The Handmaiden with Soyoung Chon

After many twists and turns, Jamie, Caitlin, and special guest Soyoung Chon team up to analyze The Handmaiden. 

Here's an article about the historical context for The Handmaiden, "How Japan Took Control of Korea" - https://www.history.com/news/japan-colonization-korea

(This episode contains spoilers)

For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.

Follow@BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP on Twitter

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Doll Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women and um are all their discussions just boyfriends and
husbands or do they have individualism the patriarchy? Zef In
best start changing it with the Bell Cast. Hey, Jamie Caitlin,
I just wanted to say thank you so much for

(00:21):
giving me a job as your handmaiden. Oh, your welcome,
And I just want to let you know I'm definitely
not trying to trick you and steal your fortune or
anything like that. Okay, well, I guess while we're on
the topic, I wanted to let you know that I'm
definitely not three steps ahead of you what with the trick,

(00:43):
and I'm tricking you based on your trick, and your
trick is actually a whole distraction. And it doesn't matter
because we're going to fall in love at the end.
At the end, all the tricks cancel each other out
and it's uh, and we're gonna go on a boat.
I love that for us, Good for us. Yeah, I'm
gonna seem I'm gonna seem like I've never been outside.

(01:05):
But here's a twist. I have been outside a couple
of times. Okay, at least all right, well, I love
that we're learning so much about each other. We're in love.
What can you do? Hello, and welcome to the Bechtel Cast.
Perfect intro as usual, amazing, we nailed it. My name

(01:27):
is Caitlin Darante, my name is Jamie Loftus. And this
is our podcast where we look at your favorite movies,
your least favorite movies, movies that you don't know how
to feel about, using an intersectional feminist lens. And we
use the Bechtel test simply as a jumping off point
to initiate a larger conversation. And the Bechtel test is

(01:52):
a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechtel, sometimes
called the Bechtel Wallace Test, and it has many versions,
and the one that we are using these days, and
let's and and and we also have been finessing this formula.
We've been finessing our little, our little twist on it

(02:13):
for half a decade. At this point, it's true. The
metric that we are using. The caveats, if you will,
are that a movie has to have two characters of
any marginalized gender who have names. They must speak to
each other about something other than a man. And ideally

(02:36):
their conversation is meaningful, plot relevant, not just a throwaway
exchange of dialogue or maybe it's in the case of
this movie, a deceitful exchange. I love a good deceitful exchange.
You know what it's allowed. And then something that we

(02:59):
should bring up more often. Um, but it's especially relevant
for a movie like this is that the test originally
appearing in Alison Becktel's Decks to Watch out For. In
the context for that was that Alison Becktel's characters, who
are queer women, would watch movies and pay attention to

(03:21):
if the female characters in the movies they're watching speak
to each other, and if so, do they talk about
things besides a man? Because if so, then Alison Bechtel's
characters could ship them together and pretend that they were
lesbians in the movie that they're watching. So that is
the origins of the Bechtel test, speaking to the piss

(03:44):
poor representation of any queer people in movies at the
time the comic was published back in A five right,
and then for a movie like this, no shipping required
because the care actors do that for you. It's cannon. Yes,
So the movie that we're talking about today is The Handmaiden,

(04:07):
and we have a guest joining us. She's a pal
of ours. She's a cyber security engineer. It's so young
chan Hi. Hello, welcome, Thank you for having me, thanks
for being here, for being here. So we're interested in
what is your relationship, your history, your general impression of

(04:30):
The Handmaiden. Um. Yeah, I thought it was pretty wild
from start to finish. Um. These types of movies don't
don't really come out that much from South Korea because
Korea is a pretty conservative country still, so this was
a big shock when it came out featuring two lesbian

(04:51):
women and that that never that never happens. But I
thought it was overall really really good, really new and
groundbreaking for Korea. So that's what I thought. It was
pretty cool. Yeah. Oh, I can't wait to talk about
it more. Jamie, what about you. I hadn't seen this
movie yet, and it rocked my world. I really like

(05:16):
movies that really keep you on your toes like this
where I guess if you haven't seen this movie, I
would recommend honestly watching it because listening to us, like
some movies, I feel fine spoiling for our listeners, but
this movie. I'm so glad I didn't know any of
the twists going in, because sometimes I'll go into a
movie being like I've seen I've seen it all, and

(05:37):
then it turns out, guess what. I like half of
my notes from the first half of the movie, I
had to like highlight being like just kidding, I am,
I am the fool, Like they got my ass. It's
so tightly written, and I just, yeah, this was my
my first time. I've seen it twice. I feel like

(05:59):
this is a movie that really delivers on a rewatch
and I just really enjoyed it. Holy holy shit. I
am just not as smart as this movie. I'm not
operating on this level. And it was a pleasure to
be in a world where I was like, oh, yeah,
I would have Um, I don't know what would have
happened to be if I existed in this world. I

(06:20):
would have I would have just died because everyone is
operating like everyone's playing four D h S the entire movie.
It's wonderful. Yeah, Caitlyn, what's your history of this movie? O?
G whiz. I saw it not right when it came out,
but I remember there being buzz around it because it
was released in the US sometime I think in the
back half of and then it won the Oscar for

(06:45):
Best Movie not in the English language. Yeah, for like
the Oscars. So I was like, oh, all right, got
to see it. Exciting. So I was still getting Netflix
devids at the time, so I took it upon myself
to borrow rent or whatever have Netflix send me a DVD.

(07:05):
And I don't normally do this, but I watched the
movie and then as soon as it was over, I
immediately watched it again because I was like, WHOA, holy shit.
I don't even want to process that. I just want
to like rewatch it and just have a better understanding
of what happened, because, like you said, there's so many twists,

(07:26):
there's so many layers there's and so I've seen the
movie I think like six or seven times now, and
every time I watch it, I discover something new or
like notice like a new little clue, or like a
bit of foreshadowing or some like plant and payoff, or
just like some detail that I had overlooked before. So yeah,

(07:49):
it definitely holds up on a rewatch. The twists are
so intricate that or like some of the reveals are
just like I won't remember what happened, so like, every
time rewatch it, it's like I'm seeing it for the
first time. So I'm just like, whoa, And it's it's
beautiful to look at. It's mesmerizing. Yeah, the story is
so tightly written. I love this movie so and the

(08:14):
history behind the movie is also really interesting. I didn't
know about like all the adaptation stuff going on in
this movie, so I'm very excited to talk about it. Yeah.
I also, in preparation for this episode, watched the BBC
like two episode mini series Fingersmith. She's okay, yes, well,

(08:36):
then I was also like, Sally Hawkins is in this.
Paddington's mom is in this. Obviously I have to watch it.
See I always think of Sally Hawkins. I'm about to
sound like I hate women. I'm like, she's the lady
who had sex with the fish in the movie. I
know that lady, but that was reductive and I apologize,
but she did have sex with a fish. I mean,

(08:57):
you're not wrong, I'm not, but I should remember the
character's name. I just know it was Sally Hawkins. Well,
she's definitely Mrs Brown in the Paddington franchise, so I
did watch Fingersmith, and um, do you like it? I
did it, So just some context for anyone who's um

(09:20):
not aware. This movie is based on a novel called
Fingersmith by Sarah Waters that was published in two two
I think so obviously we did not read the book
because we famously on this podcast do not read books.
It probably won't to stop people from getting mad at
us for not reading a book, but listen, the show
is free. I don't know what to tell you, but

(09:43):
I did watch this adaptation and probably like the second
half of Fingersmith is pretty wildly different from the second
half of The Handmaiden, where I like the ending of
the hand Made In way better. And I don't know
if that's just because like I saw it first and

(10:04):
my brain just works that way, where I'm like, well,
the first thing I saw is the thing that I
like better because it happens all the time with me.
But uh, I don't know. I feel that it gives
the characters more agency. Yeah, I I like the handmade
in better. I like the narrative choices that were made there.
So yeah, it's a It's the rare movie where I

(10:25):
feel like we're constantly complaining about how movies are. Movies
are long, but this movie is two and a half
hours long, and it does not feel two and a
half hours long, which is incredible a miracle. Yeah, should
I get into the recap? Yeah, yeah, let's let's do it.
And so I feel free to jump in at any time.

(10:47):
It's a free for all. Absolutely, thank you. Okay. So
the story takes place in Japanese occupied Korea, so both
Korean and Japan These are spoken by almost every major
character throughout the movie. I believe we are in the thirties,

(11:08):
although the decade wasn't super clear, but I read in
interviews that, yeah, it's supposed to be the thirties. Okay. Cool.
The story is divided into three parts. Part one, we
meet Suki, a pickpocket, a forger. She's like a common thief.
We also meet a Korean man from a low class

(11:31):
who is masquerading as a Japanese nobleman. He's going by
the name Count Fujiwara. I kept calling him Count all
off in my head because anytime someone introduces themselves as account,
I was like, okay, all counts are con men. This
is a trend in media. All accounts are lying about
being a count and they're where they're always wearing a

(11:52):
hat and um lying, that's my knowledge accounts and I
think that's canon. Yeah, this Ivan does this count challenge
that he does not, it's true. So he helps Suki
get a job as a handmaiden to Lady Hitigo, and
he does this because he intends to seduce Lady Hitiko,

(12:16):
marry her, put her in like quote, a madhouse so
that he can steal her fortune, and he needs Suki's
help to do all this. So Suki, using a fake name,
meets Lady Hideko and starts tending to her. She spends
most of her days helping her uncle Kazuki with his

(12:39):
rare books, which he collects and sells, and then he
also hosts private events where Hitiko does readings from the
books for rich Japanese gentleman rights. And the meaning of
rare books is really stretched and challenged later in Yes,

(12:59):
her uncle is It becomes apparent pretty early on, and
then even more apparent later on that he is extremely
creepy and he's also trying to marry how to go
to get access to her fortune also something that count
all offs trying to do all the time, just a

(13:19):
lot of count connections here? Oh my god? Right, counts
are always trying to marry people under false pretenses to
get access to a fortune. I need to write a
think piece about this. Doesn't count all off pretend to
be those children's uncle too, or some family member. He
pretends to be a distant relative in order to adopt them.

(13:43):
I mean, I didn't, I didn't even put that together.
If anyone ever introduces them as a count, walk away,
they're lying. What's the story of the count of Money
Monte Crystal? Oh? I know I saw that movie, but
no idea. I feel like there's some deception involved there
as well. Is okay, this is not the Count of

(14:08):
Monte Cristo. Is that related to the sandwich? Or is
the sandwich a separate thing? Monte Cristo sandwich? Is Monte
Cristo a place? Um? I think they're also. I was
just born this morning. I think they're all extremely not
only connected, but identical. What is even in a Monte

(14:31):
Cristo sandwich? You know what I'm that's one where they
like there's ham and there's cheese, and you're like panini
it and then there's like powdered sugar on top. There's
always such a scam. When someone makes a very simple
sandwich sounds extremely fancy and they're like, it's it's like
Monte Cristo at seventeen dollars, and then you get it.
You're like, this is ham and cheese. How dare you anyway?

(14:57):
Speaking of the Count, yes, he gets to work on
seducing Lady Hideko under the guise of giving her painting lessons. Meanwhile,
Suki and Heideko are getting closer and they are clearly
attracted to each other. And the further into the scam

(15:18):
Suki gets of like helping the fake Count Mary hidego,
the more Suki wants to back out, especially after one
night when Lady Hideko wants Suki to teach her how
to kiss so that she will be ready to kiss
the Count, and then they end up having very steamy sex.

(15:41):
Suki has no choice but to keep going along with
the scam, and the two of them run away. They
travel with the Count to Japan, the Count Mary's Hideko,
and then he and Suki take Hideko to be institutionalized.
But wait a minute, turns out it the Count and
Hiteko had been the ones who were tricking Suki and

(16:04):
they send Suki to the institution. I gasped right when
edeko uh. At first, I was like, what is going on?
Because she hugs Suki and then she walks backward really quickly,
and I was like, what is happening? And then it
was the twist. But wait, there's more. There's more. There's

(16:25):
two more parts. So this is the beginning of part two.
We learned what the real situation is with Lady Hiteko.
She's not this like virginal, naive lady that we all
thought she was. The books of her uncle's that she
does readings for our very pornographic something that he's been
training her to do ever since she was a child,

(16:48):
which is what disgusting. Yeah, and this is like, this
is something he's done with like other members of the family,
to like with her aunt as well. Yeah, it's a
whole thing. Yes, So when the Count first meets her,
he realizes that he would never be able to seduce her,
so then he forms a different plan, which is to

(17:10):
collaborate with her, take her away from this place and
set her free, and then they will split her fortune.
And then it's her idea to find a handmaiden and
send her to the institution under her name. So then
a lot of the same story beats play out that
we've seen before, but this time through hiokos point of view,

(17:33):
with like Suki arriving and tending to her and convincing
her that she's in love with the count. But then eventually,
because Hitiko and Suki are falling in love, Hiteko also
wants to back out of the plan right and then
finally the two of them reveal to each other that
they have been tricking each other. So seen is so

(17:55):
good but scary but good. Where Lady hit the I
goes about to take her own life. She's about to
hang herself, and then Suki catches her, and everyone watching
the scene has an anxiety attack of like, I hope
that she has strong arms, uh, and this whole scene
have it's It's really good. These two actors together are

(18:19):
incredible for sure. So now their new plan is to
team up with each other against Count Fujiwara, and then
right before they're about to run away, they also destroy
the Uncle's treasured book collection as basically a like fuck
you dude gesture, and then we realize that when Suki

(18:42):
is taken to the institution. It's all part of the plan.
So then part three is Suki escapes from the institution
by lighting it on fire. I was slightly confused about
the logistics, but by that point in the movie I
was like, Yeah, sure, she liked it on fire. I
believe it. Meanwhile, Hitiko drugs the Count, escapes and meets

(19:06):
up with Suki. They flee and get on a ferry
to Shanghai. And then the Count has been captured and
brought back to the uncle's estate where the uncle tortures him.
And then the Count smokes a couple of cigarettes laced
with mercury, which poisons the air and kills both the men,
and then we cut back to the ferry where Suki

(19:27):
and Hitiko have more steamy sex. And that's how the
movie ends. So let's take a quick break and then
we will come back to discuss. And we're back, where

(19:48):
do we Caitlin, I'm genuinely curious just to start, what
is different about the ending of the BBC adaptation, because
I know that the largest adaptation change is obviously changing
the setting and the I think the time period was
shifted as well. I think it's a Victorian England to
nineteen thirties Japan and Korea. But what what is different

(20:12):
about like the plot points of the ending. So yeah,
the first half plays out basically the same, but in
Fingersmith the two women never collaborate. They never say, oh,
you're tricking me, I was tricking you. Wow, Let's team
up together and take down these male oppressors. That does

(20:32):
not happen. Instead, the handmade in character ends up in
the institution and then stays there for a while, does
still escape. Meanwhile, the lady character like is taken to
London after this marriage, and she keeps trying to escape
and they're like, no, we still have to get your

(20:53):
fortune from you. Uh. So she eventually is able to
run away and goes to one of like the book
collectors that her uncle knows, but then he turns her away,
so she has to go back to the home base
of all the like the Thief House, basically in London, which,
by the way, the sort of like matron character is

(21:16):
played by Amelda Staunton, who is of course Aunt Lucy
from Paddington's Okay I'm with Yes, So there's a lot
of Paddington connections in Fingersmith. So and then that like
matriarch character is like, hey, royal lady person, by the way,

(21:40):
you were switched at birth with this handmaiden lady, and
so she's the actual lady, and you're I think maybe
I'm getting that totally wrong because things got also very
confusing at that part. The handmaiden is better. Yeah what
I'm hearing right, Yeah, So there's some like switched at
birth scandal can't introduce switched at birth at the end

(22:04):
this fourth grade. And then so the count guy who
they call whose name is like the gentleman in Fingersmith,
comes around at some point and gets murdered by unclear
which person it was. It was either like the lady
or the Amelda Stanton character, but Amelti Stans character takes

(22:25):
the blame for it, and then she is hanged. So
that sort of now that all these people are dead,
she goes back to her like estate with all the books,
and then Sally Hawk like the handmaid and character comes
back and they sort of like reconcile. So the huge
difference is that there's never a team up. There's never

(22:45):
like a co conspirator like let's take the men down
kind of thing. They just sort of like have to
forgive each other, and then there's some like class stuff
of like you're not who you think you are, and
it's also kind of confusing. So that's Fingersmith. It sounds interesting,

(23:07):
but long I like this better. Yeah, okay, well, thank you,
thank you for thank you for sharing that. I I
wasn't aware how how much the source material deviated from
this adaptation. Yeah, it's pretty significant. Or I mean again,
because we haven't read the book. Who who knows what

(23:29):
happens there? Who knows how much that BBC adapt adaptation
deviated from the original source material. But The Handmaiden is
pretty drastically different in the second half of it from
Fingersmith the BBC series, UM got it? Yeah, so yeah.
And because of that, one of the things I like

(23:49):
about this movie so much is that it's a story
about men trying to exploit women and pit women against
each other, which doesn't work because the women talk to
each other and then they're like, wait a minute, these
men are trying to suck us over, so they instead
team up and punish. They're like again the male oppressors,

(24:15):
and then they get together and they live happily ever after. God,
I hope so or at least happily on the ferry,
they at least have an amazing cruise. So as you
started to talk about So Young in terms of like
this being a pretty groundbreaking film for South Korean cinema,

(24:38):
in terms of it's like queer representation, Yeah, just curious
if you have any other thoughts on that or yeah,
because you know, queer representation, it's just it's not there's
not a lot in Korean media and stuff like that,
even in you know, songs and stuff, and while it's
still while it's changing and people are becoming a lot

(24:59):
more open to it, it's still not on the forefront
like it is in America or you know, other countries.
So this was a you know, this was a pretty
big deal for not even it's not even like two
gay men, because that would have been still more something
that you would see, but to two women that that
is unheard of. So this was, Yeah, this was pretty

(25:21):
groundbreaking in that way, and I appreciate it. I saw,
like I guess, mixed reception of of the sex scenes
and how they were filmed and framed, and I'm interested
to talk about that as well. But I did appreciate that, like,
this movie is not shy at all about what it's
about and about this like intense sexual connection that these

(25:44):
two women have, because I feel like we I mean,
even in covering other movies on this podcast, you know,
very often when there is a relationship between two women,
you get a fade to black situation or you you
don't get the sex scene that appears in many PG
thirteen movies between a man and a woman. And so

(26:05):
I was, yeah, pleasantly surprised to see. I was like, oh,
we're we're getting sex scenes. That's exciting. I'm very pro sex,
especially like and this would have been more common in
at least like older American movies. But I just remember
that episode that we did on Fried Green Tomatoes where

(26:27):
the source material like more explicitly makes it clear that
the characters are queer. But then the movie, because it's
like a movie from the nineties, not even suggests it.
It's just like they're friends. They're friends who don't kiss
each other like they're friends, and they lived together for
such a long time, which based on how you described,

(26:53):
like the history of queer representation in South Korean cinema
so young, you might expect there to be more of
a like coding of like that relationship. Even if like
the two characters like do team up and like screw
over the men, that the precedent was set, it sounds
like to not get very explicit about the nature of

(27:14):
their relationship. So the fact that we do it is
very explicit, and we do see steamy sex scenes, which
again we'll talk about. But yeah, I was like, I
thought that was I thought that was really cool because
I did a little bit of just kind of I'm
by no means an expert in Korean media and certainly

(27:36):
not in like queer representation of it. But there is
a very helpful Wikipedia, our favorite scholarly journal page specifically
about queer representation in Korean media and that how according
to two scholars pill Ho Kim and see Colin Singer,

(27:58):
there are three pretty distinct waves of queer representation in
Korean cinema. Where there's like an invisible age from nine
seven where there was like minimal, very minimal l g
B t Q plus representation in film. But those films
were like relegated to the sidelines, like they didn't get publicity,

(28:18):
they were not mainstream. Most people didn't see them. They
like flew under the radar, and then there was the
Camouflage age from two thousand four, where representation grew during
that period, but queer characters and themes were still sidelined
and overshadowed by more heteronormative characters and themes. And then

(28:43):
finally the blockbuster age from two five to the present,
where cultural acceptance of queer people in queer communities in
South Korea as well as queer representation in media has
just kind of like been on the rise and been
more tolerated and accepted. So which like doesn't sound that

(29:04):
unlike the trend of queer representation and American Hollywood cinema
to be honest. Yeah, it's just a little slower, a
little more behind, right. Another trip that I really liked
that this movie because we've we've been covering a number
of query movies recently, and I think it was in

(29:27):
our Portrait of a Lady on Fire episode where we
discussed the trope that it's also a very white trope ordinarily,
but when there is a period piece with a lesbian
couple that it's all very doomed, it's all very like it.
It never ends well for the couple. The couple never
is able to survive the adversity, which is in some

(29:50):
ways at odds with many historical examples, but that is
the trend that movies have taken. And so when I
when I learned this was a period piece, I was like, Oh, no,
are we going to get another you know, doomed queer
couple that and and we don't they win? Like they win,

(30:10):
and I mean it was I guess it does kind
of demonstrate how going for scraps we still have to
be at times. But I was like, they their their
love survives, they overcome the adversity. It's not like, you know,
an ending where they're just like, I wonder what could
have been, Like they're on the damn boat having sex.

(30:32):
I was thrilled that that they ended up together at
the end, And because it's yeah, and in period pieces especially,
I feel like that is kind of rare. Yeah, I
think it legit shocked me given the historical context of
the of the movie, because you know, during that time,
it was like a lot of people died, so it

(30:53):
wouldn't it wouldn't have been strange to kind of see
that ending with the fact that it was a happy ending.
I mean, that was that was amazing. I was like, absolutely,
I'm here for it. Yeah. In the Catharsis of like
the two men dying, cut to two women just like

(31:13):
putting jingle bells in there for joying and having a ball.
I guess that's one literally no pun intended having a ball,
and oh god, the that. There were moments where I like,

(31:36):
this movie is just straight up smarter than me in
certain ways where I was like, oh, yeah, like I
know that the bell. I was like, the bell is
a metaphorical object. I can pick up on that much.
And so when they're fucking each other with the bells,
I'm like, this means something. I don't know what, but
definitely something. It's a metaphorical thing. And I and and sure,

(31:57):
and I totally understand. Yeah, I don't know what the
bells are a metaphor for, but I feel like I
don't need to know. I don't know. I every time
I'm just like, it's a metaphor for dot dot patriarchy.

(32:18):
I don't actually really know. Uh. I think the bells
they were in um one of the books that the
lady she read. I think they're just kind of like, oh,
I'm going to reclaim it. You know, it's not part
of this weird, creepy whatever thing that I'm doing from
my uncle. It's like our love things. That's what I thought.

(32:40):
I don't know, because it's like uses their uses a
weapon at one point, and okay, maybe I do understand. Oh,
but those are a different set of metal balls that
are used, like Okay, then I'm lost again. Yeah, I
think that was stove, that was right. The bells Okay, no,

(33:02):
they look similar, but no, but you're right, so young
where she was, because it's this difference of she's being
forced against her will to read these stories solely for
the sake of the pleasure of all of these men,
and then when we actually see her use those toys, materials,

(33:26):
the items, the bells, the bells, now, it's like they're
on her terms and she's not doing it for these
creepy men. She's doing it for herself. So it's like
a nice, just symbolic thing. I also noticed in that

(33:50):
scene when she's reading about because that's the only scene
I think where she's doing a reading from one of
those books that does involve two women, and we see
her like pat her little handkerchief, like pat down her
like perspiration, as if to say, Wow, that actually got
me excited because of all the other the other scenes

(34:12):
where she's doing readings about like a penis going into
a vagina, She's just like not interested, do not care,
and a penis going into a vagina in a pretty
a pretty mean way most of the time, like that
they're they're not they're very unpleasant stories that all these

(34:32):
guys are getting extremely aroused by. It's all like, I mean,
I guess that that is like so much of what
comes up in the movie is like the the men
of this story policing and controlling the women in their
lives and controlling their bodies sexually, controlling their bodies in
terms of like Lady Hideko is literally like trapped in

(34:55):
this castle kind of Princess Peach style, and it's it's
like about the extreme control of women's bodies and and
an attempt to control their minds which doesn't succeed. But yeah,
I don't know, I mean, it's it's so And and
then also in the case of the uncle, this really

(35:17):
volatile nature of like repeated intimidation of his wife who
eventually takes her own life, and and his niece. No
he it's implied that he kills her, but but it's
played off as though she killed herself. But in any case,
like it repeatedly like instilling them with fear and threats,

(35:38):
and then when they respond to that, they're framed as
hysterical in this very I mean, I guess you're like, well,
it's theties, of course that is happening. But um, it
was interesting seeing it framed the way it was, where
it was like even with that deception that they're like, oh,
she she took her own life, you know, because she

(36:00):
you know, she was suffering from something that we don't
really know what was going on, when it's like so
clear what is going on in this house where women
are just brutalized and if I don't know, I mean
it's it's it's really brutal in some um in some
sections of this movie, to the point where you know,

(36:21):
when the when the count and the uncle kind of
get their come up into at the end, you're like,
thank god, Uh yeah, especially with the reveal that the
uncle has been basically grooming her since childhood to read
this like erotic literature, that's straight up child sex abuse.

(36:42):
And so when he keels over and dies, I was like,
it's about damned time. Um, let's take another quick break
and then we will be right back, and we're back.
We we've referenced this already. But so Fingersmith was the

(37:07):
inspiration for this story. It sounds like it deviates kind
of significantly in the back half. But um, I was,
you know, pleasantly surprised, knowing nothing about the background of
this movie, to find that it had been adapted by
a text by a queer woman, by a Welsh author
named Sarah Waters, who wrote this in two thousand two.

(37:29):
And I thought that just I don't know all the
information on adapting this movie and adapting that story to
Japan and Korea in this time period. I I learned
a lot, having h having gotten you know, a piss
poor American education that this same this period of history

(37:49):
in Korea and Japan. I was not well versed in.
I knew kind of the main bullet points, but learning
more about the annexation of Korea and just the complete culture,
erasure and colonialism that was going on at this time
was not something that I was very well versed in.
And it doesn't sound like it was something that Sarah Waters,

(38:11):
a Welsh author, was very well first in as well,
and so there will link this in the description. But
it's just a very interesting adaptation story. Where Sarah Waters
was at first, um not sure whether Park Chun Wook,
who is the director of this movie and many other movies.
He's kind of has a reputation for being a hyper

(38:33):
masculine director, like he directs pretty like he directed Old Boy.
He directed all these like really male driven movies, and
so at first she was like, I don't does this
make sense. Once they like discussed collaborating and hester and
and he also wrote this script with female co writer

(38:55):
Chung I hope that I'm getting right Chung cho kieong um,
who he's worked with a number of times over the years.
So he had he had a female co writer and
they proposed this time shift, and that was what got
Sarah Waters on board. So I just I don't know,
it's it's it's a really cool story of and I

(39:17):
feel like this time period in the setting like fit
the stories so effortlessly and also kind of I mean,
based on what you're saying about the BBC adaptation, Caitlin,
sounds like it sort of expands the scope of what
the story is able to explore because it's you know,
not only is it examining class in a lot of ways,

(39:38):
and it's like examining queerness and it's examining patriarchy, but
it's also touching on this you know, extreme period of
colonialism and really aggressive cultural erasure in a way. It
sounds like the source material didn't because of where, where
and when it was set. So um, yeah, yeah, it's
just a really interesting story. Yeah. Like I was like,

(40:00):
turns out I know nothing about this period of history.
Let me read the Wikipedia page. And it's just like
in the US, we're just like not taught about this
period of time at all. Yeah, so, uh, this movie
inspired me to like learn about it. So I did
read the first several paragraphs of the Wikipedia page about it. Well,

(40:22):
we'll link to some resources in uh in the description
as well, if you like us got a very limited
shitty education the United States. Yeah, I just wanted to add, like,
I think one of the interesting things is, like, so
the brutality of the men, right, the men were pretty

(40:43):
terrible and they did pretty terrible things. But during this time,
you know, there was a lot of anti Japanese sentiment
obviously because of what was happening and I thought it
was really interesting because these two men are very pro Japanese, right,
they want, you know, doing all these things, but they're Korean,
and so it kind of showed the whole, you know,
in my personal opinion, it showed a whole like all

(41:05):
the Koreans who kind of portrayed, you know, our country
in a sense, we're worse than the Japanese people who
invaded our country. So I did find that that's a
very interesting framing of that from pac John because you know,
during this time it was such a you know, was
obviously about time, but kind of that shine through the

(41:26):
very you know, don't be this type of person during
this horrible time in which you know, this thing's happened.
So yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. There there's like that whole
conversation they have where it's like a reveal later in
the movie that the uncle has done the same thing
that the Count is in the middle of doing, which

(41:47):
is yeah, you know, saying their their Japanese when they
are not and being generally villainous. And but there's like
that whole conversation they have where the uncle is talking
about how he that Korea is ugly and Japan is beautiful,
and the Count says, oh, you know, that's interesting. I've
heard people say the exact opposite, and it's like the

(42:10):
I don't know, I mean, and again I'm I'm not
extremely educated in this period of history at all, but
just even opening this story to make room for discussion
about that, and it does seem like Park chinook Is
is making kind of a value judgment of of these
characters through their behavior outside of of the colonial history.

(42:34):
It's it's it's it's you know, I never want to
see someone's fingers chopped off by like a paper cutter. Uh.
I guess that's the end of the sentence. But you know,
it's like if it had to happen to someone, I'm like,
the Count is terrible, and and as the as the

(42:54):
story goes on, you just realize more more angles from
which he is terrible, and so when they take his
fingers off with a paper cutter, it's like, you know, yeah, okay, fine, fine,
I'll allow it. Yeah no, Uh, both the Count and
the uncle got what they deserved as far as I'm concerned,

(43:16):
because you know, they're both abusers, their manipulators. I mean,
we see a scene where the Count tries to sexually
assault Hittigo. These are awful, awful men, and so I
appreciate that we see toxic male behavior being punished because
they end up dying because the women were very clever
in their like orchestration of this scheme to get back

(43:41):
at them. And I thought that was really cool to see.
You often don't see toxic male behavior punished in movies.
So yeah, I just appreciated that a lot. And it
does seem like they really I mean, both of those
characters are leve viridging the most dominant advantage they have,

(44:03):
which is the fact that they're men. And it is
I feel like any you know, any empathy you could
generate for these characters, who are to an extent in
a really difficult situation as Korean men at this time
of intense colonialism, is completely undercut by the fact that
they're taking it out on the women around them, the

(44:25):
people who have less power than them, and elevating themselves
at the expense of the people who have less power.
And there's there were some like interesting moments I found
interesting with account where he says these things that sound
so cutting and cruel, but you can sort of understand
why he's saying them, even if you don't agree with it.

(44:46):
Where he's saying, you know, where I come from, it's
illegal to be naive, and sort of referencing the fact
that he's from the underclass and he's from he's Korean,
he's from a really oppressed group of people at this time,
and so you can understand why he would say that.
But what he's talking about is deceiving a Korean woman

(45:09):
and throwing her in jail essentially, and it's yeah, yeah,
it's almost like blaming her and it's like you shouldn't
have trusted anybody. Yeah, ever, right, Yeah, it's it's all
very fascinating and the yeah, the way that these really

(45:31):
terrible men in the movie are punished for their like
upholding of the patriarchy is very exciting to watch in
a way that doesn't really I mean, it kind of
happens in Fingersmiths, but like, again, the major change that
I really appreciate is the two women like realizing that

(45:54):
they're in love with the other. That kind of prompts
them to admit what's going on. Then they're like, yeah,
I'm upset that you tricked me, but also I was
tricking you, so I can't be that upset. But now
that we know what the real situation is, let's team up.
And now there's a third trickery happening against the count.

(46:20):
So I love a movie with tricks. It's exciting. Um,
should we talk a little bit more about the sex
scenes slash the mail Gaze. Yeah, let's get into where So,
like we mentioned, there have been mixed reviews about this

(46:42):
where some of the discussion around this film was how
the movie deconstructs or transcends the mail gaze. I think
more based on the events of the story and how
like these women team up and collaborate and take down
the men, rather than the sex scenes themselves. Because other

(47:04):
critics have been like, um, well, it is a movie
about lesbians with some graphic sex scenes that were shot
by a director and cinematographer who are both men, and
the sex scenes are really long and and quite graphic,

(47:27):
and you know, there's still male gaze involved because of
the people who are capturing this imagery and delivering it
to an audience. And then other people were like, but
what about the part of the movie where there's like
a shot from the point of view of Heidako's volva,

(47:50):
where like we just see Suki like leaning in with
her tongue out about she had a goal pro on
her LA is essentially the shot, and so it's like, well,
how could that be the male gaze when it's literally
from the point of view of a vagina. And then
so there's you know, there's a lot of sides to

(48:11):
this argument. I'm curious how the both of you feel
about this. I think, Okay, look, I think the sex
scenes were over the top. That's just my personal opinion.
I think it was a lot and very graphic and
almost like unnecessarily graphic, honestly, And I do agree. It's

(48:32):
a male director, it's a male cinematographer, so there is
a male gaze there especially. I don't know the director obviously,
but just kind of like how much do they really
know about how the sex scene should go, you know,
and like in other lgbt Q movies. So I'll say, yeah,

(48:53):
that's like my main criticism it is it's a lot.
It's definitely almost too much. And I think if you
didn't have it that graphic or whatever, it wouldn't have
taken away from the story whatsoever. So I think, yeah,
I think it was a little too much. I wasn't sure.
I mean I was interested to read through all the
different takes, and it's like, you know, if if you

(49:14):
loved the sex scene, that's great. I didn't. I mean,
I liked that there was a sex scene there. I
didn't have any issue with that because I feel like,
you know, very often, like we're talking about earlier, when
there's a lesbian relationship, it's all very like Wink wink
fade to black in mainstream movies, but the scenes are

(49:36):
very long. They're extremely long. The go pro shot through me. Uh,
he also get the same sex scene twice from like
two different points of view. I guess yeah. I mean,
knowing that it was directed and filmed by men, I

(49:56):
feel like kind of tells you what you need to know.
And I was also interested in This came from a
Guardian profile of Sarah Waters, who wrote Fingersmith at the
time The Handmaiden came out and kind of like clarified.
I was like, what is so essentially what it says

(50:17):
is in in the book, which we're not going to read,
but in in the book, I guess, uh, you know,
Sarah Waters very often writes lesbian romances in her work,
but a lot of what she's known for is just
talking about women's bodies very frankly, in a way that
like incorporates things like sweat and like pubic hair and

(50:42):
just things that are kind of a glossed over and
a lot of big movie sex scenes and present this
very idealized version of what lesbian sex looks like. And
I and that is like made clear in the story too,
where you know, like when Lady high Deco is reading this,

(51:03):
you know, pornographic literature, they're referencing the vagina repeatedly as
like hairless, smooth, like this mythic thing that those who
have vaginas are, Like, okay, sure, like it's somehow like
pearly white, made of jade, the jade gates, you know,

(51:25):
and they're like folds of like gore. You're like, okay,
but sparkles and shimmers and but there's also other stuff
going on. Um. And it seems like her work was
kind of known for just like talking about bodies in
that way that was like very sexual, but also about
actual bodies and not this like mythic view of what

(51:48):
bodies are. And I felt like the sex scenes in
this movie didn't really meet that where it's still felt
even though the other side of that came across clearly
that it's like listening to her half to talk about
this really unrealistic view of what a vagina looks like
day after day is clearly wearing on her and is

(52:09):
ridiculous and male gazy. The sex scenms, I feel like,
didn't really challenge that enough. I don't know, I don't know.
My personal opinion is that they were they were long. Yeah,
I'm like of two minds about it, where I think
it's cool that we do get more of a foray

(52:33):
into lesbian sex than you tend to see in mainstream movies,
just because of like our heteronormative society and so much
phobia around queer sex. There's just been a tendency to
shy away from it, or skirt around it, or just

(52:55):
not feature it, especially because when it's lesbian sex there
is double the focus on female pleasure, which is something
that even in hetero sex scenes and just again culture
at large, the idea of female pleasure is terrifying to

(53:17):
a large chunk of the population. So further to be,
this emphasis on female pleasure in the sex scenes is
cool and exciting, but the sex scenes linger on for
longer than we need, and ultimately they are by the
very nature of who is making this film shot through

(53:41):
the male gaze and interpreted through the male gaze, and
even sort of the way in which the like the
blocking of the sex scenes feels it's a lot. It's
it's just knowing there is a man on the other
side of the go pro it feels it's like, it
feels fetishy, the way some straight men are like, oh yeah,

(54:05):
getting it on, that's so hot. I agree, And I
feel like that is like another thing that it seems like,
I mean, just based on doing basic research on this
production team that Park Chinook very often collaborates with the
same group of people, and this is a cinematographer he

(54:25):
works with a lot. But it's like if again, it's
like when we talk about this with male directors all
the time, of like, if you are dead set on
adapting this story, then you need to be flexible in
who you're working with, and you need to like really
make sure you have people in the room who will
just be able to speak to the experience, because otherwise

(54:48):
there's going to be stuff that feels dissonant. I did
read an interview with the director in which he addresses
these sex scenes, and it seems like his general intention
was that he understood how like delicate of a thing
this would be to shoot, and he wanted to be

(55:10):
as considerate and respectful to the actors as possible, because
that's always something we're like, Okay, these actors have to
be naked in front of a bunch of people, they
have to be physically close with another actor simulating sex,
and depending on different factors, this has the potential to

(55:31):
be very uncomfortable for actors. So I found this interview
in which he it seems like, you know, he he
did his very best, although some of the answers are
funny where he's like, that day, we hired a woman
to be the boom operator for that day on set,

(55:51):
and it's like, well, is that the only circumstances where
you would hire a woman to be or boom operate?
But it seems like he was like fully aware of
the situation. He wanted to make everyone as comfortable as possible.
So there was like very minimal crew on set for

(56:13):
those scenes. The DP and the camera operator were not
on set that they were using like a remote controlled camera.
I hope there's like an intimacy coordinator or something of
that nature. Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, because
so if any listeners are not aware, if a movie

(56:37):
or TV production has a sex scene, ideally they will
hire what's called an intimacy coordinator, who is there to
advocate for the well being and safety of the actors
who participate in sex scenes or just like kind of
any other physically intimate scenes. Again, ideally a set will

(57:00):
of this person, but that's not always the case. And
as far as whether or not an intimacy coordinator was
present on this set, that did not get spoken of,
So I I am not sure. I really hope. So,
oh my god, if you're that naked, please have a
person who is your advocate there, that is I hope

(57:22):
he he just forgot to mention that person. Yeah, that
did not come up in the interview, but at least
it sounds like he made an effort. I didn't find
anything on how the actors felt about those scenes, about
you know, whether they were comfortable. I hope so. But yeah,

(57:45):
it's also sort of like, okay, if you have to
take so many leaps and bounds to make the shooting
of this safe for the actors. It's also a question
of like, Okay, do I like, does this absolutely you
need to happen this way? Or I feel like they're
I mean, in the erotic thriller genre in general, I

(58:08):
feel like sometimes it's like, I don't know, I'm generally
showing up for the thriller elements, and then if people
are fucking amazing, that's great, but that's not like what
what I'm like, what the bulk of the movie is. Um,
But yeah, I feel like that those seeds were like, Okay,

(58:29):
this is an erotic thriller, get it, especially because like,
I'm also interested on your both of your thoughts on
this as well. But to me, there's far more of
an emphasis in the movie on their sexual connection and
like their physical attraction than there is on like an
actual like what do they have in common? Why do

(58:51):
they like each other? I didn't get a big sense
of that. But also maybe I'm forgetting some stuff. I
do think. Yeah, I think there's more emphasis on the
sexual parts. I think with the emotional like aspect of it.
The part that sticks out to me is like the
time when they're when Suki is destroying all the books

(59:13):
and the paintings and whatnot, and she's like so angry
because she understands, you know, what has been happening. She
destroys everything, and the Lady Jadeko is just you know,
standing there, just like not fully sure on what to do.
She's just like, what is happening? I don't know. I
feel like that, Like on an emotional level, was like

(59:34):
I don't know. I felt that. I was like, oh,
that's really sweet because you know, they're kind of their
worlds are colliding in this moment where it's like she
kind of like is thinking, oh, I thought you were
this rich girl who doesn't really understand anything, but it's like, no,
you're you're victimized the way I'm victimized, just in different aspects,
you know. So I feel like that's kind of how

(59:54):
the world is collided in that sense. That's what That's
what I saw. That's the scene I remember. Yeah, I
felt a similar way where it's you know, I guess
that you learn more about their emotional connection in the
back half, where like part one definitely doesn't give you
everything you need, but also part one gives you a
completely false impression of who Lady Hideko is. Like I

(01:00:19):
feel like if we were just like all my notes
from part one was like, oh my gosh, like Lady
Hideko is on this like born sexy Yesterday thing going on,
and she's just like, I don't what is sex. I've
never heard of that, and you know, and and in
a way that I thought like the movie had fun
with later where they kind of poke fun at Suki

(01:00:39):
for being like, wow, this must just you must have
incredible instincts for being like, yeah, you're natural. That made
me laugh. Uh, But I I thought that, I mean,
I don't know, I felt like any relationship where they
just surprised each other and like, I don't know, I'm
I'm always like kind of a sucker for relationships like that,

(01:01:02):
and it is like, you know, kind of like definitely
a class story we've seen before. Let's say Titan Titan perhaps,
but where where you know, it's it's like they have
very rigid ideas of who this person is going to
be and they end up getting surprised by that person
having a lot more to them than they expected. So

(01:01:26):
I was on board for the love story. I I
got why they were drawn to each other as people,
and I think, you know, we definitely could have spent
more time with it um and with with them as
that relationship was building, but especially those like longer scenes
in part one when you reflect on them and you're like, oh,
like lady Hideko is playing four D chess and she

(01:01:49):
knows exactly what's going on, and even still she's like
falling for Suki. I don't know. I was on board
for the romance. I thought it was I thought it
was like a classic you know, star cross levers across
classes kind of thing. Sure, you just contrived in itself,
but like, I think we could have shortened those sex

(01:02:12):
scenes and given us like one or two more signifiers
of just like, oh, yeah, here's what they bond over,
here's the thing that they both like, or here's a
little thing that they have in common, because I don't
really I still don't have the strongest sense of that.
And it's one thing, you know, if a movie wants

(01:02:33):
to present this connection just as a sexual connection, like
obviously not every connection between people needs to be this deep, intimate,
long lasting love, but I feel like the movie frames
their connection as deep love. So I don't know, But
now I'm just picturing Titanic. If Titanic were like Billy
Zane and Rose collaborating to trick Jack Dawson into something.

(01:02:59):
But it turns out wait a minute, Rose and Jack
are collaborating to trick Billy Zane and get his fortune.
Everything remaps onto Titanic. It's just nature. Um, it's unavoidable.
And that's something that I also like, It's a trope
we talked about a jillion times, but relationships that are

(01:03:21):
founded on lies, you know, that was like I was
aware of very early in the movie. But again, I
feel like this movie kind of like finds its way
out of the trappings of that where the lies are
found out and they simply admit it and apologize to
each other and then like take action in a positive

(01:03:42):
direction where I feel like, you know, we've covered five
trillion movies at this point. That is like there's a
dare that involves a lie and it makes sense but
not really. And then at the end, the you know,
the person lying usually in this heterosexual relationship is like
Freddy Prince Jr. And he's like, I don't know, I
told a lie and I'm not even sorry and I apologize.

(01:04:06):
This movie, you know, like skirts, all of those things
where it is just everything is a lie at the beginning.
But then there's that great scene where uh Suki catches
Lady Hideco and they have this this just very emotionally
raw conversation. They're both crying, they're both being honest, and
then and then they singlehandedly destroyed the patriarchy at the end.

(01:04:30):
So there. Yeah, Also, I mean they're both victims of
this patriarchal structure. They're both they have a lot of
trauma that they have been subjected to. So yeah, I
mean it makes sense that they bond again. I just
I wish there was just to smidge more. There's also

(01:04:52):
that moment that I don't know in the different it
makes me want to like watch it back again because
I feel like this, like this movie does like give
you a lot back once you know what's going to
happen in the middle. But even the ways that like
their patriarchal structure influences their assumptions of each other. Where
at the beginning, like Suki, we hear her talking in

(01:05:15):
voiceover a lot, and she's talking about Lady Hideko as
if she's an object at the beginning, and she's like,
you know, ladies are handmaidens, dolls, and like she is
you know, being encouraged to think of her in this
very particular way and being encouraged to think of her as,
you know, someone who is not as smart as her.
And then in the second half, we're being encouraged to

(01:05:37):
think of Suki as someone who is not as smart
as Lady Hideko based on how she's been conditioned to view,
you know, poor women and and poor people in general.
And then in the third part you realize, uh, guess
what neither was true? And it was somewhere in the middle,
and and they're on the both geniuses, both geniuses, and

(01:05:58):
and they're on about I really liked Suki had this fun,
like Aladdin style introduction to who she was that I
thought was very exciting, where I like the the mythos
of Suki's life where she's like, I am the world's
greatest thief, and I was like, oh my god, she's Aladdin.

(01:06:20):
This is exciting. And that was I don't know if
that has anything to do with anything, but I wrote down,
Suki equals Aladdin and she falls in love with her.
Princess Jasmine um Hitiko teaches Suki how to read. So

(01:06:42):
women helping other women, women, uplifting women, you love to
see it. Although reading for Hideko was a prison for
a long time. She was to read for evil. It's true,
and that's why we don't read books. And that's why
on the Bectel cast we don't read books because reading,
actually women reading is a prison dangerous. We've been saying

(01:07:07):
this for years. At this point, it's dangerous. I mean
to call back to another Disney movie. According to Guston
in Beauty and the Beast, women who read it gives
them ideas and then they start thinking, and that is dangerous.
It's dangerous. Um, does anyone, Does anyone have anything else

(01:07:29):
they would like to talk about? Ah, that's all I had. Yeah,
I just wanted to add. So there's in the second
half of the movie. There's a scene we've seen a
couple of times from two different points of view where
Suki is like standing in as just like a model
for the art, like the painting that Hideko is doing

(01:07:52):
of Suki. And you see a quick reveal of her
drawing of Suki, and it's the funniest thing in the
world because it's so bad. It's really bad. But they
it's like what Leonardo DiCaprio was actually drawing. In the
Satanic he's like, um, circled dot dot smile, and then

(01:08:16):
you just get like the quickest glimpse of it. But
it's not really played as a joke. But I like,
I burst out laughing every time I see it because
it's so funny. Because then because first you see so
the council thing is that he's been training for years
to be a forger, so he like he's a talented artist,
Like he's a really good artist. He's really good at

(01:08:38):
creating these forgeries of these books and like the art
in the books, so he knows what he's doing. And
you see like his little sketches and paintings of Suki
and you're like, oh damn, Like he's great, and then
it pans over to Lady Jideko's drawing. It's the funniest

(01:08:59):
thing in the world. It's really bad. It's um, I
guess the last serious thing I wanted to talk about.
And I don't know a whole lot about Park chan
wooks filmography. I've seen Old Boy, but it's been several years,
so I don't remember it that well. So I don't
really know much about him as a figure, and sort

(01:09:20):
of like his his background and stuff like that. But
one of his reasons for wanting to make this movie
is that his intention was to normalize queer relationships in cinema,
and you know, that's not something that most straight male
directors are concerned with. So I feel like it's a

(01:09:42):
it's a classic step in the right direction kind of
move where we've talked about I think a lot of
instances like this where the attempt is perhaps in perfect
in some ways. But the endorsement of a you know,
super fame mis director, and I mean not even the internship,
but like a super famous director prioritizing representation of queer

(01:10:07):
people and of a lesbian relationship in their work is
like a good step in the right direction. Does it
mean that everything was represented perfectly and in a way
that made total sense? Usually not in those cases, because
most of these hot shot directors are normally straight men,
and they're you know, and there, and therefore they're fucked

(01:10:30):
in terms of their worldview. But but it usually indicates,
I feel like, at least historically, it usually indicates that
better movies and better representation is close behind, or I hope.
So yeah, yeah, And this movie being a success and
critically acclaimed hopefully paves the way for queer women in

(01:10:54):
South Korea to be able to tell their own stories next,
let's hope. So yeah, so the movie does pass the
Bechdel test. Hell yeah, a lot of women scheming, a
lot of women lying to each other in a way
that passes the Bechtel test. And as far as our

(01:11:16):
nipple scale, our scale of zero to five nipples, based
on how the movie Fair is looking at it through
the lens of intersectional feminism, I'm tempted to give this
like a four point to five. Just the narrative that
unfolds of ultimately like women teaming up two overthrow and

(01:11:44):
manipulate their oppressors the way that they had been manipulating
them and coming out on top being allowed to like
be together on this ferry and then hopefully after that
for however much time they want to spend together, if
they live, you know, the rest of their lives together.

(01:12:04):
And yeah, just like all the commentary on the patriarchy
and the smashing of that patriarchy is just very satisfying
and cathartic to watch. Um, the sex scenes are pretty
male gazy, they're pretty fetish. She a bit gratuitous, will say,

(01:12:28):
you know, it always kind of begs a question was
this the right director to tell this story or you know,
like is this is there the right person to be
shooting these scenes, and like how much consultation was actually done,
et cetera. So that's where the movie loses some points.
So I think I'll land on a four and a quarter.

(01:12:49):
That might be too generous, but I just think this
movie rules, So I'm gonna go easy on it, and
I will give my nipples to try Kim who plays
Suki Minhi Kim who plays Hiteko, the screenwriter John s Kion,
and I'll give one to the aunt a tragic fate

(01:13:14):
and she she deserves something. I'll give my quarter nipple
to that amazing drawing. I'm gonna go I think're gonna
go there. We when we get into the fractions to
get so messy. I'm gonna I'm gonna go three point
seven five because ultimately this movie is directed and shot

(01:13:37):
by straight guys, So I I can't Yeah, I I
don't want to go too much higher than that. That said,
A period piece that has a female co writer based
on the work of famous lesbian writer. It's a period
piece where the lesbian couple stays together at a happy

(01:13:58):
ending for them, we see the their patriarchal structure, um,
at least in the terms of the two of them
crumble and is very cool and very rare in terms
of lesbian period pieces unfortunately. Uh So, I think that's
definitely something worth praising. The movie itself fucking rocks. Like,

(01:14:22):
if you haven't seen it, it's so fun. I wish
I had watched it with someone else so we could
have like, like all the right moments. But it's just
it's it's a really fun movie. It's very accessible if
you have Amazon Prime. Hail Basos. Sorry, we can legally
have to say that we love what we we love

(01:14:44):
our bald king. Uh but um, yeah, I mean I
think that there there are like little this The sex
scenes are male gazy, and they are quite long, and
there are I don't know, I mean, this is sort
of inherent to the kind of story that this is.
But anytime, it's like, the patriarchy is two people and

(01:15:04):
you know them. So if you can just get rid
of these two people, right, you're free. Like it's it's
fun in a fantasy way. But I'm always just like, Okay,
but what about the rest of it. Yeah, it's not
so much smashing the patriarchy. It's more smashing too much
those two guys, you know, which is also very hard.
But you know whatever, I'm getting very in the weeds there. Um,

(01:15:27):
I guess you know, I'll go for for a four,
but I can't go higher because when it's when it's
two straight guys, it's just like, okay, so this is
a step, but more please. Uh So I'll go for
and I'm giving them all to that go pro. So yeah,
what would what would you give it? Um? I think

(01:15:50):
I'd give it a solid for because you know, it's
a good story. It's it's great that it exists in
this world from you know, Korean stuff like that. But
just yeah, the sex scenes are so long. They're so long,
and I was just like, it's too long, and we
had to see multiple angles of it, and um, you know,

(01:16:14):
I feel like, you know, you could have shortened it
just a little bit, not like, you know, get rid
of it, but shortened it. But you know, I like
the story being told in that time of the occupation. Um.
And you know, their love actually you know, happy ending
they both get to be together. You know, the men
they die and everyone is happy who's alive? So I

(01:16:37):
give it a solid for amazing. Yeah, well, thank you
so much for joining us on this journey. Thank you
for having me. Of course. Do you have anything you'd
like to plug a social media or anything like that.
I do not. I do not have social media. It's

(01:16:57):
probably it's better that way. Wow, our bravest guess yet,
that is the healthiest thing I've ever heard in my
entire life. Congratulations. Yeah, Unfortunately, we're still on social media.
You can find us at the Bechtel Cast on Twitter

(01:17:17):
and Instagram or Bechtel Cast on Twitter and Instagram. Oh
my god. You can go to our patreon ak Matreon
at Patreon dot clam dot colmom slash Bechtel Cast. This
this month on the on the Patreon, we're doing movies
that have animals in them. I forget why, but we are.
And so if you want to hear episodes about Stuart

(01:17:39):
Little and Babe and Babe the Pig, it's only five
dollars a month and you can hear whatever that is.
I mean, Jamie, it's famously Animal June. What are you
talking about? It's yeah, it's Animal June, which we've observed
for many, many years. There's all so our T public store,

(01:18:01):
T public dot com, slash the Bechdel Cast where you
can get all of your merchandising needs. And uh with that,
I'm glad that we all stopped lying to each other
and tricking each other. Let's get on a boat to Shanghai.
Let's get out of here. Let's do it. Bye bye