss, her Spider Man kiss

(31:37):
with astronaut Mike Dexter, wasn't as invigorating as she was hoping,
and then, but then why does she go and seek
out Spider Man unless she and just intuitively knows that
Peter Parker is Spider Man. It was confusing why she's like, well,
I just spent the earlier scene telling my fiance how
much I hated you. But let's get coffee and maybe

(31:59):
we're and you say, like, maybe I'll break up with
my astronaut boyfriend for you, a freelance photographer and who
is emotionally withholding and a college student grow up? Also,
did you notice that every woman in this movie, like
under the age of sixty, was like who is that guy?
Like every girl in the movie was like, Elizabeth, thanks

(32:22):
the neighbor Peter. Yeah, she's like you got this? Who
would say that to a twenty year old freelance photographer,
No one. Yeah, she was into him. The neighbors into him.
M J. Obviously we just said is into him? There
were a few others here and there that we're just
like always like, oh, who's that? And I was just like,
are you like what he's like walking on his campus

(32:43):
and after in his like this like rain drops keep
falling on my head montage and he's like girls walk
past him and they're like tink you're cute. I do
like that. He does a bit of a reverse Princess
Diaries for that montage where he's like, I'm putting the
glasses on and now my life is great interesting. Um.
That sequence ends in the most confusing freeze frame of

(33:06):
all time. It's the best. It's I mean, I feel
like that montage is and this is a very silly movie.
That's almost as silly as the movie gets. But in
Spider Man three, Spider Man three is that montage spread
out for like forty hours because it's so like I mean,
if you take the raindrops are falling on my head

(33:27):
montage and then hold it up next to the weird
dance scene, I forget. But that's another one where that's
another one where women are turned on by Toby McGuire
and it's like, no, they're not. He looks like he's
about to snap someone's bones. He is a scary guy.

(33:49):
Do we know the song, oh, speaking of songs, vindicated
by Dashboard Confessional was written for this movie. There's references
in the because I remember this is it's the perfect
hot topics on the um. But there there's like a
whole verse about Mary Jane's wedding ring and how it's
like oversized and overwhelmed, like it's there's a whole it's

(34:12):
all about Spider Man, dashboard confessional man, cool, cool story
yourself at okay, let's talk about it from Willie a
little um. It's just really it's frustrating that she's basically
reduced to effectively an object. That's like now you're captured,
now you're saved, now you're captured again, and now you're
saying like it just happens over and over. She's doesn't

(34:36):
do anything to ever try to save herself or to
like when she's in the end of the movie, she's
in like chains, she's like, all right, I'll just I'm
just gonna stay here. I'm try to she does the
thing that that the captured woman does where she's like, hey,
let me go and he's like no. And then but
she does try to defend herself once and it's so
weird the way it's dealt with where there's that moment

(34:59):
in the last scene where Mary Jane she takes a
crowbar or something and she tries to hit Doc and
he just picks her up and throws her. And that
is the one time she tries to do something and
it it blows up in her face. Immediately, she's like
his mechanical arms look at her. Yeah, he doesn't like
back turned. Damn. I was almost excited. I was like, Oh,

(35:19):
she does do something. But then he's like and she
doesn't give him the chance. And then a wall is
about to follow her, and then Spider Man is like,
we'll prop this up for you. This is really heavy,
and then she's like, I'll just stay here, and yeah,
she doesn't get her away. I think she's trapped under something.
But I also think that the in the other direction
is the big ball of energy, so maybe she was

(35:40):
going to get I'll give her the benefit of the the doubt.
They didn't need to have a conversation at that point
where she was like, you said you do love me.
He's like like that that said it's I've tried to
remember the exact wording of it, because it was also
very silly, where it was like, okay, she's kind of
over explaining rehab sin something that's already happened. Where she

(36:01):
was like, you said you didn't love me, but you
do even though you said you didn't, and I was like, okay,
you could just say you do love me, but she
like like double negatives it just to even everything out.
She's dumb, he's dumb. It's well, it's so funny. Like
I'm just watching it and I'm like, oh, like this
was written by men, Like it's just so funny. There's

(36:22):
so much bullshit, you know, we can talk about in
the sense of like yeah, they're all wallpaper and they're
all serving this guy's story. And I just in my head,
I'm like these what like what morons? And it's like, well,
they were probably just they just had the best of
intentions in their heads. Like guys are so dumb that
they think like the best way to honor a woman
is to say, look, how much you inspired me. That's

(36:43):
kind of all this movie is, is like meals well,
but I'm not and I'm not forgiving it or excusing it.
I'm just like I'm watching it and I'm like trying
to be like, why would you just do it like
with like so few dimensions? And it's like I think
that's why. It's like they're just so busy. These writers
are so busy crafting like this one character, and all

(37:03):
they can think about is how like everyone else fits
in their lives and it's like, yeah, the woman are
just always love interests and like damsels and they inspire
them or move them or die in order to get
them to do the thing. And like, right, if they
just try it a little harder, they could write developed
female characters. Like it's not writing is hard, It's not
that much harder to just do a better job portraying women. Like,

(37:29):
you know, if you're going to go so far as
to write a feature length script, like maybe spend a
little time on these female characters. Well, Alfred gets all
these monologues, I mean, and I would not take a
word away from him. However, I will flip this table.
We haven't talked about Aunt May in this movie very much.

(37:51):
I was surprised she had more moments than I thought
she would. She I feel like she is the closest
to having a female character with some depth because she
does exist. Like Uncle Ben did too say a line
in the trailer, I believe there's a hero in all

(38:12):
of us. I remember that from the trailer, right, you know,
both the aunt dan the uncle exists for the trailer.
But we do see like we see her grieving a
little bit, and so there's a little depth there. We
see that she's having money problems. There's a little depth there.
And then you also sort of get a bit of
an arc which is amazing that it's like a female
character head a one point arc um. But she does

(38:35):
where she sort of starts to move on, and it's like,
I'm getting evicted from my house. I found an apartment.
Little neighbor boys, help me out. I don't need your help, Peter.
If you want to hang out, feel free. She's wearing
a flannel. I'm like, good for you. Like she's she's
starting to like, you have to take matters into my
own hands. I can't afford this house anymore. And then

(38:57):
there's the moment where Peter comes forward like I might
be responsible for Uncle Ben's death and she's just like mother.
And then and then in the next scene when they're
together again, he's like, hey, about my last visit, and
she's like, we need to talk about it. I'm over it.
Let's move on. I want to say I thought that

(39:20):
that was a believable. Yeah, especially for like, I don't
know she was like that. She has like some level
of complexity. If she was never mad about it, that
would have been weird. She was upset about it at first. Sure,
so yeah, she's like she has to mention, she has
a story. It's just unfortunate that like everything about her
is like built around like the actions of men, you

(39:40):
know what I mean, Like her husband his death, her
nephews being responsible for his death at the hand of
another man, like all this, you know, even the neighbor boy,
even the neighbor what couldn't there be a little man? Yeah,
Joel mccale, the scientists, all the scientists and doctors who
get to talk or men. Yeah, like yeah, no women
in STEM with lines as would say, there were women.

(40:03):
We were talking about this the scene that's that's a
great Sam Raimy scene where Doc Cock murders ten surgeons that, yeah,
And I think I had almost like kind of blocked
it out because I remember being afraid of it, but
I'd just forgotten until I saw it this watch. And
there's a lot of women in that scene, a lot

(40:24):
of women in STEM. But I think that they're just
there because Sam Raimy is like, we need screamers. Yeah,
they shrieked like so much, And there's all these intense
close ups of women going well, yeah, and then one
woman who like digs her fingernails into the floor scrape. Yeah,
it was scary. Um. I want to do a super
cut of all the just women screaming in this movie,
because I think it would be about twenty minutes long. Yeah.

(40:45):
I think they did a decently good job with Aunt May,
giving her a little bit of depth, and it's nice
to see like a woman over fifty in a movie
oftentime doesn't happen. I think the only thing that kind
of like, oh, man, come on was when do captures her.
It is tossing her around and all that stuff. How
did she not going to cardiac arrestling? Although the best

(41:09):
that's that in that fight scene. It's not the best
fight scene in the movie. That's obviously the train scene.
But there's the best Alpha Molina line read in that
scene where a Spider Man is like, give me my
aunt or whatever, and he's like, but love that love
my brother, And I like, I texted my brother when

(41:30):
I saw that, because we used to say that line
back and forth through each other and then we would
just drop stuff anyways. And then she, like you mentioned,
she does get her moment where she gets to hit
him with her umbrella over the head. In it, Um
saves Spider Man from getting dead. But UM stopped throwing

(41:51):
women around. Yeah, throw throw James Franco around a little bit, right.
He does get a little bit thrown around, and then
his glass of whiskey, like all most hits him in
the face and then catches it at the last minute.
We haven't talked that much about James Breako. Let's not.
I read his book of one of his books of poetry.
I'm good. I have a signed copy. I was to say.

(42:12):
He did a reading at book Soup where I used
to work, and I managed that day and was one
of the most traumatic days in my life. Was a
diva or was it? He was fine. It was just
the five hundred thousand teenagers and he was so I
was like, stopped touching them. He was touching their hands.
That's what they wanted to Speaking of books of poetry, though,
did you know that if you read a woman poetry

(42:33):
fa with you forever? They're according to But but to
be fair, his personalityless wife corroborated it. She's like, it's true,
it worked. I have three days to live, you know.
The other thing I wanted to mention was that while

(42:53):
m J does get tossed around, captured, saved, blah blah blah,
that's really her only role in this movie. She does
kind of redeem herself in the end, although I don't
think it's very earned, because she is so flat of
a character that I think they're like, well, we need
to write this line for her to say, and then
it will make everything better. But it's when at the

(43:15):
very end, it's after she's discovered that Peter Parker and
Spider Man are the same person, and she's like, oh,
and we do we love each other and we right
you were and I love you and he's like, we
can't be together. I have enemies. I'm crying, which like
doesn't matter. She still gets captured. Even though that she

(43:36):
didn't like might as well be fucking might as well,
which is kind of what she says, because um, sorry,
where is it I have it? Can't you respect me
enough to make my own decision? Yes, is the line,
but that line comes right after she says I can't
survive without you, so it's like sandwiched in between. That's

(43:57):
like one good line sandwiched in between bad lines. But
that that was that stood out to me too. I
wrote that down, and then she's like, but like, could
MJ just when she's lowered into the web, into the
arms of astronaut mic Nexter, could she just say, well,
you know, obviously Peter is following his path right now, whatever,

(44:21):
but that doesn't mean she has to marry a man
she doesn't love like and she just lands and there's
that shot where he's holding her and she's looking back
at Peter. I'm like, you could just be single. You're twenty.
We gotta get that runaway bride moment in there, though
he's got to run through New York in a wedding drest.
That was I was feeling more for astronaut Mike Dexter
in that scene because he seemed ready. He seemed ready.

(44:44):
He's probably thirty, you know, he had he would have
had to have gone through all kinds of training to
be an astronaut and to go in the moon. He
had already played football in the moon. That was the
first man to throw a football on the moon. Let's
talk about really quick the age of women, and specifically
because I was just trying to look up as Banks
in regards to this movie, because I had forgotten she

(45:06):
was in it. Apparently she was like almost MJ in
the first movie, which is why they end Sam Ramy
ended up kind of throwing her into this movie because
he felt bad, but she was told at the time
because I guess she's like a year older than Tobey
Maguire and they're like, no, you're too old, I can't
do it. Too old to play m j J. She was. Yeah.

(45:27):
This is also I tolby why are shouldn't have been
cast and why we are all excited about Tom Holland,
But like he's too old to play Spider Man, you
know what I mean? Like he was like twenty six
when they started this thing, and I don't know how
old Kirsten Done was. I forget that she's Kirston Done,
so she was like thirty inexperience at that point because

(45:48):
of that was like posticides. Yeah, yeah, yeah, she had
already done something I cannot wait to do with episode.
I'm jazzed that would mean. But yeah, that's a that's interesting.
Maybe Aristotle remembers this, but because neither of you read
comic books, therefore you never read Wizard and Ashamed. No no, no,

(46:08):
no no no, I'm more like I'm what I'm trying
to say, is I don't. I'm I'm setting it up
so I don't sound like a man splaining that's good
for you. So I'm trying to more be like hey,
like because you know, you didn't read this shitty comic
book magazine in the nineties. You don't remember when the
James Cameron name was floating around. They were like, let's
dreamcast Spider Man the movie, and they wanted they said,

(46:31):
Leonardo DiCaprio should be Peter Parker. And then they wanted
Nicky Cox. Remember her, look her up. She was on
that sitcom in the nineties, and that's what they wanted
to play. Like that's like, oh interesting, that's what like
fanboys thought, Like Mary Jane was so like, well, she's
got yeah, she's got the classic built like the boobs

(46:53):
and no waste. She's got that, yeah, no waste cup,
little old us behind the eyes. Yeah she would have.
She would have fit the bill. But then they're like,
let's go a little unconventional. Let's let's get Kiki in
her gap. Let's get the gap in there, let's see
what happens. So she yeah, it's so just to let
you know, like that character is like screwed no matter

(47:16):
how you look at it. And in the comic book,
Like again, I'm not defending any of this. This is
just all like, oh, it's really funny, like what men think,
like is the coolest version of a girl. It's like, oh,
she's a model in an actress, but she likes the
nerd and that's kind of her like the whole series.
Like in the comic books, she's yeah, she becomes a supermodel. Well,
I guess that sort of like doubles down on the

(47:37):
problem of like this is a comic book written by
men being adapted by other men. Yeah, and like and
and also they touch on this in the first movie,
but not as much in the book. She's also a
victim of domestic abuse like her father that's in the
first movie totally forgot about it, gets like dramatically screamed
at in his crying and like Peter's like, hey, I'll

(48:00):
fix you when like you know, you know it can
fix the problem a man perpetuated man. Yeah, if at
first you don't succeed, m J. And also we have
to call you m J because your name is weed. Um.
That was my big beef with the movie, was I

(48:20):
was like whatever, just lean in, like just just throwing
a joke in the first ten minutes, being like yeah, yeah, yeah,
I know they're goofy enough. They could have done it,
could have gotten away with it. You could have done
something tongue in cheek. Kids wouldn't even know anyway, Like right,
but how many pounds of hair joll do you think
James Franco used in this? They just got him a vet.
I don't know. While you were having a crush on

(48:42):
Alfred Molina during this time, I was having a crush
on James Franco. It has since to Dave Franco, but
oh well, I mean that seems like a smart move.
James Franco is unhinged, but in this movie he's not.
He's got so much gel. He's wearing plastic sunglasses for

(49:02):
of the movie. He keeps putting them on, taking them up.
James Franco is such a drama queen. He's almost crying
in every scene. There's that what was the line that
I texted you where they're at astronaut Mike Dexter's party,
and then Peter comes up, and then every time Harry
is just like, who is Spider Man? Tell you right now,
and then Peter's like, now is not the time, and

(49:23):
Harry's like every time is the time, and he yells
and he's like drunk, and it's like he's a mess.
After Octavia's the whole experiment goes wrong and he turns
into Doc Dock and several people get murdered in that scene. Um,
Harry comes out and he's like, I'm ruined. The only
thing I have left now is Spider Man. Like, you're

(49:46):
still a billion hare, you still live in a penthouse
apartment in New York City. That's what Bernard is trying,
he says, obsessed over good night Bernard. Um, this is
dedicated to Bernard. Shut up? Can I just say, oh

(50:09):
my god, I didn't even do the recap. Whoops, I
don't need it. This one recapped it pretty well. Yeah,
I feel like it was a slow. Part of the
movie is MJ being very mad at Peter for never
coming to see her play. And I just wanted to say,
if I got as mad at my friends for not
coming to my shows as she gets at Peter for

(50:30):
not coming to her show, I would have no friends.
But as for not my Dexter has been five times
to be fair if it's someone that you see as
a love interest. I don't know. Again, I got into
this fight with my boyfriend a lot, like when it
comes to reading books of mine, and I'm like, books
is different, though it's still like you know, well you
have you have the book on the table. It's a pretty,
it's a it's hefty, so it's still like a two

(50:51):
hour commitment, but even more to the point he didn't
have to leave his apartment to read it, and he
hasn't read you know, And it's like I don't but
I don't get. But it's it's a place where like
when romance is involved, and this is kind of the
part where I'm like, I guess I kind of respect that,
Like that's where she's drawing the line, like you're not
meeting me on my terms, which is my career, which
is cool, that's yeah. But again it goes back to

(51:13):
like she's static and she's just always staying there waiting
for him, and like and he's just not show All
he has to do is show up and he's not
so and this was her first big thing. I think.
I guess I wasn't a really bad job. By the way,
every scene so bad messes upper lines all the time, froze. Yes,
I mean like Lindsay Lohan did that. Like, oh, Daily

(51:33):
Mail would get so mad. Sorry, yeah, the Daily Planet
the one um really quick. I feel like we've name
dropped so many character actors. One person we didn't name drop,
but he's in the very beginning assume monv Y the
pizza guy, Peter Yeah, Mr is the like. Oh and

(51:56):
and also again this has nothing to do with but
there's so many people with four lines in this movie,
and I just want to make sure we acknowledge every
single one of them. Willem Dafoe, avenge me. He's in
it for forty five seconds, screams avenge me two times.
End of seeing a hundred thousand dollars for a new
car for willing to foe? Uh can I I'm gonna

(52:18):
bring it back to what's relevant about this podcast, not
that I wasn't having a great time talking about they
stop yelling at me. Another frustrating thing about it is
that the reason that one Peter Parker won't reveal to
MJ that he is Spider Man, and the reason that
he won't be with her is that he's like, I

(52:40):
have to protect you from my enemies. I'm always going
to have enemies, and I couldn't put you in danger,
which is really just like a symptom of this like
patriarchal bullshit where he's like, I have to always protect you,
and it's like no, funk Off, like, no, she can't
fend for herself because you've written her such a helpless
piece of ship care. But if you didn't, if you,

(53:01):
like these writers, tried a little harder, it wouldn't have
to be god a protect her enemy. They he'd even
let her land that one blow on Dot. I'm like,
why did he have to just swatter away? They went
through the trouble of writing, well, she's going to try
to do something, but we're going to make her would
have broken all of her ribs and killed her, punctured

(53:22):
all of her would have died. And Togar is thrown
against a brick wall. He's got a spider exo skeleton.
That's spider. He has spider strength. That's what they do.
You think toky Bar has any body hair? Probably not right.
I don't think he has a hair. He's a shaver.
I think you know who doesn't have any chest hair
is Alfred Molina. And we know this because there's a

(53:44):
scene where his bare chest is exposed. If he's a shaver,
I think he's got yes, Yeah, like I tried them.
I like hair free kind of smooth boy chilling. I
like them smooth. Do you like at least like I
like a little tiny Yeah, like I don't want like
a hairless person. Although not to shame people with like alopecia,

(54:07):
you're great. Stop alopecia shaming. Sorry, Um, yeah, I don't
like I like just like a little, like a little
bit maybe like a little hair around the nips. Free
to hair Alfred, if you're listening, if you shaved, fine,
but no you didn't have to. Yeah, he could have
been a pretty brutish, really quick. One's weird scene a woman,

(54:28):
isn't it? And it's not about al fro Billina. The
cake scene? Yeah, what's going on? Why even have that character?
First of all, it's like we get everyone has a
crush and tell people guer. For some reason, I have
the character? Why have that scene? Yeah, it's the neighbor,
the landlord's daughter. She's like, would you like some chocolate cake?
He's like, with with milk, a glass of milk. Yeah,

(54:52):
that sounds nice. It's like, why why is it cut
that scene? And then she watched she does not have cake?
She watched she has a plate. She has a plate,
she's presumably eating her cake. Why is she staring at him?
She's just like she wants to she wants some of
that to what end? Like where does that? I thought

(55:12):
that that scene might have because when I was watching it, like,
is this scene implying that, Like Peter's trying to move
on and maybe they hook up, but we see her leave,
we know it doesn't happen, so it's like with him.
And then she's like, oh, by the way, you got
a note from your aunt? Why not just cut to
Peter at his mailbox and not not That's like, we
don't need more women in this movie, but what a

(55:32):
fucking weird I watched it twice to make sure. I'm like,
am I missing anything encoded in this scene? Like? No? Never.
The first time I saw this movie when it came out,
I was like, why is this scene in here? So
I remember seeing this movie in the theater and everyone
burst out laughing during the line that MJ gives Peter's like,

(55:52):
let's pick up where we left off, and she's like,
you never got on. How can we get off when
you never got on? And it's like, sexy, I'm going
to use that his four play. I'll just be like, look,
you can't get off if you don't get on, So
get on, buddy, and get off my play butterfingers. I'm
like to buy Alpha Bolina School of four play my Professor.

(56:18):
My other one is my inhibitor chip. I'm on inhibited.
There's such a good where he's like the chip there
and he does, he turns around and he goes, it's
so good. Wait, can we talk about some had a
rush of blood his mother? Remember when he tries to

(56:40):
make a joke and he's like, did anyone lose a
roll of twenty dollar bills in a rubber band? Yeah?
Well we found the rubber band. And it's like, I'm
going to get rid of all my stand up material,
tell only that joke and extras, sensations, the Hollywood extras.
Wait a minute, I forgot to talk about my favorite
moment in an entire movie. So I made a list

(57:03):
of all the times that Spider Man has to save
a character. He first saves Harry whenever octavious experiment goes
all wild. So hey, a man saving another man, Okay,
Then he has to save Aunt May after dot Got
captures her at the bank. And then he saves a
small child in a burning building, but the floor collapses

(57:26):
beneath him and he kind of falls down. He's like
hanging from this ledge, and he hurls the baby back
up onto that like just flings violently because this is
like a toddler who's like two or three years old.
And then somehow this baby helps pull him up. That
gone to the floor. This you know, hundred and sixty

(57:47):
or seventy pound man and a two and a half
year old baby, she pulls him up. That's a good
point to cite that this is a very white movie. Yeah,
is not what we tackle specifically, but worth mentioning, worth
mentioning very few people of color in the movie. Well

(58:08):
for something about New York is like okay, like throw
a few Dominicans and please you know, there's also Robbie
Robertson at the newspaper. But again, if you can't immediately
think of him, that says everything. Oh right, Oh yeah,
I didn't know his character's name, and I just know
him as the guy who loves Spider Man and then

(58:28):
us and but that is you know, it's a two
hour movie and these people each you know, have a
handful of lines, so not great anyway, I just wanted
to put that out there that I love that a
baby helps pull Spider Man. Shout out to baby. So
do we have any final thoughts about the movie and

(58:48):
how it portrays women before we get into talking about
whether or not it passes the Bechdel test. I like
was talking to my boyfriend about this this podcast and
the Bechdel Test, and he like knew a little bit
about it, but then he's like, what is it really
and then we like, don't worry Sophia. Couple doesn't know either,

(59:09):
so we end up looking like I just like image
searched the Beckdel test to show him the panels from
Dikes to watch out for. And there are all these
statistics that were related to the Bechdel test, you know,
which movie does this versus that? But then there was
also box office statistics. There's like a positive correlation between like,
if your product passes the Bechdel test, it also earns

(59:30):
more money. Yes, that's great to hear. And also I
guess not that surprising. Women make up half of the
population or more. Yeah, and they are. They go to movies.
We we they those women. I'm one of them, those exceptions.
I mean, I've seen that statistics too, and it's like

(59:50):
not surprising at all. And it doesn't even mean that
the that the movies are better, because the bar for
the Bechtel test is like kind of absurdly low to
make in with, it's insane. I mean, as we've discussed before,
the Bechdel tests sort of examines a larger problem, which
is that there just aren't enough women in movies. Most
of the time. They often don't play a significant enough

(01:00:12):
of a role where there would be several of them
talking to each other, which is just like it said,
a symptom of a larger problem where there's just not
enough representation of women in most movies. It's weird to
do like this episode about Spiderman two having very recently
done a Wonder Woman episode which like just fare so
much better how it passes in the test, and then

(01:00:38):
also just portraying women like it just like you like, oh,
woman's kicking out and driving this story well, and even
look at the bane Batman movie with Catwoman, Like there's
this whole subplot with her and Juno Temple like looking
out for each other. And it doesn't take much, you
know what I mean. And that's not time consuming. It's
not really anything people talk about in hearts that movie,

(01:01:01):
but it's yeah, it's something and it gives Yeah, And
like for anyone listening to this writing their own stories
and myths and whatnot, like just like start from scratch
and be like, all right, what does the character want
and how do they get it? Delete the like male
love interest, and then ask also like what does this
female character want and how does she get it? Like
outside of like dating Spider Man. That's really just all

(01:01:22):
you need to start and that you mentioned that. So
in in the first Spider Man movie, she's like I
want to move to New York and being actress, and
then we see like a little scene where she's like, oh,
I just had an audition and it didn't go very well.
But then after that she seems to have a pretty
successful acting career and modeling career because she's got this
whole billboard like a perfume ad and then she's like

(01:01:44):
one of the worst, but like and she's a terrible actress.
She's but somehow she's still doing well. But it's like
we never see her struggle in regards to her career
just anything else about her life. She I love this
boy who doesn't love me? Right, he just showed like yeah,
there's it's just careless. Yeah. Um. But let's talk about

(01:02:04):
whether or not the movie passes the Bechtel test. So
the first scene where women interact is Peter's surprise birthday party,
where aunt May goes, hey, I'm Jake, can you give
me a hand? And m J says, there's This is
one of those fucking infuriating scenes where it's like our
antennas go right up because we're like, oh, two women

(01:02:24):
are in the same scene. That's never happens. And then
it's like every time they speak, you're like and then
then it doesn't. This movie doesn't pass. But but there's
another near oh maybe in that scene where again, and
it's also ironic because they're both talking about domestic stuff
while Peter and Harry are talking about business. Um, but

(01:02:45):
aunt May says, let's go into the other room and
get something to eat, and then m J says, I
didn't know one in particular I'll get the O dirves.
Oh I didn't pick I didn't notice that one. But yeah,
two women speaking consecutively right, not really to each other.
And then the one I mentioned where she just goes,
m that's not a response, that's on the conversation and
she's not Yeah, she's not conversing because she's staring at

(01:03:06):
Peter and walking backwards. And did they catch in like
a fucking freak in the scene where James Franco goes,
you're busy, you're taking pictures of Spiderman twenty times. You're
busy pictures you're taking him. You tell me what didn't
you appears like I don't know, Oh my god, and

(01:03:33):
then they bring out the good night Bernard. There's an opportunity.
There's an opportunity for that scene to pass. Really, they
just need a few lines of dialogue back and forth
between Aunt May and MJ. Doesn't happen. The next scene
that I noticed was it's before MJ's show and she's

(01:03:54):
talking to her cast mate, and her cast mate's like, oh,
you've seen Jennery tonight, and I'm just like, you never
know who's coming. The application is that Peter's coming, but
find and it's like, not explicitly stated, it would be
a past except except that we don't know that other
characters name. Sorry, bitch. That's one of the caveats that
we adhere to on the Bectel cast. We have to

(01:04:16):
know the character's name because if they have a name,
they're important enough to the story where we would need
to know their name. But this character is pretty insignificant.
And then there's the second interaction that they have on
the street, well before that on the stage. Well, this
is the fun exception one because the importance of being
earnest does pass the Vactel test, and it passes the

(01:04:37):
facteals test on screen, but it's not Spider Man too,
and it wasn't written by anyone involved with Spider Man two.
So even though we could argue, if you know the play,
the importance of being earnest fun play, goofy nice, you
could say, well, we do know those characters names if

(01:04:57):
you have that knowledge of the play, that would be
that's asking a lot of comic book family asking. It's
asking a lot. And also it it doesn't and it's
not written by anyone involved with Spider Man, so it's
not it's a staged conversation that yeah, that's as close
exists outside of yeah. And then also we still don't

(01:05:17):
know that actress's name. And then they talk again after
the show and she's like, you sure didn't want to
come tonight, and I'm just like, yeah, I'm sure, a
great joke. I'll call you later. And if she said, okay,
thanks Steve, and then now we know the woman's name
is Steve, and then it would have passed. But but
we still don't know her name. So and then there's
the scene where they're at the party for astronaut Mike

(01:05:40):
Dexter and j Jonas Jamison's wife is like, beautiful dress,
but the woman doesn't respond, and also we don't know
her name or the woman she's talking to her name,
so doesn't pass. I also forget, I mean, weird, not relevant,
but Astronaut Mike Dexter's j Jonah Jamison's son that's in
the calm, Yeah is he? And he and he just

(01:06:02):
has like this perfect son. Well yeah, like he sir,
he becomes like plot points. His mortality effects j Jonah
Jamison's perception of Spider Man. I'll leave it at that
um And the same with some of these throwaway characters
is like like the ladies and stuff. They don't necessarily
become anything more than just like objects for Peter Parker
to like pine Over in the books. But I've been

(01:06:23):
trying to remember if that like, yeah, the the neighbor girl,
what her significance is, but I don't I keep But
that's never an excuse. And again, even if it was
like building to something that they thought they'd have, you know,
four more films with like, they all still exist to
like be his love interest. And sometimes like something that's
adapted from a book or comic book, they'll give a nod.

(01:06:43):
You know, they'll be like, oh, remember this, and like
the comic book will know who this is. But if
you're then going to put it in the movie, have
it serve a purpose not just be like remember this thing?
Do you recognize her? Cool? And if for everyone else
suck off? I think that, I mean, I think that's
why Astronaut Mike Dexter was kind of a fun character
for me, because he is really the only male character

(01:07:06):
in this and just in the context of strictly Spider
Man too, He's the only male character who is as
empty and purposeless as most of the female characters. So
it's like, well they've got you know, Mike Dexter doesn't
have a personality either. He's an astronaut, so if someone
kisses him he says, I'm on the moon right now,
it's like love this guy. So yeah, we conclude that

(01:07:30):
the movie does not pass the Bechtel test. It does
not not surprising. Like when James Franco yells to Alfred Mollino,
you're a hack. That's a fun one. I was like, oh,
I want to take that one to the green room there. Yeah,
the women don't even have good zingers except for the
I mean, and they get on get off is not
a zinger. It just landed funny. Right, Yeah, we'll give

(01:07:52):
We'll give the credit to Kirsten on that one way
to go. Good for you girl. Hey, let's write the
movie on our nipples scale. We have a scale of
zero to five nipples, where we rate the movie based
on its portrayal of women. I give it one nipple.
Who boy, I mean, Aunt May pretty good character for

(01:08:14):
who she is. But the only other substantial female character
is the main one, Mary Jane m j. Everyone else
like Miss Brandt and the landlord's daughter and dock Ox
wife Rosie. They you know, they're on screen for mere
minutes if that, and they don't have much to do

(01:08:34):
with the story, and neither does Mary Jane. Like she's like,
I'm here and wearing a dress. You can see my nipples.
You better capture me, take me to a tower, hold
me captive, chain me up, Chain me baby. Speaking of chains,
because how do I feel about because you are because
you are a man, we did have to chain you

(01:08:56):
to the chair and you're bound. Yeah, you're You're very good,
you know, but that is the price you pay for
this podcast. Your our first guest in like fifteen episodes
that has been a man, and I begged to be
on this broke the record and providing we had a
minute lashing out. Excellent shot. But in any case, so good, No,

(01:09:23):
you're wonderful, Thank you so much. But um yeah, so
m J. She sucks. She's a very watered down character,
you know, no depth, no dimension, just exists to be
captured and saved by the bad guys and the good guys.
So yeah, I because m J is just not a
good character. And the movie doesn't pass the back to tests,

(01:09:44):
and the portrayal woman not great. In this movie, not
surprising for superhero movies, especially of the era of the
early two thousand's uh yeah, one nipple. It belongs to
Toby McGuire in the scene where he takes up his
shirt in the window as he's getting ready for MJ's play.

(01:10:06):
Why do we need to see him take off his shirt?
We don't, But I like that it's there. I feel
like that's Sam Raimi shouting, like just in case anyone's
interested in whatever's going on there. I just I like
that we get sort of like because usually if there's
like unneeded nudity in a film, it's a woman taking
your clothes off, but now we get Toby maguire and

(01:10:27):
his like chise old Spider Man exo skeleton body. I'm
going to give it two apples, maybe maybe one and
a half instead of two. And I really, I really
do love this movie a lot. I had a great
time watching it for Alpha Bolena, but also just because
I think it's a super fun movie and superhero movies
have a really hard time keeping my attention and this

(01:10:49):
one never has, never will but the same reasons. I
think Aunt May is really the only fully realized female
character in this movie. And even then, all of her
actions and motivations are tied to the men in her life.
It does not do a good job with its female characters.
M J sucks all the other women we don't know

(01:11:10):
because we don't know them. Hey, one of them really
likes chocolate cake. That's her defining characters. Cake girl story.
I don't even care, but I get I'll give it
one and half nipples, and they belong to Bernard, who
I know isn't expecting that. Good night, Bernard even see

(01:11:32):
fun enough from Melina's nipples in this movie. You can
see the nipples in a lot of movies. To be fair,
you can trust me. I have like one of those
corkboards at home. You can figure out exactly what moments
in time you can anyway the nipple. Yeah, I'm going

(01:11:52):
to give it one nipple as well. Because of everything
you both said, I don't have much else to add
to it. The nipple I picked, though, is Mary Jane's
nipple from the first one. It exemplifies everything that we
take umbradge with, which is like women only like fit
best to inspire, uplift and challenge men not like to

(01:12:14):
be their own. So like here's this like dumb like
Lolita nipple, you know what I mean. Um, but yeah, yeah,
it is a fun movie. That's what's that's what sucks
about it is that you want to like it, but
it just they just stopped after like all right, well
we have like a good Spider Man journey, but not
like I don't know. Yeah, and I think about the
movie about like New Yorkers and all these voices and stuff.

(01:12:36):
It's it's amazingly like everything is just like a wash.
You know. Thank you so much for being here, a
really lovely time. I learned so much about Alfred Molina.
Happy to follow up. Subscribe to the newsletter. Where can
people follow you online? You can find me pretty much
on any social media platform just by typing s I

(01:12:58):
N A g R A c ian you know you
put an APT sign in front of it, or dot
com at the end of it. Look me up, hang out.
I try to buy your book. Yeah, I don't know.
Does the I don't know that the book passes the
Bechdel test only only in that so many scenes are
one on one interactions with me and a person. But

(01:13:20):
the women in it talk about a lot of things
that aren't romance, like we talk about careers, we talk
about grief like and then relationships because that's me. But
that's me, that's not what I think, like, oh, like
this is what you use a girl for, like you know.
So the book doesn't necessarily pass, but it gets a
pass because it's okay. Many of my favorite movies don't

(01:13:43):
pass the Bechdel test. I still love them, but Experiment
two is in my not movies don't yell at me.
I would say The Raiders are the Lost Ark another
Alfred Molina joint and joint that he's in again for
two minutes. I would not say passes the Backtel test,
but hey, let's do an episode about it. Let's find

(01:14:03):
out anyway. Yeah, by seeing his book, Nothing Last Forever.
Thanks again for being here. It's been wonderful. You can
follow us at Backtel cast, on Twitter, on Instagram. You
can listen to us and rate us and review us
on iTunes. So many platforms, so little bit time. Engage
with us on the platforms. We love tweet on us,

(01:14:24):
especially if your name is Alfred Molina. Answer and as
of today is during he has not tweeted back. Also,
we have a new what am I trying to say? Hey,
do you love the backdel Cast? Do you want to
think it less of a financial burden on the creators

(01:14:44):
of the back Doel Cast to continue the backdel Cast,
which you listen to for free all the time. Good news,
We will happily accept your money. That is what I
was trying to say. Yeah, we have an opportunity if
you so choose to kick us a few dollars, you know,
maybe spike us a few dollars if you're a Volley
doll gap, whatever verbs you choose. Yeah, we um have

(01:15:11):
some costs that we have to pay for it to
produce this podcast, and we would love it if you
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encourage you to donate to our show the way you
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up your religion and then give it to us instead.

(01:15:32):
We are your new religion. Welcome to your new religion.
We are going to need a lot of your money. Uh,
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(01:15:54):
us another verb, throw us a few dollars. They can
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tight tight, Yeah, you can hurt us. What's the verb
that they use in curling? That like Canadian ice? Cur
us dollar or two curls? Hey, you want to curl

(01:16:16):
me over a dollar? I'd love to Jamie, thank you
so much? Oh ya out? So that's something you do, um,
it would really help us out. We'd really appreciate it.
I think I have good night Bernard pulled up on
my compoke. Harry is looking at clips. He's hitting the table.
Where are your only obsession? Night? Oh it's so funny

(01:16:49):
And with that good night Burner