The Da Vinci Code

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the beck Del Cast, the questions asked if movies
have women in um, are all their discussions just boyfriends
and husbands or do they have individualism the patriarchy? Zef
invest start changing it with the Bechdel Cast. Hello, Becktel
Cast listeners, It's me Kitlin Toronto and me Jamie Loftus

(00:21):
and we're back for yet another episode of the Bechdel Cast.
But wait, it's a little different today. Oh my gosh,
we're unlocking one of our Patreon a k a. Matreon episodes. Gasp.
I know we do it every so often, and this
week we're doing it for a special little occasion. Tell

(00:42):
me more, Okay, I will um So. I have a
new solo series coming out. It's one of my one
of Jamie's a Little investigations. It does not have a
ton to do with the subject matter of today's movie,
which is the Da Vinci Code, which spoiler alert is Apple.

(01:05):
But in any case, uh no, we're we're unlocking an
episode today because it's an episode about kind of religious
conspiracies and esoteric bizarre ship and uh that is what
my new show is about. It it's out starting now.
It will be releasing episodes every single Monday. It's called

(01:29):
Ghost Church, and what it is is, UM, it's kind
of half investigation, half history of a fringe religion in UM.
That's it's across the West called Spiritualism. And so what
the show is about is it's kind of two tracks.
The first is the history of Spiritualism, which is really

(01:51):
really fascinating. It's it kind of came up in the
mid eighteen hundreds, beginning with two young girls. Wow, girl,
us go off just like us, Well if we were
eleven and fourteen, Um, they're y are we are? We
have to get permission slips to record this today. UM.

(02:14):
But yeah, it kind of UM on windside tracks their story.
Their names are Maggie and Kate Fox, and they kind
of um accidentally started a religion that is built around
the concept of being able to communicate with spirit or
ghosts and communicating with the dead. Um, which is just
like a very roller coastery kind of story that I

(02:35):
couldn't possibly summarize for you here and I won't because
you gotta go listen to that damn show. And then
on the other end, because the religion is UM still
very much around, mostly in h small camps throughout the country,
too in particular, and I spent a week at one
of them, uh in Florida, in the Orlando area. I

(02:56):
hung out with a bunch of mediums all week to
learn more about what the religion looks like now, UM
kind of how a how a fringe religion develops over time, UM,
what brings people to it? And uh watching people communicate
with the dead in real time? It was. It was
a weird one. It was an adventure. Um. And so

(03:20):
I won't I won't spoil anything else from there. If
you're into spiritual stuff, I would recommend you check it out.
If you're not into spiritual stuff, I would also recommend
you check it out because I'm not trying to really
sway anyone one way or another. It's it's more just
a very bizarrow journey. And I had a lot of

(03:40):
fun putting it together. It's a show for everyone. It's
for everyone. You think we can talk to ghosts, well
you better check it out. You don't think we can
talk to ghosts, Well, there's plenty of people on the
show who feel exactly that way. Me. I don't fucking know.
It's in. The more I talk to people, the less
I know. Wow, I'm sure, there's a folk song about that,
so where, but that is true. I it's such a

(04:03):
it's such a fascinating topic. Everyone feels strongly one way
or another. Um, and I'm just kind of floating in
the goo in the middle, uh, you know, trying to
trying to not get yelled at by mediums in Florida,
which isn't too hard. But you'll have to listen to
the show in any case. That is what we are

(04:25):
celebrating on the show today. We'll have another episode coming
up that will also sort of be addressing this kind
of stuff. The Da Vinci code today. This is a
little more of like on the like weird religion side
of stuff. And what I will say for spiritualism is
it is nowhere near as fucked up as Christianity. So

(04:50):
blockl in because yeah, we recorded this. When did this
come out? This came out I believe sometime on the
Matreon last year, Yes, March twenty one. I believe in
that ballpark and so this If you're not a Matreon subscriber,
this is also a reminder that if you are running
thinn On episodes on our main free feed, we do

(05:14):
to bonus episodes a month with just Caitlin and myself
most of the time. Over on our patreon aka Matreon,
there's over a hundred episodes there. This is just one
of them. We keep it loose, do a lot of
do a lot of bits. I'm sure I shout the
Da Vinci code as Apple no less than seven thousand
times in this episode conservatively. Yeah. So yeah, enjoy it

(05:36):
and we will be linking to the patreon ak matreon
if you're interested in joining that community. It's such a blast.
D But first, before we get into it, we over
in the Matreon, we assume that everyone knows what the
Battel Test is and what the show is, because you know,

(05:58):
you're you're there, you're you're part, you're in the Inn crew,
you know. So we don't waste time being like, well,
here's who we are, here's what the Bechdel Test is.
I love we're making fun of what we're about to do.
Oh like, but but that's said, even though Caitlin thinks
it's ridiculous, apparently we are going to do it right now.

(06:21):
We are going to tell you that this is our show,
The Bechtel Cast, in which we examine movies through an
intersectional feminist lens. Using the Bechtel test simply is a
jumping off point. Now. The Bechdel Test, of course, is
a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechtel, sometimes
called the Bechtel Wallace Test, where by our version because

(06:44):
there are many renditions of the test, but the one
that we currently use requires that two characters of a
marginalized gender have names, speak to each other about something
other than a may on, and ideally that conversation is
narratively meaningful. Yes, so, if you've seen the Da Vinci Code,

(07:09):
don't hold your breath. But you know, if you're a
Tom Hanks fan, also, don't hold your breath. It's not
his best and with with no further ado, without further
with no without without without much further ado. Hello, oh
my god, without further ado, please enjoy the unlocked Da

(07:34):
Vinci Code. It's Apple Cast. Welcome back, matrons. Wow. Is
this the main event? This is what this entire podcast
has been leading up to. He I am really excited

(07:55):
in a way. This movie is all my feeavorite parts
of I Frankenstein mixed with all my favorite parts from
National Treasure. But when all of the fun just sucked
out through a straw. It's shocking. Uh huh. This is

(08:18):
a very similar premise, but none of my favorite parts.
It's it's wild that a movie is toxic as Indiana
Jones and The Last Crusade is a far more enjoyable
movie to watch for me, at least than this suck fest.
You didn't have fun watching The Da Vinci Cup The

(08:40):
Da Vinci I honestly, it was like such a journey.
It was such a right because it was like I
started out being like, oh, yeah, this movie is just
people saying words. This could be fun, right, because there's
that whole oh my god, the moment where I was like,
wait a second, what if this movie fucking rocks? Is
when Tom Hanks is staring at the Mona Lisa and

(09:03):
then he just goes moons, sermons, charms, demons, sermons, monks, ranks, rocks,
And I was like, oh, this movie is nonsense. I'm
gonna love it. But then it gets but then it
gets really boring for like an hour and a half,
and then it gets funny again at the end. Like
it starts funny and then it's boring for a long time,
and then it gets funny again at the very end

(09:25):
where he's like, Okay, first of all, Matrons, if you
were wondering if you went into the da Vinci Code
thinking I don't know, I was like, did not in
spite of the fact that I definitely like interacted with
this property at it in its heyday, I did not
remember what the da Vinci code was, and I was

(09:47):
knocked on my do you know have you been watching
one division? I have not at this time. Here's a
scene where a character is sent through like fort walls
in a row, and that's how I felt when I
found out that the da Vinci code is Apple, and
I have I have a whole theory to go with. Okay, Caitlin,

(10:12):
this episode is going to be chaos, by the way,
of course, So the da Vinci code is Apple. That's
I didn't. I'm the fact that that's the funniest thing
I've ever heard in my entire life is you've been
watching this movie for six hours and then they're like, oh,
the da Vinci code was literally Apple, not Apple in Latin,

(10:34):
not Apple in and just Apple. So if you were
reading the book, which I definitely I read it when
I was like eleven maybe, and I was like, whoa
I really understand this. I did it, but you have
to imagine once by the time you it's just kind
of like aggressively mean towards the reader because you you

(10:55):
have to probably find out that the da Vinci code
is Apple on page like five hundred, and you're like,
I went all this way for this. The da Vinci
code is Apple. Here's my theory. Yes, please, and keep
in mind neither of us have reread the book and
we're not going to. I thought about it, but guess what,

(11:16):
for some reason on the library app every copy is
checked out. WHOA, it's still I genuinely was thinking about, like, oh,
maybe I'll get like the audio book and like funk
around a little. It could be fun. It's it's a
waiting list around the corner to get. Even in the year,
people are still reading the da Vinci Code. It's shocking.

(11:38):
So I don't know. I'm sure stuff is different in
the book. If you're yelling at someone about what happens
in the Da Vinci Code book versus the movie, you
have to move on, right. But my theory is because
in the movie, it's one of the funniest scenes in
the movie because it's Ian McKellen is literally like the spy,

(12:00):
like it's full Star Wars. He's the spy, Audrey. I'm
just gonna call her Omily the whole episode, Sorry, Omily.
It doesn't know what the da Vinci code is because
she doesn't know anything the whole movie. And then Tom
Hanks is like, I know what the da Vinci code is,
and you're like, huh, what how? And then he's like

(12:22):
standing and he all of a sudden sees the solar system.
It reminds me of that meme where a bunch of
math problems happened in front of that lady's face. Um,
it's that, but it's supposed to be really serious. And
then he smashes the cryptex he's he figures out. So
here's my theory. The da Vinci code was not Apple.

(12:44):
We never found he we never saw him put the
code into the crypt He broke it and he smashed it,
and then he the da Vinci code was not Apple,
it was something else. It was I like how he
just said it so matter of factly, and were so
conditioned to trust, like you know, men with bad haircuts,

(13:05):
and also like you know professors, right, But there's there
was no proof that the DaVinci code was Apple, and
that's and honestly I don't think that da Vinci was,
which is weird that what DaVinci my theory is Tom
Haks was dead wrong and we'll never know. Well never
know because the movie too much. I would argue, cuts

(13:30):
in two flashbacks that look like absolute hell. They look
like should they look like it's like a really but
you can tell it's expensive too, But it looks like
it was edited in like Windows movie maker. Yeah, they
put some weird filter over the flashbacks to like let
the audience know, don't like, don't be confused, this didn't happen. Now,

(13:51):
this happened before, but like they look like ship but
we didn't. There's just so many scenes. There will be
a fly back to like to clue the audience in, oh,
you weren't sure how this came to be. Here's a
flashback to fill in the gaps, but it doesn't do that.
With Robert Langdon putting in Apple into the cryptex, so yeah,

(14:12):
he just sees the solar system and he's like, it's Apple. Yeah,
I maybe in the book, it's like definitively he puts
it into the cryptex. The cryptex goes it opens in
the movie. I'm going to say, canonically, there's no way
it was Apple. That is a ridiculous answer. Everything else

(14:33):
happened in this movie and fucking Latin and anagrams that
the Da Vinci code was not Apple. A fourth grader
could figure that out. But that's kind of part of
the point. That's part of the appeal of the Da
Vinci Code is it just like makes you feel really smart,
but then you're like, wait a second, I didn't understand
a word of that, and I'm pretty sure that it's
all made up. But it's good. I kind of like

(14:54):
this was a kind of an interesting case study for like,
I mean, it's not an easy thing to do, and
I would argue this movie fails it doing it by
trying to like take something super complex that requires this
vast knowledge base and make it easy to understand for
like the widest audience possible. Like I can't think of

(15:17):
an example of it of that going well, because when
the people they it's like this movie stops every two
seconds to explain to you something that happened three thousand
years ago, and then you're like huh, and then they're like,
it's fine, the da Vinci Code is Apple. Like they
they make it sound really hard, but the solutions are
like not that hard and they kind of and they

(15:38):
like make basically no sense. But those feels smart because
you like Ian McKellan read forty five Wikipedia articles at
you about how he's a male feminist. This movie is
I was cracking up. I was this the beginning and
end of this movie. It just really puts you in
a really specific time and plays because we really were

(16:01):
just like sitting in our seats in two thousand and six,
it's the fucking Bush administration and we're like, the da
Vinci Code is Apple? That like I would, you couldn't
pay me to go back there. What's going on? What
is your relationship with the da Vinci Code, The book,

(16:21):
the movie, Dan Brown's Ubra in general, Robert Langdon, first
of all, Sunny loves Robert lancoln. Of course, Sonny the
Dog loves Robert Lee like Robert Langdon, literal genius. Robert
Langdon should be in the m c U. That's his
whole thing. Um. He thinks that Robert Langdon could really

(16:44):
make a killing in the NCU. My my history with
the da Vinci Code is that I don't know. I
mean I think that I was like just old enough
to participate, and I was really excited because the book
came out in two thousand three, so I was like young,
but like I could read. I could read, so I

(17:04):
thought I could understand everything, so I was really excited.
I remember that there was like a raggedy copy of
the Da Vinci Code that made its way across my
entire family throughout probably two thousand four, two thousand five
or something. I remember I read the whole thing really fast.
I read most of it in like a bathtub over

(17:26):
the course of eight hours, and then I got sick
because I don't sit in a bath for eight hours.
That's gross. But I did, and I just remember feeling
really cool that I read the book, and I remember
low keeping like I didn't catch a word of it,
but I read every word and that's what counts. And

(17:48):
then I did see the movie. But by that point,
I think, even like for because I was like twelve
or thirteen when the movie came out, and even by then,
I think I was like I already did it know.
I was like that, that's so whatever, like sixth grade
or what. Um. But then I I don't know, and
I also I learned because I haven't revisited it since that,

(18:11):
I retained like nothing. All I remembered going in was
Fibonacci numbers. I just remember the phrase. I don't remember
what it meant, but I remember Fibonacci numbers. But but
it was interesting watching the movie because it was like
plot points were slowly coming back to me, like it
was just a long forgotten dream, like as I was like, oh,

(18:34):
because like when Ian McKellan came on screen, I'm like,
there's something going on with this guy, but I don't
remember what. And then he's like, I'm the spy, and
You're like, right, he was a spy. I forget. Yeah,
So that's that's my history. What about yours? Well, I
too read the book in probably two thousand three. I

(18:58):
was nearing the end of high school at that point,
and I did you understand it? Yes, I was old
enough to Yeah, I understood the duvincicode. And I'll be honest,
you know this is this is a property that is
very easy and popular to dunk on now. But if

(19:22):
I'm being perfectly honest with myself and others, I fucking
loved this book. When I first read it as a
sighting at the time, I remember like the trajectory of
it too, so basically like it got published, word caught
on that it was really fun and really good. So
I I read it. All my high school friends read it.

(19:42):
We were like, this is the best book I've ever read.
Then I read Angels and Demons and I and I
was like, because it's like, this type of story is
like very up my alley in terms of just like
an adventure quest, like let's follow clue news and it
was like again reminiscent of Indiana Jones. And I was like, cool, fun, fun.

(20:05):
And then I also just appreciate as a lifelong devout atheist,
I appreciate anything that like criticizes and comments on Christianity.
So I just felt very cool and I was like, oh,
this is like anyway, it was exciting, So I read
the book rather those two books. I have not read Inferno,

(20:27):
but there's apparently a fourth one also Origin I did.
I remember reading Angels and Demons and then being like, wow,
it's so cool to know what Robert Langdon was doing
before the Da Vinci Code. Didn't they make that into
a movie too, Yes, And So Inferno is also a
movie that came out in You're lying, I am telling

(20:50):
the Tom Tom Hanks is in it, Yes, as is
I think it's Zoe Deschanelle. But I truly only looked
at one still image of the movie and I don't
know if that's who it is or not. That's so
bold because it's like who was who cares? So anyway,
So I had read those books, and by the time

(21:11):
the movie came out, I was in college and I
went to go see it in theaters. I remember, like
my enthusiasm for the books had definitely waned by that point,
but I was excited enough that I still like went
to go see the movie opening night, and then the
movie was such a turd that I was like, oh,

(21:33):
you hated it. Yeah, I was like, this is bad,
like I could like, I still probably enjoyed myself, and
like because I was. I went with friends and we
were like we a night out on the town. But um,
I knew then that the like the dialogue especially was
just like clunky. I hated Tom Hanks as Robert Langdon.

(21:56):
I don't know who I thought Robert Langdon should have
been played by, but definitely not Tom Hanks. I was
picturing someone a little more young. I don't know, I
just didn't I forget how old Robert Linkedon was. But
I like the book. I don't know if the book
wants you to kind of have a crush on him,
but like, as an eleven year old, I'm like, Wow,

(22:18):
he's so cool and so smart. Like you picture kind
of like a movie. Maybe Tom Hanks ten years before
this movie came up, maybe with a different haircut, with
a different His haircut is so distracting that I like,
I don't even know what the movie is about. I
just was looking at this terrible haircut the entire time.
Do you remember, um, do you remember if in the

(22:40):
book the Da Vinci Could is there a romance in
the book or is it also scaled back? Because I
was like, are they scaling it back in the movie
because the age gap is so icky? Or like, what's
going on? If I'm remembering correctly, and this is again
strictly from my memory bank, so I might be wrong

(23:01):
about this, but there is no romance in the book
between Sophie and Robert Langdon in the Da Vinci Code. However,
in the movie, I feel like they want you to
want it, but they don't want it. But I think
there is a like romance and like I think even
Robert Langdon has sex with like the female lead of

(23:24):
the Book of Angels and Demons. I've not seen the
movie Angels and Demons. I don't know if they include
that or not, or if even I'm remembering this correctly,
but I remember being like, oh, wow, Robert Langdon Fox
because he like Fox the Lady. Maybe that's why I
was thrown by it being like Woody, because that would

(23:45):
have been like, I'm like, why is Woody playing like
this character I was told was like this kind of
like low key intellectual sex god, Like that's not what
he's serving me in this movie. And I feel like, okay,
of the I think that you are, like you are
supposed to think that you want them to kiss at
the end, and then they don't write like that seemed

(24:06):
was so it was so icky because it was like
even in two thousand six, nobody wants that, Like nobody
wanted Woody to kiss Emily, Like no, no, no, that's gross.
But there's like there's that like there's like a few
moments where I'm like, I think they want me to
want this to happen, where like when Robert Langton goes,

(24:29):
I never knew a girl who knew that much, and
I'm like, no, gross, get away from her. And then
that part at the end where they like hug for
a weird amount of time and then he kisses her
forehead and you're like, creepy uncle, energy don't like it? Uh,

(24:49):
well should we? I guess we should just get into it.
Also happy Alfred Molina Month on the Matreon Alfred March,
Lena and Melina March Welcome he's playing? Is his character Italian? What?
What is his character? I think his character is from Spain,
but I oh, I am not certain. Wow, that would
actually be Alpha Molena canon, because yeah, he he is

(25:13):
speaking well, speaking Latin a lot of the time. But
he's also I believe, speaking in Spanish to Silas on
different occasions. Yes, oh yes he is. But I also
I cannot detect a Spanish accent from an Italian accent
as um an uncultured American. So I don't really know.

(25:34):
Here's how here's how simple my my understanding of the
Catholic churches. I was like, oh, well, the pope lives
in Italy, so he's Italian. I mean that that I
see your logic. I'm probably wrong, but yeah, I think
he's from Spain. Question Mark, Wait, what is your like? Okay,

(25:57):
I know that you're an atheist now, but where you
raised cass Flick know, I was, I was raised in atheists.
You were rased, okay, because I was like baptized Catholic,
but then we immediately went to like a different flavor
of Christianity. And then when I was eleven, my mom
was like, Land, this is boring and toxic. So my

(26:18):
like most of my family is Catholic because they're from
Massachusetts and it's like the law, and but I feel like, yeah,
I only I only understand. I don't understand the ins
and outs of Catholicism like canonically, I just understand the
negative traits it brings out in New England families. Sure. Yeah,

(26:40):
I know very little about the mythology, if you will,
of Christianity, Like I know the main Bible stories that
most people know, but beyond that, I know very little.
I mean, I kind of appreciate that this movie does,
like you're you don't need to know that much to
watch this movie. They're going to tell you everything. They're

(27:02):
like this is Jesus and you're like, thank I'm with you.
And then then literally the most iconic movie speech. I
don't know why it's not on an an FHI list,
Moon Sermons, Charms, Damon Sermons, Monks, Rank Rocks, Madonna of
the Rocks, Vinci And that's how this like, this is genius.

(27:25):
This is genius dialogue. The dialogue sucks so bad and
it's delivery is terrible. If what a mess. I don't
know what it is like because Ron Howard has made
very I like Ron Howard. I yeah, I mean I
was like, I don't think he's a bad but this

(27:46):
is like, oh boy, the way people are talking to
each other, it's like so it just sounds like they're
not even in the same room. Like the conversations feel
so like this and I don't know what it is.
I've never in my life seen such expository dialogue. In
every single line of dialogue, it's just like, I mean,

(28:07):
I I am very pro like, don't talk down to
your audience, but if you want this to be like,
this is just like a really difficult it's a it's
too dense too. I feel like fit into like a
fun movie like it's there's just too much you have
to you have to stop and explain things every two seconds,
and then that's just most of the movie, right, Yeah,

(28:30):
they tried. The da Vinci code was literally Apple, so
it turns out none of it mattered. I can't get
over it. I feel interesting that you're you're like isolating
the da Vinci code into that one particular code that
you punched into the cryptext. To me, the da Vinci
code is like it's a feeling, it's a sensation, it's
the whole experience. It's the roller coaster ride that is

(28:53):
the whole movie. Oh I thought it was silly me.
I thought it was the code you put into the
Da Vinci thing. You fool there. I don't know what
or the da Vinci code. The da Vinci code was
either Apple or women unclear to me. What I can't

(29:14):
wait to talk about this movie is so male feminist.
Like it's like we were talking about this in our
last episode of Just Like the Most Like it's like
when a guy's like, oh, I'm I'm such a male
feminist and then they just explained what feminism is to
you for two and a half hours, and then you're

(29:35):
like wait, I haven't talked yet, and he's like, yeah,
I respect you so much. I don't even want to
know a thing about you. Like I just it's so
exhausting the fact that there are so many opportunities to
bring Sophie into the narrative and bring her expertise into
the narrative constantly, and she's literally a cryptologist, not that

(29:57):
you'd know based on how many could she solves, like,
and then just Ian McKellan shows up. He's like, oh,
actually I know everything that it would be way more
interesting if the if the only woman in the story knew.
But let's just tell her. Let's just tell her what's
going on. And then she goes, wait, that can't be,

(30:18):
Like that's everything. She says, wait, that can't be, and
it's like you're Jesus's niece. Get used to it, lady there.
And then she's like, well, I don't know any of
this stuff because I hate history. And then Tom Hanks,
you hate history? What do you mean? No one hates history.
They hate their own histories. And it's just like Robert Lincton,

(30:40):
what shut up? That's a really annoying thing for Robert
Lindon to say, But also I would argue, that's a
really like bizarre thing for so, like, who's like I
hate history? Like that is such a broad concept to hate,
like you've hated everything that's ever happened. Ever, Like what
do you mean? What do you mean when you say

(31:00):
that it's like I hate history, I hate everything that's
ever happened? Is I just hate it? Like, well, I
don't know what to tell you. Oh my god, I'm
just laughing, laughing, laughing this whole movie. It makes no sense. Also,
the character names are so silly teeming a ringa Rosa.

(31:22):
You're just like, I'm sure it's all I'm like, maybe
it means, oh, here's something fun. Uh there? This was okay.
So when I was like younger, like probably more like
high school, I used to love when like famous writers
would give information on like this is my writing routine

(31:43):
and like this is how I write. And I used
to like look up whatever. I would love stories like that.
And Dan Brown has done this several times. I guess
he most recently did it a couple of years ago.
I'm thinking of something from like fifteen years ago. But
he like discussed his writing routine and it's like so

(32:04):
fucked up. Like he wakes up. It sounds like do
you remember when like Mark, what's his name, the evil
one from Ted Mark Wahlberg Wallberg, Mark Wallberg released his
like workout routine. He's like, I wake up at three

(32:25):
am and scream, like it's like scary. Dan Brown is
like that, but for writing shitty books about Robert Langton.
Like he's he wakes up at four am and drinks
like a spinach milkshake and then he writes for like
fifteen hours, and then he's like then I whatever, like

(32:46):
give my son a encouraging pat on the back and
go right to bed. And I was like, he sounds
he sounds like the worst. He just sounds like he's horrible.
Oh well, he has a masterclass. We should watch it.
We should. He just seems like such a like snobby jerk.
I think he thinks I mean, he probably thinks he's

(33:07):
Robert langdon I bet? Yeah? Well shall we? I need
to get some wine. Yeah, go get someone fills um
fill your chelice and by that I mean your womb
like wine and drink your womb wine out of your vagina,
because that's what this movie is about. Because woman is mother. Okay, okay,

(33:39):
I'm here, all right, welcome back. I'm gonna do the recap.
I am going to skip over a lot of details
because there are just too many things, and I'm gonna
flash back and say exactly what happened. And he's like,
it has to do with Constantine. Actually Constantine was a pagan,

(33:59):
and I'm just shut up, shut up, I very. It's like,
I feel like it speaks to this movie's exhausting nature
that I never want Ian McKellen to shut up, but
in this movie, I really wanted him to shut up constantly.
It's like, stop talking, but not as much as I

(34:20):
wanted Tom Hanks to shut up. I know. It's really
taking like the icons that are pretty like culturally untouchable
at the time of this recording and makes you just
like absolutely despise hearing their voice. It's remarkable. So yeah,
I skip over a lot of things in the recap,

(34:42):
so it might not make any sense, but I did
my best. So the movie opens in the Louvery. Oh
my god. The closing shot of this movie at the
loube speak. Okay, this movie much like Ralph Freaks the Internet,
except this movie is horrible and it's I would say

(35:04):
that this movie is like almost camp. It's so bad,
Like this movie ends forty five different times, but the
final ending is the funniest one where Robert Liked runs
back to the louver and like she feels on the
louver like it's oh boy, it's remarkable. Perfect. Okay, So

(35:27):
we're in the louver and there's a monk named Silas
played by Paul Bettany, and he is trying to get
some information from uh, this man who I don't know
if he's a curator there, I don't know. He's in
the louver and the link gets the information and then
shoots sonya. Let me cut to Robert Langdon played by

(35:50):
Tom Hanks, of course, and he is a professor of
religious symbology giving a presentation in Paris, and then he
is approached by the French FBI and they want to
talk to Langdon French b I, if you will um,
the French Bureau of Investigations. They want to talk to

(36:12):
Langdon about the murder that we just saw take place.
Then we cut back to Silas, the monk. He is
talking on the phone with someone who he calls teacher,
and guess who else is talking on the phone in
a different scene with the teacher is Alfred Molina, and

(36:34):
he's doing an accent, and we don't know what the
accent is. I love to see him in his Catholic hat.
It's what I mean. He feels like he's playing a
very similar character to me. I mean, we know him
as a great villain. He plays the hell out of

(36:54):
a villain. He's playing a very similar villain to me
as a character he plays in Chakola I I totally agree,
except with none of the like lovable. I'm like, what
if there just floating some ideas for our reboot of
the Da Vinci Code. Uh, what if there were a
a cake scene? Where is the cake scene in the

(37:17):
Vinci Where is the scene where this Bishop of Opus
day is refusing to indulge in any sort of sweets
or chocolates until he hits a breaking point in which
he just goes balls to the wall, eating every bit
of chocolate in sight to the point where he's basically
having sex with chocolate. Why isn't that scene in the

(37:40):
Da Vinci Code? What's going on? There are a few
like really iconically good shots of Alfred Bolina. The first
was like Paul Betny wakes up and Alfred Bolina is
just like standing over him, and I was like, this
is for me ideal, Like I wish I were Paul
Bettany in the scene. Um I. Then there's the clip

(38:01):
that you sent me of like launching out of a car,
Like it's so good, it's really that is the literally
the best part of the movie because there's this really
like epic music playing and it's like one of the
few times in the movie where like interesting camera work
is actually happening. And like I'm not normally a big
snob about like the mechanics of filmmaking in terms of

(38:22):
like cinematography and editing and stuff like that, but like
this movie does everything so poorly that you can't help
but notice it. But like there is one moment where
I'm like, look at this camera work where the camera's
kind of like it's tracking with one person and then
it kind of shifts over to focus on Alt from
Lena getting out of a car and then he like
sees something and then starts sprinting out of frame and

(38:43):
it's just like this beautiful fluid movement and h it's
a scene from a better movie. I was like, that
was a singular gorgeous shot. Indeed, I wish I knew.
I wish I didn't know what movie it was in.
Uh okay. So Alfred Molina plays Bishop Aaron Garossa, who

(39:05):
is a religious figure of Opus Day, a sect of
Catholicism that seems, according to this movie, pretty scary, and
he is like Silas's mentor. So meanwhile, Langdon is taken
to the Louver and Captain Fash a k genre no,

(39:27):
you're literally like Fash And then I was like, I
don't know, and then I just kept watching because that's
how you that's the only way you can watch the
Da Vincico this to be like hmmm, maybe that's something,
and then you're like, well, I don't know. Okay, something
else is happening now. Now we're talking about Constantine and
the Holy Wars. Yeah, so Captain Fash is Genrino and

(39:52):
he is. He's there as well as Sophie. It's very French,
and it's they literally cast Emily, so we're like, okay,
she is for French. So it's yeah, Audrey Tattoo or
however you say any name in French. And I love her.

(40:13):
I wish she had been given a single thing to
do in this entire movie. Truly, I hope she made
so much money. That's it would give me peace to
know that Audrey Tattoo made a lot of money. But
I have a feeling that she probably made much less
money than literally every man on screen. That's probably true,
and that's upsetting. Her character is a cryptologist for the
French police, and she's like, hey, Robert, they think the

(40:38):
police think that you killed sna Also, by the way,
he was my grandfather and as he was dying, he
left all of these clues, so you and I have
to work together to solve them. Because basically Sania had
put himself in the position of the Vitruvian man. And
then he also wrote a bunch of words on the

(40:59):
floor an invisible ink, which read how long was this
man dying? Like this? I had a funny because I
forgot what the because I remember, like as a kid,
being like whoa the like long ass codes where he's
just stumbling around the loop like writing poems and ship
and but I was I couldn't remember, and so I
was like, what if it was what if he just

(41:19):
smeared some pig out in bluff like that would be
a more interesting choice to be than whatever the funk
he did, thoughts something to consider for our reboot. Yeah,
like could be a fun iconic message relieve. Also, I

(41:40):
forget who someone it might have been a friend of
the show, Matt Rogers, but like someone recently tweeted like
what what a like weak endorsement that was on the
part of Charlotte and her web, like like, who's this guy?
I don't know, some pig. He is some pig And
everyone was like, wow, he must be really special and
you're like, well, that's not what she said. Oh goodness,

(42:04):
listen to women and what they weave in their web. Okay,
So um Sonia had written O draconian devil, oh lame
st and Langdon figures out that these words are an
anagram and shout out to anagrams and my very anagrammable name,

(42:26):
please and thank you. Um that anagrams to Leonardo da
Vinci the Mona Lisa, and then we're like, wow, Da
Vinci code alert it's starting. So they go over to
the Mona Lisa and there's another clue there, and that
leads to another clue and then another and it's like
National Treasure all over again. It's yeah, National Treasure. If

(42:48):
fept way longer and worse, way less fun and there's
no where is my Bartinary Bartha insight, I feel like
this movie really would benefit from a Bartha type chater,
like because you have the similar set, because whatever in
the National in the Da Vinci National Treasure Frankenstein Code,

(43:09):
it's like you have it's kind of like a sacred,
sacred triptych right, Like you have your like agro hero
in Nicolas Cage. You have a woman who will not
be allowed to do anything but is there in the
form of Abigail. And then you have a little cartoon
squirrel guy in the form of Justin Bartha. And I

(43:29):
feel like the da Vinci Code could really have used
the Justin Bartha character to keep us, to keep us
having some fun in a movie that is really not
that fun to watch. Right, Yeah, we need some kind
of comic relief for squirrel relief, for Bartha relief. It's
not like Justin Bartha wasn't available, you know, was his

(43:52):
availability is open? Okay? So then they pick up the
flur de Leys, which is this like key like object
as they're going around the louver discovering clues. But then
Langdon and Sophie have to run because the cops are
chasing them, and while they're on the run, Langdon tells

(44:13):
Sophie about the Priory of Ssion, which is a secret
society that protects a secret treasure, the Holy Grail. Um. So,
now I guess the story is about finding the Holy Grail, right,
which I was like, I think, oh right, that was
another thing. I was like, oh right, that's what the
Da Vinci code was looking for. Question mark. Yes. So meanwhile,

(44:42):
Silas has followed the clue that Son had given him,
but it turns out to be a decoy and he
is so mad that he murders a nun about it.
He really is on a mission from God, and that
mission is to kill as many nuns as he possibly can,
because he kills a lot of one. Yeah. So then

(45:03):
we cut back to Langdon and Sophie. They take the
flur dey key thing to this like very fancy bank,
I guess where in a safety deposit box there is
a smaller wooden box with a rose on it, and
inside that box is the DaVinci. That's the only thing

(45:28):
that Sophie knows in the entire movie is like, how
the Da Vinci could works, but she doesn't know how
to unlock it, and she doesn't try. And yes, she
knows what a cryptics is, which is the thing that's
in this little box, and it's this device that you
have to spell out a five letter word to unlock
it and retrieve like a little piece of papyrus inside.

(45:50):
But if you break it, then the vinegar also inside
the cryptics will dissolve the papyrus and then the secrets
lost forever. So that's a lot of exposition that she
very clunk Lee delivers to us. Mess I liked it
better when it was just squirting like lemon juice on
the Declaration of Independence. That was a little more my speed.

(46:13):
But whatever, they made a choice, sure, sure, sure, But
now they've hit a dead end because Langdon doesn't know
enough stuff about the Grail legend. So they go to
Lee Teping aka Ian McKellen, who is a Grail historian
who is also a billionaire, and it is not clear
how he has any of his money. That was my thing, Like,

(46:37):
once you find out he's the spy, you're like, well,
of course he had to have some grift going on,
because like Grail historians, that has to pay four dollars
a year, Like what who is? Like? I feel like
that's not like a thriving job market where you would
have like entire zip code to yourself. Maybe he's nepotism,

(46:57):
we don't know, could be who care that being a
Grail historian is the type of job that you would
have if you're like the kid of a very wealthy
family and you don't have to actually have a real
job or work or anything. I got so bored at
this part that I started to do a thought experiment
of like what if you were on a date with
someone and you were getting along and then you're like,

(47:20):
what do you do? And they were like, I'm a
Grail historian. Would you feel like I need to go?
Or would you say I'd better stay. I feel like
I would be kind of turned off by a Grail historian.
I'm inclined to agree in the same way many people
are like comedian, I have to go, and it's like

(47:43):
I get it. Um, that's how I would feel about
a Grail historian, And actually maybe I would feel a
little superior. I'm like, oh, you found a job that's
more embarrassing than nine. Yeah. True. Um. So they go
to Lee teeping, and Lee explains that the Holy Grail
is not a cup, which is what it is commonly

(48:05):
thought to be. It's a woman, but not just any woman.
It's which one Mary Magdalen. And not only that Mary
Magdalene was Jesus's his wife what and then but wait,
there's more. There's more, which is that that she was

(48:28):
gregnant as hell with Jesus as greg That wasn't in
Jesus Christ Superstar. My mind was blown once that platfoin
came up. I'm like, oh, I do remember reading that
in the book and being like, oh, what how could
it be? Or like does all this like you know,

(48:49):
it's like high key bullshit, but it is fun. Like
maybe it was more fun in the early two thousand's
when like online conspiracies were not um killing people at
the same rates they are these days. But at the time,
I was like, oh, yeah, there is no cup in
that painting. It must mean that Emily is Jesus's niece

(49:12):
like that it's so conspiratorial and weird, and yeah, I
mean it is, like those kinds of scenes are really
fun to watch, especially when they end up being correct.
You're like, wow, you you you made a big swing
and you were right. Yeah. So basically t Being is
making the argument here that da Vinci had left all

(49:33):
these clues in his work that Mary Magdalene was Jesus's
his wife and that she is the actual Grail and
that it's not this like Chilice thing anyway. So he's
like going through this whole power point presentation, and then
he says that once Jesus was crucified, Mary Magdalen fled

(49:54):
to France and gave birth to a daughter. So basically,
the secret that the Priory of Scion has been protecting
for the past two thousand years is the fact that
Jesus has a bloodline. And this whole string of airs
makes you think and the reason that like Silas and

(50:18):
Alfred Molina's character and like Opus Day exists is that
they are trying to kill Jesus. Is fair the descendants
of Jesus family, because the revelation that Jesus was like
a mortal man who can get people gregnant would kind
of unravel the church's teachings of like the divinity of

(50:40):
Jesus Christ, we can't be having that. It was Oh
my god, it's so sailing, And this whole scene takes
like twenty minutes. It takes a lot. They cut away
to other stuff every once in a while, but I'm like,
you think I don't notice that Ian McKellan and Tom
Hanks have been debating for twenty minutes about Mary Magdalen
because I did Audrey tattoo is barely there. She's like

(51:03):
it could it can't be what? No, And then like
Ian McLellan keeps asking her rhetorical questions that she gets wrong,
Like that's the whole. It's so much. I think that
it's worth mentioning, just in keeping with our male feminist
king narrative that Robert Langton he's written a book and

(51:26):
you know because we see him reading his own book
at multiple points in the UH and it's called Feminine Saclair,
The Sacred Feminine, and you're like, god, he's so toxic,
but he like the whole it's so two thousand and six,
but it's still kind of like something that doesn't not

(51:47):
exist now, where it's like sure like siss head men
who are so invested in proving their respect women that
they just speak over women for hours on end without
even noticing, Like at every man who is like good
quote unquote in this movie, it's just talking over women

(52:07):
and explaining women to them, and to extend being like, no,
I am obsessed with him and I respect them, but
only if they are says reproducing wives. Does that make sense?
And you're just like, okay, the way we're defining womenhood
is also toxic, Robert langdon oh. Yes. So it's at

(52:33):
this point in the story where after all this stuff
has been explained to the only woman in the narrative
who has no idea what's going on, right, Lee starts
to decipher the cryptics, which is against supposed to have
a map inside that's going to lead to the Holy Grail.
But just then Silas Sneak attacks them, so they have

(52:54):
to flee in Lee Teebing's plane, which he has a
of a jet of the plane, and they go to
London and they take Silas as a hostage, and on
the plane, Robert finds another clue in the box that
the cryptics came in, so they go to the tomb
that this clue speaks of, and they're they're trying to

(53:17):
get more information or something. This is a whole this
is another like and then or something happens where I
don't really know why anyone is doing anything. So they're
trying to find some information. But te Bing's servant man Remy,
kind of turns on them and he turns out to
be the teacher. But oh wait, just kidding, it's Lee.

(53:39):
Ian McKellen is the teacher. He was the spy. He
was the spy again, another wide swing that ends up
working out for Ian McKellan. I'm like, how did you
get away with that? He's calling from his home phone number,
like being like, I, oh, yeah, I know, Jesus is niece.

(54:01):
Don't worry about it, like just weird stuff, weird stuff
I don't know. Um, But so he's not he's the
bad guy. And then so he he in like Langdon
and Sophie have kind of like gotten away from each other,
but then they crossed paths again and he's trying to
get them to like solve the cryptexs and he his

(54:22):
whole thing is he wants the secret of the Grail
to be exposed. So that's why he's like obsessed with
like finding the location of I don't know they're looking
for like Mary Magdalen's sarcophagus. I don't even know what's happening.
I don't even know what. And then Robert Langdon it's
at the right. That also made no sense to me.

(54:43):
I'm like, so the louve is just why do they
have it? What? And who put it there? I guess
the priory of Scion put it there, but how did
they manage that? I feel like these are questions who
that weren't intended to be asked. So then we see
a scene where Silas accidentally shoots Alfred Molina but he survives,

(55:09):
so it's okay, yes, but Silas guess what he dies?
He dies? And then um, let's see okay, So this
is where Lee finds Sophie and Langdon again, and he's
holding them at gunpoint trying to make them open the
cryptechs and then Robert breaks it on purpose, knowing that
it's going to destroy whatever's inside, but he knows what

(55:30):
the Da Vinci code is K and and right. I
didn't even I'd like skipped over the whole Apple thing
in I was like, this is too preposterous. I can't
even include It's the most important part of the movie.
When Tom Hanks turns away from where Audrey tattoos in
the middle of being damseled root of him. Right, he
turns around, envisions the solar system, figures out the da

(55:51):
Vinci code was Apple. They smashes the da Vinci code
just in case it wasn't Apple, and he doesn't want
to embarrass himself. That was I I think that Audrey
Tattoo should have been like she seems okay, Like she
seems just like kind of like not invested enough in
what's going on, as even though it's like it's theoretically

(56:12):
she's got the most on the line here, she seems
kind of indifferent towards a lot of the events of
the movie. When he smashes the da Vinci code. Later,
she's just like, why did you smash the da Vinci code?
I was like, dude, like Jesus's map was in there,
Like why are why do you care so little? It's
just like her character is just so underwritten that she's like,

(56:35):
why why would you smash a da Vinci code. He's like,
while it was Apple, and she's like, you're so smart,
like so the da Vinci code is Apple? Question. Also,
there's just really bad storytelling here where somehow, I mean
everywhere in this movie, but yeah, here, especially where the
police come in and arrest Lee because Fash had figured

(56:59):
out that he's the bad guy. And I don't remember
exactly how that happens, but they know that Lee is bad,
so they arrest him. And as he's getting arrested, he
like somehow realizes that Langdon had figured out the cryptics
and he's like screaming about He's like, you figured it out,
that's awesome, good for you. So he's like carrying on

(57:20):
as he's getting arrested, which spoils what should have been
a reveal that yes, he did figure it out and
he had he did know that it was Apple, and
he had taken the map out like it was a
lucky guess. I still think it's a really lucky guess,
because there's no way I just have call me a
da Vinci truther. But I just think he would have

(57:40):
thought it out more than Apple in in modern English.
But it doesn't make sense. Well, I think that is
like Son was the one who devised that cryptex, because
they've got to like figure out like as the secret
gets passed on down the centuries, not not to be
a defender being Apple. I'm actually fully defending this choice.

(58:09):
I think it's brilliant. I think the clue of like fleshy,
red seated womb equals apple. That's a perfect clue. The
more you think about the da Vinci could being apple,
the worth a grocer, it gets yes. Anyway, so the

(58:31):
reveal gets spoiled that in fact, Langdon did solve the
cryptics and he took the map out, and the map
is just another clue which leads them to Roslyn Chapel,
which is this like Church of Many Faiths built by
the Priory of Scion or something. And then they find
this secret room with a bunch of documents about the Grail,

(58:54):
and Langdon discovers that Son was not actually Sophie's grandfather.
He was just protecting Sophie because she is the Holy Grail.
She is the heir of Jesus Christ and Mary Magdalene.
At this point, I'm just like, who cares, not Sophie,
So why should I care? Sophie literally could not react

(59:18):
less to being Jesus's niece. It's so she she just
once again, it's like it can't be. I'm like, you're
in the National Treasure Basement, like what is what are
you talking about? She's so just We're getting nothing from her. Nothing.
What if you if you thought out you were Jesus's

(59:38):
biological niece, you would react, Yeah, one would. I wouldn't
say nothing. Everyone react a little different, but I wouldn't
say nothing. And god, God, so frustrating. I'm like, she really,
she really just said huh okay me but I'm so boring,

(01:00:02):
and it's like, you're not wrong there. So then meanwhile,
all all of the priory of scion has gathered because
they live a half hour away or something, yeah, and
they're like, Hi, sophieze, we've known who you were this
whole time. And then her grandmother is there? Is that

(01:00:24):
her biological grandmother? I don't know. I was really unclear
in that. I'm like, is that Jackson's wife or is
that her biological because they were like, oh, Sophie is
the only living person, and I'm like, but wait, what
about that lady? Yeah, we don't know. She doesn't have
her womb doesn't work anymore, so she's rendered obsolete. I
guess who doesn't give a ship either way. Sophie. She

(01:00:48):
doesn't ask a single question. She just goes, oh, what
a day, What a day I'm having? Like, yeah, gosh, okay,
so then Robert Langdon and Sophie say goodbye. But later
Langdon's like, hang on, Mary Magdalen's sarcophagus wasn't there? Where

(01:01:09):
was it? The mystery still isn't He reads his own
book again, reads his own book to find the answers,
and he's like, bloodline Rose, line Rose, what does it
all mean? And then he realizes sarcophages rocks, ranks socks
and then I'm just like, I don't think he figured

(01:01:31):
anything out. I think he just stumbled around guess an
old library. And then he's like, I can't believe Mary
Magdalen's buried at the louver, Like what are a perfect
ending shot? Though so expensive looking? So yeah, so he
goes to he realizes somehow that Mary Magdalen's sarcophagus is

(01:01:52):
under the louver or like somewhere in the loop. I
don't know, and then he kneels down and he prays,
and that's the end of the movie. Questions, No, it

(01:02:14):
made total sense to me. I this movie is hilarious,
Like there's just it's just so expensive it wants you
to think it's It's like, I don't know. It is
like fun to watch a movie that really thinks it's
doing something, you know, and it's like so like sweeping

(01:02:34):
and engaging, and you know that people really liked it
when it came out, and then there was like, I mean,
there was such a huge controversy around this movie and
everyone was like, you know, but but then you watch
it and you're like, this is ridiculous. I wanted to
start by I want to just kind of uh start
by talking about how albinism is portrayed in this movie

(01:02:58):
and many so that's I think one of the biggest
missteps in the I mean just the story as a whole,
because I know that that is I believe Cannon to
the book as well. Yes, I believe so so um
so yeah. I mean there is just a very traceable

(01:03:18):
history of, um not just prejudice against albino people, but
prejudice against albinism in movies specifically and using albinism as
a shorthand for demonizing a character. I have an article
that came out at the time this movie was released

(01:03:38):
in summer two thousand and six. It was in Shadow
Penn State News. I found that one as well. I thought,
you know, it's it's it's kind of a cursory or review,
but kind of gives you a short history of villains
who are albino in movies. There's also, I mean, I
think it's it's worth saying that there is part of

(01:04:00):
the reason this shows up in movies a lot is
because there has been prejudice that has been extremely violent
towards albino people from all over the world for like
hundreds of thousands of years. There were people who were
sent to prison for hunting albino people as recently as
two thousand and nine. Like it is like a very

(01:04:21):
very pervasive prejudice that is really really rarely discussed, and
it's very present in this movie through the character of Silas,
who is played by Paul Bettany, who we know is
not an albino person. So I just wanted to read
a quote from this piece from the Penn State News

(01:04:44):
to kind of open the discussion. It's from Marybeth Oliver,
who is a Penn State professor and talks about the
psychological effects of media. Basically breaks down that a lot
of albino stereotypes are connected to vampires, going back as
far as nose furraw too, and just associating paleness and

(01:05:07):
like really really light pigmentation of the eyes, of the hair,
and of this skin, with zombies, with vampires, and just
with inherent badness. So and and uh, the article kind
of goes down to and Silas in the Da Vinci
Code is kind of the most recent version of this
prejudice seeping into a villain because it is in no

(01:05:31):
way necessary to Silas's character for him to be an
albino character. He is a religious extremist with a traumatic
pass that can be literally anybody. So the choice for
him to be an albino character an extremely underrepresented population
in movies is really intentional, you know. And so uh,
Mary Beth Oliver says, quote to portray any group as

(01:05:54):
one dimensional is a problematic thing, even if negative portrayals
are infrequent. If it's the case that every time albinos
are depicted it's negatively, then the images become connected. Demonization
of any group runs the risk of affecting us in
ways we might not be aware of. Um and then
kind of notes that Silas is uh symptomatic of this prejudice,

(01:06:15):
but is in no way singular. This is like a
very distinct media trend that is like very rarely discuss Yes, indeed, UM.
I did a little bit of research on this as
well and wanted to share something I found from the
Tri City Herald shout out UM so this was published

(01:06:39):
in It talks about a study from the University of
Texas that examined heroes and villains the top ten heroes
and villains from the a f i S Greatest Heroes
and Villains list and found that sixty percent of the
villains had some form of skin disease and none of

(01:06:59):
the hero none of the heroes did. So just like
extending beyond Albanism, there's like a just a huge We've
talked about this before in terms of like disability often
being ascribed to villains absolutely and then therefore demonizing disability
UM and then quote. The study also mentions the widespread
trope of the evil albino, in which TV shows, movies,

(01:07:22):
and other media treat albino characters as untrustworthy, ill intentioned,
and villainous. According to the National Organization for Albanism and
hypo Pigmentation, sixty eight movies released between nineteen sixty and
two thousand six feature evil albino characters, with a large
portion of those coming after the year two thousand. UM

(01:07:44):
it talks about how this movie was protested by the
National Organization for Albanism and hypo Pigmentation, but you know,
the filmmakers still made the choice to include this trope.
And this is a quote from Michael McGowan, the president
of NOAH at the time that he did an interview

(01:08:06):
with the Associated Press in the earlier mid two thousand's said, quote,
the problem is that there has been no balance. There
are no realistic, sympathetic or heroic characters with Albanism that
you can find in movies or popular culture. So it's
the same end quote. So it's the same thing that
we see all the time with villains being mothered in

(01:08:31):
some way that ends up being very toxic and harmful
for people, an extremely marginalized group. And it's I mean,
and on top of that, I mean, in the in
the same way that we've been having ongoing conversations about
how disabled characters and and just are are very rarely
played by actors who have that disability. And Paul Bettany

(01:08:55):
is a wonderful actor, but certainly cannot speak to that experience.
And it's just it couldn't be more obvious in the
context of this movie that albinism is used to other
this character. It is used to make the character look
different from other people and to some extent like justify, well, oh,

(01:09:16):
they look so different from what I'm used to. Of course,
they're not going to be the good guy in this movie.
And it's it's it's so it's really I mean, I
think that this is the first time we've talked about
it extensively on this show. But it is like such
uh longstanding issue, and there are still not like, I mean,

(01:09:38):
I can't think of like an extremely successful albino actor,
even though there are you know, many who are working
and so yeah, I don't know, I mean this, yeah,
it's just for me. It's like the worst part of
the movie by a long shot. And what will link

(01:10:02):
in the description of the episode some resources where you
can learn more as well. Yeah, I mean that's where
it's just there's absolutely no argument to be made by
perpetuating this stereotype in two thousand and six in a
way that like it couldn't be less necessary. This is
a religious extremist character. You don't need to marginalize a

(01:10:25):
community to get across that religious extremism is not good. Like,
it's just so absurd that it's uh, it's it's really
upsetting to watch. And then similarly, one of the other
characters who ends up being a major villain the t

(01:10:46):
being a k Ian McKellen is a character with a
physical disability. He uses canes and they like repeatedly refer
to him jokingly as he, oh, he's a cripple, and
like everyone is like may being fun of his and
it's like you can still see it's it's being done
for this very unnecessary, ablest narrative reason. It's like, oh,

(01:11:09):
we need to make him look, you know, harmless, So
what will we do. Let's give him a disability And
it's like that is just I mean it we talked
about it a lot, but it's just it's so harmful
and lazy. It's really it's it sucks. And then also
that you see like him like pushed around while he's

(01:11:32):
navigating with canes and just like it's it's so it's
just so aggressively unnecessary. That is trash. It is simply trash,
and we do not like it. Um but wait, there's
more more that we don't like. I mean, we we

(01:11:52):
already started to kind of get it that like let's
just get like we're going to get all the like
truly harmful evil ship out of the way, and then
we're just gonna dunk on the Da Vinci code. But yeah,
I mean, the this movie's view of valuing and respecting
women is so fucking goofy. It's it's for I mean,

(01:12:18):
it's extremely siss normative, where it's like, well, the reason
that Mary Magdalene is important is because of like her womb.
I'm like, it's just like creepy, turfy language. And then
on top of that, it's like I feel like we're
supposed to believe that Robert Langdon and like what Lee

(01:12:39):
t being are like feminists because they acknowledged a woman's existence,
Like it's just so bottom of the barrel. And then
even but even so, it's like, well, of course we
valued her because she was as a wife and a mother,
but we acknowledged that she was a real person. And also,
don't say she's a sex worker because I like that,

(01:13:01):
and like that offhand comment of like Ian McKellan being,
you know, horrified that it was suggested that Mary Magdalen
was a sex worker, which, as we I mean, it's
just another extremely marginalized and stereotyped community in film, and
it's just God, I'm like, this is this the feminism

(01:13:23):
you ordered? I guess this is Bush administration. Feminism is
so a man, a man screaming at you that it's
okay to be a wife and a mother, Like shut up.
A huge component of this movie is like the symbology
surrounding Oh, this symbol equals male, and this symbol equals female,

(01:13:47):
and Holy Grail equals woman's womb and is as you said,
just like reductive, insist normative. And but the characters are
presenting this information as if they're like, actually, it's awesome
that the Holy Grail is Mary Magdalen's womb and her bloodline.

(01:14:08):
And it's and it's because of the church hated women
and they and they burned witches at the steak. But
women are actually cool because of their ability to have
sex with men and give them children. It's so it's
it's like just so frustrating that they're like, this is

(01:14:30):
what women this mel Gibson thought he knew what women wanted.
This is what women want to be called God. It's
obviously we say this all the time too. It's like
no disrespect to like people who have babies and people
who give birth like amazing, keep it up if you
want to write. But yeah, it's just like the most basic, reductive,

(01:14:54):
incorrect way to define. It's just so annoying. They don't
say anything about Mary Magdalene except that she was a wife,
a mother and moved to France, like and not a
sex worker. And on top of that, this kind of
like dovetails into what there is to discuss about Sophie.

(01:15:14):
It's like they're just talking at a woman the entire
movie who is Like again, it's it's kind of I
don't I guess it's the opposite of a Mary Sue.
I don't, it's a it's a Susan Marie, where where
we're presented with a woman who should know how to
do a lot of things but is not allowed to
do anything. Like we meet Sophie as like a well

(01:15:37):
respected cryptologist. I kind of like how she's introduced. She
enters very authoritatively, She's like, I am Sophie, I am
a cryptologist. Everyone takes her very seriously, like it's immediately
she's in control of the situation. She gets a little
code across to Langdon and yeah, I thought it was
generally kind of a strong introduction to that character. But

(01:15:57):
then it's just like she proceeds to contribute nothing to
the story, not seem to really care what's going on
in this story, even though it very much concerns her,
like and it's just like she she's she's damseled several times,
even though usually when she's damseled, she's damseled first, but
then everyone's damseled and you're just like, okay, what It's

(01:16:19):
just there's just like we find out. I mean, I
guess the things I can say about her are I
love Audrey Tattoo. She's great. We do know more I
think about, like Sophie's background than we know about Robert Langdon's.
Like all we really know about Robert Langdon as he
teaches at Harvard and he fell in a well true,

(01:16:41):
but I would argue that a lot of like men
who are writing a female, like a strong female character, well,
she's defined by her trauma exactly. It's like a character
who has a tragic backstory and then it has turned
them into this kind of like stoic, almost cold, emotionless personality.

(01:17:04):
Lists is that even what she's supposed to be coming
off as like, it's so uncure how we're supposed to
be receiving her, because there's just nothing. It's just I
just woke, I just woke flee up with my screaming
about the Da Vinci code. But yeah, I mean, she
just like she's devoid of any kind of personality, humor,

(01:17:25):
emotion of any kind. Nothing. She's like, I hate history.
I was like, but what do you like? Like, do
you even like breaking codes? It sure doesn't seem that way,
right because you don't have any You don't seem to
be able to do it, because we don't see you
do it at any point, except she knows that PS
equals Princess Sophie I'm which is like, well, if we're

(01:17:51):
I guess while we're in the reductive zone, why not
Like I'm gonna I'm gonna try to coin this. She's
a full on Susan Marie. She should know how to
solve a number of problems that are going on in
this story were introduced to her as a person who
is extremely qualified to solve this, but instead of her
solving anything, we are just introduced by Robert Langdon to

(01:18:13):
other characters who should be able to break a code
and it's like, but she's right there, like it's it's
so and it is like doubly frustrating to me that
she just doesn't even seem interested in codes, And it's like, well,
if you're not interested in codes, why were we introduced
to you as a code expert? Like if she was

(01:18:35):
just I would I would feel less insulted by this choice. Honestly,
if she was just like a regular person, she's like,
I don't know. I own a I own a plant shop.
I don't know about this, Like that would make more
narrative sense, given how little she does, if she had
no expertise in this, but we're told she has extreme expertise.
And then she's just like I don't know. Like when

(01:18:56):
Ian McKellan has a gun to her head and he's like,
what the da Vinci code, she's like, I d K,
I d K my bff gill, I guess he'll just
have to kill me, and like she doesn't even try.
She hasn't think for a second about what the da
Vinci code might be. She doesn't seem to care, like

(01:19:16):
it's just so bizarre. And then when they're like looking
at all the invisible ink scrawled all over the floor,
and he's like, wait a minute, the Fibonacci sequence, they're
out of order. Maybe that's a clue that the letters
are out of order. And she's like, oh, an anagram.
And then, rather than trying to solve an anagram as

(01:19:38):
a fucking cryptologist, she's like, shrug, can you do it? Robert,
and he's like, you bet you then, and then he
iconically says moons, sermons, charms, demons, sermons, monks. He's has
servants twice, also monks, ranks, rocks, like at least Robert
Langdon for someone who is not a cryptologist. Uh, seems

(01:20:00):
drisketed in breaking coach like it's even though he clearly
sucks at it. And he thought that Da Vinci Coulde
was Apple, which I am increasingly convinced it was not. Okay,
here's another thing I'm I'm realizing in real time here,
so bear with me. But okay, okay, So Sen what's
is his name? Sennier? I don't I don't know how

(01:20:21):
French Jacqueslier I feel. I also think that Dan Brown.
Maybe I'm totally right if we have French matrons. Uh,
please correct me if I'm wrong, But it does just
sound like Dan Brown is writing down the most French
names he can think of. Like he's like, um, Jacques Soldier, sure, yeah,
print it. I'm a billionaire. Now watch my master class.

(01:20:44):
I'm going to watch his masterclass and he's going to
talk have a four am and eat spinach, and I'm
gonna turn it off and then you're going to be
the most successful writer of all time, Jamie. Um. Okay.
So Jacques, who we learned through flashbacks, has been training
Sophie to break codes and follow clues and like he's

(01:21:08):
been like prepping her for her entire life for this
kind of thing. But she cares, which she doesn't care.
And he has so little faith apparently that she will
be able to solve any of this stuff that he
explicitly tells her find Robert Langdon, even though he is
not a cryptologist and is not an expert in deciphering code.

(01:21:31):
I was kind of wondering that, like why, because Robert
Langdon himself says, I don't know why I would be
the person to go to, right But this the entire
plot of this movie hinges on the fact that a
man had so little faith in a woman to be
able to propel the story forward that he's like, Okay,

(01:21:53):
woman who I know, find this man over here because
he'll be able to help you. Okay, But also canonically
it was he wrong. It wasn't like Sophie could solve
any of the codes. He solves zero of the codes.
She just knew that one thing had a code inside
of it. True, But that is just because the writing

(01:22:14):
is such dogshit. Well yeah, like of course it's it's
because Dan Brown doesn't actually care about women, Like that's obvious.
But like in the Cannon, it makes total sense to
me that Chaque Sag would have very little faith in
Sophie's ability to solve this code because she doesn't solve
a single code. And the movies four hours long. I'm
also realizing I have all these notes saying Robert and Sophie,

(01:22:38):
Robert and Sophie, Robert and Sophie, and I'm like, literally
Robert Evans and Sophie was literally our friends. I wrote
it down five hundred times last night, and I literally
at one point like, this feels weird. I feel like
I've written this before. Uh because wait, wait, what if
that's of my closest friends. Wait a minute, just saying
what if that's code. What if the movie is trying

(01:22:59):
to tell us something about friends Robert and Sophie. I
hope not. Let's just say, as someone who really detests
both of these characters, I hope not. I hope. Oh
my god, that's so funny, though. They should. They should
start in our reboot. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Robert and so
except this time Sophie does know how to do things

(01:23:23):
and Robert isn't. He's just carrying guns around. Yeah, he
just has he doesn't really, Yeah, he just has the
He's kind of the muscle of the operation. Um, I
don't know who Ian McKellen is in this situation. We'll
figure it out. Let's think on it. But um, yeah,
to kind of go back to just like a lot
of this plot is men explaining things to women. This

(01:23:47):
happens a lot in a lot of movies across many genres,
where it's like basically a storytelling device, and I think
I think it actually um composes like the vast majority
of human interaction. I've had so many things that I
already know explained to me by men and it doesn't

(01:24:10):
come from nowhere, right, Um, So what happens here with
this kind of trope even is that there's a story
that requires a lot of like world building or exposition,
and the writer needs to figure out a way to
get this across clearly to the audience. So what they
usually do is pull in a character, like, you know,

(01:24:32):
an audience proxy who the other characters can explain things too,
so that the audience can get this information. What usually happens,
or what often happens, is that this character is like
the only woman or one of only a very few
number of women in the story. I remember talking about
this in the Casino Royale episode. This happens in Laura Croft,

(01:24:55):
this happens literally. I mean, I think it's like honestly
part and parcel to every genre, but it's like it's
prevalent in the action genre, like action sci fi. Yeah,
world building genres especially, and I think that it has
a lot to do with I would guess that genres
that people assumed for a very long time that men

(01:25:17):
are the main audience for this genre, that it features
a lot of men talking at women, right, And it's
just like it's just a it's a trope that operates
under and reinforces the assumption that like women don't know things,
women don't know as much as men. Women aren't smart.
Men are smart. Men need to explain things to women,

(01:25:39):
and like that is just like such a widely held
belief still, particularly by men. But this one is like
even it just feels like a very weird mutation of
that trope because it's men talking at women, not just
about anything. Of this is how spaceship work, this is

(01:26:02):
how computer work, or like extremely binary assumptions of like
men know about this thing, women know about this thing.
These are men who are talking about women a woman
like it's it's like worse than the normal one because
like it's all bad, but it's especially annoying to hear
men explain women to them Like that is just like

(01:26:23):
what are you doing? Like the room couldn't be less
read in this scenario. There's at that scene is fucking
twenty minutes long where they're explaining birth and marriage and
like just and what aren't they explaining about sis women
to us this woman who's sitting right there, Like it's

(01:26:44):
just so And then it just means that like because
the two men already know things about this and they
formed their own theories, they get to like debate and
like actually have a discussion, whereas Sophie is just talked
at and explained to. And it's just but again, the

(01:27:05):
thing is, like Sophie should be able to engage with
this discussion to some extent based on what we know
about her. She just the writer's Dan Brown slash the
guy who wrote this movie. Don't let her. That's why
it really bothers me. Is like we have been told
that she has a level of knowledge that at least,

(01:27:27):
even if she doesn't know jack shit about the Bible,
she is a cryptologist. She's a very critical thinker, Like
she would be able to engage with this conversation actively,
even if she wasn't the expert on the subject, she
would at least be able to intelligently interact with this topic.
But she just doesn't. She just say they don't just

(01:27:48):
make her sit there and like be like, huh what,
That's not what I heard. And then I cut to
Audrey Tattoo, who like wakes up from the nap she
was taking because she hasn't they haven't put a camera
on her in fourteen hours, and she goes that can't
be or she goes like but wait, or like Ian mceellan,
like multiple with that scene asks her questions that he

(01:28:12):
knows the answer to that he knows she doesn't know
the answer to, and then she will answer it wrong,
and then I'll be like ha ha ha ha, No,
you fool, it's Mary Magdalene and she's your mom. And
then you're just like, oh my god, this is exhausting.
It also makes you wonder why Jacques would not tell

(01:28:38):
Sophie anything about her true identity or her history. Like
it's not like she's too young. She's like in her thirties.
It's not like, oh, I couldn't tell her she was
only you know, she's ten years old. She couldn't handle
the truth. Yet it's like, no, she's like she's thirty
three years And I think the movie tries to like
explain this, this story of the book whatever, tries to

(01:28:59):
explain this away by like saying, oh, no, they lost touch.
But why would the grand Master of the Priory of
Scion let that happen, let himself lose touch with the
last living air of Jesus if his whole thing is
protecting this air, Like he literally had one job. He

(01:29:20):
had one job and then he like, I just it's
so funny. I would love not the let's scale that down.
I think it would be really funny, like the amount
started to go back to the whole, like invisible ink
in the loop, But how long must it have taken?

(01:29:43):
Like and you never see you see? I think I
mean were to assume all of the invisible ink he
had on hand when he died at the louver. But
his his hand never falters. It's all in the same fond.
It's all in like comics hands b and he just

(01:30:04):
is like whoop, whoop, whoop. He's doing like anagrams in
his head as he's like bleeding out from his stomach
like god the okay, yes, so ultimately the point So
and we didn't Caitly and I agreed, we're not going
to get into the extreme sexism in Catholicism or organized

(01:30:24):
religion in any way because it is just too vast
and we wanted to have fun today. Okay, But I
do feel like Dan Brown uses extreme misogyny in organized
religion to make his misogyny look not that bad. I
feel like he kind of offsets it, like any time

(01:30:47):
he is there's like a scene of a woman being
talked over, ignored, whatever, it's you know, a crime against
women that is far more violent. Is like invoked almost
as if to say, like, sure, I'm an asshole to women,
but I wouldn't murder one in the Holy Wars. Like
it's just kind of this weird equivalent. I wouldn't burn

(01:31:08):
a witch at the steak for free like that. It's
just yeah, I think he again, I just really think
he thinks he's doing something. Um when it's like a
tattoo has is technically in the scene, but she hasn't
had a line of dialogue in minutes. Um, it's just ridiculous. Yeah,

(01:31:33):
this is just such a It's it's just like a
female character who is couldn't be more important to the
story and couldn't be worse written, less engaged. But I
feel like it's just like whatever, it's two thousand six
and having a woman physically present is like we did it,

(01:31:55):
you know, Like it's just so have asked and annoying.
He's just right, She's just there to basically be a
big reveal, Like her function in the story is to
like be the twist. She's just he's just carrying around
Chekhov's womb, right, So, but if that is something you

(01:32:15):
want to do in your story. Fine, I guess, but
also you have to spend the rest of the story
carefully characterizing her and not just like having her tag along.
The other thing that really annoys me about it is
that um they keep referring to once. They like they're like, yes,
I guess, well, let's agree that the Holy Grail is

(01:32:36):
a human as the sun, the heir to the air
of Jesus. And they keep using he pronouns, you know,
whoever this living air of Jesus, because because they just assume.
But it's also I think the air they can take
seriously that, but it's also I think just done to
like throw you off the trail of the big twist

(01:32:58):
that it's Sophie. So it feels like that thing where
it's like, oh, the person who was like writing that
motorcycle and had a helmet on, who you thought was
a man. Oh, they took the helmet off and it's
actually a woman. It feels like adjacent to that, right,
and then it's like end of observation. I've gotta I've

(01:33:18):
got to I've got a quote. I've got a quote. Okay,
this is classic backdel cast citation process. This is the
abstract of a paper I would have had to pay
forty dollars to read, So I'm gonna go into the abstract.
I would like to find this paper for not forty dollars.
No disrespect to its author um. This was published in

(01:33:40):
two eight. It is by a professor at the University
of Robert UH feminist King UH by Professor Christie Maddox,
and it is called the da Vinci Code and the
regressive gender politics of Celebrate Wating Women. And I really

(01:34:01):
uh should read this paper because it's the abstract I
feel like really concisely boils down the kind of like
both nous of like them thinking they're being feminist while
ignoring all female characters. So here's what Christian Maddox says. Quote.
The public outcry prompted by the Da Vinci Code accused

(01:34:23):
the novel of being a radical feminist text with potentially
dangerous implications for Christianity. The novel celebrates women, the quote
unquote sacred feminism and quote unquote goddess worship, which on
one level gives it ideological kinship with the important tradition
of difference or cultural feminism. This analysis, however, argues that
the novel undercuts its feminist moves through its persistent recourse

(01:34:46):
to the private sphere and it's unremitting celebration of the biological.
The narrative falls victim to the problem that commonly inheres
in different slash cultural feminism. It redefines the binary system
of gender as well as resulting heterosexuality. Through these anti
feminist impulses, the da Vinci Code makes plain that celebrating
women does not always make for feminist progress. Instead, the

(01:35:09):
da Vinci Code highlights the dangerous inherent in cultural slash
difference feminism. Finally situated with its religious context, the da
Vinci Code demonstrates the possibility for feminisms co optation by
moral reform politics, which I think is just kind of
an academic way of saying like sort of what we've
been circling around this whole time, which is that, you know,

(01:35:33):
Dan Brown, this movie in general seems to be saying
that by you know, celebrating women in any narrow, extremely
sis binary way is enough of a win to call
itself a feminist text, which wasn't helped by how this
movie was received because it was, you know, like denounced

(01:35:56):
by the Catholic Church. And I mean it's like I
feel like we both kind of remember and like ever
helps a movie ever like, But part of the ground
that was banned on was like, well, they're deifying women
and we don't do that in Catholicism, which is you know, true, right,

(01:36:17):
but it resulted in this property being cast in this
like radical feminist lens, in a property where there's only
one female character who has nothing going on like at
any point, and so um yeah, I wanted to shout
out Christie Maddox. I feel like she very intelligently said

(01:36:38):
something that I felt strongly watching this movie, but couldn't
like get into those words. It's like, it's just it
just speaks to I think this bar on the floor
at this time. Well, it's it's kind of operating under
the same logic that like conservative like the way that

(01:37:00):
the patriarchy values women, because you'll find plenty of like
misogynists people out there who are like, no, I love women,
their sacred. We have to protect them because there are
mothers and our wives like it's and our daughters and
our daughters. And it's literally like Ted Crustyle, like I
have a daughter, I cannot possibly be a bad person,

(01:37:22):
Like you're just like sir, right, and it's just like
operating under the same logic almost like of well, women
are so special to the world because they're the ones
who give life and who are wombs walking wombs, which
is like no disrespect to people with whoobs that you
don't want to have babies with the whoops. It's just

(01:37:45):
the reductive ism of of the thing that it just
excludes so many people. And it's a god I mean,
just like sciss men are never reduced to a biological function.
And in this way ever, like to the point where

(01:38:05):
as Robert Langdon is explaining male and female symbology to Sophie,
he's like, the the the triangle that whatever, I don't
even know what that symbol is, but like an upside
down V. That's the symbol for man. It's a rudimentary
fallast known as the blade represents aggression and manhood. And

(01:38:28):
then he's like, as you might imagine, the exact opposite
of that is the female symbol, as if male and
female are opposite things like that, I mean, I think,
I guess, not in defense of him, but like I
I do understand, like that is like a historical like
that is like a symbolic thing that's existed for a
long time, but he just presents it as kind of

(01:38:49):
like this is a fact, right, I mean, which I
think is is extremely of the time. It's like in
two thousand six, there I don't think they're I mean,
there really wasn't much conversation in depth in the mainstream
about challenging gender roles and like the sis binary gender

(01:39:12):
dynamic in in really any way. And I feel like
that scenes like that, really it takes like an ancient
symbol and obviously the further you go back, the worst
gender politics grow, like, but it's still presenting it in
a very matter of fact way of like, well, of
course this is boy and this is the it resembles

(01:39:36):
the shape of a woman's womb, and it's like, why,
why is this the way you're presenting this information. I mean,
it's like it's it isn't surprising and like I didn't
expect better of this movie, but it's yeah, it's it's
just like it's an extremely of its time movie that

(01:39:56):
like the fact that that is like a very matter
of fact line dialogue delivered in a movie that is
supposedly progressive on gender politics is like, well, that's all
you need to know, right, I wanted to go. We
touched on this also a little bit about like the
lack of romantic subplot in the story that like it
almost seems like, well, maybe it was going to be there,

(01:40:19):
but then and then it's just not. I think they
wanted us to do a will there, won't they? But
but I can't. I cannot think of a single were
we really was anyone in the audience like kids, like right,
I wasn't feeling that. I appreciate that they didn't force

(01:40:39):
any kind of like romantic subplot. Although there's this one moment.
It's the scene where Lee he's like holding them at
gunpoint and he's threatening to kill Robert Langdon, and he's
talking to Sophie and he's like, oh, by the way
that you've been looking at your hero, you wouldn't let
him die, would you? And I'm like, is the aplication

(01:41:00):
there that like she is romantically interested in him and
he's sort of like using Langdon as leverage to get
what he wants, because he thinks that Sophie's in love
with him. Huh. And I was like, what is what?
Why is that there? I It's just like I don't

(01:41:22):
I don't want to think about it. I don't. I
you you you, and the fact that we are like
to I mean, yeah, it's again, it's just maybe so tired,
Kaitlin that you can think about like, first of all,
impossible to root for it because it's like even large
age gap aside, which is another like trophy tropy trophy

(01:41:45):
element of this genre, specifically action genre loves an enormous
age gap. And that is not too I want to
be a little clearer on that, because I feel like
there is just kind of like a general feeling that
any age gap is not okay, that is not you
know that that's that's not true. I mean, there's many

(01:42:08):
relationships in which an age gap is present and the
relationship is perfectly healthy and it's fine. And like, I
don't mean to like cast that net so widely as
I think we have in the past. I just I
just think that it is in this case, I think
pretty clearly done because of the value that a woman's
youth has on screen and how that is not as

(01:42:32):
much of an issue when it comes to assist male actor,
and that is I think, you know, a huge reason
why we see those age gaps present is because even
in two thousand six, it was only acceptable to see
a female lead in an action movie. You know, you
cannot crust the age of forty or all of a
sudden you need to be an Oscar winner or extremely famous,

(01:42:54):
or we have a problem, and like there's just kind
of this unspoken set of rules. And then on top
of that, if you're Tom Hanks and Audrey Tattoo and
you have no chemistry, and part of the reason I
don't I don't even want to put that on them
too much because it's because they didn't write Audrey a
character like maybe there would have been some chemistry between

(01:43:17):
them if she had had anything to do or say
or think. Like I feel like that whole thing speaks
to like a series of small issues that it's like,
I mean, I think we've talked about this recently, is
like we're not like completely against a romance in a movie.
The romance just has to like be healthy and makes sense.

(01:43:40):
Like it's really like, I mean, it is kind of
a high bar. Declare just speaking from experience, but like
it is not an impossible thing to be rooting for
a romance in a movie, even ahead or a rim romance,
like it can be done. We've done it, maybe we'll
do it again and we don't know. But but it's

(01:44:02):
just the way that this is set up is like God,
I mean, it's impossible to root for because we're just
given nothing. We're given Tom Hanks and the expectation that
we want Tom Hanks to fuck and it's like I'm
just not really there, like he you know, he can
mind his business, and but it's yeah, okay, that was

(01:44:24):
my Jamie's a little ran no please. And to just
add to that the age gap thing. Another component of
how it can become problematic is when there's like a
series where we see the same male star aging James
Bond syndrome, yeah, and then the female lead cast alongside

(01:44:44):
him is usually different. In every movie, it's literally McConaughey ship,
like they stay the same age and he stops getting
over there like exactly. Yeah. We've talked about that before
on different episodes. But and it's I mean, with let
me look up, what the hell is this movie called.
It's Felicity. It's Felicity Jones, who is younger. So it's

(01:45:06):
not Zoe Deschanel got it similar haircut. I think you
were you were tricked by the haircut, because she does
have bangs in this movie. But it's Felicity Jones, who
is I think almost ten years younger than Audrey Tattoo.
Um because the movie came out ten years later, so
they legally need to be thirty five. No matter what,

(01:45:27):
even if there isn't a actual romantic subplot in a
movie like this, it's still framed as like, look at
these two people doing action scenes together, and they're spending
a lot of time together, and they're both attractive, especially
the woman that it's presented as if it is from,
because if you look at the I mean even on

(01:45:49):
the Da Vinci code poster on Wikipedia, I think it's
pretty unambiguously like Audrey Tattoo is like afraid impressed against
Tom Hanks's chest, like you are supposed to be thinking
of this as a potential for romance, Like it's pretty
unambiguously like that's what you're supposed to think. And even

(01:46:09):
if they don't even actually like kiss or have sex
or anything like that in the story, and thank god
they don't. Just like the quest the adventure, the like
close proximity they're in is just like yes, like presented,
is this like sexy thing, the fact that she heals
him with her christ like power, hears him of his

(01:46:30):
fear of falling in a well again with her christ
like hands, and you're like, I mean whatever, it's just
it's just annoying. I just I wanted to bring up
that age gap thing because I I was thinking about
how Florence Pew took a ton of ship and even
like I was like on the wrong side of that
issue originally, where like Florence Pew is dating Zac Breath,

(01:46:53):
they seem to be very happy together and people were,
you know, giving them a ton of ship for their
being and not in faking age gap, I guess in
that relationship. And she was like, I am an adult.
I'm like twenty six years old. Shut the funk up,
like stay out of my life. And it's like, yeah,
point take it, like live your life like it's it's

(01:47:15):
just it's But in terms of like this kind of universe,
I think it has I don't know, it's I feel
like it's slightly it's kind of a different discussion between
like people that exist in the world and are in
love in the world versus a forced movie couple with
absolutely no chemistry, like it's two different discussions, and we're

(01:47:39):
having the movie discussion here. And because like, at least
where I usually come from is like, because a woman's
youth is usually valued far beyond other qualities about them.
It's just something that always pings me. And we see
these trends in media of age gaps that usually have

(01:48:00):
the implication of demonizing a woman aging. And you know,
there's the this idea that men are allowed to age,
but people only want to see women on screen who
were young. But again, it's worthwhile to examine this on
a case by case basis rather than making any kind
of sweeping generalizations about it. It's a fair I mean,

(01:48:23):
it's a really complicated issue, and I will fully admit
that I have like had kind of an unfair take
uh in the past in some cases, in cases like this,
I feel like it's kind of unambiguously like what the fuck? Uh.
So you know, it's the da Vinci code. I don't

(01:48:44):
know what we expected. The da Vinci code is Apple,
So any question none. Um. There were a few scenes
where I was like, where Sophie participates in the action
that I was kind of surprised. I was like, oh,
she like bashes Silas's head against the ground after he

(01:49:06):
attacks them at the chateau, and then later she like
picks up Lee's gun after he's been disarmed. And then
I was like, all right, she does that because she's
a cop, Like I forgot that. She was, like what
her even background in training is because the movie cares
so little about letting you know anything about her that
she would like have some like combat skills and she

(01:49:27):
would know how to handle a gun. But it was
just like, oh, Okay, she's allowed to. She's not like
fully sidelined every time. She actually does participate in some
of the action. And then I was like, all right,
she knows how to do that because she's like a
trained police officer anyway. So I was like, well, I
guess points and then points taken back away. The other
thing is that like, and this is just this is

(01:49:49):
probably neither here nor there, but she is wearing high
heels and a pencil skirt throughout the entire movie. And
if it were me and I found myself in the
middle of a Grail quest, the first thing I would
do is be like, hey, can we go to a
store or like to my apartment so I can change
into like pants and well it's comfortable cloth. I also

(01:50:13):
like going back to the romance platform a second. The
fact that we're supposed to like they have spent a
maximum of thirty six hours together, Like I understand that
a good old fashioned trauma bond, but it's not been
that long. Yeah, I do. And I think that that
is the problem you're describing is a Howard specific problem

(01:50:33):
because was that not the exact same thing that came
up with Bryce Dallas Howard when she was in those
damn Jurassic Park movies. I didn't watch. Yes, that is
exactly it. It was like she was wearing high heels,
but she was a genius scientist running from the Jurassic Park. Yeah, Like, yeah,
it is kind of a similar thing where it's like

(01:50:54):
again it's it's it's frustrating to me because it's like
we we know as lovers of cinema. Then Audrey Tattoo
is an incredibly dynamic like character actress. She can pull
off a lot of looks, she can pull off a
lot of different energies. Like she's really talented and we're
just thrown into like I feel bad for her watching

(01:51:18):
this movie because it's just like she's just thrown into
this generic ass role where it's like she's dressed generically,
her character is written barely, and when it is, it's generically,
and it's like, God, you were like you've been given
this incredible I mean to invoke another French actress who
people try to like inject into like aggro male American movies.

(01:51:42):
It's like Marianne Courtyard and Inception, where you're like, here's
this enormously talented actor who is like being given just
wife shit to do. It's just yeah, it's just annoying, man.
It's it's like, if you want to I I resent that,

(01:52:03):
Like these really talented female actors are hired because they're talented,
and then they're not given anything to do that would
showcase that talent in any way. It ends up making
them look bad. And that's like just not fair, Like
that's such an unfair exchange to have to make. But
it does feel like very often with like and this

(01:52:25):
is again, this is changing over time, and it is
more significant in marginalized communities. And but this exchange of
like to go from like being an indie darling to
being a mainstream star means that you need to kind
of like sacrifice everything about yourself that was interesting and
showed like that you were like this, you know, dynamic actor.

(01:52:49):
Like it's just when that isn't true for for most
sis male actors. They're allowed to, you know, take the
charisma that made them successful and carry it into the
mainstream because that fucking makes sense. Like why would you
hire a really interesting, talented actor and then give them
I just don't get it. It's like, in that case,

(01:53:10):
then hire fucking anybody, Hire someone who sucks it acting.
You wouldn't even know the difference, you know, like it's
just weird. Hire me, I suck at acting, and yeah,
but I wouldn't. You would never know because I wouldn't
have to say anything. But can you wear a shoe?
Like that's all used that to be able to like
talk at Tom Hanks and just be like, what, No,

(01:53:34):
that can't be. It couldn't be. Like it's any any
you know, human person who could say it couldn't be
could have played that role. So it's it's extra shitty
that it took a very talented actor who deserved a
meteor mainstream role and was given nothing well but anything else.

(01:53:55):
I think I've said everything that the Vinci code was ultimately,
did this movie pass the excelsas I honestly, I'm going
to guess no. I don't think so. I didn't forget
to pay because the only other female characters who we
see are like the occasional none or are there any?

(01:54:21):
I really don't the fact that we're talking about women
this entire movie, barely any appear. Yeah. I do not
believe that this passes the Bectel test. It's what a
what a stinker? Wait, I just I just googled that
this is funny. Okay, So there is this website that

(01:54:41):
I don't think we've ever directly cited, even though it's
hilariously perfect thing for us to talk about. It's Bectel
test dot com. Uh, and it's it's a pretty I
think it's kind of an old website. It looks kind
of html E and then it just you can just
look up the name of a movie and then people
will comment whether you think it passed the Back to
Tis by our Magic. I do not think it passes.

(01:55:05):
But here are the three comments. Dr space Goat said this.
Dr space Goat said it passes. Sophie and Sister San
Dreen the letter of which is killed off in the
third of the first third of the movie, and I'm like, well,
I don't know whose sister Sandrin is, so that's a no.
And maybe she was credited on IMDb. I didn't hear

(01:55:27):
that name spoken. But I don't think she and Sophie
even do they talk to each other. She's I think
she's the nun who gets killed by Silas. Uh. See
the fact that we even have this question is I mean,
maybe it's another nun. Does she talk to a different nun?
Sophie does talk to her grandma, who is maybe not
actually her grandma, and she's like, I'm your grandma, So

(01:55:50):
does I don't know? Okay, So Larissa five six five
six had something to say about that. Larissa says the
grandmother doesn't count as a named character. While book readers
will recognize her as Marie Chauvel, she doesn't say this
in the movie, and it's credited only as elegant woman
at ross Lynn in the film's credits, So I'm gonna

(01:56:13):
say that doesn't count. Wow. So you know, there's a
little and then there's a guy named Greg who threw
his hat into the ring and said it did pass.
But Okay, this is fun. Greg says Sophie and her
grandmother have a conversation. In the end, it is about
giving her up to Jacques Sonyer, I don't think that
is really about a man. And it's like, Greg, do

(01:56:36):
you hear yourself when you talk? Um? So, I'm gonna say,
based on Bechtel test dot com, I can't think of
about a resource. Uh doesn't pass. I guess that's Sophie
does talk to someone who identifies as her grandmother, but
we only know as elegant woman at ross Lynn. Well,
if we're going by my new caveat that I'm going

(01:56:58):
to add into the mix from now on, which is
does the interaction between women is it meaningful to the story?
Could it be taken out and the story would be
or feel no different? And in this case, you could
take Sophie. You could take Sophia. She could be The
thing is like, ultimately Sophie could exist in the narrative

(01:57:22):
and be off screen the entire movie period, and that
does not bode well. Like they could be like, there's
this woman named Sophie, she's Jesus's niece. I've never met her,
and the movie could basically play out the same way. Yeah,
more or less outside of one or two buks on
the head. So uh, this for me is a no

(01:57:44):
as far as passing the test um. It's also a
painfully white movie. Absolutely yes. So um, this movie sucks
and I would give it. I guess, like I don't
half nipples, zero nipples. I don't know, does it deserve anything.

(01:58:05):
I'm giving a zero. I'm giving a zero for Hubris
because it really thinks it's doing a lot and it's
it's just not I'll say I love the first at
last twenty minutes of this movie are just hilarious. They're
so funny. There's so much going on. You have no
idea what's going on, and it's just like happening at

(01:58:26):
you and you're like, like, it's it's very it's a
very engaging experience because you're just like, why are they
yelling at me? And they're they're like, I've got it,
Moon Sun Star Isaac Newton, Like it's just it's really
funny on that like it's it's hilarious, but it is.
It's not doing anything for anybody. It's just it's just

(01:58:49):
a bunch of bullshit, you know whatever. Some guy that
has like a christ complex made a million dollars off
of it, and now we can watch his masterclass. But
it's just it's no nipple. What it what? What? It's
like the most reductive interpretation of women period that excludes
a great many women. It's it's like defining womanhood in

(01:59:13):
a very disingenuous way, which is having a womb and
being married to Jesus. Well, guess what that's that's a
really weird bar to clear. Well, as someone who identifies
as a womb first and second as Jesus is his wife,
I take offense to that. Jamie, Well, honestly, you are

(01:59:36):
the target demo. It's just a disaster. Like it's It's
just it's reductive in so many ways. It's ablest. It's
all white people. Really. I mean, if if I had
a nipple, I would give it to that hilarious Tom Hanks,
Moon Sermons, Charmed, Demon Sermons, Muggs, Rank Rocks, Madonna of

(01:59:57):
the Rocks, Da Vinci. That should be on the A
five Best movie lines list. But outside of that, I
just I just even if this movie is attempting to
and I think it is attempting to with some success,
in a very narrow amount of time attempting to include
women at a fundamental level in Christianity, which is not

(02:00:21):
an insignificant attempt, right, Like that is that's not the
worst thing I've ever heard of. Sure, let's get women
in there, let's throw a girl boss into Christianity, see
what happens. But but ultimately, I just I'm just kind
of like rolling my eyes at like how much this
movie thinks it's doing versus what it's actually doing, which

(02:00:42):
is being really long and boring. Zero nipples. Yes, but
shout out to Alfred Molina, a character who I also
I think could be taken out of the movie and
the movie would really be not that much different. But
we're so glad that he's there. We're thrilled he's there.
He's really um he's I mean, he's great in the

(02:01:02):
scenes he's in I don't know what he's sucking talking about.
Like every time they brought up the name of his cult,
they're like opus day and I was like, what is that?
Is that like a computer but it's a group? Uh.
I have no idea what he's talking about at any point,
but I did love to see him, So this is weird.

(02:01:23):
This is like, I mean, speaking to life of a
character actor, much like Alfred Mallina is an iconic character actor.
But he's in both movies we've covered this week. Uh
really not that much at all, very minimally in pretty
like kind of villainous, antagonistic roles. Let Alfred Molina play

(02:01:43):
the lead? Why didn't he play the lead? More? Come on?
And Dad thinks he's nice? Well? Um tuned back in
at some point down the road for March Fred Molina
Part two, in which will cover an education as well
as species. I insist I want to see Alfred willing

(02:02:07):
to have sex with an alien. So no pushback here.
It's on. It's on Hulu. It's it's quite excited it's
on Hulu. Are there no? Oh yeah, Oh. I thought
you're like, oh yeah, there's a ton of vestors. There's nothing,
but okay, I'll watch it. I'm excited, but I think
as it stands, Um, first of all, to everyone, for

(02:02:28):
to all over four hundred of you who voted for
the Da Vinci code, I hope you're happy. I don't
know what you wanted or what you expected. We basically
included the Da Vinci choked, the Da Vinci chode Okay,
I've had two glasses of wine and I'm the division.
That's what our reboot is called. It's called The Boy.

(02:03:01):
I would say, you know, I don't know what you
what what this little joke was that you were playing.
But us, it feels like the Matrons are pranking us
by voting for I think I think that the Matron's
historically like a movie that it seems like we'll have
nothing to say about, and then we always have two

(02:03:21):
hours worth of more hours worth of things to say.
My little theorious people don't come to the Matreon for
productive discussion. Sound off of the comments if you agree
that this is where we drink wine and get confused.
Uh this yeah, this movie is trash. What I think

(02:03:42):
is going to be really fun is that guaranteed? Like
maybe if the if the world doesn't burnt to a
crisp in ten years, um, I will watch the Da
Vinci Code again in ten years and have no recollection
of anything. And this is just kind of like a
once a decade they weekend experience, UM, where we're like, wait,

(02:04:03):
the Da Vinci Code is Apple, That's what the fuck?
And we can just have this. I think in that
way it was all worth it because we just get
to have this gorgeous experience of realizing that that we've
been watching this long ass movie for the worst twist
of all time. I'm tempted to because even though I've

(02:04:24):
read the book Angels and Demons, I simply don't remember
anything about it. So now I'm tempted to watch that
movie and just have a similar experience Angels and Demons, April.
They don't want it. They don't want to. You know,
what what if we what if we punish the if
we punish the Matreon by being like, oh, you wanted

(02:04:46):
the Da Vinci code, Well, now we're doing an I
hope you thought that little joke was funny everybody, because
we're never going to stop talking about the Robert Langdon universe.
Oh my god, Robert Langdon is the most basic name
for a man. There. Robert Langdon study was like just

(02:05:10):
absolutely going off. Um, well, thanks for tuning in Matrons
to Alfred marsh Lena. We love you. We resent you
for this one, but we love you. I'm gonna go
guess what I'm about to do, Jamie read every word
of Angels and Demons without pea breaks. I'm gonna sit

(02:05:35):
in the bathtub for eight hours. I literally got sick.
My mom was so mad at me, It's like, why
are you sneezing? Was like, I didn't leave the baths
up until I finished the Da Vinci. It was like
the most two thousand four interaction I've ever had. That's
impressive that you read in eight hours. I don't know.
I think I read like I finished it. I probably

(02:05:57):
came in with it like whatever, a percentage the way
and then refuse to leave until I had full on pneumonia,
like well, I'm gonna I'm about to suffer the same fate.
So but I want what I'm going to read it
I was going to say is that I'm gonna go
eat an apple. It's better feel really symbolic. I want

(02:06:22):
you to think of my womb when you you're rosy,
fleshy womb, my rosy fleshy, fertile Jesus womb full of seeds.
And then I want you to run. I want you
to sprint. I don't want you to take a bus
or an uber or I don't want you to drive.
I want you to run to the louver and neil

(02:06:44):
at the loom and think of my fertile womb, because
that is what it's all about. That is the real apple,
the sacred feminine. Honestly, I feel like, ultimately you can
get all the same story beats out of I Frankenstein
and it's more fun to watch, Like the Holy Wars are.
Literally it's just like the battle between demons and gargoyles.

(02:07:07):
It's the same. It's all the same, and I Frankenstein
is a more fun movie to watch. Justice for I
Frankenstein fingers crossed for this year's Oscars, Oh gosh, Well,
all right, I if I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go
laid down, lie down. I don't know. Okay, thanks everyone,

(02:07:32):
Bye bye,

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

The Bechdel Cast News

Follow Us On

Hosts And Creators

Caitlin Durante

Jamie Loftus

Show Links

Popular Podcasts

40s and Free Agents: NFL Draft Season

Dateline NBC

The Bobby Bones Show

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Da Vinci Code