Tangled

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women in um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands?
Or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef invest start
changing it with the beck Del Cast. Oh, Jamie, let
down your hair. Wow, Caitlin, my hair is so unhealthy. Okay, Um,

(00:29):
we're gonna get about. Do you need to travel from
my shoulders to my scalp because that's about as far
as we're gonna get at this point in time. Oh great,
well then yeah, absolutely no problem. It will hurt a lot,
But like Rapunzel, I'm extremely self sacrificing for no reason,
So sure it hurt me. Oh do you actually we

(00:49):
just met? But should I like die for you? You know? Um,
welcome to the Bechdel Cast. We both have pretty short hair,
not like short, we're both we're both medium right now.
Mine used to be much shorter. I used to be
the baldest woman in charge and then and now I
would say, we're we're about right now. It's a really
equal leadership. We're both kind of medium right now, which

(01:13):
is which I think is a fair and just way
to rule a podcast. I think so I love parody
equality I wish, I wish I could do. I get
nervous about having a shorter haircut because I have a
weird head shape and I have a lump on top
of my head, and I just don't like calling too
much attention to my head. Don't say those things about
my friend Jamie. Look, I've I've known her for a

(01:37):
long time, and she has a lump on her head
and I don't have the confidence to embrace it at
this point in my life. Someday I'm gonna be calling
attention to this damn lump, because that's where all the
good ships happening, right in that little golf ball on
top of my head. Oh boy, Welcome to the Bechtel Cast.

(01:57):
My name is Jamie Loftus, my name is Caitlin Darante,
and this is our show where we examine movies through
an intersectional feminist lens, using, of course, the Bechdel test
simply as a jumping off point. Oh for sure, that
Bechdel test. Let me tell you about it, because there's
some things about it, but you're not going to expect
Just kidding. If you listen to the show, um, you

(02:18):
know what it is. Uh, we use it as a
jumping off point for discussion. It is a media metric
originally created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the
Bechdel Wallace Test. Many versions of this test. Our version
is this, are there two characters with names of a
marginalized gender who talked to each other about something other

(02:40):
than a man for two lines of dialogue? And very
often it doesn't happen very often, you know, in this
day and age and this economy, very often it does.
Either way, we're gonna talk about it for about two
seconds in one and a half hours, so don't worry
about it for now. Um, and today we are covering

(03:04):
on the main feed. I think this is what we've
been kind of making a concerted effort as of late
to uh knock out some of our top requests that
have literally been on our request list for at this
point more than half a decade, because look, enough is enough.
We understand there are certain films, Flims, pieces of cinema

(03:25):
that you pieces of cinema no, no, that go with it.
Commit Oh my god, I just in my head heard
a shattering glass sound and I'm just like you can
interpret that as my brain breaking, or you could interpret
it as me punging through the glass ceiling coming up
with a new incredible phrase. Pieces of cinema, I choose

(03:46):
the ladder. Wait, what happens at the end of What
does he say at the end of Saw? And then
he slams the door? He says, game over, slam. That's
what's happening in my head. Twenty four seven. Anytime I
encounter something that is confusing to me, and I just
take a nap and I'm kidding and I educate myself.

(04:07):
I learned, Okay, wow, okay, no no no, no, no
no no. Of course not of course, not doing really
weird lately, but that doesn't mean I'm not ready to
have some discorse about the movie Tangled with my friend Caitlin.

(04:28):
This movie has been on our list forever, Yes, it has.
Our listeners want this episode, and we decided, you know what,
it's time. It's time, and so that's what we're covering today.
Two thousand ten Disney animated film starring I didn't really
I knew it was Mandy Moore because I was a
childhood fan of Mandy Moore. I know I've talked about

(04:49):
this on the show before. I haven't had a Haunted
Mandy Moore Poster. I didn't know Zachary Levi was in
this movie, which is interesting to me because he's handsome.
That he is, and that's all I have to say.
And also Paul of Tompkins shout out to Pop Tompkins. Yeah,
there's some fun voice acting in this movie. Zachary Levi

(05:10):
Mr Shazam himself. I do confuse them of Zachary Quinto
sometimes due to their both being named Zachary and being handsome.
But this is Zachary. This is Shazam Zachary, not star
Trek Zachary. Correct. And that is how we distinguish them.
That is, that is famously how we do that. There's
Sam and Their Spots podcast, and there there are two

(05:32):
kinds of Zachary's Shazam and spak Sprouse. There's three kinds
of Zachary's. Oh right, Oh, you don't know the Sprouse
is off the tip. No wait, oh my god, I
got it wrong. It's Dylan. I was thinking of his
character zach from This Week Life of Zach and Cody.
I'm wrong, Glass shattering game over slam Well, Zachary Zachary. Listeners,

(05:56):
please let us know which of the two Zachary options
you are. Are you a Spock or Chosam. We're back
down to two. Sprouse is not an option because that
was a fictional character. I'm more spok, I think, Oh
I am definitely more of a Spok than a Chosam. Yeah,
because you didn't like Sham, as we talked about recently
on the Matreon. Um, I really broke some young man's

(06:20):
heart that day. Sorry sir. Anyway, Okay, Jamie, what is
your your relationship with Tangled? Oh my gosh, Um, I
did not see this movie when I came out. I
was in high school and I was like, I'm too
old for this. I don't need I don't need to
go see Tangled. You. So I did not see it

(06:42):
when it originally came out. I think I saw it
a couple of years later. My vague memory that is
completely useless and irrelevant about seeing this movie was I
saw it on DVD at a woman's house where I
was modeling T shirts for her question Mark. At some
point in college, I made money, um, in a lot
of shady ways. In college. I sold my blood and

(07:05):
I did that too. I mean, it's kind of a
time honored tradition in the grand uh in the grand
tradition of late capitalism. Of course, we both sold our blood.
And I also would do these like weird modeling gigs
where I'm pretty sure you're getting super ripped off that
you would wear like these ugly ass T shirts that
would say, like, you know, like corny early tens T

(07:29):
shirts that would be like, I'm trying to think, like
good morning is an oxy moron something like that. Kind
of I kind of like those better, I like Auntie
T shirts are fine with me, but this was like
sassy millennial like like bacon humor. It was bacon humor,
ultimately embarrassing. I hope they don't exist on the internet anymore.

(07:50):
But anyways, this random woman was doing my makeup at
her house and we watched Tangled, and then I'm pretty
sure I got my got my image exploited, I see,
But I liked it. And then I've and I've and
I've watched it a couple of times since. I think
it's like I've never thought very hard about it. But
I knew a little bit about the production around this movie,

(08:10):
and I'm excited to talk about it because it feels
like a very particular moment in time for Princess Energy.
So sure, what's your history. I don't think I saw
this in theaters, but I do remember seeing it probably
within a year of it coming out. I was living
in Boston at the time. Brave Me too, and we oh,

(08:33):
no way, I was still at home. Oh jeez, well,
I was living in Boston. I was not, um, a
supermodel like you were. Yeah. Yeah, people were datat pictures
of me in ugly shirts on their point and shoots.
So it sounds to me like you were doing some
like runway high fashion runway modeling. It was really sexy

(08:55):
what I was doing, for sure. Um No, I was
just kind of chilling in Boston. Probably saw this with
my friend j T. I remember liking it, but not
enough to be like, oh, this is gonna be in
my rotation kind of thing. So I didn't watch it
again until I want to say twenty nineteen, maybe sometime

(09:19):
around then. I went to a friends giving celebration at
a friend of the pod Sammy Junio's house, Love It,
and we decided that we were going to watch a
bunch of movies and that those movies could only start
with the letter T. So we watched three T movies,

(09:40):
the first one of course, being Titanic, the second one
being Terminator too, and the third one being Tangled. So
I saw it again and I was like, oh, this movie,
this is cute, this is this is better than I remember.
I like this movie. But then again, I didn't see
it again until prepping for this episode, so rewatching it,

(10:01):
especially through like the Bechtel cast lens Um, was an
interesting journey. I feel like there's there's a lot to discuss. Yeah,
this movie really is it. It's it's messing with you.
And I think when the first, like maybe one or
two times I saw it, it didn't really click for
me because it is for its faults, which we will

(10:23):
be discussing. I think it's a really fun movie. It's
like a good, engaging Disney movie that doesn't feel like
most other Disney movies. But not because it's you know,
amazing and progressive. It's just kind of different. It's actually
I like it. I like the chameleon Pascal. That was
the chameleon from the Minions test, wasn't it? It was

(10:46):
so listen. Famously, we all Jamie and I both took
a which Minion are you test? On your birthday of course,
I swear to god. I texted that damn quiz to
every person I've ever met and was like, I need
to know what many you are right now, because like,
is this friendship gonna sustain or not? Let's share our results?
Shall we mine? Sucks? Okay, yeah, Caitlin, now you're awesome.

(11:11):
Minions quiz results. I got Stewart, Is that right? I
don't even remember now Stewart Sieball the rock Star. I'm
classic me, you know, classic Caitlin. A bunch of people
in my life got Kevin's, which is like, okay, that's
if we're getting we're pulling a Kevin or a Stewart
result friend for life. Meanwhile, I pulled Grow. I got Grow.

(11:37):
I don't see it if if it makes you feel
any better, thank you so much. I don't know how
I got Grow, but it lowered my self esteem immeasurably.
I can't and on your birthday. It happened to me
on my birthday while we got the Minion's menu at
eye Hoop, which was gross disappointing. Oh my god. Okay,

(11:58):
last thing before we jump to the discourse the Minions.
First of all, I don't think I hop as one
of ours, our sponsors. Listeners are randomly generated, and so
we don't really know, but hopefully not. I hop because
the Minions menu, we were so looking forward to it.
Caitlin brilliantly decided we should go on my birthday. And

(12:20):
then we get there and what is the menu. It's
just existing menu items with Minions characters. Yeah, like pancakes,
but with yellow and blue sprinkles. Literally, minion come. Sorry,
but like that was that was the consistency. It was gross.
Are you suggesting that minions come, yes, yellow and blue sprinkles? Okay? No, no, no, no,

(12:46):
I was I was talking about the yellow gou. Oh,
the yellow okay, So there was banana flavored goo and
then sprinkles on top of that. Yeah, the goo was cold,
So I do think that minions come cold, yellow banana goo. Okay,
here's a thing not to derail this conversation even further,
but similar to the does beetle juice come wet or

(13:06):
dry scabs? You're in the camp of minions, come that
cold banana flavored goo. I'm in the camp of minions,
come yellow and blue sprinkles. See that's a fun kind
of changing of the narrative because with beetle juice. As
we're going to be debating come October, as we do
every year. I always say he comes dry scabs sounds

(13:28):
like card shuffling. You always say he comes wet scabs
like a laser jet printer. And in this case, I'm
team wet and your team dry exactly. Wow. What we
know for sure is that Minions, uh, they do not
sexually reproduce, so all of their sex is strictly for pleasure,

(13:50):
and I celebrate that, which I think is um kind
of amazing and progressive Minions progressive text. Okay, transitioning into
our discussion around Tangled. So we both have uh light
you know, light appreciation for this movie prior to prior

(14:10):
to covering it. I don't think either of us have
a particularly strong attachment. But I was thinking, as I
was watching this movie for you, what like, as much
as I was enjoying the movie, I'm like, what is
this movie doing that Shrek had not already done? Yes,
a question, a legitimate question, and I will say, well,

(14:36):
you know, my thing is like I do think that
Rapunzel has more certainly more screen time than Princess Fiona
certainly has a more distinct well, I don't even know there.
I think that Fiona might do more with less screen time,
and Shrek two thousand one is because she is. I mean, look,

(14:57):
did I rewatch Trek before this? No? Should I have?
Of course this is in a comparative study. I just
there's obviously, because Shrek is a rip off of literally everything,
Princess Fiona kind of has a Rapunzel thing going on.
She has trapped in a tower against her will and
needs to be rescued. Right, I would argue that Rapunzel

(15:19):
has in this movie, at least in this version of
the narrative, she has more agency than Fiona. She there's
no far quad. There's no far quad, so there's not
like a rival man. Right. The humor of the movie
does not rely on punching down in the way that

(15:41):
Shrek humor often does. Excuse me, or just like kind
of outdated references the way that Shrek tends to do.
I truly did not mean to start this as a
genuine conversation, but finishing it was a joke. I know,
but I think still a legitimate question. Donkey better than

(16:03):
Maximus certainly, Oh yeah, for sure, But I don't like
Maximus is the Max the Horses arc. I don't like
Max the Horse's arc. I say we cut Max honestly
because it's just my My central issue with this movie
is that it's there's so much Flynn, There's so much Flynn,
and there's like, why does Flint, even Flynn's horse, have

(16:24):
an arc? Why not give that to Rapunzel's animal familiar,
who is mostly just very adorable, which I love. But
I'm like, we're giving the horse an arc, but we
still don't have any empathy for the villain. Like I
just I was like, too much, too much Flynn. As
much as I think zach rely By is handsome, he's
a cartoon in this. So what why am I watching this? No?

(16:46):
I agree my very scholarly opinion. Yeah, I say Max,
take him to the backyard and put him down. That's
what I say about man. Wow, you want to send
him to the glue factor? Your face? Yeah, we gotta
turn Max into glue. I think he's he's mucking up
the story. I don't care about Flynn's rivalry with his

(17:08):
own horse. Well it's not his horse. Sorry. I I
as much as I love love a good horse, we
just went to medieval times. I love a good horse.
Oh my god, I went to the Kentucky Derby this year.
I love a good horse. Yeah. Okay, well that's I
think that brings us into the recap, because let's talk
about it. Here's the story of Rapunzel, or of Tangled Tangled,

(17:32):
which is also a huge thing. Why is the name different?
We'll still talk about it, yes, okay, So we open
by learning about Rapunzel's backstory, which is told to us
by Flynn Rider. We will meet him for what reason later?
Good question, and we are in you could say, medieval times.

(17:55):
Shout out to your recent birthday celebration. Shout out to
the Red Knight. Oh my god, Red Night, Red Night,
Red Night King, the king of medieval times. Okay, I
went a park, a drop of sun fell to the earth,
and a magic golden flower grew from it that had

(18:15):
the ability to heal the sick and injured if you
sing a special song to the flower. Put a pin
in that. There is a kingdom with a king and
a queen, and the queen is gregnant, and she is
about to have a greg but she gets really sick.
So the king's people, like the kingsman, reciput and go

(18:38):
out and search. This movie was missing a respute. Yeah,
where was Rescputen? Where was Resputen entangled? There, I'm gonna
start asking truly nonsense questions, start pivoting into extremely bad
faith analysis and being like, so, um, I thought this
movie was feminist, but then where was Resputen? Another question? Um? Okay?

(19:02):
So the kingsmen go out to look for this golden
flower to heal the queen. But there's this woman, mother Goffel,
who had already found the flower and has been hoarding
its power for centuries to keep herself young this whole time.
But the kingsman find the flower and take it to
the queen to heal her. She gives birth to a

(19:25):
little girl with golden hair, and this, of course is Rapunzel,
and to celebrate the birth of their daughter, the King
and Queen release a floating lantern into the sky. Adorable
love it cute, But then mother Gothel shows up. Rapunzel's
hair has the same magical properties as the flower, and

(19:46):
Gothel thinks she can cut some of the hair off
and use it to keep her young, but she discovers
that cutting this lock of Rapunzel's hair takes away its
magical properties and to her earns that strand of hair
that's still attached to her. Punzel's head renders it unmagical
and brown, gross brown hair bad you and me found

(20:13):
dead in a ditch like unbelievable. So basically, the hair
needs to be attached to Rapunzel's head in order for
it to retain its magical properties. So Gothel kidnaps Rapunzel
so that she can always have access to her hair.
Gothel keeps Rapunzel locked away in this tower hidden in

(20:33):
the forest, and raises Rapunzel as her own daughter, so
Rapunzel thinks that Gothel is her mother. Time passes, we
see Gozel singing this special song which activates the hair
and keeps her young. Um. We also learned that each year,
on Rapunzel's birthday at the castle far off in the distance,

(20:56):
the King and Queen release hundreds of lanterns into the sky,
hope being that their lost daughter will someday return. This
is something that Rapunzel always like watches and sees and
loves this event of the lanterns floating in the sky. Um. Okay,
So then we cut two Rapunzel as a teenager. She's

(21:17):
still living in the tower. Her hair is like a
hundred feet long since it can't be cut because it'll
lose its powers. And I've watched, um, I've watched shorts
on how I mean, I know that, like it's extremely
extremely hard to animate hair, And after under fully understanding
that process and working in animation, I was like, wow, this.

(21:41):
I wonder if if we have UM like legit animators
listening to the show, does watching these things with the
hair give you a panic attack? Because it stresses me
out and I don't even understand computer animation, UM, but
you're like wow, Wow. This was like the most expensive
UM Disney movie produced to date, and partially because of

(22:02):
development stuff that we'll talk about right. Also because like
the budget, like how many people you need to have
on hair duty alone is just like wild. Anyways, the
budget shout out to hair animators. The budget for this
was I think two and sixty million dollars, making it
one of the highest budget movies ever and the highest

(22:22):
budget animated movie of all time. I think. I don't
know if that record has been broken since then, but
it but it's just by other Disney movies, So I
don't think we need to give them more airtime. But
one of them was Zootopia, the movie I disliked the most. Okay,

(22:48):
so we learned about Rapunzel's life, which is pretty uneventful. Basically,
she just spends all day trying to keep herself occupied.
So she cleans, she cooks, she reads, she paints, she
plays guitar, she puts together puzzles, she plays chess. She
does all these things to occupy her time. And her
only friend is a chameleon named Pascal. She gets regular

(23:12):
visits from Gothel, but Gothel doesn't seem to live in
the tower with her, so Rapunzel is pretty isolated. The
point basically being that she wants much more than this
provincial life all the way down to like the I
feel like that had to be a Beauty in the
Beast reference for when she gets out of the tower
and there's that little what do you call those goddamn

(23:34):
poof plants um with the seedlings that fly into where
those are like dandelions, like dandelion, it's something about dandelions.
We're botanists, so we should not this um. But yeah,
that do you remember that? That's like a very specific
image and Beauty and the Beast I remember, And then

(23:54):
Rapunzel has the same image, but this time it's computers,
and she's in the middle of saying about how she
wants much more than this whatever tower life based life
hashtag tower life. So okay. So Rapunzela has decided to

(24:15):
ask Goszel if she can go outside and see the
floating lights, especially because tomorrow is Rapunzel's eighteenth birthday. And
she feels that these lights, which we know are the
lanterns that the castle releases, she feels that they're kind
of meant for her somehow, that she has some connection

(24:37):
to them. And Gothel is like, no way, I know
it's best for you. It's not safe out there. You
can't handle yourself out there. You're not strong enough to
go into this dangerous world. Yes, she's doing quite a
bit of nagging, poor Rapunzel. There's a lot to discuss

(24:58):
with this uh mother dog relationship, for sure, Yes, and
also with just like Gothel in general, because for all
of this movie seems to think it's subverting some of
which it actually is, a lot of which it isn't.
I feel like Gothel is like glaring, like we can
have sympathy for everyone, but uh, woman over Ford, right, Okay.

(25:21):
So meanwhile, Flynn writer the narrator guy who is a bandit,
steals a crown from the castle and is fleeing the
castle guards along with his two kind of like the
good buddies, the Stabbington brothers. Great name. Gotta hand it

(25:43):
to him. It sounds a lot like Paddington. Also, that's
his evil cousins. There's Paddington's and then there's Stabbington's. Um.
So do you think that that will be an element
of Paddington theory? God, that sounds like honestly, uh, robot
chicken pitch that would have been rejected from me, from you, yes, specifically, Well,

(26:06):
that's free for someone. So they're escaping. There's this horse
named Maximus, one of like the castle horses. Uh. He's
chasing Flynn, and Flynn escapes and but sabotages the Stabbington
brothers along the way. And then Flynn stumbles upon Rapunzel's tower.

(26:31):
He climbs it and goes into her room, and Rapunzel,
startled by this intruder, bonks him on the head with
a frying pan. There's a whole chat to have about that.
Classic a subversive bonk. Wow, hilarious. Um I actually have some,

(26:53):
you know, some unexpected thoughts about this. Perhaps, well, I
think I'm excited to have this discussion because this was
frying pan that didn't super broth. Same will unpack. But
but on first glance, you're just like, well, there it
is there, it is right. Yeah, there's no weapons in there.
So Rapunzel bonks him on the head and stuffs him

(27:13):
in her closet, and then she's like, wow, wait a minute,
I am strong enough to handle myself. So she lets
Flynn back out. She ties him up with her hair,
she hides his satchel with the crown that he stole,
and she's like, I will give you your satchel back
if you take me to see the lanterns tomorrow night.

(27:34):
He reluctantly agrees, and then she finally leaves her tower
for the first time, goes outside. She loves the freedom,
but she's also racked with guilt for disobeying her mother,
which I really thought was different and I liked that. Yeah, Oh,
they showed that emotional struggle for sure. Meanwhile, Flynn is

(27:57):
trying to get out of taking Rapunzel to see the
lanterns because he's a wanted man and he can't just go,
you know, gallivanting around, so he takes her to this
kind of like rough and tumble tavern with a lot
of scary ruffians. The twist is, but the twist is
they're nice. They're nice, especially after Rapunzel inspires them to

(28:22):
sing about their hopes and dreams. Kind of cute that
song that they say where they're like, I actually have dreams. Okay,
can you guess? Can you guess what other Disney song
that heavily reminded me of? Um? Is it the one
in Beauty and the Beast with Gaston singing in the tavern? No,

(28:45):
it is stick to the status quo from High School Musical,
because about like, I seem like one thing, but here's
my secret dream. I want to break dance. I like baking.
I'm a skateboarder, but I play the jella Anyways, that
I was just like, Wow, it's better. It's better the
high school musical song. I liked this song, but I

(29:06):
was like, kind of a flagrant rip off. Stick to
see what you're saying, same premise, pre incredible, yep, Okay,
thank you so much. That's why they pay me the
medium book inside like that, So they're singing about their
their dreams, and Gosfel is following them, as are the

(29:30):
castle guards, as are the Stabbington brothers. So Rapunzel and
Flynn have to run off and um. During this chase,
Rapunzel and Flynn get trapped in a mind shaft or something.
It's pitch black, it's filling with water. But then Rapunzel
remembers that her hair is magic and it glows when
you sing that special song, so she does that to

(29:51):
kind of light the way and allow them to escape.
She then uses her hair to heal a cut on
Flynn's hand, and he's like, oh my gosh, wow. And
then they're vibing and they're like flirting, and then he
goes off to get some firewood, much like Shrek goes
off to get some firewood after he and Fiona. How

(30:15):
men really? Do men who help you out of the tower?
Do you be getting firewood? Don't they? It is a
trope at this point. Yeah, So he's off and it's
just Rapunzel and then Gothel shows up and she's like
what the hell Rapunzel, and Rapunzel is like, Flynn likes me,
and I am enjoying this freedom and Gothel is like,

(30:39):
no way, he's just sticking around because he wants that
crown that you have and he'll leave you as soon
as he gets it, and she gives the crown back
to Rapunzel, and Gothel disappears with a with like a play.
You can you can tell she's like plotting something. So
the next morning we're Punzel and Flynn set off for
the castle and they befriend maximum missed the horse along

(31:01):
the way. They get to the castle, Rapunzel gets her
hair braided and then she livens up the place with
dance and music and drawings and everywhere that Rapunzel goes,
she just kind of inspires the best in people. She's
not like other girls. Caitlin, she's nice, question Mark, she's nice.

(31:22):
She and Flynn also seemed to be vibing more. And
then he takes her out on a little boat and
across the way the King and Queen release hundreds of lanterns.
It's very beautiful and romantic, and Rapunzel and Flynn almost kiss,
but oh no, the Stabbington brothers show up and they
want Rapunzel because Goffel had told them that she and

(31:45):
her hair are very valuable. So they try to kidnap
her um, but Goffel shows up and knocks them out.
While this is happening, it seems like Flynn has taken
off with the crown and like betrayed Rapunzel much while
not much like not to keep comparing this to Shrek,
but it's like that second act point during Shrek where

(32:06):
Shrek thinks that Fiona has is like saying that he's
not good enough for her, when really she's discussing her
own insecurities. So a misunderstanding is pulling the couple apart. True, yes,
Then Goffel takes Rapunzel back to her tower, where after
examining all the art that Rapunzel has made over the years,

(32:29):
she realizes a pattern the shape of the sun always appears,
which is like the symbol of the castle and kingdom,
and she realizes that she is the daughter of the
king and Queen. So she confronts Goffel now knowing that
she was kidnapped and the Gothel has been using Rapunzel's

(32:49):
magic hair all of these years, and they have an altercation. Meanwhile,
Flynn is about to be hanged for his like thievery,
but all the guys from the Tavern show up and
save him. So he gets on Max the horse and
races two Rapunzel's tower. But oh no, Gosseel stabs Flynn

(33:12):
when he shows up, which is I honestly I kind
of forgot that that happened. And I was like, whoa,
I know, I feel like you don't usually get that.
I didn't hate it, like I feel like I'm always
complaining about how Disney villains aren't allowed to be like
absolutely evil anymore. Um, and I was like, oh, she
literally stab Zachary Levi. That falls under the column of evil. Yeah,

(33:37):
it's it's more overt violence than we've seen in Disney
movies in a long time. Like usually there isn't like
if violence does happen, it's only very suggested, or it
happens off screen or someone falls off a cliff. But
I honestly did not. I mean, if I was a kid,
I probably would have been pretty scared, but like make

(33:58):
kids afraid again. Well the so, okay, what happens after
this is Rapunzel strikes a deal with Gothel. If she
lets Rapunzel, he'll Flynn with her hair. She will go
willingly with Gothel, but if not, she'll basically fight every
waking moment of her life to try to get away
from Gothel. So she goes to He'll Flynn, but he

(34:22):
chops off all of Rapunzel's hair, making her the baldest
woman in charge, so that Gothel will die and Rapunzel
will be free of her. But like Gothel's death here
is very scary for children's movie because like the horror
imagery of it all, Like if I was a kid
and I saw that they well they body horror the

(34:43):
ship out of this character for a moment one But
you're I totally agree where the ending is like brutal.
The only thing that they you know, I guess relieve
you of is you don't have to see her girl
splat because she turns into dust before she hits the ground.
I kind of love and someone turns to dust. But
it is also a very very witch canon to turn

(35:06):
evil witch canon to turn to dust, because that's what
happens to the Witch from the Wizard of Oz. She
just doesn't oh yeah, she just kind of melts and disappears.
Yeah yeah, yeah, but yeah, I mean we have there's
a whole discussion around Gotholpe, but that is that is
a pretty even by like Disney standards, twenty years before
this movie came out. That's a pretty scary ending totally.
And then the Rapunzel's whole being ready to die for

(35:30):
we'll talk about that too, because I was just like,
I felt like that was We're so close to like
a really cool, exciting, you know, princess aversion. And then
her agency is like taken from her at the very
end of the movie, right, especially because like he cuts
off her hair rather than like her cutting off her
own hair. It would have been much better this unrelated

(35:53):
but like he cuts her hair off into a perfect
picks he cut Um, incredible, well done, but whatever, that's um,
that's fun movie nonsense, but not fun movie nonsense. Was Yeah,
I felt like her And we'll talk about this in
more detail in a second, but like her agency was
completely like ripped from her at the peak of the movies,

(36:15):
at the action where she was like, you know, you
have to be a self sacrificing person to be considered
you know, legitimate, yeah woman, and um, and then he
made the decision that ends up saving everybody. Great who
and then and then we get closure with his fucking horse.
I'm sorry I'm anti the horse. Get the horse out

(36:38):
of there. Yeah, I see your point. Yeah, that was
very frustrating, and we'll we'll unpack that shortly. But basically,
the movie ends with Rapunzel and Flynn professing their love
for each other. As Flynn dies and desperate to save him,
she sings the song to you know heal his wound,
but it doesn't seem like it's going to work because

(37:00):
her hair has been chopped off and it's not magical anymore.
But then her tear drop falls on his face a
k A a drop of sunshine perhaps, and her magic
works and he comes back to life, and then they kiss,
and then they go to the castle and she's like, hi,

(37:22):
Mom and dad, it's me your daughter, but I have
brown hair now, and they're like, why is there? Okay
another like does another too much Flynn moment? Get Flynn
out of that scene. I don't need Flynn in that scene.
This is like And also their reunion is wordless question

(37:45):
mark between her and her parents. Yeah, why no words?
And why is Flynn there? Great questions? Yes, So Rapunzel
returns to the Kingdom. The Kingdom celebrates Rapunzel and Flynn
get married and they live happily ever after. So that's

(38:05):
the story. Let's take a quick break and come back
to discuss. And we're back. We're back, and I've let
down my hair. I haven't. It's a mess today. Um,
where do we want to start? I mean, I should

(38:27):
we just start with Rapunzel herself. Yeah, I would like
to talk about, you know, her as a Disney princess
and the way that as we've hinted at, like there
are some subversions to the kind of classic Disney fairytale princess.
There are tropes that get you know, reinforced in this movie.

(38:50):
There's there's a lot to unpack. Um, I would say overall,
and I guess it depends on kind of what era
of Disney princess movie you compare this too. She falls
into the very classic Like you know, she's kind of
stuck in the beginning. She wants much more than this
provincial life. Um, she's not motivated by love or romance

(39:12):
the way that like snow White is, She's more like
she's Yeah, she's definitely doing laps around the early Disney princess.
It's more it's closer to like Belle from Beauty and
the Beast where she longs for kind of just to
see what's out there in the world. She's a prisoner
for a large portion of the movie. Yes, like Bell.
So so there's that um she I would say, is

(39:35):
more active and has more agency than most Disney fairy
tale princesses of older generations up into a point at
least for a good amount of the movie. And then
there's a point where there's that comes to a screeching
halt in a way that I was like, really kind
of bummed out by. Yeah, I like the I I

(39:56):
really I like Rapunzela. I can see I it's like
this sort of thing where like I can see where
they were trying to go with her and also like
the shut off of where they were willing, like how
far they were willing to go. Because I do think
that there are Disney princesses that came and whatever. Here
we are comparing a group of fictional women to each other,

(40:17):
but they are all built from the same mold, like canonically,
um and I do think that there are princesses that
came before Rapunzel that like, were more active and progressive
than Rapunzel. Mulan. I think as a person who really
comes to mind there of like Rapunzel's not topping uh

(40:37):
Mulan in terms of her agency and activeness and sort
of fullness of story. But I do think that she is,
especially because this is like a Disney fairy tale movie.
She seems to be, you know, the most active of
the European fairy tale princesses, of which there are a

(40:58):
stunning amount. I like that she is involved in a
bunch of action sequences. I like that she at least
I think that a lot of them kind of come
up hollow and kind of um ring a little. I'm
banning the word girl boss from my vocabulary because I
think it's just like misused at this point, and like

(41:21):
sometimes people say girl boss when they say woman with agency,
and it's kind of like I think it's sometimes using
a misogynist way at this point, and it bothers me.
But I think that, you know, it's like, I don't know,
the Rapunzel stands up to her mom several times, but
it usually ends up being story wise, kind of a
hollow gesture because ultimately what severs her tie from her

(41:42):
mom something Flynn does whatever. But but I don't I
don't know they were definitely pros and constant. I like
her a lot. I like her a lot. I like
how she's written. I love Manny Moore's performance. I like
that she like us as all of the skills that
she has, and like participates in the action usually in

(42:06):
about equal measure. She rescues Flynn a number of times.
He also rescues her. But it does feel like, I mean,
even though whatever, we've already said this and will continue
to discuss, Like, I think Flynn has an outsized presence
in this movie in a way that is not you know,
I mean, there's Disney executives that say that that was
very on purpose, but given that that is the choice

(42:30):
they made. I like that they are usually fighting and
rescuing each other in equal measure. Like, it's not like
and that she you know, she's using her hair. She's
like tarzanning around on her fucking hair. It's really cool.
She does fight and defend herself. She chooses to deceive

(42:50):
her mom, she chooses to you know, take Flynn as
her hostage, and I like it. I like her. Yeah,
there's also like she's cool. Not only is she able
to engage in like combat, she also um like chooses
non violence sometimes where like that scene in the tavern,
which I think is also an interesting subversion of like

(43:12):
but you would expect of like, oh, all these like
toxic men end up being like I want to be
a concert pianist, I want to be a mom. You know,
like all these artistic pursuits doesn't mean that you can't
also be toxic if you're a male artist. But I
just the point is, you know, she inspires, like she

(43:34):
inspires people to follow their dreams, and she inspires the
best in people. Um, but I agree, Yeah, there there
is an outside presence of the male lead in the movie,
which which men in general and in general, like there's
so many ancillary men in this movie. I feel that

(43:55):
because I like this movie and I'm coming down harder
on it than I'm expecting to I was expecting to.
But I do I mean Rapunza, Yeah, I totally agree
with you. Where it's like she has moments of action
and combat and then she also has moments where she
chooses non violence and it pays off in a big way.
I think that that's good. I feel like often empathy

(44:16):
and listening to people is regarded as a very like
traditionally feminine trait, and sometimes that's presented as bad as
a weakness. Yeah, when it's like when it's the reality
is like everyone should everyone has the capacity for that,
and everyone, regardless of gender right can do everything right right,

(44:38):
And it's like everyone is capable of empathy. So that
I like that she chooses moments and then then the
same as much as I can't stand the horse, she
negotiates with the horse and one moment where and and
and it does feel like that's intentionally done because there
are moments where Flynn is choosing combat again and again,

(44:59):
and then it's Rapunzel's talking and listening to people that
actually resolves the problem in the tavern and with the horse,
because Flynn is also fighting his horse, because why is
this horse here? Um? And that like on Flynn's and
his you know, penchant for swashbuckling is you know, masking
a lot of his own insecurities, which we learn about,

(45:23):
We learned his back story. We learned that he has
like kind of put on this fake persona as a
defense mechanism. More or less, he wants, he wanted much
more than that orphanage life. Um. So, so you know,
I like, I liked I liked that. I like Rapunzel
is like a more I feel like she had. She

(45:44):
has traits that your traditional Disney princess has, which is
like extreme loyalty, a lot of empathyness. Empathy inspires people
to follow her your dreams, like you're saying. But also
the those are traits that are very important to who
she is. But it's not like all she's capable. She

(46:06):
gets angry, she understands, at least when her mother's disrespecting her.
She doesn't always even to understand Flinn's doing it. But um,
Rapunzel is. I like her. I'm pro I just think
that there are certain things that um undercut what a
cool character they set up there, such as and we

(46:27):
hinted at this also, but the big climactic moment at
the end is her ending up with a man and
like being in a Head of Row romance. When the
narrative that had been set up for her was I
want to escape this tower. I want to like go
and see the lanterns, which could be kind of code
at for just like I want to see the world

(46:50):
and explore and discover who I am, she wants to
be where the people are. Disney prince basic ship. She
wants to or and slash Quasimodo like Wealthy Mottel also
Tower canon, get me out of this tower cannon evil
person in the Tower canon. So so she has these
kind of dreams too. But then also like you could

(47:14):
argue that like her wanting to go out and and
and you know, discover herself, discover the world her, you know,
find her place in the world. Part of a lot
of people's journey of self discovery involves figuring out what
type of relationships you want to be in, and some
of those relationships might be romantic, so you know that

(47:36):
is a thing for a lot of people. Um, but
it just it still feels like here we are with
another like Disney Fairytale Princess story, and of course she
has to end up in a hetero romance at the end,
right And it's like they I think it's interesting and
very like of the time, how they choose to skirt

(48:00):
the fact that that's absolutely what they're doing. I thought
it was like I I Caitlin I l o lt
when they do this fucking like gymnastics thing at the
end where they're like, well we didn't get married right
away and it's like all done in voiceover, was like,
we didn't get married right away, but a couple of years,
and we dated for a couple of years, and then
of course we got married. And then you still see

(48:22):
the wedding like you do at the end of any
fucking Disney movie. But they they do this really quick,
like oh, no, we get it. That's like that's weird,
and you're like, well, in whatever royalty, that's not actually
really that weird. But they're like, but no, we dated,
we're regular, We're just like you, and then we and
then the movie ends exactly like you know it's going

(48:43):
to end. I just like that was like I think
one of the many like two like we're trying to
do something, but actually we are not courageous enough to
actually stick the landing on doing it, which is a
lot of things in this movie. I thought that, like, well, actually,
before we get to Flynn, let's talk frying pan. Is

(49:04):
it frying pan time? Let's let's pivoting to frying pans.
Let's take a let's take a break, and then we'll
get to frying pan. So be right back and we
are back. We're back, all right, frying pan time for

(49:27):
frying pan discourse. So I mean, let's kind of I
think that this is kind of I have a feeling
we're on the same track with this, and I think
it's an interesting look. We've been doing the show for
six years now, and I think that there has been
a lot of um development in ways to have feminist

(49:48):
and intersectional feminist discourse during that time. Certainly, I think
perhaps we would have had a more kind of uh,
I guess there's a very two intends way to criticize
some movies that maybe don't hold up as well now,
and I think frying pan discourse um is an area

(50:12):
where there's been a little bit of shifting. So that mind,
let's let's talk frying pan. So Rapunzel for people who
haven't seen Tangled but are still listening, and we celebrate
that Rapunzel her like go to weapon is frying frying pan,
which we have said on this show before, and I
think in some cases it genuinely is true. Can be

(50:34):
a sort of sexist trope. We've seen it many times,
and I think in a lot of older movies it
is kind of a sexist trope where it's just like, well,
what would a woman fight with body, very domestic object.
That's the basis of frying pan discourse. We we have
talked about this trope a lot on the cast where
what we tend to see in movies is combat scenes.

(50:57):
If women are allowed to participate in the action, the
story is written so that the women are made to
fight with household objects, and frying pan comes up again
and again. We saw this in like Raiders of the
Lost Art we see it and who framed Roger Rabbit
other examples that I can't remember off the top of
my head. I think a lot of horror movies this happens. Yeah,

(51:19):
I mean there's a lot of kitchen knife staff the
original Halloween that makes more sense, but um, there's also
Disney cartoons this has taken place in like sure plenty
of times. I don't think by a primary character, but
I do specifically remember like a villager from Beauty and
the Beast fighting with a frying pan like this has

(51:41):
happened in animation, live action for for generations generations. So
this is what women are expected to fight with, whereas
men in the same combat scenes in the same movie
are equipped with weapons, actual weapons that they fight with.
The implication often being well women can't Slash don't know

(52:05):
how Slash, don't have the skills, Slash could never develop
the skills to fight with weapons. But they do know
their way around frying pans and other household objects, ones
that are especially gendered if you consider, like, oh, well,
women have historically been expected to cook and clean, so
they know how to use like frying pans and brooms,

(52:28):
and those are their weapons now. So, like you said,
a lot of movies in those scenes do have those
sexist implications. But as with pretty much everything, context is
very important. And when you consider Rapunzel's context, where by
you know, whereby whereby whereby? Gothel controls everything that Rapunzel

(52:58):
has access to, and this is a whole separate conversation,
and she certainly wouldn't be giving Rapunzel access to weapons
of any kind. Exactly. The only thing that Rapunzel does
have access to our household items. And if you have
an intruder, a cast iron skillet is a pretty decent weapon.
It's heavy, it'll do damage, it's got to handle, so

(53:21):
it's easy to wield, etcetera. I was kind of saying,
I was thinking of like, just because the opening song
is like puns getting more and more bored of the
mostly domestic, e kind of tasks and activities that are
made available to her. Um which again, like that context
is important. It's not like she has a choice of
everything to do in the world and she's choosing sewing, cooking, cleaning,

(53:44):
like those are the only things she's given to do.
Her life is very thoroughly controlled. So totally the only
other thing I was like, m get those knitting needles
in in the mix, but it's like the cats are
in skillet I I totally agree, is like the most
easily yield the ball weapon And why does she use it?
She uses it quite a bit, to the point where
it becomes a motif throughout the movie, where so Flynn

(54:08):
uses it himself as a weapon, which I thought was cool.
So what happens basically that the trajectory of the frying
pan is this where Puntal uses it several times on
Flynn when he first comes into the tower, and she
like does damage with it. She knocks him unconscious several times.
She then brings it along on the journey outside of

(54:29):
the tower and brandishes it as a weapon anytime she
feels she's in danger. So that happens a number of
times later, Like you said, Flynn uses it as a
weapon when he's fighting off the guards in that scene
what they're at the damn and he loves it. He's like, Wow,
this is such an effective weapon. I'm going to get
myself days and it is. And then towards the end,

(54:51):
when the Ruffians are saving Flynn from being hanged, one
of them uses the frying pan to knock out a
guard and he and Flynn are both like, wooho, what
an awesome weapon. So, while this trope has been seen
again and again in movies, specifically with women wielding a
fronting pan as a weapon, I feel like when you

(55:13):
consider the context and what Rapunzel has access to, and
the fact that it then is used as a weapon
by multiple characters across the gender spectrum, I feel like
it's a little bit more nuanced and tangled. I agree,
um yeah, And I like that they kind of it almost.
It felt more like they were commenting on that trope

(55:37):
that when it appears as often very baseless and like
you were saying, with the assumption that it's like this
is all they would know how to use because women
are pans, But in this case, they I got contextualized
it well, Rapunzel wield it as a weapon over and over,
did we I mean, and and I whatever. I think

(55:58):
that this is open for criticism. But the fact that
Flynn validated it as a weapon, which like m hm,
but two ten, I see what they were trying to do.
So yeah, I think maybe maybe a bit of a
twist on the pan discourse you're expecting exactly. So let's

(56:18):
let's get into Flynn a little bit. Um So, he's
kind of he's a bit of an Aladdin type. Um.
I would say he's he's a steeler, he's a crimer.
He doesn't have a mama or a dad, you know,
he doesn't have a parent, So he's like Aladdin without
the class stuff basically. Sure, so he's kind of swashbuckling around.

(56:43):
The thing is like with Flynn for the most part,
I like, don't dislike him as a character. I do
think there's a lot of things he does at the
beginning of the narrative with Rapunzel where he clearly wants
to get rid of her. He just wants to get
what he needs and go on his way. And I
get that that's his character journey. He needs to realize
that that's a shitty way to behave. But he's pretty

(57:07):
cruel to her at the beginning and like notices her
insecurities and fear of her own mother, and instead of
talking to her about it, weaponizes it against her two
times back to back. At first he was like, I've
noticed that you are feeling a lot of grief and
guilt and confusion about whether you should be like striking

(57:30):
out on your own, which to go back to a
puzzle for a second, I thought, was I liked that
they showed that in her where like it felt like
you know, for Disney fantasy movie, pretty realistic of like
her mom repeatedly guilts her for like thinking she would
be capable of doing it anything, So of course when
she gets out and she enjoys it, she's like, I'm

(57:52):
a horrible person. No great, the complicated feelings, right, which
is a relatable feeling to some extent for for a
lot of people. But Flynn, you know, obviously like notices
exactly what's going on and instead uses it instead of
saying what is obvious, which is like your mom treats
you really badly and like you should feel okay about

(58:14):
striking out on your own, like you're not doing anything wrong.
He had Stead says like, wow, looks like you like
he does exactly what her mom does, and he does
that a couple different times. And as much as I
appreciate that you get context into Flynn's character and you
get some insight into why he is the way he is,

(58:34):
I felt like it was like a pointed thing that
you get that for Flynn, who treats her the same
way as Gothel at the beginning of the movie. But
you don't get that for Gothel. She is just a
villainous villain who is old but wants to be young,
and that is it. There is no more context we'll

(58:54):
get into discussion around her, but the whole like you
know old Crone stereotype that like an anxiety around aging
for women is a personal defect and not part of
a larger societal pressure. It's like, oh, that's that's on you,
which I thought was kind of like incredible that they
didn't like in two thousand ten. I felt like, come on,

(59:18):
but you know, like Flynn certainly grows as a character
throughout the movie whatever, Like he has an outsized presence
in the movie, which is why you get the context
for him that you do. Um, I think that context
is pretty effective. But he never like correct me Mark.
He never really apologizes for doing what he does at

(59:40):
the beginning, which is very manipulative and cruel. It's not nice,
that's not boyfriendship to do. Yeah. I was frustrated by
the romantic storyline because you know that that's where it's going,
that they're going to end up together. We saw it
in Trek, We saw it in every fairy tale ever made,
but most importantly, most importantly in Trek, where he starts

(01:00:05):
out as a dick. Yeah, he's manipulative. He weaponizes her
own insecurities against her. He tries to like seduce her
at various moments where he's like, let me do this, smolder.
You know, he's just trying to like use various manipulation
tactics to get what he wants out of her, and
doesn't treat her well along the way. Uh. Of course

(01:00:28):
he does soften up as the story goes. I also
don't really know why they like each other by the end.
This is a problem I have with most romantic storylines
and movies, where it's like, well, yes, they're both attractive
and they are near each other, but what else, why
else are they drawn to each other in a sustainable

(01:00:49):
way that would like sustain a relationship. I don't really
see it here at least. And this is like giving
the movie probably credit that it doesn't do serve but um,
because Rapunzel has been locked in a tower for eighteen
years and has never ventured out into the world, there
was I thought a big danger of the born Sexy

(01:01:13):
Yesterday trope being leaned into where she wouldn't know anything.
She wouldn't know sure what common objects were, or like
how to interact with people or things like that. She
does fall in love with the first man she meets, Yes,
that is part of that trope, but she is able
to hold her own as a person out in the

(01:01:34):
world far better than you know, other born Sexy Yesterday tropes.
I agree, And I think that that is like contextualized
by the fact that she interacts with her mom all
the time, who like doesn't seem to have a vested
interest in keeping her away from very basic knowledge. And
she read the toun so it's not like she would
have any understanding of how that works. So that all

(01:01:57):
made sense for me in context, And I feel like
saved us a lot of annoying trophy, like what is this? Um? Yeah, yeah,
Like I think the only moment you get that is
when she puts her feet on the grass, which I
thought was actually kind of beautiful and made me tear up.
It was nice. Um. But yeah, so I appreciate it
that that wasn't a part of the story. But Flynn overall,

(01:02:23):
it is especially annoying to me because and maybe maybe
I could be talked out of this. But her goal,
her desire that drives most of the narrative is to
go see these lanterns, which again you can kind of
interpret as just a larger like I want to venture

(01:02:44):
out into the world and see what the world has
to offer and see where what my places in the world.
Because she also like feels this connection. She's like, who
am I What these lanterns happen on my birthday? Is
it related to me and my backs? You know? She like,
once to figure out all these things totally all works
for me, And I wish that that had been the

(01:03:04):
actual resolution of the story in the big climactic moment
rather than and it's part of it, of course, but
the big climactic moment having her recaptured, recaped, and then
like she has to save Flynn, and she's prepared to
like sacrifice her freedom in order to save him. And then,

(01:03:26):
like we said, he's the one who chops off her
hair thereby saving her, which takes away her agency. I
saved her from herself, Like I just really didn't like that.
I kind of forgot that that was how it ended.
I remembered that her hair gets cut off, and that's
how like the villain is defeated. But I thought I

(01:03:47):
was like certain that she cut off her own hair
so that when so when he did it, I was like, what,
that's ridiculous. Well, here here's Jamie's a little hot tech.
If she were the protagonist of the movie, she would
have But I don't think she's the protagonist of the movie.
I think it's Flynn because of all this other stuff
that we'll talk about in a second. But like, if
the protagonists in the movie is going to do anything,

(01:04:08):
it's going to be defeat the villain. She doesn't defeat
the villain that she has the closer relationship with. Flynn
has never met this lady, Like there's no reason, even
like storytelling, why is that he would be the one
to defeat a villain he has no connection to we've
seen like everything, I kind of wonder at what, like
if there there has to be a draft of this

(01:04:29):
script where she does it, because that's what the whole
movie is fucking building. We see her, she has two
or three I thought, pretty effective confrontations, and she keeps
trying to escape her mother's grasp and then is not successful.
That doesn't even bother me, Like she's in this like
abusive situation you don't always get out on the first try.

(01:04:52):
But it's a fucking kids fantasy movie. She should be
the one to remove herself from the situation at the end,
but she's in stead ready to trap herself in that
situation permanently in order to rescue the first guy she's
ever met. And it's just like I felt like it
doubled down worse than Disney movies that were coming out

(01:05:14):
twenty years before this, Like it just it really bumped
me out, Like she doesn't get to kill the fucking villain,
especially we have spent so much time, Like it would
have been so satisfying if she and it still would
have had all the ages stuff going on, but it
would have like I just like, it doesn't even make
sense as a movie for Flynn to be the one

(01:05:35):
to initiate the ending. But I think that he's like
the movies protagonist. Honestly, we see it's more than change
in him than we see change in Rapunzel. He's the
first fucking face you see on the screen. He's narrating
the movie for some reason. I don't even think she's
the protagonist of her own movie, which is why that's
like it bothers me. I would maybe argue that she

(01:05:58):
is like a dual protagonist situation, but why it should
just be Rapunzel. He doesn't have a song, I guess
except for this song where they're like kiss the Girling.
I mean, it's it's her desire and goal that drives
the narrative, So I would are you dual protagonists? But
even so, it's like, well, it's a princess movie. Why

(01:06:20):
are we I think that that, Like that's something that
bothers me, is like they're like, the way that we're
going to subvert the princess movie is by making a
man a dual protagonist. Like that just does not work
for me. Not that it's like you can't have a
buddy movie with characters of more than one gender. That's
totally fine, but it's like, just because of the way

(01:06:43):
this movie was specifically marketed as like this is a
new kind of princess movie, where a lot of the
princess movies suck ass and are like reinforcing every trope
in the book and every stereotype in the book. But
at least they are clearly the protagonist. I agree with
what you're saying, like Nn isn't the um soul protagonist,

(01:07:06):
but it doesn't make any fucking sense that he gets
the final blow in that storyline, especially because the movie
up until that point seems to have a very vested
interest in making Rapunzel way more active, especially versus how
she is in the brother's grim fairy tale version of

(01:07:27):
the story. That's why I feel like pretty convinced that
there had to be a different draft of because this
movie was in development for nine thousand years and its
first draft was and they said this themselves, not in
this delightful way, but um Shreky in yes, where they
literally like we're going to do Rapunzel Shrek. But then

(01:07:49):
you know, later on in production they're like, well, we
want to like give this a more wholesome core, a
more Disney core. So you have those shreky and elements
and then you have those Disney elements. And I think
that that is the place where it's like chafing the hardest,
because if you're trying to have Flynn Ryder be Shrek,
first of all, it's not going to happen. Honey. There's

(01:08:11):
only one There's only one truck, and I wouldn't have
it any other way. But it really bugged me. Okay,
So actually, let's well, because it keeps coming up. The
production of this movie. It was in development forever. It
was originally announced as Rapunzel Unbraided in October two thousand

(01:08:34):
and three, which the director himself described as a Shrek
like version of the film. He didn't think to because
the word shreky and wasn't around back then. This was
Glenn key who started developing the story in nineteen six.
He eventually left left the project. Um but yeah, because

(01:08:56):
it wasn't shreky and enough. It wasn't. He's like, not
not sure, keen enough, I'm leaving. I'm out fair enough.
But yeah, So it started as a Glenn Keene Shrek
rip off, which is wildau Shruck was made despite Disney whatever.
The story has been told a million times, but like
it was supposed to take place in San Francisco and
revolve around teenagers named Claire and Vince, question mark, it

(01:09:19):
kind of sounds more like Enchanted than it sounds like
Shrek or Tangled. Um, but anyways, that is obviously not
uh what ended up happening. So then eventually Glenn Keene
leaves the project. Rapunzel Umbraided is changed to Rapunzel, which
makes sense. Most of the Princess movies are named for

(01:09:42):
the protagonist, um with I think the exception of Beauty
and the Beast um, but you've got the Little Mermaids,
snow White, Sleeping Beauty. Jasmine is not the protagonist of Aladdin,
so there you what Pocahontas which but it is named
after her, and so the movie is going to be

(01:10:04):
called Rapunzel. The Princess and the Frog is the one
that comes immediately before this. So the story here is
that Princess and the Frog comes out the year before Tangled.
And while it was like people enjoyed the movie, you
can listen to our episode about it that we we
simply cannot get into it right now. There's pros and cons.

(01:10:26):
But the movie was considered to have underperformed at the
box office. And the reason that they decided that it
underperformed at the box office is because the word princess
was in the title, which, allegedly, per Disney executives, meant
that young boys would not want to see a movie
with the word princess in the title, or a movie

(01:10:49):
named after a princess. So they rework the story to
have to protagonists, including an action boy named Flynn Ryder,
and they change the movie's title from Rapunzel two Tangled,
which I think rightfully caused a lot of controversy and
I think annoyance within the company. Um onkind of quote

(01:11:13):
a former Disney Pixar animator named Floyd Norman, who said, quote,
the idea of changing the title of a classic like
Rapunzel to Tangle just beyond stupid. I'm convinced they'll gain
nothing from this except the public seeing Disney as desperately
trying to find an audience. We've got another writer named
Margot McGowan saying, can you imagine if Disney switched to

(01:11:35):
movie title so it wouldn't risk highlighting a male star.
It's awful that this kind of radical gender discrimination exists
for our smallest people, which at first I was like,
what do you mean by that? She means kids, children,
little little kids who come into this world with huge
imaginations and aspirations, big dreams that get squashed by a
bunch of billionaire guys who run massive entertainment franchises. People

(01:11:55):
had fun with, you know, being like, what what are
we gonna call Little Mermaid beached or whatever? Like it
is kind of an obvious thing. And then UM famous
sexual harasser John Lasseter finally spoke out on the issue
UM four years after the movie is released in March
um saying that this was in fact why it had

(01:12:18):
been done, in order to and this is like very
business e in the in the Weeds terminology that I
didn't even know existed improve the film's appeal to the
four quadrants UM, father's Son, Holy Spirit, and women. Um.
There but Lassater says, quote, there was an audience perception

(01:12:41):
that these movies were just for little girls. But when boys,
men whatever actually see these movies, they liked them. So
on Rapunzela, we changed the name and we called it Tangled.
We did marketing that made the people who would not
normally show up say, hey, this looks pretty good unquote,
and um, the movie did do very well at the
box office, or at least outperformed what the Princess and

(01:13:03):
the Frog had taken in. And so I think that
this ethos was considered like, alright, cool male protagonist. I
went back and watched two of the official trailers for
this movie, and both of them make it seem like
Flynn Ryder is the sole protagonist of the movie and

(01:13:27):
the Rapunzel is barely a character based on just like
the screen time and the activity that both characters are
allotted in the trailers, and both of the trailers really
emphasized Finn's Flynn what is it Flynn's Flynn's swashbuckling and

(01:13:47):
like all of his his like he's riding horses, he's fighting,
he's doing all this stuff that has featured far more
prominently than anything related to Rapunzel's story and her like
I have this and I want to go on that
is left out of the marketing, exhausting the movie. I
remember a similar thing happening to Mohanna, where I was

(01:14:08):
watching mo Wanna trailers and now he was the protagonists,
so which at least they were able to name the
movie Mohanna, Like, it does seem like and maybe it
was like Frozen that was able to turn this car
around and like having dual female protagonists being wildly successful.

(01:14:29):
They're like, maybe we don't need to go down this
road of giving the love interest this outsize presence in
the movie. I that's my guess off the top of
my head of why you were allowed to name movies
after female protagonists. Again, it's all money. It has nothing
to do with you know, giving a shit about equity
or anything like that. Um, but um, you know, I'm

(01:14:53):
sure that Frozen being a billion dollar franchise contributed to that.
But this is such a bizarre moment for Like, it
sucks because Rapunzel is a very cool character and I
don't I don't even mind that Flynn has I think
it it is actually like a positive adjustment for the
princess world that I mean, such a popular criticism of

(01:15:17):
Disney princesses is that the Disney princes is that they
have no personality and they're boring and you have no
idea why she would be interested in him. This movie
feels like a major overcorrection of that issue. I think
that Flynn having a personality is great. I like that

(01:15:39):
now and in Frozen, which is not a movie that
I have any love for. Really like Frozen too much better,
but um, you know, the love interests have or like
Anna's husband guy has a personality, like you at least
have some understanding of why are there at least attempting
to let you know why they're interested in each other.

(01:16:00):
I think that that's important and good. There are still
two white hetero couples giving a man more of a personality.
It feels like a real half step in sideways. But
but it's whatever the point being like, great, let's have
Flynn have a personality, But that doesn't mean that giving
him a personality means the movie should then be about him.

(01:16:24):
Plus like especially when that personality is he's kind of
a dick for a large swath of the movie, right right,
and it feels like he's like, well, it's okay that
I'm a dick because I'm better, and you're like, well,
but I do feel like they try, which is also
a very Disney choice, and I know that that's a
lot of like I feel like with Rapunzel, she is

(01:16:47):
a very abused person, and she's still extremely kind and
extremely empathetic and wants to see the best in people.
So it doesn't really play for me that it's like, well,
Flynn grew up in an orphanage, which obviously is an
extremely difficult thing, but they've both had difficult childhoods. It
doesn't make it okay that he treats her like garbage,
Like yeah, so, which does that transition us to the

(01:17:13):
mother daughter relationship discussion. Let's talk about every movie's about
fathers and sons. Not this time, baby it's about it's
about mothers and daughters and Flynn Ryder. For some reason,
I have a spiel about this. Here we go go off,
thank you so Disney fairy Tale, Disney fairy Tales. As

(01:17:37):
we've discussed, yes, as we've discussed endlessly on the podcast,
they have a sordid history with mother daughter relationships because
usually the mother is dead and or there's an evil
stepmother situation. They don't kill the mother in this one.

(01:17:57):
They just almost kill her. It just don't let her talk,
They don't let her speak, and he almost dies. But
then they're like, but then we saved her, We saved
her and she's good now, and she's good and and
and so in this movie there is an evil foster
mother slash kidnapper slash captor. But because Rapunzel thinks this

(01:18:18):
is her real mother for most of the movie, let's
just call it a mother daughter relationship, even though it's
I mean, she was raised as Gothel's daughter exactly. Yes,
so we've got so let's examine Gothel for a moment.
She is emotionally abusive, she's manipulative, she gaslights Rapunzel constantly.

(01:18:39):
She's obviously using Rapunzel for her powers. So a Gothel
is dependent on Rapunzel and then has created a situation
where Rapunzel has no choice but to be dependent on Goffel.
And part of this is Gothel completely isolating Rapunzel and
being very controlling of Rapunzel's life and what she does

(01:19:02):
and does not have access to. Gothel also makes insulting
remarks to Rapunzel that she insists our jokes and then
says things like stop taking everything so seriously. Gothel blames
her own abuse of behavior on Rapunzel and then says
things like you're making me the bad guy, trying to
make Rapunzel feel guilty. So even though we do not

(01:19:27):
have a lot of great examples of loving, caring, non
toxic mother daughter relationships in movies, because most movies aren't
about mother daughter relationships, the relationship we see in this
movie is very similar to plenty of real life mother
daughter relationships. And I know that there are people who

(01:19:48):
feel very seen by this particular relationship dynamic, which is important.
People like, regardless of their circumstances, want to feel represented
and seen and validated. And and I think like the
focus on a parent child relationship in a movie of
this genre that isn't uncomplicated is cool and I feel

(01:20:09):
like it kind of Um, I don't know, I'm trying
to think of other parents. Like in earlier Disney movies,
parents are either absent, dead or you have like a
well meaning but ultimately harmful father whose behavior is never
really called out. Thinking about King Triton and Bell's goofy

(01:20:31):
dad who both you know, like, I don't know, maybe
there is like some introspection on King Triton because he
faces a consequence, which is his daughter bails on him.
But all that to say, like, you don't get a
focus like this with mother's specifically very often and it's like,

(01:20:51):
I don't know, like i'd be interested to read how
people feel about it, because it is, like, I don't know,
having a deeply narcissistic person in your life from a
very young age is really traumatic and like function your
perception of the world. And I like that going back
to seeing Rapunzel's like back and forth of like elation
and deep guilt, like that really follows, attracts, affects you. Yeah,

(01:21:15):
like I thought that that was really um whatever. I mean,
it's a Disney movie. It's not subtle um, but yeah,
it's I'm kind of like the Mother gothel stuff is
tricky because I'm of two minds about it. On one end,
I do think that representing um or like just having
a storyline with a child growing up with a very narcissistic,

(01:21:40):
manipulative parent is interesting and I do totally understand why
a lot of people felt seen in that. And I
see a different side of it where it's like, is
this not just another evil older woman who is being
demonized for wanting to be young? And it's it gets
tricky because it's like you should be angry at her

(01:22:01):
for the way she is doing it. The fact that
she in the same way that like you almost think
of like the Queen and snow White to go way
back in Disney Princess Canad where kind of a similar
motivation where the Queen wants no way to die because
she's younger and more beautiful than her. Gosthel is trapping

(01:22:21):
Rapunzel and you know, manipulating her day after day because
she needs her to remain appearing younger and quote unquote
more beautiful prevent her from aging. She's like Rapunzel is
like the touch Everlasting Tree of the movie. So I
feel like the little wrench in this is that she

(01:22:42):
needs to manipulate another woman in order to remain young.
It becomes a rivalry between these two women. So so,
but I also feel like it's having an older woman
like making it seem it's it's almost like patriarchy the
guy kind of thing where it's like, oh, well, her
fixation on appearing young, that's an evil quality, and like

(01:23:06):
there's no introspection to like, well, what about the world
has made her feel that way? Because that's a very legitimate.
Certainly in two thousand ten and also now and probably
for a long time, women are going to be made
to feel bad about aging, and they will be viewed
as less valuable by society for visibly aging. Like that's

(01:23:29):
just the factiest fact there is, unfortunately, Right, So I
feel similarly conflicted because again, like I think on the podcast,
at least, I've been guilty of seeing a toxic mother
daughter relationship and just kind of writing it off as like, oh, well,

(01:23:49):
this is two women being pinned against each other and
I don't like it. But and there's a lot more
nuance to that, because there are a lot of toxic
relationship dynamics in real life that absolutely many, if not most,
people have experienced. They deserve to be explored as much
as positive relationships do on screen. But I just think

(01:24:12):
it's very pointed that this is the first one you're
seeing and the reason that it's toxic. I think like
that's where it gets a little muddled. It feels like this,
Like again, it's like a lot of this movie where
like some of it is exploring new territory and like
pushing forward in an interesting way, but even like the
attempt to do that in this movie is still like

(01:24:34):
hampered with these older tropes that I feel like gives
what should be something that is and I'm glad that
it has really worked and made a lot of people's
family dynamics feel validated and seen in a huge movie.
But it's just like, I feel like it takes away
from it a little bit by having it hampered by

(01:24:54):
those old tropes. Yeah, the main issue for me with
this particular aspect of the story is that we end
up with a pretty one dimensional female villain. I love
a female villain, especially if their villainy is contextualized, and
not that you necessarily need context for every single movie villain,
but because this one, it does seem to be playing

(01:25:15):
into tropes, it would be nice to have a better
understanding of why Gothel is the way she is, where
she's coming from, all this stuff, especially because like this
movie has. I think it just depends on the kind
of movie you're watching, where sometimes it's like we're not
getting context for any of these characters. It's an action movie.
We're giving the protagonist context and that's it, and that

(01:25:37):
at least that's like equal. But in this this movie
goes way out of its way to give you context
for Flynn, which is a subversion of this kind of movie.
But I think that the fact that they don't. And
I love villainy evil villains. I love that she gets stabbed,
like great, totally fine by me. I like, you know,
I love a villainy villain. Jigsaw is my husband, Game over,

(01:26:01):
Game over slam r I P. But I mean and
talk about a contextualized villain Jigsaw, who they got whole
movies about it. But but I just think that if
this movie is trying to change some of the standard
mechanics of a movie like this by giving the love
interest context, not extending that to the villain feels pointed,

(01:26:25):
especially when there's so much baggage around that type of
character that like total crone archetype totally it would it
would have been nice to get some some context because otherwise, yeah,
it just feels like a harmful trope that we've seen
again and again. But in keeping with the Disney tradition,

(01:26:48):
I did really like her song. Oh it's a good one.
I like the visuals too, is it's it's kind of
tied with I also really like Rapunza opening song. I
did like that Flynn Ryder did not get a song
because I didn't need it. I also, oh, first of all,
Brad Garrett and Ron Perlman. Wow, I mean, can I

(01:27:12):
just say wow? Also, this movie is so aggressively white
it is Um. Sorry, was another thing I was going
to say about one of the things that this movie
does not subvert as far as like Disney Princess Fairytale tropes.
The character design for Rapunzel very much. She is adhering

(01:27:33):
to classic Western beauty standards. She's thin, she's white, she's blonde.
The male characters she's young, young, eighteen years old. Why
are there so many movies about eighteen year olds? What
about the movies about people double that age? Thirty six?
My ageit Toronte story, erupted story. Um, there's plenty of

(01:27:54):
those two. Anyway. My point is that all the female
characters are very classically beautiful, and then men get to
be different shapes, different shapes, different sizes, etcetera, not different colors.
Everyone is white, which is, like, I mean, such an
animation trope that we've discussed a million times at this point,

(01:28:14):
where there's no reason that there couldn't be diversity in
this movie. For and I it always really like, it
always bugs me when the excuse for that is like, well,
this movie takes place in European countries, so in the
area it was supposed to take place in, there would
not have been anyone who wasn't white. And it's like, um,
he fights a horse with a sore, like with a pan,

(01:28:35):
we can suspend our disbelief. Clearly we are like open
to not adhering to the rules of reality. Like haven't
you ever seen Brandy Cinderella seven the best fantasy adaptation
of all time? Wow, that that movie really does I'm

(01:28:56):
due for a rewatch. I really love that movie so much.
But then I'm just like, can I cry all night again?
Oh my gosh, I just got like a really nice
feeling to think about Brandy Cinderella Tangled. Yeah, it is
not diverse in any way. The most radical statement it
makes on anything is that it's okay to have brown hair,

(01:29:17):
which is so weird. Um like kind of a shockingly
like nothing message, like you can have a shitty haircut,
sorry but I don't like Rapundl's haircut. You can have
a shitty haircut and brown hair, and you're like, well,
I've been doing that for you know, decades at this point,
So let's let's keep it. Let's keep it pushing, all right, there,

(01:29:42):
I don't know, yeah, there there's no body diversity. There's
no diversity period. And then also, like, I think it's
very I read some criticism around how mother Goffel is,
you know, like she's tall, or she's got dark hair,
she has darker feature yours. Then Rapunzel and it just
sort of seems like, oh, the palest blondes blue aside

(01:30:05):
woman is going to be the best. Um, So okay,
we wanted to add an insert here to address something
that we didn't address in the original episode. A lot
of listeners pointed this out. Honestly, I didn't pick up
on it. So thank you to our wonderful listeners for

(01:30:26):
performing us and just helping us be as intersectional in
our analysis as possible. And honestly, I mean, this is
a trope that we have discussed before. I just we
just did not pick up on it in this particular movie,
So right, we wanted to make sure that we were
acknowledging that once our listeners pointed it out, we're like,
oh yeah, I mean we want to sort of dig

(01:30:48):
into this trope a little more because, uh, it is
rife throughout animation, which is how has come up on
this show before. That is the trend in not just
Disney media, but children's media in general, and media on
the whole of using anti Semitic tropes in the villain

(01:31:10):
of the story, which is present in the character of
Mother Gothel in Tangled, and a listener sent us a
wonderful piece written by Tatum Shut from Hey Alma dot
com entitled why do so many Disney Villains look like me?
Tatum points out that Disney has a long history of

(01:31:31):
Jewish coding their villains, and it is very clear Entangled.
I'll pull a quote from this piece. Quote, Mother Goszel
is the cinematic foil for the predictably wide eyed, button
nosed Rapunzel Goszel, that magnificent mirror curial whoops, didn't do
that word right, uh, manipulator, so miserly with her food

(01:31:56):
and money, so separate from the other golden haired kingdom,
so distinctly mothered, she so happens to be animated with
the curly black hair and hook nosed stereotypical to Jews.
But beyond Gothel's suspicious phenotype, Tangled follows an eerily familiar
story blood libel and anti semitic canard that reverberates throughout

(01:32:17):
history accuses Jews of stealing Christian children to bake their
blood into Manza. I didn't even know that that like that,
this is like a spot in history and tropes that
I was not aware how deep this anti Semitic trope.
When same same Yeah, Tatum goes on to say it
was particularly prevalent in the Middle Ages, when it was

(01:32:38):
not uncommon for European Jews to be hunted down and
murdered whenever a child went missing. Jews stealing pretty Arian
children to sustain their dark magic unquote as the you know, perception,
yeah went And then another thing I just didn't know
was Tatum shut goes on to describe and kind of
explicitly connect the fact at uh, you know, Disney is

(01:33:02):
a horrible company that is not employing this trope out
of nowhere. It is cooked into the text of Grimm's
Fairy Tales, which are also wildly anti Semitic, um going
so far as they cite a lesser known, thank god,
uh story from Grimm's Fairy Tales called the Jew in

(01:33:22):
the Brambles. So the brothers Grimm, we're also horrifically anti
Semitic themselves, and Disney instead of subverting all of the
things that they do in this movie, which is how
this movie was marketed. Instead re employs this Like you
cannot overstate the harm of using a trope like this,

(01:33:43):
and we see it in media still and so yeah,
we really wanted to thank our listeners that sent this
our way. We did not pick up on it on
first viewing, and it is still an issue in animation.
I mean, we've talked quite a bit about how Disney
m habitually queer codes their villains, but this is also

(01:34:05):
an extremely worthy discussion and where sorry we missed it
on the first time. Thank you to everyone who sent it. Indeed,
especially again because you know, coding villains in a certain way,
queer coding them, quoting them as people of color, as
Disney has done in the past, um, quoting them as Jewish.
This consciously or subconsciously influences people's perceptions of already marginalized groups.

(01:34:27):
It reinforces harmful stereotypes, all kinds of very nasty things,
to the point where like we adult media critics did
not pick up on it, right, So um, and my
guest would be like, why is this happening in a movie?
From as Tatum shut points out, like, yes, it is
baked into the source material, but why is this but

(01:34:50):
like fling Ryder is not, you know, there's there's no
excuse for it. Honestly, my guests would be I mean,
Walt Disney was notoriously anti Semitic, and he probably had
a hand in coding early Disney villains as Jewish. And
since most animated Disney films follow the same formula, they
have a very distinct visual style. All the you know,

(01:35:13):
princesses are kind of molded after a very specific, you know,
Western beauty standard phenotype. All of the villains are modeled
after like another very specific design. Like earlier Disney movies
just reused animation from previous movies. It's just like the
same movie basically over and over over and over and over.

(01:35:36):
And yeah, it's like by the time Tangled came out,
what is the when is the last time this company
sat down and said, well, what have we harmed that
we need to scale back? So so thank you again,
and um yeah we wanted to include that um in
this insert, So thanks again everyone, And back to the episode.

(01:36:00):
He's got dark hair, she has darker features than Rapunzel,
and it just sort of seems like, Oh, the palest,
blondest bluicide woman is going to be the best. She
can get a chitty haircut later, but she you know,
she's got to have blonde hair for most of the movie.
And then Flynn Ryder bravely legs women with brown hair fine, like,

(01:36:21):
oh wow, what an ally? What a king? Just like,
so bring in jig Saw. I'm ready to die that
do do do? Al So, I don't think the Saw
episode has come out yet on the Matreon, but matrons
give it like four days. And then I think we

(01:36:41):
really like not to freak anyone out, but I think
that we had a really special month over in the Matreon,
our most chaotic episode to date, and then Saw. We're um, Caitlin,
we need to plan this offline, but that screening of
Saw is coming up, and they're still time for us
to get Jigsaw cosplay, right, do do do do? Do?

(01:37:07):
Do do do do do? I think that because it is
a four thirty screening, that there will be no one
costplaying except for us, and it will be like that
amazing tweet about the Baba Duck where everyone else is
just enjoying themselves and then we're addressed as to Jigsaw perfect.
I wouldn't have any other way anyway. Do you have

(01:37:29):
anything else you want to talk about? I wanted to
share one more quote about specifically this movie's preoccupation with
blonde hair. The link to this original story is unfortunately
no longer working, but it was quoted in a Miss
magazine piece from the time. The writer being quoted is

(01:37:52):
only credited as Renee Um, but Renee of Womanist Musings.
And she's talking about the you know I mean, and
this is technically Rapunzel canon I guess like not that
Rapunzel has to be canonically blonde or white or anything like.
So she writes quote as a black woman, I know

(01:38:13):
all too well how complicated the issue of hair can be.
Looking at the image of Tangled Rapunzel, I found that
I could not see beyond her long blond hair and
blue eyes. I believe that this will also become the
focal point of many girls of color. The standard of long,
flowing blonde hair as the epitome of femininity necessarily excludes
and challenges the idea that women of color are feminine

(01:38:35):
and desired, and therefore, while Disney is creating an image
of Rapunzel that we are accustomed to. Her rebirth in
a modern day context is problematic because her body represents
the celebration of white femininity. The fact that Tangled is
coming on the heels of the first African American Disney
princess is indeed problematic. It makes Princess Tiana seemed like
an impotent token, with Rapunzel appearing to reset the standard

(01:38:57):
of what princess means and even more precise Slee what
womanhood means unquote. Um again, I mean, we do have
a whole episode on the princess and the frog that
you can go back to. But a big issue that
a lot of people had but that movie, and that
we did as well, is that Disney's first black princess
spends most of the movie as a frog. And so

(01:39:19):
you while Tiana is their first black Disney princess, she
is also not celebrated to the extent that any other
Disney princess is. So I I yeah, I just wanted
to share that as well, because again, this is a
Disney fantasy movie. Rapunzel didn't need to be white and

(01:39:42):
blonde and skinny. It just didn't need to be that way.
I mean, so most people have hair that could become long.
That is so brave of you to say not everyone.
I don't want to be making sweeping generalizations. No, but
I mean, I I get. I think that truly. The
only absolute must with Rapunzel's character is she's got to

(01:40:05):
have long hair. The end of list, like kind of
end of qualifications. Everything else about her is malleable. The
only thing that is absolutely important to the character is
that she has long hair, and she's going to be
trapped in a tower. So there you go. She could
also be wearing a wig or extensions. We don't know.
We don't know. Can you imagine that if Nicole Kidman

(01:40:28):
played Rapunzel, what kind of wig she would be bringing
to set? Oh? My word, Oh my word. Okay, Well, anyways, Um,
that's all I have. I wanted to share that quote
and that I think. That's that's all I've got. So
shall we get to the matter at hand the test? Yes,

(01:40:48):
it does, but I think only between Rapunzel and Gossl Yes,
because this movie, I think again, in this overcorrection, like
the boys won't see a princess movie like Panic, This
movie is front loaded with a million extra male characters,
some of them I like, some of them that I don't.
We got too much Flynn. Flynn's animal has a huge

(01:41:12):
arc tournament to glue, don't care. We have the gallery
of rogues that all want to be musicians in my
and I kind of like them, but they are all
men and they didn't have to all be men. Nope,
why can't we have some some women rogues that are
give Punzela of a female friend. Let's get some envy
rogues in the mix. All these the only qualification for

(01:41:34):
a rogue, They're going to be rogue ish. Yeah, so
so you really only do get two women I think
talking in the whole movie, because Rapunzel's parents are not talking.
I think that her dad at one point goes yeah,
but the queen says none of things. Zippo. Damn as

(01:41:56):
far as our nipple scale, which is the golden standard.
Speaking of golden hair, I see you're not going to
have a reaction to that. Okay, Sorry, I was looking
at a picture of Zachary Levi. Is that embarrassing? Wow? Okay, sorry,

(01:42:19):
I did zone up for a second because I was
looking at Zacharily Levi's Wikipedia page. Okay, kill me. So no,
I was trying to it again. Wait, what did you?
Can you do it again? It's not worth repeating because
it's not even a good joke. I just said I
said it was like, and I also phrased it wrong.
I should have said, like speaking of golden hair. The
golden standard of movie analysis scales manipple scale. Meanwhile, I'm

(01:42:44):
being here looking at pictures of merne in on Wikipedia board,
I know, setting the clock back yet again. Um okay, yes,
I do agree. This is the golden standards. Yes, thank
you so much. The golden shio. Wow, what is that?
The golden ratio is a specific number. I forget what

(01:43:07):
it is, but it shows up a lot in nature,
like a snail's shell has the golden ratio. Oh yes,
and it's like and and and like conscious and ship.
That's fine, et cetera. Leaves shout out nature, you know. Anyway,
So the nipples scale zero to five nipples based on

(01:43:31):
looking at the movie through an intersectional feminist lens. I'm
tempted to just sort of and I know this feels
like cheating, but I kind of want to give it
like a split down the middle at two point five.
I do think it is pushing the needle forward by
a little bit as far as Disney Princess Fairytale movies go,

(01:43:54):
because it is supporting some of the harmful tropes we've
seen of the past, especially because when I think of
Damsel and Distress, my go to person that I think
of is Sleeping Beauty and Rapunzel. Yeah, and I didn't
even the only thing I knew about, like the Rapunzel story,
because I've never read the Grimm's Brothers fairy tale. Fuck

(01:44:18):
had to like look on Wikipedia to see what the
actual story was because the only thing I knew was
that there's a lady with long hair in a tower
and a prince climbs her hair to save her, like
very very classic Damsel in Distress narrative. So because this movie,
you know, takes that premise, but then gives her a

(01:44:39):
lot more agency, lets her save herself, lets her save Flynn.
I keep saying, whatever his name is, Flynn, probably except
it's Eugene. I forgot to mention that in the recap.
But his real name is Eugene. Who cares Flynn, She
saves him, she saves herself. She has far more agency
than your classic Damsel in distres us character. But there's

(01:45:02):
all these other things as we've discussed that, you know,
don't push the needle as far ahead as we would
have liked. But it is kind of like a stepping
stone movie. I feel yes paves the way for Mowanna,
for example. So with that in mind, I'll give it
two and a half nipples, and I'll give one to Rapunzel.
Love her Punzel. I think a lot of her Punzel.

(01:45:24):
I mean this, I love her character, but a lot
of it is just like, Wow, Mandy Moore, she's special.
I feel like she's even though she just was on
the most famous TV show for like ten years and
I never watched it. I feel like she's still underrated.
I love Mandy Moore. Yeah, I agree. Um, I'll give
one nipple two to Gothel because I feel like she

(01:45:48):
is potentially misunderstood. Slash. I love a female villain, Slash.
I wish she had been more contextualized. Slash. There was
just like things about her character that I didn't even
need to contextualize her in a way that made her
seem nicer. You had to give us something, right, although
maybe people will be like you don't it's a fairy tale.
Villains are just evil for the sake of being evil.

(01:46:09):
I don't know. I still it's just I feel complicated
and I feel like I'll still be My feelings about
this will like continue evolving as we examine similar relationship dynamics. Yes,
point is I would have liked more for for her character. Yes,
my half nipple, I will give to the Paula Tompkins,

(01:46:32):
little old guy who wears a paper and looks like
a little cupid with a bone arrow at the end
of the movie, shout out as always, friend Paul. He's
the best best rogue in the gallery as far as
I'm concerned. And when we had Brad Garrett in there,
okay there, Caitlin. I before I give you my rating,
I did just want to say I just sent you

(01:46:54):
the first look at one of the two dueling Pinocchio movies,
and it looks so bad. It looks so ugly. Gary.
They've they made him look way too much like the
Disney animated Pinocchio. It looks like a Robot Chicken sketch.
It literally looks like robot Chicken. And I mean, and
as a former employee, I love robot Chicken. But that's

(01:47:15):
like this, this has like a billion dollar budget. Why
does it look like that? Why does it look like that?
And for more on that, you can go to the
Matreon in November for our month that we've already roped
off to be the dueling Pinocchio's month, del Toro Versus Zamackis.
Do we already know who's going to win? Obviously, Robert Zameckis,

(01:47:37):
I don't know what something happened, something happened that that happened,
and he's something a which put a curse on him
and now he's really bad at his job. But um, anyways,
that didn't happen to Del Toro. All right, I'm going
to give it two and a half nipples as well.
I think that this movie pushes some boundaries an interesting ways.

(01:48:00):
I think that it like actually kind of regresses the
princess genre in certain ways by giving Flynn so much agency.
I think that you could accomplish the same thing by
having Rapunzel. She should cut off rapunzelan action hero, she
should cut off her own hair. But also it's like,
did Princess Fiona not learn like Karate well trapped in

(01:48:22):
the tower? Yes, Like, I think that there were ways
to even if you're going to have Flynn be a
bigger character. Okay, but like you know, there are ways
to make Rapunzel more of an action character. If you
worry that there are demographics that aren't going to be
interested in a princess movie where the princess is not
action e make the princess even more actionally. I think

(01:48:46):
that they went partially that way with Rapunzel, but they
would always fall back on like Flynn had to be
validating that she was good at combat. He had to
validate that a pan was a decent weapon like he
and he's the swashbuckler. Why couldn't have she been? She? Yeah,
she had all the time in the world to learn
swashbuck I mean, it's like, and we can go back
and forth on that because I was like, she couldn't

(01:49:07):
have technically, but like whatever, Princess Fiona did it. Okay,
not to pin two women's again against each other again
two women? Okay, this has to be over. Okay, but
I did like the movie. I think it's really sweet.
I would kill off the horse, so horse isn't getting
any nipples from me, that's for damn sure. Like how
your solution is kill the horse, not just like right

(01:49:30):
him out of the story. No, I think he should
fall off a cliff. In the first two minutes. He
does fall out of a very high up tree, but
somehow survives. But he's fine. I was watching some horses yesterday.
Don't ask as well. I was just spying on a
little ranch and I was watching some horses rough housing
and it was honestly very scary. I'm becoming a horse

(01:49:50):
girl and thinking about taking a horse lessons, so of
course I'm going to be observing horses. Wow. I did
see the movie Nope recently, so it's a big year
for horaces. I can't explain why, but something is going on.
Horses are back in a big way. Um. I saw
Nope for the second time yesterday and I was like,
exactly exactly, horses they're back. They're back, Um, but not

(01:50:14):
this one. This one should die. Um. I do not
share this feeling, but go on. I'm pro horse. I'm
anti Maximus having a whole ass arc when Rapunzel doesn't
even get to kill the villain. Hello, Mr, So okay,
one nipple to Rapunzel. I'm also going to give one
nipple to Gothel because she's a solid villain and I

(01:50:37):
think that there should have been a little more done
with her. If we're gonna flesh out trophy characters, let's
flesh them all out. Don't go halfway, And I'll give
my last half nipple to what was the chameleon's name, Pascal.
I loved Pascal, um, so I'm gonna give it to him.
And oh last thing. Obviously this movie not obviously, but

(01:51:01):
you could guess that this movie was written and directed
by men. Men, men, men, men, men, so many men. Um. However,
one of the there's two male directors, as there usually
is on animated movies, UM, but one of them, Byron Howard,
is an openly gay man. UM. He has been out

(01:51:22):
for many years, which is pretty huge in the entertainment
industry of that time in general, and also in animation
as well, because animation is double prejudiced in a lot
of ways. I don't know why, but I know it's true.
And he also would go on to direct Zootopia and
um Encanto, which we will be covering on this show

(01:51:45):
rather soon. UM. So you know there's that. Also Dan Fogelman,
who wrote the screenplay and I think had a hand
in UM casting. Mandy Moore later created This is Us,
which Maddie Moore is the leader. So without Tangled, we
wouldn't have that really famous show I've never watched. Wow,

(01:52:06):
the same makes you think in conclusion, this movie is
pretty good. I think if you're just watching it to
watch a movie, I really like it, Like it's a
fun rob of a movie. If you're watching it for
factal cast purposes, it's a real mixed bag. But as
a movie, I think it's really fun and I would
probably watch I think I will watch it again. Same. Yeah,

(01:52:28):
I concur so here we are ruining another movie. It's
kind of our thing. But also if you like it
and you just want to watch it for fun, that's
in the future. UM. So that's Tangled. We hope that
everyone who's been requesting it for over half a decade,

(01:52:48):
UM is happy. I hope you're happy. I've actually kind
of probably waited to do it because I feel like
we are we are, we now have better you're better equipped. Yeah.
I could see a twenty seventeen version of this episode that,
UM I would stand Yeah totally. So, as always, thank
you for listening. We really hope you enjoyed this. Um,

(01:53:11):
we've got an exciting let's say rogues gallery of movies
and guests coming up in the fall. We're sort of
laying out our fall schedule and it's exciting. You're gonna
be smiling, laughing, crying, learning, gasp. Also very soon on
the Matreon that saw episode that we kept hinting at,

(01:53:34):
So damn scoot on over there too, Patreon dot com
slash specktel Cat. I think we are kind of in
our golden era of the Matreon right now. Um, we're
really turning out some bangers I mean here, and they're good.
Golden hair, golden standard, Golden era boom. Look forward to

(01:53:55):
the Pinocchio Wars over there and all of your favorite
movies and past over here on the main feed. Thank
you so much for listening. You can catch us on
the worldwide web on Instagram and Twitter at Bechtel Cast. Um.
As Caitlin just said, you can join our Matreon five
bucks a month for to bonus episodes and a backlog

(01:54:18):
of over one hundred episodes. Hello, wow, impressive much Now
that's what I call content. Um that's five bucks a
month over at Patreon dot com slash Bechtel Cast. And
then of course you've got our merch at t public
dot com. Slash the Bechtel cast, where you can get

(01:54:38):
such classics as wet scabs or dry scaps. I mean
team Beetle Juice. Need we say more? And maybe and
and we I this fall, I am going to be
making some new merch designs for the holiday season. Not
holiday themes, but for you to purchase for the holiday season.
And so you know, the wheels are turning in income. Um,

(01:55:03):
that's my idea. Maybe think about that. Uh as far
as I've gotten um, but you know, mensa, we'll come
up with something. I have a master's degree. We we
we got this, mensa, master's degree. It's gonna it's gonna
come together. Um, okay, A game over, you know, Oh

(01:55:24):
my gosh, okay, not that, not that Tangled isn't a
great movie, But no movie ends better than Saw One
Game Over, Sam, Bye bye bye

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